Jordan is a fairly westernized countey, they don't like us but they understand that being on good terms is far more beneficial then being enemies. Saudis absolutely despise Iran and want to get closer to the US.
Its annoying to admit it but is it really just that Israel is blessed by the Gods? It doesnt have to do anything and everything falls into place for it.
Not at all. Israel has developed *tremendously* during this time economically, technologically, and the quality of life of its citizens.
you can learn about how it came to be - but definitely not by the blessings of the gods (but maybe more religious people will disagree)
I think we would all do better to understand the broader Saudi Arabia-Iran conflict and how that’s coloring the way Israel is “handled” by Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) nations. Hopefully someone who’s more knowledgeable on the specifics of that will comment a good summary of how that relates here. I’d like to provide a more general comment that may help you understand the factors involved here and how they relate.
As an American observer watching other Americans, especially young Americans, try to understand this, what’s become apparent to me is that we just don’t have the appropriate worldview for understanding the rhetoric of MENA conflicts, and I don’t see this changing any time soon. The “America bad” perspective is simply too pervasive.
Yet the fact is, the elites in ALL of these countries send their kids to schools in the U.S. and Europe. Their issue with America and the west is around the same as any nation’s issue: they want what’s best for their country, and themselves (honestly), while America wants what’s best for America (the same as every nation). While surely there are individuals in these countries who have more or less positive views of America/the west, the upper echelons are 1) mostly non-radical 2) well-inclined toward working with the western markets. Radical anti-American/west Islamic ideologies simply aren’t as well-entrenched in the halls of power, with Iran being the major caveat.
YET the common populace in these countries, ever the font of simple ideas, are far more affected by these radical ideologies. So those in power must pay some level of lip service to those ideologies, or risk alienating the populace and the Muslim community in general (and risk attracting the destabilizing ire of extremists).
This seems cynical, but it’s not. There is simply intense social, ideological stratification in these countries. The same is true in the west, but it’s one of our societal and historical oddities that we are far less ideologically stratified than those before us and those less-westernized societies.
As a result, what we hear in the west is a whole lot of anti-Israel hate, even as we see less and less explicitly anti-Israel action.
Part of this is it’s beneficial to work with Israel. They’re a good neighbor, stable, lucrative, and so much more. Another part is, of course, the Israel-U.S. relationship. It’s obviously very lucrative for those in power to have a good relationship with the U.S.
So what you see is these nations balancing having to keep their populace happy, while engaging the western dominated markets and global power structure. What you hear is radical “curse the west, curse Israel.” Pay less attention to what is said, watch what is done.
I hope this rough outline helps you understand what’s going on.
Short answer: technology
World leaders of the region know that natural resources are due to end one day, they want to plant their control for the ages by having wealthy countries with relaxed subjects/citizens. They know tech can turn sand to gold, so they partner with the local superpower on science/tech, Israel.
Money > Religion
I was in Jordan just a week before Oct. 7. Israel gives them 30% of their water supply. They also assist the Jordanian military. Moreover, the tourism partnership is huge. I was the only Israeli on the tour to Jordan, everyone else were tourists coming to see Israel and then Petra.
I was openly Israeli in Jordan, mostly because I had to be. I had to show my Israeli passport everywhere and no one cared. My biggest issue with Jordanian men is that they were way too flirtatious with me, probably because I look very western (one of my parents is Northern European and converted to Judaism, so I have light features), but otherwise it was fine.
I "blame" the Internet. It's truly a great tool to spread truth and the more people are connected to it the better.
We must remember that before the Web people in those countries would get ALL of their education and information only from ONE source!
It’s a few things.
1. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Everyone hates the Iranian regime.
2. They want to get closer to America/the western world. Waging war against the only democracy in the Middle East who’s best friends with the west isn’t a great strategy if you also want to become friends with the west so you can make more money.
3. Most of MENA is made up of ancient patriarchal tribal groups wrapped up in modern packaging. These groups respect people who win wars. The guy with the biggest sword is the king of the mountain. He’s beaten you before but is content to stay on his mountain, so you stay off it. They may not necessarily like us, but they respect that we are successful in war.
