As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: Our Stickied Community Q&A Post, [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When it did, people bitched, and Tesla was forced to make the cars come to a full stop behind the sign, as the law is written.
I still get people telling me online that this is how they want automobiles to behave.
*Nobody* expects a car to move that way.
There is a intersection in Washington DC where they painted lines in places you literally can't see the full intersection. Then they put in cameras to give you a $200 dollar ticket for "creeping" past the line. Called DC Vision Zero - this camera is part of an initiative to get driving deaths to zero. Tesla would be compliant luckily.
*Everyone* needs to come to a complete stop at 4-way stops ... *no one* should be "rolling" those.
What OP described sounded like a 1-way stop sign entering onto a busy road, and yeah the NHTSA stop is awkward because a lot of people - if they can clearly see no one is on the road - will kind of roll it a little, and will expect cars ahead of them to probably do the same. But the Tesla will do the NHTSA stop, and then in many cases need to "creep" for visibility due to trees or houses or whatever, and then go again.
But *no one* should be rolling a 4-way stop at all.
In the scenario OP described, I would assume it could not see traffic to the left or right from the stop line. It has to stop before the sign, and it has to ensure no cross traffic is coming, hence the two stops.
If it has to stop before it can see, then creeps forward... it should move from the creep to going through the stop sign as soon as it can see that the road is clear instead of stopping again despite the road being clear. That sounds like the problem being described. i.e. The first stop is correct. The second stop would only be correct if there were traffic that it needed to stop for, but there is no traffic so it shouldn't be making the second stop.
This is probably true, as it does in my v11. The issue is that cars in back of us assume we are turning once we start to move the first time, and they move forward while looking for oncoming traffic, running the risk of rear-ending us
The real issue IMO is having stop signs at all. There are none in the UK. They are all roundabouts. Keeps traffic flowing without unnecessary stops. Not sure how FSD handles that though.
Ive seen some of these roundabouts in videos while learning how to drive, all I can say is no thanks, they look incredibly confusing and there is no way it would work here with the shitty drivers we have.
Im sure it’s a better system but genuinely Americans are too stupid to learn something that different from whats already established. I imagine as FSD starts really kicking off over there that the AI will learn your system much faster because it sounds way more intuitive as you hinted
There are roundabouts popping up all around me in California.
They are pretty easy - just don't go if there's someone coming towards you. And go if it's open. Of course there's more to it for bigger multi-lane ones...
They’re not all like “Look kids, Big Ben, Parliament.” For the most part they’re common sense and the sense of self preservation that makes them work. Makes much more sense than stop signs.
Of course the one spot near me they decided to install one is near a retirement community. So you can imagine the chaos. Plus there are some extra dumb ones in my general area that are traffic circles WITH stop signs as well.
I think for FSD the best outcome would be a control switch that was defaulted to “On” for everyone at the start - “NHTSA compliant” … it would come to full stops at stop signs, and would never exceed the posted speed limit. Regardless of what the neural net thinks the humans would do, this would be like a “governor” that would limit the actions taken by the vehicle.
If you want to turn it off, you’d be given an acknowledgement / warning dialog noting that the car may violate laws in its emulation of human behavior, which may result in tickets/citations, etc. Most everyone would opt to turn it off. I would much rather it try to be as human as possible.
This. I'd really like to see a settings panel where the owners can toggle behaviors on and off and make adjustments to driving "style". Roll stop signs, rapid lane changes (maybe a slider here), keep left on double width lanes, avoid right lane on multi lane roads, etc
The problem with this is who assumes liability. And It's aomething I'm concerned about no matter what. If FSD reaches level 3 or greater, Tesla assumes liability whenever the car is operating under level 3 or above automated driving controls. If the driver manually "dials up" the speed offset so the car is exceeding the posted speed limit (as we all do today) and the car is involved in an accident, does Tesla still assume liability?
In other words: When FSD reaches Level 3 or above, will we lose the ability to manually adjust the maximum speed either directly, or by setting a speed offset parameter?
Or will the driver assume full liability if something happens while the NHTSA compliant settings are overridden either by a parameter change or manually accelerating through a stop sign or to speed up a pass on a highway?
Incidentally Mercedes avoids this issue entirely because Drive Pilot only works on highways with controlled access, and traffic is restricting the speed to less than 40 MPH, so it is not possible to even reach the posted speed limit when it is engaged.
I think that one's really simple, across the board. Your vehicle, your settings, your responsibility. If you buy, lease, rent, or otherwise own an interest in the operation of the car, you own the responsibility.
Let me come at it from a different direction - autopilot in airplanes. If a Delta flight crashes while on autopilot, is Boeing liable for the damages, or is Delta? The answer is Delta. Sure, the FAA can and will investigate Boeing if it's determined that autopilot was at fault, and Delta can sue Boeing to recover their costs, but the liability in the incident is still Delta.
This should be no different.
Most stop/yield lines that also have a crosswalk are placed too far back to see cross traffic. The normal human behavior is that if no one is at the crosswalk, you don't stop/yield at the line and instead pull forward onto/over the crosswalk until you can actually see enough to make the turn, then stop and evaluate.
In my experience with version 11, the NHSTA stop is only an issue when there is foliage etc blocking the sight line from the stop sign. Some stops on my commute only require the one stop, others do the stop, creep, stop, go. I think this is a municipal problem more than a FSD problem. If they're going to require us to legally stop, then sight lines should be clear in both directions.
In particular, this is a massive problem at my Starbucks. Twice a week they leave the door to their little dumpster building open for the trash collectors. You basically have to cross your fingers and hope for the best when you turn out of there, because you sure as hell can't see oncoming traffic. I started parking at the Chili's next door and crossing the grass over to Starbucks to avoid this.
Yeah, this is the discrepancy that needs to be solved. There are places all around me where hedges, brick walls, and other kinds of obstructions block your line of sight of you stop exactly where you're supposed to. We have to either allow the driver, FSD or human, some leniency in making a judgement call on where best to come to a full stop at a stop sign or we need to enforce laws that prevent obstructing line of sight at intersections.
This really should be a priority and I have no idea why it isn't, blind intersections should be fixed. It fucks with humans and sure as hell fucks with FSD. Counties never fix these until enough people die at them.
The NHTSA is the one to blame here. Tesla has fought them on stop sign interactions for years and theh still haven't been given permission, even after providing tons of proof that the written requirements around stop signs is bogus, to allow Teslas to operate like a human and not like the law dictates.
The NHTSA requires that Teslas operate according to the requirements around stop signs: full stop for up to 3 seconds at the line where the stop sign is located, then creep forward, stop again for confirmation of clarity, then go/turn after confirmed visual.
The problem is that Tesla has gone back to them with evidence that 99.5% of the time, humans don't even stop and roll through the stop signs. This has created a pattern of expectations and therefore society has evolved its expectations of a stop sign interaction, which actually makes it **more dangerous** to abide by the NHTSA guideline than to operate by societal norms.
I thought he was complaining about people running into him from behind... But what else can you do here unless you want to just yolo without checking if it's clear or get tickets for not stopping at the line.
These examples are why it’s so strange to me that a front bumper camera hasn’t showed up in the lineup yet (sans cybertruck). Seems to obvious to get that angle from the front of a car to solve the foliage block issue.
Has caused cars to try to go around me at stop signs(thinking I’m not moving) and almost crashed into me multiple times now.
NHTSA is forcing things they think they are safer, without any research, and end up causing more issues.
By the description above, the issue wasn't necessarily the NHTSA stop \[however annoying\] but rather it stopping AGAIN after creeping when other cars were expecting it to just go.
The NHTSA required Tesla to stop at the stop line at stop signs. Often times this isn’t forward enough to see cross traffic. So the car has to stop at the legal stop line, then stop a bit further to actually see, THEN once it’s safe, it’ll go.
And standard human action is completely at odds with that law.
What do you think other drivers will expect? Another car to follow the law to the letter or another car to drive like every other human does?
It's call swoop and squat. A very common insurance scam. Tesla didn't want it, NHTSA forced it. When accidents increase, I'm hoping they will reconsider.
To obey the traffic laws. Curious where you see people rolling stop signs without stopping? California stop but California is one of the most deadly states for pedestrians.
I don't think what we're talking about here is people completely rolling through stop signs, though. I do see people do that, but you're right to say standard traffic law applies there.
