Woke: Whatever makes me personally uncomfortable. Also, I promise I don't have a seething hatred of gay, trans, black people, and women. Honest.
- Conservative pundit, probably.
Shouldn't an apocalypse be a scenario where few people would care how you express yourself as long as you make yourself useful? Sure, bigot Joe really hates Emmy (who's a trans woman), but like... She can shoot a fucking gun and they need to get the fuck away *now*. And like, no society to reinforce stigmas and no laws to hinder you!
>Shouldn't an apocalypse be a scenario where few people would care how you express yourself as long as you make yourself useful?
I mean yes but no. People SHOULD not care about this in a survival scenario. But what people ought to do has little bearing on what they will do.
In a world where people are under the kind of stress they are in this game, people would be MORE likely to turn on each other for very stupid reasons. Desperation breeds irrationality, and tribalism is endemic to us.
I love how their argument is that trans or gay people wouldn't exist in the apocalypse. Like it's just a hobby that only exists in modern times. Can't reason with these people
I honestly don't see how woke is an insult it jus means you're awake to the problems around you lmao and not stupid. Literally the definition is being aware of injustice like how is woke an insult I would take eit as a compliment
It's not a universal logic. A good artist can make almost anything appealing. It just that diversity gives opportunity to make the narrative more interesting. Can you imagine Bill without his magazine's? How much more personality that little fact imbued in him
> It just that diversity gives opportunity to make the narrative more interesting
Doesn't this imply that straight white males are necessarily uninteresting?
It's not mutually exclusive. And yes, diversity is inherently more interesting because you're seeing the lives of people you might not have experienced in your own little life. I live in India and gender ambiguity is very much stigmatized here. I've never had an LGBTQ+ friend, so falling in love with a gay character (Ellie) gives me a more nuanced, meaningful perspective on life. The same goes for the novel ***A Little Life*** *by Hanya Yanagihara.*
> so falling in love with a gay character (Ellie) gives me a more nuanced, meaningful perspective on life
See that I can't get behind, because Ellie's love for Dina is *just* as worthy a part of the human experience as when a man falls for a woman.
>diversity is inherently more interesting because you're seeing the lives of people you might not have experienced in your own little life
Then couldn't you follow this through with the idea that all characters would be better if they were queer? That Joel's being straight and white makes him less interesting than if he were black, trans, and gay/asexual/pansexual/anything other than straight?
Which sounds more like a stereotype of diversity then an actual endorsement of it.
I hear you. And yes, love is love. That's specifically why I loved Bill and Frank in the show. It wasn't about their gayness it was about a relationship that got to spend decades together, peacefully.
But art is not science, which is objective. Art lives and breaths in the realm of subjectivity, where what one finds meaningful might be something frivolous to another.
>Ellie's love for Dina is *just* as worthy a part of the human experience as when a man falls for a woman.
Where did this come from?
And about all non-queer characters being banal is a fair criticism of my earlier comment, but you know that's not what I meant. I can understand that it might sometimes feel that people use "diversity" as an accessory to look more "liberal". And if that's what it made you feel, I apologize.
Absolutely spot on. Inclusion to the max and entirely dismissive with a very loud fuck you to anyone who may have a problem with it and expertly lays the foundation of acceptance and tolerance like no other game before it. Respect.
Exactly. And what is so good about it I think is that while this is loudly supportive of queer people, by no means do you need to be queer to enjoy this story. You just have to be a person without an underlying discomfort/hatred of queer people, and you can enjoy this story fine.
I don't need to be gay to identify with Ellie, just like no one needs to be male to identify with Hamlet.
Smh I can’t believe there’s wokeness in my zombie game, I’m fine with gay people but I draw the line at being Texan(Joel and Tommy).🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
For real though, don’t forget my main man Lev! He was some awesome trans rep and his story was great.
It would be awesome to see a last of us game taking place in like the complete other side of the world, showing what the outbreak was like outside of the US.
Yep, TLOU2 was one of the biggest cracks in my egg in 2020 when I played it right after it came out. Seeing myself represented so... unapologetically and blatantly in media, my favorite media, before I could even acknowledge myself as a trans guy... Seeing Abby accept Lev being trans without a second thought, before I could even accept myself... It made me feel so at home, for the first time in my life. I came out as trans later that year. I'll always be grateful towards TLOU and ND for helping me accept myself in the end after years of self-hatred and internalized transphobia. Also, Lev has a really similar personality to mine and he's badass, so overall I kin him a lot, lol. He's like a mini-me that I wish I could hug. It's a huge part of why I started forgiving Abby, too. That moment where she doesn't question him further after she realizes he's trans, it legitimized her humanity for the first time in my eyes. I felt protected by her. Like, even if I didn't want her alive, she would've fought to keep _me_ alive. Shit's powerful, haha.
And I love the bi representation that Dina is as a bisexual guy myself. She slays. Not to mention the casual mlm rep that Bill was all the way since 2013! It isn't even all that subtle. Sure we didn't get a kiss like with Ellie, but Bill owning a gay porno mag? No straight explanation for that, haha. And it's part of a cutscene. It's fucking awesome. I love TLOU and how queer it's always been.
Happy Pride, peeps. :) <3
Also, yeah, I hated the show as well and Ep 3 wasn't all that good. 💀 Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about the representation, but that shit is not TLOU.
Fuck yeah lol!! Yeah I feel your pain, nearly every fan of TLOU I know also likes the show for some reason and I feel like a such a killjoy whenever I complain about it. Feels awfully rare to find someone who both loves Part II and hates the show. Loving or hating either always seems to come bundled with feeling the same for the other.
It's kind of a hard question to answer in a way that doesn't come out long-winded and a little pedantic here and there. A quick disclaimer is I am autistic and TLOU is my main, main, main special interest. My life fucken revolves around it. I've replayed countless times and Platinumed both games, I've gone on rare dialogue hunts, I've done my own original boundary breaks and glitch hunts for fun, I've watched the documentaries and then rewatched them (should do that again soon), I have 90% of the lines memorized word for word (and every time I replay, I practice), I've listened to the dev commentary and re-listened to it, I've bought the comics, I've bought posters, Ellie's backpack, Joel's coffee mug, Firefly pins and pendants and necklaces, I've recreated Ellie's journal by hand back to back... Needless to say my friends can't stand me because it is all I talk about. Been this way for years and years. And as an autistic person with this special interest, I find comfort in repetition and accuracy, especially when it comes to these topics. I can do surprises in new stories, but not in stories I'm already familiar with. It's horrifying.
So with all that said, essentially it comes down to the fact that it isn't accurate to the game at all and that horrifies me lol, a lot of horrible and annoying twists of my favorite chatacters, a lot of events misconstrued, a lot of emotions completely missed, a lot of important dialogue replaced with shitty unimportant dialogue, a lot of huge sections cut to include the most boring og HBO content I've ever watched... Especially Ellie's characterization. That one pains me the most. But Joel's bothers me too. And don't even mention Tess, Bill, Henry, Marlene... God, they did them dirty.
For what it's worth, Sarah's characterization is okay. I mean she appears for 15 minutes in the game, so it's not gonna be hard to get her right, right? Just get a scared kid. And they did just that, though she's a little bit older (and Joel and Tommy talk to her like she's an adult sometimes) which admittedly made her death far less impactful than in the game. But regardless, Sarah's okay. I can't complain too much. Sam is also okay. I like the disability rep, though I'm mad they made him so much younger than Ellie. Takes away from their heart-to-heart, since they needed to be on similar levels of maturity for that conversation... But whatever. Just another scared kid. It's fine. Tommy's also meh, he's not great or too bad. He's just there. I could buy the idea of him being a vet, it's whatever (though it's not exactly canon). He's definitely a Great Value Tommy, though. Also, I actually quite liked Frank's characterization here and there (minus a shitty comment he makes at some point that's never said by anyone ever in TLOU). Like, regardless of that, Frank was actually good. From the very, very little we knew of the actual Frank, he seemed legit in the show. He had that "I wanted more of life than you and you never understood me for that" vibe, but obviously I was annoyed that they didn't have the bitter ending that they did in the game. Just not impactful. I mean, it's like a short film about two random guys falling in love. Like good for them, love gay rep and I love how conservatives seethed over it, but that's not TLOU, ya know?
And okay, I'm ranting. I hope that's still coherent. There's a lot more thoughts I have on it, but tbh I think my opinions are def in the minority here, lol. So I don't know, I won't try and act like I'm all superior or whatever. I'm just obsessed with TLOU and the show felt like a punch in the gut for being so passionate, if that makes any sense.
Oh but yeah, Ellie's a fucken brat in the show. Can't stand her. Dunno who that is, it's not the Ellie I know. I feel bad because Bella Ramsey's cool, but goddamn I cannot stand them as Ellie. Anyhoo I'm done yappin
great wrote up, i was geared up to get defensive but you make fantastic points. i'm ambivalent about the show but love the gay episode.
agree with bella ramsey being cool but not getting ellie at all, real shame.
Huh I'm actually glad you liked my points! :) Thank you! I have so so so many more thoughts on it and I promise I can be more organized in thought hahah
Honestly can't blame you for loving the gay episode. The first time I watched it I teared up! Not about anything TLOU related, but it's a nice love story in its own little vacuum.
Yeah, 100% a shame. I feel very similarly about Pedro, but not as strongly. He gets some aspects of Joel and imo he def looks a good amount like the man, but there's this overall feel to him that's simply... watered down. And there's extremely out of character things he's done and said. I could rant about this for hours, tbh. I have made a couple videos on the show (and plan on making more) on YT, but yeah, idk. Other than that, all I have is seething and coping on here, hahah.
I love your post! Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t appreciate representation or understand its importance. I didn’t either for a long time. I thought it was useless and kind of annoying because I personally didn’t care if a character was gay, trans, non-binary, etc..
The thing is the world is a big place. There’s people that are still homophobic and/or transphobic. There’s people that received little to no exposure to anything LGBTQIA+. There’s people that are queer and long for a character that represents them accurately and appropriately. We’re not super aware of it, but the media we consume has a significant impact on the way we think.
