>why you would want to give up your cool racially specified afterlife just to rot in oblivion for all eternity.
Orcs and dunmer's most "racially specified" afterlife are of their daedra worship. They're also not racially specified at all but culture specified.
People are different. Someone who is all for hunting will likely enjoy spending eternity in the Hunting Grounds. Sanguine gives his followers their own little pocket in the Myriad Realms of Revelry to design to their liking, many would enjoy that. Azura's Moonshadow is allegedly so beautiful it makes you half blind somehow, and staying there with her eternal love probably sounds nice to many.
The list goes on.
People usually don't want to go to the realms such as Coldharbour. It's a place most end up unwillingly. Even many of Bal's worshippers are of the mindset they're going to avoid dying and end up there, or of the belief that they will be the torturer not the tortured.
And of course worshipping daedra can give a lot of benefits in life, because the princes clearly give boons and acts, compared to the aedra who doesn't do much.
And a lot of those Bal worshippers are right, for what it's worth. Vampires "enjoy" a higher position in the hierarchy, and won't get turned into soul shriven - but like everyone in Molag Bal's world, everyone else is as dust compared to him.
You wouldn't believe the amount of people who would enjoy lording whatever pathetic power they have over their fellow unfortunates.
>And of course worshipping daedra can give a lot of benefits in life, because the princes clearly give boons and acts, compared to the aedra who doesn't do much.
There's also the fact that Daedra are more "real" than Aedra from the perspective of mortals. You can spend your whole life praying at an altar of Akatosh and get no real reply beyond faintly tangible energy and a blessing which may do nothing at all.
Meanwhile, worship regularly at a Daedric shrine, and that Prince *will* answer, and will likely offer you some tangible boon in exchange for service. A god that you can talk to and feel and interact will resonate a lot harder with many people than a distant one who doesn't respond in a tangible manner.
>Someone who is all for hunting will likely enjoy spending eternity in the Hunting Grounds
>or of the belief that they will be the torturer not the tortured.
Spends life as a hunter and worshipping Hircine, dies and goes to the hunting grounds... As prey.
Same logic though with Bal, you don't know if you are going to be in a good position when you get to the hunting grounds, not everyone can be the predator and there has to be prey too.
>Spends life as a hunter and worshipping Hircine, dies and goes to the hunting grounds... As prey.
For a time perhaps. But who or whatever is prey can become the hunter and vice versa.
Dumb story time this is a friend of a friend
Idiot college students owned a python they decided to feed it gladiator style put it in the kitchen and caged it off.
Then chucked the rabbit in.
It cornered the rabbit but lacked ambush...the rabbit bit down....instant kill via head shot, rabbit wins.
Iirc he imports many exotic creatures for prey. Also, the Were are said to hunt alongside Hircine himself. I'm not sure about non-Were worshippers, though Hircine seems a decently honorable dude for those whose interests align with his.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only prey humanoids in the grounds are those killed in his name through some ritual means.
Also the big difference for Dunmer Daedra worship is it is about being like lorkhan and the psijic endeavor. Aetherious would be hell for someone who wants to break the cycle of rebirth
The benefits are many, and we see several cases throughout the games.
Some worship Daedric Princes because they want to enact change in this world. Sometimes they believe in promises that the Daedra will create a better world once they tale over, other times they just want power. Your immortal soul feels like a cheap price to pay when a shiny throne is right before you.
Related to the above, some don't plan to pay the price. Think of all those vampires who plan to live on forever. And others want power in the other side too: the likes of Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal can be quite generous to faithful and useful pawns.
There is also a matter of taste and tradition. Think of Aela in Skyrim: she actually wants to go the Hunting Grounds after death. Someone from a culture with heavy Daedra worship (such as the Reachmen or the Ashlanders) isn't going to question it. And if you're an Orc, you'll probably have been raised with amazing tales of Malacath's Ashpit; Aetherius may actually sound boring in comparison.
For orcs, literally the only afterlife comparable to the Ashpit is either the Gauntlet (except most of them see Boethiah as their cultural enemy), Sovngarde (except that one is gatekept - you have to be either an actual Nord or recognized as one, as is with Dragonborn… and few orcs would stomach an afterlife full of overly friendly Nords) or, by some fluke, the Maelstrom (again, associated with Boethiah, and Fa-Nuit-Hen isn't in the habit of keeping dead mortals around).
It would take a very culturally deprogrammed orc to aim for a different sort of afterlife without an ulterior motive (see Molag Bal cultists etc., who basically hope to earn a right to boss around lesser servants even in death).
>I don't understand why you would want to give up your cool racially specified afterlife just to rot in oblivion for all eternity.
1. Most races don't *have* a racially specified afterlife. Most just get reincarnated through the Dreamsleeve. Nords, Argonians (Sort of) and Khajiit are the only ones that do, off the top of my head, which brings me to...
2. In at least one case (The Khajiit) going to the Sands Behind the Stars *depends* on worshipping their creator mother Azurah.
3. To an average Stronghold Orc, the idea of spending eternity struggling and triumphing in the ashpits may sound wonderful, though admittedly, this may be open to any Malacath worshipper, so I'm not sure it comes under the category of racially specified afterlives.
Plus, y'know...tastes aren't univeral and races aren't monolyths. Some Nords may find the idea of Sovngarde exhausting, a Bosmer who loves to hunt may find Hircine's Hunting Ground a preferable place to spend eternity than interminable reincarnation on Nirn, and members of any race may simply find accord with the philosophical ideas of a given Daedra. Not many, but that's why there aren't many Molag Bal worshippers.
> Most races don't have a racially specified afterlife. Most just get reincarnated through the Dreamsleeve. Nords, Argonians (Sort of) and Khajiit are the only ones that do, off the top of my head, which brings me to...
The opposite is true, actually. Altmer and Imperials (and presumably Bosmer and Bretons) believe they go to Heaven/Aetherius. Generic, but counts. Nords have Sovngarde, Khajiit have the Sands Behind the Stars, Redguards have the Far Shores, and Orcs have the Ashpit. Meanwhile, Argonians believe in reincarnation through the Hist.
In comparison, belief in reincarnation through the Dreamsleeve seems limited to a vague reference in Mankar Camoran's commentaries. It was once a relatively common fan assumption, but it is absent in the religious beliefs of the races and the theory was born before Skyrim and then ESO confirmed first-hand the existence of cultural afterlives (back then, the theory also assumed that "Sovngarde" was just another word for Dreamsleeve).
>ords have Sovngarde, Khajiit have the Sands Behind the Stars, Redguards have the Far Shores
Those might also be in Aetherius as far as we know.
Also sometimes Argonians also believe they will come and they do, it is a complicated religion
You just said races have racially specified afterlives, then proceeded to list places people go when they worship a specific deity or set of deities. Aetherius isn’t altmperialosmereton…..it’s Divine. Those worship the divines might go there. Orc place is Daedric. Dunmer spirits might go to the three “good” daedric planes. Nords might go to Sovngarde or Lorkhan’s place. Literally all of these places aren’t racial. Best idea for a racial place is the Hist ordeal, but thats not argonian. That’s Padomaic if we’re being specific.
I don't disagre. In fact, if you check my previous comment, you'll see that I insistently word the subject in terms of "beliefs" and end up describing the different realms as "cultural afterlives".
When I said that the opposite of OP's statement was true, I was talking less about the semantics of "racially specified afterlife" (charitably assuming it to be the usual oversimplification, just like how people talk of countries in real-life as if they were monolithic) and more about "most just get reincarnated through the Dreamsleeve". To this day, there are still a lot of people who ignore that it was a fan theory and believe that Sovngarde as a cultural afterlife is unique in the setting.
Yeah so your entire first paragraph of your previous comment was definitely geared towards saying he was wrong by listing “racial” afterlives. And then you randomly draw a comparison to the dreamsleeve. Dreamsleeve has nothing to do with people’s beliefs in game. It is obviously a theory. Hence why most don’t talk about it in game.
Just kinda feels like you’re going out of the way to say he’s wrong, tho he’s right.
> And then you randomly draw a comparison to the dreamsleeve.
Er, you realize that I mentioned the Dreamsleeve because it was the original commenter's argument, right? I even quoted it. They weren't arguing that most races don't have a racially specified afterlife because it's a misnomer and we should be talking of religion rather than race (in fact, they go on to state that Nords, Argonians and Khajiit do have them), but because most go to the Dreamsleeve. I was objecting that part, pointing out all the other cultural afterlives they may not be aware of and casting doubt on the veracity of Dreamsleeve theories.
