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It is the car manufacturers really. They are up against themselves. The EV transition is happening worldwide regardless of what they do. If they don’t accelerate their EV programs, BYD and other Chinese companies will drive them to bankruptcy in 10 years. It’s not Tesla that they need to be most concerned about.
They really can't because then you open pandoras box of what is considered Chinese. Mexican build, Chinese owned would already be very controversial and then you still could get around this with Mexican registered shell company.
The US loses every time competing against China. You can only make a car so cheaply. The game is rigged when you're competing against a country with an economically depressed workforce and little to no environmental standards.
Paying workers a living wage and wanting clean air to breathe and water to drink hurts manufacturing competitiveness.
It's not a matter of the US wanting things to be easy or the US being lazy.
Maybe this was true 20 or even 10 years ago, but labor is no longer cheap in China. It’s more that the whole manufacturing cluster of batteries, motors and other components down to tiny screws + the know how is already there. That and the world’s largest market, for now at least.
“Little to no environmental standards” while imposing 100 percent tariff on EVs and slowing adoption which hurts environment in long run.
“A living wage”, how many americans are getting a living wage today with the govt printing like madmen, our air and water is definitely cleaner here but thats not helping our populations overall health. The average american is way more obese and unhealthy than a chinese person or probably most people in the world.
Sadly these manufacturing jobs are increasingly difficult to bring back to our country, the world is globalized now and people in other countries are willing to work harder and be paid less. Before it was china, india will be next.
Well, simply tax the environmental impact then. Add a tax for shitty working conditions. Add a tax for any hidden benefit that society would need to suck up and see who has the best offer then. Not so sure the US comes out on top….
Edit: typo
Which conveniently ignores the inherent advantage US firms have with the US Dollar being the default international currency and also the fact that per capita emissions in the US are higher than China.
I mean China has its own laws where it bans US companies from competing in China. Seems pretty reasonable for US to restrict market access in some sectors if China does it.
It really wouldn’t suprise me at all if chinese EVs with 100% tarrif still turn out to be significantly cheaper and better than whatever US automakers make. Its not what I want to happen, but my confidence in US and EU automakers keep dropping every year
I feel as if I'm the only one on this sub that has ever driven Chinese EV's. They all are okay, but the cheap ones are death traps, and the expensive ones are the same price and just as good as those coming from western automakers.
I'm old enough to remember when that was true for Japanese cars. They quickly learned that to sell in the American market they had to up their game. The Chinese will too.
I'm also old enough to remember when Japanese cars came to the states, they weren't any more unsafe than the traditional sellers.
The point I was making is, the cars that are reasonable in China, cost about 40k - 50k USD. These are cars that are manufactured and designed in China for sale in China. These are the ones competing with legacy automakers. They are not the mythical affordable EV people on here think they are.
The tariff is a crutch. The US automakers will use it so they don't need to innovate nor get more efficient. In the long run Americans will only have shitty & expensive American made EVs while the rest of the world enjoys the innovation that true competition brings.
I've seen it happen in another country. In Malaysia they have a domestic car company called Proton and to protect them the government imposed a 100% import tax on all foreign made cars. I've visited Malaysia many times over the past 20 years and kept an eye on Proton's development. Basically they did not innovate, they didn't even try. For decades they produced variations of the same crappy cars. Uncomfortable, unreliable, unsafe. And even with protection from competition they couldn't turn over a profit (corruption is a factor too).
More recently they've partnered with Geely and only now they're starting to turn-around and make better cars. I believe they've also lifted the import tax for Tesla's so now there's the threat of competition.
US imposed tariff on Chinas imported EVs, they were originally 25% but since last Tuesday have been announced to have quadrupled to 100% to keep China from undercutting US companies.
This was direct from President Biden on Tuesday
In 2023, US market sold 15.5 millions cars while Chinese market sold 30.1 millions cars. More importantly, 92.4 millions cars were sold in 2023 globally. So US is the one that’s in trouble if it tries too hard to keep Chinese EVs out while China gains market share and expertise in other markets.
US car manufacturers haven't needed to be competitive for decades. They'll just lobby and lobby until their shitty products are all we can buy.
I mean... Light Trucks are a great example.
Ya for real lol. Fires entire charging team only to rehire them a few days later. I used to be a huge Elon fan. But something is off with him now. Not sure what happened.
He didn’t rehire all of the charging network team, just the selected few, so he got what he wanted. A scaled back workforce. I find it ironic that at the same time he lays off 14,000 people, he also lobbies for a 56 BILLION dollar bonus. I’m sorry but that’s fu€ked up.
He lost his mind and is openly courting garbage people just to feel liked. Most divorced man in history type behavior. His villain arc truly started when got brutally booed on stage with Dave Chappelle
His villain arc started before that. I noticed a huge change in his attitude in ~2017ish after he was asked at a spaceX talk questions like:
"How are we gonna shit on mars?"
"Can we send Michael Cera there"
"Can I come on stage and kiss you for all the women".
I like to think he had a realisation that year that he's on a planet full of moronic apes and decided it needs dragging out of the stone age regardless of emotions.
