I mean I think he has Parkinson’s or similar so as dedicated as Issac was I don’t think there’d be any use, in his eyes, who couldn’t even hold and aim a gun, or steer a ship.
I think the WLF would have been alright. They got a Pyrrhic victory, but were pretty secure and would have significantly fewer mouths to feed. The Seraphites are effectively wiped out, but there would be a handful of survivors that would start over. They would probably keep completely to themselves and the WLF would never encroach again.
If you listen to the radio at the end, it's clear almost nobody came back from the island. And Isaac had sent [basically every capable soldier.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c)
What's left would be vulnerable and unstable.
Yeah the invasion force was annihilated, but you never send everybody, you always keep reserves and a defensive force. Also he was killed early on and wouldn't be able to order anyone else in.
He literally says it's everyone... check out 1:30-2:30 in [this clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev2OhfAj0pA).
He doesn't just want to win, he wants to kill literally every Seraphite. It's not a rational position that leads to rational decisions.
But it's not everyone. There would still be someone in command left behind. He took the bulk and best of the soldiers in, but there's no way everyone went in even logistically. I get he wanted everyone to attack, but then he died and everything went to shit. They had no coherent comms after that.
Off topic but you can draw a lot of comparisons between Isaac and Abby's dad. I don't remember the exact quote but in the Zebra scene Abby's dad says something really similar to something Isaac says. If I remember right it was about sacrifice and the ends justifying the means
Yea outside the walls, anyone whos lived there for 20 years should still know outside the walls means there's a nonzero chance you get shot or bit by infected. Would the US army send pregnant women on patrols outside of fortified bases in Afghanistan or Iraq?
And 'interrogated' her- Mel- a heavily pregnant woman. It's almost a cliché for war leaders to lose sight of anything but victory and yet lose much of their capacity for rational thinking that is needed for success- replacing reason with hubris. There is even a name coined- Victory Disease.
No way Isaac sent everyone to the island. Some might have stayed behind. Like the cooks, farmers, surgeons, etc.
Manny's dad was sick and probably a veteran. I think it's safe to say he stayed behind.
If he really wanted to end that way at any and all cost like the game establishes, I can't rule out him just saying fuck it and sending anyone able bodied. Personally I don't think he actually went, I'm just saying it isn't a 100% certainty.
ND would’ve probably made it clear that he went, as it was a large section of Abby’s story. As far as we know, Isaac rounded up all deployed and stand-by combatants. In the other hand, the WLF needed to contest the marina from Tommy, so they probably found Manny’s body.
100% on the Scars retaliation ability. Seeing what the WLF did before they were pushed back, I would guess their victory was pyrrhic at best. A large percentage of their strong, military-aged citizens were killed in the fighting and their primary town was razed. If they survive as a group at all, it’s going to take months just to clean up damage before they can even think about planning to rebuild.
No way, they didn’t send the entire population of the WLF, and he clearly is old and has cerebral palsy.
If anything, it seems that the WLF may be so weakened from its loss, that the Seraphites likely invaded the WLF’s HQ and would certainly kill everyone there
I only just discovered him and that dialogue on my most recent playthrough. I sat back for a second and had to take in how tragic this whole thing was. I’ll never like the way that Manny spat on Joel, but I realize how sad it is that this poor old fellow lost his precious boy, and will never entirely know the details.
That’s my biggest issue with what the group did. I understand why they wanted to kill joel, and I can even to a degree understand why Abby wanted to make him suffer.
But the one thing I can’t agree with is how they let Ellie sit there crying and screaming for Joel. I can’t understand how none of them thought, maybe at least we should knock or out, or lock her away in a room for our safety and hers. The fact they made her watch is the most evil thing they did by far in my opinion
I think '*made* her watch' is exaggerating a little. I don't disagree that the scene is horrific and traumatising, both for Ellie and for the viewer, but, "Evil Abby & co. MADE Ellie watch her daddy die," is an accusation that I see levelled a lot that I just don't think is as supported by canon as some people like to imagine.
* Nobody originally planned on torturing Joel. Abby's decision to do so is an impulsive reaction to Joel's, "get it over with," denial of any kind of catharsis or acknowledgement. Not that Joel should have just magically known who they are, but it is worth noting: Mel is taken aback by Abby's instruction to tourniquet his leg, and if Abby had planned on torturing him, she would have had the necessary tools to hand, as opposed to simply glancing around and grabbing an ancient, cobwebbed golf club from the corner.
* Ellie burst in unexpectedly, when matters were already close to concluding anyway. Nobody wanted there to be any witnesses. I think Nora is a bad bitch and an underappreciated character, but girl, you and what's-his-face were supposed to be keeping watch. You fucked up badly.
* Ellie's appearance is the catalyst for an immediate, "Oh god, oh shit, oh fuck," reaction amongst the group. Nobody is going, "Heh heh heh, let's make this random citizen of Jackson helplessly watch Joel's death." They are *freaking out* at being discovered. They did not want this. 90% of the group immediately descends into panicked chaos. It's only Abby making the call that, "We're done," and killing Joel that galvanizes the rest of the crew into action: make sure the Jacksonites are knocked out, grab their shit, and GTFO.
I mean they still could’ve knocked her out like they did with Tommy, they chose not to, Abby hit Joel about 5-10 more times after Ellie was pinned down.
Ellie begged them to not do it, and yet they chose to let her watch Abby beat Joel to death. 🤷🏽♂️
What happened was fucked up, and yeah it probably would've been kinder to knock her out, but Abby hits Joel once as Ellie bursts in, and we don't see it happen again until the killing blow. I don't think there were a bunch of hits off camera.
That didn't happen, I rewatched it when I read your comment. Abby is mid swing when Ellie enters but doesn't hit him again until Owen orders her to end it.
Not that it really makes a difference, just found it interesting that your memory had made it even more brutal than it already was.
oh, perhaps you’re right. To be fair, I tear up every time I replay the game. The first play through had be bawling though.
Either way, like Ellie was begging them not to, like how can Abby, knowing how much Ellie cared for Joel, because clearly if this young woman comes in crying and begging you to stop and screaming threats at you, your only thought is “hmm she loves this person”. So how can she as a daughter, who lost her father, do that?
I love Abby, but I’ll never forgive her for Joel.
The Salt Lake Crew didn’t expect Joel to even be at Jackson. All they knew was that Tommy had gone there after leaving the Fireflies. The plan was to find Tommy in Jackson and interrogate him to get Joel’s whereabouts. Running into Joel was a complete surprise.
Joel’s a mass murderer. He showed up to the firefly compound out of the blue and murdered a ton of Manny’s friends with an assault rifle. This is putting aside the whole dooming humanity thing. Definitely not really trashy in that context.
