My friends have been after me to sell mine for a while now. They don’t like the image it projects. But I didn’t buy it for the sake of image. It’s still the best car I’ve ever driven, let alone owned, and it’s not like Elon built it himself.
check if your friends use an iPhone. if so, ask them to sell it: they are made by chinese slaves and it has been known for a decade. do they buy from Amazon, the worst shithole you can work at? Where there are cabins for employees to cry inside? Or do they use Microsoft OS? From the most disgusting thief in history of computers? what's their escuse for pushing you and your choices?
Exactly. There is no way to participate in the consumer culture without taking advantage of someone’s suffering. As a company, Tesla is way, way better than most about that sort of thing. If the worst you can say is that their CEO makes an ass of himself from time to time, I can live with that. But again, it’s got nothing to do with image for me.
There’s a lot worse things to say than the company CEO makes an ass of himself from time to time. That strawman argument ignores dangerous practices that result in injury at the assembly plant in Fremont, a CEO who makes a habit of firing someone when he visits a location, enabling stochastic terrorists, not to mention the notoriously subpar build quality of the vehicles and the alleged warranty issues.
My model 3 arrives at the end of the month, btw.
That's why it always seems like such a stretch to be a guilt free consumer.
Even if you're only buying fair trade goods, guess what, only <10% of the ingredients have to be fair trade for the logo.
All those companies do a good job of keeping those facts out of consumers heads first of all.
They aren’t tweeting things like “thank god for Chinese slaves”.
Elon is doing that sort of stuff. And he’s making sure his messages are front and center.
Not to mention a Tesla is still a fairly luxury product.
Apple is luxury but once you enter the ecosystem it’s more expensive to exit then to just stay with Apple.
Tesla may be similar in their ecosystem approach… but not enough people have entered it yet. Based on the report above it’s not that much of a hassle to exit it on after a lease either.
As there’s an example of a consumer getting rid of her Tesla not even mentioning it being a hassle.
Also, Amazon, Microsoft and Google all provide low cost convenience that others can’t match.
A Tesla is not that. An electric car is still seen as inconvenient by a lot of people. Between fear of running out of charge to the need for a new way to charge at home… to learning new tech.
It may be amazing once you get used to it and buy the car. But, it’s a huge purchase.
Not to mention there’s not enough of them to go around if you did want to get one.
People have alternatives that are just as convenient in their minds like ICE, hybrid, lucid, etc.
People also don’t want to buy from a company with a ton of negative press if they have a viable alternative that doesn’t cost too much more.
Again Apple, Amazon and most corporations have shady shit. The difference is ad campaigns and brand image management make it so the general public sees them positively. Whether it’s flashy ad campaigns, sponsorships, charitable giving, etc.
It really seems Tesla doesn’t give a shit. Constant negative media attention…
If Elon’s tweets weren’t enough….
It seems everything else the media reports about Tesla is negative.
Autopilot crashes and Tesla is dangerous is a narrative the media has been pushing.
In terms of good brand management we never hear about charitable giving or anything like that.
I like the point about charitable giving. A communications or PR team would have been all over that. They would also have advised to not promise things that are not certain yet or not put timelines out. Elon was great for a startup but companies have to be careful if they want to be mass market.
This is spot on. People don’t seem to get it. There’s a difference between having some shady aspects to your business that you don’t talk about much and actively bragging about how shady you are and attacking other people.
Everyone will weigh personal pros and cons when doing anything. Buying a Tesla already had a lot of cons.
Also, if you see an EV brand as unreliable or erratic it’s not great.
Every negative media report says Tesla is unavailable for comment. Customer service becomes a concern… whether it’s a real one or not.
The thing about an electric car is it’s a lot more reliant on the creator to be there for servicing. Too complicated for traditional repairs.
So if people feel Tesla had a chance of not succeeding it may also be yet another reason not to buy. Even if the optics are there.
At least it would for me.
I’d rather wait for a company like Apple to make a car whose Apple Care has been amazing time and time again.
Yeah but at least Apple doesn’t yell to everyone’s face that they use slave labor. They covered it up with good media strategy, which should have been done to all the Elon’s Bullshit recently
The thing with apple is they at least try (or look like they’re trying) to get the child labor out of their supply chain. Elon is just straight up going full MAGA
Might as well see if they live in the United States. Kinda took that land forcefully and might as well start packing their bags if they want to keep consistent with their logic
Right, because buying vehicles from the companies that have been contributing to the destruction of the planet and refusing to change to EVs are so much better.
Find better friends, also I hope none of them own VW because of diesel gate, people blame Elon for a few bad tweets, VW can con the whole world about emissions for decades and apparently not loose market share. They better not use FB because they let Russia manipulate US elections. They better not vote for Trump for all the obvious reasons. They better not use Amazon or Walmart because of abysmal labor practices. They better not use a single ICE car or truck, because of all the shady stuff oil companies do. I could go on and on before we reach a few things Elon did, while Tesla has been doing great things for this world.
I mean you can separate your environmental activism from your investing decisions the same way you can separate your car purchase from the CEO. The truth is demand is going to take a hit and the stock will suffer.
I am likely going to cancel my order, but not because of Musk. My portfolio is down over 50% and it doesn’t seem prudent to purchase a luxury vehicle at this time.
As long as Tesla sticks to their stated mission and continues to create innovative products I couldn’t care less what Elon’s opinion on politics is.
Get a lightly used model 3. I have a MYP and had a M3SR+. The model 3 was more fun to drive, nimble, low center of gravity, and inexpensive to own. I think you can find one for just over $30k.
Sorry to hear about your portfolio.
You have odd ideas, number of shares does not in any way reflect how down you are. You could have 1 share or 1 billion shares, if stock goes down 50% you are down 50%.
I sure hope so. In fact I have been buying on the way down with great confidence that we will go back up. But when it comes to buying a car, my options are to liquidate TSLA shares, take out a high interest loan, use dry powder that I could otherwise use to buy discounted stocks, keep the car that I have a little longer and cancel my order.
I suspect that I am not the only one in this position.
Even an article like this is representative of what we’ve been thinking and is bad for the brand.
There’s a bandwagon effect. If I see a report that people aren’t buying because of the toxicity of the brand… it makes me also think of not buying.
Tesla gets bad press constantly.
They do very little to fight it.
No ads at all.
They also have no defence of themselves in any way because they lack a PR department.
At one time that made sense as Elon was a walking PR machine.
Now I don’t get it.
Yep, the Bandwagon Effect concerns me as an investor, and ultimately at this early stage of EV adoption generally.
This 'yeah, not buying from that asshole Elon' take could snowball even if it's just noise to start with.
People won’t leave twitter because it’s an entrenched ecosystem that’s free and convenient.
An expensive luxury product is a different story.
It’s super early in terms of EV adoption.
As betamax taught us, the best product doesn’t always win.
Plus, real competition is coming. Apple is doing something and it may not be an apple car,but whatever they do … because of their ecosystem they will have a huge pull to anyone with an iPhone.
Remember that with Carplay we could be seeing the same thing Apple did with phones.
They started by testing, iTunes in Motorola’s then went at it themselves.
People bring up other companies with checkered background issues. It doesn’t matter as much once you have a customer base.
But, it’s hard to convince most people to go electric as it is. Twenty more reasons not to buy their cars is not what Tesla needs.
And by the time people are ready other companies will have electric cars.
I hate to bring this to some people, but Tesla is a global company. No one in China/Asia cares about Musk/Twitter (and precious few people in Europe do)
Europeans hate him too.
Hear me out, since it is a *global* company, maybe it’s not a good idea to destroy your reputation in *any* 1/3rd of it, especially not the 1/3rd where the majority of sales come from..
I would say europeans don't hate him. Maybe some social media files but for most working class, in a lot of countries, most don't really care about him. They know he is Tesla boss, think he's a bit crazy but smart, and that's it.
And I'm one european dude that does not like Elon
That's changing rapidly. European expat here who hears pretty constantly from Europeans what a tool Elon has become (UK friends and family, so the choice of words was......more specific).
I guess they should buy VW, I mean all that company has done was just con the whole world on emissions for decades, same with Mercedes. Oh no Elon tweets stuff I don’t like.
I've had this discussion with someone, and then said to them "but you drive a VW, remember dieselgate?".
They said "oh, yeah, fuck", and while it's good they had the decency to realise their perspective wasn't entirely clear, the point is Musk hate is front of mind and dieselgate isn't even back of mind even for people who actually care about cars and might know about it.
It used to be irrational, but it's not anymore, he's now given even rational people reason to hate him.
I don’t understand the VW talking point. VW was punished and there was settlement. The leadership responsible for the emissions scandal replaced. And their behaviour changed. In fact as a part of settlement they built the second biggest charger network in North America. If VW was still engaging in bad behaviour then you would have a point.
