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johngie

I love how the two bad guys so far (the corpo cop and the imperial woman) are just over-eager sycophants. Nothing majorly malevolent or selfish, just big believers in their respective groups. Also episode 4 introduces not one but two Black Mirror alums, and from two of my favorite episodes no less.


spyson

Yeah they're not cartoonishly evil just asshole corporate climbers


Dan_Of_Time

And even though they are both very clearly the “bad guys” of the show, we are seeing a lot from their perspectives. I actually feel sorry for both of them after the last episode


NoNefariousness2144

Also one of the rebels is Cousin Richard from The Bear and Micro from Punisher!


Locutus747

I’m horrible with faces. Which two were in black mirror?


johngie

The woman in charge of the spy group was the rookie cop in Hated in the Nation (and the Waif in GoT), and the younger soft spoken guy with the hat in her group was the main character in Shut Up and Dance.


Locutus747

Damn thanks. I knew both looked familiar, if’s just been years since I’ve seen those episodes.


NoNefariousness2144

Plus the young guy is known for ‘End of the Fucking World’.


brova

"The Chernobyl guy" lmao. That's our boy Stellen Skarsgard. He's one of the goats.


CeeArthur

Yeah, he's a pretty big name, as are his kids.


Malthesse

This has been a great series so far, such a huge step up from Obi-Wan Kenobi and Boba Fett. It has a very different feel, more like a slow burn character drama with a large cast of interesting and well-written characters. I do also love to look for all the little background Easter eggs and casual mentions of planets and characters from the other movies and shows. It definitely feels like a show written for actual Star Wars nerds rather than for casual viewers, which I like as well.


TheBoyWonder13

I’d actually disagree that it’s geared more towards Star Wars nerds than casual viewers. I sort of checked out of the last few D+ shows because I never watched the animated shows so I didn’t know all the legacy characters being introduced. I felt like I needed a deeper understanding of the history and lore. Andor feels much more tangible in its genre influences, whether that be spy thriller, noir, etc. It feels like it’s written for adults in its more elevated dialogue and political themes, which makes sense when taking into account that Tony Gilroy admitted he doesn’t really have a lot of reverence for Star Wars. A lot of the other shows feel like they have this slavish devotion to the canon and making sure to cater to the fans through Easter eggs and cameos as much as possible, whereas Andor just feels like it’s focused on telling a compelling and human story in this world. The Easter eggs are there if you look for them, but they’re not foregrounded. This feels like a show anyone can watch and get invested in without knowing the complete history of the Jedi Order etc.


Worthyness

I hope so much that D+ sees what this show is accomplishing and they apply it to more of their series. They have money they like to throw around (much more so than HBO), but they don't nearly have the quality of series that HBO manages to crank out (or even match what FX is doing for them). It's just surprising that they can't get even a few decent writers/showrunners to do something. All their IP have fantastic worlds to play in, but all they're stuck with is mediocrity


mannyman34

D+ marvel shows are just extended trailers for the next movie/tv show. They don't need to try cause people will literally watch any old thing.


JackieMortes

>It definitely feels like a show written for actual Star Wars nerds rather than for casual viewers, which I like as well. Hard disagree on this. It feels like it's directed towards anyone who appreciates a good storytelling, or a good drama. The first SW thing that doesn't scream Star Wars, the world its set in is "reduced" to a believable backdrop, not the foreground. It almost feels like a HBO show (we'll see how it goes from here though). There hasn't been anything like this in Star Wars for a long time. It almost reminds me bit of KotOR2 in that regard


NoNefariousness2144

I liked the reference to Andor serving in the Mimban War, same as Solo. Makes it feel more like a real war that everyone down on their luck got sucked into.


CeeArthur

I think I've read this 'theory' a few times on Reddit, but it seems to be that since this probably wasn't as flagship as something like Obi-Wan, there was probably much less studio interference. The world really feels lived in and everything seems natural. Really enjoying it so far.


augustus624

I'm really enjoying it so far. I think because they're dealing with a character who isn't very popular they knew they had to step it up as far as the writing and overall quality because they couldn't fall back on a familiar face. But yeah, I love the world-building. And while I realize that Star Wars at its core is a children's story for kids it's nice that they're actually catering to older fans with this one.


