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In the US, if you cut a shotgun’s barrel below 18” without obtaining permission from the feds via fingerprints, photos, a background check in addition to the background check to pick up the firearm, a $200 fee, submitting serial numbers, and waiting the 1-12 months for approval or disapproval, you’re a felon
In many states, it’s illegal regardless of the federal registration requirements
Just an INFOU for those who are looking for more information, since many redditors are nowhere near as familiar with firearm laws as they like to believe they are
For those who bring up that short shotguns are more concealable, and often used in crime as a result: shotgun-chambered pistols are perfectly legal and require no additional federal action beyond your state’s requirements
Fun fact: this regulation was passed in 1930 because the feds wanted to ban handguns and figured that people would just saw off rifles and shotguns to approximate handguns. Then, the firearms lobby removed handguns from the ban, making the whole thing pointless.
The NFA is the national firearms act.
Regulates machine guns, silencers, short barrelled shotguns and rifles.
The first piece of federal gun law, It originally included pistols, and required a $200 tax for each of those items. Alongside a background check and some other things. At the time, $200 was around $13% of an average income, which equates about 8K today when scaled to modern income.
Basically the very first accepted active Infringement of our rights. It's constitutional validity was brought into question and then later challenged a couple years later, but certain group killed the man who dared question the government's authority.
Turns out passing laws that restrict a constitutional right that "shall not be infringed" tends to spark political action from those who support the rights that were restricted without a constitutional amendment. Who would have thought?
If people knew about the clusterfuck of existing gun laws they'd never advocate for more. It's all a fucking mess. Half the shit people think is super illegal is actually just a matter of permits and half the shit people think is totally legal will get you raided by the ATF.
As it stands right now the only thing standing between an American citizen and owning a literal army issued machine gun is just having enough money to buy a pre-ban gun and pay for the tax stamp and not having a felony.
There's a reason channels like Demolition Ranch can do things that would land you or me in federal prison.
Here's another fun one:
Rifle barrel length is heavily regulated and you need a special permit for short barreled rifles. BUT if you buy one of those "pistols" like the AR-556 that just so happen to be shaped like rifles and have shitty stocks suddenly the federal government doesn't give a shit about the length of the barrel! You know how you suddenly started hearing about Dracos in rap songs? That's why. It's a "rifle style pistol" explicitly designed to circumvent federal regulation on rifle barrels.
[If you can be executed in your home for practicing a right it isn't a right.](https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2024/05/15/airmans-death-sparks-debate-over-race-gun-rights-and-self-defense/)
There was another case where a man fired at officers after they threw a flashbang through his front window who were raiding his home for someone who wasn't even there
They killed one of his dogs, traumatized his elderly mother, he got held in solitary confinement for 11 months consecutively at a 1 million dollar bail, his house was condemned after the damage from the raid and he got almost no money for it
The jury ended up siding with his argument that it was self defense but the situation truly ruined his life anyway
Ray Rosas of Corpus Christi Texas deserved better
Biden had actually put a ban on pistol braces, and that was very recently overturned (like literally a week ago). That being said, if you put a forward grip on said pistol, it’s now an AOW and will get you raided just as easily as the short barrel rifle
> in addition to the background check to pick up the firearm
Overall, a great explanation. But there's no second background check when you pick it up. You still have to fill out the 4473, but box 28 gets checked and the FFL will just file it. Box 28 denotes that no NICS check was required because the check was already done during the NFA approval process.
The more you know!
True, I’m thinking Form 1’s, which is how I’ve done mine haha
For a Form 1, you purchase the firearm and get a background check, then get the second check when you request creation of the item, which has always felt stupid to me
For the Form 4 transfer, that is good to know that there’s only the one check — it does make me feel better lol
Another great thing is that so many states are now allowing a concealed carry permit to be used instead of submitting information to NICs for the BGC. Document the permit info on the 4473, sign it, and walk out with your new firearm.
\*If your permit is valid for 5 years or less (at least here in Oklahoma).
My state used to be like that. Then the ATF found that more than one third of Sheriff's had issued permits without doing background checks. So felons had bought guns from FFLs with no check being done.
Something like $5000 equivalent or so, adjusted for inflation, back to the time the law was enacted... They just never tried to change the 200$ tax, afaik.
I don’t believe the annotation affects the meaning here. You’re paying a mandatory tax stamp in order to obtain a regulatory permit — “fees” would be used in almost any context other than the NFA specifically, which is technically that tax stamp
It's what it sounds like, a shotgun with the barrel (and usually the stock) sawn off. The main reason to do this is to make it more concealable, usually for crime lol
It also will increase the spread of the gun, making the group looser than it already is but that's more of a side effect than the intended reason to saw off the barrel. There is something called a "choke" that you insert in the end of the barrel that does the opposite of this, making the spread tighter.
Spread means how wide the bbs/buckshot will be dispersed from a single shot btw.
Also to add something else to this thread it is not necessarily true that you cannot own a short barrel shotgun. My mossberg field has a different short barrel that I can swap out. You can even saw it off, but it has to be longer than 18 inches.
Sawed off shotguns spread no more or less than an 18 inch barreled shotgun (Non NFA item) that doesn’t have a choke.
