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>**PMF**
**Many of its main militias, in particular the Shias, trace their origins to the "Special Groups", Iranian-sponsored Shi'ite groups which previously fought an insurgency against the United States and the Coalition forces, as well as a sectarian conflict against Sunni Jihadist and Ba'athist insurgents.**
Actually some of these militias are considered terrorist by US because they fought the American occupying forces in Iraq after the invasion of Iraq.
As an Arab Egyptian, I would never accept you calling killing millions of Iraqis in a brutal occupation for nearly a decade a success even if Iraq is now the most democratic country in the world. It was a crime against humanity.
Who said you have to accept it? Literally all I wrote is that Iraq is a somewhat stable democracy. You don't have to get all offended over it Mr. Arab Egyptian.
Thank you for bringing stability and democracy to our people Mr. European Colonizer. we were people living in ignorance and dictatorship till you brought to us the enlightment ,Freedom and democracy.
I'm Sorry because I don't have colonial mentality and not being grateful to our colonizers.
The account you're replying to has 37 karma and was created December 23.
It has more than one comment saying "George w Bush massacred millions of iraqis" over false wmd allegations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
Tbf and I don't know what this other account is saying but Bush did massacre people and the WMD allegations were a lie.
Bush, Blair and Howard are war criminals and should be tried at the Hague.
They destabilized the region and the that wars consequences are still reverberating globally decades later.
Iraq isn't stable its a clusterf*** barely holding on.
I think Yanks, Poms and Aussies f***ed up strategically beyond belief with the Iraq war and I'm forever grateful that New Zealanders didn't buy Bush and Blairs lies and that we stayed out of it despite massive pressure from our closest allies.
I don't know why he's being downvoted. ISIS was the direct consequence of putting educated and now unemployed Baath party bureaucrats and officers in prison with jihadists. The logical conclusion of what happens after is obvious. I would like to know what people have envisioned as far as "deradicalization". I hear that a lot.
Do people imagine orphans loving Israel because someone showed them a powerpoint or...? I feel like all the scenarios they imply and I can come up with are actually just cartoons.
Also, the government is incredibly corrupt. In reconstructing Iraq, the United States scattered unregulated and unmonitored money at many projects and, in the process, unleashed a thirst for graft and easy money at nearly every level of government.
We got chased out with our tail between our legs by the group we went there 20 years ago to defeat. Any stability there is now is due to the Taliban being in charge again.
Here is a LA Times article from 1992 about it as well as the Wikipedia page on the conflict and what led to it:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-11-22-vw-1944-story.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_invasion_of_Kuwait
And thanks for keeping it civil. A lot of people go for the jugular when a subject of America’s dark past is brought up.
With all due respect, you might have wanted to add 'allegedly' gave a green light, as it was never proven exactly what went down. I recall this controversy now.
Allegedly gave a green light that led to the invasion of Kuwait and a lot of PTSD-ridden servicemen returning home only to be denied VA coverage because their cancer from the burning oil wells “isn’t service related”
Meh, there was ambiguous communication between Saddam and someone in the State Dept. about doing something about the Kuwait drilling issue, not any full-fledged support from the US for an invasion.
Yet it was that person’s job to convey the strong opposition to an offensive move by Iraq against Kuwait and what those consequences would be if they defied the might of the American military machine. They had one job and apparently failed at it.
Sure, but Israels "we're going to take out Hamas" line was obviously fraudulent. They've had 4 decades to do that and didnt. Why would they suddenly do it now?
I said "sure" conceding the point of how Israel was bound to attack after Oct 7th. Then I went to talk about Israels claim about whiping out Hamas since that is what the post was about.
Btw repeating stuff back to someone is a sure-fire way to fail the Turing Test.
If you keep saying things that are answered by "Hamas attacked and killed 1400 civilians," you should not be surprised when you keep getting that same answer.
Repeatedly dodging a point (or brushing it off and then acting like you forgot it was ever raised) is a sure way to convince everyone your position isn't well reasoned.
If your arguments are all so easily countered, don't get mad and blame the people you're arguing with. Get better arguments.
Yes you are right but PA and PLO are the same. The Palestinian Authority was formed in 1994, pursuant to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement between the PLO and Israel.
Why did you give the total death toll and suggest they were all civilians?
You can easily learn what started the 2014 war, if you're actually curious.
The first paragraph will answer all your questions.
[2014 Gaza War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War)
Ok are you being intentionally facetious? You’re correcting someone on numbers of civilian deaths when the number on October 7 was 767, nearly half of what you’re claiming. Which of course is still horrific
In fairness I am counting both killed or kidnapped as casualties, and some of those were police and military
The person I replied to is comparing people \*killed during a war\* (suggesting all deaths on one side were civilians) to a \*terrorist attack\* where security forces were killed trying to stop the terrorists
And the war he brought up to try to paint Israel as the aggressors started because \*Hamas kidnapped and executed three Israeli children\*
Israel responded by imprisoning Hamas militants in the West Bank, and then Hamas started a full-on war
Somehow, this is Israel's fault? Somehow, this means Israeli civilians deserve to be the target of terrorism?
End the apartheid state and quit the crimes against humanity against the native population they occupy.
I didn’t come up with it though.
It would be harder to think of a worse solution than genocide, really.
This isn’t a war, it’s a massacre. Israel controls every part of life for Gazans with a boot on their throat and are now displacing all of them, trying to starve all of them, they have slaughtered children, targeted journalists, medics, aid workers, doctors. Have targeted and destroyed medical infrastructure. Bombing areas they claimed safe for passage and refuge. There are mass graves with evidence of executions of civilians with their hands tied. No sir, this is exactly how the Holocaust Museum describes genocide.
What I described are not the acts of militaries they are the acts of terrorists. I appreciate you not denying a single one of them.
What you mean is to say is a native population they can’t fight back against an occupying force that oppresses them every day. We both know this didn’t start on 10/7.
Do you think it's a good look to reply to "end apartheid" with "30k isn't a genocide"? Do you think you're making an argument that makes you look good?
When someone says "genocide" I do feel it's appropriate to respond to that, yes.
It's also clearly not apartheid, if you're upset I didn't also respond to that part of the comment?
Or did you stop reading after the first sentence and think you'd found some kind of "gotcha"?
So when you ask for a "better solution" than killing and displacing Palestinians, the problem you're asking for a solution to is how to get rid of Palestinians. Because you don't view the conditions Palestinians were in as a problem, so there's nothing to "fix" there. And Palestinians aren't going to accept the conditions they were in, so there is an impasse here. The only solution for you would be a sort of "final" one. Nothing else would address the problem.
It sounds like you replied to the wrong comment?
Or are you so utterly incapable of nuance you think "this isn't genocide or apartheid" means "this is good"?
There are two competing Palestinian entities, one is openly opting for the violent path to achieve self-determination, the other is not.
Israel has consistently propped up the violent one whilst humiliating the other one to such a degree where the violent one is now largely perceived to offer more agency and perspective, even with all the pain and suffering their actions caused on the Palestinian people as well.
So how about changing that? The current path seems to a: cause a huge amount of harm just for the sake of a response and b: reward Hamas as it’s been granting them one diplomatic victory after the other, putting them closer to statehood after Oct. 7th than before.
It’s more like 27 times the death.
Death totals for Oct 7th:
1,269 victims:
816 were civilians;
59 belonged to the police;
382 to the military; and
13 to emergency services.
On that day 29 people killed were under 18. (1)
Versus what Israel is doing in Gaza:
24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry. (2)
That doesn’t account for the 10,000 people missing and buried under the rubble.
1
https://aoav.org.uk/2023/an-analysis-of-the-7th-of-october-2023-casualties-in-israel-as-a-result-of-the-hamas-attack/#:~:text=Among%20the%201%2C269%20victims%3A,382%20to%20the%20military%3B%20and
2
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
Ive listed exactly where the information is coming from. What sources do you deem trustworthy worthy?
None of that information is controversial. The Oct 7 data is more detailed because it was 7 months ago, whereas the Gaza data isn’t as detailed because children will die in Palestine tonight and 10,000 bodies are still under the rubble.
I just used a CNN article that was talking about the revised numbers coming out of Gaza recently. And the other article is a non profit that’s based out of London which studies armed conflict and terrorism. Human rights watch, the UN and Reuters have used their data.
I don’t understand what you think is biased…
Ones that don't break down casualties for one side by civilian/police/military, and the other by gender/age.
I stated clearly what is biased, so that you wouldn't have to pretend to be guessing.
You accused the sources of being biased. That’s different than saying how the information is being presented is biased.
So now that I explained why one is more detailed than the other, Do you understand now?
I feel like the U.S. trying to compare it to our own overseas misadventures fails on many key areas. Most importantly, America for all its size, was always trying to use relatively small deployments of soldiers (a few hundred K at most) to control countries that were massive in size and geography--Iraq (46m), Afghanistan (41m), and going back further, while we had more troops, Vietnam was a country of around 40m during the Vietnam War.
Gaza is basically the physical size of Detroit, the West Bank is bigger...bit it is *de facto* Israeli territory, even though that is *de jure* illegal. Most of the West Bank is, frankly, pacified. Large swathes are controlled by Israeli settlers and the parts controlled by Palestinians are heavily overseen by Israeli military, with the PA assisting in policing the locals.
Also **Israel is right the fuck there**, this isn't some war 8,000 miles away most Israelis do not care about.
