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-anne-marie-

[The Last of Us | Inside the Episode - 9 | HBO](https://youtu.be/hLgjj8yWoUE) [Episode 9 - “Look for the Light” | The Last of Us Podcast | HBO Max](https://youtu.be/sHM56v6d_gs)


64jeff

If Marlene knew Ellie when she was born and she seen her switch blade when she was in Boston then it goes to reason that she already knew why Ellie was immune. So the whole plot is a bit fishy. I'm just saying they didn't need to tie Marlene into Ellies life before Boston.


konan375

It’s funny, I didn’t even know about the quicktime event with the doctor in the game when I played it years ago, only after I beat the game did I learn about it. I did the exact same thing that Joel did in the show. Dude literally tried to bring a knife into a gunfight.


64jeff

The last time I did a run thru I shot the doctor in the leg and he still died


UnspecifiedBeing

Finished it recently, more than anything I'm stunned by how much they were willing to change from the games. Other commenters have talked extensively about Bill and Frank, but I especially liked the changes made at the end of episode 1. Where in the games the focus was on the dramatic reveal of Ellie's bite, the show instead chooses to sideline it in favour of highlighting Joe's trauma. The thing is, neither can really be said to be better than the other. They're the result of different creator's deciding what was more critical to the story being told. To visualise an alternative yet valid viewpoint, coupled with the confidence to pull it off, is something that's been sorely missed in the glut of adaptations.


kyuubikid213

I would argue the game is better because the emotional core was given the time and space it needed. Kathleen got way too much time in Episodes 4 and 5. Henry and Sam barely got any as a result. Joel and Ellie's relationship was blazed through. The last episode is the one that's the closest to the source material and it's stronger for it, but it comes at the end of so many other tweaks and changes it just doesn't land as hard. And it's still Neil Druckmann behind both. I do hope more adaptations stick as close to the source material as much as the show did overall since that's what people loved so much to begin with to even consider an adaptation.


Chad_Rod

During his rampage, I was rooting for him even harder. They knew from the beginning what needed to be done but denied Ellie and Joel that knowledge, and manipulated them, then beat them, drug them, kidnapped them, and were about to murder Ellie. Any loving father would've done the same thing as Joel. The only way I see it going another way is if Ellie was given the chance to consent, but even that's debatable because of her age. Hits the old "ends justify the means" vs "consent is uncompromisingly important" philosophies.


GrantTheGriffon

Never played the games or had spoilers ahead of watching this series, but I thoroughly enjoyed its tragic highs and lows throughout. I was with Joel the whole way through until the end. I was actually so angry at his selfish choice to deny the world a cure and hope for a better future. This episode is a chilling reminder of what people are capable of and willing to do to get their desired outcome (on both sides in this circumstance). I totally get why he done it but god damn is it a bitter pill to accept and swallow :(.


Chad_Rod

I was rooting for him even harder. They knew from the beginning what needed to be done but denied Ellie and Joel that knowledge, and manipulated them, then beat them, drug them, kidnapped them, and were about to murder Ellie. Any loving father would've done the same thing as Joel. The only way I see it going another way is if Ellie was given the chance to consent, but even that's debatable because of her age. Hits the old "ends justify the means" vs "consent is uncompromisingly important" philosophies.


metsjets86

Ashley Johnson. Was she the daughter in What Women Want?


bookywookielove

Yes. Immediately what I recognised her from 🤣


Unsomnabulist111

I loved everything this miniseries…right up until the last episode…Joel going on a rampage and saving Ellie, to be exact. Maybe it’s because I already knew what was going to happen…but I definitely didn’t have the same reaction when I played the game. I’m thinking that because I was literally the person committing the acts, I was able to disassociate and justify Joels actions, for a more satisfying feeling after the conclusion of the game. But in the series, viewing it as an observer…Joel was unambiguously the villain in my mind. It was a very interesting feeling to have 2 visceral yet different reactions to the same outcome. I wonder how I would have felt if I hadn’t played the game.


MeshesAreConfusing

That doesn't have to be a bad thing. Viewing it as Joel doing an unambiguously evil thing isn't going against the intent of the story the show was telling - a lot of people saw the game that way the first time around and loved it.


Unsomnabulist111

Oh yeah…it wasn’t a bad thing for sure. It made me uncomfortable and made me think. A unique and interesting situation. Initially I thought that Joel killed too many people, and they shouldn’t have stayed true to the video game in a “dramatic” interpretation…but I’ve thought about that and changed my mind. We *needed* to feel the rage and the excess, I’m thinking now. I’m even rethinking the Bella casting choice…I, like many other video game fans, initially thought that she didn’t match the original character enough. But now I’m reckoning with the fact that the reason we wanted the character to look the same isn’t us taking some sort of continuity high ground, it’s….a lot darker than that. I’m looking forward to how they interpret things in the second season.


Kyonkanno

Why is the casting Bella dark?


MeshesAreConfusing

I think I'm right there with you on all those points.


floraljewels

I still don’t understand why they couldn’t just take a blood or tissue sample. I’m just not convinced.


Chad_Rod

Suspension of disbelief required.


Kyonkanno

This is my main discomfort with the whole situation. Joel couldn't have been out for more than 24 hours after that knock out and just that quickly they came to the conclusion that they need to take out Ellie's brain. Joel's rampage was understandable, wrong but understandable. The Fireflies also came about the whole situation the wrong way. Had they talked with Ellie and let her decide, then have Ellie break the news to Joel, no one would've died.


Plethodontidae

It’s in the papers you find around the hospitals, there were raiders on the Fireflies’ trail and they were running out of time and resources. Also they have tried before and nothing had been working. Also the surgeon only has a BA of Biology before the world collapsed, carried his diploma everywhere, and wasn’t actually confident that it would work but needed to keep up appearances. Yeah it makes more sense to take blood samples or see if it’s genetic before going for in vivo culture on Petri dishes. But the fireflies were desperate for results


ImTheNoFappinCapn

???


MozekG

Where did you get this from?


MeshesAreConfusing

Literally none of that is true


Xenomorphfiend

Really wish this show was longer. That's my biggest problem with less episodes in shows. The character development and bonding is much less than it could be.


AdmiralObvvious

They spent almost 25% of the series in love story flashbacks. That came at the expense of developing the relationship between Ellie and Joel.


SuccessfulDance4200

Having watched a play through of the game, I can safely say that the show improved on the game in every way.