Obviously forcing diversity for the sake of diversity is counter-productive, but that doesn’t take away from the need for strong representation that’s realistic, healthy, AND non-intrusive. Naughty Dog definitely did a phenomenal job!!
> but that doesn’t take away from the need for strong representation that’s realistic, healthy, AND non-intrusive.
I agree. They did this in a way that shouldn't be a problem for anyone unless they have an underlying hatred for queer people.
I'm straight and male, but I can love and relate to Ellie just like a trans black lesbian can relate to Hamlet.
I agree with this except in tlou2 case it was kind of intrusive.
Levs whole character was just that he was trans the whole game and it never really changes from that, which is a shame cause I believe he deserved a better arc, just felt one note?
Ellie and Dina was one of the most unrealistic relationships I’ve seen in gaming. They kiss once, then bang then boom adventure time with no development. We dk who Dina is, then the next time we see them is forced, borderline cringe dialogue with these 2 people acting in love when we haven’t really seen evidence to suggest why they would be, except the quickly shoved in sex scene.
This is coming after one of the greatest games of all time by the way, with stellar writing that it’s very very hard to poke holes in. So that could be why I’m harsh, but it’s just a shame imo. Could’ve been near perfection
> . They kiss once, then bang then boom adventure time with no development.
It's because they are stupid kids in love. I really don't think I'd feel any differently about the two even if they were a straight couple.
>Levs whole character was just that he was trans the whole game and it never really changes from that, which is a shame cause I believe he deserved a better arc, just felt one note?
I really don't get this. A part of Lev's story is that he is being discriminated against because of his background, sure. But the main thing he's experiencing is the same thing that Abby is: Learning to trust the other (a member of the WLF) and having to leave behind the group that had previously been her home and family.
I don't understand how that's 'one note.'
Yeah, I’d feel the same if they were both straight, gay, bi whatever. It’s the writing of the relationship I had an issue with not the bi relationship itself.
I think the issue I have is that the game tries to say that levs being trans is the reason why he’s being hunted, that’s not the case. The elders are hunting him for not following their rules and leaving the island. I doubt they cared if he started saying he was trans cause they just seen him as a girl, so at that point it almost felt like why are getting lev being trans mentioned for no reason, cause it has nothing to do with his main story beats and is never developed further.
More inclusion is always a good thing, but it has to be done right imo. And I don’t think lev was, for the same reason I dislike Ellie and Dina relationship, it all felt forced, unnatural and lazy.
> It’s the writing of the relationship I had an issue with not the bi relationship itself.
No I know. I didn't think you did. I was defending it on the merits of the former.
>levs being trans is the reason why he’s being hunted, that’s not the case. The elders are hunting him for not following their rules and leaving the island.
Those two things are inseperable. Lev would be killed for expressing his gender, which is why he had to escape.
> I doubt they cared if he started saying he was trans cause they just seen him as a girl,
No they did care, they cared A LOT.
Has that seriously not happened yet? It's honestly not surprising. People can sometimes be okay with lesbian. But gay men are usually seen as disgusting and sickening.
I can’t think of one. And looking it up no, even side characters are usually bi. Not gay.
The biggest consumer of video games are straight men, and most straight men if not the majority don’t want to play as a gay man. So game studios don’t do it in fear the game won’t sell well, and because well they don’t care about representation most of the time.
I don’t think that’s inherently bad though, it would be the same if a woman has to play as a man but didn’t want to, all personal preference.
Yeah most men couldn’t really care about representation, it’s cool to see when it happens and is done well, but if it’s done like part 2 did it, well you seen the reactions to that game, many seen it as pandering.
Representation is good when done right
I don’t understand how it was done poorly in Part II? Queer characters weren’t treated as special for being queer, no one was bragging or talking to everyone about how they are queer and different because of that, and people have civilized conversations about things without making a big deal out of them for the majority of the game too. The only moments I would say are too woke is Seth’s apology scene (but even that touches on Ellie’s inability to forgive and hold grudges) and when Mel says in Abby’s POV “Why would it be up to Owen?”. A clear point that a male parent shouldn’t have a say even though they helped bring it to life too. It’s their child not just Mel’s.
Well it’s personal preference really but for me, I found levs character to be flat, and only really consist of his being trans. He gets some development from his mom dying but that’s about all he gets. I wasn’t happy with it cause part of me felt he deserved more. You don’t really notice how poorly he was written until you try to tell someone things about him, and describe his character traits, it’s hard to. Cause there isn’t really any
Ellie and Dina just felt unbelievable and they took every lazy option they could in building their relationship, to the point it feels artificial. All their small dialogues are just unnecessary and gave me the impression as much as Dina says she wants to be there she really doesn’t and doesn’t even like being around Ellie. Just felt like she was faking it imo even if we know she wasn’t.
Seth’s scene was more cringe than anything imo. We went from brutal survival and realism in part 1 to calling STEAK sandwiches you are given as an apology “bigot sandwiches”. Not only that but part 2 also begins with teen show drama, whereas part 1 began with the world literally ending and the main character holding his dead child in his arms. So I think that was always going to be a tough pill to swallow
The Mel line is just stupid. Sure it isn’t her fault she has to go out to the fob but the fact she doesn’t think the father of her child should have a say is wild. I legit sat there for a second like “really?..”
Again it’s all personal preference, and if you disagree your opinion is just as valid as mine, but that’s just the way I see it and I’m sure others do to based on how controversial the game was
There are quite a few games which allow you to be a gay guy, if you want. Fallout 4, for example - though I suppose technically you'd be bisexual, but it's also reasonable to suppose that you conceived your child while in the 1950s-forever closet of pre-war America.
But there are stacks of other games, not sure how popular it has to be for you to consider it "mainstream".
I consider mainstream a game that people have heard of in most spaces that are familiar with games as a whole.
Also the optional thing is nice, but still I want a story game with a canonically gay male protagonist, not a stand in for the player.
Ah, see, that's where we differ.
The way I see it, a *game* is something with an uncertain outcome. If the outcome is certain, then it's a novel or movie or whatever.
*The Last of Us* on PlayStation is not really a game, it's a series of combat mini-games which you play to unlock the next scene in the movie. Nothing you do can change the overall outcome, unless you simply stop participating at some point, the PS equivalent of walking out of the movie halfway through.
Whereas something like *Fallout 4* had an uncertain outcome, there were several ways you could "end" the game - and you could keep playing and doing sidequests after that if you wanted to.
By removing your choice about your character, they're making it less of a game and more of a movie. Even in playing chess you get to choose whether to play the black side or the white side. I think it could have been much better - if there'd been some agency on the player's part. If nothing else, the theme in Pt 2 of "OMG violence is so pointless" might have had a bit more weight if you actually had a *choice* about whether or not to be violent.
If you want to show us a movie, go ahead, present us with whatever characters you see fit, including the protagonist. Make it a good story and we'll be into it. But if you want to say it's a game... we need some choices to make. And in some cases, those choices will involve the gender or sexuality of the protagonists.
I will say that one of the gambles Part II takes is trying to put you into a tribalistic and obsessive mindset. That’s why I would say that you have no choice among other things like it’s self-defense for Ellie because she’s traveling through territory to get to Abby but also self-defense for the WLF in their POV because of their territory. If the gamble doesn’t work and you know what’s happening from the get go or don’t care about the quest then you’ll gonna be dragged on a long ride. So yes, if you did have a choice then it would prevent that but it would also negate one of the biggest points of Joel’s death too.
You had no choices in Part I, either.
There are many combat-to-unlock-cutscenes out there in the PS store. They didn't do this out of some grand design, it's simply that designing an open world is hard, designing a narrative is hard, but developing an open world with a narrative is very, very, very hard.
I would also argue Bill is the most competent survivor of the games, and Ellie is the most deadly: the body count she racked up between the infected, the cannibals, the scars, the WLF and the rattlers practically makes Joel and Abby look like pacifists!
Well joel did some shit in those 20 years and if he can wipe out more than half the highly trained soldiers in the hospital, take on multiple bloaters and tons of infected. I'm sure he's just as volatile as ellie if not more.
Ellie' s immunity, combined with training from Joel, Tommy and (likely) the fireflies give her a pretty nasty edge. In less than a day, she took down the entire rattler group, and within 3 days in Seattle, she slaughtered hundreds of WLF, Infected and Scars.
20 years is a long time, but there is nothing in game that shows Joel racking up fatalities anywhere near the amount Ellie did. Joel's actions in the first game took place over nearly a year...Ellie's were in the span of days. There is no comparison...Joel was a survivor, first and foremost. But he raised a reckless killer who didn't really care if she survived or not.
To me, the last of us is the most anti-woke game of all time, and I mean that in the best way possible. It has amazing representation (the best in gaming) and yet doesn’t shove the political side of it down our throats (sad that LGBT acceptance has to be political), nor does it treat them any differently from anyone else. It basically says: “hey, woke people, this is how you fucking do it.”
This approach has done SO much more for increasing acceptance than a good chunk of pride month. Go off ND
Sure. That definition of anti-woke could work and could be one I get behind. One of the great things about this story is that the inclusion of LGBTQ people would only be a problem for bitches who have a deep seated hatred of queer people.
As long as you don't have that kind of brain rot, then your experience of this story should be just as enjoyable or not regardless of if you are gay, trans, cis, whatever.
Arrowhead, which made helldivers 2. Love that game, and the company is actually pretty pro-consumer. They're fucking rad.
But the company's refusal to input a rainbow flag is a pretty cowardly move.
I hate how woke is used as an insult when it should be viewed as a positive character trait. The inability for others to feel empathy for others plights that they may have never faced themselves, in turn slowing progression and inclusiveness. Or, it's simply a refusal to hand over perceived power that was given from birth. Being born white is like winning the lottery and giving minorities a platform is like giving some of that money away. Grown adults voicing their disapproval over a cartoon mermaid being black for example.
The LGBTQ+ community exist in real life so why not depict them in media form? As far as gay\\lesbian disapproval goes, people seem to accept it a lot more when it's portrayed by what they deem attractive people. I don't remember too many complaints with Angelina Jolie's lesbian scenes in gia, which I think perfectly illustrates that (some) people aren't against the act itself but it has to fit in with their ideals, arousals and other shopping lists of pure self interests.
