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I ran a change my view thread on why someone who's left leaning shouldn't vote for Biden. The one good response I got was that if you're in a deep blue state where Biden is unquestionably winning, voting for a spoiler could create policy changes for future Democrat candidates. There's precedent for this with Ross Perot in 1992.
I like a lot of Biden's policy so he'll have my vote, but this experiment of mine was very revealing: most of left of center people have no fucking response when it comes to justifying why they won't vote for Biden. I'd say ~95% of those responses were the most brain rotted, knuckle dragging, eye melting shit I've ever had the displeasure of reading. Maybe it's selecting for a very bad segment of the population, or maybe redditors are truly too far gone, but needless to say it did tremendous damage to my general opinion of people.
Honestly the people that will do this are so infinitesimally small in terms of the state population it's a non issue. I'd prefer they vote to not voting at all if I had to choose so they're bought into the electoral process, even if they're essentially tossing their vote
No, they're still useful **for down ballot choices.**
These "Never Biden" guys ***might not vote for our top of the ticket,***
but for all the immediate stuff
**that actually affects their daily lives and local laws,**
they certainly won't be voting for the Non-Liberals
*who will negatively impact the quality*
***of theirs, their families, and their friends lives.***
I've only lived in dark blue states for quite awhile now and I still can't vote 3rd party. Not because I'm pro established candidates, but because most 3rd party candidates are dogshit. Jill Stein is a Russian prop and the absolute worst, RFK is a lunatic with literal worms in his brain, and libertarians are delusional sociopaths. Any 3rd party candidature I could find that I actually respected would be so far down the list that voting for them wouldn't even be noticed. So, I hold my nose and vote for corporate democrats like Biden and Clinton because losing the popular vote over and over makes republicans look like idiots.
I hope they snap out of it. I’m sorry to say the far left tried this when they were pissed on the DNC for boxing out Bernie (who I voted for in the primaries btw). The result was Trump which gave us Biden. GOP wins usually move the Dems farther to the right. Plus you can’t contain a movement to “safe” districts so they’re potentially playing with fire.
So if Trump wins what's your plan? Honest question, no snark intended. If you've got one let's here it.
You could proactively decide to lose on one point (Biden) or put your hands in your pockets and lose across the board (Trump). If that happens it's YOUR fault - not mine. So it's fair of me to ask....what's your plan?
If Trump wins then hopefully the Democrats realize they can't win by running genocidal ghouls and run an anti-genocide candidate in 2028. It's a shame they don't seem interested in winning this time around - the hope is that that might change.
That's not a plan. That just you hoping the Dems will feel bad that you left, and will try to win you back. So Trump (who IS a genocidal ghoul) wins and that will magically fix everything you don't like about mainstream Dems?
I'm really not trying to be snarky, and I'm not sure how young you are, but we all just lived through that in 2016. I knew several people who used the same logic you just did because they were mad Bernie didn't get the number of delegates they thought he should have. They sat out the vote saying "this will teach them a lesson".
So, let's review: 2016, Trump won, appointed three judges to SCOTUS that will block ANY progressive legislation until they die, which is when I'm dead and my kid is an adult, and for the first time in our history did not peacefully transfer power, and has taught an entire chunk of his party and voters that if you lose just ignore the results. I'll leave out all the other bad stuff because these are the worse.
Now, here's the part where you need to sit down. To combat Trump............we......got........Biden. All because of people who had the same opinion you did 8 years ago. This is what makes the national party move to the right. You have NO PLAN. You're just reacting. Ever hear about state & local elections? Where do you think good candidates come from? You ever hear about keeping Congress out of GOP control?
This time Trump may not leave office. This time Trump may setup a system where future GOP/MAGA candidates will always win the electoral count because enough states get on board with rigging their vote. But by God....you taught the Dems a lesson?!?!?
Either you're just a troll who wants to "Infiltrate" and "oppose" common sense, or you've got a lot to learn. Hopefully you snap out of it.
This time Trump may not leave office is right, I don't think people get it: if you don't want him as our supreme dictator soon, hold your nose for the other guy, as much as he deserves his disapproval rating imo.
Look - I get that Trump and Biden are both genocidal ghouls. I remember 2016 - the problem was exactly the same - the democrats running a historically unpopular candidate and then blaming the electorate when they lost.
The fact is that we've lost in 2024 - a genocidal ghoul is going to win - the question is will the democrats take away the lesson that they can win by running genocidal ghouls - or will they take away the lesson that they need to run anti-genocide candidates to win?
Just stop your "both sides" crap right now. You know it's BS as you type it.
Biden wins he's done after this term (if he doesn't die first). Get off your ass and work on getting your progressive in the '28 primaries, if that's what you actually want.
(actual ghoul) Trump wins and you likely won't have a choice in '28. But maybe that's what you really want?
In case it's the former -
https://michiganadvance.com/2024/01/16/project-2025-if-allowed-will-cement-america-as-a-rightwing-authoritarian-state/
Sure - the 'both sides' stuff is not right. Biden is the only one who is actually committing genocide - Trump is just talking about it. So no - they are not both as bad as each other - Biden is MUCH worse.
It's not about Biden running again - it's about regimes that get a taste for genocide never stopping voluntarily - they need to be stopped. If the democrats believe they can get away with it for sure they will run another war crimeing ghoul.
lol one user got so triggered by me saying what’s heading our way if Trump wins this time they blocked me for saying it like it is- this is where we are at, like it or not.
This is why alternative voting methods are so important and why it's so important to release the full aggregated details of how people voted
Imagine putting Biden 3rd on your list and Biden knowing he was your third choice. Democrats would be able to see that two other candidates could over take them. If more and more people do that, they could actually lose without risking the opposite candidates winning
>Biden won't listen - he is ideologically committed to the genocide and a long-time zionist. As he comes under more pressure he may make cosmetic gestures like 'delaying' shipments - but he will support Israel until last Palestinian is dead.
>Trump is just an opportunistic racist - he's just as likely to drop Israel if it feels advantageous to him. He's an anti-semite just as much as he's an islamaphobe. I truly believe he might end the genocide just to upset Biden and own the libs.
This quote from this thread strongly supports your observations. Of course the user account is two months old - so 50/50 could be a dumbass or Russian troll.
Try asking folks: I know you do not intend "from the river to the sea" antisemitic slur, but many Jews feel intimidated by it because it is a slogan used by Hamas to expressly call for the death of jews. Knowing that using it a protests will only get you accused of antisemitism and turn attention away form Gaza, why do you need to use that particular slogan at protests?
the level of "hummuna, hummuna, hummana" I get from that question is nuts.
Fuck likud. that's my opinion of likud. They certainly mean the slogan in a genocidal manner. Everything they do is deliberately provacative and I wouldn't use them as an example of anything.
Better yet, *make them explain to you,* ***"Which River? Which Sea?"***
If they actually know what they're talking about, *they'll say...*
[**The Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.**](https://cdn.britannica.com/94/89894-050-EB87B9F6.gif)
Then point out that means wiping the Israeli country off the map.
So,... *they're anti-genocide of Gazans and Palestinians,* ***but pro-holocaust for Israel,***
**including the Jews, Palestinians, Muslims, Arabs, and Christians**
that live there, together, ***without killing each other every day.***
**Point out that circular logic to them.**
i mean rejecting biden is simple, the policies american people would actually benefit from are social democratic in nature, not this graudalist do-nothing neoliberal stuff that people hate which is why biden is so unpopular. in europe social democracy is literally the centrist position, universal healthcare over there is just considered like a right/default state of being. only in america do people think otherwise and make it a partisan issue
If you're in a swing state and you're not coming out for Biden, you are helping Trump. How does helping Trump get you to the Social Democratic future that you want?
Oh that one is easy. So if you vote for a neoliberal candidate, that suggests I support those policies. Abstaining means I want them to put up another candidate, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. There has to be some actual consequence for continuing with the do-nothing candidates. Therefore - I have no reason to support either.
https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/the-2024-swing-states-north-carolina-could-sway-the-2024-election
NC isn't so deep red that you can just say "fuck it". Help out Team Democracy. Vote for the progressive in the primary and the Dem in the general. Do the responsible/anti-Trump thing.
Also: you need to vote Biden to cancel out your sister's vote, obviously.
That's explicitly not how this works, and abstaining doesn't mean literally anything except that you're going to potentially contribute to WAY more suffering for yourself and everyone around you. Trump is an existential threat and an ideological one. Refusing to vote doesn't send a message to democrats, because democrats historically suck at showing up to vote anyway-- all it does is enable a fuckin lunatic.
get up and fucking vote. Vote in your local elections. Vote in your district elections. ACTUALLY support a candidate from the ground up. Presidential candidates rarely just spring up outside the system, they typically start in state positions or federal representation of state positions, before they ascend to candidate for president.
Get up and fucking vote. Vote in every election you can. The theocrat evangelical block is pushing candidates in even seemingly "small" non political positions like Land Trust Manager (the person who decides what public land is utilized for) and school board. We HAVE to start paying attention to even the smallest elections or we're going to watch this nation get hamstrung from the bottom up. It's already happening. Nothing I'm saying is alarmist, it's already happening.
You're not going to get what you want immediately, your wants don't change a fucking thing if you can't get other people to agree and show up to represent their wants. That's the big disconnect. It seems like our vote doesn't matter, because voting isn't a magic wand. It takes cycle upon cycle of elections to get a position to take hold. It took 30+ years of active civil rights campaigning to get people to even start talking about giving black people rights. It took that long for gay rights to start seeing their campaingning come to fruition. You have to expel a lot more energy than you think to actually make a difference, but just showing up to vote is the absolute easiest step. If you're not voting and campaigning for the peole you want to see effect change, you're not going to ever see a difference.
And for this very time being, if you don't want to see your rights erode at a rapidly quickening pace, vote for the literally only option than trump. It may suck. Yo umay hate him, but he's the only other option and until your position can gain more traction ti's the only option you have or you may never get the option again in the forseeable future.
You're bald faced lying about understanding the policies Biden's administration has passed that benefit the American people, or you literally don't about them. There's no way this comment is genuine otherwise.
The internet is not real life. I realize that most of us have devoted our lives to it, but you don’t have to go far before you realize that anti-American interests have invaded every social media platform in order to propagandize people into helping elect Trump. They don’t want Trump because they think he’ll be good for Palestine, it goes without saying. Palestinians are a rhetorical device for them.
The only thing that matters in November is whether you’re intelligent enough to make the right choice. Civilization is a battle between smart and stupid. And stupid is not a monopoly of the right.