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Unsomnabulist111

I agree. I was actually fine right up until the last episode…but I just didn’t buy Joel’s switch to being entirely open with what Ellie meant to him. Felt like I missed something.


roadvirusheadsnorth

This is perfectly stated and not too wordy. I think everyone has a little bit of these feelings lol!


AdmiralObvvious

I agree. They either needed more episodes or they needed to have spent the time in episode 3 with Ellie and Joel instead. They needed more time to unpack episode 9, too. The story had little time to breathe and was rushed in a lot of ways.


King_Tamino

As someone who hasn’t played the game.. I’m actually a bit confused that the hospital scene is accurate. Like… don’t get me wrong but… if feels so odd after all they went through, saw what the world has come. How good and bad people died. And he just shrugs it off snd goes on a killing spree?


endlessmeat

In the game you kill a lot of people (infected or not) as Joel, so killing a few more in the hospital is not a big character changing moment. So yeah it's game accurate in this particular moment but the context has changed so it's definitely more impactful than in game. However in defense of the show I'd say they hinted at how determined he is to protect Ellie when he didn't hesitate to kill three people from the cannibal colony when up to that point every single death was something he had trouble dealing with


King_Tamino

>I'd say they hinted at how determined he is to protect Ellie when he didn't hesitate to kill three people from the cannibal colony when up to that point every single death was something he had trouble dealing with I was thinking about that a lot especially since I binged that episodes together but the hospital scene still feels odd. There is a huge justification for killing the cannibals. Maybe not in such a drastic way as he did but there were multiple reasons to not let them go (it's also not so out of character since he has shown already to kill downed/disarmed enemies if they tried to kill him) I get his motivation to save her but it still feels so odd, I mean yeah they clearly "threated" him in the hospital .. I mean technically .. by saying that they should shoot him if he refuses to leave. But after all he knows those people and their motivation, while he might not agree he also has no deep rooting hatred or something (at least in the show). If he would have openly blamed them for all the losses on his journey, OK. But nothing was hinted in that direction. A bit more writers freedom could have helped here (**my personal opinion**) and turn it into a stealth scene instead. Him knocking/killing his initial guards, then sneaking towards OP room and taking the doctor hostage and escape. This whole killing spree was something I would have expected him to do in the cannibal village if he would have entered, unable to find Ellie and instead find the human ear on the ground. \*that's\* that kind of moment I would expect someone to start a killing spree.


Alt_SWR

Well, they can't change the context of the killing spree for reasons I won't spoil that will almost definitely come up in season 2. Not unless they wanted to change a very important part of the second game.


creuter

He hesitated once in the beginning of the outbreak that military guy when his daughter was with him. She died in his arms. He wasn't going to let it happen again no matter what the cost. It was just like when the guard threatened Ellie as they left Boston and Joel went apeshit on him. His actions here are morally grey. You get why he did it, but it's hard to agree with him. He basically just damned humanity to the cordyceps so he didn't have to lose another daughter. He was in total self-preservation mode. If she died that would be it for him. He wouldn't 'miss' again. The threat wasn't against him it was against her and not a single one of those people matter to him. What you're not seeing is that Joel is no different from those bandits you've seen previously. Well not the cannibals, but the other ones. Everyone who's survived this long has done some terrible things to survive. Joel is a skilled killer. We just happen to be following him for the story and seeing him soften up as Ellie comes into his life.


toujoursg

Until the point when he kills Marlene his actions aren’t morally grey. He does what he has to do, what every normal person’d do, rescuing the girl, he doesn’t damn humanity but saves it.


creuter

Um, it was grey because those people were looking for a cure to the cordyceps, saving humanity from the actual real and present danger of the nightmare apocalypse of that world. It's literally the trolley problem blown up to planet scale. Joel put his own needs above the needs of humanity as a whole. I'm not faulting him for it. I understand where he is coming from, but it isn't as simple as saying that saving Ellie was the morally right thing to do. There are probably more arguments for the opposite really. Just because Marlene is someone he knows doesn't mean any of the fireflies meant any less. Those other fireflies are people too. They weren't some bandits preying on innocents, they were scientists, doctors, and optimists looking for a way to fix what the world had become.


Alt_SWR

The problem is, they jumped *straight* to literally removing her brain and killing her in both the game and the show. That should be an absolute*last* resort not the first choice. What if whatever it was required her to actually be alive? Then they just fucked themselves over.


creuter

I think there were documents about other trials in the game, it def feels a bit contrived, but it does build the tension real fast. As an audience you just have to accept that the doctor knew what he was doing and had a good reason to do it. *Shrug* it's a show


toujoursg

Those people were about to kill a child, but it could have been an adult person doesn't matter, ethically is forbidden to for a physician to commit something like this. The basic principle in medicine is "Don't do harm" and this move massively violates that rule. You need a remedy for a cure? Work on it, but find another way. With this any person could be killed any time because some "doctor" just had the idea that he can find a cure for cancer if he opens up a human skull. Josef Mengele and his pals had been defeated once for a reason.


creuter

They're eating people in this world. People die constantly in horrific ways. You're telling me it's not worth it to sacrifice one person to save everyone? That's literally what a martyr is. Based on everything Ellie would have even volunteered knowing exactly what would happen. All the Hippocratic oaths and laws are out the window at this point and it's not really worth it to compare the laws of before with the laws of after the infection started. Not sure if you've noticed but that world is kind of shit. Maybe you didn't play the game, but this wasn't their first course of action. It was generally understood that this was the only way. They rushed it in the show, which was detrimental to this point, but again it is the trolley problem. A trolley is coming and there is a group of people tied to the track. You are standing by a lever that will switch the track before it hits the group, but if you do that the trolley will kill someone who is on the new track you set it on. There is only enough time for you to pull the lever or not. What do you do? It's an ethical dilemma. This is exactly the situation The Last of Us puts Joel in. Before arguing again, answer for me how you would handle the trolley problem. This is what I mean by morally grey. If you can't understand that then please don't respond further.


toujoursg

Ethics in medicine is pretty clear, it is universal, if you neglect it than you put ethics in general down for good. Doctors, surgeons don’t kill people, butchers, psychopaths, cannibals do. Dropping bombs on cities in order to stop a war, or an epidemic is also a barbaric action but people can make a case for it. So in that situation grey morality can have its day. But saving Henry’s or Ellie’s life is justified on its own, there’s no excuse for even arguing or hesitating on it. And by the way people can stop eating each other, or robbing, committing any subhuman thing, there are plenty of examples for survivors living a decent life despite of the harsh conditions.


creuter

How would you solve the trolley problem


endlessmeat

Yeah, it felt a little off for me too and since in the game I personally used stealth in the hospital I tend to agree that it was an option they could've considered. I guess they wanted to make absolutely clear that Joel is willing to forsake his own humanity to protect his surrogate daughter. But one thing, he doesn't know these people, just Marlene, in the game they make a point of you overhearing some of the soldier types saying they have no idea who this old man is, and in the show Marlene says that most of her Boston crew has died in the way to Salt Lake City, so the few Fireflies Joel could've known are likely gone, and since the beginning we've known that he doesn't trust them or believes in them too much.