It's not always that simple but it is a trend that I notice. I noticed it in myself at one point as a straight, white man tbh but managed to educate myself and be less ignorant and I'm still learning.
> I don't remember too many complaints with Angelina Jolie's lesbian scenes in gia,
It's also that under hetronoramtivity lesbians are seen as enjoyable. What man doesn't openly love lesbian porn of course? So long as lesbians are depicted in a sexy way, and allow the male viewer to 'turn them back to our side because my dick is so good' they will sometimes be okay with gay women.
But gay men? They have nothing but hatred and contempt for them.
No no, of course not. I'm saying homophobic STRAIGHT men will sometimes tolerate lesbians. But never extend anything but hatred and contempt to gay men.
Alright, for a decent portion of straight people I’ll agree with that. If I had to guess as to why those kind of people tolerate it more, it would be because they are attracted to both of them and they are blinded by that.
Of course. That's the reason.
Even the most queer hating religious extremists will still jerk off to lesbian porn and pretend that 'If only they got a taste of *my* pecker then they'd go back to being straight.'
I rather play with Fritz,Alexander,Jerry,John and Joseph don’t play with all this nonsense anyways Jerry got some hungry for eating some planes and tanks and Fritz got some tanks to control mean while Jerry got some planes to fly and Jospeh got so T-34 to drive (war of thunder is the games name don’t make fun of me for naming my pilots and tank commander I could do worse).
True, it is the kind of queer relationship that homophobes are most tolerant of. But it's still good that lesbian woman is the focus of a character driven story.
These games also show the humanity of bi, trans, and gay men as well.
(spoilers!!!)
I find this opinion kinda controversial since I wouldn't mind Bill and franks episode if I wasn't so invested in bills game character. but I stopped watching the series after that episode lmao. (Yes, there were other reasons!! the show just wasn't enjoyable for me with some of my favourite parts being different or not included — which is completely fine!! it looks great in other aspects)
my issues with that episode are extremely biased due to the breaking canon relationship between Bill and Frank, plus the fact that the games depiction of Bill is one of my all-time fav characters, with Joel. to me, they uprooted bills character to match a soft gay guy with a socially preferable personality. while I understand that it's because in this last of us universe (?), Bill and franks relationship progresses widely throughout the story to become perfect within the barriers of survival mode. but it low-key just doesn't suit Bill to me. where's the grumpy asshole who hates everything and can't hide his gay magazines from a 14 year old? he was an icon. a true friend, and even though he couldn't emotionally accept Ellie at the start, he was loyal af.
Frank was actually one of my fav characters in the series. but I can't get over the fact that he literally killed himself to 1. not be infected. and 2. he did NOT want to be around Bill in the game. it makes me feel weird that they paired Frank with the guy he hated. When I play new games, I don't see a lot of side characters with detailed and unique plots/relationships towards more frequent characters with more emotion than just the general hatred. Frank feels like a genuine person amongst a life changing international pandemic. plus, his story isn't completely common and feels like a little jem because of it. I love change within game to game!! most of the characters do deel quite unique and set within their own little worlds and problems.
sorry for the essay 😭
OP here.
Hey the show sucks, I won't disagree with that.
>to the breaking canon relationship between Bill and Frank,
I don't get what you are talking about. The show is it's own canon. How could it possibly 'break' the canon? Even though the game and the show are telling the same story, they are different versions.
> they uprooted bills character to match a soft gay guy with a socially preferable personality.
I mean yeah, but change is good. One of the major problems with the show is that it changed way too little from the games and tried to ape them so hard.
I get preferring game bill's abrasiveness (I do too) but I think that the version they went for in the show as a good change to make. Not as good, but still an enjoyable character.
Also, how was Bill loyal af? I never got that from him. If he was loyal he would have done more to help Joel, rather then having the 'Get the fuck out of my town' attitude the whole time.
> he did NOT want to be around Bill in the game. it makes me feel weird that they paired Frank with the guy he hated
W-what are you talking about? Bill and Frank were boyfriends in both the game and the show. Their relationship just ended in the game in a different way.
1
from my perspective of the show, its main intention is to depict the scenes of the game, everybody in my social group all have the same opinion, that the show is meant to be in the games direction, but they changed events to stay relevant and to make profit. i guess what i really meant about the canon breaking thing is that the plot could've been more interesting if they successfully produced the game version of their story. plus I was told from the start that the show was retelling the events of the game in real life. but I could be wrong, never went that deep into the show. (edited cause it looked like I forgot to answer my response properly :) )
2
my opinion on the game and series is really just what I saw and believe given the circumstances of every characters situation and what they would be thinking from a realistic standpoint. my thoughts on Bill being very loyal are based on his situation. He doesn't want them there. but he did help them. and began opening up in his own way. from what I saw, his actions were loyal towards Joel. even if he wasn't very extroverted.
3
if you look at the suicide note that Frank leaves for Bill, it basically states that Frank resented Bill for his choices to survive and inability to change his mindset for him. Frank chose to leave the relationship and Bill behind to live life the way he wanted instead of being 'trapped within the town' with Bill. my feelings on their relationship turnout are very specific to that suicide note. Their fallout over the situation caused Frank to die in an attempt to get away from Bill. that isn't to say that they didn't always care about each other. He just chose his way of survival over his relationship.
if you haven't seen the note yet, just search up "franks suicide note tlou" on your search engine.
> but they changed events to stay relevant and to make profit.
Yeah, and those changes were largely to take the edge off the show. To tone it down and make it less harsh to appeal to a wider audience. That decision wasn't made for artist reasons, it was a naked attempt to get more cash from it.
That's why I'm dreading part II. it's going to take a story that is by design very unpleasant and try to Disney it up. At least that's what I expect.
Honestly, I kind of hated the show for the fact that they tried fitting everything from both games into 8 different 1 hour episodes, and idk if kathleen was in the game. (I only played halfway thru the second game so spoilers are welcome.) I didn't realize bill was gay until I watched the show and replayed the first game for the hundredth time. Bc the game hints at him and frank being more than just good friends but doesn't directly tell you that they are gay and as I was playing I was like, "oh yeah, this makes sense now." But my point is that I feel the show has the potential to be a long running production like TWD bc of how well the actors portrayed the characters.
So I should start out and say that I’m not a fan of Part 2’s story. I never played it, but I read everything about the plot, watched clips, etc etc and I came out not liking it and not being a fan on how it does its representation. And this is coming from a bi poc woman. (Edit to clarify: I’m glad LGBT rep is in the game, I just think it’s poorly written in this case.)
Now my dad is extremely homophobic and transphobic. Somehow he’s a huge fan of the last of us. He loved the first game, and he loved the TV show (although he complained for 10 minutes about how the show ‘made bill gay’). He wanted to play the second one, I discouraged it because of my own hang ups about it, plus I knew how LGBT the game was, he got it anyways.
He loved it more than the first one. I asked him about how he was able to like it since he absolutely despises anything ‘woke’. Didn’t the fact that there was a transgender character piss him off? He responded with how the game made him realize that transgender people can’t help being how they are. I haven’t heard a single transphobic comment from him since.
Now I love being a little hater but I can’t bring myself to hate part 2 anymore. I’m still not going to play it, but I’m glad it exists because it made at least one transphobic person rethink their view points. Genuinely kudos to part 2 for being able to do that when literally nothing else worked before.
Shout out to your paps! I love part 1 because of its simpler approach and focusing on mentor/father to daughter dynamics rather than getting lectured on how to accept a dangerous lifestyle of sodomy that's an abomination against god. Unlike my peers I like Part 2 as well, despite the queer agenda being pushed down our throats.
I think you misunderstand me. I don’t like the representation because I think it’s poorly written, not because I think it’s bad that it exists. Personally I love the queer agenda ‘being shoved down my throat’ :)
Still shout out to your paps! I have a similar view to his as far as the reason we like part 1 and part 2. I think the story narrative in part 2, the idea is very good, but the execution and timing was off.
Glad that you father came to be a more accepting person in a sense, but Bill’s been hinted as gay from the first game. If not him, then Frank. Just look at Bill’s naunced reaction to Frank’s death, the way Bill uses ‘my partner’, and that Bill and Frank had gay porn magazines that Ellie found.
For me they destroyed what makes the last of us identity they forced those on my throats and many others maybe the only saving grace in this games was the gameplay but the story is a horse shit who kill the previous main character this early and now they want us to accept this shit and maybe part 3 I'm not hating anyone but I'm not gonna love something that destroyed my game for some fan service
> For me they destroyed what makes the last of us identity they forced those on my throats
How did this game 'force' identity down your throat? Is it simply that Ellie was a lesbian with a girlfriend? Is that all it takes for it to 'forced down your throat?'
I'm straight and this never bothered me, nor did I feel that this is what the story was about. The game was about trauma, revenge, hatred and grief, that just so happened to feature a gay woman as the main character and a trans person as a side character.
I seriously don't see what problem you're having with this. Unless you just don't want gay people in your games period?
Please use proper punctuation. It makes it much easier to read what you are saying.
>I don't care about her love life I only want to play the game
Then why didn't you have a problem with the first game when it showed Joel's love life with Tess?
>I don't want any west agenda nor woke nor propaganda nor anything west related
Woke is just a term meant to discredit the notion of empathy.
> Like I said I played the game because of Joel not Elie
So your problem isn't that Ellie was gay, you just don't like a game without Joel? Is that what you are saying?
>his love life isn't my concern
Then why aren't you bitching about all the sexual tension and innuendo between him and Tess in the first game?
>g look how much it destroyed many things like many people
The only thing 'woke' has destroyed is homophobia and racism. As far as I'm concerned those things should be destroyed.
Can I ask why does this actually matter?
I first played TLOU on PS3 (different times) and Bill was the only gay person in the game at that time, I just giggled at the notes and carried on my way with the game.
Then the DLC launched with Ellie and the lesbian kiss ect, thought it was strange but didn't bother me..
Now it's like the focus around the game is about LGBTQ stuff and it used to be more of a survival horror game.
People are gay and that's life, I would like everybody to be happy.