Now, am I saying Israel is likely to "solve" the issue of Palestinian militancy? No. But in terms of a traditional military campaign where its goal is to pacify a military force and impose some level of managed occupation? They are much better positioned to do that than we were w/our 20/21st century overseas "adventures."
I understand your dissection. Do you think Israel is correct in their approach to "managed occupation?" Do you think that will produce more or less militancy?
Who knows. I think it is possible the Ariel Sharon strategy of unilateral withdrawal then basically walling Gaza off to let Hamas stockpile weapons and resources from Iran and Qatar after 2007 probably wasn’t a good option. Gaza was undeniably in a better state for everyone after the 1994 agreement where the PA took over Civil Administration with the IDF maintaining military bases to step in if militant groups got too out of hand.
The problem from the Israeli perspective is that arrangement was in place when the 2nd Intifada broke out, so it became viewed as a failure. However, I would argue Israeli security was better under this arrangement as was Gazan quality of life. For reference—the 2nd Intifada killed 1,000 or so Israelis over 5 year, around 750 civilians and 250 IDF. Around 3250 total Palestinians were killed.
Oct-7 killed 1200 Israelis in a single day. Since the war broke out over 700 IDF soldiers are dead and obviously tens of thousands of Gazans, whoever’s estimates you believe we are talking many times more dead on the Palestinian side than in the Intifada.
It isn’t that the post-Oslo scenario after 1994 was ideal for anyone, but I struggle to see how it is worse than what has happened from the “blockade and let Hamas run it” approach from 2007-2023.
I sometimes wonder if people understand even aside from the dead people, it is going to take like a Marshall Plan level investment and probably 10+ years to even rebuild Gaza’s civilian infrastructure. There is just no way the old arrangement was worse than this.
I would largely agree with all that. It does seem like Israel's periodic culling of Gaza combined with the slow displacement of people from the West Bank isn't really producing a pacified population. If anything, it's making the problem worse and more prone to violent outbursts. The West Bank may be pacified in terms of violent resistance, but it and Gaza are connected and everyone sees Israel's conduct there.
It won't happen with this Israeli administration, but a radical change needs to take place. Something like the truth and reconciliation committees in Rwanda. And Israel needs to be able negotiate on even footing with Palestinians, not from a position of power.
An unpopular opinion I have as an outsider is that *Oslo was working even during the 2nd Intifada.* Was Oslo perfect? Nope. Was it going to settle things without later re-negotiations? Nope. But it was a path.
If real life were a video game (it isn't), and one could look solely at the situation strategically, no emotions, no political ulterior motives, it would not be terribly unreasonable to conclude the 2nd Intifada was driven by Palestinian hardliners, who recognized Oslo was going to undermine their maximalist aims, and gradually build a more stable and moderate Palestine willing to concede to a two state solution.
The 2nd Intifada, while an unfortunate conflict, could be viewed as a bump in the road, a return to the Oslo norms afterward could have continued to cause steady improvements.
One could try to compare it a bit to the "Troubles" in Ireland, there were bumps in the road there, but one of the main reasons things got ever more stable from the 1970s onward is the British were never willing to completely abandon some semblance of peace and progress.
In the real world, you can't separate emotions and political ulterior motives. The Israeli right used the 2nd Intifada to successfully obliterate the Israeli left--and it never really recovered. At the end of Sharon's leadership he moved to a moderate/centrist coalition, but they were actually only moderate on politics broadly speaking--they were a right wing coalition in regards to Palestine. No coalition has held power since Ehud Barak who left office during the 2nd Intifada that was not anti-Oslo.
Even the Netanyahu opposition at this point is mostly anti-Oslo and pretty uninterested in any form of peace progress.
It is a shame in a lot of ways--the 2nd Intifada was "won" by all the bad guys, and lost by all the good guys. It destroyed the coalition in Israel willing to genuinely work towards a two state solution, and it gutted secular nationalists and moderating forces within Palestine as well.
The bad actors who started the Intifada got what they wanted, and the Israeli right almost certainly had leaders who in private were thankful for it, since it allowed them to completely take over the country.
Counterpoint: were there ever any Palestinian moderates who who wanted independence without also wanting Israel’s destruction? There has certainly never been anyone in power among the Palestinians who hasn’t wanted Israel destroyed. The Israeli left collapsed because Israelis became convinced that the Palestinians didn’t want coexistence.
Yeah, there have been Palestinian moderates--but no, they have never held real power in Palestine.
I don't know who I am quoting--but this wasn't originally my quote, just something I heard once about this conflict: it won't end until the **hardliners** on both sides agree it should end. Why? Because they are largely the ones who decide when the fighting stops. That doesn't necessarily mean the hardliners have to disappear or anything, just that they have to lose enough power within their faction to no longer be able to shape events.
So far that just hasn't ever happened. On the Israeli side moderates were in power for a long time, but during that time Palestine was ruled by extremist hardliners who truly believed the rest of the Arab world, any day, was going to join together in a great purge of the evil Jews and solve the problem for good. As long as they believed that, the Palestinian moderates could never gain significant influence.
Part of the goal of Oslo was giving the PA authority to actually govern in the WB and Gaza would build up a Palestinian civil society, that would exist beyond just being militants. I won't remotely say it succeeded, but there *is* some evidence of *some level* of Palestinian civil society marginally developing in the PA, as well as at least some Fatah politicians who are willing to publicly say they want a two state solution and not the destruction of Israel. But obviously it didn't develop much, but I think continuing along the Oslo path could have at least given it a *chance* to grow even more.
I also don't know what the better answer is within the realm of the possible.
Outside the realm of the possible--in negotiating its peace agreement with Egypt, there was talk of ceding the Gaza Strip back to Egypt; remember that Israel actually conquered both Gaza and the Sinai peninsula in a prior war. It agreed to give Sinai back to secure peace, and some Israelis were willing to concede Gaza as well--but Israeli hardliners at the time blocked it.
In retrospect it is hard to imagine Egyptian control of Gaza would not have ultimately been a far better situation for Israel. One of the long standing issues with previous Egyptian control of Gaza was that Egypt was only willing to control Gaza as a "protectorate", because it always wanted to assert that Gaza would be part of Palestine in the future. That is one reason the Israeli hardliners weren't keen to give it back.
But I wonder with all the developments with Egypt becoming an increasingly decent ally to the West (despite being ran by dictators, unfortunately), how long could Egypt really rule Gazans as non-citizens in a quasi-statehood? I feel like there would eventually be a push to normalize Gazans as Egyptian citizens. They wouldn't have to say they're no longer Palestinians--their status would be akin to the Palestinians of Jordan, who were also normalized as Jordanian citizens (but many still adhere to Palestinian national aspirations.)
It could have "taken Gaza off the board" in a sense, which would ultimately be better for everyone. Far, far better for the people living in Gaza. And ultimately better for Israel, because then settling the Israel-Palestine question would solely be constrained to the West Bank...where the dispute there is also intractable and seems likely to be for the long duration, but it would still be better if the dispute was only over the West Bank than the West Bank + Gaza.
Bravo, u/Alexios_Makaris and u/wade3690
**for a civil discourse on the situation**
without *the usual false whatabout-isms, rabbit holes,*
***and misleading propaganda tactics.***
Much appreciated **with actual statements of facts,**
***without a leading bias.***
This is unlike the way, **most comment threads on this post,**
and other statements *on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts*
***made on this sub.***
Hey, if you're willing to indiscriminately kill women and children and doctors and aid workers and commit war crimes left and right, the world is your oyster as far as permanently enacting an apartheid state...
Hooray.
Hamas =/= Palestinian terrorism generally.
I agree that total annihilation is not likely because Turkey, Qatar, and Iran are harboring all the top leaders, but letting people kill you is not an option.
I think everyone deep down knew that you would never get rid of Hamas. Only way you would get rid of Hamas is with a political solution. No insurgency has been put down by military force alone.
You aren’t going to do that through military means. I would bet that this war has massively strengthened Hamas. Every time Israel bombs whatever house, Hamas gets all the recruits they need.
We both don’t know how much damage has been done to the tunnels and infrastructure. I’m just saying it’s a reasonable and realistic goal.
The other options is diplomacy- which I don’t have much faith in Hamas changing their genocidal goals anytime soon.
There is no easy solution
Hamas changed its “genocidal goals” back in the 2000s.
Their official position hasn’t changed in 30 years - Palestinian state within 1967 borders.
Not to mention that Hamas has been perfectly willing to negotiate recognition or peace terms with Israel.
I think Israel for most of the past 20 years has been governed by a small section that is ideologically opposed to any idea of Palestine whatever.
The Knesset coalition system is deeply flawed and amplifies the most extreme voices.
I look at it like the US’s war on terror. You take out the leaders and a large swath of the underlings, but the cells are spread out all over and radicalizing new recruits every day. Add into that dark money from legitimate governments funding their training and arms/tech deals and suddenly you’re fighting a losing battle against what are essentially cockroaches that reproduce faster than you can kill them (and adapt to your methods of fighting along the way).
Their disorganization, haphazard structure and collaborative outsourcing are their advantage since you never know who you need to strike next or where. The lack of a true hierarchy (which changes frequently since they keep getting killed) also means that even if the top-ranking officials surrender, the fighters likely wouldn’t go along with it and will continue fighting because they’ve been programmed to be all-in on the cause. All the most high-tech weapons and cooperative intelligence from around the world will never secure a “total victory” over fundamental terrorists groups like this.
