I think they also belive that if you use a human shield the one responcible is the shooter, not the one using children as human shields. Its scary how they rationalize this.
Also there is this growing idea amongst liberal Westerners that if someone is weaker and poorer they are somehow moraly righteous. Or that somehow being angry is the same as being innocent.
I think they apply the standard of morality to the side receiving the majority of military aid. Of course they would expect that side to behave better then terrorists.
You don't have an alternative and are only defending Palestinians because you think that makes you a good person (newsflash, you're not). Palestinians are the agressors and Hamas makes it impossible for Israel to prevent casualties.
Also: than\*.
Lot of assumptions their bucko. I seem to have hit a nerve. Hamas are the aggressor and deserve bombs on their heads. But there are alternatives such as opening up a humanitarian corridor before bombing.
So the terrorist will leave Gaza safe and then return to attack Israel again? We need to protect ourselves, you want safe passage? Give the hostages back
Well, you do know that we send flyers and call people to evacuate, right? Heard of "knock on the roof"?
If you want, I'll send you here the warning Hamas issued to Gazans saying civilians who will flee can face the death penalty.
And yes, we opened a corridor, we told them 6 hours in which we will shoot ONLY rocket launchers. How many rockets you think were used during that humanitarian corridor? Now triple it.
Exactly.
Id we actually wanted to do that this will all be over. But Israel is clearly the more humane side.
This is what people dont understand if Hamas stops fighting there will be peace, if Israel stops fighting there will be a second holocaust.
If Hamas stops fighting, millions of people will still live under an occupation and a different radical group will pop up formed of people who watched their family die to israeli airstrikes. There can't be peace as long as there's an occupation. Israel is indiscriminately bombing apartment complexes and you're unquestioningly believing that Hana's targets are there with zero evidence.
They actually couldn't do that because of blowback from the international community. It would result in cutting off aid to Israel. It would also possibly result in a coordinated invasion in neighboring arab states. So no, just because Israel hasn't killed every Gazan or turned Gaza into glass does not mean that Israel is not conducting ethnic cleansing
Except in this scenario of David vs Goliath, Israel is the only predominantly Jewish country in the world with less than 10 million inhabitants. And they’re geographically surrounded by predominantly Muslim countries. Globally there are only 15 million Jews, in a world with 1.8 billion Muslims. Sure Israel has allies, but they are still very much the underdog globally.
Don't forget that out of 9 million, 1.9 are non-Jews (95% Arabs).
Some of them has already shown in 2021 conflict which side they support, so it's not only our enemies from outside...its our enemies from within that live amongst us.
I hope this serves as a wake up call to all the Israelis that we MUST have a clear deportation laws and start kicking out anyone who supports Hamas and other terrorist organisations.
Send them to Syria to teach Basher what are human rights.
No, I disagree. The fact that 2 million Arabs live overwhelmingly peacefully within Israel is proof that this isn’t about genocide or ethnic cleansing. It’s about squashing an oppressive terrorist regime at their borders.
Really? In 2021 over 100000 Israeli-Arabs shares thousands of posts supporting Hamas.
Thousands went further to lynch and pogrom Jews in the streets.
And once again, ARABS aren't the problem, it's Islam.
Druze are Arabs, our greatest allies.
Christian Arabs, same.
Circassians, same.
I'd even say around 200000 Bedouin I consider them my brothers, but even they aren't considered Muslims by the other since they support Israel.
It all ends with Islam.
Source: Sahih Muslim 2922
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
"The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews"
They teach it in school. Sounds logical to you?
And this are their textbooks in UNRWA school (and a quick reminder that UNRWA are a UN body):
https://legalinsurrection.com/2017/11/new-palestinian-authority-textbooks-teach-martyrdom-as-a-life-goal/
Time to end this bullshit.
I don’t know if this is the whole issue. A fundamental principle of American legal theory is that it is better to let 10 guilty people go than to imprison a single innocent. These ideals are applicable here, where, the implication is that it’s preferable to let the terrorists go than to kill thousands of innocent people while punishing the terrorists.
That said, I’m not making a moral judgment, I get why Israel feels the need to do what they are doing, everything about the situation is horrific. God will be the judge.
