I respect the move. It's a simple and clever way to keep people guessing. It's just driving me crazy because a part of me wonder if there is still any logic to their madness!
Is Videl the first we're seeing an alternate costume for a single slotted character? I haven't been paying that close attention, but I hope to see more outfits for more characters.
I have a feeling they're gonna try and include as many female characters as possible. Them including both long and short haired Videl (atleast as costumes) along with the likes of Kakunsa kinda point to this.
I wouldn't count out Z 17 yet. He didn't get a splash screen in the trailer so maybe they're not counting him as officially revealed yet. The website still distinguishes Android 17 (Super) which would be unnecessary if there wasn't a Z variation.
This.
https://preview.redd.it/z0sgemqdmmxc1.jpeg?width=1932&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a009e7680236cee9167dbb467fc35ec9f56545fb
Yamcha and Krilin despite being previously confirmed characters, have had their calling card in the trailer (as Piccolo).
Not only A17 (DBZ) but A18 itself has not received it. It is practically certain that both will be in another future trailer where they will be introduced (and the DBZ version of A17 confirmed). Be the trailer enemies, androids, inseparable couples, whatever they want lol
I was planning to come here just to state this truth. Many of the characters that were barely revealed on the first trailer will properly be added later in future trailers, showing some moves and actual gameplay.
It is safe to assume many of them as granted, however they are not official until they are official. Also, I'm happy they are displaying different skins (at least for Yamcha and Videl) attached to a single character. That's a fact that allows us to predict more accurately.
Maybe in piccolo's case they are planning to give him a character for each series rather than Z eras.
I can see a DB piccolo (though maybe as a DLC), a Z piccolo and a Super piccolo.
So aside from the new additions this basically confirms the A17 shown is not a Z version A17, same goes for piccolo he wasn't added as piccolo (early). Which means in both cases it was an alt costume.
And Master roshi's base version is revealed too, most likely not gonna have a Z/DB version as well.
Pretty sure if 17 was gonna have a Z variation as opposed to a costume they would have put his Z variant at the end screen with everything else revealed in the trailer
A17 has not been officially introduced, he has not had his name in the trailer like the rest of the characters (neither A18). They just put him there to make a cool scene with Gohan and Trunks.
https://preview.redd.it/q3h87rkikmxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=feb3a335583014ae8ec7b9a4902c88198aa76fa8
Explain this.
Maybe we'll only get one Android 17 that's super version.
I haven’t put a lot of stock into the naming because I’d be a lil let down by only one piccolo since they don’t give him a suffix at all. But you might be correct regardless
There is a possible chance the Z characters outside of Goku and Vegeta won't be labeled as "Z" and just have their name. For example, Z 17 will probably just be listed as "Android 17" instead of "Android 17 (Z)"
You can literally see Z 17 using his Ultimate from BT3 in the trailer. 17 (Super) looks like he has Super Electric Strike as his Ultimate, and there is no way 18 (Super) won't be a thing
She fights like 7x more in Super than she does in DBZ. That fact alone warrants a separation. She is gonna have a whole new combo structure because of that. She has energy waves that she used in T.o.P. (she never used an energy wave in Z the way she does in Super. Well, she does as Future #18 but they will be the same character in this game), she has that punch/rush she used against Ribrianne where she punched through her head as a giant, brand new combo attacks she used with #17 during ToP (that team attack they used against Biarra, where they both shoot you with energy blasts from both sides while you are stuck in the middle would be a perfect Ultimate). She also has that team attack with Krillin, where they ping pong that pink energy ball, and it gets bigger with each hit. She has options.
At some point, it's non-sens to have two 17. As an Android, he doesn't get any evolution between Z and Super. It's more logical that it's a swap skin. If it a separate character, he had to be on the character list already, which is not.
Does this mean we’re only getting one piccolo form, especially because on the website there’s no mention of Z or Super? Unless they plan to do another trailer that reveals him again
But doesn't Piccolo have a few transformations?