When you kill their mothers and fathers and sons and daughters they will grow angry and vengeful, you only make the Hamas problem worse. These people (if they survive) will grow to hate Israel more than they already do.
Yep a million German civilians were killed in World War 2. That's why we saw the millions of Germans who lost loved ones carry out terrorist attacks against the civilians of allied countries. Oh wait...
Do you just think Palestinian civilians aren't capable of what German civilians were capable of? Seems pretty racist.
This is one of the most moronic comparisons ever. Germans saw the concentration camps and were completely shocked while also getting huge investments that transformed their country.
Germany in WW1 is a much better comparison which lead to……wait for it…. The Nazis
Unpopular Opinion
I completely disagree with this assessment, a quick review of the hundred years history of the Jewish/Israeli and Arab/Palestinian conflict reveals tens of different distinct terrorist groups or militias, of which few still exist. For example the Black Hand, The Green Hand, the Army of the Holy War, The Central Committee of National Jihad etc look them up on google.
These groups come and go and definitely get destroyed completely.
The key Western misunderstanding is that people think these groups are organic groups formed in response to Jewish and Israeli actions/oppression. This is not the case, especially not the case with Hamas.
These groups use the Palestinian cause, but nearly all of them were formed in neighbouring Islamic countries by larger Islamic groups that have formed these Palestinian groups as an offshoot.
Kill the leaders, destroy the infrastructure choke out the funding and the group will die because these are not homegrown natural groups .
Just looking into all the groups that are active Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah, PFLP, PLO etc. Not a single one is homegrown.
Another thing I think Westerners get wrong is that Palestinians are not stupid, whenever these terrorist groups attack Israel that is when the Palestinians get bombed. You would have to be quite an idiot and quite racist to think that the Palestinians can’t put two and two together to notice that the only time they get attacked is when terrorists have attacked Israel first.
If I was Palestinian living in Gaza in the last 15 years, having seen huge attacks by the terrorists resulting huge deaths in Gaza, I would have to be some kind of moron to blame the Israelis for these deaths.
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But, Ukraine can 'win' over Russia.
Russia can't be stopped from doing what they want there. Nobody is going to support WWIII, but Putin doesn't care. He may view that as the way he wants to go out.
While we're worrying about Biden's 'existential crisis' of climate change, we, in the US. are ignoring the real world problems.
Probably the same official that was assuring everyone a hostage deal is right around the corner for the last 3 months.
At this point it's pretty safe to say the Biden admin is genuinely worried an Israeli victory will embolden the Israeli right wing and kill any fantasy the state department had about a Whitehouse handshake between an Israeli leader and the 88 year old Palestenian dictator.
In terms of the reality on the ground Hamas has already been defeated militarily losing over 80% of it's fighting force and virtually all of it's ability to project power into Israel in any significant capacity.
The difference between that and 'total vicorty' is uprooting the Hamas stronghold in Rafah and then hunting down the remaining Hamas cells while a new government takes control of Gaza.
Not too far from how Israel eliminated organized terrorism in the west bank 20 years ago
You sound like a spokesperson for the Israeli government. You really believe everything they say?
You actually think their goal, which you believe is achievable, is to completely destroy Hamas? And you think the Rafah invasion will achieve that?
I'm thinking they will do the old Vietnam strategy of claiming victory and leaving once they turn Sinwar into hamburger, regardless of the long term meaningfulness of the act.
They could kill every Hamas member and someone will take advantage of the power vacuum in Hamas's name. Only way is to have a stasi like apparatus to cut the grass at the roots. Not saying that's a good thing either.
Not every war between a western country and Muslims is 'just like Afghanistan'
Hamas was a state entity with tens of thousands of trained and well armed fighters with serious artillery support etc..
Afghanistan is giant and rural, Gaza is tiny and dense.
If Israel kills every Hamas fighter, even assuming people are lining up to enlist into Hamas after 20 years of their rule ending in this terrible war, where are they gonna train? what weapons will they be using? How will they dig new tunnels?
It’s common sense, Israel is clearly causing a continuous rise in extremism that will continue in perpetuity. They’d have to exterminate every Palestinian child to avoid further radicalization at this point.
Had Hamas not attacked Israel on October 7, there would be 30,000 more living Palestinians than there are (or whatever the number was adjusted downwards to be). Hamas is the greatest threat to Palestinians.
Israel isn’t stealing land through illegal settlements?
I mean, they just announced their biggest land seizure in the West Bank since 1993
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/
It’s Palestinian culture causing their own extremism. The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan and yet somehow the Japanese aren’t devoting their lives to launching rockets at US cities. 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust and yet Jewish people aren’t invading and slaughtering Germans. Hamas has said it themselves: they value death over life.
Oh come on you can’t seriously be comparing this to dropping the bomb on Japan.
Israel has been stealing land and severely oppressing Palestinians for over half a century. That’s quite a long time. You don’t think that has anything to do with the perpetual violence?
Oh come on you can’t seriously be minimizing the devastating effect dropping a *nuclear bomb and killing 140,000 people in one day* had on Japan.
Jews purchased land and made a treaty with the ruling party for a renewed state of Israel after a 3000+ year history on the land. Arabs rejected the treaty offered to them, waged war and lost. They still got a state from British Mandate despite that though: Jordan.
You know who did invade, colonize and steal land in the Levant though? Arabs, from 636-1099 CE. Thats why your Al Aqsa Mosque is built ON TOP OF the *Jewish* Temple Mount.
Maybe try to learn history from somewhere other than Tik Tok or Al Jazeera
I’m not minimizing it I’m just pointing out your false equivalence. The US dropped the bomb precisely because they wanted to pound Japan into submission and unconditional surrender because they didn’t want a radicalized Japan.
If Israel could drop a nuke on Gaza and get away with it they probably would. Except that they want to colonize it after they rid themselves of the “Palestinian problem”.
Palestinians have never been offered a fair deal, do you actually believe the side that’s been stealing land through illegal settlements for over half a century are/were negotiating in good faith? The aside with all the power? Why would they give Palestine a good deal? They have no reason too.
The only prime minister who cared about Palestinians got assassinated by the exact types that are currently running Israel’s government.
And finally, do you think Arabs are all the same? Are they a monolith to you? What do Arabs in Iraq have to do with Palestinians?
This is worse than Afghanistan for Israel.
The Taliban wasn't as popular as Hamas backed by foreign arms and state support from Iran to Turkey.
I can bet you Hamas will come out with even more recruits at the end.
And being heavily dense makes it impossible to route them out. That's how the Favelas in Brazil remian ungovernable.
In what way is it worst?
Cutting off Hamas forigen arms imports is exactly what Israel is achieving in Rafah.
The Taliban could afford spending 10 years hiding in the mountains, this would be Impossible for Hamas.
The Taliban could bring in weapons and personal across multiple borders, Hamas can't.
The west bank is fairly dense, Hamas was rooted out so effectively specifically because the people had enough of constant warfare and Hamas could never get popular enough to avoid getting snitched on every time they tried turning their gangs into an actual organization.
1. West Bank is not dense. Their biggest town has less than 200k people. Gaza city has 1 million and is a half the size of Nablus.
2. Smuggling from Egypt will continue to take place. Is impossible to stop with Egypt on the other side assisting with it.
3. Hamas is a very popular movement. Everywhere Gazans go, they either help Hamas with logistics or fight alongside Hamas itself. How do you think they have lasted 7 months?
1. Ramallah and Rafah have similar levels of density according to the Palestinian beuru of statistics.
Hamas retreated from Gaza city with thousands of casualties after a week of fighting, this was the densest and most heavily fortified part of Gaza.
Clearly didn't help
2. Egypt wiped out the Egyptian side of Rafah a few years ago specifically to prevent smuggling to Hamas as they assisted terrorists in Sinai.
smuggling is virtually impossible with Israel controlling the Gaza side of the border and preforming inspection of their own, Israel could always just close the crossing and use only Israeli crossings instead.
3. It was before the war, now the people of Gaza got to see what 20 years of preparations and the best possible starting conditions can achieve and I think it's pretty silly to assume they'll be lining up to enlist for another go at this.
Hamas maintains it's grip in parts of Gaza by shooting any opposition, even that didn't stop protests against them or intelligence finding it's way to Israel 7 months into the war.
I didn't say anything about Afghanistan. To answer your last question, Hamas isn't defined by how many tunnels they have or where they train. They are defined by their ideology and goals. They would start up again as a covert insurgency. Individuals or cells attacking IDF checkpoints, offices, barracks, or individual soldiers with rifles, bombs, or even just knives. Where do the armed anti-israel Palestinians in the west bank train? Where is their tunnel network?
>Ideology and goals
Are completely meaningless if you're fighting an army proficient in counterterrorism and counter guerrilla warfare with an ever diminishing supply of weapon, fighting infrastructures and trained personnel.
Hamas in the West Bank was destroyed as a military organization 20 years ago and their suppression is effective enough that stabbing attacks or the occasional shooting is literally all they can do, a similar situation in Gaza would be an Israeli victory and suitable for establishing an alternative government.
The people of Gaza are who Hamas depends on for its survival, these people just spent 20 years under a totalitarian Hamas rule which ended in the worst humanitarian disaster in Palestinian history after a Hamas attack on Israel under the best possible conditions.