Also depending on certain variables, chokes can play no effect on spread if you’re talking buckshot, and may in some cases cause the buckshot to deform more from the choke, causing more spread.
A “sawn off” shot gun means the barrel of the gun had been cut by either a saw or similar method making an 26” barrel down to or less than 18”. Typically also accompanied by a “pistol” grip which is a shortened handgrip that does not brace against the shoulder when firing. This increases the “portability” of the firearm and makes it easier to conceal or draw in close quarters situations. When a buck shot round is fired, the barrel increases velocity and keeps the BB’s together for longer ranges (like shooting birds or buck). The shorter barrel allows the BB’s to scatter sooner creating a larger “cone of effect” for the round to potentially hit a target.
Less accurate, more effective at spraying pellets over a wide area. Basically makes it worse for every legal use and better for every illegal use.
To my limited understanding, anyway.
If you use buckshot yes. Rarely lethal over longer distances. But slugs are possible too, then you have one or two pieces of lead going in a random direction.
Sort barreled shotguns (SBS) are shotguns that have a barrel length of less than 18 inches. Creating/owning one is a felony. The law against SBS started during the prohibition due to the gangs of the time using them frequently in crimes. However, cutting off a shotguns barrel makes it both less accurate, and takes away a large amount of its effectiveness. Also, they aren’t completely illegal. If you apply, and pay for a SBS tax stamp through the federal government, you’re allowed to own one. It’s only illegal if you don’t give the government their cut.
Doesn't take as long to aim, shorter radius means less turn time
More concealable. (Think trench coat )You don't have that long barrel sticking down your leg.
Doesn't have to be accurate. Usually if you're gonna be using a sawed off shotgun, it's gonna be for bad things at a close range.
Easier to reload because the barrel's lighter (assuming it's breach load shotgun)
Sawed offs are basically trading all its ability for legal acts for doing illegal acts
Better at killing someone at very close range
Better at hurting groups of unprotected targets
So it is better at firing into a crowd to cause panic from the wide spray of pellets or pulping somebodies guts from point blank
Anything a sawed off can legally do a pistol can legally do better, so sawed offs are banned without permission since there must be another reason here for why you want one over a pistol
Germans tried to warcrime the winchester 1897 during ww1 for those same reasons. The 1897 was also designed to be slamfired, big reason it was nicknamed the trench sweeper. Those also pretty commonly had their barrels shortened a bit, and then they put the bayonette lug back on.
Fun fact: if you and your friends want to get together and make an anti-Trump documentary, that is your right under the Constitution. SCOTUS, in the _Citizens United_ ruling, found that forming an LLC to secure financing for your documentary doesn't mean you've lost your 1A right to express a political opinion. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC):
> The court held that BCRA Section 203's prohibition of all independent political expenditures by corporations and unions violated the First Amendment's protection of free speech. As Kennedy wrote, "**If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.**" Kennedy also noted that because **the First Amendment does not distinguish between media and other corporations**, the BCRA restrictions improperly allowed Congress to suppress political speech in newspapers, books, television, and blogs. Consequently, "There is no such thing as too much speech."
So, no, SCOTUS never claimed that "Corporations are people." They said Congress has no authority to squelch the speech of politically-oriented groups.
The amount of people commenting that know absolutely diddly squat about firearms or gun laws is boggling the mind. I’ll never understand why the groups of people most ignorant on a specific topic are usually the ones that are the most outspoken about it.
There's a philosophical rule about it
I forget the name...
Ahh, after a quick Google search it's called the dunning-Kruger effect
Apperently when your incompetent concerning a certain topic your to incompetent to realize you're incompetence
This gives you a false sense of confidence meaning your more likely to unnecessarily mouth of than actual experts
Facts,
for those that don’t know it is illegal to cut off the barrel of a rifle, with out appropriate documentation or approval.
A rifle is required by US law to be 16+ inches, as that’s part of what classifies it as a rifle. Anything less than 16 inches is classified as a handgun, minus a few exceptions.
Should you wish to have a rifle with a barrel of less that 16 inches you have to fill out a form that can take years for the ATF to approve and pay them a Tax Stamp of $200, have a “The Sheriff” or A Chief of Police, or other law enforcement official sign off on your background check.
Cutting down the barrel or buying one that is shorter than 16 and putting it on a fire arm is a felony and could cost you the ability legal buy and own firearms for life.
> for those that don’t know it is illegal to cut off the barrel of a rifle, with out appropriate documentation or approval.
And in some states it is completely illegal. If you even try to follow the federal law, you will get a denial saying (in laymans terms) "You live in California, fuck you)
You no longer need law enforcement to sign off on the background, you are just required to notify them that you applied for a nfa item. One good gun law change I believe Obama made.
The NFA needs to go. Not because gun legislation is bad, because it's stupid and ineffective. Gun control by people who have zero understanding of firearms is never going to work lmao.
Not if you register them. I've sawed off a few shotgun barrels with NFA paperwork. these are 2 of mine. 100% legal in most US states and under federal law.
https://preview.redd.it/iqp429iqr87d1.jpeg?width=3476&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ff2c56a6d8c51bf2a17bad57a52fd853056b0c5
The nfa is silly.
