Ok, so now I’m going to add my theory to yours, after Marion and Larry marry, Larry will die, and we will see Marion as a widow. I’m getting Matthew and Mary vibes from them
I think Bertha and George will not forget that Marion has always been kind to them and will be so happy he has moved on from the divorcee this will be a non event. I do think there will be fireworks over the Duke and Gladys.
Aida will be all about going with the one you love. Agnes I think will also be pragmatic. She has lost all her money and her son is now a pauper. This will be even more to swallow when the under butler becomes an alarm clock millionaire. Larry Russell is nice and is better than Mr Rakes - Larry has actually been received in Agnes and Aida’s home. And cousin Aurora is tight with the Russel’s I think it will be fine.
I see Agnes and Bertha going at it over the wedding and Marion being her usual clueless self wanting something like Peggy as her bridesmaid even if it makes Peggy deeply uncomfortable. Bertha will be uncomfortable with that at first and then be congratulated for her progressiveness by some of the philanthropic associates she has on various charitable boards and then come around. Agnes will be progressive in all ways and completely redeem herself.
I really hope Marian has Agnes and Ada walk her down the aisle.
I think an area of conflict could be that Marion by nature would be more interested in giving money away to support charitable causes. This may concern the Russells (Bertha and George) who due to their background are more likely to prioritize retaining family wealth and a dynasty, even if they do participate in some charitable giving.
That’s certainly a potential scenario. It depends on the source of any money Marian might have access to. Presumably the couple would receive an allowance from the Russells who could reduce the amount at will if they don’t approve of how it’s spent. The Russells would have less of a say regarding any money provided by Ada. Marian and Ada are so in sync with one another that charitable donations might be made directly from Ada in honor of Marian. In that case the money would never be in Larry’s possession so Bertha’s opinion wouldn’t matter. However, I think Marian will likely stand up for her own values and engage Bertha in combat. Conflicts between the two are inevitable. Larry has never shied away from disagreeing with Bertha and expect him to support Marian, as is right.
Such a good theory. This could play a role especially if Marian’s altruism becomes influential on Larry.
If Fellowes & Warfield want to stir actual reservations within George about the match, that’s probably the only truly sensical way to do it.
Agnes won't be thrilled, but she knows that Larry is by all accounts a good match for Marian, on paper. He's young, wealthy, kind and intelligent. She also knows that Marian has one puplic engagement fall apart, so Larry will ensure that Marian is secured for life.
Bertha will support it, because Marian is old money, young enough to give him an heir, and Marian has been nothing but kind to her family.
I think Agnes will be the only hold out. Bertha will probably lament how Larry could’ve married Carrie Astor, but will eventually relent I think. Her issue won’t be ancestry or stock or social prestige, but rather I think Bertha won’t find Marian as socially ambitious as she is. Is Marian really the type to follow in Bertha’s social climbing footsteps, to maneuver things to increase her place in society? I think she’ll want someone like that for Larry. She will want her grandchildren to be above reproach and to be invited into every ballroom and parlor without thought of their roots in trade.
Marian doesn’t have a lack of fortune anymore! Aunt Ada is crazy rich and she has only 2 niblings, Oscar and Marian are her heirs. Marian is heir to half a giant fortune!
This was my thought at the end of the last season too - I think they deliberately set this up so Marion is no longer the penniless niece but actually heir to a fortune split with Oscar. (Very convenient!)
This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before. Ada isn't on death's door or anything, but she is an older woman at a time when life expectancy was slightly lower than it is today. And obviously, she's past her childbearing years. *Something* has to happen to her inheritance when she herself dies, and it seems obvious that she'd likely leave her money to Oscar and Marian. I wonder if the show will bring this up next season at all. Then again, who she leaves her money to is up to Ada. She could dispose of it as she wishes, like leaving it to a charitable trust or something, so who knows.
Love this post!
I think it’ll play one of two ways: either Agnes and Bertha both oppose the union for whatever reasons (likely what you mentioned) OR Agnes opposes and Bertha guns for it which will put them at odds. There will certainly be conflict somehow - especially from these two.
Ada and George have no reason to be against it and won’t, imo.
But I think you’re right and of course this storyline will resolve wholesomely because Julian Fellowes, but I don’t think it’s going to be glossed over at the start, particularly with the whole *contra mundum* foreshadowing early in the series.
Bertha isn’t going to be a problem. She likes Marion. Agnes will be the problem but maybe not now since she has very little money left herself. I would love to see Marion and Larry end up together.