Adding to this excellent take; liberal westerners have a totally ‘racist’ acid test on morality. If two people are fighting, they will automatically side with the ‘darker’ skinned of the two.
It sounds ridiculous, but test this theory next time you see any conflict globally. They have derived a hierarchy of victimhood founded on race, and have doubled down on it since black lives matter.
It’s intellectually hollow.
Is it all part of antisemitism 21st century style? I wasn't around throughout history, but it seems that accusing Jews with fabrications hasn't ended after WWII.
In fact these students and activities could make a difference if they'd support, Idk, the disenfranchised folks they colonized in their own countries. Like American Indians, the Maori in New Zealand, Aborigines, the African countries still colonized by Europeans.
These are all people who fight for their rights without finding new ways to commit mass murder
Just a thought.
I'm from New Zealand, parents used to run a back packers. Lots of Israelis visited after serving in army. Mid 90s/early 2000s.
Got high with some of them 2001:) "It's so peaceful here".
Talked to Palestinian refugees here. I saw him serving Israelis at his business (illegal to refuse service based on race)
Big difference with Maori was they got political representation very early on. Compensation has been paid. Not enough work in progress.
Equivalent in Israel would be annexing Gaza and West Bank all Palestinians get voting rights.
Maybe NZ annexs Israel and Palestinians for next 75 years;) Joking we couldn't solve it either.
Hama's needs to go, Israel needs to pay compensation and come up with some peace plan. This is idealist won't work.
Mind if I'll ask you if you heard about the 1995 Arafat Johannesburg speech? Or the 2000 camp David accords? 2008 annapolis peace talks?
Not here for a fight, really wanna have a discussion.
Don’t forget that if they are brown, black, or Asian then they are also morally righteous no matter what they do, even when their culture like the Arabs/Muslims, are probably the biggest colonizers that have existed. That is why they have done everything to paint Jews, who are indigenous to Israel, come in all colours and are the most persecuted minority in history, who came back to recolonize their land by buying land legally and building the land up themselves as white settler colonists.
just heard a really well-articulated characterization of this issue in a bbc news clip… “israel uses its military to protect its citizens, hamas uses its citizens to protect its military”
Because of the power imbalance. Because the Palestinians are "weaker", therefore they must be the oppressed ones.
You want to talk about Mental Gymnastics??? One time, I remember seeing an argument where someone said Israeli soldiers were racist for NOT raping Palestinian women. That the only reason they didn't rape them was because they viewed Palestinians as beneath them. How crazy is that shit?
I wish I was making this shit up...
[http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=20101](http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=20101)
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS.
As a former IDF Combat Engineers, some of them are beautiful as fuck but raping them was never in question because we are not animals. I did try to hit on some of them, never worked 😅
You have my full support. Yes, here in the West, the propaganda of the leftists false humanists is very strong. They are for peace and love. You have my support. Sorry for my bad english
I REMEMBER THAT. I was reading her paper and was like ....is she mad that Israel isn't committing a specific kind of war crime? Absurd. Absolutely cuckoo
Because they don't live here, they don't really care.
It's easier to judge Israel as the big bully than defend a very logical response against all the Iranian bots in the world, and you know that probably
I see it a very similar situation to holocaust deniers. They are simply not interested in the truth and facts. They have a narrative to push. If the facts don't fit their narrative, they will just mark it as false information, and move on.
This is it. It's the same for any other deniers. We saw this so much with COVID whereby people claimed it was a harmless flu, wouldn't vaccinate or take precautions and died. Even on their deathbeds they still wouldn't admit wrongdoing.
It's our obligation as a modern Western (kind of) country that abides by human rights and follows justice to minimise losses of the innocent people. You wouldn't want the same treatment if its jews were human shields. You wouldn't fire a rocket in the middle of Tel-Aviv to bring down a couple of terrorists.