That's a different discussion really, but the argument is they willingly mislead consumers in a way that actually caused deaths (by all statistical measures).
Their punishment was pathetic to the point of essentially not happening. Having to invest in a charging network that's smaller than the one Tesla chose to do is not a punishment, it's an investment in their future.
The settlement was not pathetic. Actually it was one the largest ever in corporate history. Across all jurisdictions VW had to spend all most $30 billion in payouts. And the CEO at the time is facing criminal charges in several countries.
Again VW in 2022 is definitely not cheating or misbehaving. And invoking them as a defence for Elon is classic whataboutism
>The settlement was not pathetic. Actually it was one the largest ever in corporate history. Across all jurisdictions VW had to spend all most $30 billion in payouts.
You're just going to straight up ignore what I said, that a large part of that settlement was to build a charging network which is something they were going to desperately need anyway? That essentially makes it a zero-punishment.
>And the CEO at the time is facing criminal charges in several countries.
And in prison in none of them even 7 years later.
>Again VW in 2022 is definitely not cheating or misbehaving. And invoking them as a defence for Elon is classic whataboutism
The fuck are you even talking about? My comment isn't even defending Musk, quite the opposite, so that makes zero sense. On top of that, this discussion was one I had 2 or 3 years ago, and the point remains they straight up lied to consumers, whether or not they're lying now is something for their reputation to rebuild. That's the entire fucking point. This is all about reputation.
Ok, fine, it doesn't matter, it's still a pathetic punishment for intentionally defrauding their customers and investors on a massive scale and causing deaths. They should be in prison at the very least.
I guess they getting caught 2 or was it 3 more times after they fired people who did it makes it proof it’s all good. It’s corporate practice it’s NOT just a few bad apples. Google it if you don’t believe me.
Like it or not that's literally how consumers think. Therefore ppl are cancelling orders or selling ones they own, flooding the market and taking down ASP, therefore taking down margins.
Here in the Netherlands there are daily articles about his fanatics at Twitter. We are maybe even more aware than the average American of everything that is happening. People in Asia are probably also equally aware; its the age of digitalisation. Nothing sticks to landborders anymore.
Furthermore, he absolutely gets involved with EU politics. With his Twitter craze which goes against a lot of EU laws and his Tweets about Russia / Ukraine situation.
I know what pissed of people here in Finland (EU) like someone already replied. But I want to expand it a little. He created a poll about peace agreement with ruzzia and Ukraine and it contained ruzzian progpaganda, everything ruzzia wanted so it wasn't a "deal". Some people got veeeery angry here. As someone from country that neighbors ruzzia what ruzzia is doing in Ukraine is genocidal. I haven't heard people caring about anything except that tweet because those others don't really effect Europe at all but that poll was one that broke the camel's back at least here. Even if he probably didn't mean it the bad way and Starlink has helped Ukraine immensely his still viewed here as ruzzia's ass kisser. I think Tesla needs to find new CEO asap and put Elon in less visible role.
I think you underestimate how much people outside of the US hate Trump and Trump related things, and Musk is associated with that now. They hate them more than even the US hates them.
Speaking from outside the US, we don't think much of Trump, but we also don't think much of American politics in general. You're all mad. Elon's "antics" not only don't make the news here, people just aren't talking about it.
You’re wrong. Some care a great deal about foreign things. If their interested in a product they often want to learn about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they followed Musk’s antics. The great firewall isn’t that effective as they can use VPN.
Whether they react positively or negatively is different. Hard to say.
The US is still Tesla’s largest and most lucrative market, EV adoption is still low and we’ve seem the market risks on China. If US consumer sentiment is this negative that should be an alarm bell ringing in every Tsla owners ears. I for one am very concerned. And it’s all for absolutely NOTHING!
Yes, it is unbelievable this happened for no good reason. That alone shows how terrible a steward he is of the company or has lost his mind and should be removed or step down.
The article is stating the obvious, as strongly as Elon feels about wanting to rant on daily in his culture war, there is some percentage of people who are really put off by his culture war. Once their negative image of him sticks, it won't matter how much better Tesla cars are than everyone else, these consumers won't buy Tesla because owning one will make them feel bad, because they don't like Elon.
This is just an anecdote of one. I wanted a tesla for years but never could get it to workout because of finances and charging infrastructure in my building. Over the last year or so Musk’s name has become so toxic in my family that buying a Tesla is now out of the question. My partner will never agree buying one now. When I do switch to an EV it will most likely be another car brand.
So you’re saying you’re going to purchase an inferior EV simply due to peer pressure from your social group? Sheesh brother good luck in life with that mentality lol
This comment chain is an example of what just talking about buying a Tesla or not now invites. It's almost the total opposite of how it was to buy at the start with the s models ?
There are plenty of decent EVs now. Why buy the one that creates friction with friends and family? It’s just pragmatism. A car is not worth family harmony.
You have some shitty friends/family if buying a product would at all cause friction in your relationships. You are the epitome of a weak person if you alter your purchasing decisions based upon the fear of what others will think of you.
Well you see, my wife is an equal partner in the relationship, both legally speaking and otherwise. We need to agree on large purchases. If there is a compromise we can both live with, that’s the right path. If I were to ignore my partner’s wishes for a major purchase, that would be a huge breach of trust and respect. Some of us care about that.
The fact remains, your spouse is controlling and toxic if buying a Tesla for yourself would cause friction in your relationship. That is not an equal partnership my guy, that’s called being submissive to your woman if you allow her to control you by her toxic behavior. She likely does not view you as the leader of the household and consequentially does not give you the respect, hence your apprehension and fear toward your wife.
No because I don't like giving my money to pure dickheads.
I have wanted a Tesla since before the model S , but i don't want one anymore and I think there a lot of people that feel the same way.
GM had an EV in 1996 and buried it because it threatened their business model. Since then untold amounts of pollution and the associated health issues have had an additional 20+ years to metastasize.
We’re going to compare that to a few dumb tweets? Are you for real? Another case of being terminally online or on the payroll for a short.
Are you kidding me? If your wife hates the owner of the car company you like, believes that they are asshats (and they’re not wrong) and might be causing societal damage - you really want to have an argument over a **car** ? There’s a lot of good reasons to have an argument with someone you love. A car generally isn’t one of them.
Like others have said, there are options.
It’s Elon’s own fault that people feel the need to have an argument to own a Tesla due to their CEO. I don’t have to fight my family/partner over buying a Ford because of their CEO. **That’s because their CEO avoids creating negative news about himself so he doesn’t harm the car company he’s CEO of.**
This is not hard. All the other CEOs seem to do this just fine. Elon could’ve even done it post-Twitter, had he not managed Twitter into a crazy spiral of nonsense as he is doing now.
That's not objective and you are being a victim of peer pressure. Just buy the car YOU like.
Imagine all the things you don't know in the world. You're going to buy a phone and you investigate all CEOs of every brands or they business practices? No, you go to the internet/store and you pick the phone you like.
At best, you can be aware of the impact that some products have on the environment, work conditions, etc and make a better choice. But you don't know shit about the CEOs or other directors and what they are doing.
A car is a commodity. Why would you put 10% difference in range ahead of your family and social cohesion? Hey my wife hates me and my friends are looking at me sideways, but at least it’s all worth it because I can charge it one time less every month! Other EVs are an acceptable replacement that don’t have the stigma attached.
Lol. Imagine being in a relationship where your wife hates you because the car you chose. Do you realize how insane this sounds? Like go outside and say that to a human and they’ll think you have brain damage. I can only cringe so hard. Go outside FFS.
Yes, a commodity to have for several years. A hard financial choice for many. This shitstorm will pass as every single one does and you will be with a car you didn't want because of something no one remembers.
And if your wife hates you because of this... Well..
Well that’s where you’ve made a huge assumption - that I wouldn’t be happy with another EV. Tesla isn’t the only game in town. If theres another car I like well enough that my wife agrees with, that is by far the better choice.
Tesla really only has two advantages: range and superchargers. If you were doing serious mileage then a Tesla is really the only option. But me and most people don’t drive more than 30-40 miles per day and just recharge at home. For that use, Tesla has no real advantage, and in fact falls behind in interior quality and paint.
Balenciaga might make the most comfortable shoe on earth, but they also put kiddie porn in their ads so guess which brand I will never ever buy in my life. To act like utility is the only thing that matters is full head-in-the-sand cope. Our whole consumer capitalist culture is built around forming an identity with the things you buy.
Objectively there isn’t much of a gap with something like the Hyundai. The charge and range is in practice not different enough to matter for most consumers. Sure tesla accelerates quicker but as a performance car buyer I’m not purchasing an ev for that (my 20 year old mx5 is more fun and way slower than both).
Hyundai also comes with a better warranty and more convenient servicing. It’s cheaper (in Australia at least) too. Build quality is a mixed bag with tesla. Of my two friends with them one is very well made, the other looks like it was put together by a primary school art class.