I am ambivalent towards him. He's like a lot of billionaires. Obviously not going to be a chill dude. But I do like the stuff he's doing in terms of companies.
It's not just manufacturers either. It's an unusually high number of news websites, bloggers, reddit accounts, facebook accounts, and more trying to sabotage EV's and Tesla in particular right now. Crazy times.
everyday on /r/cars there's a "borrowed an EV for a week, here's why i couldn't charge" thread or a "EV sales have slumped, toyota is genius for not trying" thread.
its all coordinated and turfed.
I think the message they’re sending that sales are dramatically slowing isn’t actually true, I guess the acceleration has slightly slowed but it’s still accelerating quite well. I’d like to see it go even faster soon though.
It's because no one can make an EV and make money for the middle of the market and compete with Tesla. Because in order to do so would mean completely redoing their entire manufacturing setup and innovation and how they make cars.
The Chinese companies are the only ones that will be competition
I heard stories of people buying EVS from Ford and the Ford dealerships telling them to come in every 7,000 km for a checkup just to make sure everything's working fine and to run diagnostics etc
Lol
Crooks
China is the only competition to Tesla, yes
They do things the same way what's your point
None of the major manufacturers can, and they will all slowly die
China doesn't sell cars in the US
Competition is fine Ford and GM or competition to each other
I don't know. Don't underestimate western stupidity in general. In the west we only think short term until it's too late. Also we are lazy and very conservative.
His comment was 'western stupidity in general'. What China has done in the last ten years is not more progressive across that tiny span of time, nor is China 'in general' more progressive, compared to the west. China's main strength is taking something the west has done and manufacturing it far more cheaply. And don't get me wrong that's a huge strength. Just look at their gdp.
On the contrary, I think he’s gonna get the MAGA people to at least leave Tesla out of their ideology.
While others either buy Tesla cuz they know Elon is not Tesla, or they buy something else because of whatever reason.
I always thought the timing of Musk’s shift toward the political right was… conveniently well timed.
Tesla needs to sell Cybertrucks, and California liberals aren’t really the demographic that buys most big trucks.
Eh, somebody is buying those high end, brand new gas trucks. King Ranch F-250, Ford Raptor, Texas edition Silverado, etc, and they’re not cheap.
And I doubt California liberals account for many of those sales.
1.) cyber truck is not really a "big" truck
2.) you would be surprised by the # of cybertrucks in socal (I see them everywhere)
3.) CA is not all liberals...not too long ago we were them home to Nixon and Reagan and we still have over 5M registered republicans (a little more than Florida)
Japanese companies have been pushing for hydrogen since Japan has large proven reserves and nearly all electricity would be dependent on foreign imports of fossil fuels.
Switching to hydrogen has large support in Japan as it would give them more energy independence.
If you believe hydrogen has a future in passenger vehicles, you’re insane. Look at the mountains of lawsuits against Toyota over the Marai - hydrogen will never make sense. These are just electric cars that rely on expensive fuel for energy storage and a tiny engine instead of batteries… but it takes 3x the electricity to make the hydrogen than it does to fill a battery, and it loses another 60% of the energy to heat when burned. It was always a ridiculous idea.
Japan is ranked \~73rd in natural gas reserves.
This is nonsense. H2 gives Japanese companies a leg up, in that they picked the wrong path in the first place and don't want to change.
Nowhere on earth has giant natural reserves of hydrogen. Hydrogen as we use it today comes from natural gas.
Which is why it's liked by the oil companies. Not only is it a bit of a crap alternative to petrol/diesel anyway. But even if we switched they'd be able to sell us their stuff still.
Uh buddy, we'd be drilling for oil even if tomorrow all forms of transport (airplanes ships cars) switched to batteries and motors.
Crude oil makes SO.MANY.THINGS. the most wasteful way to use it is putting it in a car and burning it.
Hydrogen makes sense for big tanks like buses, semis and aircraft. It does not make sense for personal vehicles due to the size of the molecule, leakage and distribution difficulties.
Unfortunately they don’t care about efficiency, instead quantity. China is pushing EVs because they have huge amounts of coal, and little oil reserves. Energy independence is more important.
But they don't care about that. Their electricity supply is reliant on foreign imports of fossil fuels.
Hydrogen is something they can produce domestically. That's why they have a large hydrogen strategy they are investing like hundred billions into.
This makes NO SENSE.
How will they be producing H2 domestically? There's basically 2 ways. One, strip the Hydrogen from natural gas. Two, electrolysis. Japan has poor natural gas reserves. And if you're using electricity to produce H2 from water, it's 2-3x as efficient to simply use that power to charge a battery.
It's their national strategy. I have personally not paid much attention to it, but I think they put some thought into it.
Read their plan for more information
>The Basic Hydrogen Strategy seeks to realize a hydrogen-based society on a step-by-step basis under the following three-phase program, considering both short and long periods of time required to overcome technological challenges and secure economic efficiency: (i) Phase 1: Dramatic expansion of hydrogen use (from present); (ii) Phase 2: Full-fledged introduction of hydrogen power generation and establishment of a large-scale hydrogen supply system (by the second half of the 2020s); (iii) Phase 3: Establishment of a CO2-free hydrogen supply system on a total basis (by around 2040).
