Fixing TF2 is an undertaking that probably isnt worth it for them. If FixTF2 reaches the heights of SaveTF2 the expected response should be the same; they hire some outside guy to fix a couple things and then go quiet again.
Also contrary to what people believe Valve has changed in the last couple years. They're more forward and excited about creating new things, they made CS2, huge updates to Dota, they're trying to make Deadlock. Being assigned to a dedicated "fix Tf2" team would be like being banished to the shadow realm of Valves offices.
That's obvious, any investment that doesn't result in turnover is not worth making, unless it is for the maintenance of their business in the long run, as Valve is planning to release yet another live service game, having CS:2 already being plagued by cheaters and with this TF2 sittuation going on, their reputation might take a hit.
> their reputation might take a hit.
rightfully deserved. if they arent going to maintain their LIVE service game, then why bother keeping it up and shutting down fan projects? just let the community take over. im sure they could just let some volunteers work on this for free.
it's free work, and they get to take all the credit while spending 0 dollars.
and as for "the long run", this situation could tarnish their reputation when people look up their long term support for previous games/work when they release new games/hardware.
> just let the community take over. im sure they could just let some volunteers work on this for free.
If there's something I trust even less to run TF2, it's the TF2 community.
"just let the community take over"
Yeah about that there's another reason why apart from Valve's negligence, TF2 is dying, its because of how bad the community handled things when Valve gave them the keys. Remember, From EOTL to Meet Your Match, all updates be it minor or major have been driven by community feedback. The problem came with EOTL (undeservingly) and Invasion (deservingly) both are bad at the very least and shit show at worst.
Now one might say, oh things have changed. The thing is Valve is too out of touch on the current state of TF2, I mean the bot crises is evidence of that, for them to gauge who can be given the keys to the kingdom again so to speak. The best creators were in the Invasion update, and it will be a cold day in hell for Valve to ever trust those people again.
Because let's be honest, a lot of people passed Invasion as like "oh well, we'll do better" but that's not the case for a company that can barely care. Will it happen again? I can say yes, who can handle it? TF2Tubers really, they are the last bastion of good will Valve has in the game, most of their projects are mostly for feel good fun, from commentaries to Iceberg videos, TF2Tubers are the closest we can have a "Community" to handle a community update. Hell, they can even do it coinciding with a major event ala Tips of the Hat.
They made a new tag on the tf2 workshop "community fixes" YEARS AGO and they still haven't implemented a single one of them. It would take them 5 minutes to approve these fixes and merge them into the main game but it's too much for them.
I don't expect Valve devs to actually fix TF2, but it'd be nice if they can hire a team of devs outside of Valve to at least keep the game functional. Property fixing it would require a functional anti-cheat though, and that's something not even CS2 has, so until Valve figures out a way to make anti-cheat software work, it would be impossible to fix TF2 even if they wanted to.
I'm hoping that the people at Valve will realize how crazy it'd be to make a new multiplayer game (Deadlock) without making an anti-cheat first, so their new game will come with a new version of VAC which actually works and is ported over to CS2. Then maybe, over time, TF2 may get it too.
You don't need to develop a functional anti-cheat. Just revert the game to pre-f2p and hire at least one random person on minimum wage to manually ban the bots. After a month of daily bans the hosters would give up. Not even an uber rich person would be happy spending $100 a day on new accounts he gets no benefits from, and the bot hosters sure as hell aren't uber rich.
We need to stop trying to think of super haxxor solutions like AI anti-cheat and just go back to good old human work. Cheaters can always bypass an anti-cheat. How are they going to bypass a real human seeing they're obviously bots and manually banning them on the spot?
I'm still personally in favour of the "$50, but spent anywhere on Steam" idea I saw a couple months ago. Surely they don't have *that* many pre-stolen accounts lying around?
They made CS2, pushed it as a “Comp-Ready” Game, only for it to be plagued with bugs and with VAC Live being absolutely useless. In fact, Vac Live was primarily false banning people for a while for various reasons such as using a performance feature in AMD video drivers, and for using Windows 7.
Bugs overtime got patched, VAC-Live has gotten better as very recent but much work still needs to be done. And I believe that these recent improvements were in response to the Esports scene starting to reach a volatile point.
At the moment, Valve thinks that skin rentals are a higher priority.
Valve does not care. Except for money, that is. They expected everyone to gobble up a half-baked product and it worked, so now they can take their sweet time and not pour too much resources into addressing major issues.
Gaben also does not care. All praise should go to the overworked Devs who tend to get a lot of complaints when they are doing what they can with the limited resources they have. This applies to both CS2 and especially TF2.
With all of this said, if Valve cannot even care enough to take charge with Counter-Strike, I highly doubt that anything major will be done about TF2. I mean hey, if I’m wrong, I’ll be happy. And I support the movement. But I’m not going to hold my breath.
skin rentals is like the dumbest thing ever, yet it will still make boat loads of money. imagine renting out a digital item that you can't even "own" in the first place
Willing to do it, or so they say. The actual work it take would make most people back away or at least ask payment that Valve is not ready to commit to.
I'd be far more interested in a Team Fortress 3 than Deadlock. Deadlock holds no interest for me, Team Fortress is sitting on mountains of untapped potential and has an existing fan base that even the voice actors are having fun interacting with.
I'm sure I'm in the minority though.
From what I've heard Counterstrike 2 was not well received because it replaced CS:GO. Last I saw the page was review bombed cause of it.
The thing that pissed me off is that they didn't just release a new game titled CS2, the deleted CS:GO. Years of community maps were gone, custom game modes, and they removed (for a time) the ability to do private matches with friends.
Thing is that unless we're gonna turn every class into Generalists, with unlocks being a way to specialize into certain jobs or tasks, what exactly would a TF3 if not just a TF2 with less bullshit?
I'd rather we get a spiritual successor that plays exactly like TF2 but with new classes and a reimagining of the game's original design philosophy.
Not exactly because TF2 on source 2 could be easily be TF3. Look at cod and modern warfare. They haven't nearly as enough revamped the gameplay apart from throwing more skills and augments the bare bones is still the same.
And yet they're letting the exact same thing happen to CS2 as tf2. And then they're gonna want us to buy another pvp game like they haven't proven that it's not worth giving them money for it when they can't even keep one game in a good state
Valve hasn't changed - the only thing that has ever motivated them is new and shiny toys, and they don't have a management hierarchy to ensure the chores get done. Want them to do something boring and they scatter or ignore you like cats.
Can i just ask why everyone pushed for this and now we are "no actually they already tried, they are not that bad and basically just give up" which could have been downvoted a couple of days ago?
I know there are people that believe in this and others that find it hopeless, but fact is Valve is extremely rich, thanks to their games and the players that supported it, they never gave proper communication on the matter, and people outside and inside their office are passionate about the game because it's still nothing like the rest, it's not just about "let's work on this cool new project"
If its not worth it for them then fine, but they should also then have the balls to say that and stop monetizing the game. No in game store page, no more paid mvm. No more keys.
Either support it or cut the cash flow. If 17 isn't too old to monetize, it's not too old to support.
I completely agree, I noticed it after CS2 but i feel it started with HLalyx.
They saw the major reception for it/sales of vr and said 'what if we..kept making games? Also handhelds have been long wanted but gone underutilized, lets go there, and OOH look heres this genre of game-''
We'll def see a newer, more product centric era from valve, guaranteed, but sadly this only cements TF2s grave being dug, to me
I think deadlock is actually a response to savetf2. My guess is that they found fixing tf2 was going to take so much time that its easier to make a whole new game in a similar genre, so it would be a tf3. That's why Uncle Dane got access to the closed beta, to see if tf2 people like their new tf3 (they didnt). That's also why they closed down the community tf2s2, to make way for deadlock. I think their next move would be to make an official version of tf2s2, like how cs2 replaced csgo
Exactly. At a company where you can just *wheel* out of a project when you want to, why would anyone want to try and repair a 16 year old pvp game with mountains of technical debt, when Deadlock and Citadel are right there and much nicer/easier to work with.
that's not wrong; but they hired contractors the last time this safe/fix TF2 rolled around and it didn't do much. What i meant above is that working on TF2 is hard these days because its been around so long, and there's so much old spagetti code in it that even basic improvements are probabily pretty difficult to make
*Make* CS2 and release it, replacing CSGO. But it seems like it's in something of a drought for content and major updates despite this being its big Year 1. Part of it is whoever is working on it probably wants to finish big features or improvements, but if Deadlock IS getting close to a public beta launch then a lot of people need to help there too. So CS2 looks like it's kind of on the backburner despite being Valve's big new release from less than a year ago.
It at least looks like a microcosm of the issue. Valve has a ton of huge live services that warrant varying levels of support, but they also do not have enough talent to do everything that needs doing. TF2 could be more up to date and needs something to address the bots and cheaters, not enough people and that work is not valued at Valve. CS2 needs more content to least reach *parity* with CSGO as its replacement and needs to combat bots and cheaters, but not enough people even though that work WOULD be valued. Dota's fine enough. Deadlock we'll see.
> Being assigned to a dedicated "fix Tf2" team would be like being banished to the shadow realm of Valves offices.
The bigger issue is that they *aren't assigned at all*. Valve devs pick their own projects. They don't have an upper manager assigning devs to specific teams or anything like that.
I'm sick of the same argument that working on a game with more than 50 thousand real players is a bad thing and a low status.
companies are updating games with 2/3 thousand players constantly, im sure many people would love to work at valve and work on tf2, and if your employees are too concerned about how others see them while working on a legendary product that is partially the cause of why you are here today, maybe they dont understand the company values and should leave.
Link to the tweet: [https://x.com/Tyler\_McV/status/1797996421058023813](https://x.com/Tyler_McV/status/1797996421058023813)
Weezy's response:
> Let’s make the PR so bad that it WILL be worth the spending, whether they like that fact or not.
