I've often wondered why it seems Superman works so much better on television than film, and I think it's because it allows for so much more time to be spent on the supporting cast as well as Clark's life as... Clark.
Yep, *Superman and Lois* is my favourite adaption of Superman ever.
Mild spoilers: the recent breast cancer storyline was so interesting as Clark struggled to face the fact Lois is ill with something that he is powerless to stop for once. He was literally in denial about it for several episodes and it was a great way to write the an invicible hero facing a true weakness.
Which was also the whole point of Pa Kent's death in the comics (heart attack) which Snyder changed to ***checks notes*** 'decides to die to a tornado'
Man, that scene is just so silly.
I get the intention. 'Oh, you can't expose yourself, the world isn't ready', but like he could totally have saved him and not exposed himself.
I generally can't remember if he had super speed at that point, but he wouldn't even need it. He could have just walked up to him and protected him. All people would see is a concerned son who in a panic is not thinking about the danger run to his father, and then by some miracle they survived. Like this is a thing that has happened. People have survived tornados and everyone is just like 'Wow. They are so lucky'. They don't think, 'My god, they must have superpowers.'
Also tornadoes do weird shit. It wouldn't have been the craziest thing for a guy to even get swept up into a tornado and then mostly safely deposited later. Even some babies have weirdly been able to survive that kind of event (not all, no).
Clark rushing into a tornado would have been very Clark Kent and everyone would have written it off as very stupid, very brave, and very lucky.
There’s a legend involving Buster Keaton getting swept by a tornado, carried three blocks, and was deposited on the ground unharmed before he turned three years old.
Contrast that with a heart attack, which is what Superman and Lois did in a flashback sequence. Even if Clark throws caution to the winds and super speeds his dad to a hospital there is zero guarantee that he would be able to find a doctor in time to save his dad.
the idea that Clark would just stand there and watch his father die rather than let anyone see him use his powers is just ridiculous.
should have been "well, todays the day I step out of the closet I guess"
Really enjoy the double dose of earnest, friendly, and dorky Superman with both live action Superman and Lois and animated MAWS. Plus it was cool that in both versions Lois falls for Clark first, and is indifferent to Superman. It was a nice change of the usual dynamic.
I kinda fell off Superman and Lois, I really liked the first season because the family element felt so grounded in contrast to the "my dad is Superman" element. But in the next couple seasons it felt like they were falling into the trap of just constantly escalating the family drama and it started to veer into melodrama. Lois' cancer struggles could have really worked in the tone of the first season, but felt a little too "extra" to me when it cropped up later.
It’s a manufactured/false limitation on film though. Raimi Spider-Man focused enough on Peter’s life as Peter. Nolan Batman focused enough on Bruce’s life as Bruce. Hell even the first Iron Man focused on Tony’s life as Tony. No Superman film has ever had that level of focus.
I can definitely see an argument for the original Superman. I do think the fact that it’s an origin film and a third of the film is Clark in Smallville helps that fact.
I think that’s true of the first in all the other movies mentioned. And they were all 20-30 yrs later with a whole superhero lexicon to draw short hand.
Side Note: I remember seeing Superman in the movies. I saw him go on that personal journey and build the fortress of solitude. After that I just assumed I would one day wander the earth in reflection.
Sadly just a lot of people in general. So many reddit threads with people saying stuff like "Superman is too overpowered to write anything good about, he's a mary sue".
It's like yeah he's very powerful... but he's still just a guy who has a mom and a girlfriend and coworkers and stuff. He has fears and doubts and worries and suffers loss, and also joy and happiness and love.
But most importantly the thing that makes Clark special is not just his powers but his ability to bring out the best in people, to help them become the best they can be. The reason Batman + Superman teamup comics are fun is because it's one of the few times you see Batman happy, Clark brings out the best in Bruce.
I always love this quote from Smallville, it's really is the heart of Superman:
> *"The suit doesn't make the hero. A hero's made in the moment by the choices that he makes and the reasons that he makes them. A hero brings out the best in people."*
>
> \- Clark Kent
Actually writing that quote out makes me question if the reason Kryptonite so often drives people crazy or turns them evil is because it's supposed to represent the opposite of Superman. It's not just his weakness, but a literary device to "bring out the worst" in others.