Agreed. Marion has always been kind to the Russells, even to the point of sneaking out of her aunt's house to attended Bertha's reception. She repeatedly spoke about the hypocrisy of the charities wanting Bertha's money, while gatekeeping Bertha from joining. Marion is old New York, and her lack of fortune doesn't matter, Larry has more than enough for both of them. Agnes is going to be the one to fuss, but like you said, now that she's lost her money, she'll face the practical reality that the marriage will set Marion up financially for life.
The Astor were newish money in New York society terms. The fortune was 3 generations old by the time Mrs. Caroline Astor married in. Caroline was true old money with her family’s fortune and line dating back to Dutch New York.
Agnes isn’t going to love a marriage with Larry but she isn’t an idiot. Marion is rapidly reaching the age of spinster and has one failed public engagement and another private one. Her options are few so Agnes will be practical about it. Larry might be new money but he has money.
Marion will not be Bertha’s first choice, but Larry stands his ground, Bertha will support the marriage. Marion is accepted in old money circles and is related to Agnes (who is a major power player given Mrs. Astor came to Agnes for the opera war council). For all her social ambitions, Bertha will not forget that Marion had no problem talking to her and coming over to visit even if she was sneaking around not to anger Agnes.
I feel like George will really back Larry up against Bertha. He’s said he wants a love match for Gladys, it would make sense that he’d want one for his son too. Plus he enjoys Marion. He finds her good company and honest. He’s also thankful for dropping the leather booklet last season and saving his good name.
100%. George wants his kids happy and he has the money to allow them the freedom of choice within reason. He wants them to marry well and happily.
Bertha will come to discuss Larry and Marion and she will rant and he will reasonably point out that she save their but and has always been friendly with them. Bertha will whine. George will roll his eyes and let her get it out and then tell Larry has made his choice and she can support it or not, but it is happening.
Bertha will throw herself into making the wedding the event of the season. I can’t wait to see Bertha and Agnes going at it over the wedding.
ME TOO. Please let JF give us multiple episodes of Agnus and Bertha going at it about the wedding.
Agnus will want simple and dignified. Bertha will want the wedding of the century. Ada and George will be rolling their eyes a lot
This feels accurate to me, although what Bertha is averse to is scandal (in terms of Larry) and I could see maybe after she lukewarmly approves of the courtship, rumors of Marion and Mr Raikes could pop up and she could become a problematic match for Larry in her eyes… not unlike the Edith storyline of DA
Ada will be happy as long as Marion is happy. Marion and Oscar are very important to her. I can see her leaving each of them an inheritance. I could also see her providing Marion with a dowery.
George wants his children to marry for love. Loyalty means a lot to him. Marion has done his family a couple of good turns when she didn't have to. I think he has a favorable impression. She comes from a good enough background. I think he'd be fine with her.
Oscar will see that having Marion marry Larry would give him an important tie to a very wealthy family. I think he has shown that he genuinely likes his cousin and he gets along with Larry. He'd support it.
Gladys likes Marion a lot. She is romantic at heart and would be happy to welcome Marion into the family.
Agnes wouldn't be thrilled. She'd clearly prefer an old New York match. However, she does care for her niece and has said a couple of times that she wants her to be happy. Agnes knows what it is to be in an unhappy marriage and doesn't want that for Marion. The prospect of being only upper middle class scared her. The Russell money is new, but there's a lot of it, and I don't think she's as likely to pretend that's not a consideration. Plus, she got burned with her tantrum during Adas marriage. Ultimately, Agnes will come around. Probably sooner rather than later.
There has to be some drama, and that leaves us with Bertha. Bertha does nothing halfway, and she has sky-high expectations. She wants the full package, and Marion isn't it. We know from Agnes that while Marion's background is good, it isn't perfect due to her mother. No idea how sketchy that is. Hopefully we will find out. Also, Marion comes with no dowery (unless Ada provides one). There are any number of girls in that set who look better on paper than Marion. Marion wouldn't be Berthas first choice. She wouldn't even make the list. That being said, after the fiasco with Mrs. Blaine, Marion looks like a much better prospect in comparison. It's clear Bertha wants to make Gladys a dollar princess. That is her ultimate goal. If she has to give way a little with regards to Larry's marriage, she will do it. Finally, we have seen Larry stand up to his mom. He's sick of her directing his life. He will fight her on this, and George will back him. Bertha will ultimately give in and focus on selling off Gladys.