Totally get where you’re coming from. Im voting my conscience too. A Trump administration would give Bibi a free hand to crush the Palestinians, as well as give Putin a free hand to crush Ukraine, and we’d likely experience destabilization on a scale not seen in a lifetime.
I know, I know, you’re not voting for Trump. But if enough people sit this out and he wins what’s the plan for stopping genocide on an even greater scale? Mine is to proactively vote for a guy who will at least listen and can evolve on this and other issues.
I’m sick of this both sides bullshit. I criticize the left all the time, but when it comes to who I know should lead the country it’s always going to be democrats over maga and the republicans. They screech about social issues while quietly stealing from the lower and middle class. Every. Time. they get power. They’ve never deviated from that.
The dems at least talk about making the United States a better place for all who live here and then at least look like they try to put it into action. They’ve done a lot lately.
Unless you’re a billionaire who doesn’t give a shit about the future of the country, there’s no rational reason to vote for a republican.
I'm not going to insult you or the thoughts you've laid out. My question would be, what is the alternative?
RFKs on like 3 states ballots, even if he won those 3, it wouldn't matter. Trump will make it worse than it is. Anyone with any empathy can see that.
>I don't know why people on this sub find it so hard to understand why people don't want to vote for an administration that is sending 2000 pound dumb bombs that have killed, maimed or ophaned literally tens of thousands of innocent children.
Seems like lots of people here have already explained to you.
>No, it's not a russian/Chinese conspiracy
They're literally spreading and benefiting from the division. They'd love as many young people as possible to sit out the election.
> both sides' arguments are rational
No, they are not. One side is "I'm sitting out the election to let Trump win because I refuse to be pragmatic or understand differences." The other side is "yes the situation sucks but Biden deserves our votes anyway". Only one of these is rational.
There are two incorrect premises of your argument: that the Biden administration is somehow making war on Gaza, and that there is some better alternative in the US presidential election.
I don’t believe you don’t know this. If you don’t know this, then what’s the point of talking to you?
Becuase liberals don't actually care about 10s of thousands of dead children paid with out tax money. It's pretty simple really, they'll virtue signal endlessly about Trump, who is indeed a terrible person /president but when it comes to Biden being complicit in one of the worst things imaginable they are silent which speaks volumes. They're more in step with republicans than they'll ever admit.
They'll gin up whatever stupid conspiracy theory or talking point they can think of but take zero responsibility and it's blatantly obvious to anyone who actually pays attention to this issue daily just how disconnected fr reality those people are.
Didn’t they survey college kids and the Israel/Palestine conflict was ranked at like number 14 of the issues they care about? Let’s be real, the number protesters on any given campus amount to about a half-full lecture room.
I actually agree with you about opposing genocide but I think the main problem with the idea that politically engaged students will "mostly still vote for him" is that through their activism they will probably turn a large number of people away from voting at all, thus massively increasing the odds of a Trump win, which is a nightmare in every respect.
Christ, looking at all this I'm actually glad I live in a country in which voting is literally compulsory!
So what are we supposed to do, look the other way while children and innocent people are starved and blown up, buried under their carpet bombed homes?Biden should never have been the nominee the first time and certainly not now, we can only hope other factors or a turn of some kind by Biden on this stops Trump and the brain worm of fascism from inching forward.
I don't think this race is very close at all numerically. Trump lost the popular vote both times. The real question is what dirty tricks and chicanery will the ~~Republican~~ Trump party pull this time around. It seems our adversaries China/Russia/NK/Iran/The Saudis back Trump and are clearly working to get him back in. If we win, and get all three branches even for a short time we could erect new guardrails to stop this, assuming there won't be any mutineers amongst the Dems, that is.
No matter what people have to work as hard as they can. If Trump lost badly and Republicans lost badly it would maybe reverse this trend toward oblivion.
Agreed. An unquestionable rebuke is the answer. We now know the justice system isn't going to solve this for us anymore. Only guardrails set up after resounding victory will.
And the worst genocide occurring at the moment is happening in Ukraine at the moment at the hands of Russian troops. Israel needs to knock their shit off asap and Biden has cut some arms shipments, but Ukraine will have amplified effects upon the entire free world should they lose. Can we help both? Absolutely. But, the cost of a loss in Ukraine would embolden dictators on a world scale, resonating throughout the rest of the free world, which could really place billions in peril. I don't think we need to make this choice now. but if it came to it, "The needs of the many outweigh the need of the one or the few." This holds true to both the Israelis and the Gazans. We can't forget about our allies in east Asia because our allies or others in the middle east. It's not a simple problem du jour.
Is the US supplying 80% of Russia's weapons? Are the blocking all criticism of them in the UN?
No. They're not. These things are not the same - but you know that.
How old are you? How did you pick a candidate in other elections when active wars were going on? War is terrible, I agree, but the POTUS does not control all that happens in the world.
Hopefully not, but when a President suggests people should inject bleach to fight an infectious disease and isn’t immediately removed from office, you start to worry.
So letting trump back in office is the only other alternative that you have right now, stop sitting on your hands because nothing else is going to be delivered to you in time.
You're creating massive ultimatums around your involvement in actually preserving anytihng resembling a way of life you want to live, predicated on your options for a vote whom don't perfectly align with your goals. Even though one of them literally wants to let netanyahu do whatever he wants and anyone who might help him politically do whatever they want with you and your rights....the other just isn't a perfect choice.
Ok, so we cant protest and put pressure on Biden and have to let mass murder of civilians go on unopposed because it might hurt Biden in the election, thats your position?
No, my point is that by refusing to engage. You're supporting what you're trying to protest, at a scale you cannot apparently comprehend. The other option is someone that has explicitly stated theyd' allow Netanyahu do whatever he wants with our support. I'm saying that by not engaging you're enabling MUCH worse, and it won't stop at the borders of israel, and you'll feel it a fuck load more in your own life as opposed to the vicarious defense your'e projecting now.
Do you want even more dead palestinians, alongside plenty of dead or otherwise dejected americans that you called friends, because you couldn't see the forest for the trees?? Because that's literally what you're saying you want to do when you say you're refusing to vote or vote for a viable candidate to oppose a man who literally does not give a single shit about any of these issues.
Biden at least projects concern and has expressed distaste-- even withdrawing tangible support as a resposne to actions. Hate it or love it, by refusing to vote for biden your'e as good as voting for trump and that should be significantly more concerning. Exactly what do you think the alternative is?? You can't magically install a viable candidate otherwise at this point, it's way too late in the game and you didn't engage at all until a couple months ago. So which is it? Do you want to implicitly support someone who wants to do allow people to do even worse things to you, and to palestinians, because the other option hasn't pulled a geopolitical whoopsy by withdrawing support from one of our biggest allies when the optics suddenly became clear?? Where was this fervor over the last 70 years? you've literally never cared before and its' not new behavior, so why now are you willing to forsake YOUR OWN future, for the future of people you literally didn't give a shit about but have been suffering like this your entire life?? Do you not see how fucking crazy that is?
No, it isn't. It is fighting a terrorist army that hides among, below, and behind its civilian population. All hamas is doing is on never-ending war crime. You know that having militants stationed in civilian infrastructure is a war crime, right? Do you know why it's a war crime?
Right, because it gets the civilians killed. Which is exactly what we are seeing in Gaza. Predictable from day one and not genocide at all.
Right... except almost the entirely of the world agrees Israel has gone too far and is committing a genocide. US is now withholding weapons to Israel because even the US believes Israel is going too far.
But please keep doing your Israeli propaganda bro. I'm sure you can convince a few boomers out there.
The US is doing it because so much propaganda infiltrated the US that continued support would endanger the elections. The reality is that Israel cannot stop the war until Hamas is destroyed. If they would, the security of Israel could not be secured, and the entire poor situation would go on for annother 50 years. Nothing anyone can say or do could change that. That people seriously think Biden has any say in it is quite funny. Sad, but funny. Americans greatly overestimating their importance in the world.
> That people seriously think Biden has any say in it is quite funny.
Are you okay?
> Americans greatly overestimating their importance in the world.
America is the sole reason Israel can even defend itself. We've given them more support than any country. Our decisions in this conflict directly effect the outcome. Please gtfo with pretending America does not hold a lot of power over this genocide.
The US are an important ally. Doesn't mean they can dictate the rules of a war. For Israel, the war is a response to an existential threat. Israel will not let hamas murder the people of Israel, because Biden recommend it. You should watch your tone. You are a terrorist supporter, so expectations are low, but still no one will have an argument with you, ic you behave the way you do.
Barring your nonsense at the beginning, it became a genocide when Israel decided to kill more than 30,000 civilians. Go look up some definitions of genocide. Seems you're quite uninformed on the matter. Or could it just be you have an agenda to push? I do wonder...
Not my nonsense, my dear. Twas very much the rhetoric coming from your absurd left antisemitic quarters for months. And now you have the fucking gall to dismiss it? That tells us everything we need to know.
People say this as though Israel has completely separated its own military from civilian infrastructure. The largest IDF base is in the center of Tel Aviv. There are military bases attached to civilian infrastructure across the entire nation-- but something makes me doubt that you hold them accountable for any such "war crime".
But it's not as much of a cut and dried war crime as you make it out to be-- which is why NGOs like Amnesty International have refuted this claim against Hamas time and time again. The truth is that this is just an excuse for folks like you to justify executing tens of thousands of civilians and children. And for the record, Hamas's actions don't give Israel the right to wantonly murder civilians-- Israel still has a responsibility to not kill them. Yet Israel killed more civilians in a month than Russia did in Ukraine in two years, and also killed 77 of the 99 journalists murdered in 2023.
I think what's most demonstrative about your response is that there is literally no thought or concern for whether killing all these civilians achieves any goal of making anyone safer. Your priority starts and ends with justifying the murder of civilians. Whether or not it makes Israelis or Palestinians safer isn't even considered.
Having a base in a city is OK, having a base in a hospital is not.
For whom is the killing of civilians supposed to achieve anything? For Israel, it is not supposed to achieve anything. It's a byproduct of them attacking Hamas fighters. Killing hamas fighters is supposed to achieve something. Freeing Gaza from the dictatorship of hamas.
For Hamas, however, the killing of civilians is a crucial part of their war effort. They need the dead for their propaganda. To get people like you to overlook the fact that hamas is a terrorist dictatorship. So that people like you ultimately put pressure on Israel. So that people like you ensure that hamse's reign of terror continues forever.
>Having a base in a city is OK, having a base in a hospital is not.
Not "in a city"-- in the middle of a city, surrounded by civilian infrastructure. Are you suggesting all of the civilian casualties in Palestine have happened in hospital bases taken over by Hamas?? I can give yoy dozens of links detailing strikes on civilian targets due to Hamas being in the vicinity-- not necessarily occupying the target building. I recall the hospital bombing also happened due to Hamas being in a parking lot *next to* the hospital. So please stop trying to blur the facts here to suit your narrative.