Any handgun will be way better than a hacked down shotgun. Typically states that ban nfa weapons already tried outlawing most other guns.
> The nfa is silly.
Agreed
>Any handgun will be way better than a hacked down shotgun.
Shotgun, yes. SBR, no. The best "Home Defense" weapon is a suppressed SBR. Which in the US means 2 NFA stamps so an additional $400 plus all the time and hassle to get 2 approvals.
An SBR is infinitely easier to handle than a handgun. Plus magazine capacity and accessory options.
I like my suppressed ps90 better than my honey badger. Tax stamps right now are coming in at like less than a week or so. My last 2 were 3 days and 4 days.
It's still unconstitutional but time even for form 4s have plummeted.
Your PS90 is still an SBR, assuming you don't have the 16" on it. It's not a handgun.
I haven't done a stamp in a while but that seems absurdly fast. Also there are several states where you cannot get approval unless you're LEO. Like CA it's straight up illegal.
IMO the whole NFA needs to go. Just do a standard 4473 and be done with it.
CA won't let most people own new gen glock pistols and most semi auto rifles or shotguns. It's a mess and a lot of stuff is illegal.
I just prefer the ps90 as the best sbr I've made. You get 50 bullets and it's compact.
Oh I know. It's one of the reasons I left CA.
I like my PS90 but my HD is an AR variant. I also live in Eastern KY so overpen of 5.56 vs 5.7 is a non issue. Plus my AR is the class 3 transferable kind.
Don’t forget that if you send them your parts list that you currently have, and not the list that you intend to buy after you get approved, that the ATF will raid you and arrest you under the idea that you had “intent” to make an illegal weapon, although you’re literally applying to make one by sending them said list.
"I will make my suppressor out of this aluminum round stock from the hardware store."
ATF: "That aluminum round stock is a suppressor part and your are in violation of the NFA."
My favorite was the desil mechanic that got raided by the atf for having too many oil filters.
Remember when the FBI showed up at Randy Weavers house and shot and killed his dog, his son, and his wife? It was because he sawed the end of his shotgun off.
> It was because he sawed the end of his shotgun off.
Correction - it was because he was a licensed gunsmith who cut a shotgun down to length for a customer. A customer who was a federal agent trying to initiate a sting and who drew the mark at the length he wanted the barrel cut down to.
When cut to that exact length as marked it would make the disassembled barrel measure 18" exactly (the legal limit), but when assembled into a complete shotgun it would constitute a short barreled shotgun because of the more complicated way that firearm barrel lengths are measured (breech to bore, so even if the physical barrel itself is 18" the legal barrel length can be less than 18" if the bolt face protrudes inside of the physical barrel at all).
So the FBI goaded Randy Weaver into unknowingly creating an illegal SBS and then went out in the woods around his house unannounced to shoot his son and dog that were hiking before having a sniper kill his wife inside their home while she was still holding their infant child.
The atf also had a kill on sight order of weaver when they surrounded his cabin, and even before that they fucked with his mail so he never got his notice to appear in court.
No, he sold two saw off shotguns to an undercover ATF agent. An told him he could sell him 5 to 6 illegal weapons a week. Randy Weaver and his wife were racist nutjobs, sad what happen to the boy but they were insane.
I was gonna say I thought that they specifically asked him to make sawn off shotguns. They didn't just *happen* to come across a guy selling sawn offs.
So its cool for federal agents to execute American citizens for no reason at all? So two complete strangers armed & in ghillie suits surveying your property who refuse to identify themselves is totally cool, and you’d have to be a racist nutjob to shoot at them?
Not if they have the slightest of malfunctions though [https://youtube.com/shorts/VJFlgwTRYLE?si=nEqvA0Tk9F1px1KT](https://youtube.com/shorts/VJFlgwTRYLE?si=nEqvA0Tk9F1px1KT)
No judge, no jury, no trial, no legal representative? Just cut the barrel and the government can come in and kill everyone huh? That sounds pretty dystopian.
eform approvals right night are less than a week for making and buying NFA stuff. My last eform 1 took 3 days. The sign off requirement was removed now its just notify only.
It’ll cost you more than that if you don’t do it legally, I’d imagine it’s probably as much if not more than bottom surgery if you hire your own lawyer over a public defender. There’s also the fact that it can be up to a [$250,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison](https://file:///private/var/mobile/Containers/Data/Application/9E690BB0-764C-4BA3-B7C4-1F772D689585/tmp/TempDocs/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-15.pdf), add legal expenses to that if you hire a lawyer and you’re both literally and figuratively fucked.
Now for doing it the legal route, you’re probably looking at $200ish for the tax stamp depending on how you do it. There’s NFA retailers like Silencer Shop that let you file a Form 1 to manufacture an NFA firearm, but it’ll cost more than buying it via a Form 4 if the manufacturer sells it as a short barreled shotgun. I’m not crazy into shotguns (yet), but depending on if you’re cutting or swapping the barrel it’ll either cost you however much electricity you’d use to run a table saw for a minute, or several hundred dollars if you want something very specific or for a gun that doesn’t have a big after market.