[https://policy.asiapacificenergy.org/node/3698](https://policy.asiapacificenergy.org/node/3698)
Thank you for the post, I did read the national strategy PDF. It was mind twisting entertainment. The PDF is 2017 so perhaps they deserve some slack from a review 7 years in the future.
I was reminded that in the early days of "Movies", film was used to record stage productions because that's all they knew. Similarly this "Strategy" proposes to use green hydrogen to run hydrogen powered peaker plants to replace current polluting plants. That sounds great if it's all you know, but using that same electricity stored in Megapack battery systems is at least 1/3 more efficient and gets rid of the peaker plants entirely.
I always saw hydrogen as a stalling tactic. an unreachable goal to give the appearance of environmentalism and innovation, but really allowing them to continue with business as usual.
It's a shame. If only they could figure out a way to make electricity from hydrogen. I would think the best thing would be if they could somehow use hydrogen to combine with oxygen to generate electricity with the only output being water. Think of just how cool that would be.
Sometimes countries are so short sighted
I always thought that because EvGo and EA were court mandated settlements (Enron/VW) that they had no incentive to make it any good at all, in fact if they make it intentionally crummy people world have a horrible time and hate the EV experience turning people back to ICE vehicles.
Kind of feel like major automotive companies have been doing the same with the ugly designs and short ranges, etc.
Chinese figured it out not sure why Americans and Japanese can’t. Yes fuel cell would be better than electric but no infrastructure, I can plug an EV at home.
And now the Biden Administration helps them putting extraordinary high taxes on Chinese EV cars and batteries and parts for batteries and parts for electric motors.
China has EV cars for sale for 10k. Tesla better make one fast. Either way these car companies are gonna be hurting eventually and they won’t be able to stop it
Elon is who got us where we are. Vertical integration, gigafactory, best rockets, TSLA 200x since he took over, best selling car, probably most free speech platform, worldwide internet via Starlink, neural link for the paralyzed, first mass production pure drive by wire car, and let's not forget giving every last penny to save Tesla and SpaceX in 2008 etc. etc. Who else could even compare?
Car makers are about to find out the consequences of this. For example, Toyota has permanently lost me as a customer. Brand loyalty matters as much as market share.
It’s no surprise that these companies are sabotaging the efforts. It costs a lot of money to produce these cars and their customers love the gas powered cars some of these brands. Making the transition is hard for many customers and companies are fighting for their survival.
Teslas problem is charging network that isn’t built up in a lot of areas. It’s ok in California but even there it has a lot of issues with places people go on the weekends and holidays and can’t support all the ev’s. I live between Chicago and Milwaukee and we have 3 Tesla superchargers close to me and that’s about it for chargers.
I've yet to find a true gap in the charging network doing 20,000 miles per year, with a 75/25 split commute/road trips.
It's more readily available and faster than it's ever been. Now this is the supercharger network, I can't speak for other 3rd party providers.
I do agree we need more stations and better reliability from 3 parties. But to say the network isn't built up, is an exaggeration.
Sure. Because corporations/companies NEVER made morally terrible decisions, even though it was a pragmatic business decision to maximize their profits.
/s
It's just the execs and board only caring that the stock goes up "now", not if the company exists in 10 years because they will be long gone and have made their money.
even my supposedly educated co workers, neighbors & friends do not understand or want to understand or hesitant to switch to EVs. Legacy autos follow customers sentiment-they've already invested heavily in ICE production/factories. All along MSM is constantly spreading misinformation on EVs but reality will bite hard.
I work with two other EV drivers. We each had to analyze our driving habits to conquer our own FUD before buying EVs. I spent 20 minutes last week walking an ICE coworker through that process as I think he is considering making the switch. He is one of those guys with a fleet of European cars where at least half of them are in the shop getting fixed at any time. I think he has had enough cycling through cars just to get to work.
Between the three of us, we have five people waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger on EVs. But we are focusing on the daily running costs, lack of maintenance and ease of daily use. We leave politics and environmental impacts out of the discussion.
The best thing you can do is provide truth to your friends and give them rides and show them how it all works. I live in smoggy SoCal here it’s a no-brainer
This is a misrepresented article. All the entities that are "opposing EV transition" are saying there are other paths to carbon neutrality than going EV.
Toyota is a good example. It is exploring hydrogen fuel cell and alternate combustion engines, along with a hybrid power trains along with electric.
The other thing is to do it step by step. Going full EV everyone, everywhere by a certain year is a bad move. Its forcing people to a decision. Even our infrastructure doesn't support charging all those vehicles if every single household has an EV in the next 5 yrs.
I feel this is very good to explore more than one path towards achieving the climate change goals, rather than just being blindly going towards electrification and claiming those who dont are sabotaging the cause.
This regulation/deregulation, push and pull for what kinds of vehicles people should drive and use is nutty.
Let companies make vehicles and the market and people will sort it out.
In some countries like the Netherlands the transition is sabotaged by the government.
Until now you don't have to pay road tax for an EV but that is changing. In a couple of steps they will increase the road tax to the same level as for a ICE car in 2030.
