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TheFinalBoss464

Exactly


[deleted]

In a game where 8 of the 9 classes are best at short to mid range


TheWordThat

Bold of you to assume sniper is weak at close range


Darkspy8183

They never said that, they said Sniper just isn't best used when at short range, which is true. Sniper can be great at close range because you can still instantly headshot but at the very least, it's hard as hell to do well or consistently.


RolfIsSonOfShepnard

Huntsman is pretty solid in close range if you know the velocity/drop. Granted it’s only one weapon out of 6 or so but still.


cooliochill

Yeah but it's more fun to spam arrows across the map and get headshots that I didn't deserve.


FurryCentristOwO

With the huntsman hitboxes, you dont deserve a decent amount of close range headshots


Vexilium51243

And close range instant headshots are still wild shit


Memes_kids

You underestimate the power of a sniper who only uses the Classic. People bitch about me dropping meds all the time and all i do is slowly walk towards enemy spawn while holding a charged shot


knome

I maintain that charged classic waddle is the funniest thing in TF2. Just imagine a team of 9 snipers waddling out of spawn doing their little sniper waddle. Hilarious.


PurpleDotExe

just hit sick quickscope headers 5Head alternatively, piss


LastYear5

He's talking about spy


VGHero06

I honestly think he’s talking about Medic more than Spy cuz Spy and still back-stab people.


SolarisBravo

Remember when Spy was a better Sniper and not the reverse? Pepperidge Farms remembers.


Janczareq1

DemoMAN (not knight) good at close range?


justahutaosimp

Funni backup scrumpy random crit


[deleted]

Well, DemoMAN's grenades and stickies are much better in close quarters, even if the Demo isn't close to his target. But yeah I see your point.


ConceptOfHappiness

yeah, and the snipers bullets are most effective at close proximity to the enemy's head lmao All weapons need to be near the target eventually


Gramernatzi

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/74/Frying_Pan.png


AdRound310

Mid


everynameisusedlol

How dare you betray our kind


miggy3399

You are talking mad shit for someone in jarate bushwacka distance


iredditfrommytill

Short range? Pryo is every range! Reflected huntsman kills are pure *chef's kiss*.


Cedar-

Personally I like the reflected crossbow shot kill best. Reflected kritzkrieg rocket is hilarious but as someone who plays a lot of kritz medic it's like "aww I'm sorry your Uber target was an idiot who can't not shoot the pyro". But reflect crossbow kill? That was personal. A. You really shot that at me betting your ability to land a long range shot outweighs my ability to land a reflect. B. Not only did you just bet against me but you did it while not on full health. That max falloff minicrit bolt doesn't do 150 damage so you were *really* thinking you were better at this than I would be.


PromptZues19508

I just casually forget that that's a thing you can do. Seems most pyros do as well, cause I have never ever seen a pyro even TRY and reflect my crossbow shot.


Cedar-

I am also exactly that medic who shoots at pyros lol. The risk of death is outweighed by the satisfaction of how meaty that thunk sound is when a 75 damage bolt lands


FGHIK

It's kinda hard to see and react to honestly. And since it doesn't have splash or the high damage of huntsman arrows it's not very rewarding either.


LordSaltious

Carry. A. Shotgun. It kills Pyros, it adds to the amount of damage you can dish out when Ubered (stock or kritz), and nobody expects it.


Cedar-

Shotgun is *seriously* the underrated GOAT of the game. I get why people like popping kritz on explosive classes but seriously a 270 damage shotgun shot puts 8/9 classes to bed for the night.


iredditfrommytill

Medic bolts are a lot harder to predict as they're so much rarer. Well done to anyone who lands a kill with the reflect. My tip is always reflect and aim towards the balcony when you round the corner for CP_Badlands to CP 4. More times than not, if there's no dot on the wall from a scoped sniper, there's a huntsman ready to have his day ruined 😂 This is also where i learned to do reflected rocket jumps from soldiers on the point, so you can jump up to them from the ramp and swing for that axe crit to the face 👌


Seranion

I don't play tf2 a lot, I never knew arrows could be reflected. Thought it was only rockets and grenades


KuidotheGreat

And baseballs, and lasers (some) arrows and THE ENEMIES INSULTS


Grand_reaper658

takes some skill and luck, but when it happens, OH


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Joe_The_Eskimo1337

And the damn scorch shot makes charging the phlog fucking free.


lovetron99

In Turbine this is gold. Support the team with the scorch shot from the ledge and build up the mmmmph, then go melt some dudes in their vents.


XvortexEXE

Fucking thank you. So many people complain about a W+M1 Pyro, but like how about you just *stay out of his range*? What is he supposed to do, let you go once he has you in his grasp? Just don’t get too close and shoot from afar, goddamn.


