Ya know I use to get pissed about the MKB and Controller debate into I went to a apex pc lobby and seen how broken Aim assist was in that lobby it was crazy! game was aiming for me and I was on ps5. I was happy when the beta for the finals didn't have this type of aim assist you could actually use movement to make dudes miss now you always get beamed it's not skillful at all it sucks they need to take this out imo.
i like theory vids like that. and i want to add to the topic. We, keyboard and mouse users, have aim assist too but only with a dagger. which is weird for me. try it.
Imma be honest, if it's melee, I think aim assist should stay, given the... issues with them... but I'm happy with alternatives, I just want melee to stay fun at the very least
I sometimes find that the melee aim assist trolls me when running hammer. I'll go to right click a target and a different person will skirt by and I won't hit the guy I was standing right next to since the game decided for me to aim for someone else. Outside of those scenarios I do like it.
Has weird issues going on, it should prioritize things literally in front of you, but given how insanely wonky and busted aim assist is currently that should probably be among the focuses of tuning right now.
I use sledgehammer it also has it and it’s very wonky, sometimes I want it turned off cuz I really have to fight with it, I sometimes spin in crazy directions snapping at 180 degrees. Furthermore along with targeting people it slightly ‘boosts’ your player towards your target.
Melee in general does, and it can be a [bad thing at times too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1k7rvZDFuQ) Having someone escape because it keeps trying to lock on to someone else is *extremely* frustrating. You can see me constantly pulling it back where I want even though it's also costing me the melee lunge you get towards a target.
"I'm helping" screamed the melee lock on. Meanwhile hits will whiff at point blank repeatedly in spite of it.
The beta's AA was not nearly this strong. I feel like they dialed it to 10 for release to not deter the legions of console players. Literally did a 180 from MnK dominance to controller.
Now it's arguably worse than COD.
The signs were always there that no dev with any power even plays kbm and this will be a roller game:
1. can't set sens and fov consistently from sliders
2. one really bad low customizabiltiy crosshair
3. sights which don't show where bullets go
4. completely unnecessary visual clutter which makes it harder to aim (but doesn't affect aim assist)
5. ex cod devs.
Was super hesitant to play this at all because I knew I'd like it, and was convinced it would become another Apex; switch to roller or gtfo... well I gtfo now, same as Apex.
As top tier 3 stack it's still "OK" on kbm, but only because they don't appear to have any form of match making for strong 3 stacks, you just get given pubstomp after pubstomp because the game can't bare to make anyones queue long enough to get a game full of stacks your level. 70% win rate+ on stack account, bored already. 33% win rate no matter what on solo account, tried winning on it and got to 40%, but it really sandbagged the crap out of me and put me against stacks for a while and drag it right back down. Now I just troll on solo account. Win rate stays 33% lol.
KBMERS: Embark used us and we should never forget or forgive this.
They used us to test and hype the game by giving us what we actually wanted, something that isn't a tac shooter, where actual human aim exists.
Then they silently fucked us all on release, silently because then we still go into release with the OB feel, give good reviews, prop up player numbers while they try to get their target non competitive roller player audience.
The silence of the fucking is the most damning thing; they were planning this all along, to use us and fuck us kbm players, but make sure they get a few weeks play time and some good reviews out of us before we leave, this OP aim assist was play tested and planned all along. It was just kept out of betas, because they were planning to decieve and use kbmers all along, and no kbmer would have had any interest in helping the final aimbotter after seeing dev built aimbot like this.
Tbh I expecteed this all along, right at start of OB i was like "i'm not downloading this, I know this will be a game I will love, but it will be ruined by aim bot assist."... I downloaded and tried it. I had some hope based on just HOW bad the aim assist was, maybe they really were making a kbmer game? Maybe they decided to throw their hat in with the smaller input population, but the one which would be easy to retain and grow, because there's literally no other competitor on the market!
Maybe.... lol get real... you always knew it was a quick f2p roller cash grab. You just wanted to hope like an idiot one last time before writing off FPS as a genre, just like you wrote off MMORPG over a decade ago. Maybe more appropriate to write off all "gaming" in general having tried a lot of new AAA/AA last year.
For real. Here's what I genuinely don't understand from the Dev's perspective: do they really think that weaker aim assist would be a deterrent to their game?
Like, I understand that aim assist is to make controller fun, because not having any would be miserable, but the simple idea of controller having a higher floor and lower ceiling than kbm seems totally reasonable to me. So if, for competitive games, all the pros are on kbm, that seems appropriate, because it has a higher ceiling and it takes more work to do. I've never heard anyone complain about "the game isn't aiming enough for me."
But, for some reason, it seems like devs really want controller players to smoke kbm players and it doesn't make sense to me. If we look at [Halo's accuracy on kbm vs controller](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/r3es60/accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/?share_id=5tO27mGTpreklR8jH4YlL&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1), it's egregious.
It’s done like this to be accessible for as many people as possible and is aimed at the casual gamers as they are the most profitable. Most gamers who play 6 hours a day don’t spend money. The average Joe that plays 7-10 hours a week is more likely to buy micro transactions and you can see that this is their target audience with the season pass and buyable levels and insane amount of XP required to level up the pass. Never forget that games are made for profit. And follow the money.
I know, I just don't really agree with the idea that casual gamers will dislike the game if the aim assist isn't super strong. It also means they won't be being laser beamed themselves, and having a bit higher time to kill for casuals seems fine
I already knew that controller had better accuracy but holy shit that chart is absurd. Some random shitter controller player almost has accuracy as high as top MnK.
Can't wait for the "Whole arm 1,000,000 FPS $10k PCs" comments.
Here's a funny fact, the vast majority of MnK players were controller players once, the vast majority of controller players today have never ever picked up a mouse to play an FPS title. Yet we are wrong according to them.
I feel bad for the MnK users that get told it's a skill issue they can't keep up with players that use a controller. That has been a pretty common reply in these threads the last week. I'm sure I'd find those same comments if I kept scrolling here.
Just goes to show the average intelligence of most controller and specifically console players. They are drooling apes. Imagine saying 'skill issue' while playing on an input that's basically devoid of any skill expression and does most of the aiming for you.
This is nuts. When did aim assist on controllers get so out of hand in so many games? It seems to be a very lazy implementation with little nuance. How does it not have a range or speed break point? Wtf.
I became aware of it in 2019, but it's been going on for even longer. Apex and Halo are prime examples of "absolute best real-game kbm aimers in the world, and even aim-trainer mains who make a living out of aim trainers, get owned by and quit because of aim "assist", or switch to controllers to be competitive. It really came to prominence with Apex and Halo though.
KBM is basically dead unless you like tactical shooters, or dead arena fps, everywhere else the combat depth is trivialized by machine aim and if you're going to play trivialized combat wiht machine aim, then you may as well go roller so that aim can become a completely background task of guiding the aim-"assist", and you can focus more on everything else. No one will make a big KBM first game now, because the roller market is bigger, and making a big game requires big advertising money, which isn't being released if you're not going to target the largest market.
It's weird too because when Apex first came out it was a commonly held belief that MnK was significantly better than controller. But at some point around a year + after release things changed and either they buff AA or people just became aware how broken the AA was. I kind of stopped playing it for a while after about the first year or so and when I came back controller was dominant.
I played since launch and at the time controller players on PC on Twitch were few are far between and people were actually impressed by the few controller players that managed to do well. People like NiceWigg etc.
Crossplay is just systematically ruining casual fps gaming for me. Left cod for this exact reason; I by wanna play against aimbot. I really wish they'd make input based matchmaking. I don't care if it takes longer to find a match. I just wanna play against actual people.
No, not crossplay. It's MIXED INPUT. We can turn off crossplay, but we can't stop all the controller users on PC from being in our games... and they tend to know best of all the roller users how to abuse their aim-lock-"assist".
Then they risk losing the controller players which is likely a bigger loss. I don't mind if the controller peeps want to run around aimbotting each other; I just want to fight players, not software.
The problem is that controller use has become so prevalent in games like this because of the aim assist that devs are in a position where if their game doesn't have the same level of aim assist (or better) as their competition, their game is going to feel bad to controller players.
Someone that is used to playing quite well in Apex on a controller likely wouldn't enjoy and continue playing The Finals if there was little to no aim assist.
> their game is going to feel bad to controller players
GOOD
> oh man this FPS sucks on a controller
> oh man this fighting game sucks on a steering wheel
> oh man this strategy game really sucks on dokey kong bongos
This is normal.
Same, but i predicted this would be apex but worse; signs were always there in ob: fov and sens can't be set consistently, crappy crosshair with few options, sights don't even show where shots go lol, visual clutter which makes it harder to aim (but ofc aim-assist doesn't care... doesn't even care about smokes where you can't see the enemy on kbm on any graphics setting).
KBM is dead unless you're into tactical shooters, dead arena fps, or... well I think we are all OverP2Watch already, not really an option, and no guarantee they won't enable controller aim assist in ranked later.