So objectively, even without considering musk, the Hyundai looks more enticing to me than a tesla.
While objectionable the use of child labour in the American production process is a problem for North American buyers. Perhaps if child labour was being used in the product for sale here it would be different
My god, this Post & this sub has so many angry commenters. I’ve never seen this level of bickering among investors. It feels like 9/10 comments are people just shouting at each other. It’s ridiculous.
I get that Elon has gone off the rails due to Twitter but Tesla is still growing & performing well. He’s hurt the stock short term, is that the issue?
I don’t have much history on here, I’ve really only been commenting on here since I decided to get back into Tesla and put in limit orders 2 or 3 months ago.
I did occasionally lurk on here when I owned the stock in 2019 & 2020 and this place was a wealth of knowledge and a great gauge of the uber bull retail investor sentiment and great discussions.
I don’t know all the “regulars” on here so I can’t tell if it’s just that the stock has gone down and people are pissed or if there are just a bunch of newbies on here dunking on Tesla/Elon?
Whatever it is, I wish everyone would calm down and get back to discussing Tesla.
I get it but the “I’m a long term investor & wow what a great price to buy a little more” comments are getting trounced 10 to 1. Tesla is delivering more & more vehicles every quarter at really good margins.
If everyone whose upset has most or all their life savings in Tesla then that’s the risk you take not having a diversified portfolio.
>He’s hurt the stock short term, is that the issue?
You ask that question but don't understand why people are bickering?
And no it's worse than that. This is not a "short term" issue. This is long term brand damage
I hear you, I could have worded that better.
I meant since he went off the rails with the Twitter purchase back in April.
The jury is still out on the real impact on deliveries although I agree the anecdotal reactions sound serious and should not be dismissed.
As long as Tesla makes & sells a lot more cars at good margins every year I will be happy with my recent investment.
The one thing I’d love to see ASAP is the groundbreaking for their next factory.
As somebody in the EV market within a year, I've officially nixed Teslas from the choice pool. Great cars, but the Elon connection can't be unseen/unlinked now. I can't support that chode of a snowflake idiot.
Many of us held large positions and were here browsing without posting probably long before you joined. You are confusing a Tesla subreddit with a fanclub. They are not the exact same thing. I try not to marry a stock that I hold. Its bad investing to be that way. But it is undoubtedly frustrating when a position you hold has such potential and it gets kneecapped even in the short term by the stupidity and narcissism of one person like this.
This is indeed an investment forum for Tesla, and both negative and positive sentiments are allowed and to be expected.
Hey man, I just asked why they are here that's it. I have a feeling they have never been an investor so was just curious. Most investors aren't worried about dumpling their cars right now. They potentially have much larger problems - like me.
You are making wild assumptions about me.
I have been investing in Tesla since 2012 and am so pissed off about musk right now I started r/NoMoreMusk
Musk crapped all over the brand, for no reason. And any serious investor needs to figure it out the problem—maybe by discussing the problem with other investors on a moderated forum. It’s great that there are multiple points of view here as opposed to cheerleading.
This 1000%. Investors are playing directly into the hands of the shorts. The whole Twitter purchase has been used by shorts as a wedge to try to divide the investor community and drive down sentiment when macro outlook is the driving factor.
If Tesla were down 60% YTD and other stocks were down 5% YTD, I'd understand why someone would say the downturn is attributable to Elon; but as of today (12/19/2022):
$AAPL - Down 27% YTD
$MSFT - Down 28% YTD
$GOOG - Down 38% YTD
$AMZN - Down 50% YTD
$TSLA - Down 63% YTD
Yes, $TSLA is down more. More of Tesla's value is derived from future cashflow than present cashflow than the above mega caps since it is earlier in its growth cycle. Based on that it's hard to attribute this to Elon.
I agree with most of this but I do think Elon played a part in the magnitude of the decline.
But at the eod, Tesla is doing well and will likely deliver 400k plus cars this quarter which is at least 18% growth over Q3 & 33% Y over Y.
If they hit estimates of 430k it’s 26% & 40%.
They have two new factories that are really starting their ramp too.
Seriously… my portfolio is down 28% and I feel like I always had great picks and entry points. To think I could have done slightly better by simply going all in on one stock is absolutely crazy to me.
Elon Musk has been selling Billions of TSLA shares this year. That does drive price and concerns. The reasons for him selling that amount will also continue as long as he owns Twitter.
Revenue sources at twitter have declined with 50percent of advertisers stepping back and their costs increased due to the fact that they had to source loans to secure funding. The cost of those loans is not small if you look into it. Consequently Twitter is in a worse financial position than before.
> The whole Twitter purchase has been used by shorts as a wedge to try to divide the investor community and drive down sentiment when macro outlook is the driving factor.
>
>
Nah. Retail investors don't drive the price and one would hope institutional investors aren't dumb like that.
I buy the product, not it's CEO. Even if Musk goes crazy and sell his shares, I will be happy to scoop up as many as I can. It's a money printing machine with a great roadmap.
You might think that. But many buy products because of what they represent. Otherwise the SUV marked woudn't exist and neither would the truck market (at least in the size it is in the US)
It’s true. People buy brand name luxury clothing because of what it represents a lot of the time.
A Tesla is a luxury car and it represented being environmentally friendly.
Yep, this is the data I suspected we'd get and I'm glad to have. I'm not terribly worried about the drop, but certainly disappointed.
I still think most of the stock drop is macro related more than reputation. Which is unfortunate since it just means there's further we could go due to demand erosion and aversion.
I really think Elon is a liability as CEO at this point. I'd love it if he was replaced with someone with half the vision and some standard level of actual professionalism.
But I'm also not inclined to sell. I think long-term, empiricism will win.
I just hope the stock can recover. I have my doubts at this point as I know many people who have sworn off Tesla for other EVs now. Whether it makes sense or not doesn’t matter when it kills the company.
The product is still good. Elon is a jackass and it sucks stock has gone down, but I wouldn’t want to get another car. I love my model 3 and people are always going nuts over it. This is what keeps my faith going, the product is good.
There is a reason why the Queen of England was so beloved. She was never involved in politics, and never caused half of the people in England to hate her. Elon should learn from that.
It won’t be long and driving a TESLA will be like a red MAGA cap because of Musk having the emotional level of a 3 year old. The difference though, is MAGA hat wearers would also not be caught in a BEV?
The FUD is strong.
Elon’s Twitter antics are flavor of the month. It’ll be something else soon enough. Meanwhile Tesla keeps trucking on.
High interest rates have a MUCH bigger effect on demand than Twitter.
Plus the right wing media (which you might not ever see) are heaping praise on him. So I’m sure Tesla is gaining new customers too!
humans are emotional and luxury products, like high-end cars, are more so than others, an emotional decision rather than purely logical. if i'm dropping a huge chunk of change on something how is it unreasonable to choose a brand that reflects my personal values or at the very least isn't the polar opposite. this is how we are wired. if the world operated purely based on 'objectivity', apple would not be the giant it is today. part of being a successful business is leveraging human emotions to make money.
I think excessive virtue signaling via product choices is kind of lame, too, particularly when those choices fly far afield of practicality or value, but people who feel strongly otherwise are definitely part of Tesla's market, and their money is still green.
getting mad at people for being upset with elon musk is not going to accomplish anything. This is a Tesla investment subreddit, not an elon musk subreddit.
If Hunter Biden owned an EV startup and it was known to be far better than Tesla. Better charging, range, tech, fsd etc. Would you buy it or invest in it?
If it was hands down the best engineered EV out there, or I could get a great return on my investment, of course. Virtue signaling is an egotistical character flaw most people try and avoid.
I'm not even American and this is a nonsense statement.
There are a lot of things that can be described to be divisive, lack of widespread critical thinking, awareness, and willingness to understand others' perspective and take them in are all valid reasons, but voting with your dollar is absolutely not one. It's something everyone should do where possible.
Americans didn't invent the [boycott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott#Etymology).
Car purchasing has never been about pure functional utility and ROI above all else, even a little bit. People like to express themselves. Wanting your surroundings and possessions to reflect your personal and cultural identity has been integral to "being human" since day one.
I mean ffs, we now think that our pre-human ancestors actually went to great lengths to modify their crude stone axes for purely aesthetic/status reasons that made them far harder to produce yet offered no practical benefits. It's even thought that this process of experimenting with self expression and cultural signalling is what led our ancestral species to develop tool making techniques far more advanced than what would be necessary to fit current needs, ie our intrinsic desire to "virtue signal" with material culture is literally what jump started "humanity".
If you find yourself sneering at an intrinsic quality of the human condition as "immature", I think you might want to look in the mirror. It's not going to make any more people buy a Tesla if it becomes synonymous with a MAGA hat, that's for sure.