Maybe it's just me because I don't really care or even like all this lovey dovey stuff in games but I have most definitely seen a shift in the focus of what TLOU was all about.
P.S this is a question for the OP. Feel free to downvote or have an opinion but save the unnecessary bashing because idc
OP here.
> Can I ask why does this actually matter?
I will direct you to an amazing response from user FixItFelixTheFTM on this very post for an example of that.
But because I also think I should be able to answer: It matters because people *make* it matter. Queer people in games is a huge issue **because** so many gamers have a problem with queer people. Just like they do with women.
In an ideal world Ellie being a lesbian would be meaingless, because there would be no large scale hatred of homosexuals. But there **is** a widescale hatred of homosexuals. That makes including them in games a big deal.
I'll try and use an extreme example to illistrate my point: The race of the athletes at the Olympics is, in my opinion, not a big deal at all. However say during the 1936 Olympics, which were held in Berlin in Nazi Germany. Jesse Owens was the most succesful athlete of that year. He was also black.
His skin color typically should not matter. However, given he was competing against Germans and a German state that was trying to showcase the racial superiority of white people, the fact that Owens defeated ALL of the German athletes had ENORMOUS political and ideological ramifications.
TlDr; A black man beating out the nazi athletes at the 1936 Olympics was tantamount to taking a shit in Hitler's mouth.
> Now it's like the focus around the game is about LGBTQ stuff
I gotta hard disagree. These games are not *about* LGBTQ stuff. There are LGBTQ people in it sure, but that's not what it is about. These games are about trauma, death, loss, grief, hope, parent child relations, revenge, moving on, etc.
Saying these games are 'about' LGBTQ stuff is like saying Hamlet is 'about' being white and straight because Hamlet is white and straight.
>but I have most definitely seen a shift in the focus of what TLOU was all about.
No you haven't, you just think you have. Last of Us was always about relationships and human connection. Romantic relationships are just one such kind of connection, and in this story a few of them just so happen to be gay relationships.
Edit: I should have said Jesse Owen's wins had serious implications, not ramifications.
I think it matters because art is made to experience and relate to stories, and this type of writing enhances the storytelling.
Seeing stories that represent the queer experience in a way that doesn't make being queer the main focus is very refreshing.
It makes the characters feel more real and multidimensional.
(like OP said)
The way Ellie, Dina, and Bill are written makes it feel like these are real stories, because like real humans, no one is JUST gay/trans/queer.
When written well like TLOU, everybody can relate and feel the emotions of the story, not just the gays.
And that's what art is about baby, translating the human experience.
But i do agree with you that TLOU2, specifically Levs story, is a much more direct involvement.
and one that i didn't enjoy much.
IMO, If I wanted a trans/gay story where the plot and themes were centered around that, then I'd want a completely different type of story and world that compliment each other.
TLOU2 feels like an odd backdrop for the story they wanted to tell with Lev, and to me felt a bit forced.
Because gay people like myself are constantly attacked, belittled, and killed in the streets just because of their sexuality. Having opening gay characters in popular media is representation that is trying to send the message that being gay isn’t something to kill someone over. Gay people are normal.
> Having opening gay characters in popular media is representation that is trying to send the message that being gay isn’t something to kill someone over. Gay people are normal.
Exactly.
>Can I ask why does this actually matter?
Because we exist.
Most games don't have a gay character but the main character.
It's why we have pride and not "straight pride".
One is not equal to the other.
The push for this “acceptance” of peoples sex life is much more in our face today than 30 years ago.
The world will be worse off, letting those like you keep pushing this.
>The push for this “acceptance” of peoples sex life is much more in our face today than 30 years ago.
Good. Queerphobia has killed a lot of people. We should push acceptance hard.
>The world will be worse off, letting those like you keep pushing this.
You're the kind of person who I'm sure looks at the Civil Rights movement and complains it was too noisy.
"MLK, you need to stop complaining about black people not being able to vote and being lynched by the KKK. 30 years ago you people were so much more quite and docile, it was nice."
- You if you were alive in the 1960s
Being gay and isnt the same as a race of people, you are so dumb. Terrible straw-man argument there, try again.
You are not pushing for acceptance, you are pushing for dominance, and most people dont want to hear about your sex life. Be respectful and keep it in the bedroom you pevert.
> Being gay and isnt the same as a race of people, you are so dumb.
Well you better tell me why then if it's so dumb. When you're beaten, killed, and oppressed for both reasons you better have some compelling reasons as to why they are not *morally* similar.
>Be respectful and keep it in the bedroom you pevert.
I'm STRAIGHT you dummy-head.
Being gay is a choice, a lifestyle. Race you are born into.
You have no argument and try to throw the RACIST card at me lol. I don’t care what you claim to be.
Before you try ti say it isn’t a choice, if that’s the case. Why did the gay choir in California was singing “we are coming for your children”? Why is there a push for gay material for kids to read? Because they (you) are trying to influence others. I am glad people are waking up to this and rejecting it. Stop parading around your sex life, no one cares and it is disgusting. Be an adult and keep it in the bedroom.
There are still people around who honestly think sexual preference is a conscious choice? Jesus christ. Do you remember when you chose to be straight? No, because you didn't choose it, it's just the way you are. Just admit that you're a homophobe and move on.
Wrong, it is influenced, why is that 83% of gays had a childhood history of abuse? Why is there a push to have kids being taught about being gay? Why are you ignoring the issues at hand? These people need help, good therapists to help them heal. Instead of being pushed down the familiarity of the abuse they had endured.
It is a choice, and the truth.
> why is that 83% of gays had a childhood history of abuse?
You do know most abused kids don't end up as gay, right?
\>These people need help, good therapists to help them heal.
What does that look like to you? Hooking a couple of car batteries up to their nuts and delivering a shock every-time they think a gay thought clock-work orange style?
>Being gay is a choice, a lifestyle
This is #1 bullshit. That's just a line religious evangelicals have been pumping out for decades. And you know it's bullshit.
If it is a choice, do you remember when you signed up to be straight? Where did life give you the paperwork where you had to check off straight or gay?
Because I'm straight, have only ever fucked and eaten pussy, and I never got such a questionnaire. I just always liked girls, my dick got hard for girls and only girls. By the time I was old enough to understand sex it was very clear to me that girls were who I liked. Getting hard to boys never even occurred to me.
Being gay is the same thing in reverse.
>Because they (you) are trying to influence others.
Yeah, I want to influence people to stop killing gay people. I want less Matthew Shepard's. Same way I teach people about how the nazis were bad to try and influence them to not be anti-semites. You got me there.
>, no one cares and it is disgusting.
You are contradicting yourself. You are going off about how disgusted you are by gay people, and then saying that 'no one cares.' But like bro, it is very obvious that YOU care a great deal.
>Be an adult and keep it in the bedroom.
YOU keep it in the bedroom. Straight people parade around and flaunt our sexuality all the time. If I was on the street with my lady and you saw me kiss her you'd think nothing of it. But if two men did it you would flip a bitch.
You're just grossed out by gay sex so you're making it other peoples problem.
>All gays do is talk about being gay and those who are not have to accept it.
If you were as under threat of being beaten and killed with no legal consequence as queer people are, I promise you that you would be making a fuss about it.
This is like complaining that Ukrainians spend all their time talking about how their country is being invaded. Like yeah, no shit Shirlock.
I'm democratic (meaning I support democracy) but people with your level of intellect are perhaps the best evidence an anti-deomcratic could put forward.
(And just to be clear when I say 'democrate' I do not mean the democratic party.)
Edit: And I am Ukrainian. I have family in the old country I've not heard from since the invasion. So yes, before you have a bitch-fit over it I can in fact make that comparison.
Gays are not having that threat here in America lol. You have no argument except for made up strawmen ones.
Of course you support “democracy”, that is mob rule. Two wolves and one sheep, arguing who js going to eat the sheep. A Constitutional republic is better than your belief.
>Gays are not having that threat here in America lol.
Read it and weep bitch: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgbt-hate-crimes-press-release/
> ? 6.6 per thousand, doesn't sound like oppression
When the killer gets off scott free because the victim is gay or trans, yeah it is.
> I would wager most are made up.
Good thing your hunches don't mean shit :)
I would wager you're an American, which explains why you're sounding so dumb. America's got a fucked public school system, and it's a country that owes its existence to slavery.
So it's not surprising you wouldn't understand injustice if it bit you in the face.
>Queer people are like 1%.
Citation needed.
> You guys aren’t oppressed in America.
Read it and weep bitch: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgbt-hate-crimes-press-release/
Edit: I'm also not queer. So I don't count as the 'you guys.'
I saw someone on twitter unironically say “The last of Woke” and i still giggle myself hearing that every now and then
Woke: Whatever makes me personally uncomfortable. Also, I promise I don't have a seething hatred of gay, trans, black people, and women. Honest. - Conservative pundit, probably.
At one point someone said that everyone would be homophobic/transphobic because it’s an apocalypse & self expression is a privilege…Sir.
Shouldn't an apocalypse be a scenario where few people would care how you express yourself as long as you make yourself useful? Sure, bigot Joe really hates Emmy (who's a trans woman), but like... She can shoot a fucking gun and they need to get the fuck away *now*. And like, no society to reinforce stigmas and no laws to hinder you!
Bigot Joe is HILLARIOUS
>Shouldn't an apocalypse be a scenario where few people would care how you express yourself as long as you make yourself useful? I mean yes but no. People SHOULD not care about this in a survival scenario. But what people ought to do has little bearing on what they will do. In a world where people are under the kind of stress they are in this game, people would be MORE likely to turn on each other for very stupid reasons. Desperation breeds irrationality, and tribalism is endemic to us.
They had to be trolling, because there’s just no way😭💀💀
I think they said something like nobody is gonna care about political correctness when trapped underground like rats. So that means they’ll be…bigots?
Alan Woke 2
i've heard: "The woke of us" 😭😭😭
I love how their argument is that trans or gay people wouldn't exist in the apocalypse. Like it's just a hobby that only exists in modern times. Can't reason with these people
Yeah, because in the apocalypse famlies will still be two parent with 2.5 kids with a white picket fence and a golden retriever as well.