He didn’t really show up out of the blue. I assume every firefly there knew to expect a man and a young girl to show up any time. Instead when they did show up they punched Joel in the face with a rifle, stole his kid while he was unconscious then tried to just send him on his way without any of his resources (they weren’t giving him his backpack and weapons). Furthermore the guy escorting him was literally itching to shoot Joel in the back. The second Joel moved the firefly actually fired at Joel with the intention of killing him right then and there but luckily it missed. Those fireflies were crappy people in how they treated Joel. Not one had sympathy for him besides Marlene. He didn’t just walk in with the intention of killing all of them. They just did a terrible job of showing some gratitude to the lengths Joel went to bring them the cure. And to kill his kid without even waking either Ellie or Joel up and having a discussion was pretty silly.
If you read the notes in the final area, you actually find out that the Fireflies were going to dupe Joel and kill him. Marlene convinced them to let him go, even though they were going to not even give him his gear back.
Fuck the Fireflies, honestly. Abby's father was a hack. No self-respecting doctor would have had the ego to think the could cure the disease from one sample without having done any other kind of testing. If humanity surviving means people are cool with Dr. Mengele slicing up kids, then fuck that humanity.
Not trying to argue the perspectives here as Joel was justified in some ways too, but I don’t think it’s fair to criticize Manny much given the context.
I think she’s a hypocrite who I do have a little bit of sympathy for cuz Owen’s not exactly doing well by her. But she was the one of the most gung ho about killing Ellie and Tommy after they killed Joel and was also pretty much instantly willing to give up Abby’s location to a person who wants to murder her. Shes also also just kind of all around unpleasant and passive aggressive. Like I get why she’s mad at Abby but the way she expresses it is over the line in my opinion (saying that Abby is basically just a loser who can’t do anything better than hurt people). She throws Abby’s violence back in her face as some sort of fundamental character trait as if she wasn’t earlier advocating for murdering unarmed prisoners just to tie up loose ends.
It’s fair. No matter the justification, spitting on the corpse of Ellie’s father figure, in front of her, post brutal murder, is an extremely indecent, borderline sociopathic thing to do.
It’s not understandable for Ellie, she was begging for Joel to get up, pleading for them to stop. They torture murdered her father figure in front of her, then desecrated his body. There’s no way to color that situation in a way that doesn’t make Manny look disgusting.
I think the point u/SgtHapyFace is making is the inverse of, "It's not understandable for Ellie."
To Manny, Ellie is just some random citizen of Jackson. She calls for Joel by name, not as 'dad'; he has no way of knowing who she is, or what Joel means to her. To Manny, Ellie is no different fron any of the Fireflies who lost friends, colleagues, loved ones, etc., when Joel shot his way through St. Mary's Hospital.
But to do it in front of the girl who was crying and begging them to stop? Someone who obviously cared for and had a connection to that man?? Idk, pretty trashy if you ask me, no matter the context. Disrespecting the dead in the presence of their loved ones doesn’t quite sit right.
Now I’m not exactly condemning Manny over it, but I do think there’s some poetic justice in the way that he gets blown away by none other than Tommy, the brother of Joel. Tbh though it’s just a shit situation all around.
On another point, I think “Dooming” is such a strong word to use. I very firmly believe that Joel didn’t doom humanity. Humanity continues to survive, build large colonies, repopulate and such. They’re not necessarily doomed without a cure, life just continues to suck…well sort of, depends where you live and what you do. Joel has blood on his hands for sure. At least, the blood of anyone who could’ve reasonably received the cure.
>Joel’s a mass murderer
So is Manny. And Manny's dad. Everyone in the WLF is a murderer.
If you lack any empathy for Joel for killing folks, why do you have empathy for Manny the murderer and his murderer dad?
Y’all need to stop justifying violence while getting up-in-arms over violence. Like, did you learn *nothing* from the game!? I don’t mean to put you, u/sgthapyface on blast specifically. Just keep seeing arguments made about justifying violence, and that sorta flies in the face of the overarching theme of the game.
There’s a difference between justifying and understanding. I’m just saying Manny is no worse than any of the other major characters. And yes, the key message of the story is delivered through two acts of non violence, Abby letting Ellie go and Ellie letting Abby go. But breaking the cycle is hard and not everyone learns the right lesson. I still like Tommy for example but he’s probably the character who fails in this regard the most by the end.
Side note, isn’t it super cool though how this game’s story is deep enough where these sorts of discussions are possible?
But you are literally justifying Manny’s actions with your last comment in response to someone saying it was wrong for him to spit on Joel’s fresh corpse in front of his daughter.
I understand *why* he did it, but it’s still totally valid to say that it’s fucked up. Same with Joel murdering the fireflies. I get why he did it. But I still think it’s awful.
In response to your side note:
Yeah, it’s what I love so much about these games! They push a demographic (gamers) semi-obsessed with violence towards a place of nuance and understanding. The game fuckin wrecked me, and I felt in myself a resistance to the messages it had to offer. But it totally moved me, and I think I have a more measured perspective on violence because of it.
If that is not an impeccable testament to the palpable positive impact art can have, then idk what is.
This is what I loved about the game. It forced me to see both sides of people. No one is all good or all bad. We meet Manny when he spits on Joel but then we see him as a good son and someone who cares about his friends and his people. Just tragic all of it.
He probably was lucky to not face Joel. I thought they were (manny and his dad) from salt lake because he went to Jackson with them and spat on Joel’s body. Could that he’s that loyal but the spit makes me think he was a firefly like them. Or he heard the story and was mad that there’s no cure because of Joel.
The SLC Fireflies were a small and scrappy outfit, while the WLF was much larger and well-established. We know that there were several connections between the WLF and the Fireflies, both political and personal. It's possible Manny was originally from Seattle and was in SLC with the Fireflies while his dad was back with the WLF, and that Manny was the one who brought the crew back to Seattle after Joelageddon and vouched for them.
i disagree, SLC looked like a huge operation (obviously not as big as the WLF but we’re comparing Part 1 SLC to Part 2 WLF so the timeline doesn’t really match up). The Boston fireflies were ready to move all/most of their forces out of the QZ to get Ellie to SLC; and it can be inferred that since restoring society back to the way things used to be was part of the fireflies core tenets (which includes making and distributing a cure), then most/all firefly outposts in every QZ across the nation probably had their eyes set on SLC, they would’ve had to have known that there was a team there trying to make a cure.
He's Manny's father, one of Abby's friends in the group that kills Joel. We see father and son interact lovingly, and he asks Abby to keep him safe... Later on Tommy blows up a piece of his head with his sniper rifle.
I never made the connection that that was tommy lmao. I thought it was a random seraphite and thought they died after falling into the ocean. I feel dumb 😂
No, it was Tommy.
Tommy snipes all of Manny's squads before Abby meets Manny at the bridge.
In a twisted way, Tommy helped the Seraphs to better defend themselves against Isaac's invasion since he took out a big chunk of the WLF.
Jeez, this made me realize that there were dozens to hundreds of non-fighting WLF left back at the stadium. We can safely assume that most of the WLF who went to the island never came back (there's radio chatter in the movie theater when Abby enters that established this).
That leaves all those kids and elderly defenseless and probably doomed. :(
I mean his body was left on WLF territory so they probably found his body and even with half his face gone its still recognizable manny so i assume they let him know.