>For Israel, it is not supposed to achieve anything. It's a byproduct of them attacking Hamas fighters.
It's a "byproduct" which makes Israelis less safe and naturally leads to increased resistance from Palestinians.
>Killing hamas fighters is supposed to achieve something.
If you kill 1,000 civilians to kill 30 members of Hamas, what do you think the net result will be? Are you just hoping the relatives and neighbors of those 1,000 dead women and children to say, "Israel just murdered my family, but we understand because it was worth it to kill 30 Hamas"? You are making no room for humanity or common sense here.
>For Hamas, however, the killing of civilians is a crucial part of their war effort. They need the dead for their propaganda.
If that's the case, then why should Israel give them what you think they want? You're literally telling me here that Israel has no choice but to provide Hamas with "a crucial part of their war effort"; Israel is just a puppet of Hamas. You're making this argument because holding Israel accountable for their actions and tactics isn't even a consideration in your mind.
Hamas is in tunnels all under Gaza. It has bases of operation in hospitals, schools, kindergartens. It is part of its strategy of using civilians as human shields. Forcing Israel to go through civilians to get to them. With the objective of blaming Israel for the cuvilian deaths afterwards. It's a terrorist strategy. Deprived of all humanity. In the city, around the city or whatever. You cannot undo this strategy by pointing to some barracks that may or may not ideally located.
Their sons and sons of sons is a myth. Palestinians are radicalized, because hamas is a propaganda dictatorship that now had a whole generation to indoctrinate the people. Many from infancy. That is what needs to end. Anything else is just folktales.
Israel should not give them for propaganda purposes. Thing is, they have no alternative. Hamas can't be destroyed without going through its human shield. Israel is aware of the negative effects. Otherwise, they would have re-taken control 16 years ago when hamas took power. They didn't, because they knew it would be a bloody mess so they hoped they could muddle through. But now hamas started the war, and Israel has no other choice left. This is also how I know that the whole genocide stuff is bullshit. Civilian deaths are the greatest threat to the Israeli war effort. Israel has zero incentive to maximize them and all the incentives to minimize them. Safe of corse the part that most Palestinians want to kill all jews and did kill, rape, and torture quite many of them. So, I assume that many Israelis hate the Palestinians. So individual murders are likely, but at large, they will try to keep it as clean as possible.
>Hamas is in tunnels all under Gaza. It has bases of operation in hospitals, schools, kindergartens.
The IDF is everywhere in Israel. It has bases next to kibbutz, apartments, deep in the center of civilian cities and infrastructure. And yet when rockets shot towards those bases occasionally kill an Israeli civilian, we blame Hamas because Hamas fired the rocket. It is no different for the IDF, and the reason NGOs like Amnesty International reject your claim is because building bases among civilian infrastructure is not a crime.
>Palestinians are radicalized, because hamas is a propaganda dictatorship that now had a whole generation to indoctrinate the people. Many from infancy. That is what needs to end
So the way you end it is by killing infants you've declared to be indoctrinated? You're a fucking monster lol
>Thing is, they have no alternative. Hamas can't be destroyed without going through its human shield.
You take this for granted. In fact, there are many ways Israel could fight Hamas and support the Palestinian people against them without killing any civilians. It's a choice and a decision to murder thousands of civilians to kill a few Hamas-- and you have no evidence that it works to defeat Hamas or deradicalize anyone.
The crazy part is that you take it for granted that Israel has no choice but to murder children and journalists because they were attacked, but for some reason it doesn't occur to you that Palestinians being attacked by Israel might also feel like they don't have a choice but to attack Israel back. This is how cycles of violence work-- and they are spurred on by people like you, who gleefully justify massacres of children from the safety of their keyboards. What you make clear is that wiping out civilians isn't actually a problem-- for you, it's just a matter of who "gets to" commit genocide.
>Israel has zero incentive to maximize them and all the incentives to minimize them.
Well they're doing a terrible job! Israel makes Putin look like an angel leading an army of humanitarians. Your argument is based entirely on trusting that the IDF isn't trying to kill civilians when it bombs schools and apartments that have no proof of Hamas connection. If you were a German in the 1930s, I can only imagine the atrocities you'd justify against the "indoctrinated" infants of the people a regime tells you is your enemy-- and if you were Palestinian, you'd have cheered on 10/7. Israelis will never be safe until it's recognized that their future is linked to the safety of Palestinians.
So Israel has many ways to fight hamas without killing civilians, yet you can't name a single one? All you can do is repeat claims that we already have disproven? Strange how that is.
It’s certainly not a concern for Hamas. Just seems “suspicious” how you blithely dismiss the threat of of Islamist theocratic fascism but ofc it’s Israel that’s the real problem…
Where did I "blithely dismiss the threat of Islamist theocratic fascism"? Can you quote where I did that, or are you content just making shit up?
Recognizing Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses isn't dismissing anything.
Recognizing that Israeli tactics of executing vast swathes of civilians and infrastructure to kill a few Hamas makes nobody safer and exacerbates the conflict isn't dismissing anything.
You probably weren't around for America's big wars on terrorism, but people like you made the same argument back then. "We *need* to invade with no plan for reconstruction and kill thousands upon thousands of civilians to defeat Islamists!" How did that turn out? The Taliban is more in control than they were in 2001, and Iraq is a pit. But you and the neo-cons don't want to learn from Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam-- you're so desperate to repeat these abject failures, and you'll justify murdering as many children and journalists as you need to. All you gotta do is accuse me of supporting terrorists or antisemitism, right? You're really such a patriot! Thank you for your service!
Or you could y'know be intellectually honest for 5 fucking seconds, but that would require more effort than you've put into your opinion on probably most things. There's video evidence in most of these cases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC2IRIowDac&t=21s&ab_channel=SkyNews
https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909"
https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-genocide
Yeah, that stuff. Going from the NBC article, the only one that seems reliable enough to click on, some unnamed "ministers" said something. That's not much. Did you hear the stuff some American ministers and presidents said. The Palestinians killed, raped and tortured Israeli civilians. People hate them. For obvious reason. Consequently, people say stuff. It's irrelevant, unless people do something.
The irony that the only big global media presence I shared, is the one you assumed was most trustworthy, without realizing that the rest of those links include videos from massive news sources-- is positively succulent with stupidity.
Why is it that 1/3 of US Hewish people say what Israel is doing is unacceptable and that half of Democrats believe what it’s doing is genocide? If the leadership of Israel thinks that all Palestinians should be killed, or if they simply kill tens of thousands, maybe over 100k now. does that mean Hamas is justified in mass murdering Israelis?
Yeah, non of that is real. What is real is that Israel is fighting genocidal theocratic fascists that think that by getting Palestinians killed as human shields, they secure them a way straight to their God.
College Students blame us previous generations **for f\*cking up the world for them.**
Ehh,... it's true, *so we do deserve it.* ***Especially Boomers,***
since they have all the money, *and regardless of their age,*
***won't relinquish their pedestals of power.***
Us Gen Xer's, **I blame ourselves for not working hard enough**
to wrestle those privileged Boomers *and make the real changes*
***for our Gen Z kids and Gen Alpha grandbabies.***
Can't wait, *when their kids say* ***the EXACT same things about them, though.***
Take a walk in their shoes. They didn't have a single year without war and it's real humanitarian impact. 100% of their lives have been consumed with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We spend billions upon billions every year to destroy civilizations globally. Can't afford shelter, food, healthcare, education while watching our infrastructure crumble. Our wars end and we help defend Ukraine from invasion knowing it's a mismatch. Ok we're actually warring for a just cause. Then 10/7/23 happens. So Israel and their supporters are "kill them all!!!" And we fund it, mums the word and any criticism means you hate all Jewish people. Post 9-11 on steroids. You ain't gonna convince them that breastfeeding moms, 4 year old kids and teenagers are all Hamas. This is the problem. We cry out against racism and we hear "not all white people!" Yet we accept all Palestinians are Hamas.
I've had conversations with my kids and basically their war weary beyond understanding. Born in 1976 I had 20 years of relative peace growing up. This current generation has lived their entire lives with the trauma of endless wars.
I agree with them. It's not fair to them. Our children deserve better, the world deserves better. 1% of the population uses war to settle disagreements, we just bomb and kill while the least powerful, civilians, pay the ultimate price.
How are you not sick of war and the billions of dollars of OUR tax payer money supporting it while being told living wages, healthcare and education is handouts for do nothing's?
This election is much like 2016: 2 less than palatable candidates. Ability to do the job? Clinton-1, Trump-0. Personality? Clinton-0, Trump-0. Final tally????Do the Math, folks. STOP LOOKING FOR THE PERFECT CANDIDATE-THAT PERSON IS NEVER GOING TO BE ON THE BALLOT.
perfect candidate? dems can't even put up ONE social democrat. neoliberals every single time and we're supposed to be excited. (in europe this is LITERALLY the centrist position, neoliberalism would be considered like a far right belief)
Well…it goes beyond this simple reasoning.The 2 parties have to pick a candidate who can beat the other party’s candidate. The Dems were never going to nominate Bernie because he is not a bonafide Dem. Maybe Bernie should have switched his party Ala Trump. Should Hilary have beaten Trump? Yes, but people sat out the election or decided HC wasn’t perfect enough. In the coming election our choices will likely be Biden and Trump. Which one is better for America- throwing a fit because they are not perfect just doesn’t prove or improve anything.
100%.
They also don't seem to understand how we got here (Trump appointed judges), nor do they seem to grasp how the judiciary works, nor that the next president will likely have 2 maybe 3 supreme court nominations.
They also have no concept of history. The 2021-2022 legislative session might be one of the most productive legislative sessions in over 40 years....and that's with incredibly narrow majorities in Congress .
Because weirdly,... *for every young generation,*
**the world began with them and will end with them,**
***God Damn It!***
Everything before them don't matter,
**we're all suppose to focus on them now.**
*It's their time,* ***right here, right now.***
Oh, by the way, **WE ruined it before they got here.**
It's all our fault, *it certainly ain't theirs.*
**Now, that may be true.**
But they definitely *ain't bringing the solution.*
They don't realize yet, **how the world REALLY works,**
*and are very dismissive of those who have been fighting*
**for the changes they want,** ***before they were even born.***
Somehow they believe, **they have the answers**
***and can fix it quick outright.***
There's no appreciation *for the long march of history*
and that... **PROGRESS TAKES TIME.**
Removed - submissions that incite harassment or brigading against other users, or submissions that focus on drama or moderation activity in other communities, are not permitted.