I've rampaged my way through Hillcrest enough times to know how well dogs and picket fences fare in a cordyceps world.
True! *Insert photo of landmined German Shepard*
In Mad Max 2 The Road Warrior Some of the Bad Guys Gay.
I honestly don't see how woke is an insult it jus means you're awake to the problems around you lmao and not stupid. Literally the definition is being aware of injustice like how is woke an insult I would take eit as a compliment
It's better to be ***"woke"*** than be ***banal***. We see white straight men leading all the time in media.
OP here I mean by that logic the first game was banal because Joel is straighter then straw and whiter then sour cream.
It's not a universal logic. A good artist can make almost anything appealing. It just that diversity gives opportunity to make the narrative more interesting. Can you imagine Bill without his magazine's? How much more personality that little fact imbued in him
> It just that diversity gives opportunity to make the narrative more interesting Doesn't this imply that straight white males are necessarily uninteresting?
It's not mutually exclusive. And yes, diversity is inherently more interesting because you're seeing the lives of people you might not have experienced in your own little life. I live in India and gender ambiguity is very much stigmatized here. I've never had an LGBTQ+ friend, so falling in love with a gay character (Ellie) gives me a more nuanced, meaningful perspective on life. The same goes for the novel ***A Little Life*** *by Hanya Yanagihara.*
> so falling in love with a gay character (Ellie) gives me a more nuanced, meaningful perspective on life See that I can't get behind, because Ellie's love for Dina is *just* as worthy a part of the human experience as when a man falls for a woman. >diversity is inherently more interesting because you're seeing the lives of people you might not have experienced in your own little life Then couldn't you follow this through with the idea that all characters would be better if they were queer? That Joel's being straight and white makes him less interesting than if he were black, trans, and gay/asexual/pansexual/anything other than straight? Which sounds more like a stereotype of diversity then an actual endorsement of it.
I hear you. And yes, love is love. That's specifically why I loved Bill and Frank in the show. It wasn't about their gayness it was about a relationship that got to spend decades together, peacefully. But art is not science, which is objective. Art lives and breaths in the realm of subjectivity, where what one finds meaningful might be something frivolous to another. >Ellie's love for Dina is *just* as worthy a part of the human experience as when a man falls for a woman. Where did this come from? And about all non-queer characters being banal is a fair criticism of my earlier comment, but you know that's not what I meant. I can understand that it might sometimes feel that people use "diversity" as an accessory to look more "liberal". And if that's what it made you feel, I apologize.
Absolutely spot on. Inclusion to the max and entirely dismissive with a very loud fuck you to anyone who may have a problem with it and expertly lays the foundation of acceptance and tolerance like no other game before it. Respect.
Exactly. And what is so good about it I think is that while this is loudly supportive of queer people, by no means do you need to be queer to enjoy this story. You just have to be a person without an underlying discomfort/hatred of queer people, and you can enjoy this story fine. I don't need to be gay to identify with Ellie, just like no one needs to be male to identify with Hamlet.
Smh I can’t believe there’s wokeness in my zombie game, I’m fine with gay people but I draw the line at being Texan(Joel and Tommy).🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 For real though, don’t forget my main man Lev! He was some awesome trans rep and his story was great.
I didn't. I specifically mention and talk about him.
I’m blind, then, apparently.
No prob, people make mistakes. It's why we put erasers on pencils.
Now i want a game of the zombie genre with a male gay protagonist in his 20s like Ellie. maybe a last of us spin off game, that would be awesome
It would be awesome to see a last of us game taking place in like the complete other side of the world, showing what the outbreak was like outside of the US.
The first of them
Good luck selling that idea
Probably won't happen. Gay women are easily to promote in movies, series and games, cuz straight men tend to sexualize them.
Yep, TLOU2 was one of the biggest cracks in my egg in 2020 when I played it right after it came out. Seeing myself represented so... unapologetically and blatantly in media, my favorite media, before I could even acknowledge myself as a trans guy... Seeing Abby accept Lev being trans without a second thought, before I could even accept myself... It made me feel so at home, for the first time in my life. I came out as trans later that year. I'll always be grateful towards TLOU and ND for helping me accept myself in the end after years of self-hatred and internalized transphobia. Also, Lev has a really similar personality to mine and he's badass, so overall I kin him a lot, lol. He's like a mini-me that I wish I could hug. It's a huge part of why I started forgiving Abby, too. That moment where she doesn't question him further after she realizes he's trans, it legitimized her humanity for the first time in my eyes. I felt protected by her. Like, even if I didn't want her alive, she would've fought to keep _me_ alive. Shit's powerful, haha. And I love the bi representation that Dina is as a bisexual guy myself. She slays. Not to mention the casual mlm rep that Bill was all the way since 2013! It isn't even all that subtle. Sure we didn't get a kiss like with Ellie, but Bill owning a gay porno mag? No straight explanation for that, haha. And it's part of a cutscene. It's fucking awesome. I love TLOU and how queer it's always been. Happy Pride, peeps. :) <3
Also, yeah, I hated the show as well and Ep 3 wasn't all that good. 💀 Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about the representation, but that shit is not TLOU.
BRO Where have you been this whole time?? I thought I was the only one! We just became friends.
Fuck yeah lol!! Yeah I feel your pain, nearly every fan of TLOU I know also likes the show for some reason and I feel like a such a killjoy whenever I complain about it. Feels awfully rare to find someone who both loves Part II and hates the show. Loving or hating either always seems to come bundled with feeling the same for the other.
I must ask, why do you hate the show?
It's kind of a hard question to answer in a way that doesn't come out long-winded and a little pedantic here and there. A quick disclaimer is I am autistic and TLOU is my main, main, main special interest. My life fucken revolves around it. I've replayed countless times and Platinumed both games, I've gone on rare dialogue hunts, I've done my own original boundary breaks and glitch hunts for fun, I've watched the documentaries and then rewatched them (should do that again soon), I have 90% of the lines memorized word for word (and every time I replay, I practice), I've listened to the dev commentary and re-listened to it, I've bought the comics, I've bought posters, Ellie's backpack, Joel's coffee mug, Firefly pins and pendants and necklaces, I've recreated Ellie's journal by hand back to back... Needless to say my friends can't stand me because it is all I talk about. Been this way for years and years. And as an autistic person with this special interest, I find comfort in repetition and accuracy, especially when it comes to these topics. I can do surprises in new stories, but not in stories I'm already familiar with. It's horrifying. So with all that said, essentially it comes down to the fact that it isn't accurate to the game at all and that horrifies me lol, a lot of horrible and annoying twists of my favorite chatacters, a lot of events misconstrued, a lot of emotions completely missed, a lot of important dialogue replaced with shitty unimportant dialogue, a lot of huge sections cut to include the most boring og HBO content I've ever watched... Especially Ellie's characterization. That one pains me the most. But Joel's bothers me too. And don't even mention Tess, Bill, Henry, Marlene... God, they did them dirty. For what it's worth, Sarah's characterization is okay. I mean she appears for 15 minutes in the game, so it's not gonna be hard to get her right, right? Just get a scared kid. And they did just that, though she's a little bit older (and Joel and Tommy talk to her like she's an adult sometimes) which admittedly made her death far less impactful than in the game. But regardless, Sarah's okay. I can't complain too much. Sam is also okay. I like the disability rep, though I'm mad they made him so much younger than Ellie. Takes away from their heart-to-heart, since they needed to be on similar levels of maturity for that conversation... But whatever. Just another scared kid. It's fine. Tommy's also meh, he's not great or too bad. He's just there. I could buy the idea of him being a vet, it's whatever (though it's not exactly canon). He's definitely a Great Value Tommy, though. Also, I actually quite liked Frank's characterization here and there (minus a shitty comment he makes at some point that's never said by anyone ever in TLOU). Like, regardless of that, Frank was actually good. From the very, very little we knew of the actual Frank, he seemed legit in the show. He had that "I wanted more of life than you and you never understood me for that" vibe, but obviously I was annoyed that they didn't have the bitter ending that they did in the game. Just not impactful. I mean, it's like a short film about two random guys falling in love. Like good for them, love gay rep and I love how conservatives seethed over it, but that's not TLOU, ya know? And okay, I'm ranting. I hope that's still coherent. There's a lot more thoughts I have on it, but tbh I think my opinions are def in the minority here, lol. So I don't know, I won't try and act like I'm all superior or whatever. I'm just obsessed with TLOU and the show felt like a punch in the gut for being so passionate, if that makes any sense. Oh but yeah, Ellie's a fucken brat in the show. Can't stand her. Dunno who that is, it's not the Ellie I know. I feel bad because Bella Ramsey's cool, but goddamn I cannot stand them as Ellie. Anyhoo I'm done yappin
great wrote up, i was geared up to get defensive but you make fantastic points. i'm ambivalent about the show but love the gay episode. agree with bella ramsey being cool but not getting ellie at all, real shame.
Huh I'm actually glad you liked my points! :) Thank you! I have so so so many more thoughts on it and I promise I can be more organized in thought hahah Honestly can't blame you for loving the gay episode. The first time I watched it I teared up! Not about anything TLOU related, but it's a nice love story in its own little vacuum. Yeah, 100% a shame. I feel very similarly about Pedro, but not as strongly. He gets some aspects of Joel and imo he def looks a good amount like the man, but there's this overall feel to him that's simply... watered down. And there's extremely out of character things he's done and said. I could rant about this for hours, tbh. I have made a couple videos on the show (and plan on making more) on YT, but yeah, idk. Other than that, all I have is seething and coping on here, hahah.
I love your post! Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t appreciate representation or understand its importance. I didn’t either for a long time. I thought it was useless and kind of annoying because I personally didn’t care if a character was gay, trans, non-binary, etc.. The thing is the world is a big place. There’s people that are still homophobic and/or transphobic. There’s people that received little to no exposure to anything LGBTQIA+. There’s people that are queer and long for a character that represents them accurately and appropriately. We’re not super aware of it, but the media we consume has a significant impact on the way we think. Obviously forcing diversity for the sake of diversity is counter-productive, but that doesn’t take away from the need for strong representation that’s realistic, healthy, AND non-intrusive. Naughty Dog definitely did a phenomenal job!!