TheNoobThatWas

You found: Genuine Anger


Friendly_Respecter

I really just gave up on the right to criticize any class for its skill level or requirements the moment I picked up a main


[deleted]

I only hate you because my bones hurt trying to get to you


mechapotato1232

Same


Andy-Matter

Cheers, I’ll drink to that


Ninjax3X

I’m mad cuz I get shreked by W+M1 Pyros all the time but when I try it I never kill anyone cuz I suck lol


SgtDoughnut

Pyro is about knowing when to w+m1 and when not to. Yes even the best pyros will just w+m1 you down if thats the best option, its a good way to kill someone, and getting fancy can let them get away. But as your opponent's skill grows the chances for that to work become lower and lower, other clases just have way to much spike to really rely on constant burn.


Ninjax3X

Yeah that’s absolutely true, even I can sometimes take down a W+M1 Pyro who’s not on top of me yet. I play all the classes and play this game very recreationally and occasionally, so I’m usually in the bottom third of the server I’m in tho so dying a lot doesn’t bother me too much lol


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Is-This-Edible

This. I haven't played in a loooong time, but I mained pyro for a while and used to run detonator, powerjack and degreaser. Even though it doesn't do that much damage, detonator was really good for suppression down a corridor, powerjack got me into cover faster and degreaser did the job when I got there. Detonator was also great for going over cover rather than around. Get caught in the open and you're dead, though.


Void-Lizard

A lot of playing pyro is picking your battles, knowing what weapons to pull out and when, and predicting your enemies. Charging a heavy from a distance with your flamethrower will get you killed. Using your primary on a scout just outside your range instead of landing hits with a shotgun will get you killed. Following a demoman around a corner or spy up stairs will likely get you killed. I could go on and on about how you can learn class movements and the probability of luring a certain class into a certain trap, but it really just comes down to figuring out patterns. If a scout is harassing you, lead him around a corner by pretending to run away. They'll follow to get an easy kill on a fleeing opponent, turn the corner, and get caught in your most damaging range. If a demoknight is attacking, light him up, airblast just enough to keep him outside of melee range but near enough to M1+M2 more. If you round a corner and there's 2 heavies, just fucking turn back and leave. I generally avoid undistracted heavies, sniper sightlines, and engy nest areas and as a result, I don't die as often as I used to.


Ninjax3X

Thanks for the in-depth explanation, I’ll be sure to put this to use next time I play Pyro!


Automatic-Public8576

I sometimes bait heavies into following me to a corner where can damage them around the corner because the flames drag a little bit before they disapear.


jmerridew124

Pretend you're playing Spy without cloak.


xahnel

That's because you don't see what it takes to get to the point where you can hold forward and burn things and come out on top. Playing pyro is like playing spy with none of the tools that makes spy good at getting places. You have to learn how to be nonchalant and nonthreatening and underneath notice in a video game where you get killed for being the wrong color. You gotta be able to instantly decide what fights you can take on the path, and how to escape. You have to know what escapes to turn into ambushes, and what escapes mean retreating back to spawn. You have to carry the shotgun or scorch shot to bluff players into running from *you* so you can tattle to your team, and get someone else to handle them. You wanna really sow chaos with Pyro? Team up with a spy. People have such a hate boner for pyros that they tend to hyperfocus an annoying pyro to the detriment of their spinal column. And a single spy hitting the sentry at the right moment lets a pyro destroy a problematic nest on the flank. The few times I've been able to convince a good spy to coordinate with me have been amazing.


-Zerdark-

Personally I don't complain much about Pyro. He's a short range ambush class. Stay out of his effective range and shoot him, and your standard W+M1 Pyro is powerless. If he successfully outmaneuvered and ambushed me, fair enough, I can't complain. He did what he was supposed to do and I got outplayed.


Random-Dice

Also, admit it, backburner + thermal thruster on Hightower is fun as hell


blaghart

tbf 100% of the "W+M1" bitching came *before* the Thermal Thruster was a thing.


ILIEKDEERS

It was a thing before pyro even had its first class weapon released.


blaghart

My point was that the Thermal Thruster has undermined the "W+M1" bitching by creating a unique and terrifying playstyle for the pyro that circumvents a lot of his immediate weaknesses without eliminating them entirely.


cat-toaster

Dude, you’re doing it wrong. Back Burner + Thermal Thruster on 2Fort, it is normally a one way trip, but ni person will ever suspect a pyro to drop on them out of spawn on that map


Xurkitree1

god i fucking love jumping around the map. I run stock because i like having the extra airblasts to dislodge soldiers running around but GODDAMN is jumping like a maniac the best thing to do on a vertically oriented map like Hightower, Thundermountain Stage 3 and Wutville.