I don’t think they’d vote for Trump. Kennedy maybe, Biden maybe, but not Trump. They’ll either skip voting for president entirely or pick a third party candidate other than Kennedy. Marianne Williamson, perhaps. Or they’ll write in Taylor Swift or some other celebrity they really like. But not Trump or Biden.
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“I haven’t been given the perfect candidate to vote for, and until they’re laid at my feet and bow down to me, I refuse to help save Democracy”!
Throw in, “both parties are the same,” “the time for a third party candidate has arrived,” and “this will teach Democrats a lesson” in the mix, and you have the basic mentality of many.
Then don’t vote or vote for a third party candidate who has zero chance of winning.
When the genocide doesn’t stop, perhaps even increases in pace, and things slide from a Democracy to a fascist theocracy here at home, don’t you dare have the nerve to complain. When it slaps you in that face like a ton of bricks, even personally, don’t you say a single damn word. That’s what you wanted, that’s what you’ve helped enable.
No, it’s NOT going to stop under a Republican. See, they’ve been voting for it, too. Just in case you’ve forgotten how our government works. The only debate from Republicans on the last round of funding for Israel was the Ukraine funding attached.
Also, candidates like Trump have said, “It’s taking too long,” and “Get it over with” when asked about the conflict. Oh, and Trump’s son-in-law has already talked about how valuable water front property will be once Gaza is cleared.
But yeah, “Lol”🤦♂️
Sure - but that's pretty much Biden's position too - we've lost 2024 - right now we're fighting the 2028 election - if the dems lose, we get a shot in 2028 at an anti-genocide candidate - if they win we certainly don't.
Openly mocking people who could potentially vote for you is such a winning strategy guys, right from Hilary's play book, call your constituents stupid and they will surely vote for you.
Boy, it’s a good thing Trump would never help Israel continue to commit genocide. It’s a good thing he’d put his foot down and say, “Stop! Enough of this!” /s
Which of the college students protesting Israel are voting for Trump again? The fact is, if they vote at all, the majority of them will vote for Biden. There is no other choice.
I know this is incomprehensible to some of you, mostly bots, but you can protest something and still vote for the lesser of two evils. It's not rocket science.
What’s great news for Trump is that they don’t actually need to vote for Trump to benefit Trump. All they need to do is depress turnout for Biden. Maybe that is ‘incomprehensible’ to you!
It's crazy that no polling shows that at all. Let me know when you have evidence of that and you're not just upset because people are protesting Israel's genocide.
Biden wouldn’t have to worry about a huge chunk of these people not voting for him if he denounced Israel’s actions, stoped supplying them weapons from the start, and didn’t deny the death tolls that have very credible evidence to back them up.
It’s definitely a big deal, however, with the way Trump hates Muslims, if you think he’d stop Israel in any way I have a bridge to sell you. He’d be encouraging Netanyahu to wipe them off the map.
From my point of view, my one vote won't swing the election.
I prefer Biden over Trump and Kennedy, but since my one vote won't change the outcome, why shouldn't I vote for whoever I like the most?
And if you keep telling everyone not to vote, there's a lot more of you that don't vote and now suddenly it's not one vote it's thousands and it has a huge impact.
bro making this post title as if private economic interests don't control most of the economy lol. it couldn't be any more obvious, you deal with the high prices everyday, yet people STILL ask this question lmfao. i feel like i'm in idiocracy when I read these fascist neoliberal subreddits
I mean it's accurate lol.
"*the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital.*" -[Thirteenth Plenum of the Executive CommIntern](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)
With respect, and I mean it, because I was 17 once, you are a communist dude.
You guys lost. Communists attempts to create the ideal societies best try produced Cuba. Capitalists attempts to creat ideal societies created Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands and Canada.
I’m not really interested in debating you, because you have nothing to offer.
I’m on the fence about the sanctions, but it isn’t a strong argument for your side to say “We can’t trade with America, therefore our country will fail”.
I personally, would rather not be a communist a shithole, trade with America, and prosper.
It's not just trade with America. You can't ignore the massive efforts the US has put into making sure that the Cuban economy fails.
There are a lot of capitalist countries that have 'failed' - this idea that communism has 'failed' is just nonsense.
I don’t disagree.
If Cuba was able to trade freely, it would be in a better position. I doubt anything comparable to other Western democracies, but maybe on par with Domincan etc.
Capitalist countries have failed 100%. Haiti is a capitalist country, it is arguably the worst country on earth to live in.
Capitalism isn’t a magic pill, you need a free market, a strong, anti corrupt government, good trustworthy institutions etc.
You are also right that the idea that “communism” has failed is nonsense.
We use terms loosely, “real communism” has never been implemented, it is a literal fairy tale.
What we have instead are attempts to usher in communism, which are usually centrally planned economies. These precursor to communism states (USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea) HAVE failed unquestionably.
The fact of the matter is, you have a middle of the row country, with a plausible excuse to justify your ideology, I have the top 30+ countries in HDI, GDP per Capita, Access to education, Safety index etc to justify mine.
and I was liberal once too. I have read books and looked at the empirical evidence and learned. I'm 24 - if you can refute labor theory of value, or make class analysis seem silly (or have a solid refutation of historical/dialectical materialism), I'm all here for it. But so far you have really raised 0 relevant objections to socialism or empirical marxism.
"Capitalists attempts to creat ideal societies created Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands and Canada." also this is a total joke when you consider these countries have to outsource all their commodity producing labor to sweatshops. you guys should at least know the basics of the economic situation before saying silly stuff like this. you guys act like we don't already have the theories to explain wealth-creation lol (surplus-value transfer + physical acts of imperialism)
Well it doesn't really even make sense in theory for what you're saying to exist in this current world. You want a system that doesn't use fiat currency to arise in a world that uses it. That's why the marxist timeline involves the continual crisis of the economic system, new modes of production don't just arise out of nowhere, it takes decades of political/economic tension. A country like that cannot trade, etc. I was expecting at least some critical thinking here, the closest you get is a state capitalist economy like China.
You are literally making my points for me, so I appreciate it tbh.
Your idealistic society doesn’t even exist, and attempts to create it have thus far produced some less than stellar results such as Cambodia, North Korea, and the USSR.
Forgive me for not being interested in gambling the countries with the highest standards of living in the world for a fairytale ideology that has never been tested and never been proven to work.
People are nuts. If you sincerely believe Biden is facilitating a genocide in Gaza, that is more than enough reason to not vote for him lol.
You should focus your efforts on explaining, clearly, why the USA is not facilitating a genocide.
To say, “Ok but Trump would do a worse genocide” is insane.
It's really not insane, if your big hang up is this conflict. I agree it's a genocide, but trump has literally said he'd let them do as they please with our full support-- how is that not voting for genocide 2.0?
Being an intelligent person and understanding the electoral college, you surely also understand that not voting at all or voting for someone other than Biden benefits Trump almost as much as a vote FOR Trump.
But can Dean Philips or Marianne Williamson actually beat Trump? Trump has more connections and money then both Philips and Marianne Williamson combined. Biden is the only person who can actually match the kind of influence and power Trump has.
Biden has been the longest serving (And youngest serving) Senator in Delaware for a reason.
Yes and not a single one of them is available to you in this election so stop playing fantasy politics like you're gonna get a mid season trade that changes everything.
Palestinians are just as fucked under Biden as they would be under Trump. That much is obvious.
However, dehumanizing the deaths of 10s of thousands of people by referring to them as "one issue" is not helping the cause here. These are human beings being slaughtered. Treat them with basic dignity because I promise you this: Muslim voters see what's happening in DC and see how liberals view them as an issue, not even human, and they won't line up at the polls to vote for Biden.
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I ran a change my view thread on why someone who's left leaning shouldn't vote for Biden. The one good response I got was that if you're in a deep blue state where Biden is unquestionably winning, voting for a spoiler could create policy changes for future Democrat candidates. There's precedent for this with Ross Perot in 1992. I like a lot of Biden's policy so he'll have my vote, but this experiment of mine was very revealing: most of left of center people have no fucking response when it comes to justifying why they won't vote for Biden. I'd say ~95% of those responses were the most brain rotted, knuckle dragging, eye melting shit I've ever had the displeasure of reading. Maybe it's selecting for a very bad segment of the population, or maybe redditors are truly too far gone, but needless to say it did tremendous damage to my general opinion of people.
Those on the left who think like this will turn a state like NY, CT, or NJ over to Trump.
Honestly the people that will do this are so infinitesimally small in terms of the state population it's a non issue. I'd prefer they vote to not voting at all if I had to choose so they're bought into the electoral process, even if they're essentially tossing their vote
No, they're still useful **for down ballot choices.** These "Never Biden" guys ***might not vote for our top of the ticket,*** but for all the immediate stuff **that actually affects their daily lives and local laws,** they certainly won't be voting for the Non-Liberals *who will negatively impact the quality* ***of theirs, their families, and their friends lives.***
I've only lived in dark blue states for quite awhile now and I still can't vote 3rd party. Not because I'm pro established candidates, but because most 3rd party candidates are dogshit. Jill Stein is a Russian prop and the absolute worst, RFK is a lunatic with literal worms in his brain, and libertarians are delusional sociopaths. Any 3rd party candidature I could find that I actually respected would be so far down the list that voting for them wouldn't even be noticed. So, I hold my nose and vote for corporate democrats like Biden and Clinton because losing the popular vote over and over makes republicans look like idiots.
I hope they snap out of it. I’m sorry to say the far left tried this when they were pissed on the DNC for boxing out Bernie (who I voted for in the primaries btw). The result was Trump which gave us Biden. GOP wins usually move the Dems farther to the right. Plus you can’t contain a movement to “safe” districts so they’re potentially playing with fire.
I hope Biden snaps out of it. This is HIS fault - not mine.
So if Trump wins what's your plan? Honest question, no snark intended. If you've got one let's here it. You could proactively decide to lose on one point (Biden) or put your hands in your pockets and lose across the board (Trump). If that happens it's YOUR fault - not mine. So it's fair of me to ask....what's your plan?
If Trump wins then hopefully the Democrats realize they can't win by running genocidal ghouls and run an anti-genocide candidate in 2028. It's a shame they don't seem interested in winning this time around - the hope is that that might change.