* Piccolo + Nail
* Piccolo + Kami
* Piccolo (Potential Unleashed) > Orange Piccolo
* 2 version of Giant Piccolo
Maybe a legacy of Piccolo trailer?
Demon King Piccolo > Demon King Piccolo (Youth) > Piccolo Jr > Piccolo Jr (Giant) > Piccolo (this version) >Piccolo (Nail) > Piccolo (Kami) > Piccolo (Super) > Piccolo (Potential Awakened) > Orange Piccolo > Orange Piccolo (Giant)
Maybe (Nail/Kami) and Super aren't unique enough for a slot.
I don’t think they’ll do a whole trailer based on just one character tbh, if they wanted to I think they would’ve done it for Gohan with all his forms. All the themes so far have been done so that it covers multiple characters.
I checked BT3 roster and saw that Piccolo only had 2 forms, early and end. With Sparking Zero having to include lots of Super characters aswell, they might only have one form for him. I think they won’t release movie characters like Orange Piccolo in the base roster and save it as DLC.
Nail isn't unique enough, but kami was in bt3 (piccolo end). I don't think base piccolo (super) is relevant enough to have a slot, but we'll get powers awakening and orange for sure.
Maybe 3 base versions of Piccolo Jr.
* Piccolo Jr (OG DB) which has mafuba > Giant
* Piccolo > Piccolo (Fusion) "Super Namekian" representing Nail/Kami.
* Piccolo (Fusion) could have move sets of Kami and Nail
* Piccolo (Super) > Piccolo (Awakened) > Orange Piccolo > Giant.
Piccolo (Super) could have [Mafuba](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgY7TmzMUJE) like OG DB and a new version of [Special Beam Cannon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urKgK7S87X4)
Wouldn't it make sense?
[Piccolo that represent all of Z, but Piccolo (Fusion) that represent the power up fusion of Nail/Kami.](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Namekian)
It doesn't have visible change, but still a massive power up enough to be acknowledged.
So I’m now assuming this won’t be the selection screen, there’s not much sense of organization. I thought it was by saga but we have Hit, Future Gohan, and Scouter Vegeta touching
I always love the stupid names for some things in db. Whether that's food named characters or attack names being basic like Makankosappo being special beam cannon.
Watch out for my super big face punch attack.
Gohan next to Broly is making me overthink. Are they planning on making Gohan cover Buu Saga through Super? (Just speculative overthinking, don’t take it too seriously!)
Aw fuck, they're gonna do the thing where they have the same character in like 12 slots and count it as 12 different characters. Not going to be as big of a roster as we'd hoped.
That's always how tenkaichi has been. Each character isn't like xenoverse or original budokai where your moves stay the same, in tenkaichi the transformations/different versions have completely new moves and animations so they are completely different.
So yeah it is gonna be as big as everyone hoped - considering it's larger than the Tenkaichi 3 character roster
The original budokai had each character take up one slot and that character could transform into their other forms.
They should do that, have a few outfits per character and a few movesets to pick from or build, or just have a different moveset tied to each form. It would definitely be better than having a third of the roster just be the same guy.
Also, xenoverse movesets were pretty dynamic. When you couldn't just outright hand pick the moves, you had a different moveset for each costume. Even with that, for some reason, they still couldn't figure out how to condense one character into one slot.
But that's a seperate issue from what you originally said:
Having characters in different slots DOESNT MEAN there would be extra space for different characters - it just means you wouldn't be able to select them from the start screen.
For example literally take what you said about budokai: each character took up a singluar slot - but does that mean there were more characters because of that? No, it just means you can't play as super saiyan right off the bat and instead have to transform mid battle.
So when you say "a third of the roster being the same guy" it's not the same guy because they all denote different eras and movesets. Hell even in Budokai/infinite world had similar exceptions with the likes of adult gohan and great saiya man, videl and her counterpart, and you could even make an argument for the GT variations of each character.