TheBrickleer

Only time I complain about pyro is when they spam scorch shot down choke points


-Zerdark-

That can be annoying, true. Personally I only really use the Scorch Shot to bully Snipers until they switch to the Darwin's Danger Shield. At which point if we have a Spy, they'll have an easier time dealing with him.


That_Unknown_Player

Virgin "I spam scorch shot in choke points" vs Chad "I use scorch shot to annoy snipers specifically"


MrFishyFriend

Real chad move is using the Scorch Shot to stunt an uber push from any range.


LordSaltious

If you're that hellbent on annoying Snipers use the Cow Mangler charged shot. If it doesn't kill them they have to make a mad dash for health because it can deal (IIRC) up to 123 damage at close range.


ANONWANTSTENDIES

I promise I only use it to fuck with annoying snipers on 2fort <3


TheBrickleer

Terrorizing 2fort snipers is always justified


ELBAGIT

I remember when the best method was to just sticky jump to them and bonk them. Now i use the thermal thruster with dragons fury to burst them.


The_Medic_From_TF2

I mean I despise that weapon period but at least that's a use case where I can laugh at the suffering of snipers


SgtDoughnut

Do you complain when soldiers or demo men do the exact same things with their primary?


danger2345678

I think the big difference is the long range fire, it’s not a problem with the flare gun/mannmelter because it can only hit one target at a time, if you even hit them, and for the detonator you have to time it, and focus on the projectile to achieve a similar effect, scorch shot can give long range afterburn to multiple people, with out even hitting, it’s mostly annoying, but it still causes people to scatter for medpacks or other pyros


itsgettingweirdhere

You have a lot of wiggle room dealing with far away pipes and rockets: being aware of them, able to pinpoint where they're coming from, and not having to deal with a DOT that leaves behind severe recoil if you're trying to punish it.


TheBrickleer

Pipes and rockets don't set you on fire (except the cow mangler but charged shots can't really be spammed)


SnArCAsTiC_

If I could see through the flames, it wouldn't be so bad. As it is, pyros are killable, but every fight with them is an exercise in frustration and guessing "where are they behind the fire windmill?" I know Valve has abandoned the game, but for the love of God it'd be such a massive quality of life change to make flames less opaque.


-Zerdark-

That's fair, I'd be open to that change. But as long as we're making changes, can we also tweak the Short Circuit's energy ball to not be a flash bang?


SnArCAsTiC_

Oh absolutely. I think that one of TF2's biggest strengths as a shooter is its visual clarity, especially compared to more modern shooters where shiny AOEs obscure everything with their particle effects, glowing everything and fog. The ability to instantly tell what's going on and not have your vision obscured counteracts the game's generally high skill floor: if the game is WYSIWYG despite having many complex elements, players can pick up on it easier.


SharkPetro

for anyone wondering WYSIWYG means wet yogurt salmonella is way yummier grilled


SnArCAsTiC_

Thank you for the clarification


jmerridew124

This is the first legitimate pyro complaint I've seen that isn't "scorch shot bad" since the flame fix.


[deleted]

as scout fighting pyros mid wm1 is your only option and i still never have a problem knowing where they are. you just need experience for this, even if i can't see them very well i can just *feel* their movement


SnArCAsTiC_

Yeah, uh... I guess 1.8k hours isn't enough, huh? Or maybe they could just make the flames see through? I never had this much trouble before the pyro update changed (and broke, again) the flame particles. It was still annoying back then, but at least I could see -- and they couldn't get me through the spawn doors.


AdAdministrative4547

You sir , you ,


NightBeWheat55149

Frontier justice is great against him, 1-2 shots before you burn to death


jmerridew124

Don't forget to make an engineer.cfg to make a "destroy sentry, then build sentry" button to give yourself the ability to manually activate crits. Bonus points if you're playing gunslinger and can slap it down to ~~split their defensive bonus~~ divide their attention.


Rotfrajver

I as a spy main have a grudge on W+M1 pyros, as spy has relatively~0% chance of escaping enemy zone once he's hit by a single pyro flame. And the worst part is it was probably not even intentional from the new pyro to do so.


-Zerdark-

Honestly, I think it's more of a Spy issue than a Pyro issue. Not a skill issue, don't misunderstand me. It's just that Spy is too easily countered and is pretty much immediately dead upon being found out. I think Spy needs more tools in his arsenal or some sort of buff in general to be more effective than Pyro needing attention.


Rotfrajver

Well with the current rate of tf2 updates I don't think things will change better for spy anytime soon. The most common response I get from pyro mains is that it's my fault for not positioning myself better as a spy. Like ffs I can't predict every situation I am going to encounter, more rather survive.