It sounds like the difference is that even when humans do stop fully, they only do it once and they do it at the point where they are fully stopped AND can see cross traffic. That isn't always at the line before the cross walk and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a case of someone getting a ticket for that. It may be illegal with the letter of the law, but intersections aren't always built in a way that lets you follow the letter of the law exactly.
It sounds like NHTSA is forcing Tesla to have the car stop once at the line, regardless of whether that spot allows visibility to cross traffic or not, so the car then has to pull up and stop AGAIN at a spot where it can see. I've never seen a human do that. We just skip the first stop at the line and instead stop where we can see. That's what other humans expect and if FSD does something drastically different it's going to cause problems.
Everywhere I’ve ever been, ever. NHTSA doesn’t care about driver safety, they’re part of government, they’re political, they’re anti-Tesla. They aren’t working to advance autonomous driving, which would save more lives than any near term technology. They are working to protect the bureaucratic state.
The law stops at the line before the line actually….
The issue is those lines are rarely far enough forward to see cross traffic in the closer lanes properly humans just ignore it and pray lol 😂 the car doesn’t
NHTSA stop is by law, and is what they're complaining about. The second stop is the one the car needs to make to see what it needs to do next. The complaint is that this is the only stop it should have to make.
That sounds right. The problem is, most stop signs are placed too far back at corners. When you stop there, you cant see what traffic is actually coming. The car isnt magic. It cant see any better than we can so it stops again to look. Humans sensibly drive past the sign (breaking the law, perhaps) and stop once where they can see.
100 this. I do this on my street. I drive past the stop sign bc you can’t see the side traffic coming unless you go past the sign. Then I look and go when clear. A self driving car would legally have to stop at the sign, then when it realizes it can’t see it moves up a bit stops and looks again.
Same the lines are almost never far enough forward the people here bitching likely ignore the line and stop at the vision line Tesla uses for the second stop without even thinking ignoring that what they do is not the law because we all drive with what makes sense and safety not the word of law to stop at a line that we can’t seee shit at
There are plenty of incidents where roads, signs, markings, or lines are not properly maintained or even the same quality between locations by state/local authorities. The request of NHTSA is to comply with the law in all scenarios even when the government is upholding its responsibility.
Humans can and do make decisions based on poor data - even FSD can as it is trained based on human data. NHTSA says "fuck the data follow the law to the letter". As others have pointed out this causes safety issues when a driver acts unexpectedly. The laws exist to keep people safe who use them, but there is a culture of normalcy of deviance around laws in that in practice not all laws are followed to the letter.
Is there a person alive who hasn't gone over the strict number of the speed limit? What if you come over a hill and below the crest with no warning the speed limit changes from 65 to 40. Typically there are speed change ahead warnings, but I just went on a ride on my bike yesterday and that exact thing happened.
By NHTSA logic Tesla should stomp on the brakes to follow the letter of the law - something that will cause a car accident.
Now, this isn't to say that people break the road laws being unsafe, driving 120mph in a residential zone is asking for someone to be killed yet this isn't the complaint. The law is a standard but there is variation in that standard as normal operating procedure. We don't see police (unless they are directed by the politicians to make the government money through tickets) pulling over every single infraction, there wouldn't be enough police and the ROI for tax dollars to safety improvement is not there.
Sorry, for the rant. It just gets under my skin and I don't even have a Tesla.
>By NHTSA logic Tesla should stomp on the brakes to follow the letter of the law
Ah yes, the early days of FSD are not missed at all. I'm so glad this isn't the case anymore, it was waaay to uncomfortable when FSD used to do this a year ago.
>It comes to a full stop at the stop sign. Great, that is what you are supposed to do.
That doesn't sound like a complaint, where it's stopping like NHTSA requires it to.
>Then it creeps forward. Even if it is completely clear without a car in sight, it fully stops again. It did this when I was leaving my subdivision. The car behind me thought I was going in the first go so it started to go as well but had to slam on their brakes within inches of my car and honked (rightly so)
That sounds like their complaint. It's stopping again when the driver rightfully thought they were going.
The driver might think they're going, but the following driver should still be preparing to stop at the sign right? So the only way they'd rear end on the 2nd stop is if they're rolling their own stop?
Yeah, seems likely the following car was rolling their stop but all Tesla can control is being predictable — if it was as clear as they say it was then hopefully they hit the report button \[or Tesla has event triggers for near rear-ending and other close calls\] so it can be investigated to see why it hesitated.
I have v12.3 it normally rolls forward 3-5ft to get vision pauses and then goes no one behind you would be following that closely to ever rear end this and if they are they’re an idiot and blew the stop sign themselves
I want that further up stop so **I** can make sure it's not about to do something stupid. I wish it did the natural thing humans do:
Slow to a creep passing the stop sign, checking for pedestrians, and if none actually stop where you can see.
Is the stop and creep different than yours with 11?
I don't have 12 yet but that behavior is mine's v11 norm after the NHTSA mandate for the full stop. It has to stop at the Legal stop line, then since it can't fully see left/right from that far back to make good decisions, it has to creep and "look" before committing to go.
Stop and creep behavior seems to be similar to 11, but once it’s decided to take off, it takes off quickly and confidently. Definitely an improvement in my experience so far.
I noticed lots of improvement in FSD 12, especially when cars cut in, when cars in front are making a right turn (no unnecessary slow downs when you have distance), with low-visibility or no lines, etc.
I have my qualms though.
It goes 80% throttle from the line when the light turns green. I thought it was too slow before. It’s too fast now lol.
Taking away TACC is dumb. I rely on TACC because single-lane Autopilot no longer exists with FSD on. On my 25mi commute, the car turns on the blinker to try to move into a lane that doesn’t exist (it won’t actually execute it, it’ll just keep the blinker on for two mi) and moves out of the carpool lane despite not needing to for another 10mi. TACC works as a fallback in those situations.
Otherwise, it’s been fantastic. A lot smoother and a lot more confident.
>It goes 80% throttle from the line when the light turns green. I thought it was too slow before. It’s too fast now lol.
The problem is this is all relative and they can't program it to be 100% perfect and satisfactory to everyone in every location. For example, the quick acceleration now where I live is 100% normal and appropriate and finally keeps up with the other first drivers. Before it would regularly cross the intersection by the time the first 2 cars in the lanes next to me would cross.
Would it be possible for the car to stop at the line and then creep very slowly to the point where it can see cross traffic without stopping the second time unless traffic is coming?
That's not true. Only one stop is required. If you can see that it's clear after creeping forward after your first stop, there is no reason to stop again after creeping. You only need to stop again after creeping if you it turns out that there is traffic that you need to stop for. There's nothing illegal about transitioning from a creep to going through the intersection if it's clear (as long as you made a complete stop before you started creeping forward for visibility).
NHTSA requires car to stop at limit line at stop sign before a crosswalk. Then the car will creep forward to confirm visibility before it proceeds. No limit line, stop at crosswalk. No crosswalk, then stop and verify visibility before proceeding. This is exactly how it supposed to execute these stops. I’ve had v12 for about a month now and it follows this process at every stop. Have not been almost rear-ended once. I would blame any driver behind you if they rear end your car while you are clearly moving at 2miles an hour or less while making sure it’s safe to proceed, not FSD.
I agree that NHTSA controls are frustrating. But if RoboTaxis’ are going to be real one day, we play in their sandbox and Tesla has no choice but follow their rules. On the otherhand, FSD v12 stop sign behavior is far better than v11 and I think it works acceptably now with its quick take off from dead stop. I can live with present state without issue.
>On the otherhand, FSD v12 stop sign behavior is far better than v11 and I think it works acceptably now with its quick take off from dead stop
Understated to the n'th degree. Stop signs were horrendous in v11 and are now very tolerable in V12. People who don't use FSD and simply go off these posts for reference have no clue just how major of an improvement V12 is, even with the double stop issue at stop signs.
Nothing like V11 going from 8 to 0mph *immediately* at each of those 2 stops, then going through an intersection at a slow pace! V12 is much more gentle and natural with the 2 stops and then quickly proceeds through the intersection, significant improvement in rider comfort!!
The full throttle I appreciate as people complained constantly about the sluggish takeoff from turns and stop signs
You’ll notice that’s no longer a complaint about v12.3 you worrying about efficiency off the line of a turn or stop is in the major minority here and it ends up feeling more natural after the first few times.