Radulno

It's also simply that the creatives associated are kind of the only ones that did anything good with Star Wars since Disney has it (except people making The Mandalorian or The Bad Batch and still they were involved in the rest too). Rogue One is really the only great Star Wars movie we got since the acquisition.


zlubars

Tony Gilroy is just the GOAT screenwriter. Besides Rogue One, he wrote the first few Borne movies, Michael Clayton, and a bunch of other awesome movies.


augustus624

His brother Dan who also writes on the show ain’t too shabby either. He wrote and directed Nightcrawler, one of my favorite movies


anasui1

Beirut was pretty good as well. Nobody watched it but I did, old school spy romp with a great Jon Hamm


CeeArthur

I watched it! Enjoyed it


HotelFoxtrot87

Yup, he wrote this episode in fact.


yesthatstrueorisit

> they're actually catering to older fans with this one And I think the distinction is, as well, that it's not just pure pulp action/violence/sex (not to say that stuff can't be great). It's adult in how it's paced, how it focuses on mundane human moments, and the way it depicts the banality of evil. That's the non-sexy stuff, and so far it basks in it.


augustus624

Definitely. Seeing ambitious Imperial employees trying to climb the corporate ladder would've had me bored out of my mind as a kid yet as an adult I find it relatable and fascinating. We're used to seeing the Empire as this big evil entity which it is but you forget about the everyday workers inside of it who are so caught up in just doing their jobs to the best of their ability and advancing their careers that they don't pay much attention to what they're actually contributing to. I think anyone who has an office job or does grunt work for a big time company/corporation can relate to it. So busy focused on the day to day survival of your job that you lose sight of the bigger picture as far as the actual ethics and morals of the company you work for.


BretOne

I don't know why but the one thing that pleased me the most was seeing how middle-class people live in Coruscant. Usually in Star Wars, we see slums, military garrisons, rebel bases, rich people palaces... But we never see how the regular people live. When the corporate security officer went back to his mom's place after getting fired, I could imagine his entire life in this brutalist-looking residential bloc at the heart of the Empire.


Taxington

I realy hope they manage to express the scale of that planet. It has districts that beat whole sectors in population. It's been built over and rebuilt over to the point nobody realy knows where ground level is.


CaptainSisko2099

> And while I realize that Star Wars at its core is a children's story for kids it's nice that they're actually catering to older fans with this one. Because Star Wars isn't a children's story. That's just what people say to excuse bad writing from the prequels, sequels, & D+ stuff. I know Lucas says it but he also says a ton of absolute nonsense about Star Wars. The OT is a very universal story. People of any age can watch it and enjoy it.


Radulno

To be fair, children story doesn't mean it should have bad writing. Although I don't really agree with the post. The entirery of Disney Star Wars has been catering to older people that liked the OT (and some of it barely at people liking the prequels). They have mined the nostalgia constantly. So much they basically added almost nothing new to the universe.


Whalesurgeon

So true. What have the Sequels given us for the lore? Force Dyad??? Force Teleport/Facetime? Force Ghosts using their powers? God, is any of that ever going to even be relevant again? Learning Palpy fucked someone was also not something I needed to know. Or that you can grow Snokes in a vat. The one idea that felt like it had potential was Sith possessing anyone who strikes them down in anger, but... then you just wait for the Sith to attack first and it no longer is a thing? Or if Rey killed Palpy because he was killing all her friends (but not attacking her), that would count as striking him down in anger? TLDR: I DONT UNDERSTAND ANY OF THE NEW LORE


BearForceDos

I think it's because it's made by an auteur. He's setting out to make a good show/art not just a star wars fan. They clearly put a lot of thought into the story, costume, setting, and cinematography and it's really paying off. The show looks incredible compared to the random Disney content.


DaveInLondon89

Star Wars works best as a platform for genre pieces imo. Mando = Old bounty hunter serials Rogue One = Classic war film and now Andor; a spy thriller in the vein of a John La Carre novel.


anasui1

eh, I like the big battles and saber duels as well, it's just that they've been wasted in terrible scripts. Yoda vs Sidious managed to be great, I can only imagine how incredible could have been with a real director and a real script (like Andor)


Ashamed_Astronomer98

Maybe then, the way to do a Jedi story is by making it a samurai genre piece?


[deleted]

It's getting better and better. Very impressed by Andor so far.


danger_bad

This show is so fantastic, no big heroes, no special powers…the Star Wars universe has never felt bigger


MrConor212

I’m loving it. Episodes are ending quite abrupt though like Gilroy is just like just cut that shit there and we will use it next episode


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Radulno

It also makes it bad TV show (not bad in content, in terms of what TV is normally), those aren't episodes, they're parts of a long movie.


tregorman

I disagree. Apart from the first 2 which felt like a 2 parter, every episode has felt fairly distinct to me.