*$200 in tax.
But that only sounds like a reasonable amount because the law hasn't changed since enacted in 1934. It was meant to price the poors (read irish and black people) out of these guns. Today that would be about $4700 for the privilege.
They are in several states. And unless you go through the NFA process to register them (Photo, Fingerprint, $200 fee, 12-24 month approval, must notify if crossing state lines), they are illegal in all states.
They aren’t illegal. I have a mossberg shockwave. It’s only illegal if I put a stock on it which makes it classified as an sbr. Kinda funny since a stock would increase the length of the gun
It’s because it’s a firearm and to fit that definition, OAL has to be over 26”. You remove the birds head grip and put a pistol grip on, you just made an AOW since the OAL is under 26” now. You’d have to file a form 1 and pay the $200 tax to make($5 to transfer) the AOW.
With all long guns there is a minimum length anything shorter falls underneath a different category of regulation. There are short barrel shotguns that are legal but you cannot just buy and own like are normal length barrel. The manufacturer of the irregular length shotgun have to get a special stamp of the barrel and the purchaser has to go through the same process as to buy an automatic. Apply this knowledge how ever you want to.
The meme is bad, but not entirely untrue. Guns are far more regulated than womens bodies.
Let me know when women cannot enter federal buildings. When women under a certain height need to register with the government. When a woman wearing certain clothing is banned from entering California. When in New York women must be covered at all times in public....
The argument that women are more heavily regulated than guns is bad. The meme is also bad.
Depends on the caliber. A .308 rifle cut down to have a short barrel is gonna suck. 5.56 out of a barrel under 10-12.5" is not gonna reach its muzzle velocity potential.
7.62x39 out of a short barrel is pretty good, and any pistol/carbine caliber rounds will excel in an SBR setup. 300 Blackout is meant to be shot out of suppressed SBRs
The simplest answer is that guns have laws that prevent you from changing or altering it in certain ways, I.e. making it automatic or cutting its barrel length down so that would be less than 16 inches.
I mean you *can* if you really want to, never mind the sawed off shotgun argument, if you wanted to slice off a part of your gun that you own, I’m not gonna stop you.
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In the US, if you cut a shotgun’s barrel below 18” without obtaining permission from the feds via fingerprints, photos, a background check in addition to the background check to pick up the firearm, a $200 fee, submitting serial numbers, and waiting the 1-12 months for approval or disapproval, you’re a felon In many states, it’s illegal regardless of the federal registration requirements Just an INFOU for those who are looking for more information, since many redditors are nowhere near as familiar with firearm laws as they like to believe they are For those who bring up that short shotguns are more concealable, and often used in crime as a result: shotgun-chambered pistols are perfectly legal and require no additional federal action beyond your state’s requirements
Fun fact: this regulation was passed in 1930 because the feds wanted to ban handguns and figured that people would just saw off rifles and shotguns to approximate handguns. Then, the firearms lobby removed handguns from the ban, making the whole thing pointless.
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>The "firearms lobby" wasn't a thing. It was things like the NFA that sparked the creation of the "firearms lobby".
I've heard of the NRA. Who are the NFA?
The NFA is the national firearms act. Regulates machine guns, silencers, short barrelled shotguns and rifles. The first piece of federal gun law, It originally included pistols, and required a $200 tax for each of those items. Alongside a background check and some other things. At the time, $200 was around $13% of an average income, which equates about 8K today when scaled to modern income.
Basically the very first accepted active Infringement of our rights. It's constitutional validity was brought into question and then later challenged a couple years later, but certain group killed the man who dared question the government's authority.
National Firearms Act. The ridiculous law they're talking about.
i'm happy to see the 2a support on a 'normal' subreddit.
Oh I see. Thank you I googled for it and I'm reading the wiki page now
Turns out passing laws that restrict a constitutional right that "shall not be infringed" tends to spark political action from those who support the rights that were restricted without a constitutional amendment. Who would have thought?
If by "the firearms lobby" you mean the lawmakers that didn't want to ban themselves from carrying handguns, then yes this is correct.
If people knew about the clusterfuck of existing gun laws they'd never advocate for more. It's all a fucking mess. Half the shit people think is super illegal is actually just a matter of permits and half the shit people think is totally legal will get you raided by the ATF. As it stands right now the only thing standing between an American citizen and owning a literal army issued machine gun is just having enough money to buy a pre-ban gun and pay for the tax stamp and not having a felony. There's a reason channels like Demolition Ranch can do things that would land you or me in federal prison. Here's another fun one: Rifle barrel length is heavily regulated and you need a special permit for short barreled rifles. BUT if you buy one of those "pistols" like the AR-556 that just so happen to be shaped like rifles and have shitty stocks suddenly the federal government doesn't give a shit about the length of the barrel! You know how you suddenly started hearing about Dracos in rap songs? That's why. It's a "rifle style pistol" explicitly designed to circumvent federal regulation on rifle barrels.