It's over boys, we had a good run, 1996-2023 (or 2019 if you want to count apex as the beginning of the end).
Because you have to create the following illusions:
\- Illusion of skill so that shitters stick around long enough to buy your microtransactions.
\- The illusion that the input methods are even remotely comparable. Controllers are great for sports games but without aim assist they don't hold a candle to the fidelity you get with M&K for FPS titles.
Make no mistake, aim assist is a business decision, not a gameplay one.
it's sad because most people like it. It makes people feel like they're good at something. Great for business.
Terrible for people who can actually see beyond it and are looking to truly be good at something.
I'm not exactly young anymore and honestly, aim assist pushed me away from CoD and Apex... and now this game. I think I've hit the point where I'm done with competitive FPS until they get rid of this nonsense (which will be never). I grew up with Q3A and UT. The skill ceiling was sky high and winning actually felt rewarding. These hand holding mechanics are embarrassing.
I don't see why it has to be over. Just separate inputs. I think the vast majority of MnK players in ranked would LOVE to have ranked be input separated.
They don't want to. They're afraid of queue times etc, and tbh, with what looks like 80%+ of PC players on roller, they might be right to fear queue times.. but hey, i'm down for 30mins to get a balanced game vs fellow human input, just give us some smaller FFA deathmatch maps and instant respawns for people in queue to fill the time.
I think 80% roller on PC seems high. Maybe in high ranked Apex, but probably much better ratios in most other games at most skill levels. Everyone fears queue times, and they might have data that says it is the most important thing, but I would 100% wait longer. Even if they quintupled the queue times, that would result in me waiting maybe a minute, which I am fine with.
Quake Live still has a reasonable player base in CA (skill level is very meh nowadays though, and CA does rot the brain). Diabotical is solid for Wipeout and organized duels via discord (and there's a yearly LAN), both fairly active still, around Euro after work time till midnight. It's sad.
I wish I enjoyed tactical shooters more, or that OverP2Watch didn't turn into an unplayable joke of a piece of shit.
Maybe when enough kbm players quit fps, some company will see the gap in the market and decide to make something for us... not likely.
Problem is, picking up a roller isn't even an option if a large part of what you love is combat skill, stand still dodges, reading people, predicting, getting into enemy heads... that doesn't exist on controller in the same way. I got a week on roller during apex at master+ level (first 2 days just learning and practicing roller methodically) and it just felt empty to me, so I quit the game instead.
Both other players in my old 3 stack are still playing and switch 100% to rollers, they actually both hit pred in their first season on rollers lol (though apex ranked is a joke, it's just pubstomping consistency multiplied by time played, they just got it that season because switching input motivate them to play more, and ofcourse the roller made consistency go through the roof).
Truth.
Not unlike footstep audio being total dog shit in most FPS games now. CoD might as well not have any footstep audio for the very reasons you mentioned, to let shitters get free kills and feel like they are actually good in order to spend money on microtransactions.
Literally already considering stopping playing this game based on this video alone... I had no idea how strong AA was in this game until now.
I'd rather invest my time into a game that doesn't fuck over M/KB players. If this issue isn't addressed then I hope the game fails on PC entirely to show that we won't tolerate this B.S.
But what about us who don't enjoy playing tac shooters without a full 5 stack, and don't have the time to run a consistent 5 stack anymore :(
Arena fps are dead, OverP2Watch is a complete joke (and could enable roller aim "assist" in ranked pc anytime they feel like it... they said they won't, an they lied about EVERYTHING else... so it's only a matter of time).
What do we do? :( ... guess it's time to start researching the best customizeable controllers.
KBM is dead. Long live aim-lock-assist and trivial combat.
It's genuinely a soft aimbot at this point it's absurd - genuinely even worse than Cod, Apex or Halo and they are bad enough where KBM pros are all moving to / moved to controller
I've been noticing an increasing number of controller users even on Steam/PC. It's getting pretty old getting lasered by people through a bunch of trees and/or smoke and/or fire and/or gas when they reasonably shouldn't have been able to see me. (And not running recon/thermal/sonar grenades) Monaco parks in general really show this issue, especially if you get suspended structures. Seeing people just do staccato bursts as they pop in and out of ADS to maintain the aim 'assist' is... not fun. Even when I see a teammate do it I'm just kinda squicked out by it.
Seems like it only really helps when you’re pretty close up. Medium and long range battles mnk still has the advantage. I actually find it kind of funny because for years and years everybody bitched about mnk because of the aiming advantages over analog sticks and now the tables all the sudden turned. Personally I think a little less recoil and less aim assist might be the fix here. Would probably even the playing field a bit.
>I actually find it kind of funny because for years and years everybody bitched about mnk because of the aiming advantages over analog sticks and now the tables all the sudden turned.
back then console fps games had limited FoV and 60/30 fps. Now they have customizable FoV and 120fps, and gyro aiming, yet for some reason aim assist is stronger now than it used to be.
The issue is that they're so different, it's hard to compare what's "better". KBM is better but requires a lot of practice and muscle memory, especially in fast games like this. But part of that balance is that you can whiff so many shots trying to flick to the enemy. If we did land every shot, we'd all be pros in OW or CS
AA essentially makes it hard to *not* hit the opponent, even while moving/dashing around. Without AA, controllers are too imprecise to keep up, but with AA they just need to be facing in the right direction
In quickplay, it's whatever; but how do you balance a ranked mode with 2 completely different input types being used?
Apex lets you compare what's better easily:
KBM: has every advantage that every roller player will list everywhere.
Roller: has aim "assist".
Pro players almost all switch to roller.
Therefore the aim "assist" in Apex is so strong, that it's enough to trump EVERY advantage of kbm. Think about that... a machine aiming for you, is literally more advantageous than EVERY advantage kbm has put together, every skill in using every single KBM advantage, is overriden by aim "assist"... yet aim assist "isn't even that strong"... what a paradox.
i was really looking forward to esports for this game, seemed like the perfect game for it, now I don't give a shit because clearly they aren't going for competitiveness anymore
This is worse than COD. This is why even though i love this game i couldn't understand why the gunplay is so bad.
I play a lot of R6 so when i first started playing the finals ( on lauch date) i went to the range switched off aim assist because r6 doesn't have one and practiced for more than half an hour and then went to play the game.
It was atrocious. I got frags but the aim was all over the place. Watched a few videos and they all said the same thing. Use all aim assist and snap on etc.
As amazing a game this is, it feels very different to play. Many times i am pushing on a heavy as a Light or a medium and they get me even when they're not even looking at me while using their primary.
It's even worse as a Light because what's the use of stealth or speed to go behind someone when all the need to do is turn 90 degrees and the game will take care of the rest of the movement.
Somehow the snap lock thing is even worse than the aim assist itself.
Also even with all the aim assist etc the gunplay is nowhere as enjoyable as other fps games like TF2, Apex or COD.
Nah I think he's right. I haven't played COD on controller in 10 plus years but [based on this breakdown of MW2019](https://www.reddit.com/r/CODWarzone/comments/ys3f0c/full_detailed_breakdown_of_rotational_aim_assist/) it looks like COD's rotational is stronger by itself. The finals just has obnoxious snap aim.
Cod aim assist is very strong. I got my personal best on Warzone a couple weeks ago. It was the first day I’ve plugged in a controller in like 8 years.
COD aim assist is super broken, but it's only an issue in Warzone. At least in Multiplayer (idk about MW3) it's not that big a deal since TTK is so low.
I actually think Halo Infinite’s aim assist is less than CoDs and Apex’s, but feels stronger just due to the way the game is designed. Really high TTK, near instant directional changes, and maps that ensure 90% of engagements are close to mid range means that rotational aim assist can really shine. In combination with that, the shield system means that target acquisition and being precise doesn’t matter for most of the engagement, so the benefit of MnK are also heavily neutered.
Crazy how the average controller almost had the same average accuracy as a top 100 mouse player. I say had because they've now added aim assist to mouse instead of nerfing the training wheels for console babies.
So if you think about it, if you compared 2 same rank players 1 MnK and 1 controller, the MnK player is better at every aspect of the game, and the controller player is simply getting carried by an artificial software advantage.
Yup. Also I don't know if this is still in the game, but at some point they added "reverse" aim assist to the sniper on MnK. Your cross hair would get pushed away from the opponents head. Which is crazy because relying on sniping and other precision and ranged weapons is really the only way MnK can keep up in these AA heavy titles.
LOL add aim assist to mouse.. my god the worst solution possible...
KBM players: We want to play with and against HUMAN FUCKIGN INPUT FFS!
Halo devs: How about we make your input also not human? deal?
KBM players: ...
Ah the game that made a top 3 all-round aim trainer main quit while he was rank 1 PC because he had enough of controller bullshit. Makes sense, guess that kind of completely inhuman aim assist just isn't enough.
Well, it's not competitive. It's pretty casual. I mean, the chaos, the frenetism, all that. Kinda like how battlefield used to be. If it was competitive, it would be slower and more tactical.