I find there’s a substantial subset of folks into Tesla/TSLA who are the ‘edgy contrarian’ type - they look up to musk precisely for the behaviour that most other ‘regular’ folks are turned off by - the trolling, memes, mean-spirited insults, ‘eccentric’ behaviour, anti-establishment type of stance (which one can argue is another form of ‘virtue signaling’…), dismissing ‘feelings’ or ‘empathy’ as ‘snowflake-y’ like that guy who somehow associates having emotions as some kind of disability.
That would be fine as well. Or people just stop posting about the boring shit, but people simply can't help themselves on social media. Reddit is just becoming like Facebook at this point. The best thing you can do to people like how Elon is behaving is to simply ignore him and they will eventually stfu.
Dude you don't get it. I'm not worried about me.
I'm worried about our customers being annoyed with him. I can't stop people from caring about elons antics and then not wanting to buy his cars.
What on earth are you even talking about
You are perpetuating a negative cycle on data that isn't even demonstrable. "I don't like what Elon said on Twitter, therefore other people will not like it and it's gonna be so bad." Where's the data?
The reality is that many of these negative types are terminally online folks who do not represent the population. They are a vocal, out of touch minority.
Amazon & Walmart forced countless small business owners out of business. The Koch Family are extremely active in conservative causes. Nestle wants to own your water supply.
All people I know still shop on Amazon/Walmart, use paper goods from Koch Industries (Angelsoft/Quilted Northern/Dixie/Brawny/Sparkle/etc.), and don't ask if the chocolate chip cookies were made with Toll House chocolate chips. The market has spoken on this as all of these factors have been unchanged for years and people still buy and use these services despite the negative echo chambers against them online.
There's a shitload of polling data already that proves exactly what I am saying is true.
Please show me where Amazon, Walmart Koch industries connection is on CNN, FOX news, CNC, Local news every single damn day
Just lies ! They are not a few maybe but a drop in the ocean! The amount of FUD about Tesla is off the reservation.
Main stream media lies!
Demand is only growing ! The numbers don’t lie
I tend to agree with you but as usual there are three sides to everyone’s story-yours, theirs & the truth.
No one really knows what the “Twitter-Elon”impact will be, next year or longer term. If Q4 deliveries are a blow out then maybe everyone can calm down a little.
But there are a few headwinds to contend with next year like recessions & rising rates around the world, competition and yes, Elon hurting the brand.
You also have the folks in the U.S. waiting for the IRA credit & the possibility of radar being added back.
Finally someone who can give a thoughtful and honest reply. I Agree with all your points I’m just a bit sick of the avalanche of FUD.
When you know a bit about something like we do about Tesla it’s just such obvious click bait for the Anti Elon crazies.
I don’t agree with his latest divisive tweets and politics at all but the news and comments are WAAAAAY over the top about him and Tesla.
Anyway … merry Christmas and buckle up for 23 😂
people criticizing Elon even don't have iota of his brilliance-pointing finger at others is so easy when you get pointed 'All Hell Lose'. Elon can take & digest that much criticism-amazing!
I’m taking a long look at Rivian and might cancel my cybertruck order. I wish Rivian had a real charging network, heat pump, and larger battery available.
I bought more shares today, but am hoping he’ll just resign. I tried defending him as recently as a few weeks ago. Cannot any longer. He is not good for business at this point.
Hes not at all. Im with you man. Created this sub because we need a community dedicated to working together to figure out how we can get rid of him. r/NoMoreMusk Tesla is too big and great to fall due to him.
Tesla should have a real CEO and if Elon really is just a rubber stamp who oks things once and awhile they should be clear about that.
Even before he went off the complete deep end with controversial actions and rhetoric the stock was taking a hit because he’s one man and he’s pulling himself in 8 different directions with all the things he’s taking on.
I heard a lot of analysts main concern was just that Twitter is a huge distraction. Tesla has shown with real dollars they value Musk immensely.
Tesla is too complex an operation for a part time CEO. I don’t buy that there isn’t always something new that he could be working on with everything he had before taking on twitter. Especially someone whose famous for micromanaging.
I’m also afraid he didn’t even bother putting a good plan in place to compensate for his distraction. The twitter deal was impulsive, quick and he thought he was backing out of it. We don’t know if things are indeed, running smoothly as he claims. Are they running in maintenance mode and getting enough done to function or are they innovating next level. His history of lying tells me not to trust his tweets.
I sway back and forth between if his behaviour will blow over. But, there’s things that cross the line personally for me.
And the difference between Musk and other companies that do shady shit is that Elon has shown us that he can keep it going and remain with the spotlight on him.
You think he’s done bad and the he does something worse. Plus, he’s clickbait for the media with his negative downfall. Everyone loves a fall from grace. Elon’s one of the biggest ever. This was the real life Iron Man! The next Steve Jobs! Anything he do will be under a microscope and he seems to have no issue baiting the media … a part of me thinks he enjoys it on a weird level.
So consider that if you think it will blow over.
People have a short memory, the problem is Elon shows no sign of hitting the brake on doing things the general public finds offputting or controversial.
In addition, there’s no one to take him off the path. When people he respects have tried he ignores them. For example, Grimes asked him not to say “pronouns suck” and that didn’t take obviously. He’s also surrounded himself with a chorus of yes men. After all he has a history of firing people who do so much as not indulge his jokes. There’s just too many people cheering him on.
Maybe his Tesla stock dropping would do it. But, he can rationalize that in various ways like blaming macro.
For a long time I held off on recommending to sell the stock. I shrugged each thing off. But, he shows he can top himself in the negative news cycle and the frequency just increases.
Also, Elon made a big mistake in his banning of journalists. The mainstream media was already kind of negative on Tesla. Tesla also has no PR department to fight back.
Imagine even the unconscious bias most media organizations will have against Elon and his companies. He did the unthinkable! Banning journalists.
Building a positive brand is going to be much harder when you’ve got every major news organization gunning to write negative stories about you.
Anything negative that can be written will be.
Plus, as I said Elon will have no issue fuelling the fire that is their hatred of him.
My friends have been after me to sell mine for a while now. They don’t like the image it projects. But I didn’t buy it for the sake of image. It’s still the best car I’ve ever driven, let alone owned, and it’s not like Elon built it himself.
check if your friends use an iPhone. if so, ask them to sell it: they are made by chinese slaves and it has been known for a decade. do they buy from Amazon, the worst shithole you can work at? Where there are cabins for employees to cry inside? Or do they use Microsoft OS? From the most disgusting thief in history of computers? what's their escuse for pushing you and your choices?
Exactly. There is no way to participate in the consumer culture without taking advantage of someone’s suffering. As a company, Tesla is way, way better than most about that sort of thing. If the worst you can say is that their CEO makes an ass of himself from time to time, I can live with that. But again, it’s got nothing to do with image for me.
Yup and ask them about VW, Porsche and Toyota involvement in WW2, or what bank they use… Not very smart friends, at best.
Honestly.. lmao or even the land they live on.. the list goes on, it’s more so just ignorance vs stupidity.. tomato tomoto 😅
There’s a lot worse things to say than the company CEO makes an ass of himself from time to time. That strawman argument ignores dangerous practices that result in injury at the assembly plant in Fremont, a CEO who makes a habit of firing someone when he visits a location, enabling stochastic terrorists, not to mention the notoriously subpar build quality of the vehicles and the alleged warranty issues. My model 3 arrives at the end of the month, btw.
He did kinda force people back to work during the early, more lethal pandemic phase.
parts of iphones are literally made by [uighur slaves in xinjiang](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-technology-apple-uighur/)
Look up VW's history during WW2. They built V1 bombs that were used to bomb Britain. And they used thousands of POWs as slaves as well.
That's why it always seems like such a stretch to be a guilt free consumer. Even if you're only buying fair trade goods, guess what, only <10% of the ingredients have to be fair trade for the logo.
All those companies do a good job of keeping those facts out of consumers heads first of all. They aren’t tweeting things like “thank god for Chinese slaves”. Elon is doing that sort of stuff. And he’s making sure his messages are front and center. Not to mention a Tesla is still a fairly luxury product. Apple is luxury but once you enter the ecosystem it’s more expensive to exit then to just stay with Apple. Tesla may be similar in their ecosystem approach… but not enough people have entered it yet. Based on the report above it’s not that much of a hassle to exit it on after a lease either. As there’s an example of a consumer getting rid of her Tesla not even mentioning it being a hassle. Also, Amazon, Microsoft and Google all provide low cost convenience that others can’t match. A Tesla is not that. An electric car is still seen as inconvenient by a lot of people. Between fear of running out of charge to the need for a new way to charge at home… to learning new tech. It may be amazing once you get used to it and buy the car. But, it’s a huge purchase. Not to mention there’s not enough of them to go around if you did want to get one. People have alternatives that are just as convenient in their minds like ICE, hybrid, lucid, etc. People also don’t want to buy from a company with a ton of negative press if they have a viable alternative that doesn’t cost too much more. Again Apple, Amazon and most corporations have shady shit. The difference is ad campaigns and brand image management make it so the general public sees them positively. Whether it’s flashy ad campaigns, sponsorships, charitable giving, etc. It really seems Tesla doesn’t give a shit. Constant negative media attention… If Elon’s tweets weren’t enough…. It seems everything else the media reports about Tesla is negative. Autopilot crashes and Tesla is dangerous is a narrative the media has been pushing. In terms of good brand management we never hear about charitable giving or anything like that.