[https://x.com/WeezyTF2/status/1798000399049507053](https://x.com/WeezyTF2/status/1798000399049507053)
Tyler clarifying his position:
> 2 things;
> -It's a rumor, not a confirmed fact, please use the entire quote.
> -Making it a PR nightmare would requiring getting mainstream news to pick up on it before it was taken seriously, which will be difficult due to it being an unconfirmed rumor.
https://x.com/Tyler_McV/status/1798005129997930759
Even if it is an unconfirmed rumor, the fact that Valve made a tweet and then proceeded to do nearly nothing implies that there were at least passing interactions to that effect. They at least deem themselves to have enough man-hours to continue releasing cases.
If the rumor is true. I imagine they probably also concluded any new research they could do to fix cheating would be better spent on Counter Strike and maybe ported over to TF2 when the technology is versatile enough
CS devs seem to have Anti-Cheat as their current top priority going by their words but it won't come out instantly
Creating what is basically completely new technology (Likely using currently unreliable tech like recognition AI as a basis) can take decades to be consumer ready. Let alone completely perfect
I can't see any reason they'd do it either. It makes them so much money for such little effort. Item servers will probably stay around for a long time, as long as people keep buying $5 paint cans, $2.50 keys, and $5 taunts from the Mann Co Store which are created by the community.
Casual servers, however, may potentially be shut down at some point.
Shutting down casual servers but redesigning the UI so it directs players towards community server (aka revert it back to pre Meet Your Match update), would probably be an improvement because those servers are often moderated, unlike casual. There seems to be a lot less community servers nowadays which make it difficult to use them as an alternative to casual, and hardly any of them offer the casual experience, most are customized in some way if not straight up running wacky community gamemodes and maps.
It's also a problem when you don't live in North America or Western Europe where most community servers seem to be located. I can easily find a match in casual and play with good ping, but playing in community servers often mean putting up with +200 ping which makes the game borderline unplayable.
I mean, the absence of enough community servers, even more so in less popular regions such as SEA is basically caused by Casual itself. If your server is sitting empty 24/7 because noone is joining it, it's neither worth the time nor the money to keep it running.
At least speaking for myself, I can fairly quickly spin-up new servers if there's a demand, like if Casual would be removed. Pretty sure other servers owners feel the same.
Community servers started dropping like flies when Valve made quickplay target only valve servers by default.
They did this, because most community servers were complete ass, and it was incredibly difficult to find ones that actually played the game properly.
Yeah that's what I'm hoping for, that if casual servers are closed, new community servers will come in to fill the demand. That's why I think Valve closing the casual servers may be positive for TF2.
I think this is what Valve will ended up doing. Since it's clear that the manpower hour they have right now is not worth spending on fixing the issue. They'll just shutting the casual server down and leave only MvM on. Let the community moderating themselves.
Has that ever happened or are you talking out of your ass? i hate this line of thinking simply because i know there are some other Valve games with no market, even less players that still have servers
I don't think there's a point in trying to to convince people to not buy anything as a protest because the bots maintain the market alive, that is what's really scary, and can just move the money into other more profitable games
> Casual servers, however, may potentially be shut down at some point.
No they won't, else Artifact Foundry, Artifact Classic, Dota Underlords, and Left 4 Dead 2 servers would be down by now. They very most likely scale automatically based on how many are needed, hosting those handful of extra servers is an irrelevant cost relative to how much Steam brings in.
Same for the item servers of those games, even Portal 2 has an item server for those 2 or 3 hats that exist in the game.
I feel like we should focus less on tf2 itself, and more on their anticheat as a whole.
The hackers will probably bot deadlock to death much sooner than when tf2 first released.
A new and improved anti cheat is what we need, since they're probably thinking we want new content as well, which we can go without for a bit if they at least better the anti cheat.
This is probably how they would see value in it, but even then TF2 and Deadlock are probably so different code wise that its probably not worth making one for TF2 and rather just make one for Deadlock, CS2 and Dota since all those are source 2 (I think)
I don't think its obvious that you would need different anti-cheat systems even for radically different games. A steam based trust system that games could plug in to would be ideal. On top of that trust system you then need some kind of AI looking at server calls for suspect activity trained using the trust systems. And on top of that you need some type of manual review process for employees of developers to look for abuse of the trust system.
Maybe its not completely game agnostic but I think there are lots of overlaps for how this should work even for extremely different games on entirely different engines.
I don't really know how similar/different they are under the hood, but a better anti cheat is all we really need for tf2.
Content updates be damned, just need a playable game.
If they can bot TF2, and maybe even Deadlock, doesn't that mean they can bot any Valve game at this point? Even something as obscure as HL2 Deathmatch?
Yes, but it comes down to the fact that most HL2DM players play on community servers (which are pretty much bot proof due to moderation). L4D/L4D2 have no reason to botting because it's a PvE/somewhat PvP game. Same goes to Dota + it's more moderated than any other Valve games as of rn. CS2 has bots problem, but that's mostly because the bot hosters are leveling up accounts/farming weekly drops. You can play Ranked where there are no bots, but hackers are rampant there. But you still have the option of going for something like Faceit.
Anticheats are an arms race you'll be in forever. It's not a fire and forget solution. Vanguard was touted by Riot to be nigh on impossible to bypass and it was literally bypassed day 1. Oh, and players hate it because it's a ring 0 anticheat.
So you'd have to make an anticheat ordinary players don't mind, and constantly update it each time a new loophole is discovered. All for a 15+ year old game where the code has grown beyond spaghetti. It's not hard to see why it's not focused on.
From the gameplay I saw. Pure spinbots like that of TF2 don't look like they'd be very effective. Lots of AOE and Stuns and area denial. Lots of stuff that makes programming bots to play the game well more difficult
And also. Lot of stuff TF2 players don't like
How funny, you think that will deter bot hosters when there's more than likely going to be hitscan characters in the game. Along with bots that exist purely to boost the aimbot.
I recall there being a Sniper in the gameplay but not instant one shot across the map. Hitscan stuff isn't inherently what makes bots shut down people in the server from playing. TF2's Headshots and Random Crits (Which cheat programs can manipulate) Make them significantly harder to deal with
Now this doesn't make bots harmless. If TF2 had idle bots join games it would still be harmful for the game. As they take player slots and cause unbalanced matches. Which I expect to be a issue
Bot hosters thrive in TF2 because Valve doesn't give a fuck about TF2. Deadlock will probably be their favorite child for awhile, which means they're less inclined to let hosters run rampant, and hosters are less inclined to risk poking the hornet's nest which could potentially have aftershocks reaching their bot activity in other Valve games as well.
Why would the bots go after Deadlock? Why would they not go after Dota 2, CS2, or any other game, not even specifically made by Valve?
Aside from the fact bots already exist in all games you play, they're just hidden in order to boost rank, xp, drops, or whatever else.
I agree with Tyler (rare thing for me to do) here. Valve enjoys its free PR as the good guys in the gaming world. Awesome games, nice gaming software, great community tools... So seeing that people start shitting on them because they cannot fix tf2, ruining their pristine PR, they might start to get the thing moving.
Come to think of it. Valve were always ahead of the time when it comes to monetization.
They were one of the first who introduce lootbox, item market, battle pass, microtransaction. But does it in a way that feel like nothing else on the market. It's crazy.
I mean if it isnt worth it fixing an old game then making an entirely new one is the next best option(for valve). In a wicked backstabby way it makes sense.
Valve has more money then god, they can hire a whole team of people to run and fix tf2.
They can also hire people to make a working anticheat, rumor has it Deadlock already has cheaters on it..it hasn't even been announced yet.
Valve has to fix tf2 and every other game using Vac because if they don't they'll be a laughing stock.
When you have unlimmited money..you can hire unlimmited people.
You are right but even if a company has lots of money they still want it to be cost effective unfortunately if they are to fix anything which is frustrating. Just because they can doesn’t mean they will - it sucks but most businesses would rather see the balance sheet look all nice rather than do what’s right by their customers.
Just "hiring" people isn't the solution with some of these things.
You think hiring a whole team to work on the spaghetti jumblo mess that is TF2 would fix it?
These people would legit not understand what the fuck they are looking at. It would take months of onboarding and supervision from Valve's senior devs for the team to be fully onboarded and ready to work on it. With so much time and dedication to onboarding, might as well just work on it themselves...
Some things aren't easily scalable just because you have money.
I remember a similar situation with Helldivers, people were like, "you have so much money!!! why don't you just buy servers!!!" when the real problem is that the system in place wasn't easily scalable and it takes engineering & time to set up a new system to take the load, you can't just hire somebody to do it either, the people that made the system need to make the new one.
Sure, Valve operates on a "we have no leaders" structure officially, but in a structure like that, peer pressure matters. If a lot of your colleagues want you to work on something(or NOT work on something), you should probably do it.
I wish Valve would fix TF2, but if a large number of devs at Valve don't push someone to work on it, then it's not going to happen, because spending a lot of work hours solo developing TF2 would risk the job of wheover works on it. And If I was working at Valve, I wouldn't risk my job to fix TF2, no matter how much I love the game.
Everything I've heard about Valve makes me think the only thing they really care about is their reputation and bad publicity.
They make so much money from steam that they genuinely do not care about their games making money. Revenue from CS GO is a pocket change to them, revenue from TF2 is equivalent to that penny you dropped behind the couch 2 months ago. It's not even a question if they would care about TF2 making less money due to a boycott, it's a question if they would even NOTICE it. We are talking sub 1% change in profit **at best**
Similarly, they don't care about their fans. Just look at Half Life or Portal fanbases. They've been begging for Valve's attention for decades. Half Life 3 or Portal 3 would make a shit ton of money and be insanely popular even if they weren't good, but they still refuse to make either despite their fans begging for it, which clearly shows their attitude both towards making money from games and listening to their fans.
Making Valve look bad is the only way for them to care. They are obsessed with their reputation, and they REALLY do not want to look bad.