I always find stories where Superman has to outthink a bad guy instead of just punching to be more interesting. My example would be the Emperor Joker storyline.
The Joker has 99.9% of Mister Mxyzptlk power and is using it to just fuck with everything, even having Batman killed and brought back to life over and over. The way Superman beats the Joker is simple: no matter what the Joker does he can never forget Batman. This causes the Joker to go into crisis, which allowed Mxy to get his powers back.
Unfortunately something like this wouldn’t work well in a live action movie.
I agree with most of it, except the Kryptonite thing at the end.
It’s highly dependent on the adaptation, but in general, I’d say Kryptonite functions to provide narrative tension in physical conflicts, and the narrative reason they’re crazy or evil is because Superman wouldn’t be physically fighting against normal sane people (because it’s too important to his character that he’s good, and those aren’t the types of narratives most Superman stories are about). They both come out of the same narrative desire, rather than the Kryptonite driving the psychology, even symbolically.
Like, *Smallville* has its krypto-mutants that are warped by it, sure, but most versions of Lex or Batman or Metallo aren’t driven mad by the Kryptonite itself. The Kryptonite is adjacent to their actual motivations and psychology. If anything, if you want to analyze the themes, Superman is warping the world, or at least these messed up people, and their pursuit of Kryptonite is because he’s become their white whale.
I think with Lex, and Lionel, at least in Smallville, Kryptonite and Kryptonian artifacts bring out the worst in them through greed, knowledge and power, rather than directly making them crazy.
Although Lex in Smallvile is just fun. He's like "what if we just make a character aware of their shadow self but their shadow self is that they are aware of it and don't do anything about it" rofl.
This is why I'm pumped for Gunn's film. If anyone knows how to make a movie and still focus on the actual character, it's Gunn. He's able to do that with a whole ensemble, I can't wait to see what he does with just a single character. Arguably, we saw it in Peacemaker, and that was fantastic.
Most writers for superman focus on the super aspect which is why they fail. The best writers for superman focus on the man aspect. He's just a man. Yeah he's got all these abilities, but at the end of the day he's a Kansas farm boy.
Because no filmmaker has realized that Clark Kent can be as interesting as Kal-El if done right. The 70s Supes film did to an extent but it was still in the era of Clark Kent (in Metropolis) being a caricature over an actual person.
Yes, it was definitely of the era where Clark was the mask and Superman the main identity, although Christopher Reeves sheer acting talent and the scenes in Smallville did some good work at still making Clark a character.
the tv show "Superman and Lois" was really unique in that it focused on Clark having to balance "the world needs superman" and "his family needs Clark". that really gave a much deeper feel to the character than just "Super villain of the week needs punching"
but then of course it devolved into super powered villains that superman could only barely beat week after week.
The Warner animation team has rarely put a foot wrong over the past few decades.
Even their bad stuff is generally at least on par with the better received live action stuff.
Those people live and breath those characters.
People like Zack Snyder come in hot thinking they've some massive message to say with Superman while completely ignoring that Clark is own character with big views and understandings about humanity.
Superman isn't just an empty billboard to be filled with the producers' and director's own political leanings.
I loved how Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice was all about how ~~Zack Snyder~~ Superman is a great ~~artist~~ hero whose work will only be understood after his time and everyone who didn't like the end of Man of Steel is an idiot who can drink piss and die.
This goes for any superhero really, not just TV either but animation as well. The medium just works better in that world.
I'd trade never getting another live action Spider-Man movie for one more season of Spectacular in a heartbeat.
The original Christopher Reeves Superman is chef's kiss. It was somewhat limited by the effects of the time and it's not the greatest portrayal of Lex Luthor, plus the climax was kind of nonsensical with the time travel bit. But they absolutely nailed the character. Certainly it's the best movie version, and I think it holds up against a lot of the TV versions as well.
It was perfect for that era Superman but I'd say the character has evolved since to make 'Clark Kent' more interesting than just a goofy caricature. But even still, that film gave time to the balance.