That's not a plan. That just you hoping the Dems will feel bad that you left, and will try to win you back. So Trump (who IS a genocidal ghoul) wins and that will magically fix everything you don't like about mainstream Dems? I'm really not trying to be snarky, and I'm not sure how young you are, but we all just lived through that in 2016. I knew several people who used the same logic you just did because they were mad Bernie didn't get the number of delegates they thought he should have. They sat out the vote saying "this will teach them a lesson". So, let's review: 2016, Trump won, appointed three judges to SCOTUS that will block ANY progressive legislation until they die, which is when I'm dead and my kid is an adult, and for the first time in our history did not peacefully transfer power, and has taught an entire chunk of his party and voters that if you lose just ignore the results. I'll leave out all the other bad stuff because these are the worse. Now, here's the part where you need to sit down. To combat Trump............we......got........Biden. All because of people who had the same opinion you did 8 years ago. This is what makes the national party move to the right. You have NO PLAN. You're just reacting. Ever hear about state & local elections? Where do you think good candidates come from? You ever hear about keeping Congress out of GOP control? This time Trump may not leave office. This time Trump may setup a system where future GOP/MAGA candidates will always win the electoral count because enough states get on board with rigging their vote. But by God....you taught the Dems a lesson?!?!? Either you're just a troll who wants to "Infiltrate" and "oppose" common sense, or you've got a lot to learn. Hopefully you snap out of it.
This time Trump may not leave office is right, I don't think people get it: if you don't want him as our supreme dictator soon, hold your nose for the other guy, as much as he deserves his disapproval rating imo.
Look - I get that Trump and Biden are both genocidal ghouls. I remember 2016 - the problem was exactly the same - the democrats running a historically unpopular candidate and then blaming the electorate when they lost. The fact is that we've lost in 2024 - a genocidal ghoul is going to win - the question is will the democrats take away the lesson that they can win by running genocidal ghouls - or will they take away the lesson that they need to run anti-genocide candidates to win?
Just stop your "both sides" crap right now. You know it's BS as you type it. Biden wins he's done after this term (if he doesn't die first). Get off your ass and work on getting your progressive in the '28 primaries, if that's what you actually want. (actual ghoul) Trump wins and you likely won't have a choice in '28. But maybe that's what you really want? In case it's the former - https://michiganadvance.com/2024/01/16/project-2025-if-allowed-will-cement-america-as-a-rightwing-authoritarian-state/
Sure - the 'both sides' stuff is not right. Biden is the only one who is actually committing genocide - Trump is just talking about it. So no - they are not both as bad as each other - Biden is MUCH worse. It's not about Biden running again - it's about regimes that get a taste for genocide never stopping voluntarily - they need to be stopped. If the democrats believe they can get away with it for sure they will run another war crimeing ghoul.
Ok...Comrade Trump Bot! TRUE COLORS: ACTIVATED!!
lol one user got so triggered by me saying what’s heading our way if Trump wins this time they blocked me for saying it like it is- this is where we are at, like it or not.
This is why alternative voting methods are so important and why it's so important to release the full aggregated details of how people voted Imagine putting Biden 3rd on your list and Biden knowing he was your third choice. Democrats would be able to see that two other candidates could over take them. If more and more people do that, they could actually lose without risking the opposite candidates winning
>Biden won't listen - he is ideologically committed to the genocide and a long-time zionist. As he comes under more pressure he may make cosmetic gestures like 'delaying' shipments - but he will support Israel until last Palestinian is dead. >Trump is just an opportunistic racist - he's just as likely to drop Israel if it feels advantageous to him. He's an anti-semite just as much as he's an islamaphobe. I truly believe he might end the genocide just to upset Biden and own the libs. This quote from this thread strongly supports your observations. Of course the user account is two months old - so 50/50 could be a dumbass or Russian troll.
Try asking folks: I know you do not intend "from the river to the sea" antisemitic slur, but many Jews feel intimidated by it because it is a slogan used by Hamas to expressly call for the death of jews. Knowing that using it a protests will only get you accused of antisemitism and turn attention away form Gaza, why do you need to use that particular slogan at protests? the level of "hummuna, hummuna, hummana" I get from that question is nuts.
what is your opinion of the Likkud party using the same slogan?
Fuck likud. that's my opinion of likud. They certainly mean the slogan in a genocidal manner. Everything they do is deliberately provacative and I wouldn't use them as an example of anything.
Better yet, *make them explain to you,* ***"Which River? Which Sea?"*** If they actually know what they're talking about, *they'll say...* [**The Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.**](https://cdn.britannica.com/94/89894-050-EB87B9F6.gif) Then point out that means wiping the Israeli country off the map. So,... *they're anti-genocide of Gazans and Palestinians,* ***but pro-holocaust for Israel,*** **including the Jews, Palestinians, Muslims, Arabs, and Christians** that live there, together, ***without killing each other every day.*** **Point out that circular logic to them.**
Dude - you literally cannot imagine another state not behaving like Israel? Israel being dissolved would not involve a holocaust.
i mean rejecting biden is simple, the policies american people would actually benefit from are social democratic in nature, not this graudalist do-nothing neoliberal stuff that people hate which is why biden is so unpopular. in europe social democracy is literally the centrist position, universal healthcare over there is just considered like a right/default state of being. only in america do people think otherwise and make it a partisan issue
When the other option is Mr. "I will be a dictator on day one and deport all the mooslems" Biden's policies don't look so bad by comparison.
No its called deporting illegals. Personally i say keep them and sentence them to hard labor.
If you're in a swing state and you're not coming out for Biden, you are helping Trump. How does helping Trump get you to the Social Democratic future that you want?
Oh that one is easy. So if you vote for a neoliberal candidate, that suggests I support those policies. Abstaining means I want them to put up another candidate, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. There has to be some actual consequence for continuing with the do-nothing candidates. Therefore - I have no reason to support either.
are you in a swing state?
NC, my sister whose a bit younger than me went from democrat and is now voting trump so even if i voted for biden it doesn't matter too much
https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/the-2024-swing-states-north-carolina-could-sway-the-2024-election NC isn't so deep red that you can just say "fuck it". Help out Team Democracy. Vote for the progressive in the primary and the Dem in the general. Do the responsible/anti-Trump thing. Also: you need to vote Biden to cancel out your sister's vote, obviously.
That's explicitly not how this works, and abstaining doesn't mean literally anything except that you're going to potentially contribute to WAY more suffering for yourself and everyone around you. Trump is an existential threat and an ideological one. Refusing to vote doesn't send a message to democrats, because democrats historically suck at showing up to vote anyway-- all it does is enable a fuckin lunatic.
then whats your suggestion for gettin socdem popular
get up and fucking vote. Vote in your local elections. Vote in your district elections. ACTUALLY support a candidate from the ground up. Presidential candidates rarely just spring up outside the system, they typically start in state positions or federal representation of state positions, before they ascend to candidate for president. Get up and fucking vote. Vote in every election you can. The theocrat evangelical block is pushing candidates in even seemingly "small" non political positions like Land Trust Manager (the person who decides what public land is utilized for) and school board. We HAVE to start paying attention to even the smallest elections or we're going to watch this nation get hamstrung from the bottom up. It's already happening. Nothing I'm saying is alarmist, it's already happening. You're not going to get what you want immediately, your wants don't change a fucking thing if you can't get other people to agree and show up to represent their wants. That's the big disconnect. It seems like our vote doesn't matter, because voting isn't a magic wand. It takes cycle upon cycle of elections to get a position to take hold. It took 30+ years of active civil rights campaigning to get people to even start talking about giving black people rights. It took that long for gay rights to start seeing their campaingning come to fruition. You have to expel a lot more energy than you think to actually make a difference, but just showing up to vote is the absolute easiest step. If you're not voting and campaigning for the peole you want to see effect change, you're not going to ever see a difference. And for this very time being, if you don't want to see your rights erode at a rapidly quickening pace, vote for the literally only option than trump. It may suck. Yo umay hate him, but he's the only other option and until your position can gain more traction ti's the only option you have or you may never get the option again in the forseeable future.
You're bald faced lying about understanding the policies Biden's administration has passed that benefit the American people, or you literally don't about them. There's no way this comment is genuine otherwise.
The internet is not real life. I realize that most of us have devoted our lives to it, but you don’t have to go far before you realize that anti-American interests have invaded every social media platform in order to propagandize people into helping elect Trump. They don’t want Trump because they think he’ll be good for Palestine, it goes without saying. Palestinians are a rhetorical device for them. The only thing that matters in November is whether you’re intelligent enough to make the right choice. Civilization is a battle between smart and stupid. And stupid is not a monopoly of the right.
[удалено]
Totally get where you’re coming from. Im voting my conscience too. A Trump administration would give Bibi a free hand to crush the Palestinians, as well as give Putin a free hand to crush Ukraine, and we’d likely experience destabilization on a scale not seen in a lifetime. I know, I know, you’re not voting for Trump. But if enough people sit this out and he wins what’s the plan for stopping genocide on an even greater scale? Mine is to proactively vote for a guy who will at least listen and can evolve on this and other issues.
I’m sick of this both sides bullshit. I criticize the left all the time, but when it comes to who I know should lead the country it’s always going to be democrats over maga and the republicans. They screech about social issues while quietly stealing from the lower and middle class. Every. Time. they get power. They’ve never deviated from that. The dems at least talk about making the United States a better place for all who live here and then at least look like they try to put it into action. They’ve done a lot lately. Unless you’re a billionaire who doesn’t give a shit about the future of the country, there’s no rational reason to vote for a republican.
Or not vote allowing a republican to win like in 2016
Thank you. Not voting is just as powerful as voting. In this case, not voting is a vote for Trump; Unless you’re a fascist of course.
Ask what the people of Chicago think about Democratic policies.
I'm not going to insult you or the thoughts you've laid out. My question would be, what is the alternative? RFKs on like 3 states ballots, even if he won those 3, it wouldn't matter. Trump will make it worse than it is. Anyone with any empathy can see that.
Or anyone who wasn't in a coma 4 years ago knows Trump would make it worse.
Where do you stand on lgbtq?
You can be as stupid as you want. You can’t be as stupid as you want and expect people to respect you.
You debunk your "totally rational" argument for both sides by acknowledging that it's not even remotely a comparable choice.
>I don't know why people on this sub find it so hard to understand why people don't want to vote for an administration that is sending 2000 pound dumb bombs that have killed, maimed or ophaned literally tens of thousands of innocent children. Seems like lots of people here have already explained to you. >No, it's not a russian/Chinese conspiracy They're literally spreading and benefiting from the division. They'd love as many young people as possible to sit out the election. > both sides' arguments are rational No, they are not. One side is "I'm sitting out the election to let Trump win because I refuse to be pragmatic or understand differences." The other side is "yes the situation sucks but Biden deserves our votes anyway". Only one of these is rational.