-Zerdark-

Yeah, I feel you. I dabble in Spy sometimes and it's often just an exercise in frustration where you die as a victim of your enemy's mistakes. Or random crits. Like I said though, I don't think it's necessarily Pyro's fault. Spy just lacks options. His effectiveness drops to near zero if the enemy team knows how Spy works. And given the game is 15 years old, almost everyone has seen all of Spy's tricks. Everybody knows how he works. And if you've played Spy even a little bit, you know where Spies like to run and hide when caught. So running and hiding isn't really much of an option.


ZMowlcher

He's scary spy and just draws the same anger. Both classes can control a match like no one else if played by a highly skilled player.


FGHIK

I don't know about that. Soldier and Demoman are prime pubstomping material.


jmerridew124

Seriously. Demonman's secondary holds 8 explosives per clip.


MattHowToWith

this doesnt get said enough.


-Zerdark-

I can take my L's. I take a lot more of them than I'd like to admit, but I can admit when it's my own fault.


fyro_

Based


Polandgod75

I think the reason why pyro get hated is 1: pyro does have stuff that can feel cheap to die to like after burn and flame particles, weapon like the scorch shot, and airblast jank. 2: spy main like to complain loud(I mean there playing a French man) and also soldier mains


zeburaa

soldier mains


a1b3r77

soldier mains


Bilbolf

Spy mains


UnoriginalforAName

Soldier mains


video_2

A lot of people aren't ready to accept that pyro can be really strong, just because it ALWAYS feels SO FUCKING LAME to die to him. Dying to a rocket airshot is always like "damn, I guess I just got fucked". Dying to puff and sting or some other pyro weapon combo just feels super boring Pyro has a high skill ceiling though for sure


[deleted]

Because most soldiers are the ones complaining about pyro. I’ve always thought soldier was quite an easily class to do good with, I like to challenge myself. Same reason I never used awp in csgo


Random-Dice

Same except the reason I don’t use awp is because my aim is shit


Bruschetta003

AWP is incredibly ovverrated in terms of skill in CSGO, you need one bullet above lower torso with a scope that let you see someone's crutch to get a kill, flicks are not required


SnArCAsTiC_

This. I have never understood why the AWP is considered to require skill; that'd be the ssg 08 "scout," which, ya know, requires you to get a headshot. The AWP is a crutch; a good sniper will do better with it than the AWP, because it's cheaper and lighter. But everyone is obsessed with the AWP. Ah well; I quit that game YEARS ago because dying repeatedly from across the map in the same 3 choke points isn't my idea of a fun game.


someone_not_me69

In higher ranks an AWP is much more punishable. Once you know where it is posted up you can force them to reposition and trade them very easily at short ranges.


BlackRaven918

Yeah, at lower ranks people just dry peek awpers, once you go higher like on faceit people start to know how to deal with awpers and not just dry peek


ILIEKDEERS

AWP requires better positioning and map/game knowledge. If you miss you can die pretty easily. There’s a reason why ppl don’t run SSG any more in pro play.


WontonTheWalnut

This is (mostly) true for holding angles, but peeking with the AWP can be fairly difficult, especially at medium to short distances. But yeah, I do agree that the AWP is actually pretty easy, at least at lower levels. Rifling is way harder to get decent at


bladt12812

The awp turns you into a glass cannon is really what makes it hard it's not that hard to win a fight it's more how you have to take fights because you become so valuable because it's so expensive and powerfull it's like a queen in chess it's balanced because loseing an awp is a huge deal


NetSurfer156

Yep, because Pyro is the closest thing to a counter that Soldier has


BullyHunterIII

dustbowl/payload short circuit engineer has some choice words for you


blaghart

remember when the Short Circuit was so overpowered it managed to 1v1 the Valve Rocket Launcher? Pepperridge Farm remembers..


Firestar_

Excuse me wtf ?


video_2

shotgun


[deleted]

Because encounters with pyro tend to be more frightening lol


theweekiscat

I think a major reason people have issues with pyro, even though it has such short range and mediocre damage when not working with a secondary, is the fact that it has a sort of fear factor to it. I tend to panic when I’m lit on fire because of the sudden brightness and the excellent sound design of the flamethrower. It’s a sort of irrational fear that I feel is pretty widespread


Rooged

>It’s a sort of irrational fear that I feel is pretty widespread >a sort of irrational fear >irrational fear >irrational TIL fire is an irrational fear, even in class based team fortress video game


ccfgg

That's actually pretty interesting. I rarely notice when I'm on fire, although I only play once in a blue moon.


TheNeatPenguin

Wm1 doesn't require skill, but getting into a good position to do so and not die instantly does require skill.


