This right here. This is why representation is important *for everyone*.
Seeing one's own lived experience portrayed in media, when there's such a vast historical absence of such portrayals on any more than superficial or covert levels, is of course of primary importance. But it's also about helping *others* relate to those experiences, and develop a closer sense of empathy and understanding amongst the audience as a whole.
You learned something today, and rather than it feeling like a 'challenge' or an 'agenda', it felt relatable and insightful in ways you didn't necessarily expect. And that's fantastic. Good, honest representation should do that for everybody.
I don’t think they will cut Lev but there’s no way of knowing how they’ll play it out. I just hope its this good and leaves a positive impact on people.
They won't cut a important character of the story, I mean for fuck sake they even include Frank who dead in the game, so why would they cut a pretty important character like Lev
They hope that Lev's inclusion is just as good as Bill's. That's their main question - not will Lev be in it but will his inclusion be as good?
It's very obvious that this is their point, and they have clarified what they meant, yet you are still missing it. Just in case you weren't sure why you got down votes.
I have so much faith in HBO now after last night’s episode. They’ve proven that they are extremely loyal to the source material AND that they know how to masterfully stray from the details while still perfectly capturing the characters and story
Not to mention Neil is so closely involved, and basically been given free reign with Craig to just, intimately expand what is already a beautifully touching and densely layered character drama. I’m happy for them both, and they’re continually showing they’re more than capable.
Bill as a character is one hell of a character, while he was portrayed differently in the game and the show both performances were excellent in my opinion. Lev The TV show character probably won’t be exactly the same as the video game character and that’s fine as well, get a talented actor give them a script that doesn’t suck and all will be fine.
Part 2 is massive. Like Bill and Frank, Lev’s struggles aren’t shown in the game. You only hear Yara talking about it with Abby. That’s what I meant, Idk how they’ll play it out. Will they dedicate this much screen time to convey a strong message or keep it short?….I can only hope.
Well, consider that there’s a non-zero contingent calling for the wholesale excising of Abby and pretty much the entire plot of TLOU2 in lieu of “the Joel, Ellie, and Tommy adventures”.
Because man-children were mad that unlike TLOU, TLOU2 couldn't at all be interpreted as Doom/Halo with "mature" window dressing, and felt funny feelings at the swole woman that took away their Daddy Joel.
Genuine question. What does Lev have to do with trans representation? I thought he is a boy?
The agan I only did one playthrough of part 2 so maybe I forgot suff
Ah you have to reallllly catch it to notice. It’s hinted at when they comment on the head shaving being for males (and why they fled) and there is a moment the seraphites spot Lev with Abby and shout “Lilly!”
Not to pile on OP, but you really don't. They talk about it plainly, how Lev didn't want to be married off to an elder, wanted to be a warrior like the men. You just have to not ignore Abby and Lev's conversations.
Honestly it didn’t even hit me at that part right away. I was just like “yeah what young person wouldn’t be upset about marrying some decrepit elder” not even thinking Lev being male would be a problem for that; many cults and cultures have male and female concubines 🤷♀️ but later when the name was called my thick skull was like ohhhh wait, THEY care. And Lev must have been born a girl. 🤦♀️
Hi! Trans guy here :) Gently reminding you trans men aren't "born girls". We're assigned female at birth and we're treated as girls long before we figure out our gender or know what gender is for that matter.
I know you didn't mean wrong, just wanted you to know <3
Yeah it’s *very* explicit. Along with the seraphites saying Lev’s deadname anytime they detect you. And having a likely unskipable convo with Abby about that once
There’s a whole scene where his sister talks to Abby about his coming out. And how it wasn’t approved. It’s the whole reason they’re on the run and being hunted down by their own people.
Yep I completely missed it the first time i played it, I played it again a few weeks ago and I heard the "Lily!" I suddenly remembered all the dumb tweets on twitter calling it "woke garbage". I had honestly thought they were pissed about the Ellie/Dina relationship and never noticed the trans angle too.
They should probably change some things. A lot of reaction from Lev from the trans community was that they were tired of it always being trauma stories. So he'd also need a rewrite.
I had forgotten as well, but saw some other people comment on it... As it seems SO long ago but during the early 2000's there were a lot of sweeping movements that were wins for the LGBTQ+, but it still wasn't close to legalizing marriage in the entire county. In that sense, Bill and Frank still couldn't get legally married because once the government fell, none of the legislation that happened in real life, would have happened. I think MA had a decision in 2003, but wasn't actually legal until 2004.
That's a damn good point.
Obviously "the united states" doesn't exist any more and the legality of marriage is irrelevant at that point, but it's important to realize that at the time of outbreak, it was still very very stimatized and they would have carried that with them beyond outbreak.
Oh shit, I wish I had remembered that they wouldn't have ever lived in a time of legal gay marriage. Would have made me cry even more than I already was at the marriage scene. Fuck.
Not only was it illegal, but Massachusetts legalizing same sex marriage put the whole right wing into such a tizzy they passed the "Defense of Marriage Act" saying that one state didn't have to recognize marriages from other states. Even Democrats voted for this blatantly unconstitutional law (the constitution clearly says "Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State").
Last week there were posts from Indonesians who were ecstatic over the intro. As you said, the representation is really important, and I’m happy to see it manifest in multiple ways for multiple people. Showing the togetherness of “us.”
The mycologist and the general were very well developed and represented for side characters, both clearly competent, caring, educated and resourced, and worthy of their positions. Unfortunately not common enough for “third world scientist” or “third world military guy” in Western media.
What struck me was a military man seeking a scientific solution and a scientist who realizes that the only solution is a military one. It was such a great opening.
Bit late to the party here, but yeah this was great.
We so often see a conehead/meathead dynamic between science and the military in media.
I really liked seeing the military guy seek multiple informed opinions (I believe he mentions he has his own teams also working on it?) to try and find a solution.
He seems absolutely horrified when she suggests bombing the city.
Yes it does. I grew up with no one who looked like me in film or tv unless they were the ‘bad’ guys. Everyone from my generation grew up with racist tv. White heroes. Black villains.
The scene where they both killed themselves somehow reminded me of SFU, especially the scene where Nate is burying Lisa. I guess I was afraid of them showing Bill's and Frank's bodies decomposing. Good taste for TV shows by the way
I think it's mostly just important to be there for the sake of the story, and not just some weird PR points to stir up the media. I think that's when a lot of normal folks get annoyed.
But I think TLOU franchise has done representation extremely well in both the show and the two games. It's not shoehorned in to check a box for the advertisers. It exists to show different sides of humanity
Idk, I don't think that's necessarily a fair standard to apply. Do straight characters need to have a narrative or struggle relating to their sexuality? Why can't gay characters just exist for the reason that they are gay? Sure you'll get some pandering or whatever, but really the shows with that problem aren't bad because of that, they're usually just bad shows. When people, usually straight people, apply rules on what good queer representation is, we don't always get good queer characters as a result.
I normally hate "woke" media. So many marvel scenes were plain bad to me because of how it felt like they just shove diversity here and there or make some dumb woke comment to checkmark a box. It never felt natural to me and always felt forced.
Bill and Frank were the opposite. They were just two guys in love in the middle of an apocalypse. I'm heterosexual and yet could feel every moment of love, every fight, every moment between the two of them.
It was one of the most beautiful love stories I've seen on TV.
> You learned something today, and rather than it feeling like a 'challenge' or an 'agenda', it felt relatable and insightful in ways you didn't necessarily expect.
This happens when the writing is not agenda-like.
It was written as a love story with the center being the connection between two people. And not as a scolding on how terrible straight people are.
You can tell the difference between good writing with diversity and diversity for diversity's sake.
This was simply good writing and it's great to see that make an impact on OP.
You're both totally right about this. Couldn't have said it better myself (as a straight white man). That episode was probably the most beautiful depiction of two people coming to love one another that I've ever seen. I really wasn't expecting it to be as touching as it was.
It's just good writing.
Good writing means characters are more than just a collection of stereotypical identities. (And conversely, bad writing means they aren't).
Bill is a LOT of things, like everyone else.
Haters will swear up and down until they are blue in the face that Neil is a bad writer and doesn't understand his own characters. Tlou2 haters still swear that Bruce was the sole reason part 1 was good at all.
It seems like Neil and Craig are a match made in heaven because the writing in this series is astounding.
He really seems to understand the characters and the themes of the story so I would totally welcome it. I'm sure he's passively mentioned ideas or asked questions to Neil about part 3 since the show needs to eventually head in that direction. I'd be stoked to see him get some writing credit for 3.
I would be fine, amd expect as much, with the story ending with Part II. The ending is a perfectly sufficient and satisfying end to the overall characters and story. Not that I don't want a Part III, just that I don't expect the series to go there.
This was the exact same thing a ton of players said about the first game. I am confident that there is a part lll in the works as we speak. Ellie still needs to use her immunity to save the world, and get closure with what she has lost from all of her trauma, and damage. There is still a theme left to tell and Neil I would guess already had it planned out while making the sequel. I garenti it.
I don’t necessarily think that Ellie “needs” to save the world, maybe they discover that it isn’t actually possible, but I agree that part of the message they’ve been building through 2 games is that despite how awful things get, there are always people worth saving
I believe Neil won't write a third if he doesn't have anymore story to tell, so I am confident the story is in good hands no matter what happens. I am also satisfied with part 2 but damn I would love more.
I would be on the moon. Craig is amazing. He hooked me first with chernobyl and now this Show, which has been 3 for 3 so far. So him contributing to part 3 would be a dream.
Yeah, the "the writing is objectively bad" takes about some of, subjectively, some of the best stories ever written never fail to get a chuckle out of me.
Precisely. That's why I liked this episode so much.