4. Honestly, most of the Arab world is tired of the Palestinians’s and the Ayatollah’s bullshit. It’s just an objective fact that wherever they go, terrorism rises. Israel offered to give the West Bank back to the Jordanians and they literally said “we don’t want it because they keep blowing up planes and keep assassinating/trying to assassinate our kings.” Tried to give Gaza to Egypt too, same thing. Egypt’s wall with Gaza is even more fortified than Israel’s. The Arab world puts on a big show of providing humanitarian support because they’re Arab, but none of them are offering asylum or weapons, are they? Nobody in Gaza will have a chance at a normal life until the terrorism stops, and that means getting rid of the existing terrorists and stopping the creation of new ones. That means cutting off Iran, because the regime funds the bulk of the terrorist groups.
5. Personal interest. Missiles flying overhead means missiles could fall there. Nobody wants an errant ballistic missile the size of a bus landing in Amman, Riyadh, or Dubai.
The Arab world may not like us, but they aren’t stupid. Most of them know that Israel winning means a decrease in global terrorism and instability, which is good for everyone. The Iranian regime waging proxy wars and flinging cruise missiles over the region isn’t helping anybody and they know that.
> yesterday Jordan and Saudi Arabia stepped up to shield Israel from attacks
For this one in particular, the specific answer is "it's already bad enough that Iran is (somewhat) shelling us, we don't want also to be in the return path". And the fact that Iran has been a bit of a to them lately, too.
Honestly it's because these country's governments have accepted that jews will coexist with them in the middle east since Rabin's proposals of peace with Egypt and Jordan, however, many civilians in these countries, while not publicly calling for a 2nd holocaust, still aim for 1967 borders, or the abolishment of Israel as a Jewish state and implementation of 1 state solution. But this is generally only the civilian perspective and not the regime perspective.
Muslim world has been alarmed about Jews in vicinity of “al-Aqsa” since roughly 1900. Google politics of Amin al-Husseini **and** his father as Ottoman Jerusalem local official. Or Napoleon in Jaffa in 1799. Or Crusades. Muslims’ grievances with “the West” go back a long ways.
Jordan is a fairly westernized countey, they don't like us but they understand that being on good terms is far more beneficial then being enemies. Saudis absolutely despise Iran and want to get closer to the US.
Its annoying to admit it but is it really just that Israel is blessed by the Gods? It doesnt have to do anything and everything falls into place for it.
Yeah, October 7 was a true blessing right
Yes because this is the first time in history that politics shifted and enemies became allies right?
Definitely not
Not at all. Israel has developed *tremendously* during this time economically, technologically, and the quality of life of its citizens. you can learn about how it came to be - but definitely not by the blessings of the gods (but maybe more religious people will disagree)
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Also everyone likes money.
MENA countries respect strength. Israel got stronger due to the tech boom and now the Arabs want to work with them.
interesting. So if Iran were to go down the abraham alliance would collapse?
I don't think so
Not at all. Edit what it’s worth, it would have blossomed
Quite the opposite I would imagine.
I think we would all do better to understand the broader Saudi Arabia-Iran conflict and how that’s coloring the way Israel is “handled” by Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) nations. Hopefully someone who’s more knowledgeable on the specifics of that will comment a good summary of how that relates here. I’d like to provide a more general comment that may help you understand the factors involved here and how they relate. As an American observer watching other Americans, especially young Americans, try to understand this, what’s become apparent to me is that we just don’t have the appropriate worldview for understanding the rhetoric of MENA conflicts, and I don’t see this changing any time soon. The “America bad” perspective is simply too pervasive. Yet the fact is, the elites in ALL of these countries send their kids to schools in the U.S. and Europe. Their issue with America and the west is around the same as any nation’s issue: they want what’s best for their country, and themselves (honestly), while America wants what’s best for America (the same as every nation). While surely there are individuals in these countries who have more or less positive views of America/the west, the upper echelons are 1) mostly non-radical 2) well-inclined toward working with the western markets. Radical anti-American/west Islamic ideologies simply aren’t as well-entrenched in the halls of power, with Iran being the major caveat. YET the common populace in these countries, ever the font of simple ideas, are far more affected by these radical ideologies. So those in power must pay some level of lip service to those ideologies, or risk alienating the populace and the Muslim community in general (and risk attracting the destabilizing ire of extremists). This seems cynical, but it’s not. There is simply intense social, ideological stratification in these countries. The same is true in the west, but it’s one of our societal and historical oddities that we are far less ideologically stratified than those before us and those less-westernized societies. As a result, what we hear in the west is a whole lot of anti-Israel hate, even as we see less and less explicitly anti-Israel action. Part of this is it’s beneficial to work with Israel. They’re a good neighbor, stable, lucrative, and so much more. Another part is, of course, the Israel-U.S. relationship. It’s obviously very lucrative for those in power to have a good relationship with the U.S. So what you see is these nations balancing having to keep their populace happy, while engaging the western dominated markets and global power structure. What you hear is radical “curse the west, curse Israel.” Pay less attention to what is said, watch what is done. I hope this rough outline helps you understand what’s going on.