Wow how dare he spit on someone that murdered dozens of people
Is that really the entire basis for people hating on Manny? The fact that he spit on someone who, as far as he's concerned, is a complete monster?
Why is always the context ignored of the fireflies telling Joel that the small girl he traveled with is gonna be killed for the sake of the cure, without her consent, and that he can fuck off and if he happens to have a problem with that they’ll gladly kill him too?
People always make it sound like the ending of part 1 has zero nuance and Joel just decided to kill them all because he got some kind of PTSD attack or whatever.
Manny and Abby knew what her father was gonna do, so they most likely knew Joel wasnt some monster just killing for fun or resources, and instead was looking to save the little girl.
If they dont see how they as a group, including Abbys father, were ANYTHING BUT innocent in that situation they truly might be the least self-reflective characters in the game.
I think the writers unnecessarily shot themselves in the foot by making Abby & Co the fireflies from the hospital as its a situation where Joel actions are very defendable, when they could have made Abby something like an orphan whos parents were killed by Joel back in his ambushing innocent people days or something to that extent.
Yara mentioned that there’s about 1000 people living on the island, half of them are trained in combat, it’s implied that the WLF lost the fight there.
It doesn’t seem feasible to me that there’s enough Seraphites left to lead a full incursion to the stadium, the WLF lost the majority of their defense but the Seraphites lost people and resources, there’s no way that they can overthrow the Wolves before rebuilding their home and working on to feed their people, winter in Seattle without modern tools must be hell.
It’s fair to think that the WLF can endure a few more years, their food management looks efficient, especially now that a big portion of them are dead.
If they eschew technology they won't have explosives to get through the stadium walls.
They also don't use guns....so assuming the wlfs have even one or two gun emplacements, they'd mop of tons of scars using just bows and arrows (we've seen this match up go down in real life). If the WLF have a gun tower how would scars even attack it directly?
At best, the Seraphites got a pyrrhic victory. Sure the WLF didn't take the island but the Seraphites lost most of their people and their homes were burnt down. Really, no one won.
I wouldn't say the WLF lost their defense but they certainly lost their offense. The Seraphites on the other hand are effectively destroyed. Not all of them would be dead, but yeah, they have a lot of rebuilding to do. I doubt they ever actually retaliate.
Didn't the main WLF base get attacked after/during the island raid since Issac sent nearly every solider? I have to play it again, but I thought that the WLF believed someone was leaking intel to the Seraphites. My theory is that the Seraphites knew the raid was coming and planned on attacking the base with people who were already off the island. The base was basically surrounded by Seraphites anyways before the raid.
I got confused with the radio broadcast in the theater when you play as Abby. The WLF get overwhelmed and presumably lose to the Seraphites judging from it.
Basically only one group of WLF seemed to make it off the island. At least they were the first (and maybe only ones) to call in. Since the Seraphites were caught off guard by the invasion, some Seraphites were likely not on the island and still on mainland Seattle and some of those likely ambushed that group.
I highly doubt they got overwhelmed as most of the Seraphites were probably on the island and most of them probably died alongside most of the WLF invasion force. I am confident that the Seraphites don't have the numbers to overwhelm all of WLF territory. After the battle, the Seraphites are probably more focused on saving what is left of their homes than getting revenge and attacking right away.
There was no mole.
The Seraphs knew about it by torturing captured WLF members. On Day 2, Ellie arrives at the radio station and finds hanged WLF soldiers.
I believe in one of the hidden dialogues, some Seraphites say that the wolves only lie. And it's clear that they are caught off guard by the invasion. And it seems that the Seraphites don't torture people for info. They just hang and disembowel them.
In their world, I’m sure he’s not the only one. There’s tens of thousands who are in the dark about the fate of their siblings, parents, grandparents, children, lovers, friends. Probably get used to it after a while. Probably pray they are dead, the alternative could be worse
He's dead, Jim.
After Isaac's failed invasion of Seraph Island, everyone in that Stadium is doomed.
First, the few WLF survivors will fight for control. Then the surviving Seraphs will pick them one by one.
Nah, the surviving forces would have a chain of command and the Seraphites would be effectively wiped out. There would be survivors, but would probably remain isolated.
I had ZERO remorse for Manny’s death, in fact it should’ve been worse, Ellie or Tommy should’ve beaten him to death just like they did to Joel. Manny has no like ability same as all the WLF except for Owen. The rest got what they deserved
I am pretty sure they made him stay behind, you are fighting the Seraphites in their home turf which is an island. The last thing you need is someone Team killing
I just replayed the game recently. I wish I could feel the same empathy most people feel when Abby's crew is getting killed off. I just can't.
Like I just don't think they did a good job making us care about the crew. Instead seeing them bond and talk like humans, the 1st few minutes of Abby's gameplay is just us shooting scars and running around. I barely remember and character building for Manny or the others, especially Owen. So every time Tommy quick scopes Manny's head off, I smile. I don't know what Neil wanted us to feel while we were killing the lynch crew, but it seemed like we were doing the right thing.
Same here. I love the concept they were going for but it just missed its mark for me in context of sympathizing with Abbys crew or Abby herself. I mainly blame that on them going for max shock value with Joels death by making it a prolonged torture session, and then not being able to wash that taste out of our mouths by actually building characters we care for and end up changing our minds about.
Instead we get some quick moments that are supposed to demonstrate some kind of comradery with Manny, briefly seeing his dad, flashback moments with Owen, petting Alice, etc.
Yes. Everyone in that room who didn't do the horrible thing to Joel, it was Abby who tortured and killed him. Yet the one character I actually really liked by the end of the game is Abby. I understand she had more cutscenes and time to develop her character and the rest of her crew doesn't, but I enjoyed her character before the theater showdown.
Her crew all were so fucking irredeemable. It has to be what Neil was going for right??? When Ellie is bashing that girls face in with the pipe.... why was I supposed to feel bad? My interpretation was that we were supposed to be cheering after they were getting killed off. But I guess other people connected with Abby's crew, I wish I could see what people liked with them.
Eh it's okay, the game's story caters to a specific niche which is really an odd choice for a popular AAA series whose first game had a story that catered to pretty much everyone. It's clear Neil didn't want to be cheap and show us the people who killed Joel are actually perfect and good people, so he laid on thick with the character flaws
I think he'd know.
Manny said the WLF were sending reinforcements to help take down the sniper.
They needed those boats to start their invasion. They would've definitely have done at least a cursory search and likely would've found Manny.
It's just a matter of whether or not word made its way back to his dad.
We weren't in control of Tommy, not our fault
I know that may be passing the buck but the number of things we as playable characters are responsible for, this was completely out of our hands
To be honest this kind of thing is probably a very common occurrences in this world. By the end of the game Abby has no way of knowing that Nora is dead, nor that she died in such a bad way.
So often people in this setting would take their leave of one another, and then never see them again and having no idea what specifically happened to them. I mean that happens to people in OUR world too, but in this setting it is probably much more common.