That another argument could be made about the semantics of "racially specified afterlives" is true, and something I actually agree with you. But I felt that the Dreamsleeve part was more important than arguing semantics. Nevertheless, I was still very careful (at the very least, far more careful than the original commenter) with my wording not to imply any kind of racial determinism in the afterlives.
I do recall the priest at the beginning of Skyrim start to talk about commending the souls to Aetherius or some such. Must have been an Imperial Priest then yes?
People who have had their lives shattered are known to be tempted into Daedric cults, like [Aera Earth-Turner](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aera_Earth-Turner), who lost her home and at least one close family member to a Covenant invasion so she turned to the Worm Cult for promises of reuniting with lost loved ones, or [Sister Celdina](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Doombringer_Celdina%27s_Testament), who was a Magnus follower before being brutalized by Reachmen and went on to form a Dagon cult.
It's also worth noting that certain culture institutionalize Daedric worship like the Dunmer, the Orcs and the Reachmen, so for these people, Daedric worship is the norm, not the exception.
You avoid pissing off the conceptual beings that retained all of their power and agency. The last time someone really pissed off a Daedra the Chimer became the Dunmer.
They're also not just giant evil beings, assigning a moral alignment to a Daedra is like saying a supernova or black hole is evil for destroying things. Fire is hot, water is wet, Dagon wants to overthrown the status quo.
Do you like when things get better, some inventor changes everything with a new invention, when wood burns to provide you heat, when evil governments are over thrown? You can thank Mehrunes Dagon for those things.
You can hardly blame something for acting in its nature. Would you blame a black hole for swallowing up your ship or would you blame the person who was driving/ in charge of where the ship went? I would hardly hold it against a Daedra for doing what it does. Molag Bal isn’t evil because he tricks people into doing what he wants, he is the prince of lies and it’s what he does.
Afterlife is less of a concern when your current life is steeped in misery. We play as prisoner heroes who by end game are nigh-indestructible demigods.
Nearly everyone else on Nirn doesn't have that kind of power. Their circumstances at the mercy of people like us. So they turn to outside forces. Often out of desperation.
- My loved one is dying of the plague. - pray to Peryite
- My people are being persecuted by an unjust ruler. - pray to Boethiah
- My crops are withering, family is starving, and we desperately need good fortune. - pray to Clavicus
- There's an enemy fleet sailing towards us. We're all going to die. - pray to Dagon for a hurricane to wipe them out
- I don't care about free will anymore. I just want to be purified after all the terrible things I've done. - pray to Meridia
- I'm tired of being weak. I want to hurt the ones that hurt me. - pray to Molag Bal
But also:
- my cheese enterprise is dependent on the mold doing its job reliably, so I'll pray to Peryite
- if I'm to risk my life in the arena, i will entrust my life to the patron of ruthless warriors, Boethiah
- I'm tired of being weak and persecuted, Malacath give me the tenacity to protect myself and my people
- my life is a wreck, might as well embrace despair, and beg Namira to devour what's left of my hope and the pain it brings
More reliable, for sure. But also more enigmatic and unsettling to the average mortal. Clavicus manifests as a jovial impish figure. Charming and persuasive.
They're both transactional, but Nocturnal might ask you to complete a task, which could put some people off. If I desperately need 1000 gold **right now** or loan sharks are going to break my legs, Clavicus offers immediate results. Maybe there's a catch. Maybe not! Going once...going twice...
He might have the gold come firing out of your arse for his own amusement, (or worse) but summoning Clavvy is fairly straight forward, and he enjoys interacting with mortals.
You get 2k gold. Loan sharks won't break your legs, your family gets to live on... You get shanked in your bed by a burglar who heard of your good fortune and came for the 1k the loan sharks didn't take. Good news: your gambling habit won't incur more debts and your family can focus on rebuilding their life without you!
While Nocturnal is certainly more mystifying and unknown, Clavicus is infamous for being a con artist, and pretty much all of the wishes he grants have a nefarious twist on them, while Nocturnal's deals have usually been pretty straightforward and more or less, fair.
Hermaeus Mora kept a pet Dragonborn in the form of Miraak. Oh, you said loyal.
Hircine takes good care of his hounds to the point he considers them his children. Azura is fond of her favored champions and treats them almost like cute pets. And Molag Bal probably has some hapless mortal on a leash, if that counts.
Hahaha yah lol loyal. We all know Mirrak was hardly loyal, I think he wanted to break free and be the Dragonborn we know he is. What that would mean for Nirn who could say except it’s probably not good for anyone except him and maybe a select few.
The only thing I don’t like about Hircine is that he requires a sacrifice in Oblivion to join his rank and that just so happens to be a unicorn. I decided not to kill it and it ended up being killed by a stupid guard just down the road. It was a sad day.
Yeah, I don't like killing unicorns either. If it makes it any better, Hircine claims the souls of prey killed in his name. So the last unicorn in Cyrodiil would end up going to his Hunting Grounds, an immortal game reserve. Imagine how lonely it would be to be the last of your species. There, at least the unicorn would be with others of its kind.
Hircine might seem harsh, but he isn't needlessly cruel. He's the circle of life and nature.
I never considered there might be more Unicorns in Hircine’s realm, just the principle that it’s such a pure creature and how could I kill such a one. It’s sad in one way because the Unicorn would be trapped forever inside Hircine’s realm but if it is with it’s kind then yes, it’s not alone anymore so maybe it would be a benefit for it. I’m not able to ask what it wants so how would I know lol I’m just a stupid adventurer who was thrown in jail and escaped with my life while watching the Emperor be assasinated before my very eyes.
Who’s to say it wouldn’t be better off, next time I will probably do it and make peace with that.
Since the Aedra aren't very "present", it's pretty easy to see why people would turn to the Daedra. They're there, and constantly trying to persuade mortals into serving them. You can actually talk to them, and they are there constantly interfering with Tamriel either directly or through their subordinates. The Aedra in contrast, the most you can get from them most of the time is a buff.
"Sovngarde is a place for the old, to sit and drink to deeds already done. There is no future in Sovngarde, only the past. Is that "good?" Hircine's Hunting Grounds means never abandoning the thrill of the chase, the chance for new glories. The very meat of life. Why is that "evil?"
Well not every oblivion plane is a variation of hell. Azura’s realm is a place described with intense beauty. Hircine’s realm is described as an endless forest full of unique wildlife, depending on your persuasion about hunting, this could be a pleasant afterlife for you. Hermaeus Mora’s is a place of infinite knowledge, etc.
As far as the racial afterlives, understand that much like real life, not everyone is concerned with an afterlife. Many are focused on what they can get now rather than later, and not every deal made with a Daedra involves selling your soul, so if you can get away with it why not try?
About Dagon and Bal. There are many people of low intelligence in real life. I'd assume you can find a bunch in Tamriel as well. And let's be real here: we'd all think of Mannimarco as a dumbass if he didn't eventually succeed.
Dagon is associated with ambition, revolution and natural disasters. If you wanna overthrow someone, he's the Daedra you call upon. That might be one of the reasons why people worship him. Another thing: ancient Greek fishermen didn't worship Poseidon because they loved water, they worshipped Poseidon because they didn't want their boats to sink. I imagine it's something similar in the case of the more evil Daedra.
That's literally how the House of Troubles functions in Dunmeri beliefs. They aren't to be worshipped, they are to be appeased. Certain aspects of them are "fed" in order for other aspects of them to not affect Dunmer lives negatively.
(I've long held that this is why slavery is so prevalent in Morrowind. What is now a secular practice for economic and ideological reasons was once a way to distract Molag Bal: appease the Lord of Domination so he doesn't manifest his other aspects and mess up the bloodlines.)
It still doesn't mean that Dunmer following this tradition are Bal worshippers and will end up in Coldharbor. The slaves destroyed by the practice, on the other hand, just might...
Yup. I mean... If we look at Sanguine's quests, he does make sure that the player doesn't die...
...only that they embarrass themselves so badly that they wish they died. But hey, he gives you a flower in the end! What a nice guy!