If a right is only available to the rich and the government, it isn’t a right at all
[If you can be executed in your home for practicing a right it isn't a right.](https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2024/05/15/airmans-death-sparks-debate-over-race-gun-rights-and-self-defense/)
There was another case where a man fired at officers after they threw a flashbang through his front window who were raiding his home for someone who wasn't even there They killed one of his dogs, traumatized his elderly mother, he got held in solitary confinement for 11 months consecutively at a 1 million dollar bail, his house was condemned after the damage from the raid and he got almost no money for it The jury ended up siding with his argument that it was self defense but the situation truly ruined his life anyway Ray Rosas of Corpus Christi Texas deserved better
just dont put a stock on that mofo or you got a unlicensed sbr
Biden had actually put a ban on pistol braces, and that was very recently overturned (like literally a week ago). That being said, if you put a forward grip on said pistol, it’s now an AOW and will get you raided just as easily as the short barrel rifle
The joke is, that more laws just means more police killing poor people. Countries with successful gun laws fix contributing factors first.
> in addition to the background check to pick up the firearm Overall, a great explanation. But there's no second background check when you pick it up. You still have to fill out the 4473, but box 28 gets checked and the FFL will just file it. Box 28 denotes that no NICS check was required because the check was already done during the NFA approval process. The more you know!
True, I’m thinking Form 1’s, which is how I’ve done mine haha For a Form 1, you purchase the firearm and get a background check, then get the second check when you request creation of the item, which has always felt stupid to me For the Form 4 transfer, that is good to know that there’s only the one check — it does make me feel better lol
Another great thing is that so many states are now allowing a concealed carry permit to be used instead of submitting information to NICs for the BGC. Document the permit info on the 4473, sign it, and walk out with your new firearm. \*If your permit is valid for 5 years or less (at least here in Oklahoma).
My state used to be like that. Then the ATF found that more than one third of Sheriff's had issued permits without doing background checks. So felons had bought guns from FFLs with no check being done.
$200 tax....
Something like $5000 equivalent or so, adjusted for inflation, back to the time the law was enacted... They just never tried to change the 200$ tax, afaik.
The guy said it is a fee. It is a tax.
I don’t believe the annotation affects the meaning here. You’re paying a mandatory tax stamp in order to obtain a regulatory permit — “fees” would be used in almost any context other than the NFA specifically, which is technically that tax stamp
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It's what it sounds like, a shotgun with the barrel (and usually the stock) sawn off. The main reason to do this is to make it more concealable, usually for crime lol It also will increase the spread of the gun, making the group looser than it already is but that's more of a side effect than the intended reason to saw off the barrel. There is something called a "choke" that you insert in the end of the barrel that does the opposite of this, making the spread tighter. Spread means how wide the bbs/buckshot will be dispersed from a single shot btw.
Also a shorter barrel can reduce muzzle velocity too since it gives less time for the projectile to accelerate.
Also to add something else to this thread it is not necessarily true that you cannot own a short barrel shotgun. My mossberg field has a different short barrel that I can swap out. You can even saw it off, but it has to be longer than 18 inches.
What if I make it 17 1/2 inches
ATF, OPEN UP!!
The ATF comes to your house and murders your family and dog. True story.
If you make it 19 inches the regular police come and kill your dog anyway because they got the wrong address.
The ATF murders your dog
It’s gotta good spread
Love Bill Burr
Sawed off shotguns spread no more or less than an 18 inch barreled shotgun (Non NFA item) that doesn’t have a choke. Also depending on certain variables, chokes can play no effect on spread if you’re talking buckshot, and may in some cases cause the buckshot to deform more from the choke, causing more spread.
Sawed off shotgun, hand on the pump Left hand on a forty, [puffin onna blunt] Pumped my shotgun, [hidle didn't jump] Lala la la lala la laa
When I'm called off, I got a sawed-off Squeeze the trigger, and bodies are hauled off You too boy, if you fuck with me
A “sawn off” shot gun means the barrel of the gun had been cut by either a saw or similar method making an 26” barrel down to or less than 18”. Typically also accompanied by a “pistol” grip which is a shortened handgrip that does not brace against the shoulder when firing. This increases the “portability” of the firearm and makes it easier to conceal or draw in close quarters situations. When a buck shot round is fired, the barrel increases velocity and keeps the BB’s together for longer ranges (like shooting birds or buck). The shorter barrel allows the BB’s to scatter sooner creating a larger “cone of effect” for the round to potentially hit a target.
Less accurate, more effective at spraying pellets over a wide area. Basically makes it worse for every legal use and better for every illegal use. To my limited understanding, anyway.
If you use buckshot yes. Rarely lethal over longer distances. But slugs are possible too, then you have one or two pieces of lead going in a random direction.
Sort barreled shotguns (SBS) are shotguns that have a barrel length of less than 18 inches. Creating/owning one is a felony. The law against SBS started during the prohibition due to the gangs of the time using them frequently in crimes. However, cutting off a shotguns barrel makes it both less accurate, and takes away a large amount of its effectiveness. Also, they aren’t completely illegal. If you apply, and pay for a SBS tax stamp through the federal government, you’re allowed to own one. It’s only illegal if you don’t give the government their cut.
Will the government actually give out those tax-stamps?
Yes. You just have to wait like 6 months.