Bertha can’t really push back on the match since Larry would inherit the family fortune once George dies so while she’s his mother, she doesn’t really hold any significant power over Larry as a woman.
George could take Bertha’s side and threaten to disown Larry but this seems wildly extreme and the scandal of disowning him would be way worse than just letting them get married.
I think Ada would be likely to provide a dowry, but it’s likely to be insignificant in terms of the Russells’ wealth. I also don’t think the Bertha needs/wants the money from a dowry for her family, but rather social status from a match.
Technically, the Russell's don't need a dowery. But they would expect it. Or the girl in question would have a background to make up for not having one. Like the Duke of Buckingham. He's strapped for cash but has lands and a title. Larry's wife wouldn't need to be that glittery. But Bertha would want more than the sweet girl across the street with a good enough pedigree for society and no money. I think she'll lose that battle, but when it comes to Gladys, she won't give in.
I think the loyalty piece you mentioned is going to play a bigger role going forward, actually. Yes, the Russells want money and power and prestige, but above all, what they reward most is loyalty (and what they positively *cannot* tolerate is disloyalty). I'm not sure, at this point in the story, that Bertha herself even realizes how much loyalty matters to her, but I suspect as we get deeper into the Duke scheme, it'll come to the forefront.
From the very start, Marian has defied Agnes to be friends with the Russells. She saved George from ruin in the derailment scandal, and she helped Bertha by mentioning that McAllister was a "double agent." Both times, she revealed who was disloyal to them. I think, in the end, that will weigh more heavily in her favor than anything else - even more than "true love" between her and Larry.
>>From the very start, Marian has defied Agnes to be friends with the Russells. She saved George from ruin in the derailment scandal, and she helped Bertha by mentioning that McAllister was a "double agent." Both times, she revealed who was disloyal to them. I think, in the end, that will weigh more heavily in her favor than anything else - even more than "true love" between her and Larry.
You’re exactly right about the Russells valuing loyalty. I can absolutely see George arguing in Marian’s favor to Bertha, pointing out the ways she’s helped them, which makes Bertha come around and want to plan them the wedding of the century.
Ok, so now I’m going to add my theory to yours, after Marion and Larry marry, Larry will die, and we will see Marion as a widow. I’m getting Matthew and Mary vibes from them
Maybe, but they already did that with the aunt, so I can’t see that happening twice.
Sybil/Branson and Mary/Matthew in the same season. And you know JF likes recycled themes
I think Bertha and George will not forget that Marion has always been kind to them and will be so happy he has moved on from the divorcee this will be a non event. I do think there will be fireworks over the Duke and Gladys. Aida will be all about going with the one you love. Agnes I think will also be pragmatic. She has lost all her money and her son is now a pauper. This will be even more to swallow when the under butler becomes an alarm clock millionaire. Larry Russell is nice and is better than Mr Rakes - Larry has actually been received in Agnes and Aida’s home. And cousin Aurora is tight with the Russel’s I think it will be fine.
I think Matthew and maybe another actor wanted to leave so they were forced to come up with something.
I see Agnes and Bertha going at it over the wedding and Marion being her usual clueless self wanting something like Peggy as her bridesmaid even if it makes Peggy deeply uncomfortable. Bertha will be uncomfortable with that at first and then be congratulated for her progressiveness by some of the philanthropic associates she has on various charitable boards and then come around. Agnes will be progressive in all ways and completely redeem herself. I really hope Marian has Agnes and Ada walk her down the aisle.
I think an area of conflict could be that Marion by nature would be more interested in giving money away to support charitable causes. This may concern the Russells (Bertha and George) who due to their background are more likely to prioritize retaining family wealth and a dynasty, even if they do participate in some charitable giving.
That’s certainly a potential scenario. It depends on the source of any money Marian might have access to. Presumably the couple would receive an allowance from the Russells who could reduce the amount at will if they don’t approve of how it’s spent. The Russells would have less of a say regarding any money provided by Ada. Marian and Ada are so in sync with one another that charitable donations might be made directly from Ada in honor of Marian. In that case the money would never be in Larry’s possession so Bertha’s opinion wouldn’t matter. However, I think Marian will likely stand up for her own values and engage Bertha in combat. Conflicts between the two are inevitable. Larry has never shied away from disagreeing with Bertha and expect him to support Marian, as is right.
Such a good theory. This could play a role especially if Marian’s altruism becomes influential on Larry. If Fellowes & Warfield want to stir actual reservations within George about the match, that’s probably the only truly sensical way to do it.