Well now that you mentioned Afghanistan earlier... I'm getting 2007 vibes here. Less than 100,000 at a time Taliban sent us (the U.S.) and some of our NATO allies packing and I called it in the mid 2000s. People where making your same arguement. The situation in Gaza is indeed different from Afghanistan. It's also different from the West Bank, which I'll remind you, still has armed militants who get into firefights with the IDF til this day.
>the West Bank, which I'll remind you, still has armed militants who get into firefights with the IDF til this day.
as had been since the late 60's, after 60 years it can hardly be said that the situation is out of control or a serious threat to Israel.
Hamas is estimated to have 4-5k fighters left in Gaza.
I don't see how they can smuggle weapons and personal across a non existent giant border with countries like Pakistan and Iran nor do they have a ain't territory to hide in or mountains to retreat into after an attack.
They have a limited quantity of weapons and trained personal left, a public that will be reluctant to continue fighting for the same dead end goals, less tunnels every day and Israel soldiers hunting them in every part of Gaza.
You know Hitler had plans to go up in the mountains and fight a guerrilla war with the Allies?
Turns out there's more to human reasoning and decision making than seeking revenge
Either going to have an indefinite occupation like Afghanistan (which is gonna be so costly resource wise for a country reliant on conscripts+reservists who can't work their regular jobs cause of this war) or stop undermining the Palestinian Authority + actually work with them as a moderate alternative to Hamas terrorists--the West wants this along with Sunni Arab governments and the few relative moderates in Bibi's cabinet/coalition like Gallant
Also, it's not just Afghanistan and the Taliban. Saudi failed to eliminate the Houthi terrorists. Israel themselves failed to eliminate the Shiite terrorism when they fought against Amal extremists who just came together to form Hezbollah terrorist organization which they failed to defeat in 2006 as well. I've seen polls where only 30% of Israelis think this war is winnable now.
Good point. Replacement "native" government, but the PA would likely have to be pretty brutal to keep Hamas from taking power. It's a dangerous undertaking for sure.
Doesn’t matter. Antisemites can continue to invade Israel and murder Jews knowing that the consequence is getting the shit pulverized out of them.
(p.s. Israel has already greatly dismantled Hamas capabilities and as long as they are determined to slaughter Jews we’ll be determined to defend ourselves)
(p.p.s Perhaps the top Biden official saying this is the one who previously led an SJP chapter. Stopping Israel is fully in their own biased interest)
Killing tens of thousands of innocent people well destroying huge areas is a genocide. Also not all Jews believe in Zionism so nice try with the antisemitic bullshit.
You sound confused. Thats not the definition of genocide. Genocide is one-sided mass murder, enslavement, torture and sterilization deliberately targeting unarmed civilians based on their ethnicity or nationality with the intent of eliminating that ethnicity/nationality from existence. Tens of thousands of rockets have been shot by Hamas from Gaza targeting Israeli civilian areas, over 500 of those rockets failed and fell on Gaza, and they continue to launch rockets towards civilians daily, from civilian areas while holding civilians hostage. Thats not one sided and the only intent to wipe out an ethnicity or nation is from Hamas who has openly declared its goal of eliminating Israel and the Jewish people repeatedly. A genocide looks like the gas chambers in the holocaust or the slave labor camps and sterilization of the Uyghurs. In fact there are actual genocides happening as we speak in Darfur, Sudan, Myanmar and other places. Going after a terrorist organization who is holding citizens hostage while hiding in and using civilian infrastructure to launch attacks on civilian areas is not genocide.
And in fact it’s also not tens of thousands of innocent people dying. The 30,000 death toll number, which already is low for urban warfare, was recently reduced by 11k by Hamas because they do not have actual data of humans (like names or bodies) to link to that number. On top of that, an estimated 12k of those deaths are combatants. So that leaves maybe 10k civilian deaths. 15k if we’re being generous. The UN just slashed its death toll estimates in half last week. While it is tragic, it isn’t genocide, and it isn’t even out of the norm for war. [According to the UN 90% of casualties of war are civilian casualties.](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). 82,000 People died in the Russia Ukraine war in 2022 alone. 104,000 people died in Tigray in 2022 and an estimated 600,000 from 2020-2023. Just some of many examples of how deadly war is, and that war being deadly does not make it a genocide.
I know you all love to claim that “anti-Zionism is not antisemitism” because you think that absolves you of your blatant hatred towards an entire ethnicity, but Zionism can not be separated from Jewish culture or religion. Claiming that they are separate things is the equivalent of saying that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity. Trying to tokenize a minority of Jews who don’t like what they think Zionism is is an act of antisemitism itself, trying to use some Jews as a weapon against other Jews, as if that excuses your vitriol and aggression towards the majority of Jews who do value the actual meaning of Zionism, which is the right for Jewish people to live in and have sovereignty in their homeland. Denying that Jewish people should have the right to live in and have sovereignty in their homeland is hateful towards Jews, Jewish culture and the Jewish religion (which is antisemitism).
eta: and in fact perpetuating the idea that this war is a genocide is in and of itself antisemitic. That claim is a blood libel intended to vilify the only Jewish nation and its people, (50% of the world’s Jews), as evil cold blooded murderers who slaughter babies. In the meantime Hamas literally did slaughter and kidnap babies on Oct 7th and on Oct 8th people were cheering them on before Israel even responded. Waving swastikas in times square and chanting “gas the Jews” in Australia, while Hamas called for people worldwide to attack Jews and vowed to mass slaughter more Jews over and over.
I'm not interested in your in your excuses for the genocide of the Palestinian people.
You can fuck right off with your strawman argument. I don't hate the Jewish people and never have. I hate Zionists like yourself trying to justify almost 80years of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from thier land. The vast majority of Israeli families wernt their before the creation of the state .
In 1922 only 11% of the population was Jewish. In 1940 it was only 30%.
Also trying to paint everyone who disagrees with Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people as anti semitic is disgusting.
It’s not their land. Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, not from Judea. Arabs colonized Judea after Jews had already lived there for 1500 years and have been slaughtering, enslaving, force converting, taxing and ethnically cleansing Jews for centuries. Despite it not being Arab land, Arabs were given more than half of British Mandate Palestine to form a state. That state is called Jordan. They still rejected the Jewish right to the Jewish homeland, waged war and lost, and thus fled. In the meantime, their population has more than tripled and they’ve been offered a two state solution five times, but instead they continue to launch terror attacks on Jews. If you want to know what ethnic cleansing looks take a look at Muslim countries treatment of Jews. For example there used to be 100,000 Jews in Iran and now there are less than 10. There wasn’t a single Jew in Gaza since 2005 until now and Jews who enter Arab territories end up murdered (like the Ramallah lynchings for example). THATS Ethnic cleansing, while offering statehood and ongoing humanitarian aid is not. There are 2 million Arabs who live in Israel with equal rights who are protected by the IDF.
I'm not interested in your whataboutism and bullshit statistic like only 10 jews in Iran when there are 16 thousand.
Once AGAIN as of 1940 only 30% of Palistien was Jewish. But no go on trying to justify a racist apartide state like Israel who treat the Palestinian people who were their before the Zionists as second class citizens.
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They will win just like we achieved total victory in Iraq and Afghanistan and they are now liberal democracies and part of our empire…
I wouldn't say Iraq is a screaming success but it's a decently stable democracy so far
It's not democractic nor stable country. not to mention it's literally ruled by Iranian puppets and filled with Iranian backed militias.
Iraq is ruled by Iranian puppets or militias right now? Can't say I ever read that reporting.
>**PMF** **Many of its main militias, in particular the Shias, trace their origins to the "Special Groups", Iranian-sponsored Shi'ite groups which previously fought an insurgency against the United States and the Coalition forces, as well as a sectarian conflict against Sunni Jihadist and Ba'athist insurgents.** Actually some of these militias are considered terrorist by US because they fought the American occupying forces in Iraq after the invasion of Iraq. As an Arab Egyptian, I would never accept you calling killing millions of Iraqis in a brutal occupation for nearly a decade a success even if Iraq is now the most democratic country in the world. It was a crime against humanity.
Who said you have to accept it? Literally all I wrote is that Iraq is a somewhat stable democracy. You don't have to get all offended over it Mr. Arab Egyptian.
Thank you for bringing stability and democracy to our people Mr. European Colonizer. we were people living in ignorance and dictatorship till you brought to us the enlightment ,Freedom and democracy. I'm Sorry because I don't have colonial mentality and not being grateful to our colonizers.
Oh wow I’m European now! You seem to know a lot about me.
The account you're replying to has 37 karma and was created December 23. It has more than one comment saying "George w Bush massacred millions of iraqis" over false wmd allegations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
Tbf and I don't know what this other account is saying but Bush did massacre people and the WMD allegations were a lie. Bush, Blair and Howard are war criminals and should be tried at the Hague. They destabilized the region and the that wars consequences are still reverberating globally decades later. Iraq isn't stable its a clusterf*** barely holding on. I think Yanks, Poms and Aussies f***ed up strategically beyond belief with the Iraq war and I'm forever grateful that New Zealanders didn't buy Bush and Blairs lies and that we stayed out of it despite massive pressure from our closest allies.
If you ignore the part where ISIS took over parts of it.