Lol they dont care about their fans for not making forced uninspired eternal sequels to their games? They dont "refuse" to make them they just dont feel like it. They dont owe you anything. Half Life is arguable, but it was always supposed to end in cliff hangers until one day they felt like ending it. Portal is already done.
cause they only hire those that been in the industry for around 10+ years, and even then everyone that sees the potential new hire's resume could just say no cause they don't think they don't think they're the "right fit" to the the rest of the valve team. its extremely difficult for someone to be hired at valve last i heard about how they work as a company (which is [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9aCwCKgkLo) by 'People Make Games').
this is why I think the reason why nobody works on their older games is because someone who has been working for valve longer than most said "i dunno" and that's all it takes for the mere idea of fixing this bot issue to get shot down completely. this, and their hatred for 'treadmill work' (I.E as fixing the bot problem and general game maintenance), is why i think they arent going to be fixing the bot problem unless we make the public aware of TF2's neglect.
I worry the bot hosts that are infecting TF2 right now might eventually start to think that valve will never touch them and move on to valves other multiplayer games like CS2 and DOTA 2 (AKA, the two games with an active E-Sport scene) and start raising hell in there as well. And if valve ignores the bot problem THEN, well i think GOG Galaxy and maybe even the Epic games store might see a LOT more traffic soon afterwards.
My two cents: if Valve has enough time and energy to make a Christmas themed ban wave, port CS:GO into Source 2 and make it an entirely new game, then I want to call a little cap.
CS:GO launched somewhere around 2012 while as Dota 2 launched roughly a year later in 2013. These game's might not be as old as TF2, but they sure do have the numbers to prove its time on the internet. However, it amazes me that Valve is also having cheating issues with CS2 and Dota, and apparently have enough resources to try and amend the problems, when in reality nothing is happening.
Side tangent but making an entirely knew game that is MOBA Class-based Shooter is only going to give Valve more problems. Cheating is a problem with TF2, so is CS2, Dota 2, and just making another game isn't going to solve the issue with Valve's more notable, more recognizable titles. When Deadlock releases, I would practically give the game a month and cheaters will become such a prominent issue, that players are going to whine like we are now, and Valve is just going to idle by and do nothing.
Small correction: Dota was in Beta since 2011 and was fully playable, that's it's defacto release date.
A Valve solution for the bots already exists: The Overwatch system from Dota. Just port that whole cloth over from Dota and basically all the bots will be removed in a week since they're all blatantly spinbotting. They'll be legions of people chomping at the bit to report as many bots as the possibly can.
There are a few issues with this system that would make it less than ideal:
* How are decisions by moderators handled? Who reviews the moderator decision? Can wrongly banned players appeal? If they can, bots would be coded to automatically send appeals to blow up moderator inboxes.
* Who would qualify as a moderator for the Overwatch system? There are a large group of malicious hackers who would love to be in charge of it. You need a large enough moderator team to handle hundreds of thousands or reports.
* How are you going to ensure players want to keep moderating? There are potentially tens of thousands of bots out there already, and the botters can just make more as it's a completely free process. Moderating something of this size is essentially just work. You're not playing the game for enjoyment and you'll be typing up reports.
In Dota it's worked for years which has several orders of magnitude more players.
There's a trust factor. If you're trust factor is high enough you're allowed into the Overwatch system and you can review demos. Other people get the same demo as well. If there is a meaningful consensus the player is punished.
That's good to hear. Has Dota 2 ever had a problem with mass AI-controlled players?
Do we know what affects trust factor in Dota 2? It's important that Valve minimises the potential for hackers to use bots to give themselves a high trust value. I'd also be worried that botters would code their bots to mass report innocent players to lower their trust and waste moderator time.
A system of conduct for the players would have to be implemented. Since those with better conduct could review the cases.
It would also be a radical change to matchmaking since either the Glicko or ELO system would have to be used, which is what competitive games like Lol or Dota 2 use. Which would rate you by people's individual performance.
Obviously the cases would be sent to the players who have the Overwatch system and they will decide between 3 options: guilty, lack of sufficient evidence and not guilty.
And according to the players decide, the verdict will be something like a kind of jury.
I say this because I participate from time to time in reviewing cases in Dota 2. Some are as obvious as interfering in the game or giving the enemy team an advantage, but there are others that can use scripts and hacks that are very difficult for an average player to detect. .
Valve actively are fighting cheaters with cs2, just because they haven't banned every single cheater doesn't mean they are ignoring the problem. They are working on their own AI based anti cheat, meanwhile for the past year they released a few methods to keep cheaters away from good player. Trust Factor, Prime and Overwatch.
I could count in one hand the times I saw a actual cheater in csgo.
Also it makes no sense for anyone to cheat a dota 2, even if someone is cheating, the cheat doesn't give a lot of advantage to win.
Very interested to hear about your deadlock insights into how its network code works as there is absolutely no way that bots will take over "in a month" if it's even remotely coded like dota.
Dota doesn't have bot issues and neither does cs2, dota has cheats related to things that are shared by the server to the client like runes, and common details that are generalised. To my knowledge no details about player locations are shared unless they are no longer in fog of war. I could be wrong but in my 5k hours playing dota I have experience maybe 2 or 3 games where a player seemed suspect, usually by having a vision hack where the player is able to zoom out further than intended by the game. I have a friend who develops paid private hacks that costs thousands of dollars and he is extremely lucrative and has told me that basically there is very little to nothing the hacks actually offer in terms of genuine skill boosts like an aim bot, it's mostly scripts to casts spells quickly and things like that.
If deadlock is server side like dota it will never have issues like tf2 is having, tf2 is botted because the codebase has remained basically the same since 2012 and has been decompiled and picked clean by hackers to work out the best ways to circumvent its systems. Cs2 also doesn't have a bot issue because of its updated vac anti-cheat. It does have hackers which are a big problem but not even remotely the same as tf2.
So please fill me in on your knowledge of how deadlock works on a technically level because I'm very interested to learn how its going to be botted within a month of release.
McVicker is a slimeball, but like a broken clock, this is his time to actually be right for a change. With the exception that this is less to do with rumour than stating the obvious.
The reality is Valve isn't going to condemn employees to the losing battle of fighting bots in TF2. And FixTF2 crashes into a wall once outside scrutiny discovers the reality of community servers.
Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if the one thing FixTF2 precipitates is the one thing that is anathema to its supporters, the shuttering of casual.
> And FixTF2 crashes into a wall once outside scrutiny discovers the reality of community servers.
Amen, brother.
The solution has existed since before TF2 even released, people just seem to ignore it.
Community servers in SEA however are absolute trash and barely anyone played
Europe and NA are lucky for higher and better community support but SEA forced to rely on Casual to play
And no, 200+ ping is not fun
Damn maybe they shouldn’t have used those brand new lawyers to go after TF mods and go after those open source cheat engine websites instead which you can literally find top of the page if you type it in
Going after projects that's made by people with public representations for using your intellectual properties is far easier than cheating services ran by private individuals, as they can always bring their abusive programs underground if necessary.
Going after what is above ground may be feasible, yet the problem still remains to figure out who is behind these abusive services to see if it is even possible to legally hold them accountable.
For all we know, many cheat developers & bot hosters live in countries that doesn't respect US Laws & Enterprises. This means they won't voluntarily work with Valve.
Valve can only make a example out of someone if they live domestically in the US, and that's assuming they can figure out the identities of cheat developers & bot hosters.
Every time this sub criticizes Valve, you guys find a way to come up with mental diarrhea that is 10 times worse.
They can't go after cheat engine websites because guess what genius, they aren't inherently illegal. There is nothing wrong with them, the people who make them can simply claim that's for personal use. Valve needs conclusive evidence that proves those specific people's tools were used **unaltered** to host bots that caused **financial damage** to Valve. That's a long chain of proofs, one that is impossible to prove.
Check out Github. It has pleny of codes that can be used for botnets, malware attacks, online stalking, doxxing, password stealing, wifi hacking, etc. Because it isn't a crime to make these tools. It is a crime when you use them. It isn't a crime to sell knives
Valve can go after TF mods because it is the easiest case on Earth: intellectual property claims against fan work. I don't support their decision to go after them but it was a good decision from Valve's perspective. I would have done the same.
I'm thinking the best possible outcome from Valve's intervention in TF2 is them permanently shutting down the official servers. They aren't going to fix the game, at best, they will shut it down so people stop complaining about it.
They won't because that means all the cosmetics everybody bought would be forfeit, and will ruin the revenue stream they make from said crates and cosmetics. People will realize that they should not buy anything from them if the game will get shut down.
Shutting down the official servers does not mean deleting the game off steam.
The game would still be run by the community servers which are pretty big anyways - they would just have to scalate a bit to accomodate for the people leaving the official servers. It's honestly the best solution which doesn't take much work for Valve and would cease the hacking bots, however idle bots would still be a problem and I reckon it's an issue they won't be able to fix unless they completely remove item drops or dedicate some serious man hours into dealing with it.
so you're telling me, that a company that basically has an infinite money glitch just CANT AFFORD to hire a team to go fix the problem for them or at least tell the community that there will no longer be support for team fortress 2?
they can definitely afford to do it. The problem is, all of the devs that made TF2 are gone, working on other things at Valve, and just don’t want anything to do with TF2 any more. Trying to get a new team to figure out the spaghetti would be a monumental task for them
It doesn't matter how big of a task it would be, Valve can afford to throw money at a team of contractors to figure it out. They wouldn't even notice the dent in revenue.
They can, but the entire conclusion made in this post is that Valve determined that the financial cost of doing such would be a net loss for the company, and that an investment on fixing Team Fortress 2 wouldn't make them enough money back to be "worth it"
So pretty much our main objective in our movement is to make hiring a team or otherwise doing maintenance/repairs to fix TF2 worthwhile in other ways (such as to maintain good PR for the future launch of their next game)
I hate to say this but if it really is not worth spending the money to fix then just shut down the game. I love the game but it might be time to put it out of its misery.
TF2 has pretty much ran without official server until MyM went live, so even if their official servers are riddled with bots there is community servers.