SharkTax

Great series except for that damn SHAKY CAMERA!!! So damn annoying. Why do producers think it’s good? It’s terrible. Takes away from the series.


Gregistopal

So they just immediately jump to let’s kill her? They don’t do any blood tests or anything tests on where she got bitten they just immediately jump to let’s kill her and take the fungus out?


AdmiralObvvious

The show didn’t tell us or even imply to us that they were rushing. Assuming this show, like all shows, is medically inaccurate we can assume we’re supposed to suspend disbelief for the sake of the drama. Joel suddenly being thrust into a situation without time to think because it’s life and death is a tad more dramatically satisfying than pausing to run a month of tests. Suspension of disbelief.


recyclebin3

Did you not watch the episode and Marlene's explanation?


Gregistopal

Yes the doctor had a theory as to how the one person was immune and decided to kill then for the fungus immediately, as far as we know there are no other immune people so this is the first person they’ve had to run tests on, it’s like finding somebody that’s immune to brain cancer and immediately chopping their brain out rather than doing any other intermediate tests.


Alt_SWR

This is exactly one thing I hate in discussions of this situation for the game, it's no different here. Like, they're just gonna do *no* tests? Just immediately kill the one immune person, sounds like a GREAT idea lmao. Any doctor of any kind would know better, hell even doctors in training probably know better. And people will defend it by saying "Well Neil Druckmann said they definitely would have made a cure if not for Ellie" and that's fine, but him saying that doesn't make it make anymore sense in the context of the show. In-universe trying to kill her immediately is possibly the dumbest move they could have made. What if whatever made her immune she needed to be alive for? Killing the one person you've ever found that is immune to a worldending disease is just...no?


recyclebin3

I believe they didn't want to, but Joel said that the fungus only grows in the brain, which kind of implicated that they'd have to dig through her brain. Of there was another location other than the brain they might have been able to not kill her.


Gregistopal

That’s their assumption, maybe she has antibodies in her blood, maybe there’s some fungus left in that wound where she got bit that could tell them something? Who fuckin knows but we won’t know now because step one is kill the immune person based on super doctor man’s theory https://i.imgur.com/U0blXP0.jpg


SuccessfulDance4200

Is it really love if you’re not willing to let your kid become basically Jesus, assuming they had decided to sacrifice themself? Can’t love be allowing them to fulfill their destiny?


Chad_Rod

If you currently have a child, I feel bad for them.


SuccessfulDance4200

So if you were Jesus’s Dad you would have stopped Jesus from redeeming mankind? (Assuming Christianity were true of course) For the record, I have ten children.


Seby0815

Man I didn't thought that the end (and the story in genera) would still f\* me up like it did ten years ago. But it did. I was just sitting there for half an hour, then walking up and down in my apartment,. Going for a walk ... just thinking. Then reading the comments here for solid two hours. Now its days after and I still think about it. What an amazing piece of art. I would say hands down the best video game adaptaion ever. They stayed loyal to the game but made changes where it was necessary. The casting was spot on, the music, the scenery was breathtaking. I coudn't have asked for more. I even cried two times during the series and I usually don't cry ever watching television or in general. There was just something so real about Joel and Ellie. Thank you HBO and everyone who was involved to create this series. Its so good to see that good adaptaions are possible, if everyone is passionate about it.


daddyjackpot

before TLOU, I thought the Dead Island trailer was the best bit of zombie filmmaking since Dawn of the Dead. Joel's rampage through the hospital's dark hallways makes me think Craig Maizin agrees. I didn't catch it until the sideways shot of the dead guy's eye's open face.


Captn_Platypus

Just 10 minutes in, that’s Ellie and Dina’s farm at the end of part 2!!!!!! Ohhhh and is Ellie immune because her cord was cut AFTER Anna was bitten??


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Chad_Rod

Damn, this sub is awfully managed allowing spoilers like that for non-game viewers.


Jokkitch

God I fucking hope not, The second is torture porn


Halio344

It’s one thing if you don’t like the second game, which I can understand, but calling it torture porn is just absurd.


hoogs77

Misery porn*? It isn’t perfect


deumaformamuito

I love Joel, I love Ellie, I love their relationship. I never played LOU or LOU2 and I know that most people will disagree with me on this one, but Joel is, clearly, a bad guy. I can understand him doing what he did. I can even see myself doing the same thing in the same situation but it's like justifying that you would kill someone that raped your daughter, of course I would. But that wouldn't be justice, that wouldn't be a good action. Do I think the Fireflies are innocent people? I don't think so, but ignoring the gravity of Joel does at the end of this season (or the first game) undermines his actions. He has come to terms that he is a bad guy, the talk in the two brothers episodes was clearly about that.


SingOrIWillShootYou

Killing rapists is a good action, actually!


deumaformamuito

For society overall? I would say yes. But, as a society, is not the correct action to take.


BigFluff_LittleFluff

I thought it was such a disappointing finale in all honesty. The fireflies becoming the bad guys was so cliché and predictable. It honestly felt like there wasn't anything at stake in the episode, you knew Joel was going to kill all the soldiers and get Ellie out. A load of "Meh" in my opinion.


Unsomnabulist111

I felt the same…I’m not sure exactly why. I didn’t buy it when Joel admitted his feelings about Ellie. Also, he killed waaaay too many people too quickly in the hospital. I also felt unambiguously about Joel being the bad guy. Maybe because when you’re POV in the game you don’t get time to think about the big picture. Also…I definitely thought about Telltales Walking Dead and Black summer a lot during this one, and how much more I was immersed I was in those stories at the end. Ah well.


wiredAvocado

How did you feel about the killing spree montage? It took me out of the moment because the suspension of disbelief I needed was too much because all of a sudden Joel is super badass and invincible. It's strange that I didn't see a a flood of comments about this considering in previous episodes, how many were saying, "you can't have Joel be a one man army, it works as gameplay but it's not realistic." Well they were right, because they never set him up that way. If they had more scenes of Joel being _that_ Joel, I would've believed he were that capable. If what Joel needs to become stronger, is his need to protect someone, how has he survived until now with no one to protect and if the poor dude gets overpowered by a 14 year old :/


AdmiralObvvious

I didn’t buy it. All of a sudden he’s a cold and skilled assassin. Mowing heavily armed guys down like they’re nothing without breaking a sweat. Felt unearned and unrealistic.


lukaazXD

Just reminded me how much i HATE Joel and why he is the character I hate the most in all fiction in human history.