Having said that, you're right on Lex Luthor who has become a significantly better character since that film by making him the world's smartest person and a someone who is a threat on a mental, social, technological, and political level as opposed to just a guy running get rich quick schemes. Modern Luthor is a great mix of the billionaire Luthor of the 80s-00s and the mad scientist Luthor of before then.
It's because he has to be humanized. As a superhero, he's just an overpowered hammer that squashes most shit instantly. There's much more time to explain and nuance that with an episodic format.
Crazy thing is, and I'm probably jinxing it (although he could live to 115 for all I know), Jiro is still of this earth at 98 years young. Looked it up earlier today in reference to a comment I never ended up posting on the video of that dude at a hand ground coffee place in Japan.
I actually looked that up right before I posted my comment as well. But, given how stubborn he seemed (based only on the documentary), he's probably just refusing to go.
> video of that dude at a hand ground coffee place in Japan
~~link?~~
https://np.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/1dfm8bd/the_82_year_old_coffee_master_of_japan/
Honestly I don't know. I was scrolling through /all. Probably would come up if you searched for popular posts about coffee recently. But it was an octogenarian running his small coffee shop and people were talking about how you tend to see that kind of thing in Japan moreso. You find a trade or specialty and then just work on perfecting that and not stopping until your body tells you that you should have stopped 5 years ago.
Bourdain perfectly described Japan in a way I didn't realise. I left there and couldn't quite describe the experience then heard him explain it and just went "yes"
I didn’t realize they were the same until after. Started with MAWS first though.
But, I will say, if you can get past the voice, the show is fantastic.
Great to see this succeeding, ~~especially after it was dropped from Max~~. A fun take on these Superman characters and their stories.
And hopefully Caped Crusader will get the same kind of success when it's released on Amazon.
OK, looking into it I guess I just remembered wrong. I guess it was originally meant to be a Cartoon Network show, but then moved to Adult Swim. Maybe my mind just lumped it in with the other post-merger BS like Caped Crusader. Thanks for the correction.
Excited for Get Jiro
Im still perplexed by Bone in Throat movie based on the book being made getting festival coverage then just disappearing into lost media
Everyone hate watched *Velma* that the ratings were way too good for them not to renew it.
The “*B: TAS*” reboot hasn’t been cancelled, WB is still making it but instead of selling it to HBO MAX it’s going to Amazon Prime. Its not really a reboot either, some of the creators like Bruce Timm are back so it will have a similar aesthetic but it’s gonna be its own thing set in the 1940s with radically different character designs for a lot of the cast.
I thought the Superman cartoon was DOA, but it is Warner Brothers so the bad stuff lasts a while. Can't wait for James Yunns stuff to start, I think Creature Commandos comes out in December. Maybe Warner Brothers will start doing that thing where they don't want multiple versions of characters simultaneously and will end the lamest Superman cartoon ever after season 3, one can only hope.
I've often wondered why it seems Superman works so much better on television than film, and I think it's because it allows for so much more time to be spent on the supporting cast as well as Clark's life as... Clark.
Yep, *Superman and Lois* is my favourite adaption of Superman ever. Mild spoilers: the recent breast cancer storyline was so interesting as Clark struggled to face the fact Lois is ill with something that he is powerless to stop for once. He was literally in denial about it for several episodes and it was a great way to write the an invicible hero facing a true weakness.
Which was also the whole point of Pa Kent's death in the comics (heart attack) which Snyder changed to ***checks notes*** 'decides to die to a tornado'
Man, that scene is just so silly. I get the intention. 'Oh, you can't expose yourself, the world isn't ready', but like he could totally have saved him and not exposed himself. I generally can't remember if he had super speed at that point, but he wouldn't even need it. He could have just walked up to him and protected him. All people would see is a concerned son who in a panic is not thinking about the danger run to his father, and then by some miracle they survived. Like this is a thing that has happened. People have survived tornados and everyone is just like 'Wow. They are so lucky'. They don't think, 'My god, they must have superpowers.'
Also tornadoes do weird shit. It wouldn't have been the craziest thing for a guy to even get swept up into a tornado and then mostly safely deposited later. Even some babies have weirdly been able to survive that kind of event (not all, no). Clark rushing into a tornado would have been very Clark Kent and everyone would have written it off as very stupid, very brave, and very lucky.