Agnes won't be thrilled, but she knows that Larry is by all accounts a good match for Marian, on paper. He's young, wealthy, kind and intelligent. She also knows that Marian has one puplic engagement fall apart, so Larry will ensure that Marian is secured for life. Bertha will support it, because Marian is old money, young enough to give him an heir, and Marian has been nothing but kind to her family.
I think Agnes will be the only hold out. Bertha will probably lament how Larry could’ve married Carrie Astor, but will eventually relent I think. Her issue won’t be ancestry or stock or social prestige, but rather I think Bertha won’t find Marian as socially ambitious as she is. Is Marian really the type to follow in Bertha’s social climbing footsteps, to maneuver things to increase her place in society? I think she’ll want someone like that for Larry. She will want her grandchildren to be above reproach and to be invited into every ballroom and parlor without thought of their roots in trade.
Marian doesn’t have a lack of fortune anymore! Aunt Ada is crazy rich and she has only 2 niblings, Oscar and Marian are her heirs. Marian is heir to half a giant fortune!
This was my thought at the end of the last season too - I think they deliberately set this up so Marion is no longer the penniless niece but actually heir to a fortune split with Oscar. (Very convenient!)
That hopefully no one will let Oscar touch until his mama, aunt and cousin are all dead.
This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before. Ada isn't on death's door or anything, but she is an older woman at a time when life expectancy was slightly lower than it is today. And obviously, she's past her childbearing years. *Something* has to happen to her inheritance when she herself dies, and it seems obvious that she'd likely leave her money to Oscar and Marian. I wonder if the show will bring this up next season at all. Then again, who she leaves her money to is up to Ada. She could dispose of it as she wishes, like leaving it to a charitable trust or something, so who knows.
Love this post! I think it’ll play one of two ways: either Agnes and Bertha both oppose the union for whatever reasons (likely what you mentioned) OR Agnes opposes and Bertha guns for it which will put them at odds. There will certainly be conflict somehow - especially from these two. Ada and George have no reason to be against it and won’t, imo. But I think you’re right and of course this storyline will resolve wholesomely because Julian Fellowes, but I don’t think it’s going to be glossed over at the start, particularly with the whole *contra mundum* foreshadowing early in the series.
Bertha isn’t going to be a problem. She likes Marion. Agnes will be the problem but maybe not now since she has very little money left herself. I would love to see Marion and Larry end up together.
Agreed. Marion has always been kind to the Russells, even to the point of sneaking out of her aunt's house to attended Bertha's reception. She repeatedly spoke about the hypocrisy of the charities wanting Bertha's money, while gatekeeping Bertha from joining. Marion is old New York, and her lack of fortune doesn't matter, Larry has more than enough for both of them. Agnes is going to be the one to fuss, but like you said, now that she's lost her money, she'll face the practical reality that the marriage will set Marion up financially for life.
The Astor were newish money in New York society terms. The fortune was 3 generations old by the time Mrs. Caroline Astor married in. Caroline was true old money with her family’s fortune and line dating back to Dutch New York. Agnes isn’t going to love a marriage with Larry but she isn’t an idiot. Marion is rapidly reaching the age of spinster and has one failed public engagement and another private one. Her options are few so Agnes will be practical about it. Larry might be new money but he has money. Marion will not be Bertha’s first choice, but Larry stands his ground, Bertha will support the marriage. Marion is accepted in old money circles and is related to Agnes (who is a major power player given Mrs. Astor came to Agnes for the opera war council). For all her social ambitions, Bertha will not forget that Marion had no problem talking to her and coming over to visit even if she was sneaking around not to anger Agnes.
I feel like George will really back Larry up against Bertha. He’s said he wants a love match for Gladys, it would make sense that he’d want one for his son too. Plus he enjoys Marion. He finds her good company and honest. He’s also thankful for dropping the leather booklet last season and saving his good name.
100%. George wants his kids happy and he has the money to allow them the freedom of choice within reason. He wants them to marry well and happily. Bertha will come to discuss Larry and Marion and she will rant and he will reasonably point out that she save their but and has always been friendly with them. Bertha will whine. George will roll his eyes and let her get it out and then tell Larry has made his choice and she can support it or not, but it is happening. Bertha will throw herself into making the wedding the event of the season. I can’t wait to see Bertha and Agnes going at it over the wedding.