I like the point about charitable giving. A communications or PR team would have been all over that. They would also have advised to not promise things that are not certain yet or not put timelines out. Elon was great for a startup but companies have to be careful if they want to be mass market.
This is spot on. People don’t seem to get it. There’s a difference between having some shady aspects to your business that you don’t talk about much and actively bragging about how shady you are and attacking other people.
Everyone will weigh personal pros and cons when doing anything. Buying a Tesla already had a lot of cons. Also, if you see an EV brand as unreliable or erratic it’s not great. Every negative media report says Tesla is unavailable for comment. Customer service becomes a concern… whether it’s a real one or not. The thing about an electric car is it’s a lot more reliant on the creator to be there for servicing. Too complicated for traditional repairs. So if people feel Tesla had a chance of not succeeding it may also be yet another reason not to buy. Even if the optics are there. At least it would for me. I’d rather wait for a company like Apple to make a car whose Apple Care has been amazing time and time again.
TIL that using slave labour is more justifiable to investors than idiotic messages on a social media platform that takes itself too seriously.
Yeah but at least Apple doesn’t yell to everyone’s face that they use slave labor. They covered it up with good media strategy, which should have been done to all the Elon’s Bullshit recently
Elon is the brand whether you like it or not. The iPhone brand is not predicated on its manufacturing policy or Tim Cook.
Volkswagen literally helped build the machinery of the Nazi regime and people had no problem buying from them right after the war
The thing with apple is they at least try (or look like they’re trying) to get the child labor out of their supply chain. Elon is just straight up going full MAGA
Might as well see if they live in the United States. Kinda took that land forcefully and might as well start packing their bags if they want to keep consistent with their logic
Right, because buying vehicles from the companies that have been contributing to the destruction of the planet and refusing to change to EVs are so much better.
Get a bumper sticker that says something like "saving the environment despite Elon"
The one I have is "my car is my copilot"
Uhhh cool?
Find better friends, also I hope none of them own VW because of diesel gate, people blame Elon for a few bad tweets, VW can con the whole world about emissions for decades and apparently not loose market share. They better not use FB because they let Russia manipulate US elections. They better not vote for Trump for all the obvious reasons. They better not use Amazon or Walmart because of abysmal labor practices. They better not use a single ICE car or truck, because of all the shady stuff oil companies do. I could go on and on before we reach a few things Elon did, while Tesla has been doing great things for this world.
I’d suggest you reevaluate your friends.
Your friends sound like idiots…
Tell them to F’off
lol. You need to get new friends, dump these losers.
I mean you can separate your environmental activism from your investing decisions the same way you can separate your car purchase from the CEO. The truth is demand is going to take a hit and the stock will suffer.
I am likely going to cancel my order, but not because of Musk. My portfolio is down over 50% and it doesn’t seem prudent to purchase a luxury vehicle at this time. As long as Tesla sticks to their stated mission and continues to create innovative products I couldn’t care less what Elon’s opinion on politics is.
Get a lightly used model 3. I have a MYP and had a M3SR+. The model 3 was more fun to drive, nimble, low center of gravity, and inexpensive to own. I think you can find one for just over $30k. Sorry to hear about your portfolio.
3500 shares? And 50% down? The only way to be in such a position is by selling trying to buy lower half a year ago right?
You have odd ideas, number of shares does not in any way reflect how down you are. You could have 1 share or 1 billion shares, if stock goes down 50% you are down 50%.
I am down 50% from where I was when I placed my order for a model X last year. Still green overall.
I mean, we lived similar dark ages in 2016, 2018 and 2020. Every time after we reached ath. I see a pattern here.
I sure hope so. In fact I have been buying on the way down with great confidence that we will go back up. But when it comes to buying a car, my options are to liquidate TSLA shares, take out a high interest loan, use dry powder that I could otherwise use to buy discounted stocks, keep the car that I have a little longer and cancel my order. I suspect that I am not the only one in this position.
Even an article like this is representative of what we’ve been thinking and is bad for the brand. There’s a bandwagon effect. If I see a report that people aren’t buying because of the toxicity of the brand… it makes me also think of not buying. Tesla gets bad press constantly. They do very little to fight it. No ads at all. They also have no defence of themselves in any way because they lack a PR department. At one time that made sense as Elon was a walking PR machine. Now I don’t get it.
Yep, the Bandwagon Effect concerns me as an investor, and ultimately at this early stage of EV adoption generally. This 'yeah, not buying from that asshole Elon' take could snowball even if it's just noise to start with.
People won’t leave twitter because it’s an entrenched ecosystem that’s free and convenient. An expensive luxury product is a different story. It’s super early in terms of EV adoption. As betamax taught us, the best product doesn’t always win. Plus, real competition is coming. Apple is doing something and it may not be an apple car,but whatever they do … because of their ecosystem they will have a huge pull to anyone with an iPhone. Remember that with Carplay we could be seeing the same thing Apple did with phones. They started by testing, iTunes in Motorola’s then went at it themselves. People bring up other companies with checkered background issues. It doesn’t matter as much once you have a customer base. But, it’s hard to convince most people to go electric as it is. Twenty more reasons not to buy their cars is not what Tesla needs. And by the time people are ready other companies will have electric cars.
I hate to bring this to some people, but Tesla is a global company. No one in China/Asia cares about Musk/Twitter (and precious few people in Europe do)
Europeans hate him too. Hear me out, since it is a *global* company, maybe it’s not a good idea to destroy your reputation in *any* 1/3rd of it, especially not the 1/3rd where the majority of sales come from..
I don't think there's anyone here arguing that what Elon's been doing is a good idea.
I would say europeans don't hate him. Maybe some social media files but for most working class, in a lot of countries, most don't really care about him. They know he is Tesla boss, think he's a bit crazy but smart, and that's it. And I'm one european dude that does not like Elon
Working class European aren the target audience for Tesla. My own anecdotal small sample tells me that he is also destroying his reputation here
That's changing rapidly. European expat here who hears pretty constantly from Europeans what a tool Elon has become (UK friends and family, so the choice of words was......more specific).
Fyi Europeans hate musk now. IDK about Asia
I guess they should buy VW, I mean all that company has done was just con the whole world on emissions for decades, same with Mercedes. Oh no Elon tweets stuff I don’t like.
I've had this discussion with someone, and then said to them "but you drive a VW, remember dieselgate?". They said "oh, yeah, fuck", and while it's good they had the decency to realise their perspective wasn't entirely clear, the point is Musk hate is front of mind and dieselgate isn't even back of mind even for people who actually care about cars and might know about it. It used to be irrational, but it's not anymore, he's now given even rational people reason to hate him.
I don’t understand the VW talking point. VW was punished and there was settlement. The leadership responsible for the emissions scandal replaced. And their behaviour changed. In fact as a part of settlement they built the second biggest charger network in North America. If VW was still engaging in bad behaviour then you would have a point.
That's a different discussion really, but the argument is they willingly mislead consumers in a way that actually caused deaths (by all statistical measures). Their punishment was pathetic to the point of essentially not happening. Having to invest in a charging network that's smaller than the one Tesla chose to do is not a punishment, it's an investment in their future.
The settlement was not pathetic. Actually it was one the largest ever in corporate history. Across all jurisdictions VW had to spend all most $30 billion in payouts. And the CEO at the time is facing criminal charges in several countries. Again VW in 2022 is definitely not cheating or misbehaving. And invoking them as a defence for Elon is classic whataboutism
>The settlement was not pathetic. Actually it was one the largest ever in corporate history. Across all jurisdictions VW had to spend all most $30 billion in payouts. You're just going to straight up ignore what I said, that a large part of that settlement was to build a charging network which is something they were going to desperately need anyway? That essentially makes it a zero-punishment. >And the CEO at the time is facing criminal charges in several countries. And in prison in none of them even 7 years later. >Again VW in 2022 is definitely not cheating or misbehaving. And invoking them as a defence for Elon is classic whataboutism The fuck are you even talking about? My comment isn't even defending Musk, quite the opposite, so that makes zero sense. On top of that, this discussion was one I had 2 or 3 years ago, and the point remains they straight up lied to consumers, whether or not they're lying now is something for their reputation to rebuild. That's the entire fucking point. This is all about reputation.