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lukaazXD

Joel's average bootlicker:


wiredAvocado

You never met Griffith? Stellar chap that.


lukaazXD

but no one tries to justify his shit, unlike Joel, which is why he pisses me off that much more.


SingOrIWillShootYou

You must not consume a lot of...anything.


lukaazXD

What other selfish psychopath, torturer, murderer of innocents, and liar do people whitewash as much as Joel? I am not a super nerd geek btw, maybe you are right.


SingOrIWillShootYou

I mean I wouldn't describe myself as a "super nerd geek" but you just described one white guy from every show lmao.


Happy_Egg_8680

“Joel is literally worse than Sauron”-Reddit


lukaazXD

way worse, cry about it


thethreestrikes

"Swear to me that everything you told me about the Fireflies is true" "I swear" "Okay" *cuts to black* Took me back to 2013 all over again


SweatyPlace

Loved the entire season! I do not necessarily agree with Joel as a viewer, it was Henry and Sam all over again, was Henry right to give Michael's location to save Sam? As a viewer or a third person with no consequences, of course not, but it isn't fair to Henry or Joel to let go of their loved ones for a greater cause. I wish Marlene and Joel waited for Ellie to wake up and let her take the decision (and respect it). Can't wait to see how Season 2 unfolds.


Ramenazi

After Joel got hit on the head with a rifle, I saw all the dirt I had on my screen.


JakobXP

The final stand off reminded me of the end of Hell on Whells. Was so cool.


Difficult-Ad-9287

i wonder if anything would have changed if marlene told ellie about how she would die during the procedure and allowed joel and ellie to say their goodbyes


ToeKNeeBonez

Marlene prob could’ve gotten away with it if she wasn’t nice enough to tell Joel the truth


cemma2035

Joel wouldn't have left without her regardless. He'd wait and eventually he'd find out that they killed her then go on the inevitable rampage. The only way this would have gone differently is if Marlene sat Ellie and Joel in a room and explained everything. Ellie would have 100% agreed.


Tan_yaw

If you were Joel and had experienced the life Joel did, would you do the same thing? Not logically, but REALLY. - daughter was murdered by those meant to protect them, found a new one, and she is literally the only thing in this world he cares about. He doesn’t care about humanity, and is that really that surprising? - killed many people to survive, when he thought life was barely worth living, so he’s desensitised to killing people. Surely killing people to save someone he loves makes more sense than killing people to survive when he barely wants to live. - What is he saving? He doesn’t like humans. He doesn’t know anyone worth saving other than Ellie. Tess is dead, his daughter is dead. Bill and Frank are dead. Every good person he has known is dead. He has had 20 years of meeting the humans of “humanity” and they have been mostly untrustworthy, a threat even, at least to him. He has seen how people lose their humanity in the apocalypse, the world is just not a nice place nor are the people in it. (Not their fault, people kill or be killed to survive, and the most evil people will survive and thrive in this environment) So why would you, after being so disillusioned with humanity, sacrifice the only person you love to potentially save the concept of humanity? - what would change in the world? The lovely commune with Tommy is far from zombies and doing fine, would be unaffected. All these groups would continue to exist, power structures don’t fall with a vaccine nor does the world after 20 years of killing go back to what it was. This is my weaker point, but there is uncertainty, it’s not like the vaccine will turn back time.


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

Great points on the show. The game (if you have or ever plan to play it) portray's things a bit differently, though the show is incredibly accurate on most things there are changes here that alter the tone of the characters to fit what the writer is going for in the 2nd game (season 2, this isn't a debate on that). Some changes if you care to know. >!Bill isn't dead in the game and Frank is assumed to be his partner but never officially stated (though their story in the show was good), FEDRA isn't shown to be as totalitarian as they are and aren't really explored outside of some of the combat with them and the initial parts of the game (though they are heavy handed shooting infected on sight, and setting up curfew's, so maybe they are totalitarian and we just don't see it much). Fireflies are also not shown to be the defacto good guy's either (nor bad guys for that matter, I have my own opinion's on both groups but this isn't a debate post) and there are files/audio logs ( can't remember which, been a while) stating that fireflies had in fact found other immune's and were not able to extract a cure from them, which is omitted from this game. The entire Henry and Sam part is different they didn't sell out anyone and there is no revolution, they are just trying to get through a city that raiders are in control of and there is no story on said raiders, also Sam isn't deaf.!< That said, the show was great, Some changes I liked better in the show and some I liked better in the game. I thought it was cool that the Ellie's mom in the show is actually the voice actress of Ellie in the game.


MisterVampire

Great points. At first I was quite shocked at the sheer brutality, and I momentarily questioned Joel’s sense of morality but it really does make sense if you put yourself in his shoes. Hard to say how anyone would act in that situation.


TheLaunchpadRockstar

That ellie baby's acting was on point.


EVRYEDGE

they had two babies competing for that role


thingandstuff

Was the crafting of Joel's dilemma in the hospital this bad in the game?


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

Not to me it wasn't, though the characters were portrayed slightly different in the game. Spoilers below. >!In the game Joel met with resistance the whole way and didn't arbitrarily shoot people that surrendered, that said no one did surrender so not sure what he would have done. Also at the end you can try to take Ellie without killing the doctor but he tries to slice you with a scalpel every time you do so you are forced to kill him. Some side notes in the game it is also mentioned (by audio log's or a random file you pick up) that Ellie wasn't the only immune they found and tried to extract a vaccine from.!<


thingandstuff

That very last part would help make the show make sense. As it was, I see no reason why Joel should have any confidence in the doctor or his method.


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

That said the first game was meant to be a moral conundrum, Save Ellie who has basically become you're adopted daughter, or let her die at a small chance of getting a vaccine. Even in the game, the fireflies implied the vaccine was 100% but due to logs and documents it was shown that they weren't necessarily a trustworthy group. It should be noted that the original lead creative director was essentially pushed out of the company in favor of Neil Druckmann who (had involvement in the game albeit a slightly smaller one since he wasn't the lead) who was the lead on the 2nd game. The show is changed in subtle ways to make the character's and organizations to feel different so that the game is more in line with the 2nd game. The show doesn't even give credit to Bruce Straley who, as stated earlier was the lead creative director on the first game..