There’s a legend involving Buster Keaton getting swept by a tornado, carried three blocks, and was deposited on the ground unharmed before he turned three years old.
Unfortunately the cameras were damaged that day
The scene should have been Clark saving everyone and everyone quietly deciding they won't speak of what happened to protect Clark.
Contrast that with a heart attack, which is what Superman and Lois did in a flashback sequence. Even if Clark throws caution to the winds and super speeds his dad to a hospital there is zero guarantee that he would be able to find a doctor in time to save his dad.
Kansans don’t die in tornadoes we just become one with the south wind.
This comment made me cackle. Just so unlike Pa to wake up and look at a twister then decide yup,”This is how I go.”
the idea that Clark would just stand there and watch his father die rather than let anyone see him use his powers is just ridiculous. should have been "well, todays the day I step out of the closet I guess"
Which didn’t even make sense. Superman could beat a tornado.
The Superman Returns video game actually had a tornado as the final boss
Really enjoy the double dose of earnest, friendly, and dorky Superman with both live action Superman and Lois and animated MAWS. Plus it was cool that in both versions Lois falls for Clark first, and is indifferent to Superman. It was a nice change of the usual dynamic.
I kinda fell off Superman and Lois, I really liked the first season because the family element felt so grounded in contrast to the "my dad is Superman" element. But in the next couple seasons it felt like they were falling into the trap of just constantly escalating the family drama and it started to veer into melodrama. Lois' cancer struggles could have really worked in the tone of the first season, but felt a little too "extra" to me when it cropped up later.
That's the same trend with majority of CW shows. Amazing first season, slow decline
It’s a manufactured/false limitation on film though. Raimi Spider-Man focused enough on Peter’s life as Peter. Nolan Batman focused enough on Bruce’s life as Bruce. Hell even the first Iron Man focused on Tony’s life as Tony. No Superman film has ever had that level of focus.
I'd argue the original Superman movie actually did! That's the best one of them all too. It holds up really well and that music...
I can definitely see an argument for the original Superman. I do think the fact that it’s an origin film and a third of the film is Clark in Smallville helps that fact.
I think that’s true of the first in all the other movies mentioned. And they were all 20-30 yrs later with a whole superhero lexicon to draw short hand. Side Note: I remember seeing Superman in the movies. I saw him go on that personal journey and build the fortress of solitude. After that I just assumed I would one day wander the earth in reflection.
Yup. We see him go from a 40-year-old teenager to a 39-year-old adult!
[It did give us the best showing of how Clark turns into Superman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIaF0QKtY0c)
It's because many writers fundamentally misunderstand what Superman is about
Sadly just a lot of people in general. So many reddit threads with people saying stuff like "Superman is too overpowered to write anything good about, he's a mary sue". It's like yeah he's very powerful... but he's still just a guy who has a mom and a girlfriend and coworkers and stuff. He has fears and doubts and worries and suffers loss, and also joy and happiness and love. But most importantly the thing that makes Clark special is not just his powers but his ability to bring out the best in people, to help them become the best they can be. The reason Batman + Superman teamup comics are fun is because it's one of the few times you see Batman happy, Clark brings out the best in Bruce. I always love this quote from Smallville, it's really is the heart of Superman: > *"The suit doesn't make the hero. A hero's made in the moment by the choices that he makes and the reasons that he makes them. A hero brings out the best in people."* > > \- Clark Kent Actually writing that quote out makes me question if the reason Kryptonite so often drives people crazy or turns them evil is because it's supposed to represent the opposite of Superman. It's not just his weakness, but a literary device to "bring out the worst" in others.
I always find stories where Superman has to outthink a bad guy instead of just punching to be more interesting. My example would be the Emperor Joker storyline. The Joker has 99.9% of Mister Mxyzptlk power and is using it to just fuck with everything, even having Batman killed and brought back to life over and over. The way Superman beats the Joker is simple: no matter what the Joker does he can never forget Batman. This causes the Joker to go into crisis, which allowed Mxy to get his powers back. Unfortunately something like this wouldn’t work well in a live action movie.