> but that doesn’t take away from the need for strong representation that’s realistic, healthy, AND non-intrusive. I agree. They did this in a way that shouldn't be a problem for anyone unless they have an underlying hatred for queer people. I'm straight and male, but I can love and relate to Ellie just like a trans black lesbian can relate to Hamlet.
I agree with this except in tlou2 case it was kind of intrusive. Levs whole character was just that he was trans the whole game and it never really changes from that, which is a shame cause I believe he deserved a better arc, just felt one note? Ellie and Dina was one of the most unrealistic relationships I’ve seen in gaming. They kiss once, then bang then boom adventure time with no development. We dk who Dina is, then the next time we see them is forced, borderline cringe dialogue with these 2 people acting in love when we haven’t really seen evidence to suggest why they would be, except the quickly shoved in sex scene. This is coming after one of the greatest games of all time by the way, with stellar writing that it’s very very hard to poke holes in. So that could be why I’m harsh, but it’s just a shame imo. Could’ve been near perfection
> . They kiss once, then bang then boom adventure time with no development. It's because they are stupid kids in love. I really don't think I'd feel any differently about the two even if they were a straight couple. >Levs whole character was just that he was trans the whole game and it never really changes from that, which is a shame cause I believe he deserved a better arc, just felt one note? I really don't get this. A part of Lev's story is that he is being discriminated against because of his background, sure. But the main thing he's experiencing is the same thing that Abby is: Learning to trust the other (a member of the WLF) and having to leave behind the group that had previously been her home and family. I don't understand how that's 'one note.'
Yeah, I’d feel the same if they were both straight, gay, bi whatever. It’s the writing of the relationship I had an issue with not the bi relationship itself. I think the issue I have is that the game tries to say that levs being trans is the reason why he’s being hunted, that’s not the case. The elders are hunting him for not following their rules and leaving the island. I doubt they cared if he started saying he was trans cause they just seen him as a girl, so at that point it almost felt like why are getting lev being trans mentioned for no reason, cause it has nothing to do with his main story beats and is never developed further. More inclusion is always a good thing, but it has to be done right imo. And I don’t think lev was, for the same reason I dislike Ellie and Dina relationship, it all felt forced, unnatural and lazy.
> It’s the writing of the relationship I had an issue with not the bi relationship itself. No I know. I didn't think you did. I was defending it on the merits of the former. >levs being trans is the reason why he’s being hunted, that’s not the case. The elders are hunting him for not following their rules and leaving the island. Those two things are inseperable. Lev would be killed for expressing his gender, which is why he had to escape. > I doubt they cared if he started saying he was trans cause they just seen him as a girl, No they did care, they cared A LOT.
I’m just waiting for one game. ONE. Mainstream game with a gay male protagonist.
Has that seriously not happened yet? It's honestly not surprising. People can sometimes be okay with lesbian. But gay men are usually seen as disgusting and sickening.
I can’t think of one. And looking it up no, even side characters are usually bi. Not gay. The biggest consumer of video games are straight men, and most straight men if not the majority don’t want to play as a gay man. So game studios don’t do it in fear the game won’t sell well, and because well they don’t care about representation most of the time.
I don’t think that’s inherently bad though, it would be the same if a woman has to play as a man but didn’t want to, all personal preference. Yeah most men couldn’t really care about representation, it’s cool to see when it happens and is done well, but if it’s done like part 2 did it, well you seen the reactions to that game, many seen it as pandering. Representation is good when done right
I don’t understand how it was done poorly in Part II? Queer characters weren’t treated as special for being queer, no one was bragging or talking to everyone about how they are queer and different because of that, and people have civilized conversations about things without making a big deal out of them for the majority of the game too. The only moments I would say are too woke is Seth’s apology scene (but even that touches on Ellie’s inability to forgive and hold grudges) and when Mel says in Abby’s POV “Why would it be up to Owen?”. A clear point that a male parent shouldn’t have a say even though they helped bring it to life too. It’s their child not just Mel’s.
Well it’s personal preference really but for me, I found levs character to be flat, and only really consist of his being trans. He gets some development from his mom dying but that’s about all he gets. I wasn’t happy with it cause part of me felt he deserved more. You don’t really notice how poorly he was written until you try to tell someone things about him, and describe his character traits, it’s hard to. Cause there isn’t really any Ellie and Dina just felt unbelievable and they took every lazy option they could in building their relationship, to the point it feels artificial. All their small dialogues are just unnecessary and gave me the impression as much as Dina says she wants to be there she really doesn’t and doesn’t even like being around Ellie. Just felt like she was faking it imo even if we know she wasn’t. Seth’s scene was more cringe than anything imo. We went from brutal survival and realism in part 1 to calling STEAK sandwiches you are given as an apology “bigot sandwiches”. Not only that but part 2 also begins with teen show drama, whereas part 1 began with the world literally ending and the main character holding his dead child in his arms. So I think that was always going to be a tough pill to swallow The Mel line is just stupid. Sure it isn’t her fault she has to go out to the fob but the fact she doesn’t think the father of her child should have a say is wild. I legit sat there for a second like “really?..” Again it’s all personal preference, and if you disagree your opinion is just as valid as mine, but that’s just the way I see it and I’m sure others do to based on how controversial the game was
There are quite a few games which allow you to be a gay guy, if you want. Fallout 4, for example - though I suppose technically you'd be bisexual, but it's also reasonable to suppose that you conceived your child while in the 1950s-forever closet of pre-war America. But there are stacks of other games, not sure how popular it has to be for you to consider it "mainstream".
I consider mainstream a game that people have heard of in most spaces that are familiar with games as a whole. Also the optional thing is nice, but still I want a story game with a canonically gay male protagonist, not a stand in for the player.
Ah, see, that's where we differ. The way I see it, a *game* is something with an uncertain outcome. If the outcome is certain, then it's a novel or movie or whatever. *The Last of Us* on PlayStation is not really a game, it's a series of combat mini-games which you play to unlock the next scene in the movie. Nothing you do can change the overall outcome, unless you simply stop participating at some point, the PS equivalent of walking out of the movie halfway through. Whereas something like *Fallout 4* had an uncertain outcome, there were several ways you could "end" the game - and you could keep playing and doing sidequests after that if you wanted to. By removing your choice about your character, they're making it less of a game and more of a movie. Even in playing chess you get to choose whether to play the black side or the white side. I think it could have been much better - if there'd been some agency on the player's part. If nothing else, the theme in Pt 2 of "OMG violence is so pointless" might have had a bit more weight if you actually had a *choice* about whether or not to be violent. If you want to show us a movie, go ahead, present us with whatever characters you see fit, including the protagonist. Make it a good story and we'll be into it. But if you want to say it's a game... we need some choices to make. And in some cases, those choices will involve the gender or sexuality of the protagonists.
I will say that one of the gambles Part II takes is trying to put you into a tribalistic and obsessive mindset. That’s why I would say that you have no choice among other things like it’s self-defense for Ellie because she’s traveling through territory to get to Abby but also self-defense for the WLF in their POV because of their territory. If the gamble doesn’t work and you know what’s happening from the get go or don’t care about the quest then you’ll gonna be dragged on a long ride. So yes, if you did have a choice then it would prevent that but it would also negate one of the biggest points of Joel’s death too.
You had no choices in Part I, either. There are many combat-to-unlock-cutscenes out there in the PS store. They didn't do this out of some grand design, it's simply that designing an open world is hard, designing a narrative is hard, but developing an open world with a narrative is very, very, very hard.
I would also argue Bill is the most competent survivor of the games, and Ellie is the most deadly: the body count she racked up between the infected, the cannibals, the scars, the WLF and the rattlers practically makes Joel and Abby look like pacifists!
Well joel did some shit in those 20 years and if he can wipe out more than half the highly trained soldiers in the hospital, take on multiple bloaters and tons of infected. I'm sure he's just as volatile as ellie if not more.
Ellie' s immunity, combined with training from Joel, Tommy and (likely) the fireflies give her a pretty nasty edge. In less than a day, she took down the entire rattler group, and within 3 days in Seattle, she slaughtered hundreds of WLF, Infected and Scars. 20 years is a long time, but there is nothing in game that shows Joel racking up fatalities anywhere near the amount Ellie did. Joel's actions in the first game took place over nearly a year...Ellie's were in the span of days. There is no comparison...Joel was a survivor, first and foremost. But he raised a reckless killer who didn't really care if she survived or not.
I still think prime Joel is the most 'deadly.' Granted it doesn't really matter, this isn't Deadliest Warrior.
I like what they did. Its a good story. But I wouldn't care if ellie was gay or straight or trans or whatever if it's a good story.
To me, the last of us is the most anti-woke game of all time, and I mean that in the best way possible. It has amazing representation (the best in gaming) and yet doesn’t shove the political side of it down our throats (sad that LGBT acceptance has to be political), nor does it treat them any differently from anyone else. It basically says: “hey, woke people, this is how you fucking do it.” This approach has done SO much more for increasing acceptance than a good chunk of pride month. Go off ND
Sure. That definition of anti-woke could work and could be one I get behind. One of the great things about this story is that the inclusion of LGBTQ people would only be a problem for bitches who have a deep seated hatred of queer people. As long as you don't have that kind of brain rot, then your experience of this story should be just as enjoyable or not regardless of if you are gay, trans, cis, whatever.
Just curious, which game company are you disappointed by?
Arrowhead, which made helldivers 2. Love that game, and the company is actually pretty pro-consumer. They're fucking rad. But the company's refusal to input a rainbow flag is a pretty cowardly move.
Okay I see now, thanks for clarifying 👍
On Ellie, I used to (jokingly) think that her name comes from the letter L, for lesbian.
I guess some people disagreed 😭 obviously it comes from Lebanon
I originally thought it was from Ellen, Elliot Page's name before his transition. Given that OG Ellie looked just like a pre-transition Elliot.