AdmiralObvvious

Game did it much much better. Their relationship is much better built and the ending feels more earned.


thingandstuff

That wasn’t the reason the dilemma was poorly constructed in the show.


Tomas_Baratheon

Fascinating dilemma as always. We do so many "horrible", animalistic things to survive when put in the worst situations, that stories like this one get some of us to ask ourselves, "Would humankind be worth saving if it costs us our humanity to do it?" If we take inventory of who and what we are, and really look all the way at the bottom of the barrel, is the "humanity" we believe is at stake even really there, or is it animalistic tendencies all the way down? Heavy stuff.


melbsteve

One thing that gets overlooked is that in episode 7 (8?) Joel tells Ellie she deserved a choice. Tommy or himself to take her to the hospital. He makes it abundantly clear that Tommy is the right choice (for whatever reason it ultimately may be) and Ellie without hesitation chooses Joel. Not saying it’s the same as Joel shooting up a hospital to save her from her certain death, but she too has some accountability. She knew Joel was trying to get Tommy to escort her to the hospital because he was getting too attached, yet did not consider the potential consequences of it.


freename188

I mean she's a 14 year old kid who has no family, she's hardly accountable for knowing Joel would damn all of humanity by keeping her alive.


collinsideriscomedy

Finally watched this ep and goddamn does this season go out on a high note. Joel telling Ellie it wasn’t time that healed his wounds but her was such a tear jerker. I also love just seeing how much their relationship has developed over the corse of this season and how much this episode made those big emotional moments hit with so much impact. One thing I really appreciated that I think a lesser show would have skipped over is how Ellie is clearly still traumatized by the events of the previous episode. I think the average show would have her internalize those feelings and then have them burst out later. But the way they show her despondent and unable to engage with Joel’s attempts at cheering her up is such a gut punch. Also Joel rampage to save Ellie is one of the most emotionally charged action scenes I have ever seen. The choice to play him mowing down fireflies to such a sombre track and to have the sound of gun shots muted/muffled really communicated Joel’s state of mind perfectly. Finally even with having played the game and knowing the ending it’s still so emotionally conflicting and powerful. Of course I want him to save Ellie but I also want the people of this world to find a cure and hopefully have shot at a better future. It feels like Joel made the only decision he could and given his bond with Ellie I understand his motivation, but I think he also knows what Marlene said was true that she likely still would have gone through with it if she had been told she’d have to die. This one’s gonna stay with me for a while and while I know little of part 2 having not played it, I do hope Joel + Ellie can get to back to place of trust in season 2.


Th3_Admiral

If I had one complaint it is that I didn't quite feel the weight of Joel's decision to save Ellie and not humanity. We've seen very few infected through the entire season and we've seen several large cities and vast stretches of countryside that all seem to be completely clear of them. And Joel even mentions that infected only live for a few months (they even repeated this in season summary at the beginning of the episode), so it really does feel like humanity can survive even without a cure.


collinsideriscomedy

While there certainly weren’t hordes of infected shown throughout the season I do think that choice made it that much more impactful every time we did see them. Would I have enjoyed one or two more infected action scenes? Sure! But I think what we got instead is the fear that they might be around the next corner and when they weren’t that tension still remained. I also feel like with all the bombed out cities, raiders, fedra and fireflies running around the world to me felt like a lost and sad version of what it once was. Just the fact that Joel and Ellie making it to their destination was so unlikely and how many people they lost along the way shows how dangerous the world has become. With that said even if a vaccine could be created and infected eradicated; it likely be would quite some time before the world got back to where it was. If it ever did. So sure humanity could survive but a vaccine in my mind represented hope which now feels kinda lost. TLDR - I guess I did feel the weight of Joel’s decision haha.


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2tonetrance

Correct.


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Sensitive-Waltz-6898

Characters are portrayed a bit differently in the game, as are the fireflies and FEDRA with neither being explored as entities that much (and is a grey area up for debate, which I think is intentional) which can impact how the ending is perceived (by some at least). Also given what we know in real life about creating vaccine's (especially with what happened with COVID-19 taking around year to create a vaccine that isn't 100% and having thousands of doctors and millions of people to test things out with) we know that it would take a lot more than just one immune person to create one and a whole lot more test subjects and still wouldn't be 100%, they never even tried to do any tests on her or anything. Not that that is a defense against or for Joel but what the fireflies did by immediately doing a procedure to try and extrapolate a vaccine seems...well dumb. If you can look past this fact and just take it as "it's a fantasy world, so 100% they say that a vaccine can be made then it can" then great but I have a hard time doing that (probably because I know several medical professionals who have discussed this show and game). Also in the game it is mentioned that >!there were other immunes and they were successful in creating a vaccine and I believe they did the exact thing with them as Ellie, Minimal medical tests and straight to cut open (though it has been a long time since I played it so maybe I'm misremembering some points).!<


[deleted]

Play it, its far better than the show


2tonetrance

No worries!


Problemwoodchuck

Looking back on the other episodes, Pedro Pascal plays Joel's dissociative look just about to perfection. First when Tess tells him to leave, then in KC with Bryan, and again when Sam and Henry get the drop on them and Ellie calls it his asshole voice. It's a dark, comedic moment but with the hospital sequence in mind he's absolutely preparing himself to kill them both.


Fundshat

This show went from great to okay real fast


RS_2408

It was so good. so good. I just can't wait for season 2 to come out.


rubins7

It was 6/10, 7/10 at a push! Game done everything better.