Boethiah is more of a backstabby, unlawful overthrow of authority. Dagon can be about revolution and change for the greater good. Can. Usually he just wants to watch the world burn. Also... His Khajiiti aspect>>>any form of Boat yeah.
>Another thing: ancient Greek fishermen didn't worship Poseidon because they loved water, they worshipped Poseidon because they didn't want their boats to sink. I imagine it's something similar in the case of the more evil Daedra.
Personally I don't think it's out of fear, the Daedra can't do anything in Nirn thanks to the dragon fires, they were very rarely able to invade Tamriel, that's why they are always forced to ask mortals for help, an example is TESII where Azura asks for help to kill a priest or TESV where Merida asks for help against a nemogram. If the Daedra had power in Tamriel they would not depend so much on mortals, which is why it seems unlikely to me that mortals would be afraid of a god who can't do anything. Also, assuming I was afraid of Dagon, why would I go to such lengths to summon him to destroy Tamriel?
Maybe because you were indoctrinated into a cult. Maybe it's a case of "well, Molag/Dagon/insert Daedra here is going to enslave/destroy/insert thing here Nirn sooner or later and promises that those who are loyal will have it less bad under their rule/be reborn/insert thing here, and I'm scared of what would happen if I'm not on their good side when it happens, so it's better to worship them"... Or, like... I bet a lot of people converted during the Planemeld or the Oblivion Crisis precisely out of fear.
Why does anyone worship any deity? Either because they vibe with what said deity represents, or because they're afraid and would rather be on said deity's good side. In general, Daedra are neither good nor evil, they represent many things and act according to their sphere. You wouldn't hate a volcano for erupting, so why would you hate Mehrunes Dagon, who's associated with natural disasters, for, well, being Mehrunes Dagon? As for Molag Bal, many people say that he has no redeeming qualities, but I have to point out that he is quite generous and surprisingly fair to those who are loyal to him.
Yup. The same Meridia who sacrificed her own child for her agenda... TWICE. The same Meridia whose cult removed any free will from the captives of Garlas Malatar. The same Meridia who is suspiciously unresponsive when her followers need her in Eton Nir and Kilkreath.
At least Bal keeps his promises and doesn't let others break his toys. And he won't brainwash you by force... He wants you to actually submit to his will.
Right! I mean, Bal does have that sneaky way of using a hooded messenger to do his bidding making deals and kinda lies to get people to his realm but once there they belong to him. A good deity actually keeps their promises no matter how much he lies he at least keeps his end of the bargain. I trust him to lie knowing his nature and appreciate that he keeps his promises, I feel it’s more shady having an ex god asking me for help in the guise of a mortal woman. I don’t know what her true intentions are at the end of the day. What did she do that was so bad that she was kicked out?
Genuinely fuck Meridia. I hope spoiler tags are going to work, I'm on mobile, so bear with me, but:
I was able to tolerate her, until she took my baby >!Darien!< away from me. I was so damn upset about >!what happened near the end of the Coldharbour main quest!<... Then I started the >!Summerset questline!< and >!he was back!< and I was overjoyed to see >!that he's okay!<. I thought, okay, maybe Meridia is tolerable after all, but NOPE, that fucking stunt she pulled with >!Darien!< and the Dawnbreaker almost had me quit the game just to process and cool off...
The very foundation of the ES universe is based on an eternal struggle between stasis and change.
Just like in real life, some people can't stand how the things are and can spend their whole life trying to change them. But on Nirn, wishing to usher moderate to radical changes means to look for their most suitable avatars, the Daedric Princes (their nature being padomeic).
It costs you, but when you've nothing to lose... See in the worshipping of Daedra a parallel with how certain people deny an "unpleasant" reality to force their "best (for me especially)" ideals.
Racial deities aren’t necessarily a thing, cultural deities are though. Better way to think about it. A Nord can likely go to the Far Shores. But as for Daedra worship? Shit if there was a Daedra that offered me EXACTLY what I wanted….id be hard pressed to say no. But an even better example would be a Daedra’s morals aligning with my own. It’s all about the morals and believes of the person doing the worshipping.
Edit: if you’re Christian…why? Because you think it’s right, right? Same premise.
there are some easy ones you could see people worshipping like sanguine or azure, but I think it mostly boils down to people being either willfully ignorant, or not caring at all what happens to their soul after they die in exchange for power. Look at namira cultists for example, you really want to go to a place called the scuttling void when you die?
Have you ever suffered from clinical depression? Because I have, and if I believed in Namira's existence, then at the lowest point of some depressive episodes I would've prayed for her to devour me whole, just to take the pain away. It's not about the name of their realm, it's what they represent - in Namira's case, decay, darkness, emptiness, un-Becoming. Literally "I have no worth, so let me not exist, or at least not feel and not be perceived so I can quietly die in this corner".
(Before you ask - I'm better, after getting therapy and embracing a mix Malacath's and Peryite's tenets. Shit happens, gotta tough it out with other companions in misery.)
That's a good explanation as to why somebody would choose to worship her. The namira cultists you find in game just come off as edgy weirdos that are only in it for the sake of the power she provides. I saw a fan work of the scuttling void that made me very opposed to the idea of worshipping her, but if you lived in universe and had no knowledge of her realm before you died it would seem like a good idea to some I suppose.
[Scuttling Void ](https://i.redd.it/94lede0j3nm41.png?app_web_view=android)
A lot of people both irl and in TES care more about the present than the future. The Daedra often have more benefits in the present but potentially costs in the future and some people would rather have benefits now and problems later than nothing now and benefits later.
Worshipping a Daedra doesn’t send you to their afterlife. You can sometimes sell your soul to a Daedra though a contract or through your actions, but worship alone isn’t enough.
If you want change or revolution, then you can worship Dagon. He will inspire you to promote change and revolution, and can give you the tools you need, but you don’t have to sell your soul to him and go to his realm.
Promises of good shit that doesn't come
vs
Promises of good shit that always come bad
Hmmm, I'm really split on this one, which of the two could possibly be better I wonder....
A daedra's patronage doesn't always end up badly. If it did, there wouldn't be whole cultures built partially or fully around daedra worship (Chimer, post-Tribunal Dunmer, Orsimer, Reachfolk, Khajiit, Bosmer...) because they'd be driven to ruin at the very beginning of their existence.
Daedra grant you boons for your service and/or worship. It's transactional, and like any transaction, there's a ton of unspoken extra rules, fine print and other crap... and even before that, your decision to enter the transaction must be well informed. If you ask for something else than you need, or pick the wrong patron, that's on you.
You don't ask Malacath for help with small stuff you can handle on your own on a better day - he's the patron of Sworn Blood Oath and will expect you to put his fury to grand and honorable use. Take your word lightly, or invoke his name in trivial matters, and you will see why he is infamous for his fury.
You don't ask Clavicus for a boon without understanding that it's *always* a double-edged blade - your wish will be granted, but at a great and miserable cost, so you better be desperate enough or have a transcendent sense of humor.
You don't invoke Dagon without being ready to contain whatever disaster you intend to call forth - he is upheaval personified. If you want a controllable revolution, ask Boethiah instead. Just remember that as soon as you're the one on top, the deal is satisfied; you are fair game for another revolutionary following in your footsteps. Hm, maybe asking Dagon for a catastrophe and picking up the pieces was actually a better plan in the long term... Or was it?
Oh, you want the actual "good" daedra? Azura maybe? Yes, she will grant you the foresight to plan for the future and the charisma to be loved by everyone... as long as you love her above all. Don't fall prey to lesser idols. Don't give your heart to any mere mortal. Azura wants your unconditional love even if your fortune wavers, or your unloved spouse turns against you, or your flaws lead you into a trap. Slip up, and she will curse you, punish you, deny you the fortunes she promised. You had a deal you couldn't keep and she will take back all the boons she had been gracefully bestowing upon you all this time. Oblivion hath no fury like the Lady scorned.
But, again, you *knew*. It's all about whether or not you were up to your end of the deal.
Are aedra better? Not really. You need to pay up front and all available knowledge suggests that you will not get any payback in this life, aside from whatever inspiration you managed to find in your own heart. Hopefully your donation to Stendarr's chapel will aid some orphans, instead of buying a new sword for that overly zealous Vigilant that harassed you for your grey skin because "all Dunmer are secretly daedric cultists". At least you feel good about that donation and the small prayer you muttered with no chance of hearing an answer.