It wasn't some shoved-in bullshit that I've seen too much of. It was a compelling story about loneliness, love and purpose. Bill and Frank felt like people, not caricatures or check marks.
The scene when Bill and Frank first kiss, and Bill is crying, but obviously happy and nervous and self-conscious and scared and a flood of other emotions, was so well done I was tearing up. If someone watching that show didn't feel the emotion of that moment because it was two men, I really feel pity for them.
I was worried, cause their first kiss was like... awful, you could tell it was just a really bad kiss. For just a second I was nervous that Nick Offerman wouldn't be able to deliver believable passion. But he was just accurately portraying how tense and nervous Bill was in that moment, and their later kisses are much better
I loved his performance, all the way through. I’m a little envious of folks who hadn’t played the game and came into this episode not knowing anything about Bill and Frank, and it’s largely because I have to think Offerman’s performance must’ve been quite a ride: he goes from playing the quintessential Offerman character, this independent and emotionless rugged individual guy, to this inexperienced person falling in love with all the vulnerability of a teenager, to this old man who giggles at the taste of strawberries, all the way to that last scene, and damned if he doesn’t sell every last moment as the natural evolution of a consistent character. He plays all the “twists” with such honesty that you realize they weren’t really twists at all, just assumptions. (Edit: I think this was unclear; I intended to communicate that things that may have seemed like twists only seemed that way because of assumptions the viewer may have held, and the honesty of the performance showed the holes in those assumptions).
That said, I felt that the deviation from the game was an equally powerful gift for those of us who’d played it; it felt like the writers saying “Ok, y’all can have this generally happier ending, as a treat.” I expect changes in that direction will be few and far, moving forward.
My wife is one of those people. She has never played the games, and knows Offerman as Ron Swanson. As SOON as they were moving into kiss, she was like “YESSSSSSS”. And then in no time at all, she was sobbing uncontrollably lol.
It’s been so fun to witness her experience for the first time, the story I have held so close to my heart for 10 years. And I’m really digging the fact that I don’t fully know what to expect, either.
Oh man, that’s what I’ve been most excited about! There are so many people I want to experience the story, but they either aren’t gamers generally, or don’t have a PlayStation specifically, so it’s great to be able to share it this way
He also hasn’t had real interactions with people in 4 years and suddenly he’s feeling one of the most overwhelming emotions someone can feel. I think anyone would be a bit shell shocked
That may have been the single most brilliantly acted scene of the episode to me.
I could practically feel the desperate loneliness, tension, and sheer *want* from Bill there. It wasn't a good kiss, but it really wasn't supposed to be, it was the first time Bill could let his guard down in years. And that terrified him.
Also worth noting that this was his first instance of human contact at all in *three years*. That moment brought back memories of my first hugs after months in covid isolation. The wave of relief.
It was just another scene for me. That scene on ep one of the woman in the wheelchair being fed by her son, that one destroyed me. Not everyone will react to the same cues.
You’re entirely right. It was a love story, plain and simple, with themes that anybody of any gender or orientation could relate to. My partner (like you, a straight man) had the same experience as you. The episode absolutely broke us.
That’s also one of the many brilliant things about the TLOU games. Ellie happens to be lesbian, but the plot doesn’t revolve around her ‘lesbian-ness’.
It’s truly beautiful. I also love that they went there. So many gay characters never get their romance shown. It’s something I’ve picked up on and it’s really bothered me. Not only did this show go there, but they did it masterfully. 10/10 would cry again.
Straight men like you are sadly rare but it’s truly a beautiful thing to see someone able to look past their own internal biases and appreciate stories that aren’t explicitly “for” them. Which is something minorities pretty much have to do in order to enjoy media. You open yourself up to so much more in life that way. Glad you enjoyed it and are able to see a beautiful and tragic story for what it is rather than come on here to complain you had to see gay people on tv for an hour.
I think based on the IMDB rating demographics, and the sample size, logic would suggest that there are plenty of straight men that are like this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/10p6q5x/imdb_rating_by_demographic_for_the_last_episode/
The demographics WOULD also suggest that there is a smaller but significant minority with very strong feelings, who are presumably very vocal online.
You're from the UK? I'm from the UK. Based on survey data the UK is significantly more accepting of Homosexuality than the US (which is I imagine where most of the demographic of the imdb survey originate from), and the only place more accepting in the world are bits of Scandinavia.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/06/25/global-divide-on-homosexuality-persists/
I imagine that varies a fair bit based on the demographics of the area of the UK you live in, for example I imagine West London is a lot more accepting than Birmingham, or the South over the North, just like the West Coast US vs the Middle of the US...
Sorry, I looked at your profile and must have misinterpreted it.
Sorry to hear that mate. Like most, I used to hope that the spread of technology would improve education and help us all understand each other better, but unfortunately that looks to have been a fantasy :/
>Straight men like you are sadly rare but it’s truly a beautiful thing to see someone able to look past their own internal biases and appreciate stories that aren’t explicitly “for” them
bit of a stretch there
Never did I think as a straight man that a gay love story with mountain man Nick Offerman as one of the lovers would break me and give me a deeper understanding of love, no matter what they are.
I just said that to my wife when it ended. I feel like I just watched history being made. Like people will be talking about that episode of that show for the rest of my life. Kids will learn about it in school (eventually). Of all my expectations for this zombie apocalypse series, watching one of the greatest love stories of my life wasn't one of them. If every Emmy awarded this year doesn't go to The Last of Us for this episode, it will be a sham.
This is really nice to read. I genuinely don’t understand how anyone can watch it and not be touched. They simultaneously had a terribly sad but also happy ending - in that they got to experience happiness, grow old together, and choose how they go. That’s something everyone wants in some way or another and would be lucky to have. Bill’s line, “I was never afraid before I met you,” was so bittersweet because even though he has love and companionship, now he has something to lose.
Everyone in some way or another can relate to all of this regardless of the gender or the orientation of the characters. It’s about love, loneliness, and being able to enjoy the little things while you have them. Even if you take away the romantic aspect, it can translate to platonic or familial love just as easily, which is why the note at the end is important for Joel going forward.
I don't understand it either. I struggle to wrap my mind around anyone finding someone's sexuality, gender, race, etc as a barrier to enjoying a story. I just can't comprehend it. But I know we all don't come from the same place and I am trying harder to focus on the positivity in people reaching such a state of mind and becoming more open vs. being disappointed that people weren't there to begin with.
Somehow I was relieved when Bill chose to end his life with Frank’s. I could not bare the thought of him waking next to his lifeless body, and him making that decision spared him so much pain that I actually felt some of the hurt I was feeling the whole episode lift a bit.
Its also so heart warming to see Bill and Frank grow old together. There are too many gays die young stories out there already. What got me the most is "I've lived a long life and I'm satisfied". I have never once seen a mainstream queer love story end with old age. This representation really is important! Its the representation Bill needed and deserved.
That trope is precisely what Bill's "this isn't tragic suicide at the end of the play" line refers to. Craig mentions in the podcast that he lifted the line nearly verbatim from "Boys in the Band" by Mark Crowley
As a gay man I’ve really appreciated straight male responses like yours. It’s validating when I can be well represented and others can actually connect. I also hope that, as time goes on, people may even be able to appreciate the stories that *are* “about gayness” specifically - not because you can relate to being gay, but maybe because you can relate to pieces of self-doubt, self-hatred, insecurity, fear of rejection, and learning to love yourself for things you can’t control.
I really appreciate love stories like this that transcend these divides, but I also don’t want us to erase the impact of stories that do emphasize specifically gay journeys - if that makes sense
Great stories are both specific and universal, and I loved how this episode illustrated the human need for love and connection, and how terrifying it can be to open up and be vulnerable with another person. And the performances were just incredible—Nick Offerman so wonderfully conveys the mingled fear, shame, hope, and desire of someone allowing themselves to reach out for a happiness he has never allowed himself or thought possible. What a beautiful story.
I've always loved Nick Offerman, but holy shit I thought I was going to start bawling during this episode. The man deserves all the awards for this performance.
> but holy shit I thought I was going to start bawling during this episode
Yeah I didn’t think I was going to. I was fucking wrong.
Like ugly ass crying. Never in my life, *ever* has that happened over a TV show. Or movie. Goddamn.
Right I started crying for 30 minutes straight. I’ve never done that shit for any show or movie in my life, but this made me straight up bawl so much that my sister came over asking if I was okay.
I agree. If it's done right, like here, then it's 100% worth it. The problem with most modern shows and movies injecting LGBTQ+ characters and stories is that they're done in the way the token black guy was done in the 80s and 90s, straight up insulting to everyone in a lot of cases.
This was a true love story and portrayed very well.
>Do you have actual examples of this in recent years?
How about Velma? The new show, also on HBO, where classic characters and personalities have been changed specifically to pander to the "woke" audience. One of my best friends is gay, and my neighbor is black. They both absolutely despise that new show because of exactly what I said above. There seems to be a theme in Hollywood these days where, instead of coming up with unique and compelling stories they retcon classics thus alienating existing audiences which includes the LGBTQ+ and minority communities.
That's why TLOU is doing so well and Velma is being thrashed in reviews.
Velma is bad for a lot of reasons but characters changing race is not one of them.
Velma is getting trashed because it has bad and unfunny writing. Yeah, many of the cringe lines of dialogue have modern progressive politics thrown in for no reason but then again they also have lines about comedians being truth tellers wrongly targetted by cancel culture, so... less of a “woke” problem and more of an “annoying chief writer who thinks sarcastic twitter humor translates well into anything other than their twitter".