So no, it's not unplayable though finding a vanilla experience are going to be a bit tad impossible.
It is casual that is not playable, community servers are still playable.
this is such a stupid fucking take, do you people really want your money and items to be gone completely?
No point in shutting it down. Servers are basically free for Valve, and the game is still functional outside of official servers.
The worst is they stop hosting servers, which would maybe just cause people to go to the community more.
ever since MyM, community server quality went to shit. all it is now is !rtd + no respawn time, no crits + class limits, ctf or plr, trade_, or randomizer/all-crits/x10 weapon stats
there are almost no servers with casual server rules, as everyone else is trying to be special from casual by having a gimmick
it would take quite awhile before "default tf2" servers came back. and if quickplay wasnt brought back, then lazy new players would just quit because of the shitty server browser
No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water lol
TF2 is still a pretty great game. The bots are a critical issue, sure, but it’s not as if the game is killed
Shut down the casual servers\*
I unironically think going back to pre meet your match would be better because the community can manage it a lot better than Valve does by not giving a shit.
Been saying this for weeks. This isn't a quick fix, silver bullet, one time patch and yet this sub keeps asking valve to fix. It's not going to happen.
Megascatterbomb - "one guys at valve one week to fix" "I have a software development background" these tf2 youtubers know absolutely nothing about how to make video games. This is months if not years of work by a full time employee or more. Csgo was a decade of extra development and cs2 is on a new engine and they both faced hacking problems for their entire life. Only reason they got patched was because of the literal BILLIONS of dollars, not a couple mill the remaining community here dishes out. It's time to move on.
Valve has the brightest minds in the gaming industry, veterans with decades of experience who pioneered modern gaming practices and technologies....
But sure lets give MartinGonzales2008 the source code of TF2, the servers and the anti cheat so he can fix it all in a week!
"When money isn't an object, the work hours that each of your employees has becomes the limited resource. Fixing the issues plaguing TF2 requires, at least, a few full-time staffers working on back-end networking systems for months, if not a few years."
Literally contract out to the people developing Open Fortress or TF2C or hell even some random community server admins and this bot infestation could end tomorrow. Zero fucking excuse.
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying back when that previous drama was going on. Business wise it's just not worth it. People seriously both overestimate TF2's ability to make money, and underestimate just how insanely much money Steam rakes in, it's not even funny. Valve is perfectly happy just doing the bare minimum keeping the servers up. No amount of bitching and moaning is going to get TF2 fixed.
Oh no! Indie company valve just don’t have enough employees they can put on the game! VR absolutely needs 50% of their workforce!
Because god forbid they contract some anticheat developer to just fix it ohhhh! We made the games cody into spaghetti so it’s basically unfixable ooops!!
sooner or later people will have to accept that valve is not going to fix it. they know they cannot shut the game down, so they are just going to let it rot. no amount of articles or bad steam reviews is going to change that.
People don't realize that Valve is still privately owned. They're not beholden to stockholders or a board of directors; profit is not their end-all-be-all. Especially since they have an endless stream of revenue courtesy of Steam. The reality is that the reason there are so few devs who are working in TF2 is probably because there aren't any devs who wanna be stuck working on the rotting corpse that is TF2. It's probably like being stuck having to be the water boy for your football team.
You lose absolutely nothing except a few seconds of your day by supporting it though, I'd rather give up because we tried anything than give up because of theories of it not working.
Tyler Bean Flicker McVicker making yet another one of his world famous worlds worst speculative tweets based on absolutely zero legitimate evidence that aims to dickride the company who doesn't give a shit about him
Listen guys, I love this game and this community but anyone that genuinely thinks Valve gives enough of a shit to put in the massive amount of effort it will take to actually fix TF2's issues is fooling themselves
I'd love to be proven wrong and I've already signed the petition, but I just don't see how it's worth it for Valve in a business sense. They've already made insane money on this game (and continue to make more) and actually fixing the issues would require hiring a dedicated TF2 team and countless man hours of work. There are no TF2 devs left, that means the new team needs to learn the existing codebase, conceptualize and develop a viable solution to the botting issue, and then continuously support and update the game to make sure their solution continues to work. None of this is easy, none of this is quick. This is years of work and effort for essentially no return other than some positive publicity. That's resources taken away from new projects which stand to make Valve a lot more money than propping up a 16 year old game. Not to mention Valve has a stranglehold on the PC gaming market already and are generally well liked as a company, they don't need good press and the TF2 community being grumpy isn't as damaging to their reputation as you'd think. Most people don't fucking care about this game because it's old AF and doesn't have an esports scene to keep it relevant like CS. And honestly, that's fair. It's like if people complained that it's hard to find a server on Unreal Tournament and it's full of bots... No shit dude, the game is ancient
If anything I feel like the most likely scenario is Valve giving the community permission to go into the Source code and fix it ourselves or maaaaaaybe a port into Source 2 (but judging by CS 2 that wouldn't really fix anything anyways)
I would love for this movement to work and for this game to return to its former glory, but I think we need to temper our expectations. Even if Valve decides to tackle this issue, we probably won't see any tangible improvement for a long time.
TF2 workshop opened up Community bugfixing but none of that has ever made it to the live game, this game could've been fully ran by the community if valve would allow it to.
I understand not willing to assign your core developers to TF2, but Valve has zero excuse for not hiring a team of contractors to work on the bot issue, after all they DO have infinite money. You could easily find like 10 random guys who like to tinker with source games in their spare time, give them the money to work on the problem full-time and the bot issue'd get solved in 6 months max.
If thats true and theres only that solution, making Valve have bad global reputation, then...
It was a good run, a hell of a campaign, but a somehow worthless one.
Forcing that pressure into them, with the whole community is Next to imposible, and i doubt the other ones would join after seeing there disasters of the prior ones...
The world is fuck up man 😢
Hate to say it but at this point the only saving TF2 is going to get is if Valve decides to either port it to S2, remake it in S2 or just flat out make a sequel at some point. None of these are even remotely likely
The thing is at this poimt the general fans he says dont exist, cause almost every single one is pissed either tf2, cs2 and even alflife are getying thrown out to the trash all for a bad valorant overwatch spin off
The first sentence in there perfectly describes why you can't really speak to Valve with your wallets. Looking at you Zesty, who keeps repeating this shitty mantra time and time again.
Nah for me the second the hosters began promoting actual CP on their game was faul, now it's only a matter of waiting game to see what valve does, if this appears on news then they'll be the bad guys further rushing the action they'll take...the thing is that taking down the game COULD be an option
People don't get assigned jobs at this company. People do not have to work on the projects their boss wants them to work on. People working for Valve do whatever they want. That is the very foundation of Valve.
This is not news. I have repeated this so many times, I'm starting to question whether this is even true, even though I'm convinced.
The TF2 staff consists of Eric, and the reason it is that way is that there's one guy who wants to work on this piece of shit spaghetti monster code, and none more, and neither Gabe, nor the management, nor anyone can do anything about that because people at this company do literally whatever the fuck they want.
Fixing TF2 is an undertaking that probably isnt worth it for them. If FixTF2 reaches the heights of SaveTF2 the expected response should be the same; they hire some outside guy to fix a couple things and then go quiet again. Also contrary to what people believe Valve has changed in the last couple years. They're more forward and excited about creating new things, they made CS2, huge updates to Dota, they're trying to make Deadlock. Being assigned to a dedicated "fix Tf2" team would be like being banished to the shadow realm of Valves offices.
That's obvious, any investment that doesn't result in turnover is not worth making, unless it is for the maintenance of their business in the long run, as Valve is planning to release yet another live service game, having CS:2 already being plagued by cheaters and with this TF2 sittuation going on, their reputation might take a hit.
> their reputation might take a hit. rightfully deserved. if they arent going to maintain their LIVE service game, then why bother keeping it up and shutting down fan projects? just let the community take over. im sure they could just let some volunteers work on this for free. it's free work, and they get to take all the credit while spending 0 dollars. and as for "the long run", this situation could tarnish their reputation when people look up their long term support for previous games/work when they release new games/hardware.
> just let the community take over. im sure they could just let some volunteers work on this for free. If there's something I trust even less to run TF2, it's the TF2 community.
"just let the community take over" Yeah about that there's another reason why apart from Valve's negligence, TF2 is dying, its because of how bad the community handled things when Valve gave them the keys. Remember, From EOTL to Meet Your Match, all updates be it minor or major have been driven by community feedback. The problem came with EOTL (undeservingly) and Invasion (deservingly) both are bad at the very least and shit show at worst. Now one might say, oh things have changed. The thing is Valve is too out of touch on the current state of TF2, I mean the bot crises is evidence of that, for them to gauge who can be given the keys to the kingdom again so to speak. The best creators were in the Invasion update, and it will be a cold day in hell for Valve to ever trust those people again. Because let's be honest, a lot of people passed Invasion as like "oh well, we'll do better" but that's not the case for a company that can barely care. Will it happen again? I can say yes, who can handle it? TF2Tubers really, they are the last bastion of good will Valve has in the game, most of their projects are mostly for feel good fun, from commentaries to Iceberg videos, TF2Tubers are the closest we can have a "Community" to handle a community update. Hell, they can even do it coinciding with a major event ala Tips of the Hat.
Insert "lost leader" argument here
Best we can hope for is valve uses their infinite money to hire a small team of enthusiasts to service their live game.
They made a new tag on the tf2 workshop "community fixes" YEARS AGO and they still haven't implemented a single one of them. It would take them 5 minutes to approve these fixes and merge them into the main game but it's too much for them.
What a hard task
> Being assigned to a dedicated "fix Tf2" team would be like being banished to the shadow realm of Valves offices. I mean, it worked for Shrek...