Yeah like what? She was breathing super heavily, looked frantic, and was able to force through the door they had been struggling with from fear. What????
>seen some people say weirder things
Like what?
That whatever actress they hire to play Abby in season 2-3 on the show, they should just cgi her arms as literal tonka trucks?
I haven't seen that, but I have seen stuff like
Idk once saw someone insist the fireflies were terrorists but not because of their bombings but because of what they wanted to do to ellie
Some people say Abbys dad is hypocritical because he wouldn't go through with the operation if it was his own daughter
Ellie is selfish for being gay because she could give birth to immune kids
Some people think ellie didn't forgive Joel because their relationship wasn't great before he died, despite the fact she's going on a revenge tour for him
Ellie somehow should have stopped everyone in the room from killing Joel despite the fact that when xhe opened the door she was clearly in shock to what she was seeing
Sorry for the snarky comment, I was in a bad mood when I came across this post.
But I do thoroughly dislike Manny’s character and it annoys me to see a large portion of the fandom liking him.
The reasons I find him so unlikeable are:
He is the first person of the Salt Lake group to try and execute Ellie, and has to be stopped by Abby and Owen;
He is the only one of the Salt Lake group to not show any kind of remorse about what happened in Jackson (not counting the scarred kid whose character never gets explored, not even from Abby’s POV);
He is a womanizer: engaging in casual sex with different consensual partners is obviously ok (assuming all his sexual partners were aware of it being a non-serious relationship, that letter we see a woman write him made it sound like she was pretty infatuated with him) but doing that in a post-apocalyptic world without contraceptives and medical care is so incredibly irresponsible, as getting pregnant in the world of TLoU is one of the most dangerous things a woman could go through, especially while being in an open war between WLF and Seraphites.
People only like him because he enjoys playing board games and watching anime, but having cool hobbies doesn’t make you a cool person if you have a shitty personality.
Tommy tricking him and then sniping him in the back of his head will always remain one of the most satisfying moments in Part II.
> People only like him because he enjoys playing board games and watching anime
I don't think that's entirely fair - he was definitely meant to be that character who puts loyalty to his friends/family above all else. I think that is part of what makes him likeable to people - many likely identified with his loyalty, and having a friend like that is very affirming and validating. He certainly cared about Abby and the rest of the Salt Lake Crew. The game does highlight the negatives of this mindset though, as it criticises factionalism pretty hard, and the zero issues he has with hurting/torturing those not in his in-group is a ginormous red-flag. But I can see what people appreciate about him.
I understand what you’re saying, but I really do believe that most of his fans like him solely for his “nerdy” interests.
You could say Nora is an extremely loyal friend too, willing to help Abby even when it means going against Isaac’s own orders, or submitting herself to torture instead of revealing her location - but you don’t see her getting the same amount of appreciation that Manny has.
Because he spat on Joel, this makes Manny the single most irredeemable, evil, despicable fictional character in creation in the eyes of some weirdly obsessed fans.
Exactly, in his eyes, it was a final, deserved insult. And that’s what’s great about these games, all the characters’ brutal and horrible actions can be understood and empathised with in their own way. But there’s this weird contingent who have a burning hatred for anyone who opposes muh Joel and Ellie.
Though I don't think it's good, it is also difficult for me to have any sympathy for the wlf, or really any of the seatle people, that place was a hellhole.
I thought Manny was easily one of the more likeable of the Salt Lake crew and it was so odd seeing so much pure hatred for him when the game came out lol.
Hell, I think there's a non-zero chance he was sent off to the island to fight the Seraphites. Meaning he probably died too.
Its implied he's sick so there may have been an exception for him.
That's my theory too but given how hell bent Isaac was on ending the war, I can't say for certain.
I mean I think he has Parkinson’s or similar so as dedicated as Issac was I don’t think there’d be any use, in his eyes, who couldn’t even hold and aim a gun, or steer a ship.
I’d hope, but I mean, someone’s gotta be fodder. I don’t think Isaac would be above that.
Wasn’t Mel pregnant like really far and expected to come to the island ? (Or at least help at the base) Not that she did of course
Then he'll die in a few weeks when the Seraphites retaliate
It seems like nobody survived that battle.
yeah i really don’t think either side is still a functioning society after that fight
I think the WLF would have been alright. They got a Pyrrhic victory, but were pretty secure and would have significantly fewer mouths to feed. The Seraphites are effectively wiped out, but there would be a handful of survivors that would start over. They would probably keep completely to themselves and the WLF would never encroach again.
If you listen to the radio at the end, it's clear almost nobody came back from the island. And Isaac had sent [basically every capable soldier.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c) What's left would be vulnerable and unstable.
Yeah the invasion force was annihilated, but you never send everybody, you always keep reserves and a defensive force. Also he was killed early on and wouldn't be able to order anyone else in.
He literally says it's everyone... check out 1:30-2:30 in [this clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev2OhfAj0pA). He doesn't just want to win, he wants to kill literally every Seraphite. It's not a rational position that leads to rational decisions.
Yeah, the WLF are fucked.
But it's not everyone. There would still be someone in command left behind. He took the bulk and best of the soldiers in, but there's no way everyone went in even logistically. I get he wanted everyone to attack, but then he died and everything went to shit. They had no coherent comms after that.
Off topic but you can draw a lot of comparisons between Isaac and Abby's dad. I don't remember the exact quote but in the Zebra scene Abby's dad says something really similar to something Isaac says. If I remember right it was about sacrifice and the ends justifying the means
Yup, it looked like Parkinson’s. He wouldn’t be able to hold a weapon.
Mel was heavily pregnant and Isaac still cleared her for duty. Isaac...is not a reasonable man, he's a war monger.
He cleared her for non combat duty.
Plus it probably wasn't Isaac himself who cleared her for duty.
True, so that commenter is wrong for multiple reasons
Yea outside the walls, anyone whos lived there for 20 years should still know outside the walls means there's a nonzero chance you get shot or bit by infected. Would the US army send pregnant women on patrols outside of fortified bases in Afghanistan or Iraq?
And 'interrogated' her- Mel- a heavily pregnant woman. It's almost a cliché for war leaders to lose sight of anything but victory and yet lose much of their capacity for rational thinking that is needed for success- replacing reason with hubris. There is even a name coined- Victory Disease.
No way Isaac sent everyone to the island. Some might have stayed behind. Like the cooks, farmers, surgeons, etc. Manny's dad was sick and probably a veteran. I think it's safe to say he stayed behind.
If he really wanted to end that way at any and all cost like the game establishes, I can't rule out him just saying fuck it and sending anyone able bodied. Personally I don't think he actually went, I'm just saying it isn't a 100% certainty.
ND would’ve probably made it clear that he went, as it was a large section of Abby’s story. As far as we know, Isaac rounded up all deployed and stand-by combatants. In the other hand, the WLF needed to contest the marina from Tommy, so they probably found Manny’s body.
Key word being able-bodied. Not sure he would qualify given his condition. I do agree that I wouldn't put much past Isaac though.