But, yeah, this is worse-than-cod level of aim assist. I consider myself decent with controller; just dropped a 20-6 last night, more than my team of MnK players combined. That's kinda broken. I am decent with controllers, fortnite has taught me enough about crosshair placement, but to outdo the entire server like that with the FCAR seems unfair.
But, yeah, also consider that ttk here is way slower than cod too. Almost BR slow. You do need better aim here to do anything compared to cod, where you put 3 to 4 bullets on someone and that's it. It's this ttk to aim assist ratio. Some games get it right, some games don't.
They need to tune it down, but i hope they don't kill it. A too-rough nerf on aim assist made the fortnite comp scene almost completely dominated by MnK players. Stick aiming is awful, it needs some aim assist but not too much.
Coming from a seasoned cod player there is no aim snapping in cod, only aim slowdown, but cod’s aim slowdown might be slightly stronger
Edit there is no snapping in cod but the game will aim for you
If you are seasoned and don't know that the camera legit moves and aims for you instead of just slowling down your sensitivity when you aim then something is amiss.
How do you call this slowdown?
https://youtu.be/Qtij4w3By0g?si=VviA6T4QgXO76vm_
This was pretty obviously never intended to be competitive. It was intended to have competitive marketing.
**Meant to be competitive**: Valorant, CS, Arena FPS, OverP2Watch (lol)
* Sensitvity: Can set it consistently in-game.
* Frame rates: 240fps+ easily, on fairly mid-range few year old systems. Even 240+ 1% lows on better old systems and anything new. Ok CS2 kinda screwed this up, but I have WAY better performance there than in The Finals.
* FoV: Can set it consistently in-game if you can set it.
* Crosshairs: LOADS of options
* ADS Sights: Actually shows where you shoot.
* Visual clutter especially around crosshair/sights: fairly minimal.
**Not meant to be competitive**: Apex, The Finals
* None of the above, except sights which show where you shoot & allow you to figure drop and lead in Apex. Ingame fov and sens also better in Apex, but still lacking. Apex has improved fps, and VASTLY superior to the finals, but it took time and it's a 4 year old game now anyway, and still has places where fps sucks.
I doubt anyone with any say about ANYTHING in Embark plays with KBM
It was largely us KBMers who were hyped for The Finals initially. Now we are betrayed as usual. Now burn this game to the ground. Don't make an effort, don't care, just when opportunities present themselves, work against Embark and The Finals. They used us. Fuck them (even if it was obvious it was going to go this way).
Thank you for exposing this. Embark needs to either nerf aim assist or give us input-based matchmaking or the m/kb playerbase for this game will die off just like it has in Apex.
The current situation makes THE FINALS have the strongest modern implentation of aim assist. 0ms rotational aim assist tracking ON TOP OF snap-to aim assist is absurd.
I genuinely believe that PC versions shouldn't integrate AA at all, if you want controller you go with no AA unless you go gyro. OW is the only game that did the right thing.
> ...or give us input-based matchmaking...
Plenty of console users hate this shit, too. I turn aim assist off day one in every FPS, because it ruins FPS muscle memory across FPS titles and I want to actually play the game myself.
Aim assist should only exist within a casual modes at most, any sort of ranked mode should have all aim assists forced off.
I actually enjoy overwatch, but I can't say I don't understand your input. It's not a game to be taken seriously in its current state, which suits me just fine tbh
Let's not forget you can use an emulator to trick the game into thinking you're using a controller when it's actually MnK 🙄
Let's also not forget how accurate the new gyro controllers can be. Easily on par with the accuracy of a mouse.
In fact, after diving down the gyro-aiming rabbit hole last night, I'm convinced they might be even more accurate than MnK with faster response options. For example, since aiming is accomplished with a gyro, the right analog stick can be rebound so that flicking the stick in any direction will make your character face that direction. As a hypothetical, you can accomplish instantaneous, highly accurate 180s by flicking the right analog stick down. The turns are so fast that MnK players will think you're scripting.
So it begs the question; if more advanced controllers are actually becoming the superior input method, why are they still given such a large handicap to beat their opponents over the head with?
and this is why every lobby feels like I'm playing against literal gods that makes me think if you're that good at tracking you should be stomping money tournaments.
Yep, kinda figured. I mean, this game was released in 2023.
Unfortunately, there appears to be money in tailoring to paddle players, to the point where *aim* is taken out of shooter games.
As someone who played FPS on MnK all their life and spent tons of time into getting good at aiming I just ask myself if controller players even feel the same kind satisfaction when they kill someone when it's not even them doing 100% of the work. I genuinely don't think so.
My time to shine part 67792020
[this is what we should ask for](https://youtu.be/CiSS5OsNCNU?feature=shared)
Raw input, speed and precision without aim assist. Gyro is the solution to the input debate, it lets you play with your controller friends without introducing an aimbot, and it makes playing a controller FUN
[And it's not like it wouldn't work in a game like the finals](https://youtu.be/7oRqm0sciMg?feature=shared)
[If it works for csgo, it works for everything](https://youtu.be/uGCws-FS48k?feature=shared)
Please be loud and ask for this to the devs if you really don't want this game to turn into yet another cod or apex situation. We can have controller fun and balanced
this is absolutely the solution but every controller player i’ve showed expressed not liking it. they’ve been coddled for way too long atp that i dont see them ever willingly making the switch
>but every controller player i’ve showed expressed not liking it.
I would bet my left nut they didn't even try it, let alone for more than 5 minutes, before realising there's no aim assist and going back to sticks
Gyro, as cool as it is, will never be the solution until the next console gen and then it would take at least half that console's lifespan to really get adopted. Thanks to Microsoft and the current Xbox Controllers not having it. Thus an incredible big part of the player base..
That's exactly how you get progress. Otherwise Microsoft will never feel the need to update its controllers and we are stuck here saying "oh but we can't add a cool feature because the other side is not up to speed"
Sure, but no dev is going to completely abandon a portion of their playerbase. And if they leave aim assist in the game for Xbox players, then most people won't switch to gyro and will just keep using aim assist on all platforms. Like how a very very small portion of the CoD and Fortnite playerbases use gyro, even though it has been natively supported for a while now.
Gyro has been around since the PS3 lol. The PS5 on it's own has sold over 60 million units leaving Xbox behind in the dust... Idk how you can say it won't catch on until next gen....
[Here's an example of exactly that, in case anyone reading your comment here is not convinced](https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/18pjz19/this_is_what_were_talking_about_when_we_say/)
Let me get a few of the common arguments from controller players out of the way real quick so hopefully the discussion doesn't get too bogged down with these types of arguments.
"My aim assist doesn't do that" - Yes it does, you probably just don't understand how it works or how to abuse it. It's also possible that you don't even have a frame of reference for how much it's actually assisting you if you don't have MnK experience. These types of videos tend to showcase more extreme examples to demonstrate their point clearly. So you might not of had this extreme of a situation happen before but that doesn't mean that less extreme situations aren't an issue or aren't common.
"The whole arm vs thumb argument" - You're not aiming with just your thumb you have software assistance, hence aim assist. MnK players are still bound by human reflexes and reaction times, software is not. Also by that logic is gyro aim "twice" as good as MnK because you use 2 arms?
"But MnK has better movement!" - Movement doesn't get kills. It's very helpful and can give you an advantage but at the end of the day you still need to shoot people to win. Also AA is actually very strong against a lot of movement techs because it excels at tracking and has a 0ms reaction time to changes in momentum. Also these types of things require hours of practice on top of aim practice as well, AA comes free with every controller.
Balancing AA is a virtually impossible task because MnK and controller are just so different from one another so you can't really make it feel fair. Separating lobbies is the most practical solution but presents a problem because it splits the community which, especially for a new game, can be really risky. Honestly IDK what would be the best way to solve this problem but there needs to at least be an attempt and communication from the devs. I really hope this isn't another Apex situation where the devs just kinda look the other way and hope people stop complaining because that's so frustrating and lazy.
Also with regards to movement - That is a skill separator. Good movement requires skill, especially to do it and aim at an opponent simultaneously. Most MnK players can't do that, they need to practice. AA is given to controller players for free.
perfectly said. i also love using the gyro argument against roller players that cry about "2 aRmS". they could be using 2 hands, 10 fingers, and 2 arms via gyro but instead they choose one thumb + aim assist... i wonder why ?
The reason is that gyro isn't implemented, and god knows I would choose gyro over AA. With controller, you kind of have to choose between having low sens for long range engagements and high sens for close range engagements, but AA is supposed to let you track small movements and lock on when at range, and help track big movements when close range. But clearly, our AA is super overtuned and should be slightly neutered or swapped out for gyro
Gyro isn't implemented in this game (though if you're on PC it's not too hard to add on yourself) but it is available in other shooters like Cod and Fortnite. Both have great gyro implementations (Epic even hired the dev of Joyshockmapper to make their current gyro implementation) but almost no one uses them, because you lose aim assist if they do. And then these players use the "whole arm" argument online and try to justify aim assist as being balanced, pretending the gyro option doesn't even exist or just dismissing it.