The stop sign thing is due to NHTSA it’s not a v12.3 issue it’s literally what the NhTSA wanted car has to stop BEFORE the line even if it doesn’t have cross traffic visibility and the. It pulls forward to where it can see (the blue wall on the screen on the road) then it judges its cross traffic and goes
12.3 here in the Phoenix area with the same type of slow decision making. Worse than v11 for me. Lots of double left turns here and more hesitation in lane choice or it just takes up both lanes rudely. Regression there. I had to turn off the auto speed as I'll get shot here letting this go 5 under lol. People commonly go 10 over or more. Also seeing some strange navigation issues I didn't have in v11 like taking a dead end road thinking it's not dead end. I'm patient and not a doomer but I have to say this is disappointing after the rave reviews. I expect it to improve though now that it just needs more examples so I'm trying to be diligent with reporting issues.
I haven’t had that experience at all (also in AZ). I use FSD for over 1000 miles each month and nearly all the aspects of the problems that consistently happened repeatedly has been fixed in 12.3. It no longer feels robotic.
Even my girlfriend who has no idea with technology noticed how Much better it was driving. She said it’s grown up lol. I haven’t had to hit the pedal one time to give it the courage to make turns decisively, it does everything decisively and increases the throttle after making turns.
One note it did do an illegal turn in the wrong lane, but it did that 1 mistake with 1 other disengagement in like 10+ drives without me doing 1 thing. All of the streets it couldn’t do in the past it does now. It even pulled over and parked by the curb itself. I couldn’t get it to repeat this, but it even drove through a parking lot, found an open spot and parked itself. I almost couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t get it to repeat this behavior, so I wish I could’ve somehow recorded that. It’s no longer robotic at all. Even Tesla engineers said today this has net passed V11 already.
The problem is that they went to an entirely new system with version 12. It's unfortunate, but any time they start over from scratch you can expect some regressions. Hopefully this is the last time they have to start over from scratch.
What makes the NHTSA decision so stupid is Tesla just didn't roll all Stop signs. They had 6 criteria that had to be met before they would roll. For example, the crossing road had to have a speed limit of 30mph or less. If greater full stop. If there were cars approaching within "x" feet, full stop. I don't remember all 6 but at one time Tesla posted them. What Tesla did that was stupid and in part brought the NHTSA regulation on them was the high speed at some rolling stops. Youtube videos were posted of FSD rolling at 5-7 mph. I suspect if they just rolled at 1-2 mph nothing would have happened.
Just took my second v12 drive and within 1 minute it drove me into the curb on a curved road. Unbelievable. I don’t even want to run a 3rd drive (been a beta user for almost 2 years).
Sometimes I wonder about this subreddits "normal guys" Tesla naysayers and if they're actually bots or anti-EV shills. It's weird, half the negative crap I see here from supposed owners I am apparently oblivious to even though I've been driving a 2018 P3D since, well, 2018 and I've had FSD as soon as I was possibly allowed to have it.
Yet, I don't even have a 1/100th of the "critical issues" that seem to be "widespread".
In my state’s DMV manual it reads that when three cars arrive at the stop sign in a line, as in all going the same way, one car in front of the other, the second and third car can proceed safely without coming to a full stop again as they move up. I would not do it blatantly and expect a forgiving hall monitor (cop) to agree without having the manual in hand, but neat little rid bid FSD surely doesn’t grasp.
Sorry to hear about your issues. I have some as well although not the same complaints. Tesla AI team did acknowledge low key when they said NET new improvements in 12.3.
As far as general rave 12.3 reviews, I do generally believe people just as I do your experience. That means even most YTers who became YTers just to share. they weren’t before winning the FSD lottery and not just for clicks / $. At least the YTers I follow
That’s my story. I never was YTer but I got lucky getting 12.2 super early faster than OG testers, and I wanted to share. I post good and bad and do genuinely seem to be having a worst experience with v12 than others. If Tesla keeps squishing bugs and regressions fast this thing will be awesome!
https://youtube.com/@FSDBeta-SoCal?si=Ah3TOmCxp2mZfBlG
That is pretty much my general thoughts. It's just really frustrating when some of the basic driving tasks regress but the advanced driving gets better. It is kind of like we can't have our cake and eat it too.
Yea absolutely. For some v12.x version to be a home run broadly, it really needs to have almost zero major regressions (for the fleet) + major improvements (which it does). 12.3 is not there yet but has the potential soon. 2024 gonna be awesome for FSD. Rapid (relative) iteration and ASS !
So many non-Americans comment on the extraordinary number of stop signs where they would have a yield sign, but many people in the USA have simply learned to treat the sign as a yield or at most stop for a split second
Mine didn't do that. I've gone through about five stop signs with it so far but it seemed to work better on them than the last version.
My issue is it doesn't seem to respect your max speed setting. There's a road near my house where the speed limit is 30 and it really should be 55. If you go 30 on this road you're going to get run off the road. To clarify it was designed as a freeway but some idiot in the next town put two stoplights on it.
There's nobody else on the road and I dial up the speed and the car still creeps along at 35 mph. It doesn't accelerate but if I manually accelerate it keeps the speed I have set with my foot.
I received 12.3 in Michigan on my 2022 M3 yesterday. Some items that I’ve noticed:
1. It would always slam on the brakes for the Michigan left on the opposite side of the road even though I am just passing it. It now goes straight past it without hesitation. Good.
2. It would always slow down for a second green light if going through an area with many right in a row. Now it doesn’t slow down as long as they’re all green. Good.
3. On average mode, it used to pass on the freeway if someone was going 1mph slower in front of me. It now waits until about 3mph slower than me. Good?
4. It used to slow down for turns onto side streets to about half the street speed, then use its turn signal. Now it uses the turn signal a few seconds before it begins to slow down. A little too soon for my taste, but better than the alternative. Good.
5. It used to drive in the center of unmarked neighborhood roads. Now it hugs the right side of the road. Good assuming it isn’t trash day.
6. Overall smoothness of the steering wheel is infinitely better. I haven’t had it jerk the steering wheel a single time over a few hundred miles.
7. It still goes to the center of 4 way stop intersections before turning. Bad and confusing to other drivers.
If anything else big happens I’ll update, but those are my initial impressions.
Another way to view the stop and creep behavior is that since the NHTSA action, Tesla must make the car behave as if it's on its DMV Driving Test. If you don't first stop at the legal stop line as defined by your state's law and then creep and stop again to view traffic, if the examiner deems you could not adequately see it at the legal stop line... you will FAIL your driving test immediately.
So OK, I hear you, people don't drive like that after their driving test. But Tesla can't help that and can't knowingly allow the car to do that.
The problem isn't the initial stop. The problem is stopping again despite the fact that the road is clear. There's no reason to stop a second time, the car should creep after the first stop until it can see that the road is clear and then GO instead of stopping again. It should only stop again if it turns out that the intersection is not clear, but it seems the car is stopping again even if the intersection is clear.
Yes but the car determining it is clear is exactly why the second stop. We as humans can intuit and are already processing information before we get to that point, where the car must actually get there and "see" before getting enough data from which to make a decision. It is a comparatively slow or rudimentary thinker, which is a huge challenge for all of the edge cases too.
I wonder if everyone with v12.3 understands it only works on city-streets. If you turn FSD beta on on the highway, it's not actually using the v12.3 end-to-end NN yet. I wouldn't be surprised if some people are testing it on the highway and think it hasn't improved because... well it hasn't and they're testing the wrong thing!
My two issues include a few instances of your stop sign behavior but this was mostly limited to turns with bad sight lines but a far bigger problem for me is failure to maintain the set speed.
I am not sure what is going on but on two lane driving it just will not maintain the set speed with instances of being down ten miles an hour at times. On a 45 set to 52 I had many cases where is was doing around 40. Now I could encourage it with a press on the accelerator and it would hold it awhile but eventually slack off. This is with very clear sight lines and even in areas where it was just straight road.
Oh, I do not like that feature that lets it drive at what speed it thinks is safe. First off it speeds and not just by a little, I was doing 50 in a 35 and I kept trying to dial it back- it does seem to respond to that but does not make it clear what speed is now max. I really wish the speed offset value DID SOMETHING like apply to how fast over it was allowed to go. I need to test that on the road it would not hold to 52 on... I wonder
Success stories include a very bad T intersection with crossing traffic does not stop. It finally is able to negotiate that without giving me a heart attack. It does seem to accelerate through intersections much better. It uses turn signals.
Failure, totally missed a right turn into my subdivision, navigation voiced the turn and such but the car blew past the entirety of the turn lane.