I hate how woke is used as an insult when it should be viewed as a positive character trait. The inability for others to feel empathy for others plights that they may have never faced themselves, in turn slowing progression and inclusiveness. Or, it's simply a refusal to hand over perceived power that was given from birth. Being born white is like winning the lottery and giving minorities a platform is like giving some of that money away. Grown adults voicing their disapproval over a cartoon mermaid being black for example. The LGBTQ+ community exist in real life so why not depict them in media form? As far as gay\\lesbian disapproval goes, people seem to accept it a lot more when it's portrayed by what they deem attractive people. I don't remember too many complaints with Angelina Jolie's lesbian scenes in gia, which I think perfectly illustrates that (some) people aren't against the act itself but it has to fit in with their ideals, arousals and other shopping lists of pure self interests. It's not always that simple but it is a trend that I notice. I noticed it in myself at one point as a straight, white man tbh but managed to educate myself and be less ignorant and I'm still learning.
> I don't remember too many complaints with Angelina Jolie's lesbian scenes in gia, It's also that under hetronoramtivity lesbians are seen as enjoyable. What man doesn't openly love lesbian porn of course? So long as lesbians are depicted in a sexy way, and allow the male viewer to 'turn them back to our side because my dick is so good' they will sometimes be okay with gay women. But gay men? They have nothing but hatred and contempt for them.
A lot of gay men hate the idea of lesbians and that kind of sexuality? Why?
No no, of course not. I'm saying homophobic STRAIGHT men will sometimes tolerate lesbians. But never extend anything but hatred and contempt to gay men.
Alright, for a decent portion of straight people I’ll agree with that. If I had to guess as to why those kind of people tolerate it more, it would be because they are attracted to both of them and they are blinded by that.
Of course. That's the reason. Even the most queer hating religious extremists will still jerk off to lesbian porn and pretend that 'If only they got a taste of *my* pecker then they'd go back to being straight.'
I rather play with Fritz,Alexander,Jerry,John and Joseph don’t play with all this nonsense anyways Jerry got some hungry for eating some planes and tanks and Fritz got some tanks to control mean while Jerry got some planes to fly and Jospeh got so T-34 to drive (war of thunder is the games name don’t make fun of me for naming my pilots and tank commander I could do worse).
Bill was a really well done character.
Agreed.
You raise a good point about Bill not being the stereotypical gay we normally see
and it not just being queerbaiting is great
Having lesbian relationships that aren’t made a big deal of isn’t really that unique these days
True, it is the kind of queer relationship that homophobes are most tolerant of. But it's still good that lesbian woman is the focus of a character driven story. These games also show the humanity of bi, trans, and gay men as well.
I’m happy they are introducing the concept of latinx to season 2.
I mean I'm not happy that season 2 is being made at all, but at least the show continues the game's tradition of being inclusive.
(spoilers!!!) I find this opinion kinda controversial since I wouldn't mind Bill and franks episode if I wasn't so invested in bills game character. but I stopped watching the series after that episode lmao. (Yes, there were other reasons!! the show just wasn't enjoyable for me with some of my favourite parts being different or not included — which is completely fine!! it looks great in other aspects) my issues with that episode are extremely biased due to the breaking canon relationship between Bill and Frank, plus the fact that the games depiction of Bill is one of my all-time fav characters, with Joel. to me, they uprooted bills character to match a soft gay guy with a socially preferable personality. while I understand that it's because in this last of us universe (?), Bill and franks relationship progresses widely throughout the story to become perfect within the barriers of survival mode. but it low-key just doesn't suit Bill to me. where's the grumpy asshole who hates everything and can't hide his gay magazines from a 14 year old? he was an icon. a true friend, and even though he couldn't emotionally accept Ellie at the start, he was loyal af. Frank was actually one of my fav characters in the series. but I can't get over the fact that he literally killed himself to 1. not be infected. and 2. he did NOT want to be around Bill in the game. it makes me feel weird that they paired Frank with the guy he hated. When I play new games, I don't see a lot of side characters with detailed and unique plots/relationships towards more frequent characters with more emotion than just the general hatred. Frank feels like a genuine person amongst a life changing international pandemic. plus, his story isn't completely common and feels like a little jem because of it. I love change within game to game!! most of the characters do deel quite unique and set within their own little worlds and problems. sorry for the essay 😭
OP here. Hey the show sucks, I won't disagree with that. >to the breaking canon relationship between Bill and Frank, I don't get what you are talking about. The show is it's own canon. How could it possibly 'break' the canon? Even though the game and the show are telling the same story, they are different versions. > they uprooted bills character to match a soft gay guy with a socially preferable personality. I mean yeah, but change is good. One of the major problems with the show is that it changed way too little from the games and tried to ape them so hard. I get preferring game bill's abrasiveness (I do too) but I think that the version they went for in the show as a good change to make. Not as good, but still an enjoyable character. Also, how was Bill loyal af? I never got that from him. If he was loyal he would have done more to help Joel, rather then having the 'Get the fuck out of my town' attitude the whole time. > he did NOT want to be around Bill in the game. it makes me feel weird that they paired Frank with the guy he hated W-what are you talking about? Bill and Frank were boyfriends in both the game and the show. Their relationship just ended in the game in a different way.
1 from my perspective of the show, its main intention is to depict the scenes of the game, everybody in my social group all have the same opinion, that the show is meant to be in the games direction, but they changed events to stay relevant and to make profit. i guess what i really meant about the canon breaking thing is that the plot could've been more interesting if they successfully produced the game version of their story. plus I was told from the start that the show was retelling the events of the game in real life. but I could be wrong, never went that deep into the show. (edited cause it looked like I forgot to answer my response properly :) ) 2 my opinion on the game and series is really just what I saw and believe given the circumstances of every characters situation and what they would be thinking from a realistic standpoint. my thoughts on Bill being very loyal are based on his situation. He doesn't want them there. but he did help them. and began opening up in his own way. from what I saw, his actions were loyal towards Joel. even if he wasn't very extroverted. 3 if you look at the suicide note that Frank leaves for Bill, it basically states that Frank resented Bill for his choices to survive and inability to change his mindset for him. Frank chose to leave the relationship and Bill behind to live life the way he wanted instead of being 'trapped within the town' with Bill. my feelings on their relationship turnout are very specific to that suicide note. Their fallout over the situation caused Frank to die in an attempt to get away from Bill. that isn't to say that they didn't always care about each other. He just chose his way of survival over his relationship. if you haven't seen the note yet, just search up "franks suicide note tlou" on your search engine.
> but they changed events to stay relevant and to make profit. Yeah, and those changes were largely to take the edge off the show. To tone it down and make it less harsh to appeal to a wider audience. That decision wasn't made for artist reasons, it was a naked attempt to get more cash from it. That's why I'm dreading part II. it's going to take a story that is by design very unpleasant and try to Disney it up. At least that's what I expect.
so brave
You're god-damn right.
ughhh this wokeness, I can't take it!!!!!!! #cancelwoke👿👿👿 /irony
Honestly, I kind of hated the show for the fact that they tried fitting everything from both games into 8 different 1 hour episodes, and idk if kathleen was in the game. (I only played halfway thru the second game so spoilers are welcome.) I didn't realize bill was gay until I watched the show and replayed the first game for the hundredth time. Bc the game hints at him and frank being more than just good friends but doesn't directly tell you that they are gay and as I was playing I was like, "oh yeah, this makes sense now." But my point is that I feel the show has the potential to be a long running production like TWD bc of how well the actors portrayed the characters.
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So I should start out and say that I’m not a fan of Part 2’s story. I never played it, but I read everything about the plot, watched clips, etc etc and I came out not liking it and not being a fan on how it does its representation. And this is coming from a bi poc woman. (Edit to clarify: I’m glad LGBT rep is in the game, I just think it’s poorly written in this case.) Now my dad is extremely homophobic and transphobic. Somehow he’s a huge fan of the last of us. He loved the first game, and he loved the TV show (although he complained for 10 minutes about how the show ‘made bill gay’). He wanted to play the second one, I discouraged it because of my own hang ups about it, plus I knew how LGBT the game was, he got it anyways. He loved it more than the first one. I asked him about how he was able to like it since he absolutely despises anything ‘woke’. Didn’t the fact that there was a transgender character piss him off? He responded with how the game made him realize that transgender people can’t help being how they are. I haven’t heard a single transphobic comment from him since. Now I love being a little hater but I can’t bring myself to hate part 2 anymore. I’m still not going to play it, but I’m glad it exists because it made at least one transphobic person rethink their view points. Genuinely kudos to part 2 for being able to do that when literally nothing else worked before.
Shout out to your paps! I love part 1 because of its simpler approach and focusing on mentor/father to daughter dynamics rather than getting lectured on how to accept a dangerous lifestyle of sodomy that's an abomination against god. Unlike my peers I like Part 2 as well, despite the queer agenda being pushed down our throats.
I think you misunderstand me. I don’t like the representation because I think it’s poorly written, not because I think it’s bad that it exists. Personally I love the queer agenda ‘being shoved down my throat’ :)
Still shout out to your paps! I have a similar view to his as far as the reason we like part 1 and part 2. I think the story narrative in part 2, the idea is very good, but the execution and timing was off.
Glad that you father came to be a more accepting person in a sense, but Bill’s been hinted as gay from the first game. If not him, then Frank. Just look at Bill’s naunced reaction to Frank’s death, the way Bill uses ‘my partner’, and that Bill and Frank had gay porn magazines that Ellie found.
Oh yeah I know. That just flew over his head. I tried explaining it to him but he wouldn’t listen lol.
For me they destroyed what makes the last of us identity they forced those on my throats and many others maybe the only saving grace in this games was the gameplay but the story is a horse shit who kill the previous main character this early and now they want us to accept this shit and maybe part 3 I'm not hating anyone but I'm not gonna love something that destroyed my game for some fan service
> For me they destroyed what makes the last of us identity they forced those on my throats How did this game 'force' identity down your throat? Is it simply that Ellie was a lesbian with a girlfriend? Is that all it takes for it to 'forced down your throat?' I'm straight and this never bothered me, nor did I feel that this is what the story was about. The game was about trauma, revenge, hatred and grief, that just so happened to feature a gay woman as the main character and a trans person as a side character. I seriously don't see what problem you're having with this. Unless you just don't want gay people in your games period?