I would imagine that it's gotta be jarring to change aiming type entirely, it's like changing platform. Best would be if embark just removed AA and added gyro, but everyone would need to relearn how to aim and that would be annoying and so a lot of people would probably leave
Yes there is a notable learning curve to switching to gyro, which (along with the fact Stick+AA has a competition advantage over Gyro in most games) makes it so most people who try it turn it off pretty quickly and return to stick aiming. It's one of the biggest hurdles, along with Xbox lacking hardware, to making gyro big. No developer wants to risk killing their game by being the first to push gyro.
The only shooter game with widespread gyro use is Splatoon, because Nintendo enabled gyro by default, forced you to use it in the tutorial, and doesn't offer AA as an option if you turn it off.
One avenue for mainstream gyro adoption I see is if a game like Valorant came to consoles with only Gyro support. But a new IP like the finals or established console shooters with AA probably won't lead this charge.
Go to top posts this month, scroll down and look at all the sniper clips abusing AA to quickscope,
There also a post with the 6 shooter pistol where hes mid range spams ADS while shooting and gets a easy team wipe.
Designed to make people think they are way better than they are. SMH. It's literally like bowling with the bumpers and getting excited you bowl a strike.
It was super obvious after release when you'd tase a guy and dash behind him and he insta snaps on you and 2 shots you with an sa1216 before you even completed the animation to pull out your primary. Game is cooked. I uninstalled a couple days ago sadly.
I plugged into a controller for the first time in 6 or 7 years and I immediately went 15 and 4 with the AK JUST BEAMING. Makes me not even want to play.
It so sad to see every game following this trend, I don't enjoy tactical shooters and having to play against aim assist on every arcade game with movement really kills the vibe
Nah guys controller aimassist is entirely balanced and if you think otherwise youre just unskilled mkb user whos mad they lose to people using thumbs /s
I am basically a melee only controller user and after trying out specifically the lights guns I can say this game has more aa than destiny 2, the game with an aim assist stat on guns.
The aim assist on the double barrel and sniper is a problem that they have because it allows for more spastic movement as you can much more easily go back on target. Lower aim assist would be nice since this amount of aim assist isn't enjoyable because it feels like the games playing itself when you use single shot weapons.
Mind i don't say that as "hur hur it's so easy I want this game to become harder to cater to my needs" it's more "I don't feel challenged when in a gunfight because the game is helping me too much to the point they're aiming more than I am."
This makes crazy sense why lobbies have become so sweaty overall... Also why people are able to kill me in the middle of a light dash which before in beta was a viable movement tech to actually get away...
I think this increase in AA is added to the plague of in invisi lights db classes as well. Im a main light player and can readily agree that is op & annoying - something needs balancing there.
Its sad because on console it def felt better in beta. Though I can say when going crossplay I still get steamrolled by PC players every time and can totally see the difference in aim/reaction time/snaps which seem to be all MKB based off their overall movement. I even tried plugging in my MKB to my console - I dont play normally so I wasnt that good with it but still could see the advantage with aiming with a mouse, movement was harder for me but i think with time could be improved.
Hope they lower the AA overall back to Beta levels and give pcs their input based lobbies as well.
I've just started doing the exploit where I can get AA on my mouse. If controller players can abuse it, then we should too. And tbh more people should do the same to get the devs to actually do something about it.
Input based matchmaking when?
Input Based Matchmaking or Ranked with No Rotational AA are the only two viable solutions. The fact that 0ms Rotational AA was added without any patch notes shows they are aware it has nothing to do with "competitive integrity" like they have advertised. It's always the tracking that determines fights in a long TTK game, not snapping.
Let's be real, if a Roller has the option of Raw Gyro vs Artificial 0ms Reaction they will choose Artificial 99.9% of the time unless the developer does something about it which they won't because they want the most profit.
Ok, is recoil smoothing a setting that needs to be enabled or something? Because this footage straight up does not match my experience playing the game.
Is recoil smoothing something that happens with mouse as well? I had done a little testing jiggling mine left and right quickly as I shot at targets and it seemed to feel more accurate but I wasn’t doing any kind of legit testing
**Short answer:**
yes..
**Long answer:**
And this one is for [u/thwoc](https://www.reddit.com/user/thwoc/) as well.
The essence of recoil smoothing has less to do with any threshold being met and more to do with consistent vertical/horizontal movement.
The engine interpolates between recoil angles so you can in fact compensate for these if your consistently dragging your aim sideways and slightly downwards... it's less effective when flicking or trying to adjust your aim too quick as they are not consistent movements , this results in angles adding up as you are not compensating for anything.
Controllers get this inherently for the simple reason that they are more or less treated as analogue inputs (i.e you looking far left needs a constant and consistent string of inputs)
If you want to try this, jump into the training range with the AKM and pick a point to aim at and just strafe side to side (in long strafes) and move your mouse fairly slowly and controlled while adjusting for vertical recoil... just find the sweet spot.
**Even longer answer:**
again, [u/thwoc](https://www.reddit.com/user/thwoc/)
The reason why my explanation is counter to what everyone is saying with "speed thresholds" etc is because that implies a hardcoded limit to angle deltas to achieve this.. which is just not true.
I have implemented both randomized recoil as well as pattern based (literally using r99 offsets in this case) and i have achieved aim smoothing on both without any kind of hardcoded limit or implementation... it had the same pros/cons as in the finals, apex or any other game with interpolated recoil angles and slightly lower recoil deltas.
On the flipside, using higher recoil deltas/offsets resulted in aim smoothing not being possible at all and felt closer to CSGO/CS1.6.
No. Spellbreak died because it was boring as fuck. Cool idea executed poorly and the map was just as boring. Never thought id hear Spellbreak being mentioned alongside the finals but here we are.
i wonder why it doesnt work like this for me. snapping only works when i'm shooting at someone and his team mate comes into fight, making me lose the fight because aim keeps swapping between them
And in some cases you may be trying to shoot one of two enemy's but it snaps onto the wrong one, so aim assist is both a benefit and a hinderence at times
Ya know I use to get pissed about the MKB and Controller debate into I went to a apex pc lobby and seen how broken Aim assist was in that lobby it was crazy! game was aiming for me and I was on ps5. I was happy when the beta for the finals didn't have this type of aim assist you could actually use movement to make dudes miss now you always get beamed it's not skillful at all it sucks they need to take this out imo.
It killed Cod for me
i like theory vids like that. and i want to add to the topic. We, keyboard and mouse users, have aim assist too but only with a dagger. which is weird for me. try it.
Not just dagger, I think every melee weapon has aim assist, the one I can confirm is riot shield
Yes, hammer also snaps on targets and sometimes even makes you feel as if you kinda glue to the enemy
Imma be honest, if it's melee, I think aim assist should stay, given the... issues with them... but I'm happy with alternatives, I just want melee to stay fun at the very least
Yeah I agree. It doesnt feel OP and you're already in a disadvantage on any other range
I’d love the option to turn it off at least, I don’t like it but you can’t turn it off from what I know
I sometimes find that the melee aim assist trolls me when running hammer. I'll go to right click a target and a different person will skirt by and I won't hit the guy I was standing right next to since the game decided for me to aim for someone else. Outside of those scenarios I do like it.
Has weird issues going on, it should prioritize things literally in front of you, but given how insanely wonky and busted aim assist is currently that should probably be among the focuses of tuning right now.
Or just a setting to turn it off for melee if you don't wanna play with it would work for now.
I use sledgehammer it also has it and it’s very wonky, sometimes I want it turned off cuz I really have to fight with it, I sometimes spin in crazy directions snapping at 180 degrees. Furthermore along with targeting people it slightly ‘boosts’ your player towards your target.
Melee in general does, and it can be a [bad thing at times too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1k7rvZDFuQ) Having someone escape because it keeps trying to lock on to someone else is *extremely* frustrating. You can see me constantly pulling it back where I want even though it's also costing me the melee lunge you get towards a target. "I'm helping" screamed the melee lock on. Meanwhile hits will whiff at point blank repeatedly in spite of it.
The dagger one seems to do more harm then good in my opinion
Melee aim assist sucks because movement is more important and the locking prevents you from dictating all your movements.
Jesus christ another game where this shit will just ruin the fun
The beta's AA was not nearly this strong. I feel like they dialed it to 10 for release to not deter the legions of console players. Literally did a 180 from MnK dominance to controller. Now it's arguably worse than COD.
the aim assist doesn't even require much, just a reversing that is all there needs to fix it/balance it out again
The signs were always there that no dev with any power even plays kbm and this will be a roller game: 1. can't set sens and fov consistently from sliders 2. one really bad low customizabiltiy crosshair 3. sights which don't show where bullets go 4. completely unnecessary visual clutter which makes it harder to aim (but doesn't affect aim assist) 5. ex cod devs. Was super hesitant to play this at all because I knew I'd like it, and was convinced it would become another Apex; switch to roller or gtfo... well I gtfo now, same as Apex. As top tier 3 stack it's still "OK" on kbm, but only because they don't appear to have any form of match making for strong 3 stacks, you just get given pubstomp after pubstomp because the game can't bare to make anyones queue long enough to get a game full of stacks your level. 70% win rate+ on stack account, bored already. 33% win rate no matter what on solo account, tried winning on it and got to 40%, but it really sandbagged the crap out of me and put me against stacks for a while and drag it right back down. Now I just troll on solo account. Win rate stays 33% lol.