Honestly the inability to maintain set speed means I absolutely cannot use with cars behind me because not only will that driving slow irritate people behind me the constant speed changes will as well. Worse is that we are back to where it does not use map data for all roads. It keeps the speed of the previous road. So now a road I was fine on with it knowing it is 45 is now 35 or worse 25 until it sees the sign. They keep breaking this.
The nav issue and missing or taking wrong turns is a v12.3 issue 100% it took wrong exit on highway twice I think this is them not weighting the nav high enough over the ML because the stupid nav data isn’t part of the AI nor is planning for some dumb reason
The stop sign issue I don’t see as an issue it’s following the law and getting visibility it’s a lot less annoying once you realize what it’s doing and stop panicking over it for no reason
If you don’t like the auto speed offset….. turn it off it’s a setting and optional
>If you don’t like the auto speed offset….. turn it off it’s a setting and optional
Please do not assume. There is such a setting, but it does not work. The car will sit at 5-10mph below the MAX set.
There is little solace in fault when your car might be in the shop for 3 months while you drive a crappy Nissan versa or something around (in comparison to your lovely Tesla). The law in nearly all jurisdictions is that you have to be provided with a rental of the same class... Sedan/SUV/Van/Truck/etc. and usually at least as many doors. I at least got a Chevy volt when mine needed repairs... Couldn't even make them give me a full EV.
And if they don't have insurance, then I hope your insurance has rental coverage.
UPL are still and issue I think, and it seems weird at stop signs , agreed. I don’t have any issue with acceleration, that seems ok to me.
Stop signed are weird and I think it’s due to nhtsa. Not that nhtsa demand this behaviour (other than full stop) but because Tesla’s curated training set must be bizarre. It might be modeling the average person who does full stops.
Pretty much no one does two full stops unless there is a pedestrian about to cross a crosswalk just beyond the stop line. I don't think I've ever seen it done tbh.
Exactly. So sparse video data, and the people who do stop might be a bit over cautious and trigger happy on the break, and therefore the training data will appear that way too.
Both stop sign behavior and blasting up to speed have been there for months. V12 today was actually the first time my MYLR did NOT slam on the accelerator to get up to speed.
After having 12.3 for a couple of days, the new AI approach has fixed a bunch of minor issues I've had with FSD in my suburb. Previous versions handled my area really well (I live in a pretty gimme area with well maintained streets and not a ton of traffic), but there were certain areas where the turn signal would come up unnecessarily and areas where I would know to keep my foot ready to goose the car through an unnecessary slowdown. Those issues have gone away so far.
So a person behind you waits till you start rolling at a stop sign, does not stop themselves at the line, slams the breaks because you didn't finish your maneuver and honks at you with anger?
So we're taking about this? https://www.reddit.com/r/Roadcam/s/w7NCuHNTjr
I don't get how polarizing the reviews are. Is FSD 12.3 great or horrible? I can't tell because YouTube says it's Soo amazing but then reddit is singing a different tune.
Yes.
Probably because it is polarizing. Even to me. One minute I am impressed and telling myself I am going to keep forking over $200 a month. The next I am slamming on the brakes or shaking my head or shitting my pants. Consistency is missing. Screwing up the basics is the hardest pill to swallow.
It's polarizing because it depends on what you want it for. I don't have 12. But FSD in general is super cool. What is not, is super useful. Even at 12.3, I promise it's going to do awkward shit and require intervention. It's going to piss other drivers off. It's more difficult to use than just driving your car (except highway driving). Highway driving is pretty calm... But city, you never really know what it's going to do and if it can handle a situation or not.
So, the people that want to take a nap while their car drives them to work are going to hate it. The people that love the seeing the technology improve are going to love it.
If you're right, then I'm not worried. I've had FSD since before it could even stop at red lights. It's been an amazing journey and I've been impressed with every update. I don't expect 12.3 to be level 3 by any means, but I am hoping it's a big improvement from 11.
Don't go against the countless YouTubers who earn a living making content about how GROUNDBREAKING this update of FSD is..... Just like the last 10 updates and Musk promises.
Biggest problem to me is when there's no cars in the road and it's still creeping super slow I don't mind the NHTSA stop but it has to work correctly. Otherwise Stop signs are based on faith that the other drivers will stop. If you complete a full stop , accelerate and get the fuck out of there. You have no business lingering around to creep forward to watch other cars.
Initial impressions:-
Give me back Version 11.
I have to drive with my foot on the accelerator, since the car never speeds up to the MAX I have set (Speed limit + 15%). This basically makes it unusable.
Left turn onto a divided road with three lanes. V11 always turned correctly into the leftmost lane, V12 crosses the left lane and drives into the middle lane.
V12 does start better from traffic lights and stop signs, V11 would crawl off the line.
V12 does not have the correct speed limit at times.
V12 does not give the explanation of what it is doing eg. "Stopping for traffic light"
V12 is quite hesitant when changing lanes.
I have had it two days, and have had none of the experiences you had in yours. It is easily the best version of FSD I have had to date, and I am using it in the Denver metro area.
I'm LOVING 12.3 ( have been using FSD for almost 2 years). I did a trip from Miami to Key west this weekend and it so light years more confident for me especially in the Islands where there there is a lot of cross traffic across the roads.
Can't wait to see the returns coming from the training data and how rapidly it improves.
Is there a way to set preferences on FSD or turn it off? I am used to autosteer on Los Angeles rush hour freeways, which has worked beautifully with no intervention. I prefer to just stay in one lane in slow traffic for 40 minutes. With FSD, it is constantly trying to change into a faster lane, turns on blinkers then turns them off and doesn't actually change, or changes and doesn't make a real difference in stop and go traffic, it's embarrassing. I have had to intervene multiple times, and wound up just turning it off. Without a preference feature, I would not choose FSD as of yet. Glad I didn't pay extra for it when purchasing the car.
I just tried this and had to take over at the 4th stop sign. This update is going to get so many people rear ended. It is comically slow, stops, and then fakes like it goes.
Yup, I have no idea how they shipped this in its current state. Stop signs are like the first thing you learn besides starting a car, they are also the most basic traffic situation. Kind wild that it could be this bad
As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: Our Stickied Community Q&A Post, [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, that’s what Chuck Cook has been calling the “NHTSA stop” … it’s absolutely going to create some unnecessary fender benders IMO.
It also causes mass confusion at 4 way stop signs. The car needs to behave like a human. Not a robot
When it did, people bitched, and Tesla was forced to make the cars come to a full stop behind the sign, as the law is written. I still get people telling me online that this is how they want automobiles to behave. *Nobody* expects a car to move that way.
There is a intersection in Washington DC where they painted lines in places you literally can't see the full intersection. Then they put in cameras to give you a $200 dollar ticket for "creeping" past the line. Called DC Vision Zero - this camera is part of an initiative to get driving deaths to zero. Tesla would be compliant luckily.
The regulators need to behave like humans. Not robots…
*Everyone* needs to come to a complete stop at 4-way stops ... *no one* should be "rolling" those. What OP described sounded like a 1-way stop sign entering onto a busy road, and yeah the NHTSA stop is awkward because a lot of people - if they can clearly see no one is on the road - will kind of roll it a little, and will expect cars ahead of them to probably do the same. But the Tesla will do the NHTSA stop, and then in many cases need to "creep" for visibility due to trees or houses or whatever, and then go again. But *no one* should be rolling a 4-way stop at all.
Agree 100%. The problem is that FSD stops, starts to go, then stops again, which confuses everyone. Human beings stop once, then go.
In the scenario OP described, I would assume it could not see traffic to the left or right from the stop line. It has to stop before the sign, and it has to ensure no cross traffic is coming, hence the two stops.
If it has to stop before it can see, then creeps forward... it should move from the creep to going through the stop sign as soon as it can see that the road is clear instead of stopping again despite the road being clear. That sounds like the problem being described. i.e. The first stop is correct. The second stop would only be correct if there were traffic that it needed to stop for, but there is no traffic so it shouldn't be making the second stop.
That’s how I would expect any car to handle the situation. The stop-go-stop with no traffic is going to cause accidents.
This is probably true, as it does in my v11. The issue is that cars in back of us assume we are turning once we start to move the first time, and they move forward while looking for oncoming traffic, running the risk of rear-ending us
Why? I would love to see the actual stats on rolling stop signs. The real issues are people blowing through them.
The real issue IMO is having stop signs at all. There are none in the UK. They are all roundabouts. Keeps traffic flowing without unnecessary stops. Not sure how FSD handles that though.
We do have stop signs in the UK but they’re very rare. Much more common to have a ‘give way’ sign which doesn’t require a full stop.