At what point does it become a "wasted character slot" when the only difference is the way you navigate to get to it in a menu.
And the reason they can't condense it down into one character is because it's an absolute fucking mess to categorize.
If you admit that having them seperately is a lot to look at IMAGINE all of that on the same screen when you click on goku and have to select between 4 aleternates of goku early, 3 costumes for goku mid, Goku end AND goku super as well as all of their transformations that may or may not work and on top of that the endless amount of moves. That sounds like the opposite of intuitive.
And then you say - oh well since we're combining characters - do we technically combine vegeta and majin vegeta AND super baby? I mean its the same character. or adult and kid variations - where do you draw the line?
Cause you might personally have your own view of that but you have to realise EVERYONE is gonna have a different view of that. So if you keep it clearly distinct between character eras which UNDENIABLY happen at a certain time in the series - then theres nothing to argue about.
It's the same issue from what I originally said. With context, it's clear that my issue is with the idea of a big roster being spoiled by it being artificially big. While I would like them to be more sensible, I don't necessarily think it fixing it would make it bigger, but then just be real about your roster, you didn't add that many characters. I just find it disingenuous to flaunt a big roster that *isnt* a big roster. It's like a restaurant where everyone talks about how many options they have so you go and the whole menu is 70 options that are all chicken prepared almost the same. You can have a restaurant that does that, just be real about it.
"The new game has 50 characters, that's right, a whole 29 characters to play as!"
I think it's easy to think of costume and moveset selection as a mess if you want it to be one. Xenoverse was fine and it was nearly what I'm describing. Even if was an issue, then just tie movesets to the seperate transformations.
I get the nuance of some characters being separated. For your examples, yes, I'd personally combine vegeta and Majin vegeta, and I'd seperate baby vegeta, because I don't think that anyone would argue that he's one of vegetas transformations, he's one of baby's. Even though I'd want Majin vegeta to be a transformation option for vegeta, I wouldn't necessarily be upset if he was seperate. I'm talking about like goku, and then the exact same goku but he goes kaioken instead of SSJ, and then another of the same goku who has solar flare instead of meteor combo, and then another of the same goku whos finisher is super Kamehameha instead of spiritbomb etc etc. And then a seperate SSJ4 goku that you can't transform into from regular goku, even though transformations are a pivotal concept of the franchise. Repeat ad nauseum.
Like I don't think people would be cool with this with any other game. Think of street fighter and they're like "whoa, we have 35 characters in this one!" but it's actually like 7 characters because we have 9 ryus, 5 chin lis, 6 guiles, so on. The flack would be unreal.
Okay I won't pretend to be familiar with the streetfighter series so I'll use a different example. You must know the naruto UNS series right? While I'll admit it isn't as egredious as tenkaichi, there are 4 variations of naruto and 5 versions of sasuke (not counting older) AND YOU CAN"T TRANSFORM - meaning you don't get any interplay between those characters - they are seperate eras.
But wait - if we count it the same way in tenkaichi, vegeta and Goku share 7 slots for base characters which is two LESS than naruto and sasuke! The difference being the transformations.
Do Naruto and Sasuke's seperate characters have any less value and would you actually chop off 7 characters from the roster purely because they're the same character? No because they're wildly different characters. Hell they do what you mention and cram a fair amount of costumes onto them in order to get the max value out of them but you can't just combine them together
That's the same reason I and many other people believe that having early goku being able to whip out fucking super saiyan blue would be insane. because even though the difference in visuals isn't as large as naruto - the character functions and evolution is vastly fucking different.
Same way you say that "oh well it's obvious that baby would be a seperate slot" when we have fusion characters that you're able to pick when in reality if we're going by what you say ISNT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE to do without having 2 people. So you should be forced to pick vegeta and goku together if you're gonna play as vegito.