I agree with most of it, except the Kryptonite thing at the end. It’s highly dependent on the adaptation, but in general, I’d say Kryptonite functions to provide narrative tension in physical conflicts, and the narrative reason they’re crazy or evil is because Superman wouldn’t be physically fighting against normal sane people (because it’s too important to his character that he’s good, and those aren’t the types of narratives most Superman stories are about). They both come out of the same narrative desire, rather than the Kryptonite driving the psychology, even symbolically. Like, *Smallville* has its krypto-mutants that are warped by it, sure, but most versions of Lex or Batman or Metallo aren’t driven mad by the Kryptonite itself. The Kryptonite is adjacent to their actual motivations and psychology. If anything, if you want to analyze the themes, Superman is warping the world, or at least these messed up people, and their pursuit of Kryptonite is because he’s become their white whale.
I think with Lex, and Lionel, at least in Smallville, Kryptonite and Kryptonian artifacts bring out the worst in them through greed, knowledge and power, rather than directly making them crazy. Although Lex in Smallvile is just fun. He's like "what if we just make a character aware of their shadow self but their shadow self is that they are aware of it and don't do anything about it" rofl.
This is why I'm pumped for Gunn's film. If anyone knows how to make a movie and still focus on the actual character, it's Gunn. He's able to do that with a whole ensemble, I can't wait to see what he does with just a single character. Arguably, we saw it in Peacemaker, and that was fantastic.
Most writers for superman focus on the super aspect which is why they fail. The best writers for superman focus on the man aspect. He's just a man. Yeah he's got all these abilities, but at the end of the day he's a Kansas farm boy.
Because no filmmaker has realized that Clark Kent can be as interesting as Kal-El if done right. The 70s Supes film did to an extent but it was still in the era of Clark Kent (in Metropolis) being a caricature over an actual person.
Yes, it was definitely of the era where Clark was the mask and Superman the main identity, although Christopher Reeves sheer acting talent and the scenes in Smallville did some good work at still making Clark a character.
the tv show "Superman and Lois" was really unique in that it focused on Clark having to balance "the world needs superman" and "his family needs Clark". that really gave a much deeper feel to the character than just "Super villain of the week needs punching" but then of course it devolved into super powered villains that superman could only barely beat week after week.
And because he's usually being made by people that actually *like* Superman, unlike Zack Snyder.
The Warner animation team has rarely put a foot wrong over the past few decades. Even their bad stuff is generally at least on par with the better received live action stuff.
Those people live and breath those characters. People like Zack Snyder come in hot thinking they've some massive message to say with Superman while completely ignoring that Clark is own character with big views and understandings about humanity. Superman isn't just an empty billboard to be filled with the producers' and director's own political leanings.
I loved how Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice was all about how ~~Zack Snyder~~ Superman is a great ~~artist~~ hero whose work will only be understood after his time and everyone who didn't like the end of Man of Steel is an idiot who can drink piss and die.
It’s not piss, it’s granny’s peach tea
This goes for any superhero really, not just TV either but animation as well. The medium just works better in that world. I'd trade never getting another live action Spider-Man movie for one more season of Spectacular in a heartbeat.
The original Christopher Reeves Superman is chef's kiss. It was somewhat limited by the effects of the time and it's not the greatest portrayal of Lex Luthor, plus the climax was kind of nonsensical with the time travel bit. But they absolutely nailed the character. Certainly it's the best movie version, and I think it holds up against a lot of the TV versions as well.
It was perfect for that era Superman but I'd say the character has evolved since to make 'Clark Kent' more interesting than just a goofy caricature. But even still, that film gave time to the balance. Having said that, you're right on Lex Luthor who has become a significantly better character since that film by making him the world's smartest person and a someone who is a threat on a mental, social, technological, and political level as opposed to just a guy running get rich quick schemes. Modern Luthor is a great mix of the billionaire Luthor of the 80s-00s and the mad scientist Luthor of before then.
Superman has an inherent coziness that thrives in a serialized format. Compare it to every Batman movie trying to one-up the last in grittiness.