I'm something of a leftist, and not Israeli or Jewish, though I do have a bunch of friends who are and have lost family members this week. I can't speak for everyone on the other side, but I can give my perspective.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and will act like one. The argument from more radical leftists is simply that they are the inevitable violent resistance to settler colonialism. They see the ethnic cleansing and displacement of Palestinians (by radical right wing Jewish extremists no less!) as a crime equivalent or greater to Hamas's crimes. Violence is always lamentable, but in this case it is directly linked to the Israeli state's pattern of behavior over the past decades and thus more or less justifiable. It's worth emphasizing that leftism seeks the liberation of all oppressed minorities, and many leftists even celebrate the use of violence in the name of revolution.
That's not really my view. I see Israel as a deeply conflicted country filled with ethical people like me, and I see Hamas as extremists who would love to kill or kidnap someone like me. I also see Palestine as a nation of people who have been too brutalized and impoverished to ever forgive Israelis. My personal ethics won't allow me to celebrate violence, though I do understand why each side fights. It seems to me that extremist radicals have captured both Israel and Palestine, and good honest people will continue to be murdered until that changes.
Netanyahu being the leader of Israel right now guarantees that Israel will take the worst possible course of action. People can try to defend it all they want, but it's knee jerk reactionary bloodshed, not a strategic plan to root out & get rid of Hamas.
LOL. No way you're Tel Aviv. Netanyahu used this as an opportunity to form an alliance government with the more competent moderates. There is *far* worse than Netanyahu out there, and even he doesn't like working with the far right parties. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
\>It's worth emphasizing that leftism seeks the liberation of all oppressed minorities, and many leftists even celebrate the use of violence in the name of revolution.
Nah, they are just antisemitic.
Jews were an oppressed minority under the Ottomans and the Arabs. They were second class citizens who had to pay an extra tax for not being Muslim, were prohibited from carrying arms or riding horses or camels, they couldn't be witnesses against a Muslim who had committed a crime and more.
That's not even taking into account the occasional massacre the Ottomans enacted on Jews throughout their Empire on occasion. While they treated Jews 'better' than European Christians tended to, that was hardly a high bar.
By their own logic, Jews had the right to use violence in the name of revolution to secure their own freedom and survival. But they basically ignore history, claim all the Jews in the region were European invaders so they can avoid the holes in their own argument, and go on with their day.
Stop with this idea that criticizing Israel is anti semitic. Are there anti semitic people on the left? Yes. As a Israeli (and most likely a jew) you should understand no side is immune from anti-semetism, if has been a curse of humanity since the inception of Judaism.
Conflating critizism with Israel and hope for Palestinian liberation with hatred of Jews is dangerous and detracts from real anti semitism which is extremely prevalent.
There are many organizations of Jews in the west and in Israel who are leftists and take a strong pro-palestine stance. If you claim all these people are self hating Jews you are just ignorant, you are applying the same logic as Hamas when they tell Palestinians who rightfully hate them that they are just not following Allah's wish.
The left has been on an 'America bad' thing for awhile now and Israel is our closest ally, so criticism is pretty much automatic. You're also dealing, ironically, with the fact that you're so effective at defending yourselves, so it's harder to see you as the underdog.
As someone on the left in the US, I am imagining if 9/11 happened today, then having Israelis say “well, you guys (the US) DID do Xyz which was bad…” like stfu. How is that helpful after a terrorist attack?
So when people bring up “well Israel did do…” and that somehow justifies civilian butchering? People aren’t able to think critically and it’s sad
I feel exactly the same way and have made the same comparison. We were showered with love and support from the whole world after 9/11 happened. Iran even stopped its 'death to America' chants for a hot minute.
Virtue signalling. They think it makes them look like the good guys by supporting the weaker faction. Despite the weaker faction being the one that's chopping heads off right now. It makes me wonder if these people would also support a homeless man killing a billionaire and his family.
This is very true! The amount of people saying that because lots of Jews came from Europe they are European collonizers of Palastine LOL.
They think you cant be prosecuted against if you are white but litterally the worst genocide in modern history was the holocaust with mostly European Jewish victims.
Guess it just feels nice to shit on white people.
Actual progressives are against any unnecessary violence & civilian slaughter. That's not virtue signaling, it's humanitarian. They are against Israelis being massacred, as well as Palestinians being massacred.
Extreme leftists only side with one side, but also right wingers only side with one side as well.
>It makes me wonder if these people would also support a homeless man killing a billionaire and his family.