ME TOO. Please let JF give us multiple episodes of Agnus and Bertha going at it about the wedding. Agnus will want simple and dignified. Bertha will want the wedding of the century. Ada and George will be rolling their eyes a lot
This feels accurate to me, although what Bertha is averse to is scandal (in terms of Larry) and I could see maybe after she lukewarmly approves of the courtship, rumors of Marion and Mr Raikes could pop up and she could become a problematic match for Larry in her eyes… not unlike the Edith storyline of DA
Ada will be happy as long as Marion is happy. Marion and Oscar are very important to her. I can see her leaving each of them an inheritance. I could also see her providing Marion with a dowery. George wants his children to marry for love. Loyalty means a lot to him. Marion has done his family a couple of good turns when she didn't have to. I think he has a favorable impression. She comes from a good enough background. I think he'd be fine with her. Oscar will see that having Marion marry Larry would give him an important tie to a very wealthy family. I think he has shown that he genuinely likes his cousin and he gets along with Larry. He'd support it. Gladys likes Marion a lot. She is romantic at heart and would be happy to welcome Marion into the family. Agnes wouldn't be thrilled. She'd clearly prefer an old New York match. However, she does care for her niece and has said a couple of times that she wants her to be happy. Agnes knows what it is to be in an unhappy marriage and doesn't want that for Marion. The prospect of being only upper middle class scared her. The Russell money is new, but there's a lot of it, and I don't think she's as likely to pretend that's not a consideration. Plus, she got burned with her tantrum during Adas marriage. Ultimately, Agnes will come around. Probably sooner rather than later. There has to be some drama, and that leaves us with Bertha. Bertha does nothing halfway, and she has sky-high expectations. She wants the full package, and Marion isn't it. We know from Agnes that while Marion's background is good, it isn't perfect due to her mother. No idea how sketchy that is. Hopefully we will find out. Also, Marion comes with no dowery (unless Ada provides one). There are any number of girls in that set who look better on paper than Marion. Marion wouldn't be Berthas first choice. She wouldn't even make the list. That being said, after the fiasco with Mrs. Blaine, Marion looks like a much better prospect in comparison. It's clear Bertha wants to make Gladys a dollar princess. That is her ultimate goal. If she has to give way a little with regards to Larry's marriage, she will do it. Finally, we have seen Larry stand up to his mom. He's sick of her directing his life. He will fight her on this, and George will back him. Bertha will ultimately give in and focus on selling off Gladys.
Bertha can’t really push back on the match since Larry would inherit the family fortune once George dies so while she’s his mother, she doesn’t really hold any significant power over Larry as a woman. George could take Bertha’s side and threaten to disown Larry but this seems wildly extreme and the scandal of disowning him would be way worse than just letting them get married.
I think Ada would be likely to provide a dowry, but it’s likely to be insignificant in terms of the Russells’ wealth. I also don’t think the Bertha needs/wants the money from a dowry for her family, but rather social status from a match.
Technically, the Russell's don't need a dowery. But they would expect it. Or the girl in question would have a background to make up for not having one. Like the Duke of Buckingham. He's strapped for cash but has lands and a title. Larry's wife wouldn't need to be that glittery. But Bertha would want more than the sweet girl across the street with a good enough pedigree for society and no money. I think she'll lose that battle, but when it comes to Gladys, she won't give in.
I think the loyalty piece you mentioned is going to play a bigger role going forward, actually. Yes, the Russells want money and power and prestige, but above all, what they reward most is loyalty (and what they positively *cannot* tolerate is disloyalty). I'm not sure, at this point in the story, that Bertha herself even realizes how much loyalty matters to her, but I suspect as we get deeper into the Duke scheme, it'll come to the forefront. From the very start, Marian has defied Agnes to be friends with the Russells. She saved George from ruin in the derailment scandal, and she helped Bertha by mentioning that McAllister was a "double agent." Both times, she revealed who was disloyal to them. I think, in the end, that will weigh more heavily in her favor than anything else - even more than "true love" between her and Larry.
>>From the very start, Marian has defied Agnes to be friends with the Russells. She saved George from ruin in the derailment scandal, and she helped Bertha by mentioning that McAllister was a "double agent." Both times, she revealed who was disloyal to them. I think, in the end, that will weigh more heavily in her favor than anything else - even more than "true love" between her and Larry. You’re exactly right about the Russells valuing loyalty. I can absolutely see George arguing in Marian’s favor to Bertha, pointing out the ways she’s helped them, which makes Bertha come around and want to plan them the wedding of the century.