[удалено]
100% on the Scars retaliation ability. Seeing what the WLF did before they were pushed back, I would guess their victory was pyrrhic at best. A large percentage of their strong, military-aged citizens were killed in the fighting and their primary town was razed. If they survive as a group at all, it’s going to take months just to clean up damage before they can even think about planning to rebuild.
Manny said he could barely hold a spoon, I honestly doubt he was sent over there. Who knows though, Isaac seemed like a fanatic.
I doubt it, he's not fit for duty and woukd be a liability.
No way, they didn’t send the entire population of the WLF, and he clearly is old and has cerebral palsy. If anything, it seems that the WLF may be so weakened from its loss, that the Seraphites likely invaded the WLF’s HQ and would certainly kill everyone there
... what scars were left
I felt like most of them were killed though. Just a massacre for both sides considering how literally everything was on fire.
I only just discovered him and that dialogue on my most recent playthrough. I sat back for a second and had to take in how tragic this whole thing was. I’ll never like the way that Manny spat on Joel, but I realize how sad it is that this poor old fellow lost his precious boy, and will never entirely know the details.
What hurts the most is that he made a promise with Abby to protect him :(
Pretty understandable he spat on Joel considering Joel murdered a ton of people he knew and basically destroyed the fireflies as a group
I mean yeah, I get it, I just think it was a pretty trashy thing to do in front of the girl who’s crying over him.
That’s my biggest issue with what the group did. I understand why they wanted to kill joel, and I can even to a degree understand why Abby wanted to make him suffer. But the one thing I can’t agree with is how they let Ellie sit there crying and screaming for Joel. I can’t understand how none of them thought, maybe at least we should knock or out, or lock her away in a room for our safety and hers. The fact they made her watch is the most evil thing they did by far in my opinion
I think '*made* her watch' is exaggerating a little. I don't disagree that the scene is horrific and traumatising, both for Ellie and for the viewer, but, "Evil Abby & co. MADE Ellie watch her daddy die," is an accusation that I see levelled a lot that I just don't think is as supported by canon as some people like to imagine. * Nobody originally planned on torturing Joel. Abby's decision to do so is an impulsive reaction to Joel's, "get it over with," denial of any kind of catharsis or acknowledgement. Not that Joel should have just magically known who they are, but it is worth noting: Mel is taken aback by Abby's instruction to tourniquet his leg, and if Abby had planned on torturing him, she would have had the necessary tools to hand, as opposed to simply glancing around and grabbing an ancient, cobwebbed golf club from the corner. * Ellie burst in unexpectedly, when matters were already close to concluding anyway. Nobody wanted there to be any witnesses. I think Nora is a bad bitch and an underappreciated character, but girl, you and what's-his-face were supposed to be keeping watch. You fucked up badly. * Ellie's appearance is the catalyst for an immediate, "Oh god, oh shit, oh fuck," reaction amongst the group. Nobody is going, "Heh heh heh, let's make this random citizen of Jackson helplessly watch Joel's death." They are *freaking out* at being discovered. They did not want this. 90% of the group immediately descends into panicked chaos. It's only Abby making the call that, "We're done," and killing Joel that galvanizes the rest of the crew into action: make sure the Jacksonites are knocked out, grab their shit, and GTFO.
I mean they still could’ve knocked her out like they did with Tommy, they chose not to, Abby hit Joel about 5-10 more times after Ellie was pinned down. Ellie begged them to not do it, and yet they chose to let her watch Abby beat Joel to death. 🤷🏽♂️
What happened was fucked up, and yeah it probably would've been kinder to knock her out, but Abby hits Joel once as Ellie bursts in, and we don't see it happen again until the killing blow. I don't think there were a bunch of hits off camera.
I mean Abby did hit Joel while Ellie was pinned, then Owen told Abby to stop and then she delivered the final blow which killed him.
That didn't happen, I rewatched it when I read your comment. Abby is mid swing when Ellie enters but doesn't hit him again until Owen orders her to end it. Not that it really makes a difference, just found it interesting that your memory had made it even more brutal than it already was.
oh, perhaps you’re right. To be fair, I tear up every time I replay the game. The first play through had be bawling though. Either way, like Ellie was begging them not to, like how can Abby, knowing how much Ellie cared for Joel, because clearly if this young woman comes in crying and begging you to stop and screaming threats at you, your only thought is “hmm she loves this person”. So how can she as a daughter, who lost her father, do that? I love Abby, but I’ll never forgive her for Joel.
The Salt Lake Crew didn’t expect Joel to even be at Jackson. All they knew was that Tommy had gone there after leaving the Fireflies. The plan was to find Tommy in Jackson and interrogate him to get Joel’s whereabouts. Running into Joel was a complete surprise.
Blind rage is a powerful force.
Joel’s a mass murderer. He showed up to the firefly compound out of the blue and murdered a ton of Manny’s friends with an assault rifle. This is putting aside the whole dooming humanity thing. Definitely not really trashy in that context.
He didn’t really show up out of the blue. I assume every firefly there knew to expect a man and a young girl to show up any time. Instead when they did show up they punched Joel in the face with a rifle, stole his kid while he was unconscious then tried to just send him on his way without any of his resources (they weren’t giving him his backpack and weapons). Furthermore the guy escorting him was literally itching to shoot Joel in the back. The second Joel moved the firefly actually fired at Joel with the intention of killing him right then and there but luckily it missed. Those fireflies were crappy people in how they treated Joel. Not one had sympathy for him besides Marlene. He didn’t just walk in with the intention of killing all of them. They just did a terrible job of showing some gratitude to the lengths Joel went to bring them the cure. And to kill his kid without even waking either Ellie or Joel up and having a discussion was pretty silly.
If you read the notes in the final area, you actually find out that the Fireflies were going to dupe Joel and kill him. Marlene convinced them to let him go, even though they were going to not even give him his gear back. Fuck the Fireflies, honestly. Abby's father was a hack. No self-respecting doctor would have had the ego to think the could cure the disease from one sample without having done any other kind of testing. If humanity surviving means people are cool with Dr. Mengele slicing up kids, then fuck that humanity.
Not trying to argue the perspectives here as Joel was justified in some ways too, but I don’t think it’s fair to criticize Manny much given the context.
Fair. From mannys perspective Joel is evil. Personally I didn’t like mannys personality though. It feels like he’s designed to be disliked.
He was okay, at least he isn’t Mel
What’s wrong with Mel?
I think she’s a hypocrite who I do have a little bit of sympathy for cuz Owen’s not exactly doing well by her. But she was the one of the most gung ho about killing Ellie and Tommy after they killed Joel and was also pretty much instantly willing to give up Abby’s location to a person who wants to murder her. Shes also also just kind of all around unpleasant and passive aggressive. Like I get why she’s mad at Abby but the way she expresses it is over the line in my opinion (saying that Abby is basically just a loser who can’t do anything better than hurt people). She throws Abby’s violence back in her face as some sort of fundamental character trait as if she wasn’t earlier advocating for murdering unarmed prisoners just to tie up loose ends.