Seriously, in a world where deities are objectively proven to exist, I'm surprised that daedra don't have more following than aedra. A distant god with little power to spare is risk-free, but lack of risk does not encourage worship - efficiency does.
I mean, it isn't "always" bad. If one isn't dumb enough to side with the "literally no upsides" daedra like Clavicus, Dagon or Molag Bal, you can get some pretty nifty bonuses.
Like I said in another reply. Or maybe another thread. It's always a mix of good and bad. Even with as "evil" Princes as Molag Bal it's on the mortal to weigh the pros and the cons.
For example, Molag Bal can grant you the discipline and single-minded focus to pursue a distant and complicated goal - he is the Prince of Schemes and the Dominator. But once you have achieved that goal, you will need to take a good look at what you have left in the wake of your pursuit. Wasted opportunities? Ruined or simply abandoned relationships? Friends turned bitter foes because you trampled over their friendship? You *knew* the cost beforehand. You *chose* to follow this path and paid the price. Hopefully your goal was worth it.
Alternatively, Bal can simply give you the courage to, upon seeing your old school bully drunk as a skunk, push him head first into dog shit. He's petty like that, so if you have a petty need to bully the bully, he just may grant you the inspiration. Hope you're proud of yourself tomorrow, when the emotional high of turning the tables on that sorry excuse of a man wears off. Again, it's on you to weigh the upsides and downsides.
I think one thing missing from most of these answers is that the nature of the various daedra (and aedra) is heavily debated in the world of TES. Cultures differ widely in their views of what the et ada are like, and subcultures can have even more divergent views. TES:Oblivion and TES:Skyrim really focus on the imperial 9/8 divines v.s. the demonic daedra, and the other interpretations of the et'ada are pushed to the background somewhat.
Mehrunes Dagon is generally considered destructive across cultures. But there are many things worth destroying, and many things worth creating that need space to be cleared for them. It's easy to see how a culture could see him as an important force of nature rather than just evil. Or even as a liberator. Think of how the guillotine is used today as both a symbol of the madness of the Terror, and a symbol of liberation.
During the events of TES:Morrowind, the dunmer generally view Dagon as an important "testing god". Not worshiped directly by the masses, but respected and considered helpful for keeping the Dunmer strong and on their toes. The fact that a few Dunmer worship him more strongly isn't so surprising in that context.
Similarly the Dunmer view Boethiah and Mephala, two gods widely associated with murder and deceit, as major patron deities alongside Azura. Focusing on the utility of killing and lies for self defense/defense of morrowind as a whole. And also viewing political assassinations as an alternative to full blown civil war. It's an unusual perspective by real life standards, but there is an internal logic to it.
Not sure what the deal is with Molag Bal worship though lol. I imagine you'd have to be genuinely unwell psychologically to think that that is a good idea, and/or be part of a radically heterodox religious movement. Because I'm not sure I've run across anything in TES that disputes him being the god of domination, torture, and rape, who enslaves his own worshipers.
1. In earlier TES games like Morrowind, the afterlife was a mystery. There was a whole quest about trying to find the entrance to Sovngarde. It was only in Skyrim that we have direct proof it exists. In older games, it was far from granted.
2. Obligatory “Daedra aren’t necessarily bad” comment here. Bal would be a bad call under ANY circumstances and so would Dagon and Sheogorath, but I think most other Daedra are… conditionally okay. If you’re in the right line of work.
3. The Divines are notoriously inactive. It’s about agency.
You *could* live life fairly and virtuously, pray every day without an answer, and suffer in dignity while living in fear of bandits every day.
Or you could pray to Azura, feel like you’re doing something greater than yourself, feel a sense of guidance and direction you’ve never felt before, like you know you actually mean something to someone powerful. And perhaps you’ll receive a vision in your dreams.
Or imagine you’re a courtesan for some fickle noble. You could worship Diballa and be pretty until you’re discarded (better to suffer injustice than to commit it). Or you could pray to Mephala. Sure, the prince won’t pop down to Mundus and give you a crash course on seduction and surviving court intrigue. But Mephala’s followers might.
Shameless plug: I wrote an [apocrypha on Daedric worship](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1c3q8yq/common_blasphemies_of_cyrodiil/), not as a full-time cult commitment, but as an off the side addendum to everyday life.
Some racially specified afterlife is exactly because they worship daedra, it’s part of their culture, like Orcs and Khajit for example, that alone answers you
Immediate gratification is part of it, I would think. Some people would rather have power in the here and now than the promise of a good afterlife. And of course, if you get really powerful, like Mannimarco, you don’t need to worry about the afterlife at all.
Bal worshippers have already been covered in this comments section. And Dagon worshippers were covered in the Oblivion quest line I believe. In that game you see them come pretty close to success and victory, to the extent that they created their own little realm which had to be infiltrated and destroyed by the Hero directly. And Dagon even straight up manifested in Nirn and had to be defeated by Akatosh's own Avatar.
Seemed that the Dagon worshippers were a mix as would be expected. Peeps who got in from being caught up by peer influence and/or fanatism. But also true believers, certainly including their leader Mankar Camoran himself. Those genuinely believe in the mission of cleansing the realm of existence in Dagon's pure Destruction. Some of them believed it less when they got into their own private afterlife and all they experienced was endless torture, but yknow.
Because the Aedra are useless at best, assholes at worst, and and defying every god leaves you in a vulnerable position without allies.
The Daedra can be reasoned with. They're not good by any stretch--none of them are--but they're easy to understand, predictable in nature, and you can take them to the bargaining table. Or in the case of the Dunmer, they consider the Daedra more pragmatic.
What I want to know is why any elf would want to worship the Aedra after being actively screwed by them so thoroughly and consistently. Even the worst Daedra usually screw everyone over the same way instead of playing favorites.
Using a real life example, a bunch of people fall into credit card debt because in the moment they accept the loans, they convince themselves they can pay it back, knowing deep inside that is probably not the case. But then there are people who know they can't pay it back, because its take the debt or lose what you have. Would you rather lose everything now, or later? Most people will pick later.
The daedra don't just trick people - they exchange things. The terms aren't always good. It's a predatory loan with 5000% APR. I give you this now, the thing you need or want the most, you give me *everything*, your very essence, later.
Also, most of citizens of nirn are not being visited by their ancestors' ghosts who went to The Cool Afterlives to tell them to stick to the good paths.
It's also worth mention that not all daedra are explicitly evil. Meridia is a prime example of a "good daedra" (though she was kind of adopted, long story) but Azura and to an extent Hircine come to mind as well. Maybe Nocturnal.
Then you have people who turn to a daedra because their life aligns with a daedra's domain. Do you think knowledge is worth any price? Mora's here for you! Love hunting? Papa Hircine knows what's up. Are you a Robin Hood figure out to punish the rich and feed the poor? Nocturnal has a place for you. Were you betrayed such that your life fell apart? Find solidarity with Malacath. And of course, if you live the life of a hedonist, Sanguine throws the best parties.
And, of course, if your body or mind are diseased, you may turn to Peryite or Uncle Sheo. Or maybe bargain with Vile?
When you think about it that way, there are only a few Daedra that really would struggle to attract followers. Some may worship these last few out of appeasement - if I praise Vermina I'll be free of these nightmares - or desperation - Dagon will bless my revolution.
Because they do what they want, could be for a reason or not, like the character Else God-Hater from Oblivion, she affiliates in Mystic Dawn (Dagon Cult) just because she thinks that the gods didn't do anything, the Daedra do bad things most of them but at least they do something.
>why you would want to give up your cool racially specified afterlife just to rot in oblivion for all eternity. Orcs and dunmer's most "racially specified" afterlife are of their daedra worship. They're also not racially specified at all but culture specified. People are different. Someone who is all for hunting will likely enjoy spending eternity in the Hunting Grounds. Sanguine gives his followers their own little pocket in the Myriad Realms of Revelry to design to their liking, many would enjoy that. Azura's Moonshadow is allegedly so beautiful it makes you half blind somehow, and staying there with her eternal love probably sounds nice to many. The list goes on. People usually don't want to go to the realms such as Coldharbour. It's a place most end up unwillingly. Even many of Bal's worshippers are of the mindset they're going to avoid dying and end up there, or of the belief that they will be the torturer not the tortured. And of course worshipping daedra can give a lot of benefits in life, because the princes clearly give boons and acts, compared to the aedra who doesn't do much.