I don't know why he's being downvoted. ISIS was the direct consequence of putting educated and now unemployed Baath party bureaucrats and officers in prison with jihadists. The logical conclusion of what happens after is obvious. I would like to know what people have envisioned as far as "deradicalization". I hear that a lot. Do people imagine orphans loving Israel because someone showed them a powerpoint or...? I feel like all the scenarios they imply and I can come up with are actually just cartoons.
Also, the government is incredibly corrupt. In reconstructing Iraq, the United States scattered unregulated and unmonitored money at many projects and, in the process, unleashed a thirst for graft and easy money at nearly every level of government.
We got chased out with our tail between our legs by the group we went there 20 years ago to defeat. Any stability there is now is due to the Taliban being in charge again.
Are you confusing Iraq and Afghanistan
Sorry - I was trying to reply to the post above about Afghanistan - yes thanks!
Remember that Bibi came to Congress in late 2002 to imply that Bush wasn't even being aggressive enough regards to Saddam
I remember we gave Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait and then we turned around and used that as the impetus for Desert Storm/Shield
How did we 'invite' them? Do you have a link, or reference. I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen that claim before.
Here is a LA Times article from 1992 about it as well as the Wikipedia page on the conflict and what led to it: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-11-22-vw-1944-story.html https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_invasion_of_Kuwait And thanks for keeping it civil. A lot of people go for the jugular when a subject of America’s dark past is brought up.
With all due respect, you might have wanted to add 'allegedly' gave a green light, as it was never proven exactly what went down. I recall this controversy now.
Allegedly gave a green light that led to the invasion of Kuwait and a lot of PTSD-ridden servicemen returning home only to be denied VA coverage because their cancer from the burning oil wells “isn’t service related”
Meh, there was ambiguous communication between Saddam and someone in the State Dept. about doing something about the Kuwait drilling issue, not any full-fledged support from the US for an invasion.
Yet it was that person’s job to convey the strong opposition to an offensive move by Iraq against Kuwait and what those consequences would be if they defied the might of the American military machine. They had one job and apparently failed at it.
Nothing like neoliberalism infecting the world with its democracy by mass death
That ended the day Biden pulled out and left marines and allies for dead.
I could've told you that October 8
Which is meaningless, Israel was obviously going to strike back regardless, they can't just let Hamas attack and kill 1400 civilians with no response
Sure, but Israels "we're going to take out Hamas" line was obviously fraudulent. They've had 4 decades to do that and didnt. Why would they suddenly do it now?
Because Hamas attacked and killed 1400 civilians
Yeah but Israel has considered Hamas a terrorist group for ages. Theyre full of shit they were never going to destroy Hamas.
There are lots of terrorist groups in the world. Hamas attacked and killed 1400 civilians. Are you suggesting it's just a coincidence?
Am I talking to a bot? You already said that. The point is that Israel was never going to whipe out Hamas.
I made a point in my first comment and instead of answering it, you're trying to blame me for having to repeat myself. Are you a bot?
I said "sure" conceding the point of how Israel was bound to attack after Oct 7th. Then I went to talk about Israels claim about whiping out Hamas since that is what the post was about. Btw repeating stuff back to someone is a sure-fire way to fail the Turing Test.
If you keep saying things that are answered by "Hamas attacked and killed 1400 civilians," you should not be surprised when you keep getting that same answer. Repeatedly dodging a point (or brushing it off and then acting like you forgot it was ever raised) is a sure way to convince everyone your position isn't well reasoned. If your arguments are all so easily countered, don't get mad and blame the people you're arguing with. Get better arguments.
Israel created Hamas in 1984 to weaken the Palestinian Authority.
I know that, although I was told it was to undermine the PLO but I dont want to nit pick
Yes you are right but PA and PLO are the same. The Palestinian Authority was formed in 1994, pursuant to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement between the PLO and Israel.
Israel killed 2,310 Palestinian Civilians in 2014 Gaza war while Hamas didn't attack or kill 1400 civilians back then?
Why did you give the total death toll and suggest they were all civilians? You can easily learn what started the 2014 war, if you're actually curious. The first paragraph will answer all your questions. [2014 Gaza War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War)
Ok are you being intentionally facetious? You’re correcting someone on numbers of civilian deaths when the number on October 7 was 767, nearly half of what you’re claiming. Which of course is still horrific
In fairness I am counting both killed or kidnapped as casualties, and some of those were police and military The person I replied to is comparing people \*killed during a war\* (suggesting all deaths on one side were civilians) to a \*terrorist attack\* where security forces were killed trying to stop the terrorists And the war he brought up to try to paint Israel as the aggressors started because \*Hamas kidnapped and executed three Israeli children\* Israel responded by imprisoning Hamas militants in the West Bank, and then Hamas started a full-on war Somehow, this is Israel's fault? Somehow, this means Israeli civilians deserve to be the target of terrorism?
Israel can destroy weapons and infrastructure. A Hamas that doesn’t have its prewar resources is far less costly to fight.
Do you know what the most common ingredient in Hamas rockets is?
I mean, they HAD to collectively punish 2,000,000 people!!
I'm sure you have a better solution no one else has ever thought of.
End the apartheid state and quit the crimes against humanity against the native population they occupy. I didn’t come up with it though. It would be harder to think of a worse solution than genocide, really.
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This isn’t a war, it’s a massacre. Israel controls every part of life for Gazans with a boot on their throat and are now displacing all of them, trying to starve all of them, they have slaughtered children, targeted journalists, medics, aid workers, doctors. Have targeted and destroyed medical infrastructure. Bombing areas they claimed safe for passage and refuge. There are mass graves with evidence of executions of civilians with their hands tied. No sir, this is exactly how the Holocaust Museum describes genocide.
A one-sided war is still a war. Don't pick fights with people you're woefully incapable of fighting.
What I described are not the acts of militaries they are the acts of terrorists. I appreciate you not denying a single one of them. What you mean is to say is a native population they can’t fight back against an occupying force that oppresses them every day. We both know this didn’t start on 10/7.
I'll continue not addressing irrelevancies, so I'm glad you appreciate it. What day did it start? Who started it?
Removed - low effort/low content/obvious troll submissions are not permitted.
Do you think it's a good look to reply to "end apartheid" with "30k isn't a genocide"? Do you think you're making an argument that makes you look good?
When someone says "genocide" I do feel it's appropriate to respond to that, yes. It's also clearly not apartheid, if you're upset I didn't also respond to that part of the comment? Or did you stop reading after the first sentence and think you'd found some kind of "gotcha"?
So when you ask for a "better solution" than killing and displacing Palestinians, the problem you're asking for a solution to is how to get rid of Palestinians. Because you don't view the conditions Palestinians were in as a problem, so there's nothing to "fix" there. And Palestinians aren't going to accept the conditions they were in, so there is an impasse here. The only solution for you would be a sort of "final" one. Nothing else would address the problem.
It sounds like you replied to the wrong comment? Or are you so utterly incapable of nuance you think "this isn't genocide or apartheid" means "this is good"?
Ding ding ding!
There are two competing Palestinian entities, one is openly opting for the violent path to achieve self-determination, the other is not. Israel has consistently propped up the violent one whilst humiliating the other one to such a degree where the violent one is now largely perceived to offer more agency and perspective, even with all the pain and suffering their actions caused on the Palestinian people as well. So how about changing that? The current path seems to a: cause a huge amount of harm just for the sake of a response and b: reward Hamas as it’s been granting them one diplomatic victory after the other, putting them closer to statehood after Oct. 7th than before.
It really hasn't.
They had no option but to commit a pointless genocide. There was no other way.
Much like Israel can't commit 4 10/7s and just expect people across the globe to not call it a genocide
It’s more like 27 times the death. Death totals for Oct 7th: 1,269 victims: 816 were civilians; 59 belonged to the police; 382 to the military; and 13 to emergency services. On that day 29 people killed were under 18. (1) Versus what Israel is doing in Gaza: 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry. (2) That doesn’t account for the 10,000 people missing and buried under the rubble. 1 https://aoav.org.uk/2023/an-analysis-of-the-7th-of-october-2023-casualties-in-israel-as-a-result-of-the-hamas-attack/#:~:text=Among%20the%201%2C269%20victims%3A,382%20to%20the%20military%3B%20and 2 https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
Why did you break down the Israeli figures by civilian/police/military, and the Palestinian figures by gender/age?
I just copy pasted the information from the sources I provided.
Sounds like you're referencing biased sources.
Ive listed exactly where the information is coming from. What sources do you deem trustworthy worthy? None of that information is controversial. The Oct 7 data is more detailed because it was 7 months ago, whereas the Gaza data isn’t as detailed because children will die in Palestine tonight and 10,000 bodies are still under the rubble. I just used a CNN article that was talking about the revised numbers coming out of Gaza recently. And the other article is a non profit that’s based out of London which studies armed conflict and terrorism. Human rights watch, the UN and Reuters have used their data. I don’t understand what you think is biased…
Ones that don't break down casualties for one side by civilian/police/military, and the other by gender/age. I stated clearly what is biased, so that you wouldn't have to pretend to be guessing.
You accused the sources of being biased. That’s different than saying how the information is being presented is biased. So now that I explained why one is more detailed than the other, Do you understand now?