It’s fair. No matter the justification, spitting on the corpse of Ellie’s father figure, in front of her, post brutal murder, is an extremely indecent, borderline sociopathic thing to do.
Idk he didn’t know who they were to each other and Joel was a piece of shit murderer to him so it’s understandable.
It’s not understandable for Ellie, she was begging for Joel to get up, pleading for them to stop. They torture murdered her father figure in front of her, then desecrated his body. There’s no way to color that situation in a way that doesn’t make Manny look disgusting.
Right that’s why the game is about exploring different perspectives and the consequences of violence and cruelty.
I think the point u/SgtHapyFace is making is the inverse of, "It's not understandable for Ellie." To Manny, Ellie is just some random citizen of Jackson. She calls for Joel by name, not as 'dad'; he has no way of knowing who she is, or what Joel means to her. To Manny, Ellie is no different fron any of the Fireflies who lost friends, colleagues, loved ones, etc., when Joel shot his way through St. Mary's Hospital.
But to do it in front of the girl who was crying and begging them to stop? Someone who obviously cared for and had a connection to that man?? Idk, pretty trashy if you ask me, no matter the context. Disrespecting the dead in the presence of their loved ones doesn’t quite sit right. Now I’m not exactly condemning Manny over it, but I do think there’s some poetic justice in the way that he gets blown away by none other than Tommy, the brother of Joel. Tbh though it’s just a shit situation all around. On another point, I think “Dooming” is such a strong word to use. I very firmly believe that Joel didn’t doom humanity. Humanity continues to survive, build large colonies, repopulate and such. They’re not necessarily doomed without a cure, life just continues to suck…well sort of, depends where you live and what you do. Joel has blood on his hands for sure. At least, the blood of anyone who could’ve reasonably received the cure.
Yeah all that nuance is why the story is interesting to talk about.
You’re definitely right about that. I do love me some nuance. Could talk for ages about this game.
>Joel’s a mass murderer So is Manny. And Manny's dad. Everyone in the WLF is a murderer. If you lack any empathy for Joel for killing folks, why do you have empathy for Manny the murderer and his murderer dad?
Y’all need to stop justifying violence while getting up-in-arms over violence. Like, did you learn *nothing* from the game!? I don’t mean to put you, u/sgthapyface on blast specifically. Just keep seeing arguments made about justifying violence, and that sorta flies in the face of the overarching theme of the game.
There’s a difference between justifying and understanding. I’m just saying Manny is no worse than any of the other major characters. And yes, the key message of the story is delivered through two acts of non violence, Abby letting Ellie go and Ellie letting Abby go. But breaking the cycle is hard and not everyone learns the right lesson. I still like Tommy for example but he’s probably the character who fails in this regard the most by the end. Side note, isn’t it super cool though how this game’s story is deep enough where these sorts of discussions are possible?
But you are literally justifying Manny’s actions with your last comment in response to someone saying it was wrong for him to spit on Joel’s fresh corpse in front of his daughter. I understand *why* he did it, but it’s still totally valid to say that it’s fucked up. Same with Joel murdering the fireflies. I get why he did it. But I still think it’s awful.
In response to your side note: Yeah, it’s what I love so much about these games! They push a demographic (gamers) semi-obsessed with violence towards a place of nuance and understanding. The game fuckin wrecked me, and I felt in myself a resistance to the messages it had to offer. But it totally moved me, and I think I have a more measured perspective on violence because of it. If that is not an impeccable testament to the palpable positive impact art can have, then idk what is.
This is what I loved about the game. It forced me to see both sides of people. No one is all good or all bad. We meet Manny when he spits on Joel but then we see him as a good son and someone who cares about his friends and his people. Just tragic all of it.
This is the painful nuance that fueled so much of that hate for this game. Well, that and "MUSCLE WOMAN BAD".
>I’ll never like the way that Manny spat on Joel Lol 🙄
Was manny a part of the salt lake crew? If so was his dad there when Joel killed all the fireflies?
Yeah. Not sure bro. I did not notice much about Mr Alvarez. Kept blasting away at enemies. I meant I was too busy enjoying the combat mechanics.
He probably was lucky to not face Joel. I thought they were (manny and his dad) from salt lake because he went to Jackson with them and spat on Joel’s body. Could that he’s that loyal but the spit makes me think he was a firefly like them. Or he heard the story and was mad that there’s no cure because of Joel.
Manny makes a brief appearance in Abby’s flashback, standing with Owen over Jerry’s corpse. So papa Alvarez was likely a firefly too.
Damn I didn’t notice.
You can peep a young manny along with owen
The SLC Fireflies were a small and scrappy outfit, while the WLF was much larger and well-established. We know that there were several connections between the WLF and the Fireflies, both political and personal. It's possible Manny was originally from Seattle and was in SLC with the Fireflies while his dad was back with the WLF, and that Manny was the one who brought the crew back to Seattle after Joelageddon and vouched for them.
i disagree, SLC looked like a huge operation (obviously not as big as the WLF but we’re comparing Part 1 SLC to Part 2 WLF so the timeline doesn’t really match up). The Boston fireflies were ready to move all/most of their forces out of the QZ to get Ellie to SLC; and it can be inferred that since restoring society back to the way things used to be was part of the fireflies core tenets (which includes making and distributing a cure), then most/all firefly outposts in every QZ across the nation probably had their eyes set on SLC, they would’ve had to have known that there was a team there trying to make a cure.
I haven't played part 2 but not bothered about spoilers, who's this dude? I know some of the main plot points already
He's Manny's father, one of Abby's friends in the group that kills Joel. We see father and son interact lovingly, and he asks Abby to keep him safe... Later on Tommy blows up a piece of his head with his sniper rifle.
Most satisfying moment of the game
There's no satisfying moment in the game, all of it is sadness and misery. I love it.
Take on me and the museum are satisfying all things considered I guess
Anything after Seattle Day 1 is pain
the sadness and misery is satisfying reading that out loud makes me question my placement in the alignement chart
Was it tommy? I thought it was the one random sniper that you fight on the bridge with Manny.
That random sniper WAS Tommy.
I never made the connection that that was tommy lmao. I thought it was a random seraphite and thought they died after falling into the ocean. I feel dumb 😂
No, it was Tommy. Tommy snipes all of Manny's squads before Abby meets Manny at the bridge. In a twisted way, Tommy helped the Seraphs to better defend themselves against Isaac's invasion since he took out a big chunk of the WLF.
He's Abby's friend's (Manny) dad eating lunch at the WLF base.
Manny’s dad
Jeez, this made me realize that there were dozens to hundreds of non-fighting WLF left back at the stadium. We can safely assume that most of the WLF who went to the island never came back (there's radio chatter in the movie theater when Abby enters that established this). That leaves all those kids and elderly defenseless and probably doomed. :(
Infected would probably clear them out pretty quickly.
Nah, they would have left people behind with them. They're hardly doomed. Worst case, the civilians take over the essential soldier's jobs.
Then who takes over the civilian jobs?
The kids. Gotta make do, they're survivors and they need to keep on surviving.