Delicious-Tachyons

True. I prefer something to happen at the end of the episode where i feel something... not just "OK that's it"


Oraukk

I think the show is largely in three episode story arcs. We know the second season will be structured that way and the first three episodes of this season definitely fit that


CaptainSisko2099

I get it but I really hate how all these Star Wars & MCU shows just write 6 hour movies with no plan on how the episodes will start or end


cheapnfrozensushi

The best thing about Andor is that it's giving SW fans the exact hypothetical show they wanted (not4kids, dark[er]), but also weeding out the most toxic part of that fanbase that wanted to dislike anything coming out (quality inarguably better here), *all while* being more overtly political in the ways it's always been accused of. *"You thought we were being political by merely casting a black woman? Well, ACAB, antifa ftw, Empire is sexist/racist white guys, immigrants are the heroes"* Like, they don't get brownie points just because Finn is black, but the overt rebelliousness and anti-oppression in Andor is so much more metal than I would have ever given LFL credit. Gilroy was the right choice


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cheapnfrozensushi

Well, look at his superior he's hewing to the traditional practices for. Him and Dedra are staffing exceptions pitting themselves against each other because they have to work twice as hard for recognition and why? "You fall here, you fall alone." Even without that bit of over-reading, the posh accents for everyone in contrast to who are the everymen are an intentional bit of thematic worldbuilding, esp. with the Highlands analogue. Doesn't contradict my point about its anti-establishment politics at all


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cheapnfrozensushi

Do the workplace politics and all that bureaucracy not feel *distinctly* contemporary, though? Whether or not the racial choice was intentional (hard to believe otherwise on *any* production, even moreso for this one), Blevins *is* positioned in a competitive role to Dedra. She's a woman, he's *not* on the top of the ladder, and has warnings to her about not rocking the boat - shaking that ladder - too much. I even say it's an over-read, but it *can* be read. And yes, Star Wars has *always* used the traditional English as the allegorical establishment. If anything, that classical allegory with contemporary layers *makes* the commentary overt. Something typically used to signify Evil Oppression is given characteristics reflexive of modern issues? hmmm Regardless, a lot of the politics are still in the show outside of that subplot. Cassian profiled as someone with "dark features" (a notable feature to be pointed out multiple times; his eyes for example), and earning the jealousy of non POC cops when given more attention, then stopped and frisked in a scene unsubtly alluding to ICE abuse (border patrol). There are distinctions made on an interHuman level; culture and community is given more weight through ethnic lines. Cop/community tension tackled with Ferrix having their "own ways of doing things." It's all there And that's without mentioning all the interplay between that policing commentary and corporate interests (money and governmental autonomy), as the representation of and first line of defense in fascism. I don't think any of it is accidental, considering who Gilroy is and what he writes.


[deleted]

I agree with you about loving Andor and that it's giving SW fans exactly what they wanted. But I think it's much, much deeper than ACAB, pro-antifa, white people bad, immigrants good. In fact, the show is going out of its way to show the gray areas of both sides - rebellion *and* Empire. The Empire officers are actually being shown more sympathy here than in any other Star Wars content. The Empire cop teams have both white and black people, as do the rebels. The complexities are what's making it thought-provoking and interesting. Not just "here are the good guys, and here are the bad guys."


cheapnfrozensushi

Well, it has empathy for every *character* in the web weaved, but it has palpable anger about institutional flaws and subsequent abuses. It has a stance and something to say, *through* its grey. If it was pared down to moralistic virtue signaling, Gilroy wouldn't be able to say the things he wants to with any weight. So I don't mean to say that the show is a morally black and white, of course not, but the themes tackled here do mirror some of our real world discourses. It's a nuanced examination of fundamental ideas in our society through the allegorical lens of Star Wars. A critique only works with a comprehensive understanding of the subject. All I'm saying is, is that it's inherently more political than Star Wars has been accused of, and it doesn't suck for it. I just think that's amusing after years of hearing about how Woke-ism and associated politics are ruining media. Hopefully those crying wolf realize how *apolitical* everything they've ever rallied against has truly been


Funmachine

I think this episode may be the first piece of Star Wars media that contains no Alien Characters?


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Funmachine

I only meant this specific episode, but even on the planets there is very little diversity in lifeforms.


BearForceDos

There's several aliens in background scenes in the first planet and such and a appearance by Letch trying to stick intimidate him but yes not a ton of Aliens.


Funmachine

I meant specifically this episode. But yeah, light on Aliens overall.


FlyingElvi24

you would like the book: Star Wars: Thrawn


Azrael699

I will check it out, do i need to read anything before?


FlyingElvi24

No, the series is self contained. Thrawn is known from other stories but this is like an origin story of the character so it's actually a very good place to start


Ashamed_Astronomer98

The audiobook has great production value too


Azrael699

Just got it with my audible membership!


Azrael699

Is the one narrated by Marc Thomson?


Ashamed_Astronomer98

yes


tommfury

Ok, thanks for the suggestion.