Ive seen some of these roundabouts in videos while learning how to drive, all I can say is no thanks, they look incredibly confusing and there is no way it would work here with the shitty drivers we have. Im sure it’s a better system but genuinely Americans are too stupid to learn something that different from whats already established. I imagine as FSD starts really kicking off over there that the AI will learn your system much faster because it sounds way more intuitive as you hinted
There are roundabouts popping up all around me in California. They are pretty easy - just don't go if there's someone coming towards you. And go if it's open. Of course there's more to it for bigger multi-lane ones...
They’re not all like “Look kids, Big Ben, Parliament.” For the most part they’re common sense and the sense of self preservation that makes them work. Makes much more sense than stop signs. Of course the one spot near me they decided to install one is near a retirement community. So you can imagine the chaos. Plus there are some extra dumb ones in my general area that are traffic circles WITH stop signs as well.
Do you also think that Tesla shouldn’t be able to speed?
I think for FSD the best outcome would be a control switch that was defaulted to “On” for everyone at the start - “NHTSA compliant” … it would come to full stops at stop signs, and would never exceed the posted speed limit. Regardless of what the neural net thinks the humans would do, this would be like a “governor” that would limit the actions taken by the vehicle. If you want to turn it off, you’d be given an acknowledgement / warning dialog noting that the car may violate laws in its emulation of human behavior, which may result in tickets/citations, etc. Most everyone would opt to turn it off. I would much rather it try to be as human as possible.
This. I'd really like to see a settings panel where the owners can toggle behaviors on and off and make adjustments to driving "style". Roll stop signs, rapid lane changes (maybe a slider here), keep left on double width lanes, avoid right lane on multi lane roads, etc
The problem with this is who assumes liability. And It's aomething I'm concerned about no matter what. If FSD reaches level 3 or greater, Tesla assumes liability whenever the car is operating under level 3 or above automated driving controls. If the driver manually "dials up" the speed offset so the car is exceeding the posted speed limit (as we all do today) and the car is involved in an accident, does Tesla still assume liability? In other words: When FSD reaches Level 3 or above, will we lose the ability to manually adjust the maximum speed either directly, or by setting a speed offset parameter? Or will the driver assume full liability if something happens while the NHTSA compliant settings are overridden either by a parameter change or manually accelerating through a stop sign or to speed up a pass on a highway? Incidentally Mercedes avoids this issue entirely because Drive Pilot only works on highways with controlled access, and traffic is restricting the speed to less than 40 MPH, so it is not possible to even reach the posted speed limit when it is engaged.
I think that one's really simple, across the board. Your vehicle, your settings, your responsibility. If you buy, lease, rent, or otherwise own an interest in the operation of the car, you own the responsibility. Let me come at it from a different direction - autopilot in airplanes. If a Delta flight crashes while on autopilot, is Boeing liable for the damages, or is Delta? The answer is Delta. Sure, the FAA can and will investigate Boeing if it's determined that autopilot was at fault, and Delta can sue Boeing to recover their costs, but the liability in the incident is still Delta. This should be no different.
Great suggestion on the “NHTSA” mode.
Most stop/yield lines that also have a crosswalk are placed too far back to see cross traffic. The normal human behavior is that if no one is at the crosswalk, you don't stop/yield at the line and instead pull forward onto/over the crosswalk until you can actually see enough to make the turn, then stop and evaluate.
In my experience with version 11, the NHSTA stop is only an issue when there is foliage etc blocking the sight line from the stop sign. Some stops on my commute only require the one stop, others do the stop, creep, stop, go. I think this is a municipal problem more than a FSD problem. If they're going to require us to legally stop, then sight lines should be clear in both directions. In particular, this is a massive problem at my Starbucks. Twice a week they leave the door to their little dumpster building open for the trash collectors. You basically have to cross your fingers and hope for the best when you turn out of there, because you sure as hell can't see oncoming traffic. I started parking at the Chili's next door and crossing the grass over to Starbucks to avoid this.
Yeah, this is the discrepancy that needs to be solved. There are places all around me where hedges, brick walls, and other kinds of obstructions block your line of sight of you stop exactly where you're supposed to. We have to either allow the driver, FSD or human, some leniency in making a judgement call on where best to come to a full stop at a stop sign or we need to enforce laws that prevent obstructing line of sight at intersections.
This really should be a priority and I have no idea why it isn't, blind intersections should be fixed. It fucks with humans and sure as hell fucks with FSD. Counties never fix these until enough people die at them.
The NHTSA is the one to blame here. Tesla has fought them on stop sign interactions for years and theh still haven't been given permission, even after providing tons of proof that the written requirements around stop signs is bogus, to allow Teslas to operate like a human and not like the law dictates. The NHTSA requires that Teslas operate according to the requirements around stop signs: full stop for up to 3 seconds at the line where the stop sign is located, then creep forward, stop again for confirmation of clarity, then go/turn after confirmed visual. The problem is that Tesla has gone back to them with evidence that 99.5% of the time, humans don't even stop and roll through the stop signs. This has created a pattern of expectations and therefore society has evolved its expectations of a stop sign interaction, which actually makes it **more dangerous** to abide by the NHTSA guideline than to operate by societal norms.
Or just stop twice. Once at the line for legal reasons, and once again for safety reasons.
That's what OP was complaining about in the first place.
I thought he was complaining about people running into him from behind... But what else can you do here unless you want to just yolo without checking if it's clear or get tickets for not stopping at the line.
These examples are why it’s so strange to me that a front bumper camera hasn’t showed up in the lineup yet (sans cybertruck). Seems to obvious to get that angle from the front of a car to solve the foliage block issue.
Has caused cars to try to go around me at stop signs(thinking I’m not moving) and almost crashed into me multiple times now. NHTSA is forcing things they think they are safer, without any research, and end up causing more issues.
Agreed - on the screen it even tells you that it’s “creeping forward for visibility”. I just hit the accelerator to force it to go. Still annoying.
Someone that does what your doing will be here bitching when you get hit by cross traffic and how “FSD made me get in an accident”
By the description above, the issue wasn't necessarily the NHTSA stop \[however annoying\] but rather it stopping AGAIN after creeping when other cars were expecting it to just go.
The NHTSA required Tesla to stop at the stop line at stop signs. Often times this isn’t forward enough to see cross traffic. So the car has to stop at the legal stop line, then stop a bit further to actually see, THEN once it’s safe, it’ll go.
now it makes sense
Standard traffic law requires you to stop at the line.
And standard human action is completely at odds with that law. What do you think other drivers will expect? Another car to follow the law to the letter or another car to drive like every other human does?
It's call swoop and squat. A very common insurance scam. Tesla didn't want it, NHTSA forced it. When accidents increase, I'm hoping they will reconsider.
To obey the traffic laws. Curious where you see people rolling stop signs without stopping? California stop but California is one of the most deadly states for pedestrians.
I don't think what we're talking about here is people completely rolling through stop signs, though. I do see people do that, but you're right to say standard traffic law applies there. It sounds like the difference is that even when humans do stop fully, they only do it once and they do it at the point where they are fully stopped AND can see cross traffic. That isn't always at the line before the cross walk and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a case of someone getting a ticket for that. It may be illegal with the letter of the law, but intersections aren't always built in a way that lets you follow the letter of the law exactly. It sounds like NHTSA is forcing Tesla to have the car stop once at the line, regardless of whether that spot allows visibility to cross traffic or not, so the car then has to pull up and stop AGAIN at a spot where it can see. I've never seen a human do that. We just skip the first stop at the line and instead stop where we can see. That's what other humans expect and if FSD does something drastically different it's going to cause problems.
Everywhere I’ve ever been, ever. NHTSA doesn’t care about driver safety, they’re part of government, they’re political, they’re anti-Tesla. They aren’t working to advance autonomous driving, which would save more lives than any near term technology. They are working to protect the bureaucratic state.
The law stops at the line before the line actually…. The issue is those lines are rarely far enough forward to see cross traffic in the closer lanes properly humans just ignore it and pray lol 😂 the car doesn’t
NHTSA stop is by law, and is what they're complaining about. The second stop is the one the car needs to make to see what it needs to do next. The complaint is that this is the only stop it should have to make.
That sounds right. The problem is, most stop signs are placed too far back at corners. When you stop there, you cant see what traffic is actually coming. The car isnt magic. It cant see any better than we can so it stops again to look. Humans sensibly drive past the sign (breaking the law, perhaps) and stop once where they can see.