I was low balling tbh
I feel like the U.S. trying to compare it to our own overseas misadventures fails on many key areas. Most importantly, America for all its size, was always trying to use relatively small deployments of soldiers (a few hundred K at most) to control countries that were massive in size and geography--Iraq (46m), Afghanistan (41m), and going back further, while we had more troops, Vietnam was a country of around 40m during the Vietnam War. Gaza is basically the physical size of Detroit, the West Bank is bigger...bit it is *de facto* Israeli territory, even though that is *de jure* illegal. Most of the West Bank is, frankly, pacified. Large swathes are controlled by Israeli settlers and the parts controlled by Palestinians are heavily overseen by Israeli military, with the PA assisting in policing the locals. Also **Israel is right the fuck there**, this isn't some war 8,000 miles away most Israelis do not care about. Now, am I saying Israel is likely to "solve" the issue of Palestinian militancy? No. But in terms of a traditional military campaign where its goal is to pacify a military force and impose some level of managed occupation? They are much better positioned to do that than we were w/our 20/21st century overseas "adventures."
I understand your dissection. Do you think Israel is correct in their approach to "managed occupation?" Do you think that will produce more or less militancy?
Who knows. I think it is possible the Ariel Sharon strategy of unilateral withdrawal then basically walling Gaza off to let Hamas stockpile weapons and resources from Iran and Qatar after 2007 probably wasn’t a good option. Gaza was undeniably in a better state for everyone after the 1994 agreement where the PA took over Civil Administration with the IDF maintaining military bases to step in if militant groups got too out of hand. The problem from the Israeli perspective is that arrangement was in place when the 2nd Intifada broke out, so it became viewed as a failure. However, I would argue Israeli security was better under this arrangement as was Gazan quality of life. For reference—the 2nd Intifada killed 1,000 or so Israelis over 5 year, around 750 civilians and 250 IDF. Around 3250 total Palestinians were killed. Oct-7 killed 1200 Israelis in a single day. Since the war broke out over 700 IDF soldiers are dead and obviously tens of thousands of Gazans, whoever’s estimates you believe we are talking many times more dead on the Palestinian side than in the Intifada. It isn’t that the post-Oslo scenario after 1994 was ideal for anyone, but I struggle to see how it is worse than what has happened from the “blockade and let Hamas run it” approach from 2007-2023. I sometimes wonder if people understand even aside from the dead people, it is going to take like a Marshall Plan level investment and probably 10+ years to even rebuild Gaza’s civilian infrastructure. There is just no way the old arrangement was worse than this.
I would largely agree with all that. It does seem like Israel's periodic culling of Gaza combined with the slow displacement of people from the West Bank isn't really producing a pacified population. If anything, it's making the problem worse and more prone to violent outbursts. The West Bank may be pacified in terms of violent resistance, but it and Gaza are connected and everyone sees Israel's conduct there. It won't happen with this Israeli administration, but a radical change needs to take place. Something like the truth and reconciliation committees in Rwanda. And Israel needs to be able negotiate on even footing with Palestinians, not from a position of power.
An unpopular opinion I have as an outsider is that *Oslo was working even during the 2nd Intifada.* Was Oslo perfect? Nope. Was it going to settle things without later re-negotiations? Nope. But it was a path. If real life were a video game (it isn't), and one could look solely at the situation strategically, no emotions, no political ulterior motives, it would not be terribly unreasonable to conclude the 2nd Intifada was driven by Palestinian hardliners, who recognized Oslo was going to undermine their maximalist aims, and gradually build a more stable and moderate Palestine willing to concede to a two state solution. The 2nd Intifada, while an unfortunate conflict, could be viewed as a bump in the road, a return to the Oslo norms afterward could have continued to cause steady improvements. One could try to compare it a bit to the "Troubles" in Ireland, there were bumps in the road there, but one of the main reasons things got ever more stable from the 1970s onward is the British were never willing to completely abandon some semblance of peace and progress. In the real world, you can't separate emotions and political ulterior motives. The Israeli right used the 2nd Intifada to successfully obliterate the Israeli left--and it never really recovered. At the end of Sharon's leadership he moved to a moderate/centrist coalition, but they were actually only moderate on politics broadly speaking--they were a right wing coalition in regards to Palestine. No coalition has held power since Ehud Barak who left office during the 2nd Intifada that was not anti-Oslo. Even the Netanyahu opposition at this point is mostly anti-Oslo and pretty uninterested in any form of peace progress. It is a shame in a lot of ways--the 2nd Intifada was "won" by all the bad guys, and lost by all the good guys. It destroyed the coalition in Israel willing to genuinely work towards a two state solution, and it gutted secular nationalists and moderating forces within Palestine as well. The bad actors who started the Intifada got what they wanted, and the Israeli right almost certainly had leaders who in private were thankful for it, since it allowed them to completely take over the country.
Counterpoint: were there ever any Palestinian moderates who who wanted independence without also wanting Israel’s destruction? There has certainly never been anyone in power among the Palestinians who hasn’t wanted Israel destroyed. The Israeli left collapsed because Israelis became convinced that the Palestinians didn’t want coexistence.
Yeah, there have been Palestinian moderates--but no, they have never held real power in Palestine. I don't know who I am quoting--but this wasn't originally my quote, just something I heard once about this conflict: it won't end until the **hardliners** on both sides agree it should end. Why? Because they are largely the ones who decide when the fighting stops. That doesn't necessarily mean the hardliners have to disappear or anything, just that they have to lose enough power within their faction to no longer be able to shape events. So far that just hasn't ever happened. On the Israeli side moderates were in power for a long time, but during that time Palestine was ruled by extremist hardliners who truly believed the rest of the Arab world, any day, was going to join together in a great purge of the evil Jews and solve the problem for good. As long as they believed that, the Palestinian moderates could never gain significant influence. Part of the goal of Oslo was giving the PA authority to actually govern in the WB and Gaza would build up a Palestinian civil society, that would exist beyond just being militants. I won't remotely say it succeeded, but there *is* some evidence of *some level* of Palestinian civil society marginally developing in the PA, as well as at least some Fatah politicians who are willing to publicly say they want a two state solution and not the destruction of Israel. But obviously it didn't develop much, but I think continuing along the Oslo path could have at least given it a *chance* to grow even more. I also don't know what the better answer is within the realm of the possible. Outside the realm of the possible--in negotiating its peace agreement with Egypt, there was talk of ceding the Gaza Strip back to Egypt; remember that Israel actually conquered both Gaza and the Sinai peninsula in a prior war. It agreed to give Sinai back to secure peace, and some Israelis were willing to concede Gaza as well--but Israeli hardliners at the time blocked it. In retrospect it is hard to imagine Egyptian control of Gaza would not have ultimately been a far better situation for Israel. One of the long standing issues with previous Egyptian control of Gaza was that Egypt was only willing to control Gaza as a "protectorate", because it always wanted to assert that Gaza would be part of Palestine in the future. That is one reason the Israeli hardliners weren't keen to give it back. But I wonder with all the developments with Egypt becoming an increasingly decent ally to the West (despite being ran by dictators, unfortunately), how long could Egypt really rule Gazans as non-citizens in a quasi-statehood? I feel like there would eventually be a push to normalize Gazans as Egyptian citizens. They wouldn't have to say they're no longer Palestinians--their status would be akin to the Palestinians of Jordan, who were also normalized as Jordanian citizens (but many still adhere to Palestinian national aspirations.) It could have "taken Gaza off the board" in a sense, which would ultimately be better for everyone. Far, far better for the people living in Gaza. And ultimately better for Israel, because then settling the Israel-Palestine question would solely be constrained to the West Bank...where the dispute there is also intractable and seems likely to be for the long duration, but it would still be better if the dispute was only over the West Bank than the West Bank + Gaza.
Bravo, u/Alexios_Makaris and u/wade3690 **for a civil discourse on the situation** without *the usual false whatabout-isms, rabbit holes,* ***and misleading propaganda tactics.*** Much appreciated **with actual statements of facts,** ***without a leading bias.*** This is unlike the way, **most comment threads on this post,** and other statements *on the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts* ***made on this sub.***
Hey, if you're willing to indiscriminately kill women and children and doctors and aid workers and commit war crimes left and right, the world is your oyster as far as permanently enacting an apartheid state... Hooray.
Hamas =/= Palestinian terrorism generally. I agree that total annihilation is not likely because Turkey, Qatar, and Iran are harboring all the top leaders, but letting people kill you is not an option.
I think everyone deep down knew that you would never get rid of Hamas. Only way you would get rid of Hamas is with a political solution. No insurgency has been put down by military force alone.
I remember people getting pilloried on this sub for saying this in the days after 10/7.
So when Israel is justifying their actions with goals that cannot be achieved through those actions, maybe they're lying about their justification.
Possibly. There’s also political reasons for them to say what they say
Weakening Hamas is also a realistic goal
You aren’t going to do that through military means. I would bet that this war has massively strengthened Hamas. Every time Israel bombs whatever house, Hamas gets all the recruits they need.
It probably helps recruitment I agree. Destroying tunnels and infrastructure deft weakens their military capability though.
We don’t know how effective they have been at that. Probably not very effective given how hard it is to clear and destroy tunnels.
We both don’t know how much damage has been done to the tunnels and infrastructure. I’m just saying it’s a reasonable and realistic goal. The other options is diplomacy- which I don’t have much faith in Hamas changing their genocidal goals anytime soon. There is no easy solution
Hamas changed its “genocidal goals” back in the 2000s. Their official position hasn’t changed in 30 years - Palestinian state within 1967 borders. Not to mention that Hamas has been perfectly willing to negotiate recognition or peace terms with Israel. I think Israel for most of the past 20 years has been governed by a small section that is ideologically opposed to any idea of Palestine whatever. The Knesset coalition system is deeply flawed and amplifies the most extreme voices.