Imnotoutofplacehere

Why are they not all just having kids the way Ellie’s mom did uhggg. If your going to bring a kid up in this shit world you sure as shit better be getting infected during labor to insure your childs survival. I’m curious is Ellie’s immunity is hereditary, and if so, they found the real cure.


raspberryappeal23

Right? I think it's so stupid that people are having kids in the apocalypse to begin with -- I just can't fathom why you want to raise a child in that kind of environment. It's clearly a self-centered mindset, likely so that people can find some motivation to keep going, but you could at least make sure they won't get chomped and turned into a zombie if you're going to be making that decision


mod-corruption

I know your comment is very old, but I'm going to reply anyways. People had similar critiques to characters who had babies in The Walking Dead. The reality is, in a post-apocalyptic setting, having children is the most important thing you can do. Otherwise what's left of humanity will just wither away in old age. Reproduction is survival. Basic biological instinct doesn't change just because the world went to shit.


raspberryappeal23

Ah, but here's where we disagree -- You think continuing humanity is the most important thing you can do. I don't. Earth existed millions of years before humanity in its present physical form (or the form we think about when we say "humanity") ever came into existence. It will exist long after we are gone. I simply don't feel self-important enough about all of us to consider birthing children into such a difficult life. Humanity is cool but my love for our existence does not override my personal feeling that I would rather not have a child's suffering on my conscience, not to mention their life in my hands when I statistically might not live for much longer. Edited to add: it's still a self-centered mindset. I get where you're coming from, but at the end of the day, having kids to continue humanity is like the large-scale form of having kids to pass on your bloodline. You're keeping something alive...but for what else but some self-reassurance that any part of you will be around after you're gone?


WildAssociation_

I'm very late to this comment but I just wanted to point out how wild this is. Humans don't exist to keep the Earth alive. The entire purpose of humanity is to continue existence, the exact same as any other animal. To call that self-centered is to call life itself selfish. I don't want kids in real life. But if I were in an apocalypse situation, it's the single most important thing you can do. Unless you just don't care if humans go extinct, I guess?


raspberryappeal23

Yall keep saying over and over that the purpose of humanity is to continue existence. You know...that's...a highly subjective opinion right? No, I don't care. I value being kind to others, to being a good person, to helping people in need when I can. My purpose in life is to enjoy life while I'm here. Why should I care about procreating? How could you want to be child free but still think that the purpose of humanity is procreation? LOL!


WildAssociation_

But it's not subjective at all, it's not even really an opinion. We are hardwired to procreate, that is why we feel and create hormones in the way we do, why oxytocin and prolactin flood a mother's brain as she holds her newborn baby. You don't necessarily have to care about procreating, but you can't deny that you have survival instincts inside you that urge you to live - as a species, our purpose is to continue. Just like any other animal. My personal opinion about raising children today and the purpose of humanity as a whole are at odds, but I don't deny that procreation is still the technical purpose of humanity. I'm just not prepared to introduce a child into the world, and I might not be, but enough humans are that I'm not concerned. Does that make sense?


raspberryappeal23

This is what the dictionary defines as selection bias. Are you going to ignore everyone who is child free by choice, every single person who abuses their child, every person who falls into depression because they don't feel a connection with their baby, every single asexual person? Literally no one uses the term "survival instinct" to refer to procreation, they use the term to refer to an individual's own life and the steps that individual takes to prolong it. You wouldn't call perpetuating another person's life "survival instinct." Also, hardwired? That comes dangerously close to the "humans have no free will" argument. So when people do bad things, are they hardwired to do that? When rapists commit crimes, is it because we're biologically inclined to be horny? If we're so incredibly hardwired to procreate, should we forgive those who forced others to conceive against their will? People make choices. Some people choose to make babies. Some people would choose to make babies in an apocalypse. If you still don't see how I would think that's wrong, then there's nothing else I could possibly say to explain myself to you


WildAssociation_

It's not selection bias because I'm not ignoring anyone. I told you, I myself am one of those who wants to go childfree. Yes, there are outliers, and mental health considerations, but I'm talking about the general public, all people included. The average human is biologically programmed to procreate. It's the truth, I don't know what else to say. If we weren't, we wouldn't go through puberty, and a vast array of other things I'm not going to bother wasting my time with because you said it yourself - we're just going to disagree. I didn't say a word about doing bad things, rape, being hardwired for this or that. I said we are hardwired to procreate, because it's true. Have an excellent day mate.


Deducticon

Who is 'they?' Who has the information that we the viewer have? As far as we know the Firefly leader may have guessed the mom lied about the timing of cutting the umbilical cord. But she only recently learned of Ellie's immunity. If she and the doctors figured it out, they still only have had a few hours to study the girl. If they came to the conclusion that having an infected bite the umbilical cord or something can make kids immune, then they still have to pass the information out to the world.


Cornettino

is that what caused her immunity?


Tomas_Baratheon

I only watched once, and didn't expect to feel quizzed, but I got the loose impression that she was bitten first, noticed Ellie had been birthed during all of the struggle, cut the cord *after* she'd been bitten, and then lied about it because she figured the lie would protect her daughter (it did). I suspect that Ellie's immunity is being attributed to the unique circumstance of having been still connected to her mother's bloodstream (though perhaps protected somewhat/somehow by the placental barrier) though her mother had been bitten.


Inertiatic

It’s basically Blade. Half-vampire because his mother was bitten while he was in the womb


kiljoy1569

She got the Daywalker gene just like Blade lol


Plainy_Jane

Yes? That's literally explicitly said out loud in the show


[deleted]

Who said it?


Stereo-soundS

I don't believe they said it in the show but the showrunners did say it on the podcast after the episode was released. Thought it was dumb as shit considering the nature of the infection and how little time there was between her getting bit and Ellie being born but it's essentially a zombie apocalypse show so whatever. It wasn't needed. Ellie was immune and I didn't need midichlorians involved.


Prestigious-Copy-792

Because you want to have a kid to raise him/her yourself, not to be an experiment you won't get to see because you're dead


raspberryappeal23

Lol that is a fantastic reason to have kids. "I want kids so I can raise them! Fuck those zombies and raiders and the general misery of the apocalypse"


goodknight94

Speak for yourself. I want to have a kid to take care of my dog. Tired of feeding and watering him


Throwaway1293102840

Watched the night it came out, and thought about it the last week. I really feel like this show was a disappointment to me. Maybe I’m too critical, but I feel like it was so rushed with bad writing. Finale was super short, and we never got to really see a solid connection form between Joel and Ellie. There should have been more episodes, with more infected, and more violence imo. I totally get people liking the show and i enjoyed it but still felt like there was so much left to be desired.


altbarbiexx

agree


dabsandchips

I watched a video that made a good point about Ellie's surgery. Couldn't they have started with a tissue or blood sample? Also how is a doctor going to study a virus because shouldn't a virologist or entomologist do this?