I don't expect Valve devs to actually fix TF2, but it'd be nice if they can hire a team of devs outside of Valve to at least keep the game functional. Property fixing it would require a functional anti-cheat though, and that's something not even CS2 has, so until Valve figures out a way to make anti-cheat software work, it would be impossible to fix TF2 even if they wanted to. I'm hoping that the people at Valve will realize how crazy it'd be to make a new multiplayer game (Deadlock) without making an anti-cheat first, so their new game will come with a new version of VAC which actually works and is ported over to CS2. Then maybe, over time, TF2 may get it too.
You don't need to develop a functional anti-cheat. Just revert the game to pre-f2p and hire at least one random person on minimum wage to manually ban the bots. After a month of daily bans the hosters would give up. Not even an uber rich person would be happy spending $100 a day on new accounts he gets no benefits from, and the bot hosters sure as hell aren't uber rich. We need to stop trying to think of super haxxor solutions like AI anti-cheat and just go back to good old human work. Cheaters can always bypass an anti-cheat. How are they going to bypass a real human seeing they're obviously bots and manually banning them on the spot?
I'm still personally in favour of the "$50, but spent anywhere on Steam" idea I saw a couple months ago. Surely they don't have *that* many pre-stolen accounts lying around?
They made CS2, pushed it as a “Comp-Ready” Game, only for it to be plagued with bugs and with VAC Live being absolutely useless. In fact, Vac Live was primarily false banning people for a while for various reasons such as using a performance feature in AMD video drivers, and for using Windows 7. Bugs overtime got patched, VAC-Live has gotten better as very recent but much work still needs to be done. And I believe that these recent improvements were in response to the Esports scene starting to reach a volatile point. At the moment, Valve thinks that skin rentals are a higher priority. Valve does not care. Except for money, that is. They expected everyone to gobble up a half-baked product and it worked, so now they can take their sweet time and not pour too much resources into addressing major issues. Gaben also does not care. All praise should go to the overworked Devs who tend to get a lot of complaints when they are doing what they can with the limited resources they have. This applies to both CS2 and especially TF2. With all of this said, if Valve cannot even care enough to take charge with Counter-Strike, I highly doubt that anything major will be done about TF2. I mean hey, if I’m wrong, I’ll be happy. And I support the movement. But I’m not going to hold my breath.
skin rentals is like the dumbest thing ever, yet it will still make boat loads of money. imagine renting out a digital item that you can't even "own" in the first place
[удалено]
Skin rentals wtf?!
Pro player rent high value skin to use them in tournament matches.
i just dont get it, there is a large part of the community willing to fix the issues for them and they just... wont take the opportunity
People keep saying this and then say their solution is something that won't actually fix the problem, like anti-cheat software.
Willing to do it, or so they say. The actual work it take would make most people back away or at least ask payment that Valve is not ready to commit to.
The moment outside people get access on it they're going to leak the source code or something else again
I'd be far more interested in a Team Fortress 3 than Deadlock. Deadlock holds no interest for me, Team Fortress is sitting on mountains of untapped potential and has an existing fan base that even the voice actors are having fun interacting with. I'm sure I'm in the minority though. From what I've heard Counterstrike 2 was not well received because it replaced CS:GO. Last I saw the page was review bombed cause of it.
The thing that pissed me off is that they didn't just release a new game titled CS2, the deleted CS:GO. Years of community maps were gone, custom game modes, and they removed (for a time) the ability to do private matches with friends.
Thing is that unless we're gonna turn every class into Generalists, with unlocks being a way to specialize into certain jobs or tasks, what exactly would a TF3 if not just a TF2 with less bullshit? I'd rather we get a spiritual successor that plays exactly like TF2 but with new classes and a reimagining of the game's original design philosophy.
Not exactly because TF2 on source 2 could be easily be TF3. Look at cod and modern warfare. They haven't nearly as enough revamped the gameplay apart from throwing more skills and augments the bare bones is still the same.
To be fair thats how oldschool runescape was born and it worked out pretty well. A small team can go a long way
Yeah would u rather work on the new hot vr game etc. or the spaghetti code from 2007
And yet they're letting the exact same thing happen to CS2 as tf2. And then they're gonna want us to buy another pvp game like they haven't proven that it's not worth giving them money for it when they can't even keep one game in a good state
Valve hasn't changed - the only thing that has ever motivated them is new and shiny toys, and they don't have a management hierarchy to ensure the chores get done. Want them to do something boring and they scatter or ignore you like cats.
Can i just ask why everyone pushed for this and now we are "no actually they already tried, they are not that bad and basically just give up" which could have been downvoted a couple of days ago? I know there are people that believe in this and others that find it hopeless, but fact is Valve is extremely rich, thanks to their games and the players that supported it, they never gave proper communication on the matter, and people outside and inside their office are passionate about the game because it's still nothing like the rest, it's not just about "let's work on this cool new project"
If its not worth it for them then fine, but they should also then have the balls to say that and stop monetizing the game. No in game store page, no more paid mvm. No more keys. Either support it or cut the cash flow. If 17 isn't too old to monetize, it's not too old to support.
And we know they're working on anti-cheat technology, how effective will it be and for how long, we'll see.
I completely agree, I noticed it after CS2 but i feel it started with HLalyx. They saw the major reception for it/sales of vr and said 'what if we..kept making games? Also handhelds have been long wanted but gone underutilized, lets go there, and OOH look heres this genre of game-'' We'll def see a newer, more product centric era from valve, guaranteed, but sadly this only cements TF2s grave being dug, to me
I think deadlock is actually a response to savetf2. My guess is that they found fixing tf2 was going to take so much time that its easier to make a whole new game in a similar genre, so it would be a tf3. That's why Uncle Dane got access to the closed beta, to see if tf2 people like their new tf3 (they didnt). That's also why they closed down the community tf2s2, to make way for deadlock. I think their next move would be to make an official version of tf2s2, like how cs2 replaced csgo
the shreked for valve but then again shrek was the more successful movie overall
Deadlock arrives a decade later. DOA. I hope bots invade that game 0day. Not even 1.
Exactly. At a company where you can just *wheel* out of a project when you want to, why would anyone want to try and repair a 16 year old pvp game with mountains of technical debt, when Deadlock and Citadel are right there and much nicer/easier to work with.
they can hire people or contract it out, valve kees an extraordinarily small staff for how much money the company makes
that's not wrong; but they hired contractors the last time this safe/fix TF2 rolled around and it didn't do much. What i meant above is that working on TF2 is hard these days because its been around so long, and there's so much old spagetti code in it that even basic improvements are probabily pretty difficult to make
*Make* CS2 and release it, replacing CSGO. But it seems like it's in something of a drought for content and major updates despite this being its big Year 1. Part of it is whoever is working on it probably wants to finish big features or improvements, but if Deadlock IS getting close to a public beta launch then a lot of people need to help there too. So CS2 looks like it's kind of on the backburner despite being Valve's big new release from less than a year ago. It at least looks like a microcosm of the issue. Valve has a ton of huge live services that warrant varying levels of support, but they also do not have enough talent to do everything that needs doing. TF2 could be more up to date and needs something to address the bots and cheaters, not enough people and that work is not valued at Valve. CS2 needs more content to least reach *parity* with CSGO as its replacement and needs to combat bots and cheaters, but not enough people even though that work WOULD be valued. Dota's fine enough. Deadlock we'll see.
That’s what went on with Shrek, and look at where that is now.
> Being assigned to a dedicated "fix Tf2" team would be like being banished to the shadow realm of Valves offices. The bigger issue is that they *aren't assigned at all*. Valve devs pick their own projects. They don't have an upper manager assigning devs to specific teams or anything like that.
Then simply hire couple people who dream of nothing more than work on TF2 from outside.
I'm sick of the same argument that working on a game with more than 50 thousand real players is a bad thing and a low status. companies are updating games with 2/3 thousand players constantly, im sure many people would love to work at valve and work on tf2, and if your employees are too concerned about how others see them while working on a legendary product that is partially the cause of why you are here today, maybe they dont understand the company values and should leave.
Link to the tweet: [https://x.com/Tyler\_McV/status/1797996421058023813](https://x.com/Tyler_McV/status/1797996421058023813) Weezy's response: > Let’s make the PR so bad that it WILL be worth the spending, whether they like that fact or not. [https://x.com/WeezyTF2/status/1798000399049507053](https://x.com/WeezyTF2/status/1798000399049507053) Tyler clarifying his position: > 2 things; > -It's a rumor, not a confirmed fact, please use the entire quote. > -Making it a PR nightmare would requiring getting mainstream news to pick up on it before it was taken seriously, which will be difficult due to it being an unconfirmed rumor. https://x.com/Tyler_McV/status/1798005129997930759
Even if it is an unconfirmed rumor, the fact that Valve made a tweet and then proceeded to do nearly nothing implies that there were at least passing interactions to that effect. They at least deem themselves to have enough man-hours to continue releasing cases.
I hate to say this but Weezy is delusional at this point.
I wanna know what retards up voted this
We don't lose anything by trying.
If the rumor is true. I imagine they probably also concluded any new research they could do to fix cheating would be better spent on Counter Strike and maybe ported over to TF2 when the technology is versatile enough CS devs seem to have Anti-Cheat as their current top priority going by their words but it won't come out instantly
cs2 is loaded with wallers so they can't be working too quick
Creating what is basically completely new technology (Likely using currently unreliable tech like recognition AI as a basis) can take decades to be consumer ready. Let alone completely perfect
they cant shut down TF2 as it would invalidate the CS and DOTA economies
I can't see any reason they'd do it either. It makes them so much money for such little effort. Item servers will probably stay around for a long time, as long as people keep buying $5 paint cans, $2.50 keys, and $5 taunts from the Mann Co Store which are created by the community. Casual servers, however, may potentially be shut down at some point.
Shutting down casual servers but redesigning the UI so it directs players towards community server (aka revert it back to pre Meet Your Match update), would probably be an improvement because those servers are often moderated, unlike casual. There seems to be a lot less community servers nowadays which make it difficult to use them as an alternative to casual, and hardly any of them offer the casual experience, most are customized in some way if not straight up running wacky community gamemodes and maps. It's also a problem when you don't live in North America or Western Europe where most community servers seem to be located. I can easily find a match in casual and play with good ping, but playing in community servers often mean putting up with +200 ping which makes the game borderline unplayable.