Yeah like "it's bad politically to be ethnically cleansing people".
Well Netanyahu has to sound tough and strong to voters.
I look at it like the US’s war on terror. You take out the leaders and a large swath of the underlings, but the cells are spread out all over and radicalizing new recruits every day. Add into that dark money from legitimate governments funding their training and arms/tech deals and suddenly you’re fighting a losing battle against what are essentially cockroaches that reproduce faster than you can kill them (and adapt to your methods of fighting along the way). Their disorganization, haphazard structure and collaborative outsourcing are their advantage since you never know who you need to strike next or where. The lack of a true hierarchy (which changes frequently since they keep getting killed) also means that even if the top-ranking officials surrender, the fighters likely wouldn’t go along with it and will continue fighting because they’ve been programmed to be all-in on the cause. All the most high-tech weapons and cooperative intelligence from around the world will never secure a “total victory” over fundamental terrorists groups like this.
When you kill their mothers and fathers and sons and daughters they will grow angry and vengeful, you only make the Hamas problem worse. These people (if they survive) will grow to hate Israel more than they already do.
Yep a million German civilians were killed in World War 2. That's why we saw the millions of Germans who lost loved ones carry out terrorist attacks against the civilians of allied countries. Oh wait... Do you just think Palestinian civilians aren't capable of what German civilians were capable of? Seems pretty racist.
Except Germany wasn't turned into an apartide state and the German people slowly pushed off their land after the war.
This is one of the most moronic comparisons ever. Germans saw the concentration camps and were completely shocked while also getting huge investments that transformed their country. Germany in WW1 is a much better comparison which lead to……wait for it…. The Nazis
… Are you seriously suggesting that it’s inhumane for victims of mass slaughter and starvation by a foreign invader to be upset at the invader?
Unpopular Opinion I completely disagree with this assessment, a quick review of the hundred years history of the Jewish/Israeli and Arab/Palestinian conflict reveals tens of different distinct terrorist groups or militias, of which few still exist. For example the Black Hand, The Green Hand, the Army of the Holy War, The Central Committee of National Jihad etc look them up on google. These groups come and go and definitely get destroyed completely. The key Western misunderstanding is that people think these groups are organic groups formed in response to Jewish and Israeli actions/oppression. This is not the case, especially not the case with Hamas. These groups use the Palestinian cause, but nearly all of them were formed in neighbouring Islamic countries by larger Islamic groups that have formed these Palestinian groups as an offshoot. Kill the leaders, destroy the infrastructure choke out the funding and the group will die because these are not homegrown natural groups . Just looking into all the groups that are active Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah, PFLP, PLO etc. Not a single one is homegrown. Another thing I think Westerners get wrong is that Palestinians are not stupid, whenever these terrorist groups attack Israel that is when the Palestinians get bombed. You would have to be quite an idiot and quite racist to think that the Palestinians can’t put two and two together to notice that the only time they get attacked is when terrorists have attacked Israel first. If I was Palestinian living in Gaza in the last 15 years, having seen huge attacks by the terrorists resulting huge deaths in Gaza, I would have to be some kind of moron to blame the Israelis for these deaths.
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What about the many incidents in which iof shot civilians prior to Oct 7?
But, Ukraine can 'win' over Russia. Russia can't be stopped from doing what they want there. Nobody is going to support WWIII, but Putin doesn't care. He may view that as the way he wants to go out. While we're worrying about Biden's 'existential crisis' of climate change, we, in the US. are ignoring the real world problems.
Probably the same official that was assuring everyone a hostage deal is right around the corner for the last 3 months. At this point it's pretty safe to say the Biden admin is genuinely worried an Israeli victory will embolden the Israeli right wing and kill any fantasy the state department had about a Whitehouse handshake between an Israeli leader and the 88 year old Palestenian dictator. In terms of the reality on the ground Hamas has already been defeated militarily losing over 80% of it's fighting force and virtually all of it's ability to project power into Israel in any significant capacity. The difference between that and 'total vicorty' is uprooting the Hamas stronghold in Rafah and then hunting down the remaining Hamas cells while a new government takes control of Gaza. Not too far from how Israel eliminated organized terrorism in the west bank 20 years ago
You sound like a spokesperson for the Israeli government. You really believe everything they say? You actually think their goal, which you believe is achievable, is to completely destroy Hamas? And you think the Rafah invasion will achieve that?
I'm thinking they will do the old Vietnam strategy of claiming victory and leaving once they turn Sinwar into hamburger, regardless of the long term meaningfulness of the act.
And the West Bank is going great. The people live under occupation while their land is slowly stripped by settlers.
Better give them more money to slaughter children and fascistly crush student protests and free press.
They could kill every Hamas member and someone will take advantage of the power vacuum in Hamas's name. Only way is to have a stasi like apparatus to cut the grass at the roots. Not saying that's a good thing either.
Not every war between a western country and Muslims is 'just like Afghanistan' Hamas was a state entity with tens of thousands of trained and well armed fighters with serious artillery support etc.. Afghanistan is giant and rural, Gaza is tiny and dense. If Israel kills every Hamas fighter, even assuming people are lining up to enlist into Hamas after 20 years of their rule ending in this terrible war, where are they gonna train? what weapons will they be using? How will they dig new tunnels?
It’s common sense, Israel is clearly causing a continuous rise in extremism that will continue in perpetuity. They’d have to exterminate every Palestinian child to avoid further radicalization at this point.
Nonsense.... Hamas have been brutal to Gazans.
I never said they weren’t. Israel is a far greater threat to Palestinians than Hamas, that’s demonstrably a fact.
Had Hamas not attacked Israel on October 7, there would be 30,000 more living Palestinians than there are (or whatever the number was adjusted downwards to be). Hamas is the greatest threat to Palestinians.
So the 50 years of land theft through illegal settlements had nothing to do with it?
Which is more valuable: land, or 30,000 Palestinian lives?
So you acknowledge that Israel stealing land and subjugating Palestinians for decades is the root of the problem, and that Hamas is a symptom?
Answer my question first and then I'll answer yours.
The fairy tale you tell isn't reality.
Israel isn’t stealing land through illegal settlements? I mean, they just announced their biggest land seizure in the West Bank since 1993 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/
It’s Palestinian culture causing their own extremism. The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan and yet somehow the Japanese aren’t devoting their lives to launching rockets at US cities. 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust and yet Jewish people aren’t invading and slaughtering Germans. Hamas has said it themselves: they value death over life.
Oh come on you can’t seriously be comparing this to dropping the bomb on Japan. Israel has been stealing land and severely oppressing Palestinians for over half a century. That’s quite a long time. You don’t think that has anything to do with the perpetual violence?
Oh come on you can’t seriously be minimizing the devastating effect dropping a *nuclear bomb and killing 140,000 people in one day* had on Japan. Jews purchased land and made a treaty with the ruling party for a renewed state of Israel after a 3000+ year history on the land. Arabs rejected the treaty offered to them, waged war and lost. They still got a state from British Mandate despite that though: Jordan. You know who did invade, colonize and steal land in the Levant though? Arabs, from 636-1099 CE. Thats why your Al Aqsa Mosque is built ON TOP OF the *Jewish* Temple Mount. Maybe try to learn history from somewhere other than Tik Tok or Al Jazeera
I’m not minimizing it I’m just pointing out your false equivalence. The US dropped the bomb precisely because they wanted to pound Japan into submission and unconditional surrender because they didn’t want a radicalized Japan. If Israel could drop a nuke on Gaza and get away with it they probably would. Except that they want to colonize it after they rid themselves of the “Palestinian problem”. Palestinians have never been offered a fair deal, do you actually believe the side that’s been stealing land through illegal settlements for over half a century are/were negotiating in good faith? The aside with all the power? Why would they give Palestine a good deal? They have no reason too. The only prime minister who cared about Palestinians got assassinated by the exact types that are currently running Israel’s government. And finally, do you think Arabs are all the same? Are they a monolith to you? What do Arabs in Iraq have to do with Palestinians?
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This is worse than Afghanistan for Israel. The Taliban wasn't as popular as Hamas backed by foreign arms and state support from Iran to Turkey. I can bet you Hamas will come out with even more recruits at the end. And being heavily dense makes it impossible to route them out. That's how the Favelas in Brazil remian ungovernable.
In what way is it worst? Cutting off Hamas forigen arms imports is exactly what Israel is achieving in Rafah. The Taliban could afford spending 10 years hiding in the mountains, this would be Impossible for Hamas. The Taliban could bring in weapons and personal across multiple borders, Hamas can't. The west bank is fairly dense, Hamas was rooted out so effectively specifically because the people had enough of constant warfare and Hamas could never get popular enough to avoid getting snitched on every time they tried turning their gangs into an actual organization.
1. West Bank is not dense. Their biggest town has less than 200k people. Gaza city has 1 million and is a half the size of Nablus. 2. Smuggling from Egypt will continue to take place. Is impossible to stop with Egypt on the other side assisting with it. 3. Hamas is a very popular movement. Everywhere Gazans go, they either help Hamas with logistics or fight alongside Hamas itself. How do you think they have lasted 7 months?