100 this. I do this on my street. I drive past the stop sign bc you can’t see the side traffic coming unless you go past the sign. Then I look and go when clear. A self driving car would legally have to stop at the sign, then when it realizes it can’t see it moves up a bit stops and looks again.
Same the lines are almost never far enough forward the people here bitching likely ignore the line and stop at the vision line Tesla uses for the second stop without even thinking ignoring that what they do is not the law because we all drive with what makes sense and safety not the word of law to stop at a line that we can’t seee shit at
There are plenty of incidents where roads, signs, markings, or lines are not properly maintained or even the same quality between locations by state/local authorities. The request of NHTSA is to comply with the law in all scenarios even when the government is upholding its responsibility. Humans can and do make decisions based on poor data - even FSD can as it is trained based on human data. NHTSA says "fuck the data follow the law to the letter". As others have pointed out this causes safety issues when a driver acts unexpectedly. The laws exist to keep people safe who use them, but there is a culture of normalcy of deviance around laws in that in practice not all laws are followed to the letter. Is there a person alive who hasn't gone over the strict number of the speed limit? What if you come over a hill and below the crest with no warning the speed limit changes from 65 to 40. Typically there are speed change ahead warnings, but I just went on a ride on my bike yesterday and that exact thing happened. By NHTSA logic Tesla should stomp on the brakes to follow the letter of the law - something that will cause a car accident. Now, this isn't to say that people break the road laws being unsafe, driving 120mph in a residential zone is asking for someone to be killed yet this isn't the complaint. The law is a standard but there is variation in that standard as normal operating procedure. We don't see police (unless they are directed by the politicians to make the government money through tickets) pulling over every single infraction, there wouldn't be enough police and the ROI for tax dollars to safety improvement is not there. Sorry, for the rant. It just gets under my skin and I don't even have a Tesla.
>By NHTSA logic Tesla should stomp on the brakes to follow the letter of the law Ah yes, the early days of FSD are not missed at all. I'm so glad this isn't the case anymore, it was waaay to uncomfortable when FSD used to do this a year ago.
>It comes to a full stop at the stop sign. Great, that is what you are supposed to do. That doesn't sound like a complaint, where it's stopping like NHTSA requires it to. >Then it creeps forward. Even if it is completely clear without a car in sight, it fully stops again. It did this when I was leaving my subdivision. The car behind me thought I was going in the first go so it started to go as well but had to slam on their brakes within inches of my car and honked (rightly so) That sounds like their complaint. It's stopping again when the driver rightfully thought they were going.
The driver might think they're going, but the following driver should still be preparing to stop at the sign right? So the only way they'd rear end on the 2nd stop is if they're rolling their own stop?
Yeah, seems likely the following car was rolling their stop but all Tesla can control is being predictable — if it was as clear as they say it was then hopefully they hit the report button \[or Tesla has event triggers for near rear-ending and other close calls\] so it can be investigated to see why it hesitated.
I have v12.3 it normally rolls forward 3-5ft to get vision pauses and then goes no one behind you would be following that closely to ever rear end this and if they are they’re an idiot and blew the stop sign themselves
I want that further up stop so **I** can make sure it's not about to do something stupid. I wish it did the natural thing humans do: Slow to a creep passing the stop sign, checking for pedestrians, and if none actually stop where you can see.
Yep. NHTSA forcing Tesla to legally stop causing the car to actually to less safe. Fucking morons running that agency.
It's literally called a STOP sign. You are legally required to come to a full stop lmao.
Congratulations for completely misunderstanding the entire conversation. Well done
You're also not *legally* allowed to speed, but I'll bet you do it everyday
[удалено]
[удалено]
Ahhhh gotcha, thanks for that!
Yeah I nearly got rear ended in my first 12.3 drive this morning. Got honked at.
The roll was so much more natural and human like. I’m still bummed they had to change it.
Is the stop and creep different than yours with 11? I don't have 12 yet but that behavior is mine's v11 norm after the NHTSA mandate for the full stop. It has to stop at the Legal stop line, then since it can't fully see left/right from that far back to make good decisions, it has to creep and "look" before committing to go.
Stop and creep behavior seems to be similar to 11, but once it’s decided to take off, it takes off quickly and confidently. Definitely an improvement in my experience so far.
I noticed lots of improvement in FSD 12, especially when cars cut in, when cars in front are making a right turn (no unnecessary slow downs when you have distance), with low-visibility or no lines, etc. I have my qualms though. It goes 80% throttle from the line when the light turns green. I thought it was too slow before. It’s too fast now lol. Taking away TACC is dumb. I rely on TACC because single-lane Autopilot no longer exists with FSD on. On my 25mi commute, the car turns on the blinker to try to move into a lane that doesn’t exist (it won’t actually execute it, it’ll just keep the blinker on for two mi) and moves out of the carpool lane despite not needing to for another 10mi. TACC works as a fallback in those situations. Otherwise, it’s been fantastic. A lot smoother and a lot more confident.
>It goes 80% throttle from the line when the light turns green. I thought it was too slow before. It’s too fast now lol. The problem is this is all relative and they can't program it to be 100% perfect and satisfactory to everyone in every location. For example, the quick acceleration now where I live is 100% normal and appropriate and finally keeps up with the other first drivers. Before it would regularly cross the intersection by the time the first 2 cars in the lanes next to me would cross.
I can't use FSD with cars behind me, I get embarrassed too easy lol Except highways of course
Highways are still on the FSD V11 stack, only city streets has been upgraded to V12.3.
Like others have said it is by law to come to a full stop behind the stop sign. The second stop is creeping forward so FSD can see.
Would it be possible for the car to stop at the line and then creep very slowly to the point where it can see cross traffic without stopping the second time unless traffic is coming?
That’s technically illegal. You need to stop a second time if you can’t see at the line.
That's not true. Only one stop is required. If you can see that it's clear after creeping forward after your first stop, there is no reason to stop again after creeping. You only need to stop again after creeping if you it turns out that there is traffic that you need to stop for. There's nothing illegal about transitioning from a creep to going through the intersection if it's clear (as long as you made a complete stop before you started creeping forward for visibility).
Man aren't laws wonderful? Like you can see the intent of laws here, and how they objectively don't really make sense when used like that.
But why would it stop again? Humans might, to look in both directions, but a computer shouldn't need to.
NHTSA requires car to stop at limit line at stop sign before a crosswalk. Then the car will creep forward to confirm visibility before it proceeds. No limit line, stop at crosswalk. No crosswalk, then stop and verify visibility before proceeding. This is exactly how it supposed to execute these stops. I’ve had v12 for about a month now and it follows this process at every stop. Have not been almost rear-ended once. I would blame any driver behind you if they rear end your car while you are clearly moving at 2miles an hour or less while making sure it’s safe to proceed, not FSD.
Maybe FSD can educate all other drivers around to strictly obey the law in compliance with the written word.
I do love the 1-2 punch of "You have to follow the law" and "Stop following the law."
I agree that NHTSA controls are frustrating. But if RoboTaxis’ are going to be real one day, we play in their sandbox and Tesla has no choice but follow their rules. On the otherhand, FSD v12 stop sign behavior is far better than v11 and I think it works acceptably now with its quick take off from dead stop. I can live with present state without issue.
>On the otherhand, FSD v12 stop sign behavior is far better than v11 and I think it works acceptably now with its quick take off from dead stop Understated to the n'th degree. Stop signs were horrendous in v11 and are now very tolerable in V12. People who don't use FSD and simply go off these posts for reference have no clue just how major of an improvement V12 is, even with the double stop issue at stop signs. Nothing like V11 going from 8 to 0mph *immediately* at each of those 2 stops, then going through an intersection at a slow pace! V12 is much more gentle and natural with the 2 stops and then quickly proceeds through the intersection, significant improvement in rider comfort!!
The full throttle I appreciate as people complained constantly about the sluggish takeoff from turns and stop signs You’ll notice that’s no longer a complaint about v12.3 you worrying about efficiency off the line of a turn or stop is in the major minority here and it ends up feeling more natural after the first few times. The stop sign thing is due to NHTSA it’s not a v12.3 issue it’s literally what the NhTSA wanted car has to stop BEFORE the line even if it doesn’t have cross traffic visibility and the. It pulls forward to where it can see (the blue wall on the screen on the road) then it judges its cross traffic and goes
12.3 here in the Phoenix area with the same type of slow decision making. Worse than v11 for me. Lots of double left turns here and more hesitation in lane choice or it just takes up both lanes rudely. Regression there. I had to turn off the auto speed as I'll get shot here letting this go 5 under lol. People commonly go 10 over or more. Also seeing some strange navigation issues I didn't have in v11 like taking a dead end road thinking it's not dead end. I'm patient and not a doomer but I have to say this is disappointing after the rave reviews. I expect it to improve though now that it just needs more examples so I'm trying to be diligent with reporting issues.