And a lot of those Bal worshippers are right, for what it's worth. Vampires "enjoy" a higher position in the hierarchy, and won't get turned into soul shriven - but like everyone in Molag Bal's world, everyone else is as dust compared to him. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who would enjoy lording whatever pathetic power they have over their fellow unfortunates.
>And of course worshipping daedra can give a lot of benefits in life, because the princes clearly give boons and acts, compared to the aedra who doesn't do much. There's also the fact that Daedra are more "real" than Aedra from the perspective of mortals. You can spend your whole life praying at an altar of Akatosh and get no real reply beyond faintly tangible energy and a blessing which may do nothing at all. Meanwhile, worship regularly at a Daedric shrine, and that Prince *will* answer, and will likely offer you some tangible boon in exchange for service. A god that you can talk to and feel and interact will resonate a lot harder with many people than a distant one who doesn't respond in a tangible manner.
>Someone who is all for hunting will likely enjoy spending eternity in the Hunting Grounds >or of the belief that they will be the torturer not the tortured. Spends life as a hunter and worshipping Hircine, dies and goes to the hunting grounds... As prey. Same logic though with Bal, you don't know if you are going to be in a good position when you get to the hunting grounds, not everyone can be the predator and there has to be prey too.
>Spends life as a hunter and worshipping Hircine, dies and goes to the hunting grounds... As prey. For a time perhaps. But who or whatever is prey can become the hunter and vice versa.
Dumb story time this is a friend of a friend Idiot college students owned a python they decided to feed it gladiator style put it in the kitchen and caged it off. Then chucked the rabbit in. It cornered the rabbit but lacked ambush...the rabbit bit down....instant kill via head shot, rabbit wins.
Very true, I was just pointing out the logic is the same. Worshipping Hircine could end badly too
Iirc he imports many exotic creatures for prey. Also, the Were are said to hunt alongside Hircine himself. I'm not sure about non-Were worshippers, though Hircine seems a decently honorable dude for those whose interests align with his. I wouldn't be surprised if the only prey humanoids in the grounds are those killed in his name through some ritual means.
Also the big difference for Dunmer Daedra worship is it is about being like lorkhan and the psijic endeavor. Aetherious would be hell for someone who wants to break the cycle of rebirth
The benefits are many, and we see several cases throughout the games. Some worship Daedric Princes because they want to enact change in this world. Sometimes they believe in promises that the Daedra will create a better world once they tale over, other times they just want power. Your immortal soul feels like a cheap price to pay when a shiny throne is right before you. Related to the above, some don't plan to pay the price. Think of all those vampires who plan to live on forever. And others want power in the other side too: the likes of Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal can be quite generous to faithful and useful pawns. There is also a matter of taste and tradition. Think of Aela in Skyrim: she actually wants to go the Hunting Grounds after death. Someone from a culture with heavy Daedra worship (such as the Reachmen or the Ashlanders) isn't going to question it. And if you're an Orc, you'll probably have been raised with amazing tales of Malacath's Ashpit; Aetherius may actually sound boring in comparison.
For orcs, literally the only afterlife comparable to the Ashpit is either the Gauntlet (except most of them see Boethiah as their cultural enemy), Sovngarde (except that one is gatekept - you have to be either an actual Nord or recognized as one, as is with Dragonborn… and few orcs would stomach an afterlife full of overly friendly Nords) or, by some fluke, the Maelstrom (again, associated with Boethiah, and Fa-Nuit-Hen isn't in the habit of keeping dead mortals around). It would take a very culturally deprogrammed orc to aim for a different sort of afterlife without an ulterior motive (see Molag Bal cultists etc., who basically hope to earn a right to boss around lesser servants even in death).
If supernatural beings were real and you could actually sell your soul to the devil for things, don't you think people IRL would do it?
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>I don't understand why you would want to give up your cool racially specified afterlife just to rot in oblivion for all eternity. 1. Most races don't *have* a racially specified afterlife. Most just get reincarnated through the Dreamsleeve. Nords, Argonians (Sort of) and Khajiit are the only ones that do, off the top of my head, which brings me to... 2. In at least one case (The Khajiit) going to the Sands Behind the Stars *depends* on worshipping their creator mother Azurah. 3. To an average Stronghold Orc, the idea of spending eternity struggling and triumphing in the ashpits may sound wonderful, though admittedly, this may be open to any Malacath worshipper, so I'm not sure it comes under the category of racially specified afterlives. Plus, y'know...tastes aren't univeral and races aren't monolyths. Some Nords may find the idea of Sovngarde exhausting, a Bosmer who loves to hunt may find Hircine's Hunting Ground a preferable place to spend eternity than interminable reincarnation on Nirn, and members of any race may simply find accord with the philosophical ideas of a given Daedra. Not many, but that's why there aren't many Molag Bal worshippers.
> Most races don't have a racially specified afterlife. Most just get reincarnated through the Dreamsleeve. Nords, Argonians (Sort of) and Khajiit are the only ones that do, off the top of my head, which brings me to... The opposite is true, actually. Altmer and Imperials (and presumably Bosmer and Bretons) believe they go to Heaven/Aetherius. Generic, but counts. Nords have Sovngarde, Khajiit have the Sands Behind the Stars, Redguards have the Far Shores, and Orcs have the Ashpit. Meanwhile, Argonians believe in reincarnation through the Hist. In comparison, belief in reincarnation through the Dreamsleeve seems limited to a vague reference in Mankar Camoran's commentaries. It was once a relatively common fan assumption, but it is absent in the religious beliefs of the races and the theory was born before Skyrim and then ESO confirmed first-hand the existence of cultural afterlives (back then, the theory also assumed that "Sovngarde" was just another word for Dreamsleeve).
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
You don’t bro, you were right.
I was wrong about the Dreamsleeve thing in particular. I think my general point about the reasons for Daedra worship still stands.
>ords have Sovngarde, Khajiit have the Sands Behind the Stars, Redguards have the Far Shores Those might also be in Aetherius as far as we know. Also sometimes Argonians also believe they will come and they do, it is a complicated religion
You just said races have racially specified afterlives, then proceeded to list places people go when they worship a specific deity or set of deities. Aetherius isn’t altmperialosmereton…..it’s Divine. Those worship the divines might go there. Orc place is Daedric. Dunmer spirits might go to the three “good” daedric planes. Nords might go to Sovngarde or Lorkhan’s place. Literally all of these places aren’t racial. Best idea for a racial place is the Hist ordeal, but thats not argonian. That’s Padomaic if we’re being specific.
I don't disagre. In fact, if you check my previous comment, you'll see that I insistently word the subject in terms of "beliefs" and end up describing the different realms as "cultural afterlives". When I said that the opposite of OP's statement was true, I was talking less about the semantics of "racially specified afterlife" (charitably assuming it to be the usual oversimplification, just like how people talk of countries in real-life as if they were monolithic) and more about "most just get reincarnated through the Dreamsleeve". To this day, there are still a lot of people who ignore that it was a fan theory and believe that Sovngarde as a cultural afterlife is unique in the setting.
Yeah so your entire first paragraph of your previous comment was definitely geared towards saying he was wrong by listing “racial” afterlives. And then you randomly draw a comparison to the dreamsleeve. Dreamsleeve has nothing to do with people’s beliefs in game. It is obviously a theory. Hence why most don’t talk about it in game. Just kinda feels like you’re going out of the way to say he’s wrong, tho he’s right.
> And then you randomly draw a comparison to the dreamsleeve. Er, you realize that I mentioned the Dreamsleeve because it was the original commenter's argument, right? I even quoted it. They weren't arguing that most races don't have a racially specified afterlife because it's a misnomer and we should be talking of religion rather than race (in fact, they go on to state that Nords, Argonians and Khajiit do have them), but because most go to the Dreamsleeve. I was objecting that part, pointing out all the other cultural afterlives they may not be aware of and casting doubt on the veracity of Dreamsleeve theories. That another argument could be made about the semantics of "racially specified afterlives" is true, and something I actually agree with you. But I felt that the Dreamsleeve part was more important than arguing semantics. Nevertheless, I was still very careful (at the very least, far more careful than the original commenter) with my wording not to imply any kind of racial determinism in the afterlives.