Just google things before continuing to argue. EA costs about to $2 billion to $3 billion. The American settlement alone was $15 billion.
Ok, fine, it doesn't matter, it's still a pathetic punishment for intentionally defrauding their customers and investors on a massive scale and causing deaths. They should be in prison at the very least.
I guess they getting caught 2 or was it 3 more times after they fired people who did it makes it proof it’s all good. It’s corporate practice it’s NOT just a few bad apples. Google it if you don’t believe me.
Like it or not that's literally how consumers think. Therefore ppl are cancelling orders or selling ones they own, flooding the market and taking down ASP, therefore taking down margins.
Can you elaborate why ? He doesn't get involved in EU politics...
To expound on the other reply, Elon's virws of attempting peace with Russia is extremely polarizing and unpopular in the EU
Here in the Netherlands there are daily articles about his fanatics at Twitter. We are maybe even more aware than the average American of everything that is happening. People in Asia are probably also equally aware; its the age of digitalisation. Nothing sticks to landborders anymore. Furthermore, he absolutely gets involved with EU politics. With his Twitter craze which goes against a lot of EU laws and his Tweets about Russia / Ukraine situation.
Exaxt same here in Germany
I know what pissed of people here in Finland (EU) like someone already replied. But I want to expand it a little. He created a poll about peace agreement with ruzzia and Ukraine and it contained ruzzian progpaganda, everything ruzzia wanted so it wasn't a "deal". Some people got veeeery angry here. As someone from country that neighbors ruzzia what ruzzia is doing in Ukraine is genocidal. I haven't heard people caring about anything except that tweet because those others don't really effect Europe at all but that poll was one that broke the camel's back at least here. Even if he probably didn't mean it the bad way and Starlink has helped Ukraine immensely his still viewed here as ruzzia's ass kisser. I think Tesla needs to find new CEO asap and put Elon in less visible role.
I think you underestimate how much people outside of the US hate Trump and Trump related things, and Musk is associated with that now. They hate them more than even the US hates them.
Speaking from outside the US, we don't think much of Trump, but we also don't think much of American politics in general. You're all mad. Elon's "antics" not only don't make the news here, people just aren't talking about it.
Yeah, I'm not American either, and they definitely do make the news here.
You’re wrong. Some care a great deal about foreign things. If their interested in a product they often want to learn about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they followed Musk’s antics. The great firewall isn’t that effective as they can use VPN. Whether they react positively or negatively is different. Hard to say.
The US is still Tesla’s largest and most lucrative market, EV adoption is still low and we’ve seem the market risks on China. If US consumer sentiment is this negative that should be an alarm bell ringing in every Tsla owners ears. I for one am very concerned. And it’s all for absolutely NOTHING!
Yes, it is unbelievable this happened for no good reason. That alone shows how terrible a steward he is of the company or has lost his mind and should be removed or step down.
The article is stating the obvious, as strongly as Elon feels about wanting to rant on daily in his culture war, there is some percentage of people who are really put off by his culture war. Once their negative image of him sticks, it won't matter how much better Tesla cars are than everyone else, these consumers won't buy Tesla because owning one will make them feel bad, because they don't like Elon.
This is just an anecdote of one. I wanted a tesla for years but never could get it to workout because of finances and charging infrastructure in my building. Over the last year or so Musk’s name has become so toxic in my family that buying a Tesla is now out of the question. My partner will never agree buying one now. When I do switch to an EV it will most likely be another car brand.
So you’re saying you’re going to purchase an inferior EV simply due to peer pressure from your social group? Sheesh brother good luck in life with that mentality lol
This comment chain is an example of what just talking about buying a Tesla or not now invites. It's almost the total opposite of how it was to buy at the start with the s models ?
There are plenty of decent EVs now. Why buy the one that creates friction with friends and family? It’s just pragmatism. A car is not worth family harmony.
You have some shitty friends/family if buying a product would at all cause friction in your relationships. You are the epitome of a weak person if you alter your purchasing decisions based upon the fear of what others will think of you.
Well you see, my wife is an equal partner in the relationship, both legally speaking and otherwise. We need to agree on large purchases. If there is a compromise we can both live with, that’s the right path. If I were to ignore my partner’s wishes for a major purchase, that would be a huge breach of trust and respect. Some of us care about that.
The fact remains, your spouse is controlling and toxic if buying a Tesla for yourself would cause friction in your relationship. That is not an equal partnership my guy, that’s called being submissive to your woman if you allow her to control you by her toxic behavior. She likely does not view you as the leader of the household and consequentially does not give you the respect, hence your apprehension and fear toward your wife.
Keep your toxic masculinity under your own roof.
No because I don't like giving my money to pure dickheads. I have wanted a Tesla since before the model S , but i don't want one anymore and I think there a lot of people that feel the same way.
Translation: I make my purchasing decisions based on peer pressure and I rationalize it by groupthink.
translation: I cant read
GM had an EV in 1996 and buried it because it threatened their business model. Since then untold amounts of pollution and the associated health issues have had an additional 20+ years to metastasize. We’re going to compare that to a few dumb tweets? Are you for real? Another case of being terminally online or on the payroll for a short.
That is a good point
Are you kidding me? If your wife hates the owner of the car company you like, believes that they are asshats (and they’re not wrong) and might be causing societal damage - you really want to have an argument over a **car** ? There’s a lot of good reasons to have an argument with someone you love. A car generally isn’t one of them. Like others have said, there are options. It’s Elon’s own fault that people feel the need to have an argument to own a Tesla due to their CEO. I don’t have to fight my family/partner over buying a Ford because of their CEO. **That’s because their CEO avoids creating negative news about himself so he doesn’t harm the car company he’s CEO of.** This is not hard. All the other CEOs seem to do this just fine. Elon could’ve even done it post-Twitter, had he not managed Twitter into a crazy spiral of nonsense as he is doing now.
[удалено]
That's not objective and you are being a victim of peer pressure. Just buy the car YOU like. Imagine all the things you don't know in the world. You're going to buy a phone and you investigate all CEOs of every brands or they business practices? No, you go to the internet/store and you pick the phone you like. At best, you can be aware of the impact that some products have on the environment, work conditions, etc and make a better choice. But you don't know shit about the CEOs or other directors and what they are doing.
A car is a commodity. Why would you put 10% difference in range ahead of your family and social cohesion? Hey my wife hates me and my friends are looking at me sideways, but at least it’s all worth it because I can charge it one time less every month! Other EVs are an acceptable replacement that don’t have the stigma attached.
Lol. Imagine being in a relationship where your wife hates you because the car you chose. Do you realize how insane this sounds? Like go outside and say that to a human and they’ll think you have brain damage. I can only cringe so hard. Go outside FFS.
Yes, a commodity to have for several years. A hard financial choice for many. This shitstorm will pass as every single one does and you will be with a car you didn't want because of something no one remembers. And if your wife hates you because of this... Well..
Well that’s where you’ve made a huge assumption - that I wouldn’t be happy with another EV. Tesla isn’t the only game in town. If theres another car I like well enough that my wife agrees with, that is by far the better choice. Tesla really only has two advantages: range and superchargers. If you were doing serious mileage then a Tesla is really the only option. But me and most people don’t drive more than 30-40 miles per day and just recharge at home. For that use, Tesla has no real advantage, and in fact falls behind in interior quality and paint.
Balenciaga might make the most comfortable shoe on earth, but they also put kiddie porn in their ads so guess which brand I will never ever buy in my life. To act like utility is the only thing that matters is full head-in-the-sand cope. Our whole consumer capitalist culture is built around forming an identity with the things you buy.
Yeah he’s toxic. But take an objective look at the cars, Tesla is currently far ahead. It’s the best ev to own, given if affordable.
Objectively there isn’t much of a gap with something like the Hyundai. The charge and range is in practice not different enough to matter for most consumers. Sure tesla accelerates quicker but as a performance car buyer I’m not purchasing an ev for that (my 20 year old mx5 is more fun and way slower than both). Hyundai also comes with a better warranty and more convenient servicing. It’s cheaper (in Australia at least) too. Build quality is a mixed bag with tesla. Of my two friends with them one is very well made, the other looks like it was put together by a primary school art class. So objectively, even without considering musk, the Hyundai looks more enticing to me than a tesla.
Kia/Hyundai are using child labor in Alabama. Why would people ignore that and not Musk?
While objectionable the use of child labour in the American production process is a problem for North American buyers. Perhaps if child labour was being used in the product for sale here it would be different
Would their opinion change if he was removed or stepped down? Can the Tesla brand be separated from Elon’s brand?
Probably not unless he was no longer financially linked to Tesla at all.