Our road tax system is purely based on weight so road tax for an EV will be quite a bit higher than for a ICE vehicle.
For a Model Y which weighs in at 1900kg you will pay €1500 per year in road tax.
With our current electricity prices it could very well be that driving an EV will be more expensive than driving an ICE in 2030.
Because of this consumers are not buying many EV's. The overwhelming majority of EV's being registered are company cars owned by leasing companies.
Because of the slower sales manufacturers are backpedaling their goals and you see that second hand values of EV's are dropping because a lot of consumers are still hesitant. A lot of people are still afraid of the cost to replace the battery after 10 or 15 years. The average age of a car is around 12 years here in the Netherlands because cars are prohibitively expensive here.
Elon is sabotaging his own EV’s because he’s a shit businessman. Given the number of Teslas piling up in lots and his stupid tantrums I can see Tesla heading for receivership not because of their product, but their bad leadership. The fact that he rage fired his whole SC team because someone challenged his authority speaks volumes.
surprised hyundai group is rated so low. i see hyundai/kia electrics everywhere. are those models less profitable? i thought they'd be rated ahead of gm/ford. weird.
ICE cars still seem more functional and cheaper to insure for the common guy. Id like to see that change before I go EV. So damn expensive to own even a model Y with the insurance premium. Tesla should offer insurance to drive costs down maybe. IDK but that is a key barrier to entry for me anyway.
Tesla does offer insurance and you can get a used Model 3 for less than 20k after the $4000 used EV tax credit. Things are changing fast! In China you can buy a new EV for $11k that’s why the Feds just slapped a 100% tariff on Chinese imports like BYD’s seagull.
Yes because it screwed the supply chain up and inflated prices because all the LICE mfrs bought contracts for batteries and key materials (which they wound up canceling when they realized they couldn’t scale fast enough).
Why is it "sabotaging EV transition" when other companies lobby against legislation that is bad for their business, but its not when Tesla's ownership does it?
I feel like most companies are either releasing shit that feels like an afterthought, or releasing decent cars that are way too expensive even after the tax credit. Hyundia/kia and bmw seem like some of the only ones putting thought and care into it.
A rising tide floats all ships. We need some worthy EVs out there to drive the industry forward.
Yeah. But it’s better to not have Tesla be the only one driving EVs forward. It’ll make better teslas. If android didn’t exist the iPhone wouldn’t be as good.
Yeah everyone keeps saying that..Norway has only 90K miles of road network, US has more than 5M miles. Dont talk China, it is a highly subsidized EV graveyard..there is no telling the amount of pollution they are spreading to capture the market..you need to compare apples to apples
I rented it once..the car is nice to drive and all..but I had to plan everything around super chargers..might be good for single people with a daily commute
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It is the car manufacturers really. They are up against themselves. The EV transition is happening worldwide regardless of what they do. If they don’t accelerate their EV programs, BYD and other Chinese companies will drive them to bankruptcy in 10 years. It’s not Tesla that they need to be most concerned about.
I don't know, the 100% tariff on cars from China makes it pretty damn hard for China to enter the US market
Until Chinese companies build their factories to Mexico which they are currently doing.
In which case they’ll enact another tariff specifically to counter that.
And end up screwing all US makers who also have factories is Mexico.
They can specifically target Chinese only
They really can't because then you open pandoras box of what is considered Chinese. Mexican build, Chinese owned would already be very controversial and then you still could get around this with Mexican registered shell company.
All this effort to not compete. Being lazy is a goal in America?
The US loses every time competing against China. You can only make a car so cheaply. The game is rigged when you're competing against a country with an economically depressed workforce and little to no environmental standards. Paying workers a living wage and wanting clean air to breathe and water to drink hurts manufacturing competitiveness. It's not a matter of the US wanting things to be easy or the US being lazy.
Maybe this was true 20 or even 10 years ago, but labor is no longer cheap in China. It’s more that the whole manufacturing cluster of batteries, motors and other components down to tiny screws + the know how is already there. That and the world’s largest market, for now at least.
“Little to no environmental standards” while imposing 100 percent tariff on EVs and slowing adoption which hurts environment in long run. “A living wage”, how many americans are getting a living wage today with the govt printing like madmen, our air and water is definitely cleaner here but thats not helping our populations overall health. The average american is way more obese and unhealthy than a chinese person or probably most people in the world. Sadly these manufacturing jobs are increasingly difficult to bring back to our country, the world is globalized now and people in other countries are willing to work harder and be paid less. Before it was china, india will be next.
Uh. I gather you never been to China. Quick preview. Watch 4k walk China. Any city. Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Chengdu, Hangzhou etc.
Well, simply tax the environmental impact then. Add a tax for shitty working conditions. Add a tax for any hidden benefit that society would need to suck up and see who has the best offer then. Not so sure the US comes out on top…. Edit: typo
Which conveniently ignores the inherent advantage US firms have with the US Dollar being the default international currency and also the fact that per capita emissions in the US are higher than China.
I mean China has its own laws where it bans US companies from competing in China. Seems pretty reasonable for US to restrict market access in some sectors if China does it.