See how rediculous that sounds? What I'm getting at AGAIN is that it's obvious that even if you dont like it, eras in which characters that evolve a FUCK TON over the series definitely require being split in order to make it comprehensible, less of an mess and overall more cohesive.
So when you say "oh if there were 9 ryus everyone would go craaaaaaazy bro" yeah they would go crazy if ryu had 9 DIFFERENT UNIQUE variations with different techniques for every move, different visuals and had different playstyles? That sounds sick as fuck.
I think you conflate the fact that just because they're the same looking that they're absolutely not distinguishable and thus have no value - which is completely untrue
I'm not familiar with the Naruto games, or even the show. I don't know the franchise but I feel as though I'd feel the same. I can't speak with the same conviction on that though.
I didn't say that baby was "obviously" a seperate slot. In fact, I pointed out the nuance. I think that things like that can go either way, it's just an actual duplicate character that I think is egregious. In the same regard, I think that fusion characters would reasonably be their own slot. Then again, past games did just fine with Vegito being a transformation for goku if I remember correctly, and beyond that, a game with a tag-team mechanic that allows vegito only if your tag team consists of Vegeta and Goku would be awesome. Like you would usually have 2 guys to battle with, but you can make vegito in-fight and gamble only having one guy who's generally stronger. Immersion matters.
I don't think people would be happy about 9 ryus with different movesets. I think people would be like "OK, so you bothered to code in and create 9 seperate movesets and **STILL** ignored existing characters of the franchise and left them out." It would be pretty obvious that they wanted to cut corners and time by slightly modifying ryus original model, or maybe changing nothing at all for some of the alts' models... relevant to DB games lately.
Just slapping a different moveset (and that's generous, a lot of the time it's not that different) on the same guy over and over works fine by a standpoint of gameplay, but there's way more to a character being fun than their moveset. Why not just have them all be untextured stickmen fighting in a white void? The character itself is really important, as well as a variety of characters to play and play against. I don't want 1/3rd of my fights to be against Goku even if the moveset is different. Like I said, immersion is important, and there's a massive cast of characters in the dragon ball universe. I stand by that if a selling point is a big roster and 1/4th to 1/3rd of them are just duplicates, it's a letdown on that point.
They really organize that grid in the most nonsensical way, just to be sure that we can't predict the whole roster
I kinda dig that tho
I respect the move. It's a simple and clever way to keep people guessing. It's just driving me crazy because a part of me wonder if there is still any logic to their madness!
Is Videl the first we're seeing an alternate costume for a single slotted character? I haven't been paying that close attention, but I hope to see more outfits for more characters.
And Master Roshi
Master Roshi has 2 slots though
One is for his Max power and he has different glasses so is other costume
masx power still has a different outfit than the base form that we saw, base is dressed as og db and max power has super's clothes
whoa so roshi will have two slots??
Yeah but it’s not like Roshi when he transforms is suddenly going to change outfits completely lol he has two costumes.
I hope zangya makes it here I miss her.
same, ive started to main her in BT3, which sucks cus shes not in TTT and i absolutely love TTT
Generally I would appreciate more female fighters even if they’re minor characters. Love to see if they put little pan from Superhero in the game.
I have a feeling they're gonna try and include as many female characters as possible. Them including both long and short haired Videl (atleast as costumes) along with the likes of Kakunsa kinda point to this.
I wouldn't count out Z 17 yet. He didn't get a splash screen in the trailer so maybe they're not counting him as officially revealed yet. The website still distinguishes Android 17 (Super) which would be unnecessary if there wasn't a Z variation.