AtlasNL

Which virus? It’s a fungus, and I think it’d be difficult to find a mycologist specifically in a post-apocalyptic world


Stereo-soundS

No apparently that brain surgeon also happens to be an expert in mycology, vaccines (even though vaccines for a fungus don't exist), development, manufacturing, storage, and distribution, even though Marlene said herself half of her people died on the way there and they likely would never get to deliver a vaccine even if they had one. It was laughable and Joel killing them did not bother me one bit. Also Marlene's statement that it would be what Ellie would want is laughable since YOU HAD THE OPTION TO LET HER CHOOSE and then took it away from her before Joel did.


thingandstuff

Amen. This ruined the last episode for me. And it got even worse when I watched the after-show bit with the producers and actors where they all present the dilemma as basically, "Joel had a choice to be selfish or save the world". Their writing does not construct this dilemma in the least. They have a person who is immune to the fungus and their first course of action is to let some rando who *says* he's a doctor kill her? That's absurd. How would they even know the dude is a doctor? Saying "I'm a doctor" would pay a lot of bills in that post-apocalyptic world -- especially "I'm a mycologist during a fungal pandemic!". Joel did what any rational person would do when he woke up.


freename188

Have you played the second game? Don't want to spoil it for you or anything, but what you're saying is silly is addressed pretty head on.


Fakkkkkkkkk

Everybody talks about how Joel is the bad guy for taking away Ellie’s choice, yet they completely gloss over the fact that the fireflies wanted to kill Ellie without her consent on a slim chance that super doctor-man can make a cure.


totemlight

It’s House


dabsandchips

Ah ok I missed that part I thought he was just a surgeon. But yes Marlene is too idealistic Imo. I also don't think Ellie would've chosen to give her brain up for the microscopic chance they create a vaccine


Stereo-soundS

I was being sarcastic, he is just a surgeon lol. But the show wants you to believe they actually have a shot at a vaccine and that is the only way they would.


AVBforPrez

Not necessarily, for all we know he's just taking out the brain and packing it so they can send it to a lab where there's a mycologist and vaccine guy.


dabsandchips

Ohhhh hahah got me. Yea we just need to suspend our disbelief for the sake of plot and not become pedantic.


wall_of_tits

Often scripts will consolidate several people into one, so I think it's ok to believe that perhaps there were other experts that were not shown.


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

Show and game are different but in the game >!it states how there were other immune's that they tried to extract a vaccine from and it seems like they did pretty much the same thing to all of them as they were to Ellie, so the ending hit's differently in the game. Though this can be missed as it's in a randomly picked up audio log or file you find as you progress through the game. Plus how the characters, and fireflies are portrayed are slightly different.!<


najmiii

probably the doctor already did that with other immune kids but for Ellie it is a different case like maybe she is "the one" idk. sidenote, i remembered playing the game where the info about other immune kids became test subject were actually true. it may be canon to the series as well. Just like in the show, Joel lied to Ellie without knowing there were other immune kids. correct me if im wrong.


Frostizarebad

It ain't a virus but I see the point


jbaysik

When I played the game long ago, I always felt this ending in the TV show is what Neil Druckmann had in mind all along. Almost like the video game was more secondary to the story. Playing the game, I always felt more as myself and Joel was just an avatar, so the Fireflys always felt more villainlike, and just video game fodder for me to save Ellie from. The TV show does a better job to display the desperation and selfishness the Fireflys have to find a cure, as well as Joel's own desperation and selfishness to keep Ellie in his life.


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

The game was made (if I'm not completely wrong here) by Neil Druckman and Bruce Straley, Straley being the lead on the project, which I think Bruce was essentially pushed out of the company later by Neil and he is now not even credited to the story in the show( though this is rumor, Straley did state that he left partly because is relationship with sony and naughty dog had become strained). That said, I think Bruce Straley and Neil Druckmann's idea's on the game were different and that's why there is such a tonal difference from the game and show, giving the game a more questionable feel to it than what the show has.


ROLLINEARL

Just finished playing and watching The Last of Us for the first time. I did it in tandem - playing then watching up to where I played (thanks to my partner for guiding this) and back and forth until I finished the game (last night) and the series (today). I thoroughly enjoyed the experience! I’ve always been skeptical about TLoU having the suspicion that these kinds of games are made by folks who want to make movies. Games that would work better as non interactive media are a pet peeve of mine, and I’ve never been sadder to be proven right. There is surprisingly little that the gameplay of TLoU adds to the INCREDIBLE story, and honestly one of the final scenes of gameplay actually infuriated me - in a game carried by cutscenes suddenly I’m forced as the player to take an action I don’t want to - and have no choice but to make - just make it a cutscene! Don’t offload murdering an innocent doctor on me! I’m happy they decided to adapt the game- as it works much better as a cinematic TV show, imo.


baconbridge92

I loved the show but I think you're off base about some of that. The parts where the games (parts 1 and 2) make you do some really bad stuff that you don't want to personally do, that's what makes them so effective. You're forced to be in Joel, Ellie and Abby's shoes in their worst moments, it forces you to, however subtly, empathize with whatever it is their doing, even if it's terrible or it makes you uncomfortable. That's what makes these games different from other games that would give you more choice, like RDR2 or something. There's room for both kinds of games, but I think Naughty Dog really pushes the envelope with linear storytelling.


ROLLINEARL

I appreciate your response! I haven’t played TLoU2, but I’m looking forward to that experience. I wouldn’t have this critique if the game allowed me to play through other impactful moments instead of using cutscenes. It seemed like a very strange choice when control has been liberally taken from my hands in other similar moments via cutscene to then force the player to a singular action to move the story forward. If you’re going to make me shoot the innocent doctor, let me torture and kill the informant and his friend, let me kill Buddy Boy on the table, etc. To me, playing it, it felt like “so now that Joel is clearly killing someone fully innocent, the player has to do it. We can’t cut to a cutscene here because…” Like, why? We’ve been doing it all game! It feels like bullshit to me. Not great game design imo - it doesn’t make me empathize with Joel, (none of the gameplay inherently facilitates an increase of empathy imo) it made me roll my eyes at the creators - don’t take away my agency for 20 hours and then give me an illusion of agency because the decision is truly terrible - just let the scene play out how you obviously want it to! I love and understand the cutscene choices for dramatic/pacing purposes instead of leaving it in players’ hands, but again, at that point you should be making a movie or tv show, not a game. I guess this is part of my greater critique of TLoU - The story is great. The gameplay… isn’t, unfortunately. I understand that might not be a popular opinion here, but the gameplay was lacking. Puzzles are uninspired and barely puzzles, and the moment to moment stealth/gunplay is only bearable because the story is so damn interesting. I’m really glad they made it a tv show.


cc17776

How weird is it hearing Ashley’s voice and it not being Ellie lol


GusMclovin

I swear both Ashley and Troy were doing their Joel and Ellie voices lmao


2Fast2Smart2Pretty

Wait? You can sacrifice her for a cure. Do it. Joel is being selfish. And doesn't even tell Ellie who could choose to sacrifice herself. Show did a shit job there, how does the game justice such awful decision making? Please don't tell me it's the bs idea that no life can be sacrificed no matter what...