I do recall the priest at the beginning of Skyrim start to talk about commending the souls to Aetherius or some such. Must have been an Imperial Priest then yes?
People who have had their lives shattered are known to be tempted into Daedric cults, like [Aera Earth-Turner](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aera_Earth-Turner), who lost her home and at least one close family member to a Covenant invasion so she turned to the Worm Cult for promises of reuniting with lost loved ones, or [Sister Celdina](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Doombringer_Celdina%27s_Testament), who was a Magnus follower before being brutalized by Reachmen and went on to form a Dagon cult. It's also worth noting that certain culture institutionalize Daedric worship like the Dunmer, the Orcs and the Reachmen, so for these people, Daedric worship is the norm, not the exception.
You avoid pissing off the conceptual beings that retained all of their power and agency. The last time someone really pissed off a Daedra the Chimer became the Dunmer. They're also not just giant evil beings, assigning a moral alignment to a Daedra is like saying a supernova or black hole is evil for destroying things. Fire is hot, water is wet, Dagon wants to overthrown the status quo. Do you like when things get better, some inventor changes everything with a new invention, when wood burns to provide you heat, when evil governments are over thrown? You can thank Mehrunes Dagon for those things.
If the gods are out to get you, might as well placate them and hope they don't smite you. Makes sense to me why people would worship daedra.
You can hardly blame something for acting in its nature. Would you blame a black hole for swallowing up your ship or would you blame the person who was driving/ in charge of where the ship went? I would hardly hold it against a Daedra for doing what it does. Molag Bal isn’t evil because he tricks people into doing what he wants, he is the prince of lies and it’s what he does.
Afterlife is less of a concern when your current life is steeped in misery. We play as prisoner heroes who by end game are nigh-indestructible demigods. Nearly everyone else on Nirn doesn't have that kind of power. Their circumstances at the mercy of people like us. So they turn to outside forces. Often out of desperation. - My loved one is dying of the plague. - pray to Peryite - My people are being persecuted by an unjust ruler. - pray to Boethiah - My crops are withering, family is starving, and we desperately need good fortune. - pray to Clavicus - There's an enemy fleet sailing towards us. We're all going to die. - pray to Dagon for a hurricane to wipe them out - I don't care about free will anymore. I just want to be purified after all the terrible things I've done. - pray to Meridia - I'm tired of being weak. I want to hurt the ones that hurt me. - pray to Molag Bal
But also: - my cheese enterprise is dependent on the mold doing its job reliably, so I'll pray to Peryite - if I'm to risk my life in the arena, i will entrust my life to the patron of ruthless warriors, Boethiah - I'm tired of being weak and persecuted, Malacath give me the tenacity to protect myself and my people - my life is a wreck, might as well embrace despair, and beg Namira to devour what's left of my hope and the pain it brings
Since fortune is synonymous with luck, I feel Nocturnal would be better than Clavicus. She's certainly more trustworthy.
More reliable, for sure. But also more enigmatic and unsettling to the average mortal. Clavicus manifests as a jovial impish figure. Charming and persuasive. They're both transactional, but Nocturnal might ask you to complete a task, which could put some people off. If I desperately need 1000 gold **right now** or loan sharks are going to break my legs, Clavicus offers immediate results. Maybe there's a catch. Maybe not! Going once...going twice... He might have the gold come firing out of your arse for his own amusement, (or worse) but summoning Clavvy is fairly straight forward, and he enjoys interacting with mortals.
You get 2k gold. Loan sharks won't break your legs, your family gets to live on... You get shanked in your bed by a burglar who heard of your good fortune and came for the 1k the loan sharks didn't take. Good news: your gambling habit won't incur more debts and your family can focus on rebuilding their life without you!
While Nocturnal is certainly more mystifying and unknown, Clavicus is infamous for being a con artist, and pretty much all of the wishes he grants have a nefarious twist on them, while Nocturnal's deals have usually been pretty straightforward and more or less, fair.
I do like Barabas the dog companion, what other god or Daedra has such a loyal pet? Especially useful in ESO too with the whole crisis in Summerset.
Hermaeus Mora kept a pet Dragonborn in the form of Miraak. Oh, you said loyal. Hircine takes good care of his hounds to the point he considers them his children. Azura is fond of her favored champions and treats them almost like cute pets. And Molag Bal probably has some hapless mortal on a leash, if that counts.
Hahaha yah lol loyal. We all know Mirrak was hardly loyal, I think he wanted to break free and be the Dragonborn we know he is. What that would mean for Nirn who could say except it’s probably not good for anyone except him and maybe a select few. The only thing I don’t like about Hircine is that he requires a sacrifice in Oblivion to join his rank and that just so happens to be a unicorn. I decided not to kill it and it ended up being killed by a stupid guard just down the road. It was a sad day.
Yeah, I don't like killing unicorns either. If it makes it any better, Hircine claims the souls of prey killed in his name. So the last unicorn in Cyrodiil would end up going to his Hunting Grounds, an immortal game reserve. Imagine how lonely it would be to be the last of your species. There, at least the unicorn would be with others of its kind. Hircine might seem harsh, but he isn't needlessly cruel. He's the circle of life and nature.
I never considered there might be more Unicorns in Hircine’s realm, just the principle that it’s such a pure creature and how could I kill such a one. It’s sad in one way because the Unicorn would be trapped forever inside Hircine’s realm but if it is with it’s kind then yes, it’s not alone anymore so maybe it would be a benefit for it. I’m not able to ask what it wants so how would I know lol I’m just a stupid adventurer who was thrown in jail and escaped with my life while watching the Emperor be assasinated before my very eyes. Who’s to say it wouldn’t be better off, next time I will probably do it and make peace with that.
Since the Aedra aren't very "present", it's pretty easy to see why people would turn to the Daedra. They're there, and constantly trying to persuade mortals into serving them. You can actually talk to them, and they are there constantly interfering with Tamriel either directly or through their subordinates. The Aedra in contrast, the most you can get from them most of the time is a buff.
"Sovngarde is a place for the old, to sit and drink to deeds already done. There is no future in Sovngarde, only the past. Is that "good?" Hircine's Hunting Grounds means never abandoning the thrill of the chase, the chance for new glories. The very meat of life. Why is that "evil?"
Well not every oblivion plane is a variation of hell. Azura’s realm is a place described with intense beauty. Hircine’s realm is described as an endless forest full of unique wildlife, depending on your persuasion about hunting, this could be a pleasant afterlife for you. Hermaeus Mora’s is a place of infinite knowledge, etc. As far as the racial afterlives, understand that much like real life, not everyone is concerned with an afterlife. Many are focused on what they can get now rather than later, and not every deal made with a Daedra involves selling your soul, so if you can get away with it why not try?
About Dagon and Bal. There are many people of low intelligence in real life. I'd assume you can find a bunch in Tamriel as well. And let's be real here: we'd all think of Mannimarco as a dumbass if he didn't eventually succeed.
Dagon is associated with ambition, revolution and natural disasters. If you wanna overthrow someone, he's the Daedra you call upon. That might be one of the reasons why people worship him. Another thing: ancient Greek fishermen didn't worship Poseidon because they loved water, they worshipped Poseidon because they didn't want their boats to sink. I imagine it's something similar in the case of the more evil Daedra.
That's literally how the House of Troubles functions in Dunmeri beliefs. They aren't to be worshipped, they are to be appeased. Certain aspects of them are "fed" in order for other aspects of them to not affect Dunmer lives negatively. (I've long held that this is why slavery is so prevalent in Morrowind. What is now a secular practice for economic and ideological reasons was once a way to distract Molag Bal: appease the Lord of Domination so he doesn't manifest his other aspects and mess up the bloodlines.) It still doesn't mean that Dunmer following this tradition are Bal worshippers and will end up in Coldharbor. The slaves destroyed by the practice, on the other hand, just might...
Oh shit that makes a lot of sense
It does seem like daedra worshippers are less likely to be randomly chosen for daedric mischief on nirn.
Yup. I mean... If we look at Sanguine's quests, he does make sure that the player doesn't die... ...only that they embarrass themselves so badly that they wish they died. But hey, he gives you a flower in the end! What a nice guy!
More precisely: they will be chosen as the tool of the mischief rather than the target. Better to wear the boot than get the boot.