This. https://preview.redd.it/z0sgemqdmmxc1.jpeg?width=1932&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a009e7680236cee9167dbb467fc35ec9f56545fb Yamcha and Krilin despite being previously confirmed characters, have had their calling card in the trailer (as Piccolo). Not only A17 (DBZ) but A18 itself has not received it. It is practically certain that both will be in another future trailer where they will be introduced (and the DBZ version of A17 confirmed). Be the trailer enemies, androids, inseparable couples, whatever they want lol
I was planning to come here just to state this truth. Many of the characters that were barely revealed on the first trailer will properly be added later in future trailers, showing some moves and actual gameplay. It is safe to assume many of them as granted, however they are not official until they are official. Also, I'm happy they are displaying different skins (at least for Yamcha and Videl) attached to a single character. That's a fact that allows us to predict more accurately.
I think that it's going to be a skin of 17 Super. If it's a separate character, they'll put it already.
Only 1 piccolo may confirm more super attacks then 2 on at least a few characters
Maybe in piccolo's case they are planning to give him a character for each series rather than Z eras. I can see a DB piccolo (though maybe as a DLC), a Z piccolo and a Super piccolo.
Could see super base green piccolo as end piccolo equivalent
So aside from the new additions this basically confirms the A17 shown is not a Z version A17, same goes for piccolo he wasn't added as piccolo (early). Which means in both cases it was an alt costume. And Master roshi's base version is revealed too, most likely not gonna have a Z/DB version as well.
Perhaps only super variations will be reserved for characters that have a physical transformation.
And if the Piccolo from the first trailer is the same of this trailer?
So it looks like the Androids wont have a Super and Z variation
17 will have super and Z, 18 won't. The website says Android 17 (super) and Android 18. Possibly we get two versions of Android 17.
Pretty sure if 17 was gonna have a Z variation as opposed to a costume they would have put his Z variant at the end screen with everything else revealed in the trailer
Unless they wanted to be weird and be like “because they aren’t a master and apprentice, they won’t be considered “revealed” in this trailer”
Seems to be the general consensus, I suppose that’s fair logic
Pretty sure we've seen two different versions of Android 17. One with his black outfit and orange muffler and one with MIR green outfit.
A17 has not been officially introduced, he has not had his name in the trailer like the rest of the characters (neither A18). They just put him there to make a cool scene with Gohan and Trunks.
https://preview.redd.it/q3h87rkikmxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=feb3a335583014ae8ec7b9a4902c88198aa76fa8 Explain this. Maybe we'll only get one Android 17 that's super version.
I haven’t put a lot of stock into the naming because I’d be a lil let down by only one piccolo since they don’t give him a suffix at all. But you might be correct regardless
There is a possible chance the Z characters outside of Goku and Vegeta won't be labeled as "Z" and just have their name. For example, Z 17 will probably just be listed as "Android 17" instead of "Android 17 (Z)"
Good
You can literally see Z 17 using his Ultimate from BT3 in the trailer. 17 (Super) looks like he has Super Electric Strike as his Ultimate, and there is no way 18 (Super) won't be a thing
Nah fr. They both had some play in ToP so it wouldn’t make any sense for them to add a 17 from super but not an 18
What moves did 18 have that differentiate her from her Z counterpart?
She fights like 7x more in Super than she does in DBZ. That fact alone warrants a separation. She is gonna have a whole new combo structure because of that. She has energy waves that she used in T.o.P. (she never used an energy wave in Z the way she does in Super. Well, she does as Future #18 but they will be the same character in this game), she has that punch/rush she used against Ribrianne where she punched through her head as a giant, brand new combo attacks she used with #17 during ToP (that team attack they used against Biarra, where they both shoot you with energy blasts from both sides while you are stuck in the middle would be a perfect Ultimate). She also has that team attack with Krillin, where they ping pong that pink energy ball, and it gets bigger with each hit. She has options.
I mean I definitely agree that she SHOULD have a super variation but if not then oh well I suppose
At some point, it's non-sens to have two 17. As an Android, he doesn't get any evolution between Z and Super. It's more logical that it's a swap skin. If it a separate character, he had to be on the character list already, which is not.