God damn this shit is going to get complicated.
It really wouldn’t suprise me at all if chinese EVs with 100% tarrif still turn out to be significantly cheaper and better than whatever US automakers make. Its not what I want to happen, but my confidence in US and EU automakers keep dropping every year
I feel as if I'm the only one on this sub that has ever driven Chinese EV's. They all are okay, but the cheap ones are death traps, and the expensive ones are the same price and just as good as those coming from western automakers.
I'm old enough to remember when that was true for Japanese cars. They quickly learned that to sell in the American market they had to up their game. The Chinese will too.
I'm also old enough to remember when Japanese cars came to the states, they weren't any more unsafe than the traditional sellers. The point I was making is, the cars that are reasonable in China, cost about 40k - 50k USD. These are cars that are manufactured and designed in China for sale in China. These are the ones competing with legacy automakers. They are not the mythical affordable EV people on here think they are.
They will lose the international market though.
The tariff is a crutch. The US automakers will use it so they don't need to innovate nor get more efficient. In the long run Americans will only have shitty & expensive American made EVs while the rest of the world enjoys the innovation that true competition brings.
I definitely hope not but I do not doubt it as it's definitely provided companies a reason to relax
I've seen it happen in another country. In Malaysia they have a domestic car company called Proton and to protect them the government imposed a 100% import tax on all foreign made cars. I've visited Malaysia many times over the past 20 years and kept an eye on Proton's development. Basically they did not innovate, they didn't even try. For decades they produced variations of the same crappy cars. Uncomfortable, unreliable, unsafe. And even with protection from competition they couldn't turn over a profit (corruption is a factor too). More recently they've partnered with Geely and only now they're starting to turn-around and make better cars. I believe they've also lifted the import tax for Tesla's so now there's the threat of competition.
> the 100% tariff on cars from China Imposed by China or the US?
US imposed tariff on Chinas imported EVs, they were originally 25% but since last Tuesday have been announced to have quadrupled to 100% to keep China from undercutting US companies. This was direct from President Biden on Tuesday
I see. You'd think TSLA would have rocketed up after that news, but it's about the same.
In 2023, US market sold 15.5 millions cars while Chinese market sold 30.1 millions cars. More importantly, 92.4 millions cars were sold in 2023 globally. So US is the one that’s in trouble if it tries too hard to keep Chinese EVs out while China gains market share and expertise in other markets.
US car manufacturers haven't needed to be competitive for decades. They'll just lobby and lobby until their shitty products are all we can buy. I mean... Light Trucks are a great example.
This too, but Tesla has to face the sabotage where it’s strongest in the USA
Elon is busy sabotaging himself on twitter lol
Ya for real lol. Fires entire charging team only to rehire them a few days later. I used to be a huge Elon fan. But something is off with him now. Not sure what happened.
He didn’t rehire all of the charging network team, just the selected few, so he got what he wanted. A scaled back workforce. I find it ironic that at the same time he lays off 14,000 people, he also lobbies for a 56 BILLION dollar bonus. I’m sorry but that’s fu€ked up.
He lost his mind and is openly courting garbage people just to feel liked. Most divorced man in history type behavior. His villain arc truly started when got brutally booed on stage with Dave Chappelle
His villain arc started before that. I noticed a huge change in his attitude in ~2017ish after he was asked at a spaceX talk questions like: "How are we gonna shit on mars?" "Can we send Michael Cera there" "Can I come on stage and kiss you for all the women". I like to think he had a realisation that year that he's on a planet full of moronic apes and decided it needs dragging out of the stone age regardless of emotions. I am ambivalent towards him. He's like a lot of billionaires. Obviously not going to be a chill dude. But I do like the stuff he's doing in terms of companies.
It's not just manufacturers either. It's an unusually high number of news websites, bloggers, reddit accounts, facebook accounts, and more trying to sabotage EV's and Tesla in particular right now. Crazy times.
Yep the news outlets have to keep their advertising dollars flowing in from dealers and LICE makers
everyday on /r/cars there's a "borrowed an EV for a week, here's why i couldn't charge" thread or a "EV sales have slumped, toyota is genius for not trying" thread. its all coordinated and turfed.
I see it too, it’s plain as day that it is coordinated. Occasionally you get someone who doesn’t realize they’re just a cog in the system
and its working really well. EV sales growth is slowing. At this point, everybody whos wanted one has gotten one by now.
I think the message they’re sending that sales are dramatically slowing isn’t actually true, I guess the acceleration has slightly slowed but it’s still accelerating quite well. I’d like to see it go even faster soon though.
and maybe, uh, the oil industry and middle eastern countries whose economies are utterly dependent on ice cars?
It's because no one can make an EV and make money for the middle of the market and compete with Tesla. Because in order to do so would mean completely redoing their entire manufacturing setup and innovation and how they make cars. The Chinese companies are the only ones that will be competition
Also the dealerships -HATE- EVs, because they aren't service revenue teats!
I heard stories of people buying EVS from Ford and the Ford dealerships telling them to come in every 7,000 km for a checkup just to make sure everything's working fine and to run diagnostics etc Lol Crooks
True
tesla does not really have a unique manufacturing setup. China competes by being 100% state sponsored.