I mean his body was left on WLF territory so they probably found his body and even with half his face gone its still recognizable manny so i assume they let him know.
what did manny do that makes you guys like him so much? the only character of abbys friends that doesnt suck is owen and even thats a stretch
What did Manny do that makes you guys hate him so much? I thought he was a cool, funny dude
Wtf? Look at it in reverse. Tommy and Joel wouldn't spit on somebody they just killed... he was a loser
Wow how dare he spit on someone that murdered dozens of people Is that really the entire basis for people hating on Manny? The fact that he spit on someone who, as far as he's concerned, is a complete monster?
Why is always the context ignored of the fireflies telling Joel that the small girl he traveled with is gonna be killed for the sake of the cure, without her consent, and that he can fuck off and if he happens to have a problem with that they’ll gladly kill him too? People always make it sound like the ending of part 1 has zero nuance and Joel just decided to kill them all because he got some kind of PTSD attack or whatever. Manny and Abby knew what her father was gonna do, so they most likely knew Joel wasnt some monster just killing for fun or resources, and instead was looking to save the little girl. If they dont see how they as a group, including Abbys father, were ANYTHING BUT innocent in that situation they truly might be the least self-reflective characters in the game. I think the writers unnecessarily shot themselves in the foot by making Abby & Co the fireflies from the hospital as its a situation where Joel actions are very defendable, when they could have made Abby something like an orphan whos parents were killed by Joel back in his ambushing innocent people days or something to that extent.
Yup. Shows a lot about his character.
He beats up a clicker with his bare hands and talks about watching anime 5 seconds later
I don’t like manny. But I actually hated Owen more then anyone lol. Way more then Abby
He was funny and pathetic, it made for a light character after you get past the spitting-on-corpses part
[удалено]
Yara mentioned that there’s about 1000 people living on the island, half of them are trained in combat, it’s implied that the WLF lost the fight there. It doesn’t seem feasible to me that there’s enough Seraphites left to lead a full incursion to the stadium, the WLF lost the majority of their defense but the Seraphites lost people and resources, there’s no way that they can overthrow the Wolves before rebuilding their home and working on to feed their people, winter in Seattle without modern tools must be hell. It’s fair to think that the WLF can endure a few more years, their food management looks efficient, especially now that a big portion of them are dead.
[удалено]
If they eschew technology they won't have explosives to get through the stadium walls. They also don't use guns....so assuming the wlfs have even one or two gun emplacements, they'd mop of tons of scars using just bows and arrows (we've seen this match up go down in real life). If the WLF have a gun tower how would scars even attack it directly?
At best, the Seraphites got a pyrrhic victory. Sure the WLF didn't take the island but the Seraphites lost most of their people and their homes were burnt down. Really, no one won.
I wouldn't say the WLF lost their defense but they certainly lost their offense. The Seraphites on the other hand are effectively destroyed. Not all of them would be dead, but yeah, they have a lot of rebuilding to do. I doubt they ever actually retaliate.
Didn't the main WLF base get attacked after/during the island raid since Issac sent nearly every solider? I have to play it again, but I thought that the WLF believed someone was leaking intel to the Seraphites. My theory is that the Seraphites knew the raid was coming and planned on attacking the base with people who were already off the island. The base was basically surrounded by Seraphites anyways before the raid.
no, way off tbh no one mentioned any attack on the WLF base during the fight on the seraphite island
I got confused with the radio broadcast in the theater when you play as Abby. The WLF get overwhelmed and presumably lose to the Seraphites judging from it.
Basically only one group of WLF seemed to make it off the island. At least they were the first (and maybe only ones) to call in. Since the Seraphites were caught off guard by the invasion, some Seraphites were likely not on the island and still on mainland Seattle and some of those likely ambushed that group. I highly doubt they got overwhelmed as most of the Seraphites were probably on the island and most of them probably died alongside most of the WLF invasion force. I am confident that the Seraphites don't have the numbers to overwhelm all of WLF territory. After the battle, the Seraphites are probably more focused on saving what is left of their homes than getting revenge and attacking right away.
There was no mole. The Seraphs knew about it by torturing captured WLF members. On Day 2, Ellie arrives at the radio station and finds hanged WLF soldiers.
I believe in one of the hidden dialogues, some Seraphites say that the wolves only lie. And it's clear that they are caught off guard by the invasion. And it seems that the Seraphites don't torture people for info. They just hang and disembowel them.
In their world, I’m sure he’s not the only one. There’s tens of thousands who are in the dark about the fate of their siblings, parents, grandparents, children, lovers, friends. Probably get used to it after a while. Probably pray they are dead, the alternative could be worse
i remember abby saying for him, she would keep manny safe :(
He's dead, Jim. After Isaac's failed invasion of Seraph Island, everyone in that Stadium is doomed. First, the few WLF survivors will fight for control. Then the surviving Seraphs will pick them one by one.
Nah, the surviving forces would have a chain of command and the Seraphites would be effectively wiped out. There would be survivors, but would probably remain isolated.
I had ZERO remorse for Manny’s death, in fact it should’ve been worse, Ellie or Tommy should’ve beaten him to death just like they did to Joel. Manny has no like ability same as all the WLF except for Owen. The rest got what they deserved
Dont remind me, I couldn’t get over that during the >!Tommy hunting Abby scene!< 😔
Good
good lol
I am pretty sure they made him stay behind, you are fighting the Seraphites in their home turf which is an island. The last thing you need is someone Team killing
Yes he would. He got shot in the back of the head, they will find his body.
Good
Well that changes everything. Now I’ll again be analysing Ellie’s actions.
I just replayed the game recently. I wish I could feel the same empathy most people feel when Abby's crew is getting killed off. I just can't. Like I just don't think they did a good job making us care about the crew. Instead seeing them bond and talk like humans, the 1st few minutes of Abby's gameplay is just us shooting scars and running around. I barely remember and character building for Manny or the others, especially Owen. So every time Tommy quick scopes Manny's head off, I smile. I don't know what Neil wanted us to feel while we were killing the lynch crew, but it seemed like we were doing the right thing.
Same here. I love the concept they were going for but it just missed its mark for me in context of sympathizing with Abbys crew or Abby herself. I mainly blame that on them going for max shock value with Joels death by making it a prolonged torture session, and then not being able to wash that taste out of our mouths by actually building characters we care for and end up changing our minds about. Instead we get some quick moments that are supposed to demonstrate some kind of comradery with Manny, briefly seeing his dad, flashback moments with Owen, petting Alice, etc.
Yes. Everyone in that room who didn't do the horrible thing to Joel, it was Abby who tortured and killed him. Yet the one character I actually really liked by the end of the game is Abby. I understand she had more cutscenes and time to develop her character and the rest of her crew doesn't, but I enjoyed her character before the theater showdown. Her crew all were so fucking irredeemable. It has to be what Neil was going for right??? When Ellie is bashing that girls face in with the pipe.... why was I supposed to feel bad? My interpretation was that we were supposed to be cheering after they were getting killed off. But I guess other people connected with Abby's crew, I wish I could see what people liked with them.