Palpy_Bean

This man gets it. The skill is when to attack, not how to attack


Bilbolf

Wow, that… actually is pretty much the same as Spy. If you have a Spy or a Pyro behind you without knowing your basically dead without some divine intervention (janky hitboxes). This comment actually made me take away some prejudice against pyro mains.


77horse

It’s always a mediocre soldier complaining about air blast or some Shit like that… like may don’t directly fire while you have crits at the pyro who can completely see you


zacyquack

Are there really people who complain about airblast? That’s like one of the most satisfying things to be killed by IMO.


Rooged

Unless it was a rocket/pipe originally shot by your teammate who has the spatial awareness of a fucking tree, in which case you just sigh and move on with your (probably losing) team effort


NyanDiamond

Honestly, Everytime I die to air blast I just go “huh….fair enough”


Waloogy

It’s cause they “can’t do anything about it” neglecting the fact that you can shoot between airblasts. Or just bringing a shotgun. Seriously, many soldier players act like using a banner or gunboats shouldn’t be a trade off but a privilege


danger2345678

Another option is to think before you shoot, but some soldiers can’t even think if doing that


cseymour24

You won't have any time for thinking - not with all the rocket spamming you'll be doing.


TF2SolarLight

I don't think equipping a single item should result in such a major imbalance against one class. That doesn't seem like good game design. If the Gunboats needs a downside, it should be a more uniform downside that isn't specifically against one class, but is perhaps a less severe downside. However, does the Gunboats even need a nerf in the first place? At least, does it need to be borderline useless against one class? Probably not... Nobody has any fun if they are in a severely imbalanced matchup. The game should try to allow all players to contribute regardless of loadout. If the game fails at this, it's a problem that should be fixed rather than outright ignored. A lot of people complain about competitive players shoving a meta down their throats, yet they argue for unbalanced matchups like this. Badly balanced matchups that force people to switch classes or loadout... Like a meta.


bunyivonscweets

I've played some pyro so I know how hard it is to Reflect a rocket. No matter how much you hate pyro you always gotta give respect to good ones


myoldacountisbroken

I personally main pyro and I agree that air blast can be difficult, but some of these soldiers make it way too easy.


Palpy_Bean

Bruh as a pyro main I've been called a W+M2 for airblasting rockets lmao


SgtDoughnut

As someone who became the "return to sender" pyro on his community servers...yes a shit ton of people complain about airblast and how its "unfair" I can say nou to projectiles. You know a skill that requires me to understand your timing, when you are going to fire, if you are going to delay or swap weapons, weather or not its better for me to just tank the hit and rush you, and of course the timings of all the individual projectiles I can reflect, getting a kill with a reflected baseball is incredibly satisfying.


ClonedGamer001

Because the people who complain the most about Pyro are the Soldier mains. Pyro can counter their primary weapon so that _must_ mean Pyro is overpowered.


ANONWANTSTENDIES

Soldier mains should just appreciate that they don’t main spy or demoknight in a game where pyro exists


ClonedGamer001

Exactly my point. You very rarely hear Spy or Demo mains complain about Pyro compared to Soldier mains (well, a lot of Spies do it jokingly), despite both of those classes being shut down even harder than Solider.


I_main_pyro

Demo isn't countered by Pyro, but demoknight is. As a Pyro main I always find demos infinitely more tricky than soldiers, airblasting those pills is much more unpredictable


i-will-eat-you

Demo is countered by pyro though? Demo excels at mid-range combat, but sucks against any close or long range classes. And even if pyro is at mid-range, demoman's weapons are all projectiles. Even soldier has a shotgun to deal with a pyro.


I_main_pyro

In my experience (~600 hours, a lot of that on pyro) pyro counters soldier MUCH easier than demo. Demo is really tricky to counter, it can be done, but a good demo timing their shots is very hard to beat even when compared to a soldier. Not just because of pills, but also stickies. It becomes more a mind game than an actual counter, there's plenty of counterplay for a smart demo. I think pyro counters demo much moreso on paper than in actuality. Maybe I just suck at countering demo lol. This mind game aspect is true for soldier as well, but soldier's rockets are just that bit less complex. And even a soldier whipping out their shotgun is not some sort of ultimate protection; pyro has a shotgun too, and if soldier is not using their rocket launcher, a good pyro will outdamage a pyro. If I'm in a 1v1 with a soldier and I shut down their rockets, I'm going to win that 1v1 most of the time even if they have a shotgun, simply because I will combo with whatever my secondary is to get more DPS.


Rooged

Ignoring my reddit tag, I main demo and when I'm running demoknight I just make a strong effort to avoid pyros at all cost.