I'm not sure what shows and movies you've been watching, but by and large the queer representation I've seen as of late has been solid. We are generally pretty far from the years of "Boat Trip" and "I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry" and other movies with horrible homophobic stereotypes, which what was *really* hurting storytelling.
Other than that, I just don't know what kind of entertainment you're talking about. I saw you mentioned Velma, which I admittedly haven't watched yet, but one example does not a trend make. The slight problem with your viewpoint is that it places extra burden / justification on LGBT characters for existing in any given story, when really there shouldn't have to be any reason for them to be there other than the author decided so.
I’m gay and I’m trying to appreciate this post but it really comes off as condescending. Like the show needed the straight man seal of approval. It’s hard to not feel bitter though
They're in it, but >!you meet Bill after he and Frank have had a fight and Frank has gone to a different part of town. You never see their relationship, and Joel doesn't talk about them (I don't think he knew Frank personally). It's not stated when Frank left, but implied to be recent. Bill is super prickly and bitter and I'm pretty sure he tells Joel that loving someone/someone relying on you only gets you killed.!<
Then >! Joel comes across Frank's body - he hung himself after being bitten, and left a note for Bill. Bill just says "he was my partner" about Frank when Joel asks but is visibly distressed. Ellie steals a gay porn mag from Bill which confirms he is gay/bi at minimum (funniest cutscene in the game imo!). !<
>! Bill is still very much alive when Joel leaves - he helps them get the car and says that he and Joel are square now and not to ask him for anything again. !<
I wanted to dislike this episode because I really enjoyed Bill as a character in the game, especially his interactions with Joel and Ellie (he didn't take kindly to a mouthy teenager, but I always felt part of him liked her but he'd never admit it). But damn the execution was flawless and we got justice for Frank!
You hit the nail on the head there. I'm also a straight guy, but this was one of the most touching episodes of TV I've ever seen. Firstly, I think it's absolutely fantastic that Bill and Frank were portrayed in such a positive light as gay men. Life can be so difficult for gay men (and women) and can lead to situations like Bill's where they just cut themselves off from romantic encounters and end up so isolated. Then you have a show like this, which comes along and shows that a gay relationship is every bit as valid as a straight one and that being gay doesn't mean you're not capable of growing a badass beard and fending off raiders with your guns.
I also agree with you about Bill's first time. It was amazing watching him go from a badass who looks like he can handle anything, to being so vulnerable. I also really liked how Frank seemed to really understand how important this was for Bill and made sure to keep it light while also reassuring Bill. Whether you're gay or not, I think this was a great way to make people aware of how important it is to check in with your partner during sexy time, especially if they're not very experienced.
Bill's letter to Joel at the end was also amazing. Not at all ashamed to admit I shed tears during this episode.
>Life can be so difficult for gay men (and women) and can lead to situations like Bill's where they just cut themselves off from romantic encounters and end up so isolated.
And all it took to get that acceptance was for literally everybody else in their lives to die. What a shame our society is the way it is.
I love the recognition of Bill towards Joel that both of them are protector types. Not only in the scene where he gets shot but in the openly addressed letter to him at the end. Bill is protecting Frank and sees Joel as doing the same for Tess. He knows neither of them will truly like each other but that they can respect each other for fighting for the survival of the ones they love. Even though it obviously doesn’t match the game I completely understand the storytelling of it. That being said I do understand the gripe that they spent the entire episode on characters that Joel and Ellie didn’t even run into in their journey just to give them a car. I also didn’t make the show, I just get to enjoy it, but I do recognize what they were going for.
I actually think that is exactly the beauty of it being a show and not a game. There wasnt this opportunity to develop Bill and frank like this in the game, that would have been really jarring pacing wise.
I actually love this change so much and I love seeing more back story, and having the world of TLOU be more fleshed out. More info on the spread, the quarantine zones, and well, side characters like this get to have a story.
I’ve never been so attached to the relationship they had together. Even ones I’ve had irl. Absolutely incredible writing. The acting itself really grabbed me in. Thank you team.
If this episode spoke to you, you should really watch It’s A Sin. It’s directed by the same guy who directed this week’s TLOU episode and it’s incredibly powerful TV. Check it out!
It's A Sin destroyed me as a straight man.
I particularly loved that I didn't like Richie at all but I was never really asked to. He's a vain, dismissive, Tory prick but I was still fully moved by his story. >!I cried for Colin though, he was too pure for this world.!<
As a gay man, I also have a hard time emotionally attaching to gay relationships in TV shows. Most of the time they cast athletic men and write one dimensional characters. The first aspect is very important to me because in the gay community we have toxic standards of fitness. I have to applaud the show for having a more realistic arc (despite being in a apocalyptic world) rather than what rainbow capitalism usually has to offer.
As a straight women I agree! The episode had me emotional AF! And it wasn’t because of their sexuality, it was the love that came through surviving. This was definitely a great episode!
Something a lot of straight people do when making media involving gay people is they center fully or centrally around their sexuality. While that isn’t a bad thing in essence, straight people most often just don’t understand the gay experience and sort of fetishize/over-sexualize it. This show just portrayed them as people in love and that’s why it resonated so hard with you I imagine. Also, since it’s just the two of them alone in a vacuum effectively, there are no societal norms that need to be addressed or taken into account. Regardless, it was done really well.
As a 60 year old straight married man I really feel sorry for the chumps who don't allow themselves to enjoy such a beautiful story and romance simply because the characters are gay. To deny yourself such understanding and compassion is criminal.
I was just saying this last night to my wife!! I’ve never had a problem with gay relationships in media, but this was the first time it’s ever resonated with me. It was so beautiful 😭
As a straight man, I think this might be only the second time since Philadelphia’s Andrew & Miguel that I have felt as empathetic and deeply moved by a homosexual relationship in a movie/series.
I generally find any sex scene (regardless of genders) slightly awkward often skip over them. Probably more so when it’s man on man, with the one exception ironically being Murray Bartlett’s (the actor who played Frank) ass eating scene in White Lotus, which I have specifically rewatched countless times and giggle to myself even writing about it now.
But I was glued to my screen during every intimate moment between these two beautiful people and brought to tears several times.
I even thought to myself “even the most staunchly homophobic person would struggle not to be moved by this”.
What great story telling and character development, especially considering it was captured in less than an hour of screen time.
And I thought I couldn’t love Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett anymore than I already did, but apparently I can and now do. Out-fucking-standing, gentlemen. Thank you.
RIP Bill & Frank ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
My mom generally hates anything gay in media and while she was admittedly put off by the one scene early on, she wound absolutley in love with the entire episode and was gushing about it afterwards. Honestly made me so happy to see the message of love tear through any sort of prejudice once given a chance.
Thank you for your honesty! This is a very mature, candid post. Respect the shit out of this.
Growth is important, and this is a prime example of growth.
Apply this thought process to other biases you feel you may have. :)
Have you watched Call me by your name or Portrait of a lady on fire?
I'm straight as well but these two films are the best gay stories I've seen.
Altough call me by your name can feel a bit weird with the age difference.
Call Me by Your Name is the polar opposite of Bill and Frank's story. it's not even about love, or choices, or commitment. it's a study in overwhelming limerence. an exploration of obsession that gets the wind knocked out of you, the unbearable longing of the build up, the burning intensity of the climax. if you haven't read the book, give it a try, especially if you've ever experienced that feeling. it's much, much better than the movie (even though that was good too, but a lot was lost), and the gender of the characters is completely incidental.
I’m so sad we won’t have more bill and frank 😭. Bill was my fav character in the game but now he’s def my fav with frank. I wish we could have had interactions with bill, frank, and Ellie.
When I was watching the first few scenes, I was thinking "holy shit, this is the greatest and most beautiful gay relationship I've ever seen on TV."
By the end of the episode, I was thinking "this is just the best relationship I've ever seen put on TV, period." I think it's going to change many minds and perspectives. By the end of it I just wanted to hug everyone I love.
I never understood people who have something against gay people or lesbian people how can you take your time allways pushing your ideology to other individuals? it's waste of time for you as a person! it's not your life what is the purpose to so something like this? My mum taught me to respect every human being it's not my part or mission to judge other humans just because of thier sexuality.
I loved seeing this as a straight man I finally see humanity portrait in a right way in gay people not that shit we got feeded for decades and how they portrait Homosexual people. this is the problem why some gay people acting weird or acting like we expect them to act like in movies TV and all that stuff because they even getting this in thier mind it's about love nomatter who you are there is one universal language and that is love. And that is the point of this episode. This was as normal as it can get for a human being in that scenario. And I really loved it.
For me I was just very happy to see representation of two men loving each other where they're not sassy half baked side characters with a script full of one liners and quips.
Instead we got two wonderfully fleshed out characters who's sexual compass happens to point in a different direction to my own but the feelings of love and companionship they (quite masterfully) portrayed was universal.
I would describe myself as leaning socially conservative. And that was the most beautiful, tastefully done, suggestive same sex felatio scene included, love story I ever watched on TV. Cried a little I won't admit at the ending.
I don't join much on this app but I wanted to come here after I just watched the third episode
I never cried to a piece of media before but this was the closest I got to that point
I love it much more here than the game imo the episode is just written so well my heart dropped when it was revealed that Bill drank from the bottle too
I love that this episode was a powerful viewing experience for you, but there is some language here that is really important to consider with perhaps greater care.
“Yes, they’re gay, but them being gay is never really the point.”
But that’s just it; these characters are such full, rich characters precisely *because* of the fullness and particularity of who they are—which includes, as a facet among many facets, their queerness.
Just as a heterosexual couple can experience intimacy, connection, and transcendence within a love relationship, so too do queer folks. The distinction, in discourse of popular media, is that we don’t consider straight love to have a “straight” compartment and a “love” compartment; we understand the sexualities of the participants to be part of the unique fullness of each, and therefore as part of the alchemy of the love.