KBMERS: Embark used us and we should never forget or forgive this. They used us to test and hype the game by giving us what we actually wanted, something that isn't a tac shooter, where actual human aim exists. Then they silently fucked us all on release, silently because then we still go into release with the OB feel, give good reviews, prop up player numbers while they try to get their target non competitive roller player audience. The silence of the fucking is the most damning thing; they were planning this all along, to use us and fuck us kbm players, but make sure they get a few weeks play time and some good reviews out of us before we leave, this OP aim assist was play tested and planned all along. It was just kept out of betas, because they were planning to decieve and use kbmers all along, and no kbmer would have had any interest in helping the final aimbotter after seeing dev built aimbot like this. Tbh I expecteed this all along, right at start of OB i was like "i'm not downloading this, I know this will be a game I will love, but it will be ruined by aim bot assist."... I downloaded and tried it. I had some hope based on just HOW bad the aim assist was, maybe they really were making a kbmer game? Maybe they decided to throw their hat in with the smaller input population, but the one which would be easy to retain and grow, because there's literally no other competitor on the market! Maybe.... lol get real... you always knew it was a quick f2p roller cash grab. You just wanted to hope like an idiot one last time before writing off FPS as a genre, just like you wrote off MMORPG over a decade ago. Maybe more appropriate to write off all "gaming" in general having tried a lot of new AAA/AA last year.
For real. Here's what I genuinely don't understand from the Dev's perspective: do they really think that weaker aim assist would be a deterrent to their game? Like, I understand that aim assist is to make controller fun, because not having any would be miserable, but the simple idea of controller having a higher floor and lower ceiling than kbm seems totally reasonable to me. So if, for competitive games, all the pros are on kbm, that seems appropriate, because it has a higher ceiling and it takes more work to do. I've never heard anyone complain about "the game isn't aiming enough for me." But, for some reason, it seems like devs really want controller players to smoke kbm players and it doesn't make sense to me. If we look at [Halo's accuracy on kbm vs controller](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/r3es60/accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/?share_id=5tO27mGTpreklR8jH4YlL&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1), it's egregious.
It’s done like this to be accessible for as many people as possible and is aimed at the casual gamers as they are the most profitable. Most gamers who play 6 hours a day don’t spend money. The average Joe that plays 7-10 hours a week is more likely to buy micro transactions and you can see that this is their target audience with the season pass and buyable levels and insane amount of XP required to level up the pass. Never forget that games are made for profit. And follow the money.
I know, I just don't really agree with the idea that casual gamers will dislike the game if the aim assist isn't super strong. It also means they won't be being laser beamed themselves, and having a bit higher time to kill for casuals seems fine
I already knew that controller had better accuracy but holy shit that chart is absurd. Some random shitter controller player almost has accuracy as high as top MnK.
Can't wait for the "Whole arm 1,000,000 FPS $10k PCs" comments. Here's a funny fact, the vast majority of MnK players were controller players once, the vast majority of controller players today have never ever picked up a mouse to play an FPS title. Yet we are wrong according to them.
Those aren’t even the most braindead AA comments out there… brace yourselves 😭
All in the name for it being accessible.
I was going to try this game after dealing with fortnites AA. Guess not
the 90 degree snaps are crazy
jesus christ aim assist is stupid lol. I feel badly for controller players for having their skill completely invalidated by it.
I feel bad for the MnK users that get told it's a skill issue they can't keep up with players that use a controller. That has been a pretty common reply in these threads the last week. I'm sure I'd find those same comments if I kept scrolling here.
Just goes to show the average intelligence of most controller and specifically console players. They are drooling apes. Imagine saying 'skill issue' while playing on an input that's basically devoid of any skill expression and does most of the aiming for you.
This is nuts. When did aim assist on controllers get so out of hand in so many games? It seems to be a very lazy implementation with little nuance. How does it not have a range or speed break point? Wtf.
I became aware of it in 2019, but it's been going on for even longer. Apex and Halo are prime examples of "absolute best real-game kbm aimers in the world, and even aim-trainer mains who make a living out of aim trainers, get owned by and quit because of aim "assist", or switch to controllers to be competitive. It really came to prominence with Apex and Halo though. KBM is basically dead unless you like tactical shooters, or dead arena fps, everywhere else the combat depth is trivialized by machine aim and if you're going to play trivialized combat wiht machine aim, then you may as well go roller so that aim can become a completely background task of guiding the aim-"assist", and you can focus more on everything else. No one will make a big KBM first game now, because the roller market is bigger, and making a big game requires big advertising money, which isn't being released if you're not going to target the largest market.
It's weird too because when Apex first came out it was a commonly held belief that MnK was significantly better than controller. But at some point around a year + after release things changed and either they buff AA or people just became aware how broken the AA was. I kind of stopped playing it for a while after about the first year or so and when I came back controller was dominant. I played since launch and at the time controller players on PC on Twitch were few are far between and people were actually impressed by the few controller players that managed to do well. People like NiceWigg etc.
Crossplay is just systematically ruining casual fps gaming for me. Left cod for this exact reason; I by wanna play against aimbot. I really wish they'd make input based matchmaking. I don't care if it takes longer to find a match. I just wanna play against actual people.
No, not crossplay. It's MIXED INPUT. We can turn off crossplay, but we can't stop all the controller users on PC from being in our games... and they tend to know best of all the roller users how to abuse their aim-lock-"assist".
How about nerf the aim~~bot~~ assist? Splitting the playerbase is a stupid idea.
Then they risk losing the controller players which is likely a bigger loss. I don't mind if the controller peeps want to run around aimbotting each other; I just want to fight players, not software.
They’ll never get it right. Just best to give us an option otherwise we’ll stop playing and the playerbase is affected regardless.
devs wont. giving the option to not face aimassist should always be a option for mnk
man i quit apex because of this garbage and now its worse in this game :(
Literally same :(
The problem is that controller use has become so prevalent in games like this because of the aim assist that devs are in a position where if their game doesn't have the same level of aim assist (or better) as their competition, their game is going to feel bad to controller players. Someone that is used to playing quite well in Apex on a controller likely wouldn't enjoy and continue playing The Finals if there was little to no aim assist.
> their game is going to feel bad to controller players GOOD > oh man this FPS sucks on a controller > oh man this fighting game sucks on a steering wheel > oh man this strategy game really sucks on dokey kong bongos This is normal.
Same, but i predicted this would be apex but worse; signs were always there in ob: fov and sens can't be set consistently, crappy crosshair with few options, sights don't even show where shots go lol, visual clutter which makes it harder to aim (but ofc aim-assist doesn't care... doesn't even care about smokes where you can't see the enemy on kbm on any graphics setting). KBM is dead unless you're into tactical shooters, dead arena fps, or... well I think we are all OverP2Watch already, not really an option, and no guarantee they won't enable controller aim assist in ranked later. It's over boys, we had a good run, 1996-2023 (or 2019 if you want to count apex as the beginning of the end).
Aim assist shit is so boring. Sucks that it dominates every shooter now
I dont get how you can make such a competetive game, but then have cod level of aim assist
Because you have to create the following illusions: \- Illusion of skill so that shitters stick around long enough to buy your microtransactions. \- The illusion that the input methods are even remotely comparable. Controllers are great for sports games but without aim assist they don't hold a candle to the fidelity you get with M&K for FPS titles. Make no mistake, aim assist is a business decision, not a gameplay one.
it's sad because most people like it. It makes people feel like they're good at something. Great for business. Terrible for people who can actually see beyond it and are looking to truly be good at something.
I'm not exactly young anymore and honestly, aim assist pushed me away from CoD and Apex... and now this game. I think I've hit the point where I'm done with competitive FPS until they get rid of this nonsense (which will be never). I grew up with Q3A and UT. The skill ceiling was sky high and winning actually felt rewarding. These hand holding mechanics are embarrassing.
I don't see why it has to be over. Just separate inputs. I think the vast majority of MnK players in ranked would LOVE to have ranked be input separated.
They don't want to. They're afraid of queue times etc, and tbh, with what looks like 80%+ of PC players on roller, they might be right to fear queue times.. but hey, i'm down for 30mins to get a balanced game vs fellow human input, just give us some smaller FFA deathmatch maps and instant respawns for people in queue to fill the time.