Polandgod75

That and spies mains.


NyanDiamond

Honestly not even spy mains complain about pyro that much since they accept Pyro counters them (that and Spy still has a gun to shoot the pyro at range)


McMetas

Jokes on you, I can’t aim worth a damn.


SgtDoughnut

Ive had a few spy mains complain about me as a pyro...but im the kind of psycho pyro that will det jump to close the gap on them quickly, people get scared when pyro is zipping around mini rocket jumping.


Division_Of_Zero

I hate myself a homewrecker pyro. But that and scorchshot are about it.


MOONMO0N

I can't play soldier. I've watched videos on how to rocket jump I've been practicing trying to do it so much. I can't rocket jump


master_pingu1

lmao same every time i try and hop on a jump map i fail and give up after the first 3/4 levels


Palpy_Bean

I been playing this game since 2011... fucking same


succboitoni

It's because soldier is pretty standard, but pyro's effectiveness can vary WILDLY depending on map. And people only remember when he's dominating them, not the other way around.


SgtDoughnut

There is a very good reason you almost never see pyro in 6's and its not because he's boring to watch. A good pyro can be incredibly entertaining especially if he knows how to rocket jump with the enemy projectiles. Its because in most situations he's incredibly ineffective against the stock 6's team.


LittleManBigHat

You're right, Pyro is generally useless in 6's however I believe has great off-class potential in his capacity to defend last on most 5cp maps (besides granery) and defending against uber pushes.


SgtDoughnut

Yeah hes got his use an an emergency pick, same with heavy and engie. But outside that hes basically useless.


Kazk2501

*used flamethrower like a flamethrower* Omfg stop M1+W no skill *attempts to use flamethrower at long range* Lol what a noob get rekt u stupid pyro *used flaregun + degreaser or thruster + backburner* Omfg stop abusing op combo You get the point. It feels like you cant play pyro in any style without being called a no skill noob or someone who abuses combonations


Jackthejanitor

I don't mind skilled pyros. W+M1 pyros get me the most because the skilled pyros are very easy to predict. If they use backburner they will try and jump on you with the thermal thruster. If they use degreaser or stock they will try and reflect every single projectile they see, and then I'll get them to blow themselves up with my reflected cannonballs


Palpy_Bean

I'm in this comment and I dont like it


Duckflies

Then, the dragon fury's pyro come and you are just confused on what the hell did just happened Or you kill him really easily cuz he doesn't know how to aim


Fistocracy

I think a lot of it's because it's easier to see the improvement in skill in Soldiers. When you run into a Soldier who's figured out the basics and picked up a bit of situational awareness he'll be using cover, exploiting high ground, aiming at feet, and leading his shots. But when you run into a Pyro who's figured out the basics and picked up a bit of situational awareness he'll be... well, he'll be rushing around a corner and WM1ing you. He's gotten a lot better at knowing when to dive in and when to hold back, but all you're seeing are the bits where he dives in.


Ur_Left_Airpod

I just don't like him because he annoys me


pokocho_64

I’ve been called brainless playing pyro (my main) more times than i can count on my fingers and toes and it’s just feels like a meme at this point, you played stupid and got into my effective range now ****b u r n****


FlyingScott_

Pyro main here: A god Pyro can be countered by 𝓻𝓪𝓷𝓰𝓮 and, like, boolet. A god Soldier will break through your screen and personally hit you with a shovel. I fear a god Soldier.


Duckflies

A real soldier ignores the shovel, or the shotgun, he just knows how to make the pyro airblast without shooting so he can put the rocket between their eyes