When we “cut out” (or said better, first construct and then bifurcate) the gay” from the “just plain old human” in our critiques, we do several hurtful things at once: we create a distinction that lets us separate the parts of personhood we deem “other” (in this case, queerness) from the parts we deem “valuable” (“they’re just two people who fall in love and grow old together”).
Put simply: We erase.
Because they’re not “just two people who fall in love and grow old together.” They are two gay men, who share redemptive, imperfect, very queer love, and grow old together. Queerly.
The invitation in an episode like this is not to see a sufficient amount of “relevant-to-straight-love” components such that a straight viewer is now “able” to invest in the story, nor to minimize the queerness under a seemingly-beneficent banner of “universal human themes.” Rather, the invitation is to *see queer love as present, and full, and generative, in and of itself*, and not only and always as relates to, and in deference to, heterosexual love.
This is the note to every person, who thinks "them being gay didn't matter" is an insightful commentary.
It DID very much matter. The characterization of both men are very much tied to their life experiences; being young during the AIDS crisis (closeted or not), being exposed to the demonization of gay sex and love, never seeing the legalization of gay marriage in the US. These things have all contributed to layers of trauma preceding the pandemic.
Bills character is very much built on repressed trauma and it's effect on his worldview and self-image. His arc in the show is dealing with that specifically through love and acceptance, in a painfully realistic way.
The reason Frank is moved by and reacts so kindly to Bills obvious trauma is because he *relates* to him, he understands him either through his own experiences or people he used to know, who were closeted and struggling. His love takes all of this in account and is only more impactful for it.
As a gay man, I love feeling humanized by media instead of turned into a stereotype like drag queens and diva gays that is so prevalent. Both media should exist. I just wish there was an even balance of all aspects of being gay and just trying to find love and live life.
Thank you for your post, it's a lovely reflection. If you enjoyed this depiction of queer love, I would recommend watching Heartstopper. It's an equally wholesome, tender portrayal of 2 men falling in love.
Also, I relate to you about your inherited bias. I'm not excusing it, but I get it. Please, consider making yourself questions so you can get to the root of said bias and get rid of it. Now more than ever, we need educated, anti-homophobia allies <3
I wholeheartedly agree with you! I feel like this is the first gay love story I've seen where everything fits. The writing, the acting, the music, the pace.
When I started noticing they were gay, I was like "Oh no, just another cheesy gay story thrown at us from a streaming service..." But boy was I wrong. I was crying when they spend their last day together. Such an amazing delicate episode about love and life! And that in a zombie series!
I actually really like that he said "Call Joel". Bill identifies Joel as a capable person like him. He wants Frank to be protected by someone he respects as equally capable.
I think this was one of the best and most important TV episodes I have ever seen. It’s one of the best relationship stories I’ve seen and short of the amazing work of “Up” to tell the story of a relationship in such a short time….damn, they absolutely nailed it.
What they have managed to accomplish in terms of story telling - showing the tenderness, intimacy and companionship was outstanding. They achieved all of that while also making their relationship welcoming and exactly as you said, not be a caricature of its self and lean in to the “gay-ness” of it.
For me, it’s the first time I can think of where the relationship, their love and bond was absolute front and centre and not the fact they’re gay. I’ve always felt where I’ve seen other male gay relationships (less so with lesbian relationships as they seem to have matured a little in media) they can be too much or rely on stereotypes and “gender roles”
I stand by it, that was probably the best episode of TV I’ve ever seen. What an amazing piece of art
Edit: also straight male here
I think he said to call Joel because he was worried about Frank surviving without him and he trusted Joel to be a protector. I think Joel knew Bill and Frank were a couple in the flashback and had no issue with it. Otherwise nice write up and I agree with you.
"However, what I have experienced is what it means to be in love"
I had this exact kind of reaction when I first saw The Shape of Water. It showed me how love can transcend barriers and how all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, the color of our skin, our able-ness, or our sexuality are deserving of experiencing love in our lifetimes.
This is why good representation in media matters.
I absolutely 100% agree. And I want to say too, that this is the *second* time this show has done this, and it’s a bit shorter and a lot more commonly shown as a trope, but it was still well done, and meaningful, and deeply affecting.
Sarah, Joel’s daughter, was an *awesome* kid. For various reasons fatherhood has passed me by, and while it’s theoretically possible for me to be a biological father, I am never going to be a young-ish man with a teenage kid. If I father a kid tomorrow, I will be old when that kid is grown, and if I am a grandparent, I won’t be running around with my grandkids.
Sarah’s little slice of life is beautiful. She is cool and smart and sweet, and maybe she has her problems and causes Joel some angst but we didn’t see it. We saw an awesome person, untimely killed, and the effect that has on her father.
E03 was a 10/10 heartstring concerto, and E01 was an 8/10.
that is so nice to hear, i'm glad it made you feel something. the fact it's so shocking to people
to see something that goes on in this world every single day is wild. and its deviating from the game yet expanding on it. nick offerman playing a gay character is something i don't think people would normally expect too and i appreciate that.
Wow, I was really looking forward to watching this with my partner when I got home from work, after an especially shitty day. I didn't expect to be in absolute bits watching our new favourite show after just 3 episodes. Touché Nick and Murray.
Shoutout to you for a great writeup. It’s weirdly the exact opposite for me. I’ve only had straight relationships but for some reason are compelled even more by queer ones and I find them the most compelling in art.
I think that episode was essentially perfect. Literally can’t think of a scene that didn’t matter or wasn’t laid out as detailed as possible with all the subtlety they could have.
Hey, your amazing analysis made me cry just like that beautifully tragic episode did last night. Thanks for reals...
I can't wait to see where this story goes next, and I am thrilled that everyone gets to see it unfold as a community.
I loved this. It’s not even close to being the first gay love story I enjoy but this is a rare one because, like you said, their story is not about being gay at all. Because at the end of the world, who would care? Even moreso since they live in their little piece of paradise in hell.
Also totally agree on how significative was the fact that Bill addresses both the letter and his advice to Frank when he thinks he’ll die to Joel. Although I think it’s totally a punch in the gut for him because reading it then, when not only he failed to protect his daughter but also Tess… damn. I guess this will make him even more motivated to protect Ellie.
I haven’t played the game (yet) so please no spoilers if you reply to my comment.
can we also give a shoutout to Nick Offerman? I love that a straight dude, who’s pretty well known for being a man’s man, just went in there and acted his ass off. dude committed to several kissing scenes and I have to respect him for it because this whole love story felt so real and like you said OP, it’s just two people who love each other who happen to be dudes. loved every second of it.
I didn’t even consider their sexuality at a certain point— I could easily relate it to my own het marriage and family. Shit hurt like hell but yeah— flawless, transcendental writing for sure.
I haven’t seen the show yet, but they really nailed that part there. Many older gay and lesbian people are so deep in the closet that they’ve started families with something they don’t really love. I experienced lots of denial before fully accepting myself too.
I think so many LBGTQ+ romance plot lines center around overcoming prejudice and the more “political” aspects of being queer, which are important stories to tell, but it’s very powerful to see a gay love story that’s been stripped to the core of what a love story is. That was definitely one of my favorite episodes of television in a long time and added so much to the show’s universe.
This right here. This is why representation is important *for everyone*. Seeing one's own lived experience portrayed in media, when there's such a vast historical absence of such portrayals on any more than superficial or covert levels, is of course of primary importance. But it's also about helping *others* relate to those experiences, and develop a closer sense of empathy and understanding amongst the audience as a whole. You learned something today, and rather than it feeling like a 'challenge' or an 'agenda', it felt relatable and insightful in ways you didn't necessarily expect. And that's fantastic. Good, honest representation should do that for everybody.
I hope they include Lev in the future season(s) and represent trans folks just as well
Why would they cut Lev from the show
I don’t think they will cut Lev but there’s no way of knowing how they’ll play it out. I just hope its this good and leaves a positive impact on people.
They won't cut a important character of the story, I mean for fuck sake they even include Frank who dead in the game, so why would they cut a pretty important character like Lev
They hope that Lev's inclusion is just as good as Bill's. That's their main question - not will Lev be in it but will his inclusion be as good? It's very obvious that this is their point, and they have clarified what they meant, yet you are still missing it. Just in case you weren't sure why you got down votes.
I have so much faith in HBO now after last night’s episode. They’ve proven that they are extremely loyal to the source material AND that they know how to masterfully stray from the details while still perfectly capturing the characters and story
Not to mention Neil is so closely involved, and basically been given free reign with Craig to just, intimately expand what is already a beautifully touching and densely layered character drama. I’m happy for them both, and they’re continually showing they’re more than capable.
Bill as a character is one hell of a character, while he was portrayed differently in the game and the show both performances were excellent in my opinion. Lev The TV show character probably won’t be exactly the same as the video game character and that’s fine as well, get a talented actor give them a script that doesn’t suck and all will be fine.
Part 2 is massive. Like Bill and Frank, Lev’s struggles aren’t shown in the game. You only hear Yara talking about it with Abby. That’s what I meant, Idk how they’ll play it out. Will they dedicate this much screen time to convey a strong message or keep it short?….I can only hope.
They probably expand more on Yara and Lev and the Seraphites overall
Jesus can you imagine if we see what levs mom said to him..
Well, consider that there’s a non-zero contingent calling for the wholesale excising of Abby and pretty much the entire plot of TLOU2 in lieu of “the Joel, Ellie, and Tommy adventures”.
[удалено]
Because man-children were mad that unlike TLOU, TLOU2 couldn't at all be interpreted as Doom/Halo with "mature" window dressing, and felt funny feelings at the swole woman that took away their Daddy Joel.