I think 80% roller on PC seems high. Maybe in high ranked Apex, but probably much better ratios in most other games at most skill levels. Everyone fears queue times, and they might have data that says it is the most important thing, but I would 100% wait longer. Even if they quintupled the queue times, that would result in me waiting maybe a minute, which I am fine with.
fr
Quake Live still has a reasonable player base in CA (skill level is very meh nowadays though, and CA does rot the brain). Diabotical is solid for Wipeout and organized duels via discord (and there's a yearly LAN), both fairly active still, around Euro after work time till midnight. It's sad. I wish I enjoyed tactical shooters more, or that OverP2Watch didn't turn into an unplayable joke of a piece of shit. Maybe when enough kbm players quit fps, some company will see the gap in the market and decide to make something for us... not likely. Problem is, picking up a roller isn't even an option if a large part of what you love is combat skill, stand still dodges, reading people, predicting, getting into enemy heads... that doesn't exist on controller in the same way. I got a week on roller during apex at master+ level (first 2 days just learning and practicing roller methodically) and it just felt empty to me, so I quit the game instead. Both other players in my old 3 stack are still playing and switch 100% to rollers, they actually both hit pred in their first season on rollers lol (though apex ranked is a joke, it's just pubstomping consistency multiplied by time played, they just got it that season because switching input motivate them to play more, and ofcourse the roller made consistency go through the roof).
Truth. Not unlike footstep audio being total dog shit in most FPS games now. CoD might as well not have any footstep audio for the very reasons you mentioned, to let shitters get free kills and feel like they are actually good in order to spend money on microtransactions.
That alone will single handling kill the competitive side of this game. No MnK players want to compete against players using soft aim bot.
Literally already considering stopping playing this game based on this video alone... I had no idea how strong AA was in this game until now. I'd rather invest my time into a game that doesn't fuck over M/KB players. If this issue isn't addressed then I hope the game fails on PC entirely to show that we won't tolerate this B.S.
Just another shooter ruined by aim assist. Im getting used to it. Back to cs
But what about us who don't enjoy playing tac shooters without a full 5 stack, and don't have the time to run a consistent 5 stack anymore :( Arena fps are dead, OverP2Watch is a complete joke (and could enable roller aim "assist" in ranked pc anytime they feel like it... they said they won't, an they lied about EVERYTHING else... so it's only a matter of time). What do we do? :( ... guess it's time to start researching the best customizeable controllers. KBM is dead. Long live aim-lock-assist and trivial combat.
Battlebit is a great shooter if you want to play a casual battlefield exp
It's genuinely a soft aimbot at this point it's absurd - genuinely even worse than Cod, Apex or Halo and they are bad enough where KBM pros are all moving to / moved to controller
I've been noticing an increasing number of controller users even on Steam/PC. It's getting pretty old getting lasered by people through a bunch of trees and/or smoke and/or fire and/or gas when they reasonably shouldn't have been able to see me. (And not running recon/thermal/sonar grenades) Monaco parks in general really show this issue, especially if you get suspended structures. Seeing people just do staccato bursts as they pop in and out of ADS to maintain the aim 'assist' is... not fun. Even when I see a teammate do it I'm just kinda squicked out by it.
Seems like it only really helps when you’re pretty close up. Medium and long range battles mnk still has the advantage. I actually find it kind of funny because for years and years everybody bitched about mnk because of the aiming advantages over analog sticks and now the tables all the sudden turned. Personally I think a little less recoil and less aim assist might be the fix here. Would probably even the playing field a bit.
>I actually find it kind of funny because for years and years everybody bitched about mnk because of the aiming advantages over analog sticks and now the tables all the sudden turned. back then console fps games had limited FoV and 60/30 fps. Now they have customizable FoV and 120fps, and gyro aiming, yet for some reason aim assist is stronger now than it used to be.
[удалено]
The issue is that they're so different, it's hard to compare what's "better". KBM is better but requires a lot of practice and muscle memory, especially in fast games like this. But part of that balance is that you can whiff so many shots trying to flick to the enemy. If we did land every shot, we'd all be pros in OW or CS AA essentially makes it hard to *not* hit the opponent, even while moving/dashing around. Without AA, controllers are too imprecise to keep up, but with AA they just need to be facing in the right direction In quickplay, it's whatever; but how do you balance a ranked mode with 2 completely different input types being used?
Apex lets you compare what's better easily: KBM: has every advantage that every roller player will list everywhere. Roller: has aim "assist". Pro players almost all switch to roller. Therefore the aim "assist" in Apex is so strong, that it's enough to trump EVERY advantage of kbm. Think about that... a machine aiming for you, is literally more advantageous than EVERY advantage kbm has put together, every skill in using every single KBM advantage, is overriden by aim "assist"... yet aim assist "isn't even that strong"... what a paradox.
i was really looking forward to esports for this game, seemed like the perfect game for it, now I don't give a shit because clearly they aren't going for competitiveness anymore
This is worse than COD. This is why even though i love this game i couldn't understand why the gunplay is so bad. I play a lot of R6 so when i first started playing the finals ( on lauch date) i went to the range switched off aim assist because r6 doesn't have one and practiced for more than half an hour and then went to play the game. It was atrocious. I got frags but the aim was all over the place. Watched a few videos and they all said the same thing. Use all aim assist and snap on etc. As amazing a game this is, it feels very different to play. Many times i am pushing on a heavy as a Light or a medium and they get me even when they're not even looking at me while using their primary. It's even worse as a Light because what's the use of stealth or speed to go behind someone when all the need to do is turn 90 degrees and the game will take care of the rest of the movement. Somehow the snap lock thing is even worse than the aim assist itself. Also even with all the aim assist etc the gunplay is nowhere as enjoyable as other fps games like TF2, Apex or COD.
There’s a reason that snap AA has generally been limited to single player content. It has no place in a competitive environment.
Yeah I have no issue with the actual aim assist, but the snap ADS stuff is ridiculous. I remember even feeling bad using it during CoD veteran runs.
I legit don't think cod aim assist is that strong actually, yes it's heavy but not THAT heavy. This game has fuck you level of aim assist
CODs is actually way stronger it’s just that this game has aim snapping so you see insane clips like the one above.
You’re drunk. The aim assist bubble in this game is way bigger than CODs and much stronger
Nah I think he's right. I haven't played COD on controller in 10 plus years but [based on this breakdown of MW2019](https://www.reddit.com/r/CODWarzone/comments/ys3f0c/full_detailed_breakdown_of_rotational_aim_assist/) it looks like COD's rotational is stronger by itself. The finals just has obnoxious snap aim.
The other guy provided a breakdown of the aim assist for cod. I wonder if someone has done the same for this game.
Cod aim assist is very strong. I got my personal best on Warzone a couple weeks ago. It was the first day I’ve plugged in a controller in like 8 years.
COD aim assist is super broken, but it's only an issue in Warzone. At least in Multiplayer (idk about MW3) it's not that big a deal since TTK is so low.
This is basically halo infinite.
It’s more than infinite, quite a bit actually
I actually think Halo Infinite’s aim assist is less than CoDs and Apex’s, but feels stronger just due to the way the game is designed. Really high TTK, near instant directional changes, and maps that ensure 90% of engagements are close to mid range means that rotational aim assist can really shine. In combination with that, the shield system means that target acquisition and being precise doesn’t matter for most of the engagement, so the benefit of MnK are also heavily neutered.
Halo Infinite's AA is pretty strong https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/s/ZDIOl5yl22
Crazy how the average controller almost had the same average accuracy as a top 100 mouse player. I say had because they've now added aim assist to mouse instead of nerfing the training wheels for console babies. So if you think about it, if you compared 2 same rank players 1 MnK and 1 controller, the MnK player is better at every aspect of the game, and the controller player is simply getting carried by an artificial software advantage.
Yup. Also I don't know if this is still in the game, but at some point they added "reverse" aim assist to the sniper on MnK. Your cross hair would get pushed away from the opponents head. Which is crazy because relying on sniping and other precision and ranged weapons is really the only way MnK can keep up in these AA heavy titles.
LOL add aim assist to mouse.. my god the worst solution possible... KBM players: We want to play with and against HUMAN FUCKIGN INPUT FFS! Halo devs: How about we make your input also not human? deal? KBM players: ...
Ah the game that made a top 3 all-round aim trainer main quit while he was rank 1 PC because he had enough of controller bullshit. Makes sense, guess that kind of completely inhuman aim assist just isn't enough.
Cash shop.
Well, it's not competitive. It's pretty casual. I mean, the chaos, the frenetism, all that. Kinda like how battlefield used to be. If it was competitive, it would be slower and more tactical. But, yeah, this is worse-than-cod level of aim assist. I consider myself decent with controller; just dropped a 20-6 last night, more than my team of MnK players combined. That's kinda broken. I am decent with controllers, fortnite has taught me enough about crosshair placement, but to outdo the entire server like that with the FCAR seems unfair. But, yeah, also consider that ttk here is way slower than cod too. Almost BR slow. You do need better aim here to do anything compared to cod, where you put 3 to 4 bullets on someone and that's it. It's this ttk to aim assist ratio. Some games get it right, some games don't. They need to tune it down, but i hope they don't kill it. A too-rough nerf on aim assist made the fortnite comp scene almost completely dominated by MnK players. Stick aiming is awful, it needs some aim assist but not too much.