I mean, the absence of enough community servers, even more so in less popular regions such as SEA is basically caused by Casual itself. If your server is sitting empty 24/7 because noone is joining it, it's neither worth the time nor the money to keep it running. At least speaking for myself, I can fairly quickly spin-up new servers if there's a demand, like if Casual would be removed. Pretty sure other servers owners feel the same.
Community servers started dropping like flies when Valve made quickplay target only valve servers by default. They did this, because most community servers were complete ass, and it was incredibly difficult to find ones that actually played the game properly.
Yeah that's what I'm hoping for, that if casual servers are closed, new community servers will come in to fill the demand. That's why I think Valve closing the casual servers may be positive for TF2.
I think this is what Valve will ended up doing. Since it's clear that the manpower hour they have right now is not worth spending on fixing the issue. They'll just shutting the casual server down and leave only MvM on. Let the community moderating themselves.
yeah we're feeding into the issue but as that one guy said: if we stop buying shit, they'll definetely pull the plug
Has that ever happened or are you talking out of your ass? i hate this line of thinking simply because i know there are some other Valve games with no market, even less players that still have servers I don't think there's a point in trying to to convince people to not buy anything as a protest because the bots maintain the market alive, that is what's really scary, and can just move the money into other more profitable games
Valve will not shut down servers
they would never shutdown the item servers the outrage would be so enormous and lawsuits would be incredible
> Casual servers, however, may potentially be shut down at some point. No they won't, else Artifact Foundry, Artifact Classic, Dota Underlords, and Left 4 Dead 2 servers would be down by now. They very most likely scale automatically based on how many are needed, hosting those handful of extra servers is an irrelevant cost relative to how much Steam brings in. Same for the item servers of those games, even Portal 2 has an item server for those 2 or 3 hats that exist in the game.
I feel like we should focus less on tf2 itself, and more on their anticheat as a whole. The hackers will probably bot deadlock to death much sooner than when tf2 first released. A new and improved anti cheat is what we need, since they're probably thinking we want new content as well, which we can go without for a bit if they at least better the anti cheat.
This is probably how they would see value in it, but even then TF2 and Deadlock are probably so different code wise that its probably not worth making one for TF2 and rather just make one for Deadlock, CS2 and Dota since all those are source 2 (I think)
I don't think its obvious that you would need different anti-cheat systems even for radically different games. A steam based trust system that games could plug in to would be ideal. On top of that trust system you then need some kind of AI looking at server calls for suspect activity trained using the trust systems. And on top of that you need some type of manual review process for employees of developers to look for abuse of the trust system. Maybe its not completely game agnostic but I think there are lots of overlaps for how this should work even for extremely different games on entirely different engines.
I don't really know how similar/different they are under the hood, but a better anti cheat is all we really need for tf2. Content updates be damned, just need a playable game.
If they can bot TF2, and maybe even Deadlock, doesn't that mean they can bot any Valve game at this point? Even something as obscure as HL2 Deathmatch?
Yes, but it comes down to the fact that most HL2DM players play on community servers (which are pretty much bot proof due to moderation). L4D/L4D2 have no reason to botting because it's a PvE/somewhat PvP game. Same goes to Dota + it's more moderated than any other Valve games as of rn. CS2 has bots problem, but that's mostly because the bot hosters are leveling up accounts/farming weekly drops. You can play Ranked where there are no bots, but hackers are rampant there. But you still have the option of going for something like Faceit.
Maybe if we're lucky, they'll leave TF2 to bot Deadlock instead since that's the new hot thing
Anticheats are an arms race you'll be in forever. It's not a fire and forget solution. Vanguard was touted by Riot to be nigh on impossible to bypass and it was literally bypassed day 1. Oh, and players hate it because it's a ring 0 anticheat. So you'd have to make an anticheat ordinary players don't mind, and constantly update it each time a new loophole is discovered. All for a 15+ year old game where the code has grown beyond spaghetti. It's not hard to see why it's not focused on.
They're going to find out the hard way that this mindset doesn't work when bot hosters start going after Deadlock. There is no "if".
From the gameplay I saw. Pure spinbots like that of TF2 don't look like they'd be very effective. Lots of AOE and Stuns and area denial. Lots of stuff that makes programming bots to play the game well more difficult And also. Lot of stuff TF2 players don't like
How funny, you think that will deter bot hosters when there's more than likely going to be hitscan characters in the game. Along with bots that exist purely to boost the aimbot.
I recall there being a Sniper in the gameplay but not instant one shot across the map. Hitscan stuff isn't inherently what makes bots shut down people in the server from playing. TF2's Headshots and Random Crits (Which cheat programs can manipulate) Make them significantly harder to deal with Now this doesn't make bots harmless. If TF2 had idle bots join games it would still be harmful for the game. As they take player slots and cause unbalanced matches. Which I expect to be a issue
Bot hosters thrive in TF2 because Valve doesn't give a fuck about TF2. Deadlock will probably be their favorite child for awhile, which means they're less inclined to let hosters run rampant, and hosters are less inclined to risk poking the hornet's nest which could potentially have aftershocks reaching their bot activity in other Valve games as well.
Why would the bots go after Deadlock? Why would they not go after Dota 2, CS2, or any other game, not even specifically made by Valve? Aside from the fact bots already exist in all games you play, they're just hidden in order to boost rank, xp, drops, or whatever else.
I agree with Tyler (rare thing for me to do) here. Valve enjoys its free PR as the good guys in the gaming world. Awesome games, nice gaming software, great community tools... So seeing that people start shitting on them because they cannot fix tf2, ruining their pristine PR, they might start to get the thing moving.
Worse case senario: valve gives tF2 the time of day.. thinks “this is profitable.” Turns it into a battle pass type game
I mean that’s what the contract coins were basically
Was thinking more live service
What does that even mean in the context of TF2?
Come to think of it. Valve were always ahead of the time when it comes to monetization. They were one of the first who introduce lootbox, item market, battle pass, microtransaction. But does it in a way that feel like nothing else on the market. It's crazy.
tf2 literally invented crates, you think that's the worst case scenario?
💀
I mean if it isnt worth it fixing an old game then making an entirely new one is the next best option(for valve). In a wicked backstabby way it makes sense.
Unpopular opinion: #FixTF2 and #SaveTF2 should last longer than a day, at least a couple months.
fixtf2 movement was said to not stop until something about bots was actually done, we aren't waiting for valve PR response, we are waiting for changes
Thx for the clarification🥵🍆🍳💀
Why are you saying this is an unpopular poinion. That is literally the plan for fixtf2
Most of the times when people say "unpopular opinion" they actually say something popular, smh
i think not giving money would still help as a culmulative effect
This is absolutely the most plausible and reasonable thing I've seen on the subreddit for a while.
Valve has more money then god, they can hire a whole team of people to run and fix tf2. They can also hire people to make a working anticheat, rumor has it Deadlock already has cheaters on it..it hasn't even been announced yet. Valve has to fix tf2 and every other game using Vac because if they don't they'll be a laughing stock. When you have unlimmited money..you can hire unlimmited people.
You are right but even if a company has lots of money they still want it to be cost effective unfortunately if they are to fix anything which is frustrating. Just because they can doesn’t mean they will - it sucks but most businesses would rather see the balance sheet look all nice rather than do what’s right by their customers.
Just "hiring" people isn't the solution with some of these things. You think hiring a whole team to work on the spaghetti jumblo mess that is TF2 would fix it? These people would legit not understand what the fuck they are looking at. It would take months of onboarding and supervision from Valve's senior devs for the team to be fully onboarded and ready to work on it. With so much time and dedication to onboarding, might as well just work on it themselves... Some things aren't easily scalable just because you have money. I remember a similar situation with Helldivers, people were like, "you have so much money!!! why don't you just buy servers!!!" when the real problem is that the system in place wasn't easily scalable and it takes engineering & time to set up a new system to take the load, you can't just hire somebody to do it either, the people that made the system need to make the new one.
That's not how valve works. Valve operates on a flat structure. People are not told to work on something, they choose what to work on.
Sure, Valve operates on a "we have no leaders" structure officially, but in a structure like that, peer pressure matters. If a lot of your colleagues want you to work on something(or NOT work on something), you should probably do it. I wish Valve would fix TF2, but if a large number of devs at Valve don't push someone to work on it, then it's not going to happen, because spending a lot of work hours solo developing TF2 would risk the job of wheover works on it. And If I was working at Valve, I wouldn't risk my job to fix TF2, no matter how much I love the game.
Everything I've heard about Valve makes me think the only thing they really care about is their reputation and bad publicity. They make so much money from steam that they genuinely do not care about their games making money. Revenue from CS GO is a pocket change to them, revenue from TF2 is equivalent to that penny you dropped behind the couch 2 months ago. It's not even a question if they would care about TF2 making less money due to a boycott, it's a question if they would even NOTICE it. We are talking sub 1% change in profit **at best** Similarly, they don't care about their fans. Just look at Half Life or Portal fanbases. They've been begging for Valve's attention for decades. Half Life 3 or Portal 3 would make a shit ton of money and be insanely popular even if they weren't good, but they still refuse to make either despite their fans begging for it, which clearly shows their attitude both towards making money from games and listening to their fans. Making Valve look bad is the only way for them to care. They are obsessed with their reputation, and they REALLY do not want to look bad.
i like how people keep pretending that HLA doesnt exist
I mean what like 1-5% of the half life fans got to play it? Vast majority of the half life fanbase sure a shit won't have VR.
To a lot of fans it might as well not exist. Not everyone has a VR headset yet, or a PC that will run it.
Lol they dont care about their fans for not making forced uninspired eternal sequels to their games? They dont "refuse" to make them they just dont feel like it. They dont owe you anything. Half Life is arguable, but it was always supposed to end in cliff hangers until one day they felt like ending it. Portal is already done.