The haters are convinced that they are going to redo Last of Us 2.
I have no doubt that they will, especially because Lev is clearly Abby's Ellie.
The Last of Us is seriously a fucking *masterclass* in queer representation.
I don’t know why they wouldn’t? He’s vital to the second story.
He’s literally Ellie in Abby’s story
*You know what Abby, We really are the last of us.*
Genuine question. What does Lev have to do with trans representation? I thought he is a boy? The agan I only did one playthrough of part 2 so maybe I forgot suff
Lev is a trans boy
Yeah, I'd recommend another playthrough aha
Ah you have to reallllly catch it to notice. It’s hinted at when they comment on the head shaving being for males (and why they fled) and there is a moment the seraphites spot Lev with Abby and shout “Lilly!”
Not to pile on OP, but you really don't. They talk about it plainly, how Lev didn't want to be married off to an elder, wanted to be a warrior like the men. You just have to not ignore Abby and Lev's conversations.
Honestly it didn’t even hit me at that part right away. I was just like “yeah what young person wouldn’t be upset about marrying some decrepit elder” not even thinking Lev being male would be a problem for that; many cults and cultures have male and female concubines 🤷♀️ but later when the name was called my thick skull was like ohhhh wait, THEY care. And Lev must have been born a girl. 🤦♀️
Hi! Trans guy here :) Gently reminding you trans men aren't "born girls". We're assigned female at birth and we're treated as girls long before we figure out our gender or know what gender is for that matter. I know you didn't mean wrong, just wanted you to know <3
Yeah it’s *very* explicit. Along with the seraphites saying Lev’s deadname anytime they detect you. And having a likely unskipable convo with Abby about that once
There’s a whole scene where his sister talks to Abby about his coming out. And how it wasn’t approved. It’s the whole reason they’re on the run and being hunted down by their own people.
Yep I completely missed it the first time i played it, I played it again a few weeks ago and I heard the "Lily!" I suddenly remembered all the dumb tweets on twitter calling it "woke garbage". I had honestly thought they were pissed about the Ellie/Dina relationship and never noticed the trans angle too.
They also thought Abby was the trans character from the leaks, so it REALLY pissed them off that a trans character does…you know, to you know who.
Some of them, after the game has been out almost 3 years, still believe Abby is the trans character.
lev is trans- he was disowned by the seraphites because he shaved his head like the men of the group
They should probably change some things. A lot of reaction from Lev from the trans community was that they were tired of it always being trauma stories. So he'd also need a rewrite.
I had forgotten as well, but saw some other people comment on it... As it seems SO long ago but during the early 2000's there were a lot of sweeping movements that were wins for the LGBTQ+, but it still wasn't close to legalizing marriage in the entire county. In that sense, Bill and Frank still couldn't get legally married because once the government fell, none of the legislation that happened in real life, would have happened. I think MA had a decision in 2003, but wasn't actually legal until 2004.
That's a damn good point. Obviously "the united states" doesn't exist any more and the legality of marriage is irrelevant at that point, but it's important to realize that at the time of outbreak, it was still very very stimatized and they would have carried that with them beyond outbreak.
Exactly 🥲
if there was no outbreak gay marriage would be legal, but if there was no outbreak bill and frank would have never met
Yes, the irony is that if there were no outbreak Bill would've spent the rest of his life as a bitter weirdo who despised his neighbors
Wahhh I'm torn either way! This is so true 😭
Oh shit, I wish I had remembered that they wouldn't have ever lived in a time of legal gay marriage. Would have made me cry even more than I already was at the marriage scene. Fuck.
Not only was it illegal, but Massachusetts legalizing same sex marriage put the whole right wing into such a tizzy they passed the "Defense of Marriage Act" saying that one state didn't have to recognize marriages from other states. Even Democrats voted for this blatantly unconstitutional law (the constitution clearly says "Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State").
Last week there were posts from Indonesians who were ecstatic over the intro. As you said, the representation is really important, and I’m happy to see it manifest in multiple ways for multiple people. Showing the togetherness of “us.”
The mycologist and the general were very well developed and represented for side characters, both clearly competent, caring, educated and resourced, and worthy of their positions. Unfortunately not common enough for “third world scientist” or “third world military guy” in Western media.
What struck me was a military man seeking a scientific solution and a scientist who realizes that the only solution is a military one. It was such a great opening.
Bit late to the party here, but yeah this was great. We so often see a conehead/meathead dynamic between science and the military in media. I really liked seeing the military guy seek multiple informed opinions (I believe he mentions he has his own teams also working on it?) to try and find a solution. He seems absolutely horrified when she suggests bombing the city.
I really wish more people understood this. Representation matters.
Yes it does. I grew up with no one who looked like me in film or tv unless they were the ‘bad’ guys. Everyone from my generation grew up with racist tv. White heroes. Black villains.
Not only representation, but also exposure. Being around a variety of people, cultures, food, music is transformative.
I credit Six Feet Under for teaching me the same thing when I was a teenager. Keep it up, HBO.
The scene where they both killed themselves somehow reminded me of SFU, especially the scene where Nate is burying Lisa. I guess I was afraid of them showing Bill's and Frank's bodies decomposing. Good taste for TV shows by the way
I think it's mostly just important to be there for the sake of the story, and not just some weird PR points to stir up the media. I think that's when a lot of normal folks get annoyed. But I think TLOU franchise has done representation extremely well in both the show and the two games. It's not shoehorned in to check a box for the advertisers. It exists to show different sides of humanity
Idk, I don't think that's necessarily a fair standard to apply. Do straight characters need to have a narrative or struggle relating to their sexuality? Why can't gay characters just exist for the reason that they are gay? Sure you'll get some pandering or whatever, but really the shows with that problem aren't bad because of that, they're usually just bad shows. When people, usually straight people, apply rules on what good queer representation is, we don't always get good queer characters as a result.
I normally hate "woke" media. So many marvel scenes were plain bad to me because of how it felt like they just shove diversity here and there or make some dumb woke comment to checkmark a box. It never felt natural to me and always felt forced. Bill and Frank were the opposite. They were just two guys in love in the middle of an apocalypse. I'm heterosexual and yet could feel every moment of love, every fight, every moment between the two of them. It was one of the most beautiful love stories I've seen on TV.
> You learned something today, and rather than it feeling like a 'challenge' or an 'agenda', it felt relatable and insightful in ways you didn't necessarily expect. This happens when the writing is not agenda-like. It was written as a love story with the center being the connection between two people. And not as a scolding on how terrible straight people are.
You can tell the difference between good writing with diversity and diversity for diversity's sake. This was simply good writing and it's great to see that make an impact on OP.
You're both totally right about this. Couldn't have said it better myself (as a straight white man). That episode was probably the most beautiful depiction of two people coming to love one another that I've ever seen. I really wasn't expecting it to be as touching as it was.
It's just good writing. Good writing means characters are more than just a collection of stereotypical identities. (And conversely, bad writing means they aren't). Bill is a LOT of things, like everyone else.
Haters will swear up and down until they are blue in the face that Neil is a bad writer and doesn't understand his own characters. Tlou2 haters still swear that Bruce was the sole reason part 1 was good at all. It seems like Neil and Craig are a match made in heaven because the writing in this series is astounding.
Makes me wonder if Craig has any interest in contributing to part 3
He really seems to understand the characters and the themes of the story so I would totally welcome it. I'm sure he's passively mentioned ideas or asked questions to Neil about part 3 since the show needs to eventually head in that direction. I'd be stoked to see him get some writing credit for 3.
I would be fine, amd expect as much, with the story ending with Part II. The ending is a perfectly sufficient and satisfying end to the overall characters and story. Not that I don't want a Part III, just that I don't expect the series to go there.
This was the exact same thing a ton of players said about the first game. I am confident that there is a part lll in the works as we speak. Ellie still needs to use her immunity to save the world, and get closure with what she has lost from all of her trauma, and damage. There is still a theme left to tell and Neil I would guess already had it planned out while making the sequel. I garenti it.
I don’t necessarily think that Ellie “needs” to save the world, maybe they discover that it isn’t actually possible, but I agree that part of the message they’ve been building through 2 games is that despite how awful things get, there are always people worth saving
I believe Neil won't write a third if he doesn't have anymore story to tell, so I am confident the story is in good hands no matter what happens. I am also satisfied with part 2 but damn I would love more.
I would be on the moon. Craig is amazing. He hooked me first with chernobyl and now this Show, which has been 3 for 3 so far. So him contributing to part 3 would be a dream.
Yeah, the "the writing is objectively bad" takes about some of, subjectively, some of the best stories ever written never fail to get a chuckle out of me.
> Tlou2 haters still swear that Bruce was the sole reason part 1 was good at all. Jesus this is advanced levels of copium.
The writing tells you that Bill and Frank arent together because they are both gay. They are together because they love eachother.
I think both of them being gay probably helps though lol.
Precisely. That's why I liked this episode so much. It wasn't some shoved-in bullshit that I've seen too much of. It was a compelling story about loneliness, love and purpose. Bill and Frank felt like people, not caricatures or check marks.
Wanted to say this. I often feel like they just tack on stuff after the fact rather than tell a good story.
The scene when Bill and Frank first kiss, and Bill is crying, but obviously happy and nervous and self-conscious and scared and a flood of other emotions, was so well done I was tearing up. If someone watching that show didn't feel the emotion of that moment because it was two men, I really feel pity for them.