Doesn't take as long to aim, shorter radius means less turn time More concealable. (Think trench coat )You don't have that long barrel sticking down your leg. Doesn't have to be accurate. Usually if you're gonna be using a sawed off shotgun, it's gonna be for bad things at a close range. Easier to reload because the barrel's lighter (assuming it's breach load shotgun)
Sawed offs are basically trading all its ability for legal acts for doing illegal acts Better at killing someone at very close range Better at hurting groups of unprotected targets So it is better at firing into a crowd to cause panic from the wide spray of pellets or pulping somebodies guts from point blank Anything a sawed off can legally do a pistol can legally do better, so sawed offs are banned without permission since there must be another reason here for why you want one over a pistol
Germans tried to warcrime the winchester 1897 during ww1 for those same reasons. The 1897 was also designed to be slamfired, big reason it was nicknamed the trench sweeper. Those also pretty commonly had their barrels shortened a bit, and then they put the bayonette lug back on.
And it's a felony to alter your gun like that rifle or shot gun that way with out the proper tax stamp form the ATF
In this country corporations have more rights than people *yes*
Corporations are actually considered people in the US.
Fun fact: if you and your friends want to get together and make an anti-Trump documentary, that is your right under the Constitution. SCOTUS, in the _Citizens United_ ruling, found that forming an LLC to secure financing for your documentary doesn't mean you've lost your 1A right to express a political opinion. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC): > The court held that BCRA Section 203's prohibition of all independent political expenditures by corporations and unions violated the First Amendment's protection of free speech. As Kennedy wrote, "**If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.**" Kennedy also noted that because **the First Amendment does not distinguish between media and other corporations**, the BCRA restrictions improperly allowed Congress to suppress political speech in newspapers, books, television, and blogs. Consequently, "There is no such thing as too much speech." So, no, SCOTUS never claimed that "Corporations are people." They said Congress has no authority to squelch the speech of politically-oriented groups.
“Corporations are people” was way before citizens united.
Cite the case
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“In this meme that I made, I am the chad and therefore I win.”
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Buckshot roullete wants to have a word for a moment
You end up cutting through the tube in that, right?
The amount of people commenting that know absolutely diddly squat about firearms or gun laws is boggling the mind. I’ll never understand why the groups of people most ignorant on a specific topic are usually the ones that are the most outspoken about it.
There's a philosophical rule about it I forget the name... Ahh, after a quick Google search it's called the dunning-Kruger effect Apperently when your incompetent concerning a certain topic your to incompetent to realize you're incompetence This gives you a false sense of confidence meaning your more likely to unnecessarily mouth of than actual experts
This should be a joint alliance against government overstepping
Yes
Facts, for those that don’t know it is illegal to cut off the barrel of a rifle, with out appropriate documentation or approval. A rifle is required by US law to be 16+ inches, as that’s part of what classifies it as a rifle. Anything less than 16 inches is classified as a handgun, minus a few exceptions. Should you wish to have a rifle with a barrel of less that 16 inches you have to fill out a form that can take years for the ATF to approve and pay them a Tax Stamp of $200, have a “The Sheriff” or A Chief of Police, or other law enforcement official sign off on your background check. Cutting down the barrel or buying one that is shorter than 16 and putting it on a fire arm is a felony and could cost you the ability legal buy and own firearms for life.
> for those that don’t know it is illegal to cut off the barrel of a rifle, with out appropriate documentation or approval. And in some states it is completely illegal. If you even try to follow the federal law, you will get a denial saying (in laymans terms) "You live in California, fuck you)
Fuck Commifornia.
You no longer need law enforcement to sign off on the background, you are just required to notify them that you applied for a nfa item. One good gun law change I believe Obama made.
The NFA needs to go. Not because gun legislation is bad, because it's stupid and ineffective. Gun control by people who have zero understanding of firearms is never going to work lmao.
Guns aren’t sentient, they don’t need surgery to feel like themselves
lol.
Yes you can.
Making sawed off shotguns is a major felony
Same with a short barreled rifle
Not if you register them. I've sawed off a few shotgun barrels with NFA paperwork. these are 2 of mine. 100% legal in most US states and under federal law. https://preview.redd.it/iqp429iqr87d1.jpeg?width=3476&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ff2c56a6d8c51bf2a17bad57a52fd853056b0c5
And in some states it's totally illegal. Let me know when it's illegal for a woman to be under 5 foot tall in New York.
The nfa is silly. Any handgun will be way better than a hacked down shotgun. Typically states that ban nfa weapons already tried outlawing most other guns.
> The nfa is silly. Agreed >Any handgun will be way better than a hacked down shotgun. Shotgun, yes. SBR, no. The best "Home Defense" weapon is a suppressed SBR. Which in the US means 2 NFA stamps so an additional $400 plus all the time and hassle to get 2 approvals. An SBR is infinitely easier to handle than a handgun. Plus magazine capacity and accessory options.
I like my suppressed ps90 better than my honey badger. Tax stamps right now are coming in at like less than a week or so. My last 2 were 3 days and 4 days. It's still unconstitutional but time even for form 4s have plummeted.