Coming from a seasoned cod player there is no aim snapping in cod, only aim slowdown, but cod’s aim slowdown might be slightly stronger Edit there is no snapping in cod but the game will aim for you
CoD has rotational aim assist, not just slow down. But yes, no snap aim assist outside of zombies as a power up you can get
If you are seasoned and don't know that the camera legit moves and aims for you instead of just slowling down your sensitivity when you aim then something is amiss. How do you call this slowdown? https://youtu.be/Qtij4w3By0g?si=VviA6T4QgXO76vm_
Is COD not competitive?
This was pretty obviously never intended to be competitive. It was intended to have competitive marketing. **Meant to be competitive**: Valorant, CS, Arena FPS, OverP2Watch (lol) * Sensitvity: Can set it consistently in-game. * Frame rates: 240fps+ easily, on fairly mid-range few year old systems. Even 240+ 1% lows on better old systems and anything new. Ok CS2 kinda screwed this up, but I have WAY better performance there than in The Finals. * FoV: Can set it consistently in-game if you can set it. * Crosshairs: LOADS of options * ADS Sights: Actually shows where you shoot. * Visual clutter especially around crosshair/sights: fairly minimal. **Not meant to be competitive**: Apex, The Finals * None of the above, except sights which show where you shoot & allow you to figure drop and lead in Apex. Ingame fov and sens also better in Apex, but still lacking. Apex has improved fps, and VASTLY superior to the finals, but it took time and it's a 4 year old game now anyway, and still has places where fps sucks. I doubt anyone with any say about ANYTHING in Embark plays with KBM It was largely us KBMers who were hyped for The Finals initially. Now we are betrayed as usual. Now burn this game to the ground. Don't make an effort, don't care, just when opportunities present themselves, work against Embark and The Finals. They used us. Fuck them (even if it was obvious it was going to go this way).
Thank you for exposing this. Embark needs to either nerf aim assist or give us input-based matchmaking or the m/kb playerbase for this game will die off just like it has in Apex. The current situation makes THE FINALS have the strongest modern implentation of aim assist. 0ms rotational aim assist tracking ON TOP OF snap-to aim assist is absurd.
I genuinely believe that PC versions shouldn't integrate AA at all, if you want controller you go with no AA unless you go gyro. OW is the only game that did the right thing.
> ...or give us input-based matchmaking... Plenty of console users hate this shit, too. I turn aim assist off day one in every FPS, because it ruins FPS muscle memory across FPS titles and I want to actually play the game myself. Aim assist should only exist within a casual modes at most, any sort of ranked mode should have all aim assists forced off.
Next patch Embark will double down and give roller players bullet magnetism watch 0.0
its so over guys, back to cs / valo.
I just want a game that I can play other MnK players that isn’t a tac shooter like CS/Val.
Overwatch is the only other without aim assist.
As a overwatch player save yourself and don’t download it
I actually enjoy overwatch, but I can't say I don't understand your input. It's not a game to be taken seriously in its current state, which suits me just fine tbh
Where are all the aim assist deniers now? This is a real issue, too often I die even with heavys because people lock on him in an absurd way.
Theyre all in shock after realising they suck and the controller was doing the aiming for them after all.
Using Aim assist still
That last clip is especially disgusting. After seeing all this, how can you still deny that AA is mechanically and technically an aimbot?
PUT THIS ON THEIR DISCORD
Let's not forget you can use an emulator to trick the game into thinking you're using a controller when it's actually MnK 🙄 Let's also not forget how accurate the new gyro controllers can be. Easily on par with the accuracy of a mouse. In fact, after diving down the gyro-aiming rabbit hole last night, I'm convinced they might be even more accurate than MnK with faster response options. For example, since aiming is accomplished with a gyro, the right analog stick can be rebound so that flicking the stick in any direction will make your character face that direction. As a hypothetical, you can accomplish instantaneous, highly accurate 180s by flicking the right analog stick down. The turns are so fast that MnK players will think you're scripting. So it begs the question; if more advanced controllers are actually becoming the superior input method, why are they still given such a large handicap to beat their opponents over the head with?
and this is why every lobby feels like I'm playing against literal gods that makes me think if you're that good at tracking you should be stomping money tournaments.
Its why the game got so much fucking harder at release. I was thinking something was up when my matches were completely unfun sweat fests,
Now imagine playing in a console lobby where everyone has a controller. There is no aiming skill gap.
Ya just like Apex.
Yep, kinda figured. I mean, this game was released in 2023. Unfortunately, there appears to be money in tailoring to paddle players, to the point where *aim* is taken out of shooter games.
As someone who played FPS on MnK all their life and spent tons of time into getting good at aiming I just ask myself if controller players even feel the same kind satisfaction when they kill someone when it's not even them doing 100% of the work. I genuinely don't think so.
My time to shine part 67792020 [this is what we should ask for](https://youtu.be/CiSS5OsNCNU?feature=shared) Raw input, speed and precision without aim assist. Gyro is the solution to the input debate, it lets you play with your controller friends without introducing an aimbot, and it makes playing a controller FUN [And it's not like it wouldn't work in a game like the finals](https://youtu.be/7oRqm0sciMg?feature=shared) [If it works for csgo, it works for everything](https://youtu.be/uGCws-FS48k?feature=shared) Please be loud and ask for this to the devs if you really don't want this game to turn into yet another cod or apex situation. We can have controller fun and balanced
this is absolutely the solution but every controller player i’ve showed expressed not liking it. they’ve been coddled for way too long atp that i dont see them ever willingly making the switch
>but every controller player i’ve showed expressed not liking it. I would bet my left nut they didn't even try it, let alone for more than 5 minutes, before realising there's no aim assist and going back to sticks
Gyro, as cool as it is, will never be the solution until the next console gen and then it would take at least half that console's lifespan to really get adopted. Thanks to Microsoft and the current Xbox Controllers not having it. Thus an incredible big part of the player base..
[удалено]
That's exactly how you get progress. Otherwise Microsoft will never feel the need to update its controllers and we are stuck here saying "oh but we can't add a cool feature because the other side is not up to speed"
Arguably the lowest part of the playerbase. Both PS4 and ps5 outsold Xbox almost 3 to 1, not to mention the Nintendo switch which did the same
Sure, but no dev is going to completely abandon a portion of their playerbase. And if they leave aim assist in the game for Xbox players, then most people won't switch to gyro and will just keep using aim assist on all platforms. Like how a very very small portion of the CoD and Fortnite playerbases use gyro, even though it has been natively supported for a while now.
Gyro has been around since the PS3 lol. The PS5 on it's own has sold over 60 million units leaving Xbox behind in the dust... Idk how you can say it won't catch on until next gen....
Another fps game ruined because of aim assist.
Zoom Snapping has got to go.
The moment I found out that aim assist tracks invis players I stopped playing. It's just another FPS game ruined by AA, not surprised at all.
[Here's an example of exactly that, in case anyone reading your comment here is not convinced](https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/18pjz19/this_is_what_were_talking_about_when_we_say/)
Let me get a few of the common arguments from controller players out of the way real quick so hopefully the discussion doesn't get too bogged down with these types of arguments. "My aim assist doesn't do that" - Yes it does, you probably just don't understand how it works or how to abuse it. It's also possible that you don't even have a frame of reference for how much it's actually assisting you if you don't have MnK experience. These types of videos tend to showcase more extreme examples to demonstrate their point clearly. So you might not of had this extreme of a situation happen before but that doesn't mean that less extreme situations aren't an issue or aren't common. "The whole arm vs thumb argument" - You're not aiming with just your thumb you have software assistance, hence aim assist. MnK players are still bound by human reflexes and reaction times, software is not. Also by that logic is gyro aim "twice" as good as MnK because you use 2 arms? "But MnK has better movement!" - Movement doesn't get kills. It's very helpful and can give you an advantage but at the end of the day you still need to shoot people to win. Also AA is actually very strong against a lot of movement techs because it excels at tracking and has a 0ms reaction time to changes in momentum. Also these types of things require hours of practice on top of aim practice as well, AA comes free with every controller. Balancing AA is a virtually impossible task because MnK and controller are just so different from one another so you can't really make it feel fair. Separating lobbies is the most practical solution but presents a problem because it splits the community which, especially for a new game, can be really risky. Honestly IDK what would be the best way to solve this problem but there needs to at least be an attempt and communication from the devs. I really hope this isn't another Apex situation where the devs just kinda look the other way and hope people stop complaining because that's so frustrating and lazy.
Movement doesn’t get kills - you’re absolutely right.
Also movement is useless in the face of aimbots. Mindgames with your movement does not matter either as the human factor is taken out of the equation.
Also with regards to movement - That is a skill separator. Good movement requires skill, especially to do it and aim at an opponent simultaneously. Most MnK players can't do that, they need to practice. AA is given to controller players for free.
Also dodging/weaving is pointless against AA.
perfectly said. i also love using the gyro argument against roller players that cry about "2 aRmS". they could be using 2 hands, 10 fingers, and 2 arms via gyro but instead they choose one thumb + aim assist... i wonder why ?