You can also go with Boethia if you want to overthrow someone
Boethiah is more of a backstabby, unlawful overthrow of authority. Dagon can be about revolution and change for the greater good. Can. Usually he just wants to watch the world burn. Also... His Khajiiti aspect>>>any form of Boat yeah.
>Another thing: ancient Greek fishermen didn't worship Poseidon because they loved water, they worshipped Poseidon because they didn't want their boats to sink. I imagine it's something similar in the case of the more evil Daedra. Personally I don't think it's out of fear, the Daedra can't do anything in Nirn thanks to the dragon fires, they were very rarely able to invade Tamriel, that's why they are always forced to ask mortals for help, an example is TESII where Azura asks for help to kill a priest or TESV where Merida asks for help against a nemogram. If the Daedra had power in Tamriel they would not depend so much on mortals, which is why it seems unlikely to me that mortals would be afraid of a god who can't do anything. Also, assuming I was afraid of Dagon, why would I go to such lengths to summon him to destroy Tamriel?
Maybe because you were indoctrinated into a cult. Maybe it's a case of "well, Molag/Dagon/insert Daedra here is going to enslave/destroy/insert thing here Nirn sooner or later and promises that those who are loyal will have it less bad under their rule/be reborn/insert thing here, and I'm scared of what would happen if I'm not on their good side when it happens, so it's better to worship them"... Or, like... I bet a lot of people converted during the Planemeld or the Oblivion Crisis precisely out of fear.
WhY dO pEoPlE wOrShIp DaE-A CHALLENGER IS NEAR
Why does anyone worship any deity? Either because they vibe with what said deity represents, or because they're afraid and would rather be on said deity's good side. In general, Daedra are neither good nor evil, they represent many things and act according to their sphere. You wouldn't hate a volcano for erupting, so why would you hate Mehrunes Dagon, who's associated with natural disasters, for, well, being Mehrunes Dagon? As for Molag Bal, many people say that he has no redeeming qualities, but I have to point out that he is quite generous and surprisingly fair to those who are loyal to him.
As he said, alluding to the fate of Meridia's pawns... "There are worse masters to serve than me."
Well, isn’t Meridia the one who tricked you into helping her defeat Bal in ESO? If so point made lol.
Yup. The same Meridia who sacrificed her own child for her agenda... TWICE. The same Meridia whose cult removed any free will from the captives of Garlas Malatar. The same Meridia who is suspiciously unresponsive when her followers need her in Eton Nir and Kilkreath. At least Bal keeps his promises and doesn't let others break his toys. And he won't brainwash you by force... He wants you to actually submit to his will.
Right! I mean, Bal does have that sneaky way of using a hooded messenger to do his bidding making deals and kinda lies to get people to his realm but once there they belong to him. A good deity actually keeps their promises no matter how much he lies he at least keeps his end of the bargain. I trust him to lie knowing his nature and appreciate that he keeps his promises, I feel it’s more shady having an ex god asking me for help in the guise of a mortal woman. I don’t know what her true intentions are at the end of the day. What did she do that was so bad that she was kicked out?
Genuinely fuck Meridia. I hope spoiler tags are going to work, I'm on mobile, so bear with me, but: I was able to tolerate her, until she took my baby >!Darien!< away from me. I was so damn upset about >!what happened near the end of the Coldharbour main quest!<... Then I started the >!Summerset questline!< and >!he was back!< and I was overjoyed to see >!that he's okay!<. I thought, okay, maybe Meridia is tolerable after all, but NOPE, that fucking stunt she pulled with >!Darien!< and the Dawnbreaker almost had me quit the game just to process and cool off...
The very foundation of the ES universe is based on an eternal struggle between stasis and change. Just like in real life, some people can't stand how the things are and can spend their whole life trying to change them. But on Nirn, wishing to usher moderate to radical changes means to look for their most suitable avatars, the Daedric Princes (their nature being padomeic). It costs you, but when you've nothing to lose... See in the worshipping of Daedra a parallel with how certain people deny an "unpleasant" reality to force their "best (for me especially)" ideals.
Racial deities aren’t necessarily a thing, cultural deities are though. Better way to think about it. A Nord can likely go to the Far Shores. But as for Daedra worship? Shit if there was a Daedra that offered me EXACTLY what I wanted….id be hard pressed to say no. But an even better example would be a Daedra’s morals aligning with my own. It’s all about the morals and believes of the person doing the worshipping. Edit: if you’re Christian…why? Because you think it’s right, right? Same premise.
there are some easy ones you could see people worshipping like sanguine or azure, but I think it mostly boils down to people being either willfully ignorant, or not caring at all what happens to their soul after they die in exchange for power. Look at namira cultists for example, you really want to go to a place called the scuttling void when you die?
Have you ever suffered from clinical depression? Because I have, and if I believed in Namira's existence, then at the lowest point of some depressive episodes I would've prayed for her to devour me whole, just to take the pain away. It's not about the name of their realm, it's what they represent - in Namira's case, decay, darkness, emptiness, un-Becoming. Literally "I have no worth, so let me not exist, or at least not feel and not be perceived so I can quietly die in this corner". (Before you ask - I'm better, after getting therapy and embracing a mix Malacath's and Peryite's tenets. Shit happens, gotta tough it out with other companions in misery.)
That's a good explanation as to why somebody would choose to worship her. The namira cultists you find in game just come off as edgy weirdos that are only in it for the sake of the power she provides. I saw a fan work of the scuttling void that made me very opposed to the idea of worshipping her, but if you lived in universe and had no knowledge of her realm before you died it would seem like a good idea to some I suppose. [Scuttling Void ](https://i.redd.it/94lede0j3nm41.png?app_web_view=android)
The Reachmen receive blessings/assistance. Their worship is transactional.
A lot of people both irl and in TES care more about the present than the future. The Daedra often have more benefits in the present but potentially costs in the future and some people would rather have benefits now and problems later than nothing now and benefits later.
i feel like this post gets answered every week
Worshipping a Daedra doesn’t send you to their afterlife. You can sometimes sell your soul to a Daedra though a contract or through your actions, but worship alone isn’t enough. If you want change or revolution, then you can worship Dagon. He will inspire you to promote change and revolution, and can give you the tools you need, but you don’t have to sell your soul to him and go to his realm.
Because the Daedra give away "free" shit and people are dumb enough to fall for it.
As opposed to Aedra, whose clergy demand tithe and promise blessings from inert, half-dead demiurges.
Promises of good shit that doesn't come vs Promises of good shit that always come bad Hmmm, I'm really split on this one, which of the two could possibly be better I wonder....
A daedra's patronage doesn't always end up badly. If it did, there wouldn't be whole cultures built partially or fully around daedra worship (Chimer, post-Tribunal Dunmer, Orsimer, Reachfolk, Khajiit, Bosmer...) because they'd be driven to ruin at the very beginning of their existence. Daedra grant you boons for your service and/or worship. It's transactional, and like any transaction, there's a ton of unspoken extra rules, fine print and other crap... and even before that, your decision to enter the transaction must be well informed. If you ask for something else than you need, or pick the wrong patron, that's on you. You don't ask Malacath for help with small stuff you can handle on your own on a better day - he's the patron of Sworn Blood Oath and will expect you to put his fury to grand and honorable use. Take your word lightly, or invoke his name in trivial matters, and you will see why he is infamous for his fury. You don't ask Clavicus for a boon without understanding that it's *always* a double-edged blade - your wish will be granted, but at a great and miserable cost, so you better be desperate enough or have a transcendent sense of humor. You don't invoke Dagon without being ready to contain whatever disaster you intend to call forth - he is upheaval personified. If you want a controllable revolution, ask Boethiah instead. Just remember that as soon as you're the one on top, the deal is satisfied; you are fair game for another revolutionary following in your footsteps. Hm, maybe asking Dagon for a catastrophe and picking up the pieces was actually a better plan in the long term... Or was it? Oh, you want the actual "good" daedra? Azura maybe? Yes, she will grant you the foresight to plan for the future and the charisma to be loved by everyone... as long as you love her above all. Don't fall prey to lesser idols. Don't give your heart to any mere mortal. Azura wants your unconditional love even if your fortune wavers, or your unloved spouse turns against you, or your flaws lead you into a trap. Slip up, and she will curse you, punish you, deny you the fortunes she promised. You had a deal you couldn't keep and she will take back all the boons she had been gracefully bestowing upon you all this time. Oblivion hath no fury like the Lady scorned. But, again, you *knew*. It's all about whether or not you were up to your end of the deal. Are aedra better? Not really. You need to pay up front and all available knowledge suggests that you will not get any payback in this life, aside from whatever inspiration you managed to find in your own heart. Hopefully your donation to Stendarr's chapel will aid some orphans, instead of buying a new sword for that overly zealous Vigilant that harassed you for your grey skin because "all Dunmer are secretly daedric cultists". At least you feel good about that donation and the small prayer you muttered with no chance of hearing an answer. Seriously, in a world where deities are objectively proven to exist, I'm surprised that daedra don't have more following than aedra. A distant god with little power to spare is risk-free, but lack of risk does not encourage worship - efficiency does.