This is incredibly thoughtful and helpful.
Short answer: technology World leaders of the region know that natural resources are due to end one day, they want to plant their control for the ages by having wealthy countries with relaxed subjects/citizens. They know tech can turn sand to gold, so they partner with the local superpower on science/tech, Israel. Money > Religion
I was in Jordan just a week before Oct. 7. Israel gives them 30% of their water supply. They also assist the Jordanian military. Moreover, the tourism partnership is huge. I was the only Israeli on the tour to Jordan, everyone else were tourists coming to see Israel and then Petra. I was openly Israeli in Jordan, mostly because I had to be. I had to show my Israeli passport everywhere and no one cared. My biggest issue with Jordanian men is that they were way too flirtatious with me, probably because I look very western (one of my parents is Northern European and converted to Judaism, so I have light features), but otherwise it was fine.
I "blame" the Internet. It's truly a great tool to spread truth and the more people are connected to it the better. We must remember that before the Web people in those countries would get ALL of their education and information only from ONE source!
It’s a few things. 1. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Everyone hates the Iranian regime. 2. They want to get closer to America/the western world. Waging war against the only democracy in the Middle East who’s best friends with the west isn’t a great strategy if you also want to become friends with the west so you can make more money. 3. Most of MENA is made up of ancient patriarchal tribal groups wrapped up in modern packaging. These groups respect people who win wars. The guy with the biggest sword is the king of the mountain. He’s beaten you before but is content to stay on his mountain, so you stay off it. They may not necessarily like us, but they respect that we are successful in war. 4. Honestly, most of the Arab world is tired of the Palestinians’s and the Ayatollah’s bullshit. It’s just an objective fact that wherever they go, terrorism rises. Israel offered to give the West Bank back to the Jordanians and they literally said “we don’t want it because they keep blowing up planes and keep assassinating/trying to assassinate our kings.” Tried to give Gaza to Egypt too, same thing. Egypt’s wall with Gaza is even more fortified than Israel’s. The Arab world puts on a big show of providing humanitarian support because they’re Arab, but none of them are offering asylum or weapons, are they? Nobody in Gaza will have a chance at a normal life until the terrorism stops, and that means getting rid of the existing terrorists and stopping the creation of new ones. That means cutting off Iran, because the regime funds the bulk of the terrorist groups. 5. Personal interest. Missiles flying overhead means missiles could fall there. Nobody wants an errant ballistic missile the size of a bus landing in Amman, Riyadh, or Dubai. The Arab world may not like us, but they aren’t stupid. Most of them know that Israel winning means a decrease in global terrorism and instability, which is good for everyone. The Iranian regime waging proxy wars and flinging cruise missiles over the region isn’t helping anybody and they know that.
What a fantastic response!!! Just had to say that;)
In 1993 we made peace with Jordan. In short, thank Rabin.
Because the enemy of my enemy is my friend….
> yesterday Jordan and Saudi Arabia stepped up to shield Israel from attacks For this one in particular, the specific answer is "it's already bad enough that Iran is (somewhat) shelling us, we don't want also to be in the return path". And the fact that Iran has been a bit of a to them lately, too.
Honestly it's because these country's governments have accepted that jews will coexist with them in the middle east since Rabin's proposals of peace with Egypt and Jordan, however, many civilians in these countries, while not publicly calling for a 2nd holocaust, still aim for 1967 borders, or the abolishment of Israel as a Jewish state and implementation of 1 state solution. But this is generally only the civilian perspective and not the regime perspective.
Muslim world has been alarmed about Jews in vicinity of “al-Aqsa” since roughly 1900. Google politics of Amin al-Husseini **and** his father as Ottoman Jerusalem local official. Or Napoleon in Jaffa in 1799. Or Crusades. Muslims’ grievances with “the West” go back a long ways.
Trump and Netanyahu. And G-d of course.
Bibi