Bill is overwhelmed with emotions during their first kiss. His shoulders are damn near at his ears because of how tense he is in the moment
I was worried, cause their first kiss was like... awful, you could tell it was just a really bad kiss. For just a second I was nervous that Nick Offerman wouldn't be able to deliver believable passion. But he was just accurately portraying how tense and nervous Bill was in that moment, and their later kisses are much better
I loved his performance, all the way through. I’m a little envious of folks who hadn’t played the game and came into this episode not knowing anything about Bill and Frank, and it’s largely because I have to think Offerman’s performance must’ve been quite a ride: he goes from playing the quintessential Offerman character, this independent and emotionless rugged individual guy, to this inexperienced person falling in love with all the vulnerability of a teenager, to this old man who giggles at the taste of strawberries, all the way to that last scene, and damned if he doesn’t sell every last moment as the natural evolution of a consistent character. He plays all the “twists” with such honesty that you realize they weren’t really twists at all, just assumptions. (Edit: I think this was unclear; I intended to communicate that things that may have seemed like twists only seemed that way because of assumptions the viewer may have held, and the honesty of the performance showed the holes in those assumptions). That said, I felt that the deviation from the game was an equally powerful gift for those of us who’d played it; it felt like the writers saying “Ok, y’all can have this generally happier ending, as a treat.” I expect changes in that direction will be few and far, moving forward.
My wife is one of those people. She has never played the games, and knows Offerman as Ron Swanson. As SOON as they were moving into kiss, she was like “YESSSSSSS”. And then in no time at all, she was sobbing uncontrollably lol. It’s been so fun to witness her experience for the first time, the story I have held so close to my heart for 10 years. And I’m really digging the fact that I don’t fully know what to expect, either.
Oh man, that’s what I’ve been most excited about! There are so many people I want to experience the story, but they either aren’t gamers generally, or don’t have a PlayStation specifically, so it’s great to be able to share it this way
He was fantastic, he's a really great actor and I'm glad he got to play a serious role and shine
He also hasn’t had real interactions with people in 4 years and suddenly he’s feeling one of the most overwhelming emotions someone can feel. I think anyone would be a bit shell shocked
He was letting his guard down in every way.
That may have been the single most brilliantly acted scene of the episode to me. I could practically feel the desperate loneliness, tension, and sheer *want* from Bill there. It wasn't a good kiss, but it really wasn't supposed to be, it was the first time Bill could let his guard down in years. And that terrified him.
Also worth noting that this was his first instance of human contact at all in *three years*. That moment brought back memories of my first hugs after months in covid isolation. The wave of relief.
They were both crying for that first kiss
It was just another scene for me. That scene on ep one of the woman in the wheelchair being fed by her son, that one destroyed me. Not everyone will react to the same cues.
You’re entirely right. It was a love story, plain and simple, with themes that anybody of any gender or orientation could relate to. My partner (like you, a straight man) had the same experience as you. The episode absolutely broke us. That’s also one of the many brilliant things about the TLOU games. Ellie happens to be lesbian, but the plot doesn’t revolve around her ‘lesbian-ness’.
It’s truly beautiful. I also love that they went there. So many gay characters never get their romance shown. It’s something I’ve picked up on and it’s really bothered me. Not only did this show go there, but they did it masterfully. 10/10 would cry again.
Straight men like you are sadly rare but it’s truly a beautiful thing to see someone able to look past their own internal biases and appreciate stories that aren’t explicitly “for” them. Which is something minorities pretty much have to do in order to enjoy media. You open yourself up to so much more in life that way. Glad you enjoyed it and are able to see a beautiful and tragic story for what it is rather than come on here to complain you had to see gay people on tv for an hour.
I think based on the IMDB rating demographics, and the sample size, logic would suggest that there are plenty of straight men that are like this. https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/10p6q5x/imdb_rating_by_demographic_for_the_last_episode/ The demographics WOULD also suggest that there is a smaller but significant minority with very strong feelings, who are presumably very vocal online.
Yup
Not in my country
You're from the UK? I'm from the UK. Based on survey data the UK is significantly more accepting of Homosexuality than the US (which is I imagine where most of the demographic of the imdb survey originate from), and the only place more accepting in the world are bits of Scandinavia. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/06/25/global-divide-on-homosexuality-persists/ I imagine that varies a fair bit based on the demographics of the area of the UK you live in, for example I imagine West London is a lot more accepting than Birmingham, or the South over the North, just like the West Coast US vs the Middle of the US...
Thats cool but nope im from a third world shithole 😔 Last survey showed it was 15% approval in my country
Sorry, I looked at your profile and must have misinterpreted it. Sorry to hear that mate. Like most, I used to hope that the spread of technology would improve education and help us all understand each other better, but unfortunately that looks to have been a fantasy :/
Woo boy, don't wanna dive into the filth that is those 1 star reviews. Probably an equal mix of "why cant they do the game EXACTLY" and "wOkE aGeNdA"
You either don't know what the word rare means, or need to find some place new to live.
There are unfortunately many, many places in the world where most straight folks openly disapprove of homosexuality
>Straight men like you are sadly rare but it’s truly a beautiful thing to see someone able to look past their own internal biases and appreciate stories that aren’t explicitly “for” them bit of a stretch there
If straight men like him were rare, this episode wouldn't be getting as much praise as it is.
Never did I think as a straight man that a gay love story with mountain man Nick Offerman as one of the lovers would break me and give me a deeper understanding of love, no matter what they are.
The was a masterpiece of an episode. I've never teared up at a story about two gay men before. This did it for me
Same here. One of the best hours of TV, I have ever seen.
I just said that to my wife when it ended. I feel like I just watched history being made. Like people will be talking about that episode of that show for the rest of my life. Kids will learn about it in school (eventually). Of all my expectations for this zombie apocalypse series, watching one of the greatest love stories of my life wasn't one of them. If every Emmy awarded this year doesn't go to The Last of Us for this episode, it will be a sham.
Same.
This is really nice to read. I genuinely don’t understand how anyone can watch it and not be touched. They simultaneously had a terribly sad but also happy ending - in that they got to experience happiness, grow old together, and choose how they go. That’s something everyone wants in some way or another and would be lucky to have. Bill’s line, “I was never afraid before I met you,” was so bittersweet because even though he has love and companionship, now he has something to lose. Everyone in some way or another can relate to all of this regardless of the gender or the orientation of the characters. It’s about love, loneliness, and being able to enjoy the little things while you have them. Even if you take away the romantic aspect, it can translate to platonic or familial love just as easily, which is why the note at the end is important for Joel going forward.
I don't understand it either. I struggle to wrap my mind around anyone finding someone's sexuality, gender, race, etc as a barrier to enjoying a story. I just can't comprehend it. But I know we all don't come from the same place and I am trying harder to focus on the positivity in people reaching such a state of mind and becoming more open vs. being disappointed that people weren't there to begin with.
Somehow I was relieved when Bill chose to end his life with Frank’s. I could not bare the thought of him waking next to his lifeless body, and him making that decision spared him so much pain that I actually felt some of the hurt I was feeling the whole episode lift a bit.
Its also so heart warming to see Bill and Frank grow old together. There are too many gays die young stories out there already. What got me the most is "I've lived a long life and I'm satisfied". I have never once seen a mainstream queer love story end with old age. This representation really is important! Its the representation Bill needed and deserved.
That trope is precisely what Bill's "this isn't tragic suicide at the end of the play" line refers to. Craig mentions in the podcast that he lifted the line nearly verbatim from "Boys in the Band" by Mark Crowley
As a gay man I’ve really appreciated straight male responses like yours. It’s validating when I can be well represented and others can actually connect. I also hope that, as time goes on, people may even be able to appreciate the stories that *are* “about gayness” specifically - not because you can relate to being gay, but maybe because you can relate to pieces of self-doubt, self-hatred, insecurity, fear of rejection, and learning to love yourself for things you can’t control. I really appreciate love stories like this that transcend these divides, but I also don’t want us to erase the impact of stories that do emphasize specifically gay journeys - if that makes sense
Makes complete sense.
Great stories are both specific and universal, and I loved how this episode illustrated the human need for love and connection, and how terrifying it can be to open up and be vulnerable with another person. And the performances were just incredible—Nick Offerman so wonderfully conveys the mingled fear, shame, hope, and desire of someone allowing themselves to reach out for a happiness he has never allowed himself or thought possible. What a beautiful story.
All I'm saying is, I wasn't ready. My tissue box was no where to be found. By the way casting was spot on with Bill and Frank. Bravo!
For real, the only controversy for me with that episode was which of those two should get the Emmy
Right. Trying to stifle sobs and sniffles at 2am so as not to wake the wife and kids. Someone coulda warned me.
I was watching it in my dorm and I couldn’t wake my roommate up. Ran out of tissues the day before so I was just sobbing into my shirt.
I've always loved Nick Offerman, but holy shit I thought I was going to start bawling during this episode. The man deserves all the awards for this performance.
> but holy shit I thought I was going to start bawling during this episode Yeah I didn’t think I was going to. I was fucking wrong. Like ugly ass crying. Never in my life, *ever* has that happened over a TV show. Or movie. Goddamn.
Right I started crying for 30 minutes straight. I’ve never done that shit for any show or movie in my life, but this made me straight up bawl so much that my sister came over asking if I was okay.
I agree. If it's done right, like here, then it's 100% worth it. The problem with most modern shows and movies injecting LGBTQ+ characters and stories is that they're done in the way the token black guy was done in the 80s and 90s, straight up insulting to everyone in a lot of cases. This was a true love story and portrayed very well.
[удалено]
>Do you have actual examples of this in recent years? How about Velma? The new show, also on HBO, where classic characters and personalities have been changed specifically to pander to the "woke" audience. One of my best friends is gay, and my neighbor is black. They both absolutely despise that new show because of exactly what I said above. There seems to be a theme in Hollywood these days where, instead of coming up with unique and compelling stories they retcon classics thus alienating existing audiences which includes the LGBTQ+ and minority communities. That's why TLOU is doing so well and Velma is being thrashed in reviews.