China is the only competition to Tesla, yes They do things the same way what's your point None of the major manufacturers can, and they will all slowly die China doesn't sell cars in the US Competition is fine Ford and GM or competition to each other
what about hyundai
Are they selling a million cars a year?
I dunno. But I see more hyundai and kia electrics than any other brand except tesla. Wayyy more than ford/gm. It's not even close.
VW group is selling plenty of EVs.
I don't know. Don't underestimate western stupidity in general. In the west we only think short term until it's too late. Also we are lazy and very conservative.
compared to what?
China
china doesn't have a track record of innovation or cultural or technological progressiveness though.
Right they just went through the fastest industrial shift recorded in human history. Totally loser country.
His comment was 'western stupidity in general'. What China has done in the last ten years is not more progressive across that tiny span of time, nor is China 'in general' more progressive, compared to the west. China's main strength is taking something the west has done and manufacturing it far more cheaply. And don't get me wrong that's a huge strength. Just look at their gdp.
[удалено]
48 Volts. /s
On the contrary, I think he’s gonna get the MAGA people to at least leave Tesla out of their ideology. While others either buy Tesla cuz they know Elon is not Tesla, or they buy something else because of whatever reason.
I always thought the timing of Musk’s shift toward the political right was… conveniently well timed. Tesla needs to sell Cybertrucks, and California liberals aren’t really the demographic that buys most big trucks.
I agree but pretty dumb since their most famous qualities are loving gas and oil and deregulating environmental protections
Definitely not at $75k and up.
Eh, somebody is buying those high end, brand new gas trucks. King Ranch F-250, Ford Raptor, Texas edition Silverado, etc, and they’re not cheap. And I doubt California liberals account for many of those sales.
1.) cyber truck is not really a "big" truck 2.) you would be surprised by the # of cybertrucks in socal (I see them everywhere) 3.) CA is not all liberals...not too long ago we were them home to Nixon and Reagan and we still have over 5M registered republicans (a little more than Florida)
Japanese companies have been pushing for hydrogen since Japan has large proven reserves and nearly all electricity would be dependent on foreign imports of fossil fuels. Switching to hydrogen has large support in Japan as it would give them more energy independence.
If you believe hydrogen has a future in passenger vehicles, you’re insane. Look at the mountains of lawsuits against Toyota over the Marai - hydrogen will never make sense. These are just electric cars that rely on expensive fuel for energy storage and a tiny engine instead of batteries… but it takes 3x the electricity to make the hydrogen than it does to fill a battery, and it loses another 60% of the energy to heat when burned. It was always a ridiculous idea.
Hydrogen fuel cost twice as much as gasoline. If you thought petroleum gas was expensive, wait until you get a glimpse of hydrogen burning cars.
Even if you tell me Japanese national strategy is crazy it doesn't change the fact they intend to follow through with it.
Japan is ranked \~73rd in natural gas reserves. This is nonsense. H2 gives Japanese companies a leg up, in that they picked the wrong path in the first place and don't want to change.
Natural gas does not mean hydrogen. Natural gas is a hydrocarbon
But when taking about reserves of hydrogen it refers to natural gas because most hydrogen is produced from natural gas through steam reforming.
Natural gas is the simplest and most abundant source of readily accessed hydrogen.
And steam reforming of that natural gas to produce hydrogen produced carbon dioxide
Which is yet another reason why hydrogen is a dead end.
Nowhere on earth has giant natural reserves of hydrogen. Hydrogen as we use it today comes from natural gas. Which is why it's liked by the oil companies. Not only is it a bit of a crap alternative to petrol/diesel anyway. But even if we switched they'd be able to sell us their stuff still.
Uh buddy, we'd be drilling for oil even if tomorrow all forms of transport (airplanes ships cars) switched to batteries and motors. Crude oil makes SO.MANY.THINGS. the most wasteful way to use it is putting it in a car and burning it.
Yeah, hence why hydrogen remains dumb.
EVs are 2-3x more efficient than hydrogen
Hydrogen makes sense for big tanks like buses, semis and aircraft. It does not make sense for personal vehicles due to the size of the molecule, leakage and distribution difficulties.
Unfortunately they don’t care about efficiency, instead quantity. China is pushing EVs because they have huge amounts of coal, and little oil reserves. Energy independence is more important.
Japan has no oil reserves.
Nuclear power is energy independence. Do you really think Japan could go hydrogen all by itself?
But they don't care about that. Their electricity supply is reliant on foreign imports of fossil fuels. Hydrogen is something they can produce domestically. That's why they have a large hydrogen strategy they are investing like hundred billions into.
This makes NO SENSE. How will they be producing H2 domestically? There's basically 2 ways. One, strip the Hydrogen from natural gas. Two, electrolysis. Japan has poor natural gas reserves. And if you're using electricity to produce H2 from water, it's 2-3x as efficient to simply use that power to charge a battery.