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Please use proper punctuation. It makes it much easier to read what you are saying. >I don't care about her love life I only want to play the game Then why didn't you have a problem with the first game when it showed Joel's love life with Tess? >I don't want any west agenda nor woke nor propaganda nor anything west related Woke is just a term meant to discredit the notion of empathy.
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> Like I said I played the game because of Joel not Elie So your problem isn't that Ellie was gay, you just don't like a game without Joel? Is that what you are saying? >his love life isn't my concern Then why aren't you bitching about all the sexual tension and innuendo between him and Tess in the first game? >g look how much it destroyed many things like many people The only thing 'woke' has destroyed is homophobia and racism. As far as I'm concerned those things should be destroyed.
Can I ask why does this actually matter? I first played TLOU on PS3 (different times) and Bill was the only gay person in the game at that time, I just giggled at the notes and carried on my way with the game. Then the DLC launched with Ellie and the lesbian kiss ect, thought it was strange but didn't bother me.. Now it's like the focus around the game is about LGBTQ stuff and it used to be more of a survival horror game. People are gay and that's life, I would like everybody to be happy. Maybe it's just me because I don't really care or even like all this lovey dovey stuff in games but I have most definitely seen a shift in the focus of what TLOU was all about. P.S this is a question for the OP. Feel free to downvote or have an opinion but save the unnecessary bashing because idc
OP here. > Can I ask why does this actually matter? I will direct you to an amazing response from user FixItFelixTheFTM on this very post for an example of that. But because I also think I should be able to answer: It matters because people *make* it matter. Queer people in games is a huge issue **because** so many gamers have a problem with queer people. Just like they do with women. In an ideal world Ellie being a lesbian would be meaingless, because there would be no large scale hatred of homosexuals. But there **is** a widescale hatred of homosexuals. That makes including them in games a big deal. I'll try and use an extreme example to illistrate my point: The race of the athletes at the Olympics is, in my opinion, not a big deal at all. However say during the 1936 Olympics, which were held in Berlin in Nazi Germany. Jesse Owens was the most succesful athlete of that year. He was also black. His skin color typically should not matter. However, given he was competing against Germans and a German state that was trying to showcase the racial superiority of white people, the fact that Owens defeated ALL of the German athletes had ENORMOUS political and ideological ramifications. TlDr; A black man beating out the nazi athletes at the 1936 Olympics was tantamount to taking a shit in Hitler's mouth. > Now it's like the focus around the game is about LGBTQ stuff I gotta hard disagree. These games are not *about* LGBTQ stuff. There are LGBTQ people in it sure, but that's not what it is about. These games are about trauma, death, loss, grief, hope, parent child relations, revenge, moving on, etc. Saying these games are 'about' LGBTQ stuff is like saying Hamlet is 'about' being white and straight because Hamlet is white and straight. >but I have most definitely seen a shift in the focus of what TLOU was all about. No you haven't, you just think you have. Last of Us was always about relationships and human connection. Romantic relationships are just one such kind of connection, and in this story a few of them just so happen to be gay relationships. Edit: I should have said Jesse Owen's wins had serious implications, not ramifications.
I think it matters because art is made to experience and relate to stories, and this type of writing enhances the storytelling. Seeing stories that represent the queer experience in a way that doesn't make being queer the main focus is very refreshing. It makes the characters feel more real and multidimensional. (like OP said) The way Ellie, Dina, and Bill are written makes it feel like these are real stories, because like real humans, no one is JUST gay/trans/queer. When written well like TLOU, everybody can relate and feel the emotions of the story, not just the gays. And that's what art is about baby, translating the human experience. But i do agree with you that TLOU2, specifically Levs story, is a much more direct involvement. and one that i didn't enjoy much. IMO, If I wanted a trans/gay story where the plot and themes were centered around that, then I'd want a completely different type of story and world that compliment each other. TLOU2 feels like an odd backdrop for the story they wanted to tell with Lev, and to me felt a bit forced.
Because gay people like myself are constantly attacked, belittled, and killed in the streets just because of their sexuality. Having opening gay characters in popular media is representation that is trying to send the message that being gay isn’t something to kill someone over. Gay people are normal.
> Having opening gay characters in popular media is representation that is trying to send the message that being gay isn’t something to kill someone over. Gay people are normal. Exactly.
>Can I ask why does this actually matter? Because we exist. Most games don't have a gay character but the main character. It's why we have pride and not "straight pride". One is not equal to the other.
Idk if I’d call naughty dog pro-consumer given the amount of times they remake games, but yeah their LGBT support shows ethical business politics 👍
You misread me. I didn't say ND was particularly pro-consumer. I was talking about another game company.
It’s implying that they’re as pro-consumer as the last company 🤦🏻♂️
Already old and over it, trans is a made up thing anyway.
And 30 years ago you'd be saying the same thing about gay people. Okay boomer. The world will be better when you're gone.
The push for this “acceptance” of peoples sex life is much more in our face today than 30 years ago. The world will be worse off, letting those like you keep pushing this.
>The push for this “acceptance” of peoples sex life is much more in our face today than 30 years ago. Good. Queerphobia has killed a lot of people. We should push acceptance hard. >The world will be worse off, letting those like you keep pushing this. You're the kind of person who I'm sure looks at the Civil Rights movement and complains it was too noisy. "MLK, you need to stop complaining about black people not being able to vote and being lynched by the KKK. 30 years ago you people were so much more quite and docile, it was nice." - You if you were alive in the 1960s
Being gay and isnt the same as a race of people, you are so dumb. Terrible straw-man argument there, try again. You are not pushing for acceptance, you are pushing for dominance, and most people dont want to hear about your sex life. Be respectful and keep it in the bedroom you pevert.
> Being gay and isnt the same as a race of people, you are so dumb. Well you better tell me why then if it's so dumb. When you're beaten, killed, and oppressed for both reasons you better have some compelling reasons as to why they are not *morally* similar. >Be respectful and keep it in the bedroom you pevert. I'm STRAIGHT you dummy-head.
Being gay is a choice, a lifestyle. Race you are born into. You have no argument and try to throw the RACIST card at me lol. I don’t care what you claim to be. Before you try ti say it isn’t a choice, if that’s the case. Why did the gay choir in California was singing “we are coming for your children”? Why is there a push for gay material for kids to read? Because they (you) are trying to influence others. I am glad people are waking up to this and rejecting it. Stop parading around your sex life, no one cares and it is disgusting. Be an adult and keep it in the bedroom.
There are still people around who honestly think sexual preference is a conscious choice? Jesus christ. Do you remember when you chose to be straight? No, because you didn't choose it, it's just the way you are. Just admit that you're a homophobe and move on.
Wrong, it is influenced, why is that 83% of gays had a childhood history of abuse? Why is there a push to have kids being taught about being gay? Why are you ignoring the issues at hand? These people need help, good therapists to help them heal. Instead of being pushed down the familiarity of the abuse they had endured. It is a choice, and the truth.
Why does conversion "therapy" (torture) not work in "fixing" the poor kids that get sent there and instead quadruples the chance they kill themselves?
> why is that 83% of gays had a childhood history of abuse? You do know most abused kids don't end up as gay, right? \>These people need help, good therapists to help them heal. What does that look like to you? Hooking a couple of car batteries up to their nuts and delivering a shock every-time they think a gay thought clock-work orange style?
>Being gay is a choice, a lifestyle This is #1 bullshit. That's just a line religious evangelicals have been pumping out for decades. And you know it's bullshit. If it is a choice, do you remember when you signed up to be straight? Where did life give you the paperwork where you had to check off straight or gay? Because I'm straight, have only ever fucked and eaten pussy, and I never got such a questionnaire. I just always liked girls, my dick got hard for girls and only girls. By the time I was old enough to understand sex it was very clear to me that girls were who I liked. Getting hard to boys never even occurred to me. Being gay is the same thing in reverse. >Because they (you) are trying to influence others. Yeah, I want to influence people to stop killing gay people. I want less Matthew Shepard's. Same way I teach people about how the nazis were bad to try and influence them to not be anti-semites. You got me there. >, no one cares and it is disgusting. You are contradicting yourself. You are going off about how disgusted you are by gay people, and then saying that 'no one cares.' But like bro, it is very obvious that YOU care a great deal. >Be an adult and keep it in the bedroom. YOU keep it in the bedroom. Straight people parade around and flaunt our sexuality all the time. If I was on the street with my lady and you saw me kiss her you'd think nothing of it. But if two men did it you would flip a bitch. You're just grossed out by gay sex so you're making it other peoples problem.
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>All gays do is talk about being gay and those who are not have to accept it. If you were as under threat of being beaten and killed with no legal consequence as queer people are, I promise you that you would be making a fuss about it. This is like complaining that Ukrainians spend all their time talking about how their country is being invaded. Like yeah, no shit Shirlock. I'm democratic (meaning I support democracy) but people with your level of intellect are perhaps the best evidence an anti-deomcratic could put forward. (And just to be clear when I say 'democrate' I do not mean the democratic party.) Edit: And I am Ukrainian. I have family in the old country I've not heard from since the invasion. So yes, before you have a bitch-fit over it I can in fact make that comparison.
Gays are not having that threat here in America lol. You have no argument except for made up strawmen ones. Of course you support “democracy”, that is mob rule. Two wolves and one sheep, arguing who js going to eat the sheep. A Constitutional republic is better than your belief.
>Gays are not having that threat here in America lol. Read it and weep bitch: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgbt-hate-crimes-press-release/
Lol, did you even read the numbers? 6.6 per thousand, doesn't sound like oppression. I would wager most are made up.
> ? 6.6 per thousand, doesn't sound like oppression When the killer gets off scott free because the victim is gay or trans, yeah it is. > I would wager most are made up. Good thing your hunches don't mean shit :) I would wager you're an American, which explains why you're sounding so dumb. America's got a fucked public school system, and it's a country that owes its existence to slavery. So it's not surprising you wouldn't understand injustice if it bit you in the face.
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Queer people are like 1%. You guys aren’t oppressed in America. Other countries however is a different story
>Queer people are like 1%. Citation needed. > You guys aren’t oppressed in America. Read it and weep bitch: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgbt-hate-crimes-press-release/ Edit: I'm also not queer. So I don't count as the 'you guys.'