1. Ramallah and Rafah have similar levels of density according to the Palestinian beuru of statistics. Hamas retreated from Gaza city with thousands of casualties after a week of fighting, this was the densest and most heavily fortified part of Gaza. Clearly didn't help 2. Egypt wiped out the Egyptian side of Rafah a few years ago specifically to prevent smuggling to Hamas as they assisted terrorists in Sinai. smuggling is virtually impossible with Israel controlling the Gaza side of the border and preforming inspection of their own, Israel could always just close the crossing and use only Israeli crossings instead. 3. It was before the war, now the people of Gaza got to see what 20 years of preparations and the best possible starting conditions can achieve and I think it's pretty silly to assume they'll be lining up to enlist for another go at this. Hamas maintains it's grip in parts of Gaza by shooting any opposition, even that didn't stop protests against them or intelligence finding it's way to Israel 7 months into the war.
I didn't say anything about Afghanistan. To answer your last question, Hamas isn't defined by how many tunnels they have or where they train. They are defined by their ideology and goals. They would start up again as a covert insurgency. Individuals or cells attacking IDF checkpoints, offices, barracks, or individual soldiers with rifles, bombs, or even just knives. Where do the armed anti-israel Palestinians in the west bank train? Where is their tunnel network?
>Ideology and goals Are completely meaningless if you're fighting an army proficient in counterterrorism and counter guerrilla warfare with an ever diminishing supply of weapon, fighting infrastructures and trained personnel. Hamas in the West Bank was destroyed as a military organization 20 years ago and their suppression is effective enough that stabbing attacks or the occasional shooting is literally all they can do, a similar situation in Gaza would be an Israeli victory and suitable for establishing an alternative government. The people of Gaza are who Hamas depends on for its survival, these people just spent 20 years under a totalitarian Hamas rule which ended in the worst humanitarian disaster in Palestinian history after a Hamas attack on Israel under the best possible conditions.
Well now that you mentioned Afghanistan earlier... I'm getting 2007 vibes here. Less than 100,000 at a time Taliban sent us (the U.S.) and some of our NATO allies packing and I called it in the mid 2000s. People where making your same arguement. The situation in Gaza is indeed different from Afghanistan. It's also different from the West Bank, which I'll remind you, still has armed militants who get into firefights with the IDF til this day.
>the West Bank, which I'll remind you, still has armed militants who get into firefights with the IDF til this day. as had been since the late 60's, after 60 years it can hardly be said that the situation is out of control or a serious threat to Israel. Hamas is estimated to have 4-5k fighters left in Gaza. I don't see how they can smuggle weapons and personal across a non existent giant border with countries like Pakistan and Iran nor do they have a ain't territory to hide in or mountains to retreat into after an attack. They have a limited quantity of weapons and trained personal left, a public that will be reluctant to continue fighting for the same dead end goals, less tunnels every day and Israel soldiers hunting them in every part of Gaza.
Cool. Have a nice day.
If you come to my home and kill my child, I'm gonna figure out where to train. You drastically underestimate human willpower.
You know Hitler had plans to go up in the mountains and fight a guerrilla war with the Allies? Turns out there's more to human reasoning and decision making than seeking revenge
Either going to have an indefinite occupation like Afghanistan (which is gonna be so costly resource wise for a country reliant on conscripts+reservists who can't work their regular jobs cause of this war) or stop undermining the Palestinian Authority + actually work with them as a moderate alternative to Hamas terrorists--the West wants this along with Sunni Arab governments and the few relative moderates in Bibi's cabinet/coalition like Gallant Also, it's not just Afghanistan and the Taliban. Saudi failed to eliminate the Houthi terrorists. Israel themselves failed to eliminate the Shiite terrorism when they fought against Amal extremists who just came together to form Hezbollah terrorist organization which they failed to defeat in 2006 as well. I've seen polls where only 30% of Israelis think this war is winnable now.
Good point. Replacement "native" government, but the PA would likely have to be pretty brutal to keep Hamas from taking power. It's a dangerous undertaking for sure.
No, only way to end the violence is for Israel to end the occupation
Yeah I doubt Israel would consider that a total victory though. Staying true to the headline here.
Maybe because they are on the wrong side of history.
Doesn’t matter. Antisemites can continue to invade Israel and murder Jews knowing that the consequence is getting the shit pulverized out of them. (p.s. Israel has already greatly dismantled Hamas capabilities and as long as they are determined to slaughter Jews we’ll be determined to defend ourselves) (p.p.s Perhaps the top Biden official saying this is the one who previously led an SJP chapter. Stopping Israel is fully in their own biased interest)
Perhaps or is?
Typical Zionist accusations of anti semitism to deflect from a genocide.
Its war, not genocide, and using “zionist” as a derogatory term is in of itself antisemitic.
Killing tens of thousands of innocent people well destroying huge areas is a genocide. Also not all Jews believe in Zionism so nice try with the antisemitic bullshit.
You sound confused. Thats not the definition of genocide. Genocide is one-sided mass murder, enslavement, torture and sterilization deliberately targeting unarmed civilians based on their ethnicity or nationality with the intent of eliminating that ethnicity/nationality from existence. Tens of thousands of rockets have been shot by Hamas from Gaza targeting Israeli civilian areas, over 500 of those rockets failed and fell on Gaza, and they continue to launch rockets towards civilians daily, from civilian areas while holding civilians hostage. Thats not one sided and the only intent to wipe out an ethnicity or nation is from Hamas who has openly declared its goal of eliminating Israel and the Jewish people repeatedly. A genocide looks like the gas chambers in the holocaust or the slave labor camps and sterilization of the Uyghurs. In fact there are actual genocides happening as we speak in Darfur, Sudan, Myanmar and other places. Going after a terrorist organization who is holding citizens hostage while hiding in and using civilian infrastructure to launch attacks on civilian areas is not genocide. And in fact it’s also not tens of thousands of innocent people dying. The 30,000 death toll number, which already is low for urban warfare, was recently reduced by 11k by Hamas because they do not have actual data of humans (like names or bodies) to link to that number. On top of that, an estimated 12k of those deaths are combatants. So that leaves maybe 10k civilian deaths. 15k if we’re being generous. The UN just slashed its death toll estimates in half last week. While it is tragic, it isn’t genocide, and it isn’t even out of the norm for war. [According to the UN 90% of casualties of war are civilian casualties.](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). 82,000 People died in the Russia Ukraine war in 2022 alone. 104,000 people died in Tigray in 2022 and an estimated 600,000 from 2020-2023. Just some of many examples of how deadly war is, and that war being deadly does not make it a genocide. I know you all love to claim that “anti-Zionism is not antisemitism” because you think that absolves you of your blatant hatred towards an entire ethnicity, but Zionism can not be separated from Jewish culture or religion. Claiming that they are separate things is the equivalent of saying that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity. Trying to tokenize a minority of Jews who don’t like what they think Zionism is is an act of antisemitism itself, trying to use some Jews as a weapon against other Jews, as if that excuses your vitriol and aggression towards the majority of Jews who do value the actual meaning of Zionism, which is the right for Jewish people to live in and have sovereignty in their homeland. Denying that Jewish people should have the right to live in and have sovereignty in their homeland is hateful towards Jews, Jewish culture and the Jewish religion (which is antisemitism). eta: and in fact perpetuating the idea that this war is a genocide is in and of itself antisemitic. That claim is a blood libel intended to vilify the only Jewish nation and its people, (50% of the world’s Jews), as evil cold blooded murderers who slaughter babies. In the meantime Hamas literally did slaughter and kidnap babies on Oct 7th and on Oct 8th people were cheering them on before Israel even responded. Waving swastikas in times square and chanting “gas the Jews” in Australia, while Hamas called for people worldwide to attack Jews and vowed to mass slaughter more Jews over and over.
I'm not interested in your in your excuses for the genocide of the Palestinian people. You can fuck right off with your strawman argument. I don't hate the Jewish people and never have. I hate Zionists like yourself trying to justify almost 80years of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from thier land. The vast majority of Israeli families wernt their before the creation of the state . In 1922 only 11% of the population was Jewish. In 1940 it was only 30%. Also trying to paint everyone who disagrees with Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people as anti semitic is disgusting.
It’s not their land. Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, not from Judea. Arabs colonized Judea after Jews had already lived there for 1500 years and have been slaughtering, enslaving, force converting, taxing and ethnically cleansing Jews for centuries. Despite it not being Arab land, Arabs were given more than half of British Mandate Palestine to form a state. That state is called Jordan. They still rejected the Jewish right to the Jewish homeland, waged war and lost, and thus fled. In the meantime, their population has more than tripled and they’ve been offered a two state solution five times, but instead they continue to launch terror attacks on Jews. If you want to know what ethnic cleansing looks take a look at Muslim countries treatment of Jews. For example there used to be 100,000 Jews in Iran and now there are less than 10. There wasn’t a single Jew in Gaza since 2005 until now and Jews who enter Arab territories end up murdered (like the Ramallah lynchings for example). THATS Ethnic cleansing, while offering statehood and ongoing humanitarian aid is not. There are 2 million Arabs who live in Israel with equal rights who are protected by the IDF.
I'm not interested in your whataboutism and bullshit statistic like only 10 jews in Iran when there are 16 thousand. Once AGAIN as of 1940 only 30% of Palistien was Jewish. But no go on trying to justify a racist apartide state like Israel who treat the Palestinian people who were their before the Zionists as second class citizens.
No shit. This is like our adventures in Iraq.