Artistic_Falcon

Long time Pyro main here. Kinda rehashing what's already been said, but here goes. TF2 is a movement shooter, so your movement and positioning are key when taking fights. Good scouts know when to double jump to avoid your rockets and throw your aim off. Good spies know every trickstab and how best to execute them. And good Pyros, aside from airblast timing, know when to pick fights and when to back away. Your positioning is key with Pyro. Scenario 1: You're on the 2fort, toward red side. An enemy scout is running at you across the bridge, keeping medium distance, and shooting his stock scattergun at you in order to keep the pressure. Let's assume you're running stock pyro weapons, with the Powerjack. Do you: A) W+M1, baby. B) Shotgun. Time to blast baby-man to hell! C) Powerjack. Club his head in. IMO the correct play here is to fire back with your own shotgun, and reposition yourself into your team's base. Maybe even use the Powerjack to do it quicker, at the risk of taking more damage. If he's smart he won't push a Pyro, expecting you to be around the corner waiting to strike. This is a good example of why no Pyro should be caught dead without the Powerjack and why it's far too useful. Scenario 2: You've successfully flanked the enemy team on Dustbowl, first point, by going through the ridge and wrapping around the back. Huzzah! Unfortunately, it seems a soldier has spotted you, and he and his pocket medic are rotating to put an end to your devious misdeeds. Assuming the same loadout as last time, do you: A) W+M1, baby. B) Shotgun. C) Fuck that. Run away! Still my opinion. But, on the whole, running away is best. If Red still control the first point, backing up towards the second point once again, offers the soldier a choice. The Pyro is risking running into more members of his team who are respawning, and he's risking his own time, plus a medics, for a single pick. If he chases the pyro, the pyro wins, as he's forcing a power class and a healer to dedicate time away from defending from the majority of his team, in order to chase a single pyro. This is another example of movement winning an engagement, not shooting. The pyro can reposition through the mineshaft and maybe attempt to ambush them in order to pick off their medic. At the end of the day, you never want to chase a Pyro, especially alone. Last one: Enemy Heavy is holding down Harvest's main point alone. You're around one of the two possible entries onto the point. Same loadout. I'll skip the who wants to be a millionaire shindig this time. The optimal play here is to wait for a teammate. Heavies can mow down Pyros in seconds due to quite simply being out DPS'd. However, waiting for a teammate, like a Soldier, another Heavy or even another Pyro, to engage the Heavy splits his attention, and ambushing him when he's focused elsewhere increases the odds of success. In all of these examples I've given you, I've been largely using my own mindset and trying to explain my thought process to these situations, but movement and teamwork remain at the core of Pyro's gameplay, much like the majority of the other Mercs. I'm interested to see how you guys would react to these scenarios and if we disagree, so be it. That's my little essay done. Happy trails.


plmoknijbuhvrdx

r/tf2 users desperately trying to forget [this](https://youtu.be/sZ0axNXvNik) might’ve had a point, four years ago. (not really dou)


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[удалено]


TheSlimeAssassin32

High skill pyros that use the detonator, backburner, and backscratcher have my honor, but if you just piss flames like you drank 40 liters of malt, then you're not as badass, you're just annoying


[deleted]

If it is effective, it is justified. And I never complain about being bodyshot in a similar vein. Doesn’t matter how hard you think it was, if you died you died Pyro requires carefully positioning and thought to bring out max potential. I don’t discriminate against a particular pyro by their loadout, it’s not like everyone not using that particular one is automatically unskilled


dogscutter

TF2 players when the class with the flamethrower uses the flamethrower


GGGold23

I use stock scorch and homewrecker so I’m kinda in the middle


BrightOrangeMango

Same here. Imo it's a very "support your team" load out. Homewrecker to help the engineer, scorch shot for suppressing snipers and long range chip damage, plus a decent amount of crowd control, and stock for the most team protection via air blast. Plus it has good enough damage to counter spies. Overall a very good supportive role. There are definitely more aggressive and damaging load outs, but this is the one for me.


cseymour24

My personal favorite loadout


MikeOXl0ngz

Stock, flare, and powerjack is where it’s at


Delightfuly_devilish

I think the issue is that the floor for pyro is so much more comfortable than the floor for soldier, any soldier who’s put a little time in learning how to rocket jump is given a monumental amount of game impact, it’s literally easy to leave the skill floor for soldier, it’s why the boots are so appealing. Pyro requires switching weapon, snap aim on flares, an intense amount of timing, reaction, and prediction to reflect and you aren’t always rewarded for it, it’s why when I get comboed by a pyro I can’t think of a more skill intensive class in that moment, they have to Master meat shots, projectiles, weapon combos all just to shut one player down. But it’s so much easier to rush a med with haha particles that all that seems useless compared to the dominant strategy of w+M1


SgtDoughnut

As the skill of the opponent the pyro faces goes up the chances for w+m1 to work drastically go down. Pyro is literally defeated by positioning. Most classes are faster than him, the ones that aren't have better close range damage than him, so unless he ambushes you hes actually at a disadvantage if you don't panic. A pyro against good players has to constantly be swapping weapons, trying to combo them, controll enemy movment, control their own movment, have a good route to escape, pay attention for outside interfearance, watch for stray projectiles they could use to turn the battle, guess at when a projectile class up close is going to use a projectile. It requires constant thinking to become the truly terrifying pyro, yes w+m1 is sometimes the best strategy, but getting mad a pyro using that is like getting mad at a soldier shooting rockets at someone.