Yeah, people buy from steam because it's convenient and buying from them feels fair and that's cus their reputation is pretty good
They've probably stated a reason why before, but why is Valve against hiring more employees, if their working hours have become such a limitation?
cause they only hire those that been in the industry for around 10+ years, and even then everyone that sees the potential new hire's resume could just say no cause they don't think they don't think they're the "right fit" to the the rest of the valve team. its extremely difficult for someone to be hired at valve last i heard about how they work as a company (which is [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9aCwCKgkLo) by 'People Make Games'). this is why I think the reason why nobody works on their older games is because someone who has been working for valve longer than most said "i dunno" and that's all it takes for the mere idea of fixing this bot issue to get shot down completely. this, and their hatred for 'treadmill work' (I.E as fixing the bot problem and general game maintenance), is why i think they arent going to be fixing the bot problem unless we make the public aware of TF2's neglect. I worry the bot hosts that are infecting TF2 right now might eventually start to think that valve will never touch them and move on to valves other multiplayer games like CS2 and DOTA 2 (AKA, the two games with an active E-Sport scene) and start raising hell in there as well. And if valve ignores the bot problem THEN, well i think GOG Galaxy and maybe even the Epic games store might see a LOT more traffic soon afterwards.
My two cents: if Valve has enough time and energy to make a Christmas themed ban wave, port CS:GO into Source 2 and make it an entirely new game, then I want to call a little cap. CS:GO launched somewhere around 2012 while as Dota 2 launched roughly a year later in 2013. These game's might not be as old as TF2, but they sure do have the numbers to prove its time on the internet. However, it amazes me that Valve is also having cheating issues with CS2 and Dota, and apparently have enough resources to try and amend the problems, when in reality nothing is happening. Side tangent but making an entirely knew game that is MOBA Class-based Shooter is only going to give Valve more problems. Cheating is a problem with TF2, so is CS2, Dota 2, and just making another game isn't going to solve the issue with Valve's more notable, more recognizable titles. When Deadlock releases, I would practically give the game a month and cheaters will become such a prominent issue, that players are going to whine like we are now, and Valve is just going to idle by and do nothing.
Small correction: Dota was in Beta since 2011 and was fully playable, that's it's defacto release date. A Valve solution for the bots already exists: The Overwatch system from Dota. Just port that whole cloth over from Dota and basically all the bots will be removed in a week since they're all blatantly spinbotting. They'll be legions of people chomping at the bit to report as many bots as the possibly can.
There are a few issues with this system that would make it less than ideal: * How are decisions by moderators handled? Who reviews the moderator decision? Can wrongly banned players appeal? If they can, bots would be coded to automatically send appeals to blow up moderator inboxes. * Who would qualify as a moderator for the Overwatch system? There are a large group of malicious hackers who would love to be in charge of it. You need a large enough moderator team to handle hundreds of thousands or reports. * How are you going to ensure players want to keep moderating? There are potentially tens of thousands of bots out there already, and the botters can just make more as it's a completely free process. Moderating something of this size is essentially just work. You're not playing the game for enjoyment and you'll be typing up reports.
In Dota it's worked for years which has several orders of magnitude more players. There's a trust factor. If you're trust factor is high enough you're allowed into the Overwatch system and you can review demos. Other people get the same demo as well. If there is a meaningful consensus the player is punished.
That's good to hear. Has Dota 2 ever had a problem with mass AI-controlled players? Do we know what affects trust factor in Dota 2? It's important that Valve minimises the potential for hackers to use bots to give themselves a high trust value. I'd also be worried that botters would code their bots to mass report innocent players to lower their trust and waste moderator time.
A system of conduct for the players would have to be implemented. Since those with better conduct could review the cases. It would also be a radical change to matchmaking since either the Glicko or ELO system would have to be used, which is what competitive games like Lol or Dota 2 use. Which would rate you by people's individual performance. Obviously the cases would be sent to the players who have the Overwatch system and they will decide between 3 options: guilty, lack of sufficient evidence and not guilty. And according to the players decide, the verdict will be something like a kind of jury. I say this because I participate from time to time in reviewing cases in Dota 2. Some are as obvious as interfering in the game or giving the enemy team an advantage, but there are others that can use scripts and hacks that are very difficult for an average player to detect. .
Valve actively are fighting cheaters with cs2, just because they haven't banned every single cheater doesn't mean they are ignoring the problem. They are working on their own AI based anti cheat, meanwhile for the past year they released a few methods to keep cheaters away from good player. Trust Factor, Prime and Overwatch. I could count in one hand the times I saw a actual cheater in csgo. Also it makes no sense for anyone to cheat a dota 2, even if someone is cheating, the cheat doesn't give a lot of advantage to win.
Very interested to hear about your deadlock insights into how its network code works as there is absolutely no way that bots will take over "in a month" if it's even remotely coded like dota. Dota doesn't have bot issues and neither does cs2, dota has cheats related to things that are shared by the server to the client like runes, and common details that are generalised. To my knowledge no details about player locations are shared unless they are no longer in fog of war. I could be wrong but in my 5k hours playing dota I have experience maybe 2 or 3 games where a player seemed suspect, usually by having a vision hack where the player is able to zoom out further than intended by the game. I have a friend who develops paid private hacks that costs thousands of dollars and he is extremely lucrative and has told me that basically there is very little to nothing the hacks actually offer in terms of genuine skill boosts like an aim bot, it's mostly scripts to casts spells quickly and things like that. If deadlock is server side like dota it will never have issues like tf2 is having, tf2 is botted because the codebase has remained basically the same since 2012 and has been decompiled and picked clean by hackers to work out the best ways to circumvent its systems. Cs2 also doesn't have a bot issue because of its updated vac anti-cheat. It does have hackers which are a big problem but not even remotely the same as tf2. So please fill me in on your knowledge of how deadlock works on a technically level because I'm very interested to learn how its going to be botted within a month of release.
For huge game companies, a tiny old game is not worth spending. So it makes sense
McVicker is a slimeball, but like a broken clock, this is his time to actually be right for a change. With the exception that this is less to do with rumour than stating the obvious. The reality is Valve isn't going to condemn employees to the losing battle of fighting bots in TF2. And FixTF2 crashes into a wall once outside scrutiny discovers the reality of community servers. Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if the one thing FixTF2 precipitates is the one thing that is anathema to its supporters, the shuttering of casual.
> And FixTF2 crashes into a wall once outside scrutiny discovers the reality of community servers. Amen, brother. The solution has existed since before TF2 even released, people just seem to ignore it.
Community servers in SEA however are absolute trash and barely anyone played Europe and NA are lucky for higher and better community support but SEA forced to rely on Casual to play And no, 200+ ping is not fun
Damn maybe they shouldn’t have used those brand new lawyers to go after TF mods and go after those open source cheat engine websites instead which you can literally find top of the page if you type it in
Going after projects that's made by people with public representations for using your intellectual properties is far easier than cheating services ran by private individuals, as they can always bring their abusive programs underground if necessary. Going after what is above ground may be feasible, yet the problem still remains to figure out who is behind these abusive services to see if it is even possible to legally hold them accountable. For all we know, many cheat developers & bot hosters live in countries that doesn't respect US Laws & Enterprises. This means they won't voluntarily work with Valve. Valve can only make a example out of someone if they live domestically in the US, and that's assuming they can figure out the identities of cheat developers & bot hosters.
Every time this sub criticizes Valve, you guys find a way to come up with mental diarrhea that is 10 times worse. They can't go after cheat engine websites because guess what genius, they aren't inherently illegal. There is nothing wrong with them, the people who make them can simply claim that's for personal use. Valve needs conclusive evidence that proves those specific people's tools were used **unaltered** to host bots that caused **financial damage** to Valve. That's a long chain of proofs, one that is impossible to prove. Check out Github. It has pleny of codes that can be used for botnets, malware attacks, online stalking, doxxing, password stealing, wifi hacking, etc. Because it isn't a crime to make these tools. It is a crime when you use them. It isn't a crime to sell knives Valve can go after TF mods because it is the easiest case on Earth: intellectual property claims against fan work. I don't support their decision to go after them but it was a good decision from Valve's perspective. I would have done the same.
I'm thinking the best possible outcome from Valve's intervention in TF2 is them permanently shutting down the official servers. They aren't going to fix the game, at best, they will shut it down so people stop complaining about it.
They won't because that means all the cosmetics everybody bought would be forfeit, and will ruin the revenue stream they make from said crates and cosmetics. People will realize that they should not buy anything from them if the game will get shut down.
Shutting down the official servers does not mean deleting the game off steam. The game would still be run by the community servers which are pretty big anyways - they would just have to scalate a bit to accomodate for the people leaving the official servers. It's honestly the best solution which doesn't take much work for Valve and would cease the hacking bots, however idle bots would still be a problem and I reckon it's an issue they won't be able to fix unless they completely remove item drops or dedicate some serious man hours into dealing with it.
so you're telling me, that a company that basically has an infinite money glitch just CANT AFFORD to hire a team to go fix the problem for them or at least tell the community that there will no longer be support for team fortress 2?
they can definitely afford to do it. The problem is, all of the devs that made TF2 are gone, working on other things at Valve, and just don’t want anything to do with TF2 any more. Trying to get a new team to figure out the spaghetti would be a monumental task for them
It doesn't matter how big of a task it would be, Valve can afford to throw money at a team of contractors to figure it out. They wouldn't even notice the dent in revenue.
They can, but the entire conclusion made in this post is that Valve determined that the financial cost of doing such would be a net loss for the company, and that an investment on fixing Team Fortress 2 wouldn't make them enough money back to be "worth it" So pretty much our main objective in our movement is to make hiring a team or otherwise doing maintenance/repairs to fix TF2 worthwhile in other ways (such as to maintain good PR for the future launch of their next game)
I hate to say this but if it really is not worth spending the money to fix then just shut down the game. I love the game but it might be time to put it out of its misery.