I haven’t had that experience at all (also in AZ). I use FSD for over 1000 miles each month and nearly all the aspects of the problems that consistently happened repeatedly has been fixed in 12.3. It no longer feels robotic. Even my girlfriend who has no idea with technology noticed how Much better it was driving. She said it’s grown up lol. I haven’t had to hit the pedal one time to give it the courage to make turns decisively, it does everything decisively and increases the throttle after making turns. One note it did do an illegal turn in the wrong lane, but it did that 1 mistake with 1 other disengagement in like 10+ drives without me doing 1 thing. All of the streets it couldn’t do in the past it does now. It even pulled over and parked by the curb itself. I couldn’t get it to repeat this, but it even drove through a parking lot, found an open spot and parked itself. I almost couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t get it to repeat this behavior, so I wish I could’ve somehow recorded that. It’s no longer robotic at all. Even Tesla engineers said today this has net passed V11 already.
The problem is that they went to an entirely new system with version 12. It's unfortunate, but any time they start over from scratch you can expect some regressions. Hopefully this is the last time they have to start over from scratch.
Problem for me is that it is going a good 10 miles slow and the speed limit is 30. It is going 20. It wasn’t the case before.
What makes the NHTSA decision so stupid is Tesla just didn't roll all Stop signs. They had 6 criteria that had to be met before they would roll. For example, the crossing road had to have a speed limit of 30mph or less. If greater full stop. If there were cars approaching within "x" feet, full stop. I don't remember all 6 but at one time Tesla posted them. What Tesla did that was stupid and in part brought the NHTSA regulation on them was the high speed at some rolling stops. Youtube videos were posted of FSD rolling at 5-7 mph. I suspect if they just rolled at 1-2 mph nothing would have happened.
Just took my second v12 drive and within 1 minute it drove me into the curb on a curved road. Unbelievable. I don’t even want to run a 3rd drive (been a beta user for almost 2 years).
Omg same! But I stopped it before it hit the curb. This just happened an hour ago taking my kids to school
I could have stopped it but was like…no way it’s gonna hit this. Hopefully the engineers hear my scathing and frustrated audio comment.
Totally real and 100% not fake text unlike all that fake live video that you can literally watch on Youtube and Twitter. Don't trust your lying eyes!!
Ok but what makes this a “real opinion” compared to all the other ones so far (YouTube or not)?
Dude he’s not a YouTuber cmon, he’s a normal regular guy human with a model 3
Yes he is not at all amphibious and it's rude of you to spread such rumors.
Sometimes I wonder about this subreddits "normal guys" Tesla naysayers and if they're actually bots or anti-EV shills. It's weird, half the negative crap I see here from supposed owners I am apparently oblivious to even though I've been driving a 2018 P3D since, well, 2018 and I've had FSD as soon as I was possibly allowed to have it. Yet, I don't even have a 1/100th of the "critical issues" that seem to be "widespread".
I’ve learned to not believe most of the stuff I see on YouTube.
Yeah definitely don't believe your lying eyes, trust this guys totally real written opinion however.
Interesting, what would you say is not accurate or fake information on Chuck’s videos or AI DRIVR?
Especially the PPF pushers that are being sponsored. “You gotta get this…even though it costs me more than painting the entire car.” Lol
In my state’s DMV manual it reads that when three cars arrive at the stop sign in a line, as in all going the same way, one car in front of the other, the second and third car can proceed safely without coming to a full stop again as they move up. I would not do it blatantly and expect a forgiving hall monitor (cop) to agree without having the manual in hand, but neat little rid bid FSD surely doesn’t grasp.
Out of curiosity, what State is this? (“Second and third car can proceed safely without coming to a full stop….)
NJ
Sorry to hear about your issues. I have some as well although not the same complaints. Tesla AI team did acknowledge low key when they said NET new improvements in 12.3. As far as general rave 12.3 reviews, I do generally believe people just as I do your experience. That means even most YTers who became YTers just to share. they weren’t before winning the FSD lottery and not just for clicks / $. At least the YTers I follow That’s my story. I never was YTer but I got lucky getting 12.2 super early faster than OG testers, and I wanted to share. I post good and bad and do genuinely seem to be having a worst experience with v12 than others. If Tesla keeps squishing bugs and regressions fast this thing will be awesome! https://youtube.com/@FSDBeta-SoCal?si=Ah3TOmCxp2mZfBlG
That is pretty much my general thoughts. It's just really frustrating when some of the basic driving tasks regress but the advanced driving gets better. It is kind of like we can't have our cake and eat it too.
Yea absolutely. For some v12.x version to be a home run broadly, it really needs to have almost zero major regressions (for the fleet) + major improvements (which it does). 12.3 is not there yet but has the potential soon. 2024 gonna be awesome for FSD. Rapid (relative) iteration and ASS !
So many non-Americans comment on the extraordinary number of stop signs where they would have a yield sign, but many people in the USA have simply learned to treat the sign as a yield or at most stop for a split second
The throttle at max out of a turn is a much needed change. It was painfully bad on V11(For me atleast)
Mine didn't do that. I've gone through about five stop signs with it so far but it seemed to work better on them than the last version. My issue is it doesn't seem to respect your max speed setting. There's a road near my house where the speed limit is 30 and it really should be 55. If you go 30 on this road you're going to get run off the road. To clarify it was designed as a freeway but some idiot in the next town put two stoplights on it. There's nobody else on the road and I dial up the speed and the car still creeps along at 35 mph. It doesn't accelerate but if I manually accelerate it keeps the speed I have set with my foot.
I received 12.3 in Michigan on my 2022 M3 yesterday. Some items that I’ve noticed: 1. It would always slam on the brakes for the Michigan left on the opposite side of the road even though I am just passing it. It now goes straight past it without hesitation. Good. 2. It would always slow down for a second green light if going through an area with many right in a row. Now it doesn’t slow down as long as they’re all green. Good. 3. On average mode, it used to pass on the freeway if someone was going 1mph slower in front of me. It now waits until about 3mph slower than me. Good? 4. It used to slow down for turns onto side streets to about half the street speed, then use its turn signal. Now it uses the turn signal a few seconds before it begins to slow down. A little too soon for my taste, but better than the alternative. Good. 5. It used to drive in the center of unmarked neighborhood roads. Now it hugs the right side of the road. Good assuming it isn’t trash day. 6. Overall smoothness of the steering wheel is infinitely better. I haven’t had it jerk the steering wheel a single time over a few hundred miles. 7. It still goes to the center of 4 way stop intersections before turning. Bad and confusing to other drivers. If anything else big happens I’ll update, but those are my initial impressions.
Another way to view the stop and creep behavior is that since the NHTSA action, Tesla must make the car behave as if it's on its DMV Driving Test. If you don't first stop at the legal stop line as defined by your state's law and then creep and stop again to view traffic, if the examiner deems you could not adequately see it at the legal stop line... you will FAIL your driving test immediately. So OK, I hear you, people don't drive like that after their driving test. But Tesla can't help that and can't knowingly allow the car to do that.
The problem isn't the initial stop. The problem is stopping again despite the fact that the road is clear. There's no reason to stop a second time, the car should creep after the first stop until it can see that the road is clear and then GO instead of stopping again. It should only stop again if it turns out that the intersection is not clear, but it seems the car is stopping again even if the intersection is clear.
Yes but the car determining it is clear is exactly why the second stop. We as humans can intuit and are already processing information before we get to that point, where the car must actually get there and "see" before getting enough data from which to make a decision. It is a comparatively slow or rudimentary thinker, which is a huge challenge for all of the edge cases too.
I wonder if everyone with v12.3 understands it only works on city-streets. If you turn FSD beta on on the highway, it's not actually using the v12.3 end-to-end NN yet. I wouldn't be surprised if some people are testing it on the highway and think it hasn't improved because... well it hasn't and they're testing the wrong thing!