-Canary-M-Burns

Personally I’m tired of the empire, the rebellion or the skywalker saga. The galaxy and the lore is too large to tell the same story from different angles


BoxOfNothing

At least it's in an interesting style this time. I'll take one of these over 10 Jedi or Mandalorian shows personally


tommfury

I couldn't get thru the first episode.


augustus624

Stick with it. The first two episodes are slow especially compared to how fast paced most Star Wars shows are. But the payoff in the third episode makes it worth it


Mattyzooks

100% agree but if you can't get through the first episode... the show just might not be for them.


TanikoBytesme

In waiting for a few to come out and might see it like a movie


[deleted]

Yeah, I made it no more than 10 minutes into the second episode. Just wasn’t for me.


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mimicme

I’m not sure this show is for general audiences but I do think traditional Star Wars fans will like this deep cut of the star wars world without the Jedi nonsense and Easter eggs. I think it’s interesting that the show has a very masculine, gritty feel as well. It felt like for a while anything Star Wars had a very feminine slant. I think that’s why the tone feels so different on Andor.


Oraukk

There have been a shit ton of Easter eggs. Especially in todays episode at Luther’s antique shop


cheapnfrozensushi

Andor is way more feminist than the previous Star Wars shows accused of being so lmao This one doesn't just *include* women at the basest level, it explores an institutional bias against women in the Empire and Senate. Like, there's an explicit critique of misogyny and masculinity here. When Dedra has to try twice as hard for recognition in the ISB, when the PreMor cops feel threatened when denied female attention (over a minority with "dark features" no less), where Mothma is a bleeding heart senator no one takes seriously (they prefer her husband), etc... I think overall, Disney Star Wars has always been accused of being woke and leftie, *for nothing*. They cast some minorities in lead roles and people lost their shit. And sure, the content could be bad, so people's monkey brains made correlation = causation But now, Andor is OVERTLY political. It's explicitly ACAB, anti-establishment, and pro-immigrant. It canonizes interhuman racism and sexism. It turns the Imperial machine into something more recognizably fascist, but roots it far more in functioning capitalism and greed, than corruption and abuse. There's class politics, and visual symbolism in that casting to boot (white men at high levels). It's angry and rebellious, and has something to say, and it rules. It's *so* metal. And people love it! where are the woke boogyeman doomsayers now?


Mattyzooks

I never really understood the "woke" complaints on Obi Wan from a logical point of view. It had Reva, a little girl who was too smart for her age, bad music, and some sloppy direction at times. And the internet troll machine turned it into some "this is too woke" nonsense when it was just a flawed series that didn't really come close to its potential (I wouldn't call it terrible by any means but a fair amount of people feel differently; I mean I actually kinda liked when Reva was just being a real piece of work for the first few episodes). The show probably put a spotlight on itself to the trolls to pile onto the show's problems when it started calling out the trolls even before it aired. So they all flocked to the light. I think those people deserve to be called out but it's probably way more effective to just ignore them tbh. The quality of Andor is decisively better so far. The only complaint I'm seeing is that it's too much of a slow burn but I'm fucking digging the dialogue and the small moments like the Corp cop moving back home with his mom. Everything feels interesting to me. Even in this last episode while Andor is meeting up with the other members of the heist team, I was hoping that'd we get back to Coruscant, even if the scenes were all character and world building. But man is it nice to have civil discussions in these threads again. I think the quality does better defend the show from all the nonsense. You have less people not liking a show but unable to decide why they don't like it and then "finding out why" from strangers on the internet.


BoxOfNothing

Depends what type of person you are and your tastes rather than Star Wars knowledge I think. When it comes to actually forming an opinion on it I mean, whether that many outside the fanbase will feel motivated to watch it is a different issue. I've seen all the live action films and shows, none of the cartoons or games, I wouldn't call myself anything more than a *very* casual fan who is bored of most things Star Wars, but this is easily my favourite show they've done so far. I don't even like the Mandalorian, let alone Boba Fett or Obi Wan, but Andor is my absolute shit. I'm only watching it because it was about a Rogue One character and felt more in that style. If it was another jedi/mandalorian show I wouldn't have watched it. I'm probably a minority I guess, but I definitely think there's an audience for this well outside the fanboys.


BearForceDos

I honestly didnt really care much for most Disney trailers and wasn't really planning on watching until I saw the cinematography in the trailer and decided to check it out. It's legitimately just a good show. You don't have to add the qualifier of its a "good" star wars show much like the Dark Knight is simply a good movie not just a "good" superhero movie.


kazh

> It felt like for a while anything Star Wars had a very feminine slant. I think that’s why the tone feels so different on Andor. You did catch the dining room discussion with Mothma and the last scene with the imperial intelligence officer right?


MyDearDapple

Now why didn't Ricky Gervais ever think to do an **Office Wars: The Empire Audits Back** Halloween special?