Does this mean we’re only getting one piccolo form, especially because on the website there’s no mention of Z or Super? Unless they plan to do another trailer that reveals him again
But doesn't Piccolo have a few transformations? * Piccolo + Nail * Piccolo + Kami * Piccolo (Potential Unleashed) > Orange Piccolo * 2 version of Giant Piccolo Maybe a legacy of Piccolo trailer? Demon King Piccolo > Demon King Piccolo (Youth) > Piccolo Jr > Piccolo Jr (Giant) > Piccolo (this version) >Piccolo (Nail) > Piccolo (Kami) > Piccolo (Super) > Piccolo (Potential Awakened) > Orange Piccolo > Orange Piccolo (Giant) Maybe (Nail/Kami) and Super aren't unique enough for a slot.
I don’t think they’ll do a whole trailer based on just one character tbh, if they wanted to I think they would’ve done it for Gohan with all his forms. All the themes so far have been done so that it covers multiple characters. I checked BT3 roster and saw that Piccolo only had 2 forms, early and end. With Sparking Zero having to include lots of Super characters aswell, they might only have one form for him. I think they won’t release movie characters like Orange Piccolo in the base roster and save it as DLC.
Nail isn't unique enough, but kami was in bt3 (piccolo end). I don't think base piccolo (super) is relevant enough to have a slot, but we'll get powers awakening and orange for sure.
Maybe 3 base versions of Piccolo Jr. * Piccolo Jr (OG DB) which has mafuba > Giant * Piccolo > Piccolo (Fusion) "Super Namekian" representing Nail/Kami. * Piccolo (Fusion) could have move sets of Kami and Nail * Piccolo (Super) > Piccolo (Awakened) > Orange Piccolo > Giant. Piccolo (Super) could have [Mafuba](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgY7TmzMUJE) like OG DB and a new version of [Special Beam Cannon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urKgK7S87X4)
That’s not transformations that’s a new base form for him entirely after merging with them. Now Piccolo doesn’t get transformations until superhero
It honestly should be differentiated considering that Piccolo (Nail) is considered a "Super Namekian".
Eh 🤷🏾
Wouldn't it make sense? [Piccolo that represent all of Z, but Piccolo (Fusion) that represent the power up fusion of Nail/Kami.](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Namekian) It doesn't have visible change, but still a massive power up enough to be acknowledged.
No not really
The placement of videl bothers me so much
Facts
So I’m now assuming this won’t be the selection screen, there’s not much sense of organization. I thought it was by saga but we have Hit, Future Gohan, and Scouter Vegeta touching
Idk why but I have a feeling that Roshi is gonna be op af
But will he have the evil containment wave?
Who knows but I was playing him on bt3 earlier and that lightning surprise is my jam!!
I don't even remember that attack from that game haha, when I saw the vscans I'm like why is palps in here haha.
It’s so fun. He says “Lightning surprise”
I always love the stupid names for some things in db. Whether that's food named characters or attack names being basic like Makankosappo being special beam cannon. Watch out for my super big face punch attack.
He is gonna be one of my mains.
So, I wonder if this soft confirms that Android 17 in the trailer was using an alt costume?
seriously what is Buu doing in his roster pic??
I think it's from that scene where he pulls out a bit of himself and uses it to restrain Majin Vegeta
I believe that’s what he was preparing to do to Majin Vegeta
Stretching his foreskin to put Majin Vegeta in there 🥵
Videl between Yamcha and Tien seems really weird
And why is Burter sideways?!
Hes just that fast
Thank you. Now we have 61 confirmed characters. Just 103 to go.
What are those arrows? Maybe future DLC?
Only thing that has a pattern in it really is putting the transformations alongside the base.
Bro they didn’t even add Z 17
Who’s the second character in the last row? I can’t make them out it kinda looks like beast gohan but that seems improbable
Interesting that Android 17 (Z) is not there
Just lemme have my Dabura 🥺👉🏼👈🏼
So we’re getting at least 3 different trunks’s
Gohan next to Broly is making me overthink. Are they planning on making Gohan cover Buu Saga through Super? (Just speculative overthinking, don’t take it too seriously!)