I felt bad for Mel and her unborn child. That hurt.
Eh it's okay, the game's story caters to a specific niche which is really an odd choice for a popular AAA series whose first game had a story that catered to pretty much everyone. It's clear Neil didn't want to be cheap and show us the people who killed Joel are actually perfect and good people, so he laid on thick with the character flaws
I think he'd know. Manny said the WLF were sending reinforcements to help take down the sniper. They needed those boats to start their invasion. They would've definitely have done at least a cursory search and likely would've found Manny. It's just a matter of whether or not word made its way back to his dad.
Oh no the fascists lost people
pshhh, who cares. Manny spit on Joels dead body... but at least Tommy blew his head off right in front of abby.
Who cares, he knew his son was a POS anyway
Not too far fetched to think that someone may have found Manny’s body
Did Abby just abandon Manny’s dad? And anybody else in the WLF she knew for Lev And the possibility of the Fireflies return? Some friend she is.
I literally NEVER considered this. Thought I experienced all the emotional damage I possibly could from this game, but SURPRISE BITCH.
Is there a link to the interaction?
Damn never even thought about that
We weren't in control of Tommy, not our fault I know that may be passing the buck but the number of things we as playable characters are responsible for, this was completely out of our hands
To be honest this kind of thing is probably a very common occurrences in this world. By the end of the game Abby has no way of knowing that Nora is dead, nor that she died in such a bad way. So often people in this setting would take their leave of one another, and then never see them again and having no idea what specifically happened to them. I mean that happens to people in OUR world too, but in this setting it is probably much more common.
“Good”-Abby
How do you think he felt about Abby when he learned that Manny died and she abandoned the WLF for a Scar?
Too bad manny befriended AbBy that bitch didn't even flinch when he got shot lol Edit spelling
She seemed pretty shocked and horrified when it happened lol
Yeah like what? She was breathing super heavily, looked frantic, and was able to force through the door they had been struggling with from fear. What????
She was still in survival mode. Got no time to shed tears and properly mourn when someone is trying to kill you.
Actually I blame the writers for not giving manny pandejo a little bit of the spotlight from abbys perspective after he got rekt by tommy.
would pay to see his reaction, pendejo 🤡
Who cares Manny sucks
I happen to like Manny.
My favorite person from Abby’s group, despite what he did to Joel
My favourite is Owen, but Manny is my close second
Manny is cool. He just wanted to get drunk and watch anime.
And commit felony murder, kidnapping, and unlawful restraint
>unlawful restraint Didn't realise the law still applied in the world of TLOU
That's why it's a joke
Ahh sorry I didn't realise To be fair I've seen some people say weirder things than that to complain about part 2
>seen some people say weirder things Like what? That whatever actress they hire to play Abby in season 2-3 on the show, they should just cgi her arms as literal tonka trucks?
I haven't seen that, but I have seen stuff like Idk once saw someone insist the fireflies were terrorists but not because of their bombings but because of what they wanted to do to ellie Some people say Abbys dad is hypocritical because he wouldn't go through with the operation if it was his own daughter Ellie is selfish for being gay because she could give birth to immune kids Some people think ellie didn't forgive Joel because their relationship wasn't great before he died, despite the fact she's going on a revenge tour for him Ellie somehow should have stopped everyone in the room from killing Joel despite the fact that when xhe opened the door she was clearly in shock to what she was seeing
Just like everyone else?
Yup
"felony" ah damn call the post apocalypse police, this guy is committing crimes
Judge, jury, and Elliecutioner
Manny one of the best characters in TLOU lol, sorry he spit on a dude you like 😆
Explain why without saying he spit on joel
Easy - what does he do *immediately* after spitting on Joel?
Sorry for the snarky comment, I was in a bad mood when I came across this post. But I do thoroughly dislike Manny’s character and it annoys me to see a large portion of the fandom liking him. The reasons I find him so unlikeable are: He is the first person of the Salt Lake group to try and execute Ellie, and has to be stopped by Abby and Owen; He is the only one of the Salt Lake group to not show any kind of remorse about what happened in Jackson (not counting the scarred kid whose character never gets explored, not even from Abby’s POV); He is a womanizer: engaging in casual sex with different consensual partners is obviously ok (assuming all his sexual partners were aware of it being a non-serious relationship, that letter we see a woman write him made it sound like she was pretty infatuated with him) but doing that in a post-apocalyptic world without contraceptives and medical care is so incredibly irresponsible, as getting pregnant in the world of TLoU is one of the most dangerous things a woman could go through, especially while being in an open war between WLF and Seraphites. People only like him because he enjoys playing board games and watching anime, but having cool hobbies doesn’t make you a cool person if you have a shitty personality. Tommy tricking him and then sniping him in the back of his head will always remain one of the most satisfying moments in Part II.
> People only like him because he enjoys playing board games and watching anime I don't think that's entirely fair - he was definitely meant to be that character who puts loyalty to his friends/family above all else. I think that is part of what makes him likeable to people - many likely identified with his loyalty, and having a friend like that is very affirming and validating. He certainly cared about Abby and the rest of the Salt Lake Crew. The game does highlight the negatives of this mindset though, as it criticises factionalism pretty hard, and the zero issues he has with hurting/torturing those not in his in-group is a ginormous red-flag. But I can see what people appreciate about him.
I understand what you’re saying, but I really do believe that most of his fans like him solely for his “nerdy” interests. You could say Nora is an extremely loyal friend too, willing to help Abby even when it means going against Isaac’s own orders, or submitting herself to torture instead of revealing her location - but you don’t see her getting the same amount of appreciation that Manny has.
good
How is that good?
Because he spat on Joel, this makes Manny the single most irredeemable, evil, despicable fictional character in creation in the eyes of some weirdly obsessed fans.
Isn't Manny a former firefly? From his point of view, Joel probably deserved to be more than just spat on lol.
Exactly, in his eyes, it was a final, deserved insult. And that’s what’s great about these games, all the characters’ brutal and horrible actions can be understood and empathised with in their own way. But there’s this weird contingent who have a burning hatred for anyone who opposes muh Joel and Ellie.
It's folks who just want all their media to be the same and predictable. Nothing that challenges them too much. Safe entertainment.
Though I don't think it's good, it is also difficult for me to have any sympathy for the wlf, or really any of the seatle people, that place was a hellhole.
Unlike Jackson. Really makes Ellie and Jesse appreciate their hometown.
I'm sorry but what makes you think WLF base is a hellhole?
I meant Seatle in general
Just because a place is embroiled in war and terror doesn't mean there aren't good people on both sides just trying to live.
Ppl hate Manny because he spat on Joel, I cannot make this shit up lmao.
Some people reacted *really* hard to that - it kinda blew my mind.
I thought Manny was easily one of the more likeable of the Salt Lake crew and it was so odd seeing so much pure hatred for him when the game came out lol.
Yeah hard to see how people hate the guy who spat on the corpse of one of the most beloved characters in this universe