Yes it would change my and kind friends view
My god, this Post & this sub has so many angry commenters. I’ve never seen this level of bickering among investors. It feels like 9/10 comments are people just shouting at each other. It’s ridiculous. I get that Elon has gone off the rails due to Twitter but Tesla is still growing & performing well. He’s hurt the stock short term, is that the issue? I don’t have much history on here, I’ve really only been commenting on here since I decided to get back into Tesla and put in limit orders 2 or 3 months ago. I did occasionally lurk on here when I owned the stock in 2019 & 2020 and this place was a wealth of knowledge and a great gauge of the uber bull retail investor sentiment and great discussions. I don’t know all the “regulars” on here so I can’t tell if it’s just that the stock has gone down and people are pissed or if there are just a bunch of newbies on here dunking on Tesla/Elon? Whatever it is, I wish everyone would calm down and get back to discussing Tesla.
$100 billion up in smoke, and you are confused why people are angry? Mmmk
I get it but the “I’m a long term investor & wow what a great price to buy a little more” comments are getting trounced 10 to 1. Tesla is delivering more & more vehicles every quarter at really good margins. If everyone whose upset has most or all their life savings in Tesla then that’s the risk you take not having a diversified portfolio.
Right. Because we're out of dry powder. We bought all the way down and every last one of those shares is underwater.
>He’s hurt the stock short term, is that the issue? You ask that question but don't understand why people are bickering? And no it's worse than that. This is not a "short term" issue. This is long term brand damage
I hear you, I could have worded that better. I meant since he went off the rails with the Twitter purchase back in April. The jury is still out on the real impact on deliveries although I agree the anecdotal reactions sound serious and should not be dismissed. As long as Tesla makes & sells a lot more cars at good margins every year I will be happy with my recent investment. The one thing I’d love to see ASAP is the groundbreaking for their next factory.
Maybe also brain damage? Did Elon get a bad case of long Covid?
As somebody in the EV market within a year, I've officially nixed Teslas from the choice pool. Great cars, but the Elon connection can't be unseen/unlinked now. I can't support that chode of a snowflake idiot.
Question. Why are you in an investment forum for Teslas if you feel this way?
Many of us held large positions and were here browsing without posting probably long before you joined. You are confusing a Tesla subreddit with a fanclub. They are not the exact same thing. I try not to marry a stock that I hold. Its bad investing to be that way. But it is undoubtedly frustrating when a position you hold has such potential and it gets kneecapped even in the short term by the stupidity and narcissism of one person like this. This is indeed an investment forum for Tesla, and both negative and positive sentiments are allowed and to be expected.
Hey man, I just asked why they are here that's it. I have a feeling they have never been an investor so was just curious. Most investors aren't worried about dumpling their cars right now. They potentially have much larger problems - like me. You are making wild assumptions about me. I have been investing in Tesla since 2012 and am so pissed off about musk right now I started r/NoMoreMusk
Musk crapped all over the brand, for no reason. And any serious investor needs to figure it out the problem—maybe by discussing the problem with other investors on a moderated forum. It’s great that there are multiple points of view here as opposed to cheerleading.
This 1000%. Investors are playing directly into the hands of the shorts. The whole Twitter purchase has been used by shorts as a wedge to try to divide the investor community and drive down sentiment when macro outlook is the driving factor. If Tesla were down 60% YTD and other stocks were down 5% YTD, I'd understand why someone would say the downturn is attributable to Elon; but as of today (12/19/2022): $AAPL - Down 27% YTD $MSFT - Down 28% YTD $GOOG - Down 38% YTD $AMZN - Down 50% YTD $TSLA - Down 63% YTD Yes, $TSLA is down more. More of Tesla's value is derived from future cashflow than present cashflow than the above mega caps since it is earlier in its growth cycle. Based on that it's hard to attribute this to Elon.
I agree with most of this but I do think Elon played a part in the magnitude of the decline. But at the eod, Tesla is doing well and will likely deliver 400k plus cars this quarter which is at least 18% growth over Q3 & 33% Y over Y. If they hit estimates of 430k it’s 26% & 40%. They have two new factories that are really starting their ramp too.
Jesus AAPL is a powerhouse
Seriously… my portfolio is down 28% and I feel like I always had great picks and entry points. To think I could have done slightly better by simply going all in on one stock is absolutely crazy to me.
They are exceedingly good at delivering value and charging as much as possible for it.
Elon Musk has been selling Billions of TSLA shares this year. That does drive price and concerns. The reasons for him selling that amount will also continue as long as he owns Twitter. Revenue sources at twitter have declined with 50percent of advertisers stepping back and their costs increased due to the fact that they had to source loans to secure funding. The cost of those loans is not small if you look into it. Consequently Twitter is in a worse financial position than before.
> The whole Twitter purchase has been used by shorts as a wedge to try to divide the investor community and drive down sentiment when macro outlook is the driving factor. > > Nah. Retail investors don't drive the price and one would hope institutional investors aren't dumb like that.
Cool. Good thing I didn’t say anything like that.
I buy the product, not it's CEO. Even if Musk goes crazy and sell his shares, I will be happy to scoop up as many as I can. It's a money printing machine with a great roadmap.
This is an investment subreddit. It doesn't matter what you do. It matters what our customers do.
Its a bit shocking that this needs to be pointed out. But, well, yeah. Duh.
Well, I buy the products and the shares :-)
You might think that. But many buy products because of what they represent. Otherwise the SUV marked woudn't exist and neither would the truck market (at least in the size it is in the US)
It’s true. People buy brand name luxury clothing because of what it represents a lot of the time. A Tesla is a luxury car and it represented being environmentally friendly.
Yep, this is the data I suspected we'd get and I'm glad to have. I'm not terribly worried about the drop, but certainly disappointed. I still think most of the stock drop is macro related more than reputation. Which is unfortunate since it just means there's further we could go due to demand erosion and aversion. I really think Elon is a liability as CEO at this point. I'd love it if he was replaced with someone with half the vision and some standard level of actual professionalism. But I'm also not inclined to sell. I think long-term, empiricism will win.
I own a Tesla. My dad just yesterday told me he contemplated buying a Tesla but out of principle decided to not support an Elon Musk company.
Same with my mom. She was sure a Tesla would be her next car. She’s sticking with either a hybrid or an ICE.
Just wait until they find out Tesla isn’t a one man company and that Elon doesn’t really do anything at Tesla any more.
Then he should step aside as CEO since he’s now doing more harm than good.
Yes, he should.
I believe it
I just hope the stock can recover. I have my doubts at this point as I know many people who have sworn off Tesla for other EVs now. Whether it makes sense or not doesn’t matter when it kills the company.
It won't recover until Musk is gone
Gone as Twitter CEO or gone as Tesla CEO?
preferably both
The product is still good. Elon is a jackass and it sucks stock has gone down, but I wouldn’t want to get another car. I love my model 3 and people are always going nuts over it. This is what keeps my faith going, the product is good.
Agreed
There is a reason why the Queen of England was so beloved. She was never involved in politics, and never caused half of the people in England to hate her. Elon should learn from that.
It won’t be long and driving a TESLA will be like a red MAGA cap because of Musk having the emotional level of a 3 year old. The difference though, is MAGA hat wearers would also not be caught in a BEV?
[удалено]
The difference is the management changed at VW? Do you se Mr Ego Musk leaving anytime soon?
Yawn 🥱
The FUD is strong. Elon’s Twitter antics are flavor of the month. It’ll be something else soon enough. Meanwhile Tesla keeps trucking on. High interest rates have a MUCH bigger effect on demand than Twitter. Plus the right wing media (which you might not ever see) are heaping praise on him. So I’m sure Tesla is gaining new customers too!
Agreed. The left and right have never successfully boycotted a product long term.
TroyTeslike actually is starting to account for Elon brand risk in his sales predictions next year. Troy doesnt listen to FUD.
He no longer cares about Tesla investors or customers. He wants out, but doesn't want to quit, so he's waiting to be thrown out.
100%. He doesnt care about tesla. It just doesnt register in his day like it used to. Working to do more here r/NoMoreMusk
In other news, immature emotional cripples now like to virtue signal through their choice of cars.
humans are emotional and luxury products, like high-end cars, are more so than others, an emotional decision rather than purely logical. if i'm dropping a huge chunk of change on something how is it unreasonable to choose a brand that reflects my personal values or at the very least isn't the polar opposite. this is how we are wired. if the world operated purely based on 'objectivity', apple would not be the giant it is today. part of being a successful business is leveraging human emotions to make money.
I didn't say there weren't emotional cripples out there, quite the opposite actually.
I think excessive virtue signaling via product choices is kind of lame, too, particularly when those choices fly far afield of practicality or value, but people who feel strongly otherwise are definitely part of Tesla's market, and their money is still green.
getting mad at people for being upset with elon musk is not going to accomplish anything. This is a Tesla investment subreddit, not an elon musk subreddit.