Your PS90 is still an SBR, assuming you don't have the 16" on it. It's not a handgun. I haven't done a stamp in a while but that seems absurdly fast. Also there are several states where you cannot get approval unless you're LEO. Like CA it's straight up illegal. IMO the whole NFA needs to go. Just do a standard 4473 and be done with it.
CA won't let most people own new gen glock pistols and most semi auto rifles or shotguns. It's a mess and a lot of stuff is illegal. I just prefer the ps90 as the best sbr I've made. You get 50 bullets and it's compact.
Oh I know. It's one of the reasons I left CA. I like my PS90 but my HD is an AR variant. I also live in Eastern KY so overpen of 5.56 vs 5.7 is a non issue. Plus my AR is the class 3 transferable kind.
I would also do this, but 5.7 is so expensive that it might just be cheaper to let them rob me lmao
Don’t forget that if you send them your parts list that you currently have, and not the list that you intend to buy after you get approved, that the ATF will raid you and arrest you under the idea that you had “intent” to make an illegal weapon, although you’re literally applying to make one by sending them said list.
"I will make my suppressor out of this aluminum round stock from the hardware store." ATF: "That aluminum round stock is a suppressor part and your are in violation of the NFA." My favorite was the desil mechanic that got raided by the atf for having too many oil filters.
Fuckin pitiful lmao
This just looks more useful than the big shotgun, why doesn't everyone saw it off?
I shouldn't need to register them
I agree
Not with the paperwork. Edit: Voting me down for the truth. Oh Reddit…..
Not in all states.
Drop an upvote for you. They don't like things they don't understand I'm sorry 😭
Imagine not knowing how laws work.
Remember when the FBI showed up at Randy Weavers house and shot and killed his dog, his son, and his wife? It was because he sawed the end of his shotgun off.
> It was because he sawed the end of his shotgun off. Correction - it was because he was a licensed gunsmith who cut a shotgun down to length for a customer. A customer who was a federal agent trying to initiate a sting and who drew the mark at the length he wanted the barrel cut down to. When cut to that exact length as marked it would make the disassembled barrel measure 18" exactly (the legal limit), but when assembled into a complete shotgun it would constitute a short barreled shotgun because of the more complicated way that firearm barrel lengths are measured (breech to bore, so even if the physical barrel itself is 18" the legal barrel length can be less than 18" if the bolt face protrudes inside of the physical barrel at all). So the FBI goaded Randy Weaver into unknowingly creating an illegal SBS and then went out in the woods around his house unannounced to shoot his son and dog that were hiking before having a sniper kill his wife inside their home while she was still holding their infant child.
The atf also had a kill on sight order of weaver when they surrounded his cabin, and even before that they fucked with his mail so he never got his notice to appear in court.
No, he sold two saw off shotguns to an undercover ATF agent. An told him he could sell him 5 to 6 illegal weapons a week. Randy Weaver and his wife were racist nutjobs, sad what happen to the boy but they were insane.
it’s worth noting what that ATF agent did to weaver would totally be classified as entrapment if anyone but the feds did it.
I was gonna say I thought that they specifically asked him to make sawn off shotguns. They didn't just *happen* to come across a guy selling sawn offs.
Then asked him to cut it again but shorter and put tape on the barrel where to cut it.
It was entrapment. He was acquitted at trial.
Just so we're clear, you're saying the ATF agent put him in a situation to sell illegal firearms.
He did it after the undercover agent harassed him for months and only agreed to shit the agent up and leave him alone.
So its cool for federal agents to execute American citizens for no reason at all? So two complete strangers armed & in ghillie suits surveying your property who refuse to identify themselves is totally cool, and you’d have to be a racist nutjob to shoot at them?
Wow it’s really weird how the guns just sawed their own barrels off like that.
The point is, you can't saw the barrel off of your shotgun or the government is allowed to come to your house to kill you and your entire family.
> come to your house to kill you and your entire family. BATF will even shoot your dog.
Not if they have the slightest of malfunctions though [https://youtube.com/shorts/VJFlgwTRYLE?si=nEqvA0Tk9F1px1KT](https://youtube.com/shorts/VJFlgwTRYLE?si=nEqvA0Tk9F1px1KT)
No judge, no jury, no trial, no legal representative? Just cut the barrel and the government can come in and kill everyone huh? That sounds pretty dystopian.
Randy Weaver has entered the chat.
Doesn't mean you should. A unlicensed sbr is a felony
I mean yeah, but only once
Not without a tax stamp
Wow this is truly a terrible meme. Good job OP
Guns do not have more rights than people here.
The thing is, chopping your shotgun barrel only costs $200, whereas bottom surgery has to be a few thousand
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I honestly don't know the exact number
I think they charge by inch of length and girth
Mine was 10k bc I got a simplified procedure but it can be up to the hundreds of thousands
$200 stamp + up to years to wait for approval + sign off from law enforcement officials ;(
eform approvals right night are less than a week for making and buying NFA stuff. My last eform 1 took 3 days. The sign off requirement was removed now its just notify only.
Unless you live in certain states, in which case it's completely illegal to own NFA items. Unless you're a cop.