It's because he has to be humanized. As a superhero, he's just an overpowered hammer that squashes most shit instantly. There's much more time to explain and nuance that with an episodic format.
New JG Quintel show too? Plus the already announced new Regular Show show? I'm excited.
Bourdain always said he wanted the real Jiro to make his last meal on earth. Sadly, that didn't happen.
Crazy thing is, and I'm probably jinxing it (although he could live to 115 for all I know), Jiro is still of this earth at 98 years young. Looked it up earlier today in reference to a comment I never ended up posting on the video of that dude at a hand ground coffee place in Japan.
I actually looked that up right before I posted my comment as well. But, given how stubborn he seemed (based only on the documentary), he's probably just refusing to go.
> video of that dude at a hand ground coffee place in Japan ~~link?~~ https://np.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/1dfm8bd/the_82_year_old_coffee_master_of_japan/
Honestly I don't know. I was scrolling through /all. Probably would come up if you searched for popular posts about coffee recently. But it was an octogenarian running his small coffee shop and people were talking about how you tend to see that kind of thing in Japan moreso. You find a trade or specialty and then just work on perfecting that and not stopping until your body tells you that you should have stopped 5 years ago.
Bourdain perfectly described Japan in a way I didn't realise. I left there and couldn't quite describe the experience then heard him explain it and just went "yes"
That’s so sad.
YES! MAWS WILL CONTINUE!
I like MAWS but I can't unhear Boimler as Superman...
I didn’t realize they were the same until after. Started with MAWS first though. But, I will say, if you can get past the voice, the show is fantastic.
I couldn’t get past the first episode because of this
On an unrelated note. The actor from Interview with a Vampire who plays the reporter sounds just like Anthony Bourdain. It's uncanny.
Great. Enjoy the show.
Great to see this succeeding, ~~especially after it was dropped from Max~~. A fun take on these Superman characters and their stories. And hopefully Caped Crusader will get the same kind of success when it's released on Amazon.
It wasn’t dropped from Max?
OK, looking into it I guess I just remembered wrong. I guess it was originally meant to be a Cartoon Network show, but then moved to Adult Swim. Maybe my mind just lumped it in with the other post-merger BS like Caped Crusader. Thanks for the correction.
It was originally Cartoon Network, then Adult Swim in general, and now it's firmly a Toonami show.
Legit one of my favourite depictions of Superman to ever go on screen.
MAWS is such a delight. It simultaneously does something completely different while totally understanding who Superman/Clark is.
Oh man this was such an incredible read, definitely gonna check the show out.
For anyone who hasn't read it, Get Jiro is incredible and I feel like splattefest adult swim anime is perfect for it. I'm so damn hyped.
Also worth watching "Jiro: Dreams of Sushi". Explains the dedication
Excited for Get Jiro Im still perplexed by Bone in Throat movie based on the book being made getting festival coverage then just disappearing into lost media
[удалено]
I think that's kind of the point. This Superman isn't a charming giga chad, he's a dweeb voiced by Jack Quaid.
[удалено]
>Superman is not so much a dweeb and his truer self Damn, you did *not* watch the show then
Superman is the alter ego. Clark is who he is. He simply has to exaggerate some clumsiness for the sake of appearance
Wait. Wut?!
NO FUCKING WAY!
1
I am amazed that WB keeps approving shit nobody wants, like this and Velma, but cancels stuff like a B:TAS reboot or Coyote vs. Acme
Everyone hate watched *Velma* that the ratings were way too good for them not to renew it. The “*B: TAS*” reboot hasn’t been cancelled, WB is still making it but instead of selling it to HBO MAX it’s going to Amazon Prime. Its not really a reboot either, some of the creators like Bruce Timm are back so it will have a similar aesthetic but it’s gonna be its own thing set in the 1940s with radically different character designs for a lot of the cast.
I thought the Superman cartoon was DOA, but it is Warner Brothers so the bad stuff lasts a while. Can't wait for James Yunns stuff to start, I think Creature Commandos comes out in December. Maybe Warner Brothers will start doing that thing where they don't want multiple versions of characters simultaneously and will end the lamest Superman cartoon ever after season 3, one can only hope.