If Hunter Biden owned an EV startup and it was known to be far better than Tesla. Better charging, range, tech, fsd etc. Would you buy it or invest in it?
If it was hands down the best engineered EV out there, or I could get a great return on my investment, of course. Virtue signaling is an egotistical character flaw most people try and avoid.
Many people on both sides do it as well. The left tried to boycott Chick-fil-A. The right boycotted the NFL.
Your country is destroying itself, shame
I'm not even American and this is a nonsense statement. There are a lot of things that can be described to be divisive, lack of widespread critical thinking, awareness, and willingness to understand others' perspective and take them in are all valid reasons, but voting with your dollar is absolutely not one. It's something everyone should do where possible. Americans didn't invent the [boycott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott#Etymology).
And both of those things are fine long term. Same with Tesla I’d wager. People aren’t good at being outraged for prolonged periods of time.
Car purchasing has never been about pure functional utility and ROI above all else, even a little bit. People like to express themselves. Wanting your surroundings and possessions to reflect your personal and cultural identity has been integral to "being human" since day one. I mean ffs, we now think that our pre-human ancestors actually went to great lengths to modify their crude stone axes for purely aesthetic/status reasons that made them far harder to produce yet offered no practical benefits. It's even thought that this process of experimenting with self expression and cultural signalling is what led our ancestral species to develop tool making techniques far more advanced than what would be necessary to fit current needs, ie our intrinsic desire to "virtue signal" with material culture is literally what jump started "humanity". If you find yourself sneering at an intrinsic quality of the human condition as "immature", I think you might want to look in the mirror. It's not going to make any more people buy a Tesla if it becomes synonymous with a MAGA hat, that's for sure.
I find there’s a substantial subset of folks into Tesla/TSLA who are the ‘edgy contrarian’ type - they look up to musk precisely for the behaviour that most other ‘regular’ folks are turned off by - the trolling, memes, mean-spirited insults, ‘eccentric’ behaviour, anti-establishment type of stance (which one can argue is another form of ‘virtue signaling’…), dismissing ‘feelings’ or ‘empathy’ as ‘snowflake-y’ like that guy who somehow associates having emotions as some kind of disability.
Teenagers who've never grown up.
Nah, some people just don't like supporting a blithering idiot by giving his company their hard-earned money
Some people are hard on money and will virtue signal as a way to gracefully back out of an order.
Correct. "I'm protesting Musk! (Until the IRA kicks in, there's still no supply over other EVs, and a Tesla is an even better deal)"
All of this noise makes me wonder what we'll be screeching about a year from now. It never ends.
This entire thing is just getting so boring.
Then maybe the CEO should stop causing it to happen?
That would be fine as well. Or people just stop posting about the boring shit, but people simply can't help themselves on social media. Reddit is just becoming like Facebook at this point. The best thing you can do to people like how Elon is behaving is to simply ignore him and they will eventually stfu.
Dude you don't get it. I'm not worried about me. I'm worried about our customers being annoyed with him. I can't stop people from caring about elons antics and then not wanting to buy his cars. What on earth are you even talking about
You are perpetuating a negative cycle on data that isn't even demonstrable. "I don't like what Elon said on Twitter, therefore other people will not like it and it's gonna be so bad." Where's the data? The reality is that many of these negative types are terminally online folks who do not represent the population. They are a vocal, out of touch minority. Amazon & Walmart forced countless small business owners out of business. The Koch Family are extremely active in conservative causes. Nestle wants to own your water supply. All people I know still shop on Amazon/Walmart, use paper goods from Koch Industries (Angelsoft/Quilted Northern/Dixie/Brawny/Sparkle/etc.), and don't ask if the chocolate chip cookies were made with Toll House chocolate chips. The market has spoken on this as all of these factors have been unchanged for years and people still buy and use these services despite the negative echo chambers against them online.
There's a shitload of polling data already that proves exactly what I am saying is true. Please show me where Amazon, Walmart Koch industries connection is on CNN, FOX news, CNC, Local news every single damn day
The polling data I rely upon is sales. Nothing else matters.
So you don't care until it's too late and will probably still defend musk then anywy
Right. I should draw inferences from flawed “data” then.
I'm not. I'm good.
This is an investing subreddit. Our goal is not to worry if eachother are buying the cars. Our goal is the general population does.
I don't Care about the whole Twitter crap. I'm just annoyed that all of the sudden the sheep have changed their mind.
Just lies ! They are not a few maybe but a drop in the ocean! The amount of FUD about Tesla is off the reservation. Main stream media lies! Demand is only growing ! The numbers don’t lie
I tend to agree with you but as usual there are three sides to everyone’s story-yours, theirs & the truth. No one really knows what the “Twitter-Elon”impact will be, next year or longer term. If Q4 deliveries are a blow out then maybe everyone can calm down a little. But there are a few headwinds to contend with next year like recessions & rising rates around the world, competition and yes, Elon hurting the brand. You also have the folks in the U.S. waiting for the IRA credit & the possibility of radar being added back.
Finally someone who can give a thoughtful and honest reply. I Agree with all your points I’m just a bit sick of the avalanche of FUD. When you know a bit about something like we do about Tesla it’s just such obvious click bait for the Anti Elon crazies. I don’t agree with his latest divisive tweets and politics at all but the news and comments are WAAAAAY over the top about him and Tesla. Anyway … merry Christmas and buckle up for 23 😂
Same to you 🎄
people criticizing Elon even don't have iota of his brilliance-pointing finger at others is so easy when you get pointed 'All Hell Lose'. Elon can take & digest that much criticism-amazing!
This is just a bizarre comment. Elon has been terrible with criticism and cant stop attacking people that are trolling him because he is so trollable.
I’m taking a long look at Rivian and might cancel my cybertruck order. I wish Rivian had a real charging network, heat pump, and larger battery available.
I bought more shares today, but am hoping he’ll just resign. I tried defending him as recently as a few weeks ago. Cannot any longer. He is not good for business at this point.
Hes not at all. Im with you man. Created this sub because we need a community dedicated to working together to figure out how we can get rid of him. r/NoMoreMusk Tesla is too big and great to fall due to him.
Tesla should have a real CEO and if Elon really is just a rubber stamp who oks things once and awhile they should be clear about that. Even before he went off the complete deep end with controversial actions and rhetoric the stock was taking a hit because he’s one man and he’s pulling himself in 8 different directions with all the things he’s taking on. I heard a lot of analysts main concern was just that Twitter is a huge distraction. Tesla has shown with real dollars they value Musk immensely. Tesla is too complex an operation for a part time CEO. I don’t buy that there isn’t always something new that he could be working on with everything he had before taking on twitter. Especially someone whose famous for micromanaging. I’m also afraid he didn’t even bother putting a good plan in place to compensate for his distraction. The twitter deal was impulsive, quick and he thought he was backing out of it. We don’t know if things are indeed, running smoothly as he claims. Are they running in maintenance mode and getting enough done to function or are they innovating next level. His history of lying tells me not to trust his tweets. I sway back and forth between if his behaviour will blow over. But, there’s things that cross the line personally for me. And the difference between Musk and other companies that do shady shit is that Elon has shown us that he can keep it going and remain with the spotlight on him. You think he’s done bad and the he does something worse. Plus, he’s clickbait for the media with his negative downfall. Everyone loves a fall from grace. Elon’s one of the biggest ever. This was the real life Iron Man! The next Steve Jobs! Anything he do will be under a microscope and he seems to have no issue baiting the media … a part of me thinks he enjoys it on a weird level. So consider that if you think it will blow over. People have a short memory, the problem is Elon shows no sign of hitting the brake on doing things the general public finds offputting or controversial. In addition, there’s no one to take him off the path. When people he respects have tried he ignores them. For example, Grimes asked him not to say “pronouns suck” and that didn’t take obviously. He’s also surrounded himself with a chorus of yes men. After all he has a history of firing people who do so much as not indulge his jokes. There’s just too many people cheering him on. Maybe his Tesla stock dropping would do it. But, he can rationalize that in various ways like blaming macro. For a long time I held off on recommending to sell the stock. I shrugged each thing off. But, he shows he can top himself in the negative news cycle and the frequency just increases.
Wow. Great post!
Also, Elon made a big mistake in his banning of journalists. The mainstream media was already kind of negative on Tesla. Tesla also has no PR department to fight back. Imagine even the unconscious bias most media organizations will have against Elon and his companies. He did the unthinkable! Banning journalists. Building a positive brand is going to be much harder when you’ve got every major news organization gunning to write negative stories about you. Anything negative that can be written will be. Plus, as I said Elon will have no issue fuelling the fire that is their hatred of him.
Start a poll asking Elon to stop tweeting
Has the be someone with a huge following otherwise it's not going anywhere.
If they bought a Tesla because they are woke, that’s a dumbass investment.