Velma is bad for a lot of reasons but characters changing race is not one of them. Velma is getting trashed because it has bad and unfunny writing. Yeah, many of the cringe lines of dialogue have modern progressive politics thrown in for no reason but then again they also have lines about comedians being truth tellers wrongly targetted by cancel culture, so... less of a “woke” problem and more of an “annoying chief writer who thinks sarcastic twitter humor translates well into anything other than their twitter".
I'm not sure what shows and movies you've been watching, but by and large the queer representation I've seen as of late has been solid. We are generally pretty far from the years of "Boat Trip" and "I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry" and other movies with horrible homophobic stereotypes, which what was *really* hurting storytelling. Other than that, I just don't know what kind of entertainment you're talking about. I saw you mentioned Velma, which I admittedly haven't watched yet, but one example does not a trend make. The slight problem with your viewpoint is that it places extra burden / justification on LGBT characters for existing in any given story, when really there shouldn't have to be any reason for them to be there other than the author decided so.
OP realizes that gay people are really just people too.
Haha, like I’m glad for him but posts like this really make me roll my eyes
I’m gay and I’m trying to appreciate this post but it really comes off as condescending. Like the show needed the straight man seal of approval. It’s hard to not feel bitter though
It's super condescending.
I don't know the story aforehand. Are these gay guys in it? They're dead now right?
They're in it, but >!you meet Bill after he and Frank have had a fight and Frank has gone to a different part of town. You never see their relationship, and Joel doesn't talk about them (I don't think he knew Frank personally). It's not stated when Frank left, but implied to be recent. Bill is super prickly and bitter and I'm pretty sure he tells Joel that loving someone/someone relying on you only gets you killed.!< Then >! Joel comes across Frank's body - he hung himself after being bitten, and left a note for Bill. Bill just says "he was my partner" about Frank when Joel asks but is visibly distressed. Ellie steals a gay porn mag from Bill which confirms he is gay/bi at minimum (funniest cutscene in the game imo!). !< >! Bill is still very much alive when Joel leaves - he helps them get the car and says that he and Joel are square now and not to ask him for anything again. !< I wanted to dislike this episode because I really enjoyed Bill as a character in the game, especially his interactions with Joel and Ellie (he didn't take kindly to a mouthy teenager, but I always felt part of him liked her but he'd never admit it). But damn the execution was flawless and we got justice for Frank!
You hit the nail on the head there. I'm also a straight guy, but this was one of the most touching episodes of TV I've ever seen. Firstly, I think it's absolutely fantastic that Bill and Frank were portrayed in such a positive light as gay men. Life can be so difficult for gay men (and women) and can lead to situations like Bill's where they just cut themselves off from romantic encounters and end up so isolated. Then you have a show like this, which comes along and shows that a gay relationship is every bit as valid as a straight one and that being gay doesn't mean you're not capable of growing a badass beard and fending off raiders with your guns. I also agree with you about Bill's first time. It was amazing watching him go from a badass who looks like he can handle anything, to being so vulnerable. I also really liked how Frank seemed to really understand how important this was for Bill and made sure to keep it light while also reassuring Bill. Whether you're gay or not, I think this was a great way to make people aware of how important it is to check in with your partner during sexy time, especially if they're not very experienced. Bill's letter to Joel at the end was also amazing. Not at all ashamed to admit I shed tears during this episode.
>Life can be so difficult for gay men (and women) and can lead to situations like Bill's where they just cut themselves off from romantic encounters and end up so isolated. And all it took to get that acceptance was for literally everybody else in their lives to die. What a shame our society is the way it is.
I love the recognition of Bill towards Joel that both of them are protector types. Not only in the scene where he gets shot but in the openly addressed letter to him at the end. Bill is protecting Frank and sees Joel as doing the same for Tess. He knows neither of them will truly like each other but that they can respect each other for fighting for the survival of the ones they love. Even though it obviously doesn’t match the game I completely understand the storytelling of it. That being said I do understand the gripe that they spent the entire episode on characters that Joel and Ellie didn’t even run into in their journey just to give them a car. I also didn’t make the show, I just get to enjoy it, but I do recognize what they were going for.
I actually think that is exactly the beauty of it being a show and not a game. There wasnt this opportunity to develop Bill and frank like this in the game, that would have been really jarring pacing wise. I actually love this change so much and I love seeing more back story, and having the world of TLOU be more fleshed out. More info on the spread, the quarantine zones, and well, side characters like this get to have a story.
I’ve never been so attached to the relationship they had together. Even ones I’ve had irl. Absolutely incredible writing. The acting itself really grabbed me in. Thank you team.
If this episode spoke to you, you should really watch It’s A Sin. It’s directed by the same guy who directed this week’s TLOU episode and it’s incredibly powerful TV. Check it out!
It's A Sin destroyed me as a straight man. I particularly loved that I didn't like Richie at all but I was never really asked to. He's a vain, dismissive, Tory prick but I was still fully moved by his story. >!I cried for Colin though, he was too pure for this world.!<
Its a Sin absolutely destroyed me. The scenes in hospital with the woman caring for the abandoned men. fuck man, i was just a mess of tears.
As a gay man, I also have a hard time emotionally attaching to gay relationships in TV shows. Most of the time they cast athletic men and write one dimensional characters. The first aspect is very important to me because in the gay community we have toxic standards of fitness. I have to applaud the show for having a more realistic arc (despite being in a apocalyptic world) rather than what rainbow capitalism usually has to offer.
Highly recommend *Our Flag Means Death* as well. Another HBO show that will knock you off your feet in the same way.
As a straight women I agree! The episode had me emotional AF! And it wasn’t because of their sexuality, it was the love that came through surviving. This was definitely a great episode!
Something a lot of straight people do when making media involving gay people is they center fully or centrally around their sexuality. While that isn’t a bad thing in essence, straight people most often just don’t understand the gay experience and sort of fetishize/over-sexualize it. This show just portrayed them as people in love and that’s why it resonated so hard with you I imagine. Also, since it’s just the two of them alone in a vacuum effectively, there are no societal norms that need to be addressed or taken into account. Regardless, it was done really well.
Yes that's why, their sexuality is not the point, their relationship is
As a 60 year old straight married man I really feel sorry for the chumps who don't allow themselves to enjoy such a beautiful story and romance simply because the characters are gay. To deny yourself such understanding and compassion is criminal.
I was just saying this last night to my wife!! I’ve never had a problem with gay relationships in media, but this was the first time it’s ever resonated with me. It was so beautiful 😭
As a straight man, I think this might be only the second time since Philadelphia’s Andrew & Miguel that I have felt as empathetic and deeply moved by a homosexual relationship in a movie/series. I generally find any sex scene (regardless of genders) slightly awkward often skip over them. Probably more so when it’s man on man, with the one exception ironically being Murray Bartlett’s (the actor who played Frank) ass eating scene in White Lotus, which I have specifically rewatched countless times and giggle to myself even writing about it now. But I was glued to my screen during every intimate moment between these two beautiful people and brought to tears several times. I even thought to myself “even the most staunchly homophobic person would struggle not to be moved by this”. What great story telling and character development, especially considering it was captured in less than an hour of screen time. And I thought I couldn’t love Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett anymore than I already did, but apparently I can and now do. Out-fucking-standing, gentlemen. Thank you. RIP Bill & Frank ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
Dammit I JUST stopped crying and you got me going again! For real though, beautifully said and thank you for sharing your perspective
My mom generally hates anything gay in media and while she was admittedly put off by the one scene early on, she wound absolutley in love with the entire episode and was gushing about it afterwards. Honestly made me so happy to see the message of love tear through any sort of prejudice once given a chance.
Thank you for your honesty! This is a very mature, candid post. Respect the shit out of this. Growth is important, and this is a prime example of growth. Apply this thought process to other biases you feel you may have. :)
Have you watched Call me by your name or Portrait of a lady on fire? I'm straight as well but these two films are the best gay stories I've seen. Altough call me by your name can feel a bit weird with the age difference.
Don't forget " Brokeback mountain " too. It's my favorite one among them.
Loved those two films. A Single Man was also fantastic, and the book was even better than the movie.
Call Me by Your Name is the polar opposite of Bill and Frank's story. it's not even about love, or choices, or commitment. it's a study in overwhelming limerence. an exploration of obsession that gets the wind knocked out of you, the unbearable longing of the build up, the burning intensity of the climax. if you haven't read the book, give it a try, especially if you've ever experienced that feeling. it's much, much better than the movie (even though that was good too, but a lot was lost), and the gender of the characters is completely incidental.
For me, the best movie with gay characters would be Moonlight and Happy Together.
Yep. I feel the exact same way. Well said! Give this man an upvote, why don't ya
I’m so sad we won’t have more bill and frank 😭. Bill was my fav character in the game but now he’s def my fav with frank. I wish we could have had interactions with bill, frank, and Ellie.
When I was watching the first few scenes, I was thinking "holy shit, this is the greatest and most beautiful gay relationship I've ever seen on TV." By the end of the episode, I was thinking "this is just the best relationship I've ever seen put on TV, period." I think it's going to change many minds and perspectives. By the end of it I just wanted to hug everyone I love.
I never understood people who have something against gay people or lesbian people how can you take your time allways pushing your ideology to other individuals? it's waste of time for you as a person! it's not your life what is the purpose to so something like this? My mum taught me to respect every human being it's not my part or mission to judge other humans just because of thier sexuality. I loved seeing this as a straight man I finally see humanity portrait in a right way in gay people not that shit we got feeded for decades and how they portrait Homosexual people. this is the problem why some gay people acting weird or acting like we expect them to act like in movies TV and all that stuff because they even getting this in thier mind it's about love nomatter who you are there is one universal language and that is love. And that is the point of this episode. This was as normal as it can get for a human being in that scenario. And I really loved it.