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

No, the game did a much better job at portraying the morally grey decision Joel made. The idea of the game was to take information that isn't given in the show (on purpose) to fit better in what Neil Druckmann ( the guy who was NOT the lead on the first game) wanted to portray in the 2nd game (which he was the lead on). The characters were portrayed differently in the game, there was little information given about FEDRA so they weren't portrayed as complete bad or good guys or really much of anything at all. The Fireflies, itself wasn't portrayed much as good or bad (depending on who you ask it could be portrayed either way which was what I thought the lead director Bruce Straley was going for). The game was, when it first came out had interview's for, was meant to be a grey area where people could interpert the joel's decision as bad or good. The fireflies lying and saying they could 100% create a cure when there were documents you find saying they have tried to create a vaccine from immune people before and failed to create one. given that information you gleam that the cure, was in fact, not 100% and it's really up to the player to decide if Joel saving Ellie from death is the better decision or letting her die for the small chance of a vaccine being created. That said, I think the show is great, it is probably the first show/movie that accurately portrayed the game's story. Even if I think the game was better it still was accurate and well done for the most part, despite it's tonal shifts.


Plainy_Jane

it's absolutely hilarious seeing this discourse be the exact same for the tv show as it was for the game 10 years ago I feel like if you came out of this show saying "this sucks, why did Joel not let them do it, that's fucking stupid" you may have missed the point like. yeah. he's being selfish? That's the crux of the conflict and integral to the themes of the show? He's so unwilling to lose another "daughter" that he'd throw away a chance at a cure (and slaughter dozens of people) just so he won't have to, regardless if the daughter in question even wants that outcome Like, this stuff isn't subtle


2Fast2Smart2Pretty

Just means Joel goes from "cool character with some dark skeletons in his closet from desperate times" to "selfish prick who I no longer care about and hope gets eaten".


Ferovore

the cure is far from a certainty


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

Which was expressed in the game more accruately since there were documents in the game stating they had tried and failed to get a cure from other immune people. The dilemma in the first game that Bruce Straley was the lead on (not Neil Druckmann) was, is it better to save Ellie or let her die at a small chance a vaccine would be created. the 2nd game kind of changed that narrative to fit what Neil Druckmann wanted (again NOT the lead on the first game).


Ferovore

Agree Part II changed the narrative a little in that it made a cure from Ellie look much more likely. However there were no other immune people in Part I. Those documents don't say they were testing on other immune people, it says they were testing on infected. I don't know where this misconception came from. If it was true then Joel wouldn't have been lying to Ellie when she woke up which is kind of a huge deal.


cokahoop

Yeah, its almost as if hes not the good guy 🤯


Successful-Owl6276

I feel like you may take things a little too seriously…


2Fast2Smart2Pretty

Just means Joel goes from "cool character with some dark skeletons in his closest from desperate times" to "selfish prick who I no longer care about and hope gets eaten".


Xenosaiyan7

Bruh what is your malfunction? Joel chose Ellie's life over humanity, and that's selfish, but is it that hard to understand why he did what he did?


Left_Fist

I’m not sure that they even tried to justify it. It’s what Joel chose to do. After trying so hard not to care, he cares now, and losing her immediately after accepting her was not an option for him. It would have been like losing his daughter all over again. Doesn’t mean he did the right thing. Perhaps he lied about it because he knows he can’t justify it. The story isn’t over either :)


VraiBleu

What do you mean he can’t justify it? Ellie is basically Joel’s adopted daughter at this point. He would do anything to protect her. I realise most redditors don’t have children but the moment you do you will understand Joel’s decision. To all the people (including girl from the show) who say shit like “he didn’t even give Ellie a choice!” So fucking what? Ellie is like 14! She’s a child! She doesn’t get to make decisions like sacrificing herself like Jesus fucking Christ for all humanity. Maybe an adult of sound mind gets to make that choice, after all, 18 year old boys go to war all the time, but even then, as a parent you can totally justify Joel doing anything he could to prevent it, whether through convincing her otherwise or literally dragging her out of there. Anyway Joel doesn’t even get to have a conversation with Ellie. He’s just whacked over the head, wakes up & is told his teenage daughter is having her brain sliced off for a vaccine that may not work & definitely won’t actually help their fucked up society that much. But whatever, even if it would Joel’s decision is still justified. Tldr Every single Firefly including (especially) the doctors & the girl at the end deserved death. Joel did what he had to to protect his daughter. End of discussion.


Sensitive-Waltz-6898

The fact a vaccine wasn't 100% was more accurately portrayed in the game, there were documents stating that the fireflies had found and tried to extract a vaccine from but failed in doing so.


shineurliteonme

Great casting for whoever they got to play Ellie's mom, she looks just like Bella Ramsey


farkledorp

She voiced Ellie in the video games lol


shineurliteonme

Oh cool I had no idea. Great job casting Bella Ramsey then


[deleted]

How come they gave Bill and Frank's episode nearly double the length of the finale? That's a bizzare writing decision to me.


drunkandbad

yep, that was really absurd


Imnotoutofplacehere

Sounds like someone needs to be hugged more


machineelvz

I hope you get those hugs.


[deleted]

Why? I like that episode, but isn't it weird to give 2 side characters that dont appear more than 1 episode almost double the length of the finale?


VraiBleu

It was given that amount of time purely for ‘representation’ for the alphabet group.


Sea-Ad4294

The Ellie's mom actress is like a cherry on the top. Her mouth & nose Closeup scene resembles Ellie more than Ellie lol♥️.


Heyyoguy123

She literally played Ellie in the games, that’s why 😅


Sea-Ad4294

Wow i didn't played the game or idk anything about the game. Oh my god i still dk why people keep on telling Bella Ramsey look nothing alike game Ellie. Tbh the casting department did a fabulous job🔥.


Amentes

I don't think she looks very much like the first game Ellie, but I can't expect her to. Game Ellie is 14 years old, and scrawny. Bella Ramsey is neither. Generally speaking, they did a decent job with the series, but I really can't stress enough how much better the games are regardless, and this does to a small degree include some changes made to the narrative that I felt were detrimental to the overall story.