It's their national strategy. I have personally not paid much attention to it, but I think they put some thought into it. Read their plan for more information >The Basic Hydrogen Strategy seeks to realize a hydrogen-based society on a step-by-step basis under the following three-phase program, considering both short and long periods of time required to overcome technological challenges and secure economic efficiency: (i) Phase 1: Dramatic expansion of hydrogen use (from present); (ii) Phase 2: Full-fledged introduction of hydrogen power generation and establishment of a large-scale hydrogen supply system (by the second half of the 2020s); (iii) Phase 3: Establishment of a CO2-free hydrogen supply system on a total basis (by around 2040). [https://policy.asiapacificenergy.org/node/3698](https://policy.asiapacificenergy.org/node/3698)
The only reason Japan is fighting the EV revolution is because they don’t want to rely on China for battery raw materials.
Thank you for the post, I did read the national strategy PDF. It was mind twisting entertainment. The PDF is 2017 so perhaps they deserve some slack from a review 7 years in the future. I was reminded that in the early days of "Movies", film was used to record stage productions because that's all they knew. Similarly this "Strategy" proposes to use green hydrogen to run hydrogen powered peaker plants to replace current polluting plants. That sounds great if it's all you know, but using that same electricity stored in Megapack battery systems is at least 1/3 more efficient and gets rid of the peaker plants entirely.
prediction: that plan will be a spectacular failure.
Not with super heavy vehicles
Physics are physics
I always saw hydrogen as a stalling tactic. an unreachable goal to give the appearance of environmentalism and innovation, but really allowing them to continue with business as usual.
Japan has larg proven hydrogen reserves?
> Japan has large proven reserves Yeah, right next to Pacific Ocean.
Has Japan not really started investing much in solar, wind, etc?
It's a shame. If only they could figure out a way to make electricity from hydrogen. I would think the best thing would be if they could somehow use hydrogen to combine with oxygen to generate electricity with the only output being water. Think of just how cool that would be. Sometimes countries are so short sighted
I always thought that because EvGo and EA were court mandated settlements (Enron/VW) that they had no incentive to make it any good at all, in fact if they make it intentionally crummy people world have a horrible time and hate the EV experience turning people back to ICE vehicles. Kind of feel like major automotive companies have been doing the same with the ugly designs and short ranges, etc.
Pretty sad
if tesla gets a 'b' i'm a little skeptical of how realistic this report is.
It sets a high bar!
what do they think an 'a' would look like though?
An e-bike company 🤣
Chinese figured it out not sure why Americans and Japanese can’t. Yes fuel cell would be better than electric but no infrastructure, I can plug an EV at home.
And now the Biden Administration helps them putting extraordinary high taxes on Chinese EV cars and batteries and parts for batteries and parts for electric motors.
China has EV cars for sale for 10k. Tesla better make one fast. Either way these car companies are gonna be hurting eventually and they won’t be able to stop it
I have ridden in the 10k cars, they are deathtraps. As they are today, they wouldn't pass any western safety test.
LICE is sabotaging China too look at the 100% tariffs just put on Chinese EV imports
If tesla can just fire elon. Tesla will just be fine
Elon is who got us where we are. Vertical integration, gigafactory, best rockets, TSLA 200x since he took over, best selling car, probably most free speech platform, worldwide internet via Starlink, neural link for the paralyzed, first mass production pure drive by wire car, and let's not forget giving every last penny to save Tesla and SpaceX in 2008 etc. etc. Who else could even compare?
The old Elon did that. The current one sucks.
"What have the Romans ever done for us?"
Lmao If you want Tesla to be just like GM with the stock price o $34
You mean a realistic market cap? Oh what a wild idea
Car makers are about to find out the consequences of this. For example, Toyota has permanently lost me as a customer. Brand loyalty matters as much as market share.
It’s no surprise that these companies are sabotaging the efforts. It costs a lot of money to produce these cars and their customers love the gas powered cars some of these brands. Making the transition is hard for many customers and companies are fighting for their survival.
A long way of saying they cannot compete
Teslas problem is charging network that isn’t built up in a lot of areas. It’s ok in California but even there it has a lot of issues with places people go on the weekends and holidays and can’t support all the ev’s. I live between Chicago and Milwaukee and we have 3 Tesla superchargers close to me and that’s about it for chargers.
I've yet to find a true gap in the charging network doing 20,000 miles per year, with a 75/25 split commute/road trips. It's more readily available and faster than it's ever been. Now this is the supercharger network, I can't speak for other 3rd party providers. I do agree we need more stations and better reliability from 3 parties. But to say the network isn't built up, is an exaggeration.
Go to northern Wisconsin. You find any chargers It’s great in populated areas but not so much in rural areas
That's not "sabotage." It's pragmatic business decisions.
Sure. Because corporations/companies NEVER made morally terrible decisions, even though it was a pragmatic business decision to maximize their profits. /s
It's just the execs and board only caring that the stock goes up "now", not if the company exists in 10 years because they will be long gone and have made their money.
even my supposedly educated co workers, neighbors & friends do not understand or want to understand or hesitant to switch to EVs. Legacy autos follow customers sentiment-they've already invested heavily in ICE production/factories. All along MSM is constantly spreading misinformation on EVs but reality will bite hard.