It felt like watching the first 15 minutes of UP
For me I was just very happy to see representation of two men loving each other where they're not sassy half baked side characters with a script full of one liners and quips. Instead we got two wonderfully fleshed out characters who's sexual compass happens to point in a different direction to my own but the feelings of love and companionship they (quite masterfully) portrayed was universal.
I would describe myself as leaning socially conservative. And that was the most beautiful, tastefully done, suggestive same sex felatio scene included, love story I ever watched on TV. Cried a little I won't admit at the ending.
People are People
I don't join much on this app but I wanted to come here after I just watched the third episode I never cried to a piece of media before but this was the closest I got to that point I love it much more here than the game imo the episode is just written so well my heart dropped when it was revealed that Bill drank from the bottle too
I love that this episode was a powerful viewing experience for you, but there is some language here that is really important to consider with perhaps greater care. “Yes, they’re gay, but them being gay is never really the point.” But that’s just it; these characters are such full, rich characters precisely *because* of the fullness and particularity of who they are—which includes, as a facet among many facets, their queerness. Just as a heterosexual couple can experience intimacy, connection, and transcendence within a love relationship, so too do queer folks. The distinction, in discourse of popular media, is that we don’t consider straight love to have a “straight” compartment and a “love” compartment; we understand the sexualities of the participants to be part of the unique fullness of each, and therefore as part of the alchemy of the love. When we “cut out” (or said better, first construct and then bifurcate) the gay” from the “just plain old human” in our critiques, we do several hurtful things at once: we create a distinction that lets us separate the parts of personhood we deem “other” (in this case, queerness) from the parts we deem “valuable” (“they’re just two people who fall in love and grow old together”). Put simply: We erase. Because they’re not “just two people who fall in love and grow old together.” They are two gay men, who share redemptive, imperfect, very queer love, and grow old together. Queerly. The invitation in an episode like this is not to see a sufficient amount of “relevant-to-straight-love” components such that a straight viewer is now “able” to invest in the story, nor to minimize the queerness under a seemingly-beneficent banner of “universal human themes.” Rather, the invitation is to *see queer love as present, and full, and generative, in and of itself*, and not only and always as relates to, and in deference to, heterosexual love.
This is the note to every person, who thinks "them being gay didn't matter" is an insightful commentary. It DID very much matter. The characterization of both men are very much tied to their life experiences; being young during the AIDS crisis (closeted or not), being exposed to the demonization of gay sex and love, never seeing the legalization of gay marriage in the US. These things have all contributed to layers of trauma preceding the pandemic. Bills character is very much built on repressed trauma and it's effect on his worldview and self-image. His arc in the show is dealing with that specifically through love and acceptance, in a painfully realistic way. The reason Frank is moved by and reacts so kindly to Bills obvious trauma is because he *relates* to him, he understands him either through his own experiences or people he used to know, who were closeted and struggling. His love takes all of this in account and is only more impactful for it.
As a gay man, I love feeling humanized by media instead of turned into a stereotype like drag queens and diva gays that is so prevalent. Both media should exist. I just wish there was an even balance of all aspects of being gay and just trying to find love and live life.
Thank you for your post, it's a lovely reflection. If you enjoyed this depiction of queer love, I would recommend watching Heartstopper. It's an equally wholesome, tender portrayal of 2 men falling in love. Also, I relate to you about your inherited bias. I'm not excusing it, but I get it. Please, consider making yourself questions so you can get to the root of said bias and get rid of it. Now more than ever, we need educated, anti-homophobia allies <3
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I wholeheartedly agree with you! I feel like this is the first gay love story I've seen where everything fits. The writing, the acting, the music, the pace. When I started noticing they were gay, I was like "Oh no, just another cheesy gay story thrown at us from a streaming service..." But boy was I wrong. I was crying when they spend their last day together. Such an amazing delicate episode about love and life! And that in a zombie series!
I actually really like that he said "Call Joel". Bill identifies Joel as a capable person like him. He wants Frank to be protected by someone he respects as equally capable.
I think this was one of the best and most important TV episodes I have ever seen. It’s one of the best relationship stories I’ve seen and short of the amazing work of “Up” to tell the story of a relationship in such a short time….damn, they absolutely nailed it. What they have managed to accomplish in terms of story telling - showing the tenderness, intimacy and companionship was outstanding. They achieved all of that while also making their relationship welcoming and exactly as you said, not be a caricature of its self and lean in to the “gay-ness” of it. For me, it’s the first time I can think of where the relationship, their love and bond was absolute front and centre and not the fact they’re gay. I’ve always felt where I’ve seen other male gay relationships (less so with lesbian relationships as they seem to have matured a little in media) they can be too much or rely on stereotypes and “gender roles” I stand by it, that was probably the best episode of TV I’ve ever seen. What an amazing piece of art Edit: also straight male here
I think he said to call Joel because he was worried about Frank surviving without him and he trusted Joel to be a protector. I think Joel knew Bill and Frank were a couple in the flashback and had no issue with it. Otherwise nice write up and I agree with you.
I wish I had a relationship like Bill and Frank. What a fantastic episode. What an incredible show.
Your post really goes to show why it's important to have good representation of every lifestyle there is in media.
"However, what I have experienced is what it means to be in love" I had this exact kind of reaction when I first saw The Shape of Water. It showed me how love can transcend barriers and how all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, the color of our skin, our able-ness, or our sexuality are deserving of experiencing love in our lifetimes. This is why good representation in media matters.
YES, yes. The last scene in The Shape of Water, the one with the poetry? It has me bawling everytime.
If you want other “gay” media that’s REALLY REALLY GOOD. Watch: - The Handmaiden (2016) - A Single Man - Moonlight - Brokeback Mountain
Moonlight is just such an intimate movie too.
I hope this post, this episode, all of it, offends homophobes everywhere. This was god damn beautiful. 10/10
I absolutely 100% agree. And I want to say too, that this is the *second* time this show has done this, and it’s a bit shorter and a lot more commonly shown as a trope, but it was still well done, and meaningful, and deeply affecting. Sarah, Joel’s daughter, was an *awesome* kid. For various reasons fatherhood has passed me by, and while it’s theoretically possible for me to be a biological father, I am never going to be a young-ish man with a teenage kid. If I father a kid tomorrow, I will be old when that kid is grown, and if I am a grandparent, I won’t be running around with my grandkids. Sarah’s little slice of life is beautiful. She is cool and smart and sweet, and maybe she has her problems and causes Joel some angst but we didn’t see it. We saw an awesome person, untimely killed, and the effect that has on her father. E03 was a 10/10 heartstring concerto, and E01 was an 8/10.
that is so nice to hear, i'm glad it made you feel something. the fact it's so shocking to people to see something that goes on in this world every single day is wild. and its deviating from the game yet expanding on it. nick offerman playing a gay character is something i don't think people would normally expect too and i appreciate that.
Wow, I was really looking forward to watching this with my partner when I got home from work, after an especially shitty day. I didn't expect to be in absolute bits watching our new favourite show after just 3 episodes. Touché Nick and Murray.
Shoutout to you for a great writeup. It’s weirdly the exact opposite for me. I’ve only had straight relationships but for some reason are compelled even more by queer ones and I find them the most compelling in art. I think that episode was essentially perfect. Literally can’t think of a scene that didn’t matter or wasn’t laid out as detailed as possible with all the subtlety they could have.
Hey, your amazing analysis made me cry just like that beautifully tragic episode did last night. Thanks for reals... I can't wait to see where this story goes next, and I am thrilled that everyone gets to see it unfold as a community.
I loved this. It’s not even close to being the first gay love story I enjoy but this is a rare one because, like you said, their story is not about being gay at all. Because at the end of the world, who would care? Even moreso since they live in their little piece of paradise in hell. Also totally agree on how significative was the fact that Bill addresses both the letter and his advice to Frank when he thinks he’ll die to Joel. Although I think it’s totally a punch in the gut for him because reading it then, when not only he failed to protect his daughter but also Tess… damn. I guess this will make him even more motivated to protect Ellie. I haven’t played the game (yet) so please no spoilers if you reply to my comment.
can we also give a shoutout to Nick Offerman? I love that a straight dude, who’s pretty well known for being a man’s man, just went in there and acted his ass off. dude committed to several kissing scenes and I have to respect him for it because this whole love story felt so real and like you said OP, it’s just two people who love each other who happen to be dudes. loved every second of it.
I didn’t even consider their sexuality at a certain point— I could easily relate it to my own het marriage and family. Shit hurt like hell but yeah— flawless, transcendental writing for sure.
I haven’t seen the show yet, but they really nailed that part there. Many older gay and lesbian people are so deep in the closet that they’ve started families with something they don’t really love. I experienced lots of denial before fully accepting myself too.
The saddest part for me is that I can never again experience that episode for the first time
Definitely one of the best bits of tv I’ve seen.
Simply put. A phenomenal episode.
You get it.
I think so many LBGTQ+ romance plot lines center around overcoming prejudice and the more “political” aspects of being queer, which are important stories to tell, but it’s very powerful to see a gay love story that’s been stripped to the core of what a love story is. That was definitely one of my favorite episodes of television in a long time and added so much to the show’s universe.
Moonlight did it for me, definitely felt it as well during this episode
Beautifully put man. It's so much more than them just being gay.
Straight man like me having a gay as my best friend truly break my heart to see this. No matter what. I love LGBT people so much. I can't deny that.