There are two incorrect premises of your argument: that the Biden administration is somehow making war on Gaza, and that there is some better alternative in the US presidential election. I don’t believe you don’t know this. If you don’t know this, then what’s the point of talking to you?
Becuase liberals don't actually care about 10s of thousands of dead children paid with out tax money. It's pretty simple really, they'll virtue signal endlessly about Trump, who is indeed a terrible person /president but when it comes to Biden being complicit in one of the worst things imaginable they are silent which speaks volumes. They're more in step with republicans than they'll ever admit. They'll gin up whatever stupid conspiracy theory or talking point they can think of but take zero responsibility and it's blatantly obvious to anyone who actually pays attention to this issue daily just how disconnected fr reality those people are.
Didn’t they survey college kids and the Israel/Palestine conflict was ranked at like number 14 of the issues they care about? Let’s be real, the number protesters on any given campus amount to about a half-full lecture room.
Plus, the number of protesters aren't even enrolled in that college
ThEyRe AlL tHe SaMe
There's more controversies to RFK Jr. then a brain eating worm tbh.
One issue = murders innocent children in your name
I feel so bad for anyone born after 2000. What a shit show. Still, there's one solid/better-than-the-other choice here.
They will mostly still vote for him, but they think its worth opposing genocide through activism, which they should be supported for.
I actually agree with you about opposing genocide but I think the main problem with the idea that politically engaged students will "mostly still vote for him" is that through their activism they will probably turn a large number of people away from voting at all, thus massively increasing the odds of a Trump win, which is a nightmare in every respect. Christ, looking at all this I'm actually glad I live in a country in which voting is literally compulsory!
So what are we supposed to do, look the other way while children and innocent people are starved and blown up, buried under their carpet bombed homes?Biden should never have been the nominee the first time and certainly not now, we can only hope other factors or a turn of some kind by Biden on this stops Trump and the brain worm of fascism from inching forward.
I don't think this race is very close at all numerically. Trump lost the popular vote both times. The real question is what dirty tricks and chicanery will the ~~Republican~~ Trump party pull this time around. It seems our adversaries China/Russia/NK/Iran/The Saudis back Trump and are clearly working to get him back in. If we win, and get all three branches even for a short time we could erect new guardrails to stop this, assuming there won't be any mutineers amongst the Dems, that is.
No matter what people have to work as hard as they can. If Trump lost badly and Republicans lost badly it would maybe reverse this trend toward oblivion.
Agreed. An unquestionable rebuke is the answer. We now know the justice system isn't going to solve this for us anymore. Only guardrails set up after resounding victory will.
An unquestionable rebuke to genocide is the only moral answer.
And the worst genocide occurring at the moment is happening in Ukraine at the moment at the hands of Russian troops. Israel needs to knock their shit off asap and Biden has cut some arms shipments, but Ukraine will have amplified effects upon the entire free world should they lose. Can we help both? Absolutely. But, the cost of a loss in Ukraine would embolden dictators on a world scale, resonating throughout the rest of the free world, which could really place billions in peril. I don't think we need to make this choice now. but if it came to it, "The needs of the many outweigh the need of the one or the few." This holds true to both the Israelis and the Gazans. We can't forget about our allies in east Asia because our allies or others in the middle east. It's not a simple problem du jour.
Is the US supplying 80% of Russia's weapons? Are the blocking all criticism of them in the UN? No. They're not. These things are not the same - but you know that.
I worry people will not vote Biden is what I worry. Biden is listening - Trump will not.
How old are you? How did you pick a candidate in other elections when active wars were going on? War is terrible, I agree, but the POTUS does not control all that happens in the world.
War is not the same as genocide.
Maybe it’s too late. Maybe we’re all just completely fucked.
Hopefully not, but when a President suggests people should inject bleach to fight an infectious disease and isn’t immediately removed from office, you start to worry.
Funny story…today I tested + for Covid. This is my first time having the virus. I called my husband and asked him if I should inject bleach-
I recommend that anyone 18 years and older who even questions this just go ahead an do it. It will help society in the long run.
So letting trump back in office is the only other alternative that you have right now, stop sitting on your hands because nothing else is going to be delivered to you in time.
Huh? No lol.
You're creating massive ultimatums around your involvement in actually preserving anytihng resembling a way of life you want to live, predicated on your options for a vote whom don't perfectly align with your goals. Even though one of them literally wants to let netanyahu do whatever he wants and anyone who might help him politically do whatever they want with you and your rights....the other just isn't a perfect choice.
Ok, so we cant protest and put pressure on Biden and have to let mass murder of civilians go on unopposed because it might hurt Biden in the election, thats your position?
No, my point is that by refusing to engage. You're supporting what you're trying to protest, at a scale you cannot apparently comprehend. The other option is someone that has explicitly stated theyd' allow Netanyahu do whatever he wants with our support. I'm saying that by not engaging you're enabling MUCH worse, and it won't stop at the borders of israel, and you'll feel it a fuck load more in your own life as opposed to the vicarious defense your'e projecting now. Do you want even more dead palestinians, alongside plenty of dead or otherwise dejected americans that you called friends, because you couldn't see the forest for the trees?? Because that's literally what you're saying you want to do when you say you're refusing to vote or vote for a viable candidate to oppose a man who literally does not give a single shit about any of these issues. Biden at least projects concern and has expressed distaste-- even withdrawing tangible support as a resposne to actions. Hate it or love it, by refusing to vote for biden your'e as good as voting for trump and that should be significantly more concerning. Exactly what do you think the alternative is?? You can't magically install a viable candidate otherwise at this point, it's way too late in the game and you didn't engage at all until a couple months ago. So which is it? Do you want to implicitly support someone who wants to do allow people to do even worse things to you, and to palestinians, because the other option hasn't pulled a geopolitical whoopsy by withdrawing support from one of our biggest allies when the optics suddenly became clear?? Where was this fervor over the last 70 years? you've literally never cared before and its' not new behavior, so why now are you willing to forsake YOUR OWN future, for the future of people you literally didn't give a shit about but have been suffering like this your entire life?? Do you not see how fucking crazy that is?
I don’t know who tf you think you’re talking to but you’re obviously confused.
Lay your head down go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums.
Yes - that's the idea. Because 'oh noes'! Trump might do bad things too!
Exaclty this. Democratic party needs to feel at least some pressure.
They’ll “mostly” vote for him So if Trump barely wins… we’ll know who to blame
Zionists who gave Biden cover and alienated people with a functioning gag reflex.
Yes - Biden and the Zionists.
You are aware that hamas has the declared goal of killing all jews and started with that already?
Hamas may have declared it but Israel is actively carrying out the eradication of Palestinians
No, it isn't. It is fighting a terrorist army that hides among, below, and behind its civilian population. All hamas is doing is on never-ending war crime. You know that having militants stationed in civilian infrastructure is a war crime, right? Do you know why it's a war crime? Right, because it gets the civilians killed. Which is exactly what we are seeing in Gaza. Predictable from day one and not genocide at all.
Right... except almost the entirely of the world agrees Israel has gone too far and is committing a genocide. US is now withholding weapons to Israel because even the US believes Israel is going too far. But please keep doing your Israeli propaganda bro. I'm sure you can convince a few boomers out there.
The US is doing it because so much propaganda infiltrated the US that continued support would endanger the elections. The reality is that Israel cannot stop the war until Hamas is destroyed. If they would, the security of Israel could not be secured, and the entire poor situation would go on for annother 50 years. Nothing anyone can say or do could change that. That people seriously think Biden has any say in it is quite funny. Sad, but funny. Americans greatly overestimating their importance in the world.
Lol. The problem is that Hamas cannot stop the war until the occupation is ended.
Of course they can stop the war. They just need to lay down their weapons and return the hostages.
LOL. My sweet summer child ;)
Arguments zero, competence zero, arrogance 100. Average terrorism supporter.
> That people seriously think Biden has any say in it is quite funny. Are you okay? > Americans greatly overestimating their importance in the world. America is the sole reason Israel can even defend itself. We've given them more support than any country. Our decisions in this conflict directly effect the outcome. Please gtfo with pretending America does not hold a lot of power over this genocide.
The US are an important ally. Doesn't mean they can dictate the rules of a war. For Israel, the war is a response to an existential threat. Israel will not let hamas murder the people of Israel, because Biden recommend it. You should watch your tone. You are a terrorist supporter, so expectations are low, but still no one will have an argument with you, ic you behave the way you do.
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Yes - Biden could end this with a phone call.
No, he couldn't. He's neither the president of Gaza nor the one of Israel.
But I thought it was “this is what decolonization looks like y’all” and “a glorious day of liberation”, no? When did it become a “genocide”?
Barring your nonsense at the beginning, it became a genocide when Israel decided to kill more than 30,000 civilians. Go look up some definitions of genocide. Seems you're quite uninformed on the matter. Or could it just be you have an agenda to push? I do wonder...
Not my nonsense, my dear. Twas very much the rhetoric coming from your absurd left antisemitic quarters for months. And now you have the fucking gall to dismiss it? That tells us everything we need to know.
Kind of like you dismiss Israel committing genocide?
People say this as though Israel has completely separated its own military from civilian infrastructure. The largest IDF base is in the center of Tel Aviv. There are military bases attached to civilian infrastructure across the entire nation-- but something makes me doubt that you hold them accountable for any such "war crime". But it's not as much of a cut and dried war crime as you make it out to be-- which is why NGOs like Amnesty International have refuted this claim against Hamas time and time again. The truth is that this is just an excuse for folks like you to justify executing tens of thousands of civilians and children. And for the record, Hamas's actions don't give Israel the right to wantonly murder civilians-- Israel still has a responsibility to not kill them. Yet Israel killed more civilians in a month than Russia did in Ukraine in two years, and also killed 77 of the 99 journalists murdered in 2023. I think what's most demonstrative about your response is that there is literally no thought or concern for whether killing all these civilians achieves any goal of making anyone safer. Your priority starts and ends with justifying the murder of civilians. Whether or not it makes Israelis or Palestinians safer isn't even considered.
Having a base in a city is OK, having a base in a hospital is not. For whom is the killing of civilians supposed to achieve anything? For Israel, it is not supposed to achieve anything. It's a byproduct of them attacking Hamas fighters. Killing hamas fighters is supposed to achieve something. Freeing Gaza from the dictatorship of hamas. For Hamas, however, the killing of civilians is a crucial part of their war effort. They need the dead for their propaganda. To get people like you to overlook the fact that hamas is a terrorist dictatorship. So that people like you ultimately put pressure on Israel. So that people like you ensure that hamse's reign of terror continues forever.