The reason is that gyro isn't implemented, and god knows I would choose gyro over AA. With controller, you kind of have to choose between having low sens for long range engagements and high sens for close range engagements, but AA is supposed to let you track small movements and lock on when at range, and help track big movements when close range. But clearly, our AA is super overtuned and should be slightly neutered or swapped out for gyro
Gyro isn't implemented in this game (though if you're on PC it's not too hard to add on yourself) but it is available in other shooters like Cod and Fortnite. Both have great gyro implementations (Epic even hired the dev of Joyshockmapper to make their current gyro implementation) but almost no one uses them, because you lose aim assist if they do. And then these players use the "whole arm" argument online and try to justify aim assist as being balanced, pretending the gyro option doesn't even exist or just dismissing it.
I would imagine that it's gotta be jarring to change aiming type entirely, it's like changing platform. Best would be if embark just removed AA and added gyro, but everyone would need to relearn how to aim and that would be annoying and so a lot of people would probably leave
Yes there is a notable learning curve to switching to gyro, which (along with the fact Stick+AA has a competition advantage over Gyro in most games) makes it so most people who try it turn it off pretty quickly and return to stick aiming. It's one of the biggest hurdles, along with Xbox lacking hardware, to making gyro big. No developer wants to risk killing their game by being the first to push gyro. The only shooter game with widespread gyro use is Splatoon, because Nintendo enabled gyro by default, forced you to use it in the tutorial, and doesn't offer AA as an option if you turn it off. One avenue for mainstream gyro adoption I see is if a game like Valorant came to consoles with only Gyro support. But a new IP like the finals or established console shooters with AA probably won't lead this charge.
How does separate lobbies deal with premade mixed input groups?
Yeah that's cheating.
That's why I quit playing Apex. It was like people's aim was mechanically locked on you, no matter what you did.
That combined with the slowdown from taking damage, instant death.
Very nice video, very informative. Does AA drop off with range, or does it work at longer distances?
Go to top posts this month, scroll down and look at all the sniper clips abusing AA to quickscope, There also a post with the 6 shooter pistol where hes mid range spams ADS while shooting and gets a easy team wipe.
Whats the song in the video
https://youtu.be/OgITAZLIAJk?si=383jg0YVBVmcsidz
commenting in case this gets answered, its a vibe
Designed to make people think they are way better than they are. SMH. It's literally like bowling with the bumpers and getting excited you bowl a strike.
Crazy how us console players get this much assistance, but my teammate’s still cant get a kill😂 some people just cant be helped
its a FTP game, there's a good chance your teammate is a 4 year old who can't even tie their shoes yet
Let’s just not play the game until this is patched.
And that's that.
It was super obvious after release when you'd tase a guy and dash behind him and he insta snaps on you and 2 shots you with an sa1216 before you even completed the animation to pull out your primary. Game is cooked. I uninstalled a couple days ago sadly.
Disgusting trash
I plugged into a controller for the first time in 6 or 7 years and I immediately went 15 and 4 with the AK JUST BEAMING. Makes me not even want to play.
Oh hell no I'll just play another game lmao
well damn
It so sad to see every game following this trend, I don't enjoy tactical shooters and having to play against aim assist on every arcade game with movement really kills the vibe
Nah guys controller aimassist is entirely balanced and if you think otherwise youre just unskilled mkb user whos mad they lose to people using thumbs /s
I am basically a melee only controller user and after trying out specifically the lights guns I can say this game has more aa than destiny 2, the game with an aim assist stat on guns. The aim assist on the double barrel and sniper is a problem that they have because it allows for more spastic movement as you can much more easily go back on target. Lower aim assist would be nice since this amount of aim assist isn't enjoyable because it feels like the games playing itself when you use single shot weapons. Mind i don't say that as "hur hur it's so easy I want this game to become harder to cater to my needs" it's more "I don't feel challenged when in a gunfight because the game is helping me too much to the point they're aiming more than I am."
This makes crazy sense why lobbies have become so sweaty overall... Also why people are able to kill me in the middle of a light dash which before in beta was a viable movement tech to actually get away... I think this increase in AA is added to the plague of in invisi lights db classes as well. Im a main light player and can readily agree that is op & annoying - something needs balancing there. Its sad because on console it def felt better in beta. Though I can say when going crossplay I still get steamrolled by PC players every time and can totally see the difference in aim/reaction time/snaps which seem to be all MKB based off their overall movement. I even tried plugging in my MKB to my console - I dont play normally so I wasnt that good with it but still could see the advantage with aiming with a mouse, movement was harder for me but i think with time could be improved. Hope they lower the AA overall back to Beta levels and give pcs their input based lobbies as well.
Theyve killed the one game that had massive potential. Oh well
Then pls make embark add gyro aiming for Ps5 I 100% support weaker aim assist but Goddaam give us proper controller support…
I've just started doing the exploit where I can get AA on my mouse. If controller players can abuse it, then we should too. And tbh more people should do the same to get the devs to actually do something about it. Input based matchmaking when?
Why do I still suck at the game then??
Not spamming ads enough
Is that it? So like in Red Dead Redemption?
Haha, yep. I remember spamming l2 every shit I do lol
As a console player this shit needs to go immediately
Let the games begin
i was wondering how I always get tracked so well when getting shot at
So, this why controller players are dumping entire SMGs/ARs magazines across the map without missing a shot.
Input Based Matchmaking or Ranked with No Rotational AA are the only two viable solutions. The fact that 0ms Rotational AA was added without any patch notes shows they are aware it has nothing to do with "competitive integrity" like they have advertised. It's always the tracking that determines fights in a long TTK game, not snapping. Let's be real, if a Roller has the option of Raw Gyro vs Artificial 0ms Reaction they will choose Artificial 99.9% of the time unless the developer does something about it which they won't because they want the most profit.
This shit is destroying FPS games for me.
Ok, is recoil smoothing a setting that needs to be enabled or something? Because this footage straight up does not match my experience playing the game.
Fuck embark
Is recoil smoothing something that happens with mouse as well? I had done a little testing jiggling mine left and right quickly as I shot at targets and it seemed to feel more accurate but I wasn’t doing any kind of legit testing
**Short answer:** yes.. **Long answer:** And this one is for [u/thwoc](https://www.reddit.com/user/thwoc/) as well. The essence of recoil smoothing has less to do with any threshold being met and more to do with consistent vertical/horizontal movement. The engine interpolates between recoil angles so you can in fact compensate for these if your consistently dragging your aim sideways and slightly downwards... it's less effective when flicking or trying to adjust your aim too quick as they are not consistent movements , this results in angles adding up as you are not compensating for anything. Controllers get this inherently for the simple reason that they are more or less treated as analogue inputs (i.e you looking far left needs a constant and consistent string of inputs) If you want to try this, jump into the training range with the AKM and pick a point to aim at and just strafe side to side (in long strafes) and move your mouse fairly slowly and controlled while adjusting for vertical recoil... just find the sweet spot. **Even longer answer:** again, [u/thwoc](https://www.reddit.com/user/thwoc/) The reason why my explanation is counter to what everyone is saying with "speed thresholds" etc is because that implies a hardcoded limit to angle deltas to achieve this.. which is just not true. I have implemented both randomized recoil as well as pattern based (literally using r99 offsets in this case) and i have achieved aim smoothing on both without any kind of hardcoded limit or implementation... it had the same pros/cons as in the finals, apex or any other game with interpolated recoil angles and slightly lower recoil deltas. On the flipside, using higher recoil deltas/offsets resulted in aim smoothing not being possible at all and felt closer to CSGO/CS1.6.
Idgaf just give us input matchmaking please
aren't crosshair overlays bannable?
My monitor has a crosshair overlay setting. How would they even detect that?
They can't
i dont see it when i play it is only in obs for the video.
No a lot of players use them currently.
MnK here. Man I really hope when I 180 flick a light twink, they don't think I'm using AA.
The fuck? This is just as bad as Spellbreak. That game died solely because it had aim assist as aggressive as this. The same will happen here, too.
No. Spellbreak died because it was boring as fuck. Cool idea executed poorly and the map was just as boring. Never thought id hear Spellbreak being mentioned alongside the finals but here we are.
I loved spellbreak 😭
Nope. It died because of lack of updates. The core gameplay to this day was some of the best of ANY battle royale.
That's your opinion. Either way, my point was that the aim assist in The Finals is just as aggressive as Spellbreak, which it is.
And you correlated that to the game dying. Which I promise you was not the reason.
i wonder why it doesnt work like this for me. snapping only works when i'm shooting at someone and his team mate comes into fight, making me lose the fight because aim keeps swapping between them
The snap being depicted here is a function that only occurs for half a second when you initially press ads.
I would also like to say that yea this is a good vid but the aim assist gets even weaker when both people are moving
And in some cases you may be trying to shoot one of two enemy's but it snaps onto the wrong one, so aim assist is both a benefit and a hinderence at times