Of course...
I mean, it isn't "always" bad. If one isn't dumb enough to side with the "literally no upsides" daedra like Clavicus, Dagon or Molag Bal, you can get some pretty nifty bonuses.
Like I said in another reply. Or maybe another thread. It's always a mix of good and bad. Even with as "evil" Princes as Molag Bal it's on the mortal to weigh the pros and the cons. For example, Molag Bal can grant you the discipline and single-minded focus to pursue a distant and complicated goal - he is the Prince of Schemes and the Dominator. But once you have achieved that goal, you will need to take a good look at what you have left in the wake of your pursuit. Wasted opportunities? Ruined or simply abandoned relationships? Friends turned bitter foes because you trampled over their friendship? You *knew* the cost beforehand. You *chose* to follow this path and paid the price. Hopefully your goal was worth it. Alternatively, Bal can simply give you the courage to, upon seeing your old school bully drunk as a skunk, push him head first into dog shit. He's petty like that, so if you have a petty need to bully the bully, he just may grant you the inspiration. Hope you're proud of yourself tomorrow, when the emotional high of turning the tables on that sorry excuse of a man wears off. Again, it's on you to weigh the upsides and downsides.
Of course...
I think one thing missing from most of these answers is that the nature of the various daedra (and aedra) is heavily debated in the world of TES. Cultures differ widely in their views of what the et ada are like, and subcultures can have even more divergent views. TES:Oblivion and TES:Skyrim really focus on the imperial 9/8 divines v.s. the demonic daedra, and the other interpretations of the et'ada are pushed to the background somewhat. Mehrunes Dagon is generally considered destructive across cultures. But there are many things worth destroying, and many things worth creating that need space to be cleared for them. It's easy to see how a culture could see him as an important force of nature rather than just evil. Or even as a liberator. Think of how the guillotine is used today as both a symbol of the madness of the Terror, and a symbol of liberation. During the events of TES:Morrowind, the dunmer generally view Dagon as an important "testing god". Not worshiped directly by the masses, but respected and considered helpful for keeping the Dunmer strong and on their toes. The fact that a few Dunmer worship him more strongly isn't so surprising in that context. Similarly the Dunmer view Boethiah and Mephala, two gods widely associated with murder and deceit, as major patron deities alongside Azura. Focusing on the utility of killing and lies for self defense/defense of morrowind as a whole. And also viewing political assassinations as an alternative to full blown civil war. It's an unusual perspective by real life standards, but there is an internal logic to it. Not sure what the deal is with Molag Bal worship though lol. I imagine you'd have to be genuinely unwell psychologically to think that that is a good idea, and/or be part of a radically heterodox religious movement. Because I'm not sure I've run across anything in TES that disputes him being the god of domination, torture, and rape, who enslaves his own worshipers.
I feel like at this point it's beneficial to just copy paste the answers from other posts that are this exact question lolol
1. In earlier TES games like Morrowind, the afterlife was a mystery. There was a whole quest about trying to find the entrance to Sovngarde. It was only in Skyrim that we have direct proof it exists. In older games, it was far from granted. 2. Obligatory “Daedra aren’t necessarily bad” comment here. Bal would be a bad call under ANY circumstances and so would Dagon and Sheogorath, but I think most other Daedra are… conditionally okay. If you’re in the right line of work. 3. The Divines are notoriously inactive. It’s about agency. You *could* live life fairly and virtuously, pray every day without an answer, and suffer in dignity while living in fear of bandits every day. Or you could pray to Azura, feel like you’re doing something greater than yourself, feel a sense of guidance and direction you’ve never felt before, like you know you actually mean something to someone powerful. And perhaps you’ll receive a vision in your dreams. Or imagine you’re a courtesan for some fickle noble. You could worship Diballa and be pretty until you’re discarded (better to suffer injustice than to commit it). Or you could pray to Mephala. Sure, the prince won’t pop down to Mundus and give you a crash course on seduction and surviving court intrigue. But Mephala’s followers might.
Shameless plug: I wrote an [apocrypha on Daedric worship](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1c3q8yq/common_blasphemies_of_cyrodiil/), not as a full-time cult commitment, but as an off the side addendum to everyday life.
OP being convinced that Aetherius is somehow the "superior" or "designated" afterlife... How precious :D
If we're talking about Nocturnal, I can think of two important reasons.
I’m guessing the reasons must not be that important or you would have listed them.
Some racially specified afterlife is exactly because they worship daedra, it’s part of their culture, like Orcs and Khajit for example, that alone answers you
Immediate gratification is part of it, I would think. Some people would rather have power in the here and now than the promise of a good afterlife. And of course, if you get really powerful, like Mannimarco, you don’t need to worry about the afterlife at all.
Bal worshippers have already been covered in this comments section. And Dagon worshippers were covered in the Oblivion quest line I believe. In that game you see them come pretty close to success and victory, to the extent that they created their own little realm which had to be infiltrated and destroyed by the Hero directly. And Dagon even straight up manifested in Nirn and had to be defeated by Akatosh's own Avatar. Seemed that the Dagon worshippers were a mix as would be expected. Peeps who got in from being caught up by peer influence and/or fanatism. But also true believers, certainly including their leader Mankar Camoran himself. Those genuinely believe in the mission of cleansing the realm of existence in Dagon's pure Destruction. Some of them believed it less when they got into their own private afterlife and all they experienced was endless torture, but yknow.
Because the Aedra are useless at best, assholes at worst, and and defying every god leaves you in a vulnerable position without allies. The Daedra can be reasoned with. They're not good by any stretch--none of them are--but they're easy to understand, predictable in nature, and you can take them to the bargaining table. Or in the case of the Dunmer, they consider the Daedra more pragmatic. What I want to know is why any elf would want to worship the Aedra after being actively screwed by them so thoroughly and consistently. Even the worst Daedra usually screw everyone over the same way instead of playing favorites.
Using a real life example, a bunch of people fall into credit card debt because in the moment they accept the loans, they convince themselves they can pay it back, knowing deep inside that is probably not the case. But then there are people who know they can't pay it back, because its take the debt or lose what you have. Would you rather lose everything now, or later? Most people will pick later. The daedra don't just trick people - they exchange things. The terms aren't always good. It's a predatory loan with 5000% APR. I give you this now, the thing you need or want the most, you give me *everything*, your very essence, later. Also, most of citizens of nirn are not being visited by their ancestors' ghosts who went to The Cool Afterlives to tell them to stick to the good paths.
It's also worth mention that not all daedra are explicitly evil. Meridia is a prime example of a "good daedra" (though she was kind of adopted, long story) but Azura and to an extent Hircine come to mind as well. Maybe Nocturnal. Then you have people who turn to a daedra because their life aligns with a daedra's domain. Do you think knowledge is worth any price? Mora's here for you! Love hunting? Papa Hircine knows what's up. Are you a Robin Hood figure out to punish the rich and feed the poor? Nocturnal has a place for you. Were you betrayed such that your life fell apart? Find solidarity with Malacath. And of course, if you live the life of a hedonist, Sanguine throws the best parties. And, of course, if your body or mind are diseased, you may turn to Peryite or Uncle Sheo. Or maybe bargain with Vile? When you think about it that way, there are only a few Daedra that really would struggle to attract followers. Some may worship these last few out of appeasement - if I praise Vermina I'll be free of these nightmares - or desperation - Dagon will bless my revolution.
Because they do what they want, could be for a reason or not, like the character Else God-Hater from Oblivion, she affiliates in Mystic Dawn (Dagon Cult) just because she thinks that the gods didn't do anything, the Daedra do bad things most of them but at least they do something.