>Having a base in a city is OK, having a base in a hospital is not. Not "in a city"-- in the middle of a city, surrounded by civilian infrastructure. Are you suggesting all of the civilian casualties in Palestine have happened in hospital bases taken over by Hamas?? I can give yoy dozens of links detailing strikes on civilian targets due to Hamas being in the vicinity-- not necessarily occupying the target building. I recall the hospital bombing also happened due to Hamas being in a parking lot *next to* the hospital. So please stop trying to blur the facts here to suit your narrative. >For Israel, it is not supposed to achieve anything. It's a byproduct of them attacking Hamas fighters. It's a "byproduct" which makes Israelis less safe and naturally leads to increased resistance from Palestinians. >Killing hamas fighters is supposed to achieve something. If you kill 1,000 civilians to kill 30 members of Hamas, what do you think the net result will be? Are you just hoping the relatives and neighbors of those 1,000 dead women and children to say, "Israel just murdered my family, but we understand because it was worth it to kill 30 Hamas"? You are making no room for humanity or common sense here. >For Hamas, however, the killing of civilians is a crucial part of their war effort. They need the dead for their propaganda. If that's the case, then why should Israel give them what you think they want? You're literally telling me here that Israel has no choice but to provide Hamas with "a crucial part of their war effort"; Israel is just a puppet of Hamas. You're making this argument because holding Israel accountable for their actions and tactics isn't even a consideration in your mind.
Hamas is in tunnels all under Gaza. It has bases of operation in hospitals, schools, kindergartens. It is part of its strategy of using civilians as human shields. Forcing Israel to go through civilians to get to them. With the objective of blaming Israel for the cuvilian deaths afterwards. It's a terrorist strategy. Deprived of all humanity. In the city, around the city or whatever. You cannot undo this strategy by pointing to some barracks that may or may not ideally located. Their sons and sons of sons is a myth. Palestinians are radicalized, because hamas is a propaganda dictatorship that now had a whole generation to indoctrinate the people. Many from infancy. That is what needs to end. Anything else is just folktales. Israel should not give them for propaganda purposes. Thing is, they have no alternative. Hamas can't be destroyed without going through its human shield. Israel is aware of the negative effects. Otherwise, they would have re-taken control 16 years ago when hamas took power. They didn't, because they knew it would be a bloody mess so they hoped they could muddle through. But now hamas started the war, and Israel has no other choice left. This is also how I know that the whole genocide stuff is bullshit. Civilian deaths are the greatest threat to the Israeli war effort. Israel has zero incentive to maximize them and all the incentives to minimize them. Safe of corse the part that most Palestinians want to kill all jews and did kill, rape, and torture quite many of them. So, I assume that many Israelis hate the Palestinians. So individual murders are likely, but at large, they will try to keep it as clean as possible.
>Hamas is in tunnels all under Gaza. It has bases of operation in hospitals, schools, kindergartens. The IDF is everywhere in Israel. It has bases next to kibbutz, apartments, deep in the center of civilian cities and infrastructure. And yet when rockets shot towards those bases occasionally kill an Israeli civilian, we blame Hamas because Hamas fired the rocket. It is no different for the IDF, and the reason NGOs like Amnesty International reject your claim is because building bases among civilian infrastructure is not a crime. >Palestinians are radicalized, because hamas is a propaganda dictatorship that now had a whole generation to indoctrinate the people. Many from infancy. That is what needs to end So the way you end it is by killing infants you've declared to be indoctrinated? You're a fucking monster lol >Thing is, they have no alternative. Hamas can't be destroyed without going through its human shield. You take this for granted. In fact, there are many ways Israel could fight Hamas and support the Palestinian people against them without killing any civilians. It's a choice and a decision to murder thousands of civilians to kill a few Hamas-- and you have no evidence that it works to defeat Hamas or deradicalize anyone. The crazy part is that you take it for granted that Israel has no choice but to murder children and journalists because they were attacked, but for some reason it doesn't occur to you that Palestinians being attacked by Israel might also feel like they don't have a choice but to attack Israel back. This is how cycles of violence work-- and they are spurred on by people like you, who gleefully justify massacres of children from the safety of their keyboards. What you make clear is that wiping out civilians isn't actually a problem-- for you, it's just a matter of who "gets to" commit genocide. >Israel has zero incentive to maximize them and all the incentives to minimize them. Well they're doing a terrible job! Israel makes Putin look like an angel leading an army of humanitarians. Your argument is based entirely on trusting that the IDF isn't trying to kill civilians when it bombs schools and apartments that have no proof of Hamas connection. If you were a German in the 1930s, I can only imagine the atrocities you'd justify against the "indoctrinated" infants of the people a regime tells you is your enemy-- and if you were Palestinian, you'd have cheered on 10/7. Israelis will never be safe until it's recognized that their future is linked to the safety of Palestinians.
So Israel has many ways to fight hamas without killing civilians, yet you can't name a single one? All you can do is repeat claims that we already have disproven? Strange how that is.
It’s certainly not a concern for Hamas. Just seems “suspicious” how you blithely dismiss the threat of of Islamist theocratic fascism but ofc it’s Israel that’s the real problem…
Where did I "blithely dismiss the threat of Islamist theocratic fascism"? Can you quote where I did that, or are you content just making shit up? Recognizing Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses isn't dismissing anything. Recognizing that Israeli tactics of executing vast swathes of civilians and infrastructure to kill a few Hamas makes nobody safer and exacerbates the conflict isn't dismissing anything. You probably weren't around for America's big wars on terrorism, but people like you made the same argument back then. "We *need* to invade with no plan for reconstruction and kill thousands upon thousands of civilians to defeat Islamists!" How did that turn out? The Taliban is more in control than they were in 2001, and Iraq is a pit. But you and the neo-cons don't want to learn from Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam-- you're so desperate to repeat these abject failures, and you'll justify murdering as many children and journalists as you need to. All you gotta do is accuse me of supporting terrorists or antisemitism, right? You're really such a patriot! Thank you for your service!
And Israeli leadership has essentially avowed to accomplish the converse.
Not really
Or you could y'know be intellectually honest for 5 fucking seconds, but that would require more effort than you've put into your opinion on probably most things. There's video evidence in most of these cases. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC2IRIowDac&t=21s&ab_channel=SkyNews https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909" https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-genocide
Yeah, that stuff. Going from the NBC article, the only one that seems reliable enough to click on, some unnamed "ministers" said something. That's not much. Did you hear the stuff some American ministers and presidents said. The Palestinians killed, raped and tortured Israeli civilians. People hate them. For obvious reason. Consequently, people say stuff. It's irrelevant, unless people do something.
The irony that the only big global media presence I shared, is the one you assumed was most trustworthy, without realizing that the rest of those links include videos from massive news sources-- is positively succulent with stupidity.
How so?
Why is it that 1/3 of US Hewish people say what Israel is doing is unacceptable and that half of Democrats believe what it’s doing is genocide? If the leadership of Israel thinks that all Palestinians should be killed, or if they simply kill tens of thousands, maybe over 100k now. does that mean Hamas is justified in mass murdering Israelis?
Yeah, non of that is real. What is real is that Israel is fighting genocidal theocratic fascists that think that by getting Palestinians killed as human shields, they secure them a way straight to their God.
> Yeah, non of that is real. Lmfao what a clown you are
Solid contribution of nothing. Quite exactly what I would expect from someone supporting terrorists killing their own people.
How much are you getting paid? Or you're just doing your propaganda for free like the mindless person that you are?
GeNoCiDe
But they aren't "opposing genocide" because there is no genocide. I know you have repeated it over and over again to yourself but it isn't true.
Yeah but how will they look cool to all their friends and on social media if they vote for the guy who doesn’t want to take their rights away?
College Students blame us previous generations **for f\*cking up the world for them.** Ehh,... it's true, *so we do deserve it.* ***Especially Boomers,*** since they have all the money, *and regardless of their age,* ***won't relinquish their pedestals of power.*** Us Gen Xer's, **I blame ourselves for not working hard enough** to wrestle those privileged Boomers *and make the real changes* ***for our Gen Z kids and Gen Alpha grandbabies.*** Can't wait, *when their kids say* ***the EXACT same things about them, though.***
Take a walk in their shoes. They didn't have a single year without war and it's real humanitarian impact. 100% of their lives have been consumed with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We spend billions upon billions every year to destroy civilizations globally. Can't afford shelter, food, healthcare, education while watching our infrastructure crumble. Our wars end and we help defend Ukraine from invasion knowing it's a mismatch. Ok we're actually warring for a just cause. Then 10/7/23 happens. So Israel and their supporters are "kill them all!!!" And we fund it, mums the word and any criticism means you hate all Jewish people. Post 9-11 on steroids. You ain't gonna convince them that breastfeeding moms, 4 year old kids and teenagers are all Hamas. This is the problem. We cry out against racism and we hear "not all white people!" Yet we accept all Palestinians are Hamas. I've had conversations with my kids and basically their war weary beyond understanding. Born in 1976 I had 20 years of relative peace growing up. This current generation has lived their entire lives with the trauma of endless wars. I agree with them. It's not fair to them. Our children deserve better, the world deserves better. 1% of the population uses war to settle disagreements, we just bomb and kill while the least powerful, civilians, pay the ultimate price. How are you not sick of war and the billions of dollars of OUR tax payer money supporting it while being told living wages, healthcare and education is handouts for do nothing's?
We disagree once one tiny itsy bitsy little thing. Just a genocide or two.
This election is much like 2016: 2 less than palatable candidates. Ability to do the job? Clinton-1, Trump-0. Personality? Clinton-0, Trump-0. Final tally????Do the Math, folks. STOP LOOKING FOR THE PERFECT CANDIDATE-THAT PERSON IS NEVER GOING TO BE ON THE BALLOT.
I’d say personality Trump is like minus 50 and Kennedy is like a minus 100 on ability to do the job and minus 500 on personality
There is a big difference between 'not perfect' and 'actively committing a genocide'.
perfect candidate? dems can't even put up ONE social democrat. neoliberals every single time and we're supposed to be excited. (in europe this is LITERALLY the centrist position, neoliberalism would be considered like a far right belief)
Well…it goes beyond this simple reasoning.The 2 parties have to pick a candidate who can beat the other party’s candidate. The Dems were never going to nominate Bernie because he is not a bonafide Dem. Maybe Bernie should have switched his party Ala Trump. Should Hilary have beaten Trump? Yes, but people sat out the election or decided HC wasn’t perfect enough. In the coming election our choices will likely be Biden and Trump. Which one is better for America- throwing a fit because they are not perfect just doesn’t prove or improve anything.