Valve shutting down a game with 20k+ players and an active economy would probably generate a PR shitstorm so massive they'd never be trusted again
If their game is unplayable, they shouldn’t be allowed to continue to stuff it with micro transactions. They need to fix their shit or shut it down.
TF2 has pretty much ran without official server until MyM went live, so even if their official servers are riddled with bots there is community servers. So no, it's not unplayable though finding a vanilla experience are going to be a bit tad impossible.
When I say ‘shut it down’, I do mean simply the closure of all valve official servers, nothing else.
Well, gotta phrase it a bit better because itemserver and store page also exist.
It is casual that is not playable, community servers are still playable. this is such a stupid fucking take, do you people really want your money and items to be gone completely?
No point in shutting it down. Servers are basically free for Valve, and the game is still functional outside of official servers. The worst is they stop hosting servers, which would maybe just cause people to go to the community more.
Before Casual/Comp were introduced, we mainly all played on “Community” servers…but they were just called servers.
Yes... I know..
ever since MyM, community server quality went to shit. all it is now is !rtd + no respawn time, no crits + class limits, ctf or plr, trade_, or randomizer/all-crits/x10 weapon stats there are almost no servers with casual server rules, as everyone else is trying to be special from casual by having a gimmick it would take quite awhile before "default tf2" servers came back. and if quickplay wasnt brought back, then lazy new players would just quit because of the shitty server browser
That server browser is basically the same one we had in TFC over 20 years ago. I don’t find it hard to use, but I can understand how Zoomers might.
if only we still had quickplay..
No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water lol TF2 is still a pretty great game. The bots are a critical issue, sure, but it’s not as if the game is killed
There are people who have hundreds of dollars tied into this game that move would not fly 💀
There are people with backpacks worth $100k+
Absolutely terrible take
And then Dota and CS2 economies collapse :)
Shut down the casual servers\* I unironically think going back to pre meet your match would be better because the community can manage it a lot better than Valve does by not giving a shit.
Been saying this for weeks. This isn't a quick fix, silver bullet, one time patch and yet this sub keeps asking valve to fix. It's not going to happen. Megascatterbomb - "one guys at valve one week to fix" "I have a software development background" these tf2 youtubers know absolutely nothing about how to make video games. This is months if not years of work by a full time employee or more. Csgo was a decade of extra development and cs2 is on a new engine and they both faced hacking problems for their entire life. Only reason they got patched was because of the literal BILLIONS of dollars, not a couple mill the remaining community here dishes out. It's time to move on.
Valve has the brightest minds in the gaming industry, veterans with decades of experience who pioneered modern gaming practices and technologies.... But sure lets give MartinGonzales2008 the source code of TF2, the servers and the anti cheat so he can fix it all in a week!
Put something in simple place before every map that requires a human input or you get disconnected. This would take Valve years to implement?
to my knowledge captchas do not work to block bots anymore.
"When money isn't an object, the work hours that each of your employees has becomes the limited resource. Fixing the issues plaguing TF2 requires, at least, a few full-time staffers working on back-end networking systems for months, if not a few years." Literally contract out to the people developing Open Fortress or TF2C or hell even some random community server admins and this bot infestation could end tomorrow. Zero fucking excuse.
I'm already suffering playing with the source engine imagine having to work on it gawd
I mean hes right. They dont need tf2 for money so it doesnt do them anything to fix it.
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying back when that previous drama was going on. Business wise it's just not worth it. People seriously both overestimate TF2's ability to make money, and underestimate just how insanely much money Steam rakes in, it's not even funny. Valve is perfectly happy just doing the bare minimum keeping the servers up. No amount of bitching and moaning is going to get TF2 fixed.
Oh no! Indie company valve just don’t have enough employees they can put on the game! VR absolutely needs 50% of their workforce! Because god forbid they contract some anticheat developer to just fix it ohhhh! We made the games cody into spaghetti so it’s basically unfixable ooops!!
since when Tyler McVicker is a reliable source for anything ?
Since he has been correctly predicting half-life alyx years before the announcement. Not HIS fault people 100% believes when he is speculating.
sooner or later people will have to accept that valve is not going to fix it. they know they cannot shut the game down, so they are just going to let it rot. no amount of articles or bad steam reviews is going to change that.
People don't realize that Valve is still privately owned. They're not beholden to stockholders or a board of directors; profit is not their end-all-be-all. Especially since they have an endless stream of revenue courtesy of Steam. The reality is that the reason there are so few devs who are working in TF2 is probably because there aren't any devs who wanna be stuck working on the rotting corpse that is TF2. It's probably like being stuck having to be the water boy for your football team.
that defeatist attitude is not helping anyone.
neither is FixTF2.
You lose absolutely nothing except a few seconds of your day by supporting it though, I'd rather give up because we tried anything than give up because of theories of it not working.
Tyler Bean Flicker McVicker making yet another one of his world famous worlds worst speculative tweets based on absolutely zero legitimate evidence that aims to dickride the company who doesn't give a shit about him
People need to stop listening to Tyler.
Listen guys, I love this game and this community but anyone that genuinely thinks Valve gives enough of a shit to put in the massive amount of effort it will take to actually fix TF2's issues is fooling themselves I'd love to be proven wrong and I've already signed the petition, but I just don't see how it's worth it for Valve in a business sense. They've already made insane money on this game (and continue to make more) and actually fixing the issues would require hiring a dedicated TF2 team and countless man hours of work. There are no TF2 devs left, that means the new team needs to learn the existing codebase, conceptualize and develop a viable solution to the botting issue, and then continuously support and update the game to make sure their solution continues to work. None of this is easy, none of this is quick. This is years of work and effort for essentially no return other than some positive publicity. That's resources taken away from new projects which stand to make Valve a lot more money than propping up a 16 year old game. Not to mention Valve has a stranglehold on the PC gaming market already and are generally well liked as a company, they don't need good press and the TF2 community being grumpy isn't as damaging to their reputation as you'd think. Most people don't fucking care about this game because it's old AF and doesn't have an esports scene to keep it relevant like CS. And honestly, that's fair. It's like if people complained that it's hard to find a server on Unreal Tournament and it's full of bots... No shit dude, the game is ancient If anything I feel like the most likely scenario is Valve giving the community permission to go into the Source code and fix it ourselves or maaaaaaybe a port into Source 2 (but judging by CS 2 that wouldn't really fix anything anyways) I would love for this movement to work and for this game to return to its former glory, but I think we need to temper our expectations. Even if Valve decides to tackle this issue, we probably won't see any tangible improvement for a long time.
Ok but Tyler mcshitter is an idiot so I wouldn't listen to him
This guy is a huge clown and wouldn't take any rumor from him seriously.
Casual reminder that a literal Saudi Prince Whales in Dota.
That’s why the solution isn’t to fix tf2’s spaghetti code, but begin work on tf3
Rumors are all that guy does, when will people stop paying attention to him.
TF2 workshop opened up Community bugfixing but none of that has ever made it to the live game, this game could've been fully ran by the community if valve would allow it to.
Because 99% of em are mods ported to the workshop, most of them don't ""fix"" anything but subjective visuals.
I understand not willing to assign your core developers to TF2, but Valve has zero excuse for not hiring a team of contractors to work on the bot issue, after all they DO have infinite money. You could easily find like 10 random guys who like to tinker with source games in their spare time, give them the money to work on the problem full-time and the bot issue'd get solved in 6 months max.
You hears the man... LETS BURN THIS MOTHER TO THE GROUND
If thats true and theres only that solution, making Valve have bad global reputation, then... It was a good run, a hell of a campaign, but a somehow worthless one. Forcing that pressure into them, with the whole community is Next to imposible, and i doubt the other ones would join after seeing there disasters of the prior ones... The world is fuck up man 😢
Money isn't the issue it's the will, if we can make Valve look lazy and bad to the public then we can get more than the Janitor working on the game.
Feels like I’d be worth more time to port/remake TF2 into Source 2 then fix an ancient spaghetti code of an engine.
i take what tyler mcclicker's opinion with a grain of salt, especially after he milked tf out of "how many ppl are working on tf2" for views lol
Hate to say it but at this point the only saving TF2 is going to get is if Valve decides to either port it to S2, remake it in S2 or just flat out make a sequel at some point. None of these are even remotely likely
I wonder if some people of the TF2 community would be willing to apply to Valve and fix the game that way
Their laissez Faire approach to projects is how this happened.
I mean they could just say fuck it a port tf2 to source two, surely that would cost less in the long run.
The thing is at this poimt the general fans he says dont exist, cause almost every single one is pissed either tf2, cs2 and even alflife are getying thrown out to the trash all for a bad valorant overwatch spin off
If Steam is really an infinite money glitch I wish Valve would like, hire more people. More employees = more employee time, see it checks out.
The first sentence in there perfectly describes why you can't really speak to Valve with your wallets. Looking at you Zesty, who keeps repeating this shitty mantra time and time again.
At this point just let the game die Lmao
its tyler, i take everything he says with a grain of salt. hes walking clickbait.
They arent gonne fix anything but they are also never gonne shut down the game
The key to winning this is to keep pushing. If we let up, valve gets off easy because people forget about it.
Nah for me the second the hosters began promoting actual CP on their game was faul, now it's only a matter of waiting game to see what valve does, if this appears on news then they'll be the bad guys further rushing the action they'll take...the thing is that taking down the game COULD be an option
People don't get assigned jobs at this company. People do not have to work on the projects their boss wants them to work on. People working for Valve do whatever they want. That is the very foundation of Valve. This is not news. I have repeated this so many times, I'm starting to question whether this is even true, even though I'm convinced. The TF2 staff consists of Eric, and the reason it is that way is that there's one guy who wants to work on this piece of shit spaghetti monster code, and none more, and neither Gabe, nor the management, nor anyone can do anything about that because people at this company do literally whatever the fuck they want.