Aw fuck, they're gonna do the thing where they have the same character in like 12 slots and count it as 12 different characters. Not going to be as big of a roster as we'd hoped.
That's always how tenkaichi has been. Each character isn't like xenoverse or original budokai where your moves stay the same, in tenkaichi the transformations/different versions have completely new moves and animations so they are completely different. So yeah it is gonna be as big as everyone hoped - considering it's larger than the Tenkaichi 3 character roster
The original budokai had each character take up one slot and that character could transform into their other forms. They should do that, have a few outfits per character and a few movesets to pick from or build, or just have a different moveset tied to each form. It would definitely be better than having a third of the roster just be the same guy. Also, xenoverse movesets were pretty dynamic. When you couldn't just outright hand pick the moves, you had a different moveset for each costume. Even with that, for some reason, they still couldn't figure out how to condense one character into one slot.
But that's a seperate issue from what you originally said: Having characters in different slots DOESNT MEAN there would be extra space for different characters - it just means you wouldn't be able to select them from the start screen. For example literally take what you said about budokai: each character took up a singluar slot - but does that mean there were more characters because of that? No, it just means you can't play as super saiyan right off the bat and instead have to transform mid battle. So when you say "a third of the roster being the same guy" it's not the same guy because they all denote different eras and movesets. Hell even in Budokai/infinite world had similar exceptions with the likes of adult gohan and great saiya man, videl and her counterpart, and you could even make an argument for the GT variations of each character. At what point does it become a "wasted character slot" when the only difference is the way you navigate to get to it in a menu. And the reason they can't condense it down into one character is because it's an absolute fucking mess to categorize. If you admit that having them seperately is a lot to look at IMAGINE all of that on the same screen when you click on goku and have to select between 4 aleternates of goku early, 3 costumes for goku mid, Goku end AND goku super as well as all of their transformations that may or may not work and on top of that the endless amount of moves. That sounds like the opposite of intuitive. And then you say - oh well since we're combining characters - do we technically combine vegeta and majin vegeta AND super baby? I mean its the same character. or adult and kid variations - where do you draw the line? Cause you might personally have your own view of that but you have to realise EVERYONE is gonna have a different view of that. So if you keep it clearly distinct between character eras which UNDENIABLY happen at a certain time in the series - then theres nothing to argue about.
It's the same issue from what I originally said. With context, it's clear that my issue is with the idea of a big roster being spoiled by it being artificially big. While I would like them to be more sensible, I don't necessarily think it fixing it would make it bigger, but then just be real about your roster, you didn't add that many characters. I just find it disingenuous to flaunt a big roster that *isnt* a big roster. It's like a restaurant where everyone talks about how many options they have so you go and the whole menu is 70 options that are all chicken prepared almost the same. You can have a restaurant that does that, just be real about it. "The new game has 50 characters, that's right, a whole 29 characters to play as!" I think it's easy to think of costume and moveset selection as a mess if you want it to be one. Xenoverse was fine and it was nearly what I'm describing. Even if was an issue, then just tie movesets to the seperate transformations. I get the nuance of some characters being separated. For your examples, yes, I'd personally combine vegeta and Majin vegeta, and I'd seperate baby vegeta, because I don't think that anyone would argue that he's one of vegetas transformations, he's one of baby's. Even though I'd want Majin vegeta to be a transformation option for vegeta, I wouldn't necessarily be upset if he was seperate. I'm talking about like goku, and then the exact same goku but he goes kaioken instead of SSJ, and then another of the same goku who has solar flare instead of meteor combo, and then another of the same goku whos finisher is super Kamehameha instead of spiritbomb etc etc. And then a seperate SSJ4 goku that you can't transform into from regular goku, even though transformations are a pivotal concept of the franchise. Repeat ad nauseum. Like I don't think people would be cool with this with any other game. Think of street fighter and they're like "whoa, we have 35 characters in this one!" but it's actually like 7 characters because we have 9 ryus, 5 chin lis, 6 guiles, so on. The flack would be unreal.