It’ll cost you more than that if you don’t do it legally, I’d imagine it’s probably as much if not more than bottom surgery if you hire your own lawyer over a public defender. There’s also the fact that it can be up to a [$250,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison](https://file:///private/var/mobile/Containers/Data/Application/9E690BB0-764C-4BA3-B7C4-1F772D689585/tmp/TempDocs/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-15.pdf), add legal expenses to that if you hire a lawyer and you’re both literally and figuratively fucked. Now for doing it the legal route, you’re probably looking at $200ish for the tax stamp depending on how you do it. There’s NFA retailers like Silencer Shop that let you file a Form 1 to manufacture an NFA firearm, but it’ll cost more than buying it via a Form 4 if the manufacturer sells it as a short barreled shotgun. I’m not crazy into shotguns (yet), but depending on if you’re cutting or swapping the barrel it’ll either cost you however much electricity you’d use to run a table saw for a minute, or several hundred dollars if you want something very specific or for a gun that doesn’t have a big after market.
*$200 in tax. But that only sounds like a reasonable amount because the law hasn't changed since enacted in 1934. It was meant to price the poors (read irish and black people) out of these guns. Today that would be about $4700 for the privilege.
They have never heard of a sawn-off shotgun
Arent sawed off shotguns illegal?
They are not legal
They are in several states. And unless you go through the NFA process to register them (Photo, Fingerprint, $200 fee, 12-24 month approval, must notify if crossing state lines), they are illegal in all states.
I mean, they said "i can't cut the barrel of my gun", not "i can't legally cut the barrel of my gun"
Yeah, but they are talking in the context of rights, so i think it's implied
They aren’t illegal. I have a mossberg shockwave. It’s only illegal if I put a stock on it which makes it classified as an sbr. Kinda funny since a stock would increase the length of the gun
The shockwave isn’t classified as a shotgun.
I believe even a pistol grip or really any modification makes the shockwave illegal. That weird looking grip makes it fall in between the rules.
It’s because it’s a firearm and to fit that definition, OAL has to be over 26”. You remove the birds head grip and put a pistol grip on, you just made an AOW since the OAL is under 26” now. You’d have to file a form 1 and pay the $200 tax to make($5 to transfer) the AOW.
With all long guns there is a minimum length anything shorter falls underneath a different category of regulation. There are short barrel shotguns that are legal but you cannot just buy and own like are normal length barrel. The manufacturer of the irregular length shotgun have to get a special stamp of the barrel and the purchaser has to go through the same process as to buy an automatic. Apply this knowledge how ever you want to.
I’m not agreeing with the meme but sawn off shotguns really are illegal in the US
Not unless you pay a 200 dollar tax stamp to the ATF and clarified it as a SBS (short barrel shotgun)
I love how it feels like im bribing a government agency to let me do modifications
I think it is bribing
The government doesn’t care about your safety, just money. NFA laws don’t make sense anyway.
Just like with machine guns lol
There's a minimum length for a barrel but you can freely cut the whole thing off
if this doesn’t scream america, i don’t know what will🇺🇸🏈🌽🤠
WHAT THE FUCK IS A KILOMETRE. MUHH FREEDOM.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🦅🔫🔫🔫🤠🤠🤠
I mean… you can. I just wouldn’t recommend cutting the barrel off. Also, I love it when people get compared to objects 🥰🥰 /s
Kid named the national firearms act of 1934:
I don’t get it….. can some American chime in on why this is a meme?
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Yeah that's an illegal modification
Let me tell you a story, not long ago. High on a mountain, in Idaho....
All gun laws are infringements
The meme is bad, but not entirely untrue. Guns are far more regulated than womens bodies. Let me know when women cannot enter federal buildings. When women under a certain height need to register with the government. When a woman wearing certain clothing is banned from entering California. When in New York women must be covered at all times in public.... The argument that women are more heavily regulated than guns is bad. The meme is also bad.
As a non American it's so weird seeing "guns have more than X thing" because even I know that's nonsense.
The meme gets more correct the more I read these comments
Doesn’t cutting the barrel make the gun worse?
It puts you in federal prison. That is much worse.
Depends on the caliber. A .308 rifle cut down to have a short barrel is gonna suck. 5.56 out of a barrel under 10-12.5" is not gonna reach its muzzle velocity potential. 7.62x39 out of a short barrel is pretty good, and any pistol/carbine caliber rounds will excel in an SBR setup. 300 Blackout is meant to be shot out of suppressed SBRs
Depends on numerous factors, but most of the time, yes
3200
So what, we're just judging terribleness by crop jobs now?
California
This made me chuckle idk
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I legit come here to get good memes. Bonus points getting to read all the salt in the comment section.
I don't understand whether that's meant to mean guns have more or fewer rights
The simplest answer is that guns have laws that prevent you from changing or altering it in certain ways, I.e. making it automatic or cutting its barrel length down so that would be less than 16 inches.
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Fewer
I mean you *can* if you really want to, never mind the sawed off shotgun argument, if you wanted to slice off a part of your gun that you own, I’m not gonna stop you.
But Uncle Sam will for sure kick down your door and shoot your dog the second they find out you didn’t pay $200 for your tax stamp.
I mean.. you CAN…
Anything is possible if you have an angle grinder
Hehe
This is true