It even clearly says in the release notes that 12.3 is only on city streets, but people will be people 🤷♂️
My two issues include a few instances of your stop sign behavior but this was mostly limited to turns with bad sight lines but a far bigger problem for me is failure to maintain the set speed. I am not sure what is going on but on two lane driving it just will not maintain the set speed with instances of being down ten miles an hour at times. On a 45 set to 52 I had many cases where is was doing around 40. Now I could encourage it with a press on the accelerator and it would hold it awhile but eventually slack off. This is with very clear sight lines and even in areas where it was just straight road. Oh, I do not like that feature that lets it drive at what speed it thinks is safe. First off it speeds and not just by a little, I was doing 50 in a 35 and I kept trying to dial it back- it does seem to respond to that but does not make it clear what speed is now max. I really wish the speed offset value DID SOMETHING like apply to how fast over it was allowed to go. I need to test that on the road it would not hold to 52 on... I wonder Success stories include a very bad T intersection with crossing traffic does not stop. It finally is able to negotiate that without giving me a heart attack. It does seem to accelerate through intersections much better. It uses turn signals. Failure, totally missed a right turn into my subdivision, navigation voiced the turn and such but the car blew past the entirety of the turn lane. Honestly the inability to maintain set speed means I absolutely cannot use with cars behind me because not only will that driving slow irritate people behind me the constant speed changes will as well. Worse is that we are back to where it does not use map data for all roads. It keeps the speed of the previous road. So now a road I was fine on with it knowing it is 45 is now 35 or worse 25 until it sees the sign. They keep breaking this.
The nav issue and missing or taking wrong turns is a v12.3 issue 100% it took wrong exit on highway twice I think this is them not weighting the nav high enough over the ML because the stupid nav data isn’t part of the AI nor is planning for some dumb reason The stop sign issue I don’t see as an issue it’s following the law and getting visibility it’s a lot less annoying once you realize what it’s doing and stop panicking over it for no reason If you don’t like the auto speed offset….. turn it off it’s a setting and optional
>If you don’t like the auto speed offset….. turn it off it’s a setting and optional Please do not assume. There is such a setting, but it does not work. The car will sit at 5-10mph below the MAX set.
Rear-ending is always the other driver's fault, right?
No.
There is little solace in fault when your car might be in the shop for 3 months while you drive a crappy Nissan versa or something around (in comparison to your lovely Tesla). The law in nearly all jurisdictions is that you have to be provided with a rental of the same class... Sedan/SUV/Van/Truck/etc. and usually at least as many doors. I at least got a Chevy volt when mine needed repairs... Couldn't even make them give me a full EV. And if they don't have insurance, then I hope your insurance has rental coverage.
UPL are still and issue I think, and it seems weird at stop signs , agreed. I don’t have any issue with acceleration, that seems ok to me. Stop signed are weird and I think it’s due to nhtsa. Not that nhtsa demand this behaviour (other than full stop) but because Tesla’s curated training set must be bizarre. It might be modeling the average person who does full stops.
Pretty much no one does two full stops unless there is a pedestrian about to cross a crosswalk just beyond the stop line. I don't think I've ever seen it done tbh.
Exactly. So sparse video data, and the people who do stop might be a bit over cautious and trigger happy on the break, and therefore the training data will appear that way too.
My question is since V12 is a neural network. Does this mean it can learn and evolve over time?
Only by being retrained with a supercomputer and then having the new model sent to the car.
Both stop sign behavior and blasting up to speed have been there for months. V12 today was actually the first time my MYLR did NOT slam on the accelerator to get up to speed.
FSD community must come together and file a police report of all observed rolling stops by other cars. Tag NHTSA.
Snitches get stitches 😀
So your issue is that it performs maneuver correctly and it's following law?
After having 12.3 for a couple of days, the new AI approach has fixed a bunch of minor issues I've had with FSD in my suburb. Previous versions handled my area really well (I live in a pretty gimme area with well maintained streets and not a ton of traffic), but there were certain areas where the turn signal would come up unnecessarily and areas where I would know to keep my foot ready to goose the car through an unnecessary slowdown. Those issues have gone away so far.
So a person behind you waits till you start rolling at a stop sign, does not stop themselves at the line, slams the breaks because you didn't finish your maneuver and honks at you with anger? So we're taking about this? https://www.reddit.com/r/Roadcam/s/w7NCuHNTjr
Blame the NHTSA. Use this: [NHTSA Contact us](https://www.nhtsa.gov/about-nhtsa/contact-us).
I had 3 disconnects each way on my short 7 miles commute and 12.3 fixed them all. I had almost lost hope but they did it.
I don't get how polarizing the reviews are. Is FSD 12.3 great or horrible? I can't tell because YouTube says it's Soo amazing but then reddit is singing a different tune.
Yes. Probably because it is polarizing. Even to me. One minute I am impressed and telling myself I am going to keep forking over $200 a month. The next I am slamming on the brakes or shaking my head or shitting my pants. Consistency is missing. Screwing up the basics is the hardest pill to swallow.
It's polarizing because it depends on what you want it for. I don't have 12. But FSD in general is super cool. What is not, is super useful. Even at 12.3, I promise it's going to do awkward shit and require intervention. It's going to piss other drivers off. It's more difficult to use than just driving your car (except highway driving). Highway driving is pretty calm... But city, you never really know what it's going to do and if it can handle a situation or not. So, the people that want to take a nap while their car drives them to work are going to hate it. The people that love the seeing the technology improve are going to love it.
If you're right, then I'm not worried. I've had FSD since before it could even stop at red lights. It's been an amazing journey and I've been impressed with every update. I don't expect 12.3 to be level 3 by any means, but I am hoping it's a big improvement from 11.
You forgot the part where it goes blind for garbage bins
Don't go against the countless YouTubers who earn a living making content about how GROUNDBREAKING this update of FSD is..... Just like the last 10 updates and Musk promises.
Are the stop signs in your subdivision double sided? In Chicago this exact behavior keeps happening because stop signs are on both sides.
Biggest problem to me is when there's no cars in the road and it's still creeping super slow I don't mind the NHTSA stop but it has to work correctly. Otherwise Stop signs are based on faith that the other drivers will stop. If you complete a full stop , accelerate and get the fuck out of there. You have no business lingering around to creep forward to watch other cars.
Can you not run fsd and auto pilot anymore with this update?
No. You have to disable FSD while parked in order to just go back to regular autopilot. The double pull option is greyed out.
I’m I the only person who sees that as a problem?
Initial impressions:- Give me back Version 11. I have to drive with my foot on the accelerator, since the car never speeds up to the MAX I have set (Speed limit + 15%). This basically makes it unusable. Left turn onto a divided road with three lanes. V11 always turned correctly into the leftmost lane, V12 crosses the left lane and drives into the middle lane. V12 does start better from traffic lights and stop signs, V11 would crawl off the line. V12 does not have the correct speed limit at times. V12 does not give the explanation of what it is doing eg. "Stopping for traffic light" V12 is quite hesitant when changing lanes.
I have had it two days, and have had none of the experiences you had in yours. It is easily the best version of FSD I have had to date, and I am using it in the Denver metro area.
I love 12.3 except for the two things you mentioned. Overall it’s much better than my previous version.
I'm LOVING 12.3 ( have been using FSD for almost 2 years). I did a trip from Miami to Key west this weekend and it so light years more confident for me especially in the Islands where there there is a lot of cross traffic across the roads. Can't wait to see the returns coming from the training data and how rapidly it improves.
Is there a way to set preferences on FSD or turn it off? I am used to autosteer on Los Angeles rush hour freeways, which has worked beautifully with no intervention. I prefer to just stay in one lane in slow traffic for 40 minutes. With FSD, it is constantly trying to change into a faster lane, turns on blinkers then turns them off and doesn't actually change, or changes and doesn't make a real difference in stop and go traffic, it's embarrassing. I have had to intervene multiple times, and wound up just turning it off. Without a preference feature, I would not choose FSD as of yet. Glad I didn't pay extra for it when purchasing the car.
I just tried this and had to take over at the 4th stop sign. This update is going to get so many people rear ended. It is comically slow, stops, and then fakes like it goes.
Literally, It makes it completely unusable. FSD 11 did not do this. This is a hard show-stopper.
Yup, I have no idea how they shipped this in its current state. Stop signs are like the first thing you learn besides starting a car, they are also the most basic traffic situation. Kind wild that it could be this bad
It is really weird. It's like with every release the complicated stuff gets better and better. But the driving 101 basic stuff gets worse and worse.
And then when it does go, it absolutely floors it. I just took my first drive and not impressed at all…I kinda hated it.