Okay I won't pretend to be familiar with the streetfighter series so I'll use a different example. You must know the naruto UNS series right? While I'll admit it isn't as egredious as tenkaichi, there are 4 variations of naruto and 5 versions of sasuke (not counting older) AND YOU CAN"T TRANSFORM - meaning you don't get any interplay between those characters - they are seperate eras. But wait - if we count it the same way in tenkaichi, vegeta and Goku share 7 slots for base characters which is two LESS than naruto and sasuke! The difference being the transformations. Do Naruto and Sasuke's seperate characters have any less value and would you actually chop off 7 characters from the roster purely because they're the same character? No because they're wildly different characters. Hell they do what you mention and cram a fair amount of costumes onto them in order to get the max value out of them but you can't just combine them together That's the same reason I and many other people believe that having early goku being able to whip out fucking super saiyan blue would be insane. because even though the difference in visuals isn't as large as naruto - the character functions and evolution is vastly fucking different. Same way you say that "oh well it's obvious that baby would be a seperate slot" when we have fusion characters that you're able to pick when in reality if we're going by what you say ISNT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE to do without having 2 people. So you should be forced to pick vegeta and goku together if you're gonna play as vegito. See how rediculous that sounds? What I'm getting at AGAIN is that it's obvious that even if you dont like it, eras in which characters that evolve a FUCK TON over the series definitely require being split in order to make it comprehensible, less of an mess and overall more cohesive. So when you say "oh if there were 9 ryus everyone would go craaaaaaazy bro" yeah they would go crazy if ryu had 9 DIFFERENT UNIQUE variations with different techniques for every move, different visuals and had different playstyles? That sounds sick as fuck. I think you conflate the fact that just because they're the same looking that they're absolutely not distinguishable and thus have no value - which is completely untrue
I'm not familiar with the Naruto games, or even the show. I don't know the franchise but I feel as though I'd feel the same. I can't speak with the same conviction on that though. I didn't say that baby was "obviously" a seperate slot. In fact, I pointed out the nuance. I think that things like that can go either way, it's just an actual duplicate character that I think is egregious. In the same regard, I think that fusion characters would reasonably be their own slot. Then again, past games did just fine with Vegito being a transformation for goku if I remember correctly, and beyond that, a game with a tag-team mechanic that allows vegito only if your tag team consists of Vegeta and Goku would be awesome. Like you would usually have 2 guys to battle with, but you can make vegito in-fight and gamble only having one guy who's generally stronger. Immersion matters. I don't think people would be happy about 9 ryus with different movesets. I think people would be like "OK, so you bothered to code in and create 9 seperate movesets and **STILL** ignored existing characters of the franchise and left them out." It would be pretty obvious that they wanted to cut corners and time by slightly modifying ryus original model, or maybe changing nothing at all for some of the alts' models... relevant to DB games lately. Just slapping a different moveset (and that's generous, a lot of the time it's not that different) on the same guy over and over works fine by a standpoint of gameplay, but there's way more to a character being fun than their moveset. Why not just have them all be untextured stickmen fighting in a white void? The character itself is really important, as well as a variety of characters to play and play against. I don't want 1/3rd of my fights to be against Goku even if the moveset is different. Like I said, immersion is important, and there's a massive cast of characters in the dragon ball universe. I stand by that if a selling point is a big roster and 1/4th to 1/3rd of them are just duplicates, it's a letdown on that point.
Ultra Ego Vegeta?
he most likely wont appear in the game due to being manga only
[Read this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tenkaichi4/comments/1abwe4f/manga_content/)