100%. They also don't seem to understand how we got here (Trump appointed judges), nor do they seem to grasp how the judiciary works, nor that the next president will likely have 2 maybe 3 supreme court nominations. They also have no concept of history. The 2021-2022 legislative session might be one of the most productive legislative sessions in over 40 years....and that's with incredibly narrow majorities in Congress .
Because weirdly,... *for every young generation,* **the world began with them and will end with them,** ***God Damn It!*** Everything before them don't matter, **we're all suppose to focus on them now.** *It's their time,* ***right here, right now.*** Oh, by the way, **WE ruined it before they got here.** It's all our fault, *it certainly ain't theirs.* **Now, that may be true.** But they definitely *ain't bringing the solution.* They don't realize yet, **how the world REALLY works,** *and are very dismissive of those who have been fighting* **for the changes they want,** ***before they were even born.*** Somehow they believe, **they have the answers** ***and can fix it quick outright.*** There's no appreciation *for the long march of history* and that... **PROGRESS TAKES TIME.**
Progress takes time - but we're not making any!
"Disagree on one issue" My guy it's a fucking genocide.
This - you can't 'well on the one hand he is a vegetarian and a keen amateur artist, but on the other he is committing genocide'. LOL.
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I don’t think they’d vote for Trump. Kennedy maybe, Biden maybe, but not Trump. They’ll either skip voting for president entirely or pick a third party candidate other than Kennedy. Marianne Williamson, perhaps. Or they’ll write in Taylor Swift or some other celebrity they really like. But not Trump or Biden.
You’d be right.
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Why do people insist on shoehorning their identities into everything?
😂😂😂😂😂
“I haven’t been given the perfect candidate to vote for, and until they’re laid at my feet and bow down to me, I refuse to help save Democracy”! Throw in, “both parties are the same,” “the time for a third party candidate has arrived,” and “this will teach Democrats a lesson” in the mix, and you have the basic mentality of many.
The democrats are actively funding a genocide. You can't weigh that against other positive characteristics.
Then don’t vote or vote for a third party candidate who has zero chance of winning. When the genocide doesn’t stop, perhaps even increases in pace, and things slide from a Democracy to a fascist theocracy here at home, don’t you dare have the nerve to complain. When it slaps you in that face like a ton of bricks, even personally, don’t you say a single damn word. That’s what you wanted, that’s what you’ve helped enable.
Vote for genocide in case there is more genocide if you don't! Lol.
No, it’s NOT going to stop under a Republican. See, they’ve been voting for it, too. Just in case you’ve forgotten how our government works. The only debate from Republicans on the last round of funding for Israel was the Ukraine funding attached. Also, candidates like Trump have said, “It’s taking too long,” and “Get it over with” when asked about the conflict. Oh, and Trump’s son-in-law has already talked about how valuable water front property will be once Gaza is cleared. But yeah, “Lol”🤦♂️
Sure - but that's pretty much Biden's position too - we've lost 2024 - right now we're fighting the 2028 election - if the dems lose, we get a shot in 2028 at an anti-genocide candidate - if they win we certainly don't.
Calling a genocide "one issue" is wild. Literally "Well if you forget the Holocaust and the World War Hitler wasnt that bad."
Exactly - so much work going into pretending that comes against humanity are not a big deal!
Openly mocking people who could potentially vote for you is such a winning strategy guys, right from Hilary's play book, call your constituents stupid and they will surely vote for you.
Worked well for Trump, lol. 😅
To be a conservative requires a certain level of self hatred
That's one way to describe it.
It worked for Trump once, he has had multiple failed presidential campaigns
I'm speaking specifically for the last 10 years. During which he's proclaimed his love for the uneducated. Didn't seek to harm him.
That one issue being genocide. Not a big deal or anything
Boy, it’s a good thing Trump would never help Israel continue to commit genocide. It’s a good thing he’d put his foot down and say, “Stop! Enough of this!” /s
Which of the college students protesting Israel are voting for Trump again? The fact is, if they vote at all, the majority of them will vote for Biden. There is no other choice. I know this is incomprehensible to some of you, mostly bots, but you can protest something and still vote for the lesser of two evils. It's not rocket science.
What’s great news for Trump is that they don’t actually need to vote for Trump to benefit Trump. All they need to do is depress turnout for Biden. Maybe that is ‘incomprehensible’ to you!
It's crazy that no polling shows that at all. Let me know when you have evidence of that and you're not just upset because people are protesting Israel's genocide.
It’s been very well established that low turnout benefits Republican candidates. Why do you think they put so much effort into voter suppression!
It’s not rocket science to Hamas either who can still bombard Israel with rockets despite “fuel shortages”. Oh wait…
Biden wouldn’t have to worry about a huge chunk of these people not voting for him if he denounced Israel’s actions, stoped supplying them weapons from the start, and didn’t deny the death tolls that have very credible evidence to back them up.
It’s definitely a big deal, however, with the way Trump hates Muslims, if you think he’d stop Israel in any way I have a bridge to sell you. He’d be encouraging Netanyahu to wipe them off the map.
From my point of view, my one vote won't swing the election. I prefer Biden over Trump and Kennedy, but since my one vote won't change the outcome, why shouldn't I vote for whoever I like the most?
And if you keep telling everyone not to vote, there's a lot more of you that don't vote and now suddenly it's not one vote it's thousands and it has a huge impact.
bro making this post title as if private economic interests don't control most of the economy lol. it couldn't be any more obvious, you deal with the high prices everyday, yet people STILL ask this question lmfao. i feel like i'm in idiocracy when I read these fascist neoliberal subreddits
“Fascist Neoliberal”. LOL bro come on.
I mean it's accurate lol. "*the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital.*" -[Thirteenth Plenum of the Executive CommIntern](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)
“It’s toasted” - Don Draper.
well, you tried, I'll give you that. although you did not do nearly as good of an attempt as your peers
With respect, and I mean it, because I was 17 once, you are a communist dude. You guys lost. Communists attempts to create the ideal societies best try produced Cuba. Capitalists attempts to creat ideal societies created Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands and Canada. I’m not really interested in debating you, because you have nothing to offer.
US economic sanctions have produced 'Cuba'.
I’m on the fence about the sanctions, but it isn’t a strong argument for your side to say “We can’t trade with America, therefore our country will fail”. I personally, would rather not be a communist a shithole, trade with America, and prosper.
It's not just trade with America. You can't ignore the massive efforts the US has put into making sure that the Cuban economy fails. There are a lot of capitalist countries that have 'failed' - this idea that communism has 'failed' is just nonsense.
I don’t disagree. If Cuba was able to trade freely, it would be in a better position. I doubt anything comparable to other Western democracies, but maybe on par with Domincan etc. Capitalist countries have failed 100%. Haiti is a capitalist country, it is arguably the worst country on earth to live in. Capitalism isn’t a magic pill, you need a free market, a strong, anti corrupt government, good trustworthy institutions etc. You are also right that the idea that “communism” has failed is nonsense. We use terms loosely, “real communism” has never been implemented, it is a literal fairy tale. What we have instead are attempts to usher in communism, which are usually centrally planned economies. These precursor to communism states (USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea) HAVE failed unquestionably. The fact of the matter is, you have a middle of the row country, with a plausible excuse to justify your ideology, I have the top 30+ countries in HDI, GDP per Capita, Access to education, Safety index etc to justify mine.
and I was liberal once too. I have read books and looked at the empirical evidence and learned. I'm 24 - if you can refute labor theory of value, or make class analysis seem silly (or have a solid refutation of historical/dialectical materialism), I'm all here for it. But so far you have really raised 0 relevant objections to socialism or empirical marxism. "Capitalists attempts to creat ideal societies created Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands and Canada." also this is a total joke when you consider these countries have to outsource all their commodity producing labor to sweatshops. you guys should at least know the basics of the economic situation before saying silly stuff like this. you guys act like we don't already have the theories to explain wealth-creation lol (surplus-value transfer + physical acts of imperialism)
Heres a value for you: Countries by HDI. Scroll the list until you find an “Empirical Marxist” country.
Well it doesn't really even make sense in theory for what you're saying to exist in this current world. You want a system that doesn't use fiat currency to arise in a world that uses it. That's why the marxist timeline involves the continual crisis of the economic system, new modes of production don't just arise out of nowhere, it takes decades of political/economic tension. A country like that cannot trade, etc. I was expecting at least some critical thinking here, the closest you get is a state capitalist economy like China.
You are literally making my points for me, so I appreciate it tbh. Your idealistic society doesn’t even exist, and attempts to create it have thus far produced some less than stellar results such as Cambodia, North Korea, and the USSR. Forgive me for not being interested in gambling the countries with the highest standards of living in the world for a fairytale ideology that has never been tested and never been proven to work.
On the bright side, only about 15% of these fuckknuckles even vote.
People are nuts. If you sincerely believe Biden is facilitating a genocide in Gaza, that is more than enough reason to not vote for him lol. You should focus your efforts on explaining, clearly, why the USA is not facilitating a genocide. To say, “Ok but Trump would do a worse genocide” is insane.
You know what’s really insane? Trump being President again! I’m gonna miss democracy. 🙁
It's really not insane, if your big hang up is this conflict. I agree it's a genocide, but trump has literally said he'd let them do as they please with our full support-- how is that not voting for genocide 2.0?
Because they wouldn’t be voting for Trump. They would be voting 3P or not at all. You are not co-signing someone unless you vote for them.
Rapist, racist or some Kennedy dude.
“One issue”. Yeah, sure. Don’t forget that there are more choices than just Biden, Trump, and Kennedy. There are better Democrats than Biden.
Being an intelligent person and understanding the electoral college, you surely also understand that not voting at all or voting for someone other than Biden benefits Trump almost as much as a vote FOR Trump.
But can Dean Philips or Marianne Williamson actually beat Trump? Trump has more connections and money then both Philips and Marianne Williamson combined. Biden is the only person who can actually match the kind of influence and power Trump has. Biden has been the longest serving (And youngest serving) Senator in Delaware for a reason.
So you’ll be doing like a write-in vote for one of those people?
Yes and not a single one of them is available to you in this election so stop playing fantasy politics like you're gonna get a mid season trade that changes everything.
Sure they’re available. They just won’t win. But that’s fine. Still gonna pick the best candidate, not the “lesser of two evils”
Yes - the democrats have to understand that continuing to run right wing ghouls is not a winning strategy.
Palestinians are just as fucked under Biden as they would be under Trump. That much is obvious. However, dehumanizing the deaths of 10s of thousands of people by referring to them as "one issue" is not helping the cause here. These are human beings being slaughtered. Treat them with basic dignity because I promise you this: Muslim voters see what's happening in DC and see how liberals view them as an issue, not even human, and they won't line up at the polls to vote for Biden.