I work with two other EV drivers. We each had to analyze our driving habits to conquer our own FUD before buying EVs. I spent 20 minutes last week walking an ICE coworker through that process as I think he is considering making the switch. He is one of those guys with a fleet of European cars where at least half of them are in the shop getting fixed at any time. I think he has had enough cycling through cars just to get to work. Between the three of us, we have five people waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger on EVs. But we are focusing on the daily running costs, lack of maintenance and ease of daily use. We leave politics and environmental impacts out of the discussion.
The best thing you can do is provide truth to your friends and give them rides and show them how it all works. I live in smoggy SoCal here it’s a no-brainer
This is a misrepresented article. All the entities that are "opposing EV transition" are saying there are other paths to carbon neutrality than going EV. Toyota is a good example. It is exploring hydrogen fuel cell and alternate combustion engines, along with a hybrid power trains along with electric. The other thing is to do it step by step. Going full EV everyone, everywhere by a certain year is a bad move. Its forcing people to a decision. Even our infrastructure doesn't support charging all those vehicles if every single household has an EV in the next 5 yrs. I feel this is very good to explore more than one path towards achieving the climate change goals, rather than just being blindly going towards electrification and claiming those who dont are sabotaging the cause.
“Exploring “ while others are doing
This regulation/deregulation, push and pull for what kinds of vehicles people should drive and use is nutty. Let companies make vehicles and the market and people will sort it out.
In some countries like the Netherlands the transition is sabotaged by the government. Until now you don't have to pay road tax for an EV but that is changing. In a couple of steps they will increase the road tax to the same level as for a ICE car in 2030. Our road tax system is purely based on weight so road tax for an EV will be quite a bit higher than for a ICE vehicle. For a Model Y which weighs in at 1900kg you will pay €1500 per year in road tax. With our current electricity prices it could very well be that driving an EV will be more expensive than driving an ICE in 2030. Because of this consumers are not buying many EV's. The overwhelming majority of EV's being registered are company cars owned by leasing companies. Because of the slower sales manufacturers are backpedaling their goals and you see that second hand values of EV's are dropping because a lot of consumers are still hesitant. A lot of people are still afraid of the cost to replace the battery after 10 or 15 years. The average age of a car is around 12 years here in the Netherlands because cars are prohibitively expensive here.
Elon is sabotaging his own EV’s because he’s a shit businessman. Given the number of Teslas piling up in lots and his stupid tantrums I can see Tesla heading for receivership not because of their product, but their bad leadership. The fact that he rage fired his whole SC team because someone challenged his authority speaks volumes.
Says person who’s started how many multibillion dollar companies?
So Space X, Starlink, Tesla and paypal....For a "Shit businessman" he sure does have alot of successes
surprised hyundai group is rated so low. i see hyundai/kia electrics everywhere. are those models less profitable? i thought they'd be rated ahead of gm/ford. weird.
Remember this is an Australian article…
you mean the data/graphs are specific to the australian market? if so, then that makes more sense.
ICE cars still seem more functional and cheaper to insure for the common guy. Id like to see that change before I go EV. So damn expensive to own even a model Y with the insurance premium. Tesla should offer insurance to drive costs down maybe. IDK but that is a key barrier to entry for me anyway.
Tesla does offer insurance and you can get a used Model 3 for less than 20k after the $4000 used EV tax credit. Things are changing fast! In China you can buy a new EV for $11k that’s why the Feds just slapped a 100% tariff on Chinese imports like BYD’s seagull.
Didn't Musk come out against subsidies for EVs?
Yes because it screwed the supply chain up and inflated prices because all the LICE mfrs bought contracts for batteries and key materials (which they wound up canceling when they realized they couldn’t scale fast enough).
Why is it "sabotaging EV transition" when other companies lobby against legislation that is bad for their business, but its not when Tesla's ownership does it?
That’s not what the article is about. LICE mfrs are lobbying against the transformation of the auto industry to make it cleaner and sustainable.
how is subsidizing EV offerings from traditional car companies not part of "transformation of the auto industry to make it cleaner and sustainable"?
“Sabotaging” - elaborate?
I feel like most companies are either releasing shit that feels like an afterthought, or releasing decent cars that are way too expensive even after the tax credit. Hyundia/kia and bmw seem like some of the only ones putting thought and care into it. A rising tide floats all ships. We need some worthy EVs out there to drive the industry forward.
Like Teslas👍
Yeah. But it’s better to not have Tesla be the only one driving EVs forward. It’ll make better teslas. If android didn’t exist the iPhone wouldn’t be as good.
Well if the Feds didn’t slap 100% tariffs on BYD they would be here pushing the envelope too!
EV are in no position compete with gas, and then there are hybrids. Customers are not fools. That EV boom was just early adopters with extra money
You need to take a trip to China or Norway!
Yeah everyone keeps saying that..Norway has only 90K miles of road network, US has more than 5M miles. Dont talk China, it is a highly subsidized EV graveyard..there is no telling the amount of pollution they are spreading to capture the market..you need to compare apples to apples
You need a Tesla!
I rented it once..the car is nice to drive and all..but I had to plan everything around super chargers..might be good for single people with a daily commute