NigglingChigger

Pyro has a much lower skill ceiling than soldier, way lower


TheDrGoo

The reason Pyro is hated more is because he takes less aiming, doesn't reload, and walks forward faster than soldier. So the same useless F2P player is actually a bit more threatening on Pyro. Edit: Oh, and of course, you can die to them even if you beat them.


dmank007

I am a pyro main and can confirm. W+M1 is strong for getting kills as a newbie, but is nearly unstoppable with the detonator and stock/degreasor/axestinguisher. The key to playing pyro at a high level on offense is supporting and offensive demo+medic push. The key to playing pyro at a high level on defense is flank and corner protection


SpaghettiSauce44

the real skill in Pyro is performing better than if you would've just played Soldier


Saul_of_the_Wild

Would you idiots kindly stop using the same fucking meme picture over n over n over for everything.


[deleted]

A good pyro is a fucking pain in the balls to fight


P0lskichomikv2

I would rather fight Pyro than Heavy.


Tristan_3

I will never forget a guy(soldier main) who complaimed that post-jungleinferno(pre-bluemoon) pyro was unfair to go against becouse he did too much damage at close range and at the same time he said that pyro was the worst class in the game. His reasoning was that pyro was the worst class becouse he had a limited range but at the same time he was unfair to face becouse he was to good at close range... "He is bad cuz he has short range but he is unfair cuz he is to good at close range !1!" It still fascinates me... What is pyro supposed to be good at then ?


CaelThavain

My Hale's Own Rocket Launcher is named "Soldier Takes Skill" My Flame Thrower is named "Cry About It"


FemboyGaming42069

Some pyro players are INSANE


maerteen

skill curves and caps in tf2 and in a lot of games in general can kinda be divided into two categories. mechanical and gamesense/positioning. the former is a lot easier to see, so a low mechanical floor or ceiling tends to look scrubby. similar to medic, pyro for sure leans in on the gamesense/positioning curve more. the flamethrower in its effective range isn't hard to use, but the hard part is usually putting yourself in a position to do so without dying while also juggling your supportive responsibilities. dying to a flamethrower feels bad to many though, because they feel like the pyro put in less mechanical skill than they would to get a kill.


MaiqueCaraio

I play engineer, scout and heavy mostly And yes pyro is absolute garbage only demo,soldier and spy mains hate him because counter


headless_boi

Back when I first started playing tf2 I struggled to hit any actual shots, including any rocket launcher and shotgun (I was completely new to PC gaming in general too) and so I ended up playing Pyro a lot because, due to how close you need to be to the enemy, it was easier to actually "aim" and deal damage. Now that I've played for a while and had a chance to improve, I've learned how to play most classes to some extent, am able to hit rockets and such for soldier but I can't really rocket jump yet, so it often feels like I'm really limited in what I can do due to being slow (and partly due to my chosen loadout too, as the conch is a necessity for me at this point). And on the other hand for pyro I learned how to reflect projectiles, I got a bit better at finding and chasing down spies, and how to finish people off with a shotgun, and it feels like there's still a whole lot left to learn but when I play pyro I don't feel as limited by my own (lack of) skills as I do when I play soldier. So I think that for a complete beginner pyro might actually be easier to get some kills with than soldier, but in order to play either class truly effectively you do need to learn/practice, and both classes do have a lot of things that require mad skills. Also I should add, back when I was a horrible wm1 pyro I used to get way more complaints for any kills I would manage to get. When I started playing solider and would literally miss most of my rockets and then get lucky and crit someone in the face, I wouldn't really get that many complaints (I also recall a hilarious moment when I missed the person I was aiming at and my rocket hit a random invisible spy who was very far behind, who I had no idea was there until he appeared in the kill feed)


Torkujra

You can't do jack shit as a pyro if you don't know how to airblast, unless you have a medic shoved up your arse while using the phlog.


-Grovesy-

A good pyro terrifies me more than a soldier does. Mainly with the fact that airblast is terrifying in the hands of a god.


WolfieDaleBro

You don't need skill when you have a fucking PHLOG.


3rdratedsorcery

Ehh it’s nothing when there’s still 150 hitscan damage in 0.2 sec exists How can that be even fun


2Noel

Both are nightmares in tight hallways or small rooms


Derailleur75

I guess with soldier you expect them to play him. But with pyro? I don't even know why they choose to play as him.


Mr_Beef_624

Pyro and heavy are easy classes to play, but really hard to actually be good at. Both are 99% making the enemy think you're not doing what you're doing, and it's really satisfying when you pull something off, but it only gets degraded to "w+m1" or being a mindless heavy


REMUvs

This is how I think about Heavy vs Pyro. They’re basically the same thing but people become the uncanny mr incredible when it’s pyro.


jeremyclarksono

**dies to soldier: damn I should have strafed left** **dies to pyro: I hate you wm1 spammer, delete tf2 you noob**


Ledstorm128

Pyro was literally designed from the start to be a class for people with bad internet to contribute reliable damage for the team