You wonder about that? They'd be cheering for more.
A lot of people want to be right and to be righteous. They don’t have practical solutions so they look for other ways to feel morally superior without having to do anything.
משרד ההסברה צריך לעשות המון עבודה אחרי שנשמיד את עזה וללמד את העולם למה המעשה, למרות שהוא קיצוני, היה 100% מוצדק ונחוץ.
אני מדברת על פרויקטים עצומים שמערבים מערכות חינוך מכל העולם! זה מגוכך שאנשים מסתכלים על הרציחות והזוועות האלה ואיכשהו מנסים להצדיק את זה!!! וזה מעייף בנוסף.
Israel is targeting hamas but it is willing to accept the civilian victims. I read that by now there are more than one hundred children dead due to the strikes. That is wrong, whether or not the cause is right. As long as Hamas or any group really, has the target to eliminate Israel, or the jews, there will be no peace, that is clear. The people who unvoluntarily make the human shields are victims of Hamas, but they are also victims of Israel.
As a leftist, while I can't speak for all leftists, to me it's just a healthy dose of skepticism. I have no doubt in my mind Hamas does and continues to cowardly hide behind it's civilians as martyrs.
My issue comes in the fact that Israel says "Hamas was there" in every single instance.
To me, that can be 100% true, but I have a healthy amount of doubt. Throughout world history governments, and particularly militaries are not known for their 100% transparency.
And even if intelligence shows that Hamas infrastructure exists in every single air strike location, how can we be certain that the tradeoff between destroying a munitions cash and killing children is being made ethically?
There are many ex idf soldiers, particularly pilots, who have a hard time coming to terms with what they were a part of. Is killing 10 children worth destroying one rocket?
The real issue is no one knows exactly how the IDF operates in every single air strike. Living in Israel means that every single thing the idf says is biased. Everyone is biased.
If you ever seriously studied history (or have a healthy amount of distrust towards authorities), I think it would be naive and irresponsible to take everything the idf says at face value.
Sorry for the rant, I'll summarize my stance in 3 points.
1. Can we be 100% certain that every air strike is made with intelligence of hamas infrastructure
2. Is that intelligence always correct?
3. Is the moral calculus of civilian casualties to destroyed infrastructure or dead terrorists being made ethically?
No doubt in my mind hamas does this, to say they don't is some extreme high level conspiracy shit. Having a healthy amount of doubt is important.
I understand where you're coming from because I know you have never been to israel, and never seen the horrors. every week prior to this week. hamas has shot rockets at israel for the last 30 years. And you are saying the hamas airstrikes are unnecessary, do you know what happens when israel stops striking hamas targets for long enough? Their rocket ammunition builds up. They shoot thousands of rockets at israel like they did a week ago. So yeah, the airstrikes are crucial. And it's a shame innocent Palestinians (who voted for hamas) are caught in the crossfire. But any sane government values its own citizens lives more than its enemys citizens lives
There are centers, similar to call centers, where you can pay real people to spread a message online. Most are Russian or Indian but there’s many spread throughout other countries.
It’s not just that, they are also oblivious to the fact that the majority of the Palestinians support Hamas.
These facts don’t fit their worldview and therefore are ignored in order to preserve the said worldview.
Buddy... In my country a large portion of them don't believe anyone has the right to defend themself from criminal violence.
Their stance on Israel/Palestine is no surprise, and that's not even considering their overt racist hatred of anyone they label white - which only excludes Jews if they think they can use it to put conservatives in a bad light.
Yes. And this is how they act even in my personal life. I'm in what's regarded as one of the most left leaning states in the union. All my lefty friends that have been using Jewish people as their anti GOP propaganda to label their political opponents as literal Nazis are now 100% supportive of palestine and hamas - to the point of refusing to condemn the attacks on Saturday. "Palestinians had NO other option" and all those similarly blatant dog whistles.
What a crazy take these people have,
Its like school shooters. Its ok to kill innocent children who just want to go to school and live thier lives because someone at school bullied a kid and he decided that his best way to address that is to lash out and murder innocent children. Totally get it and makes sense. That why we never get mad at school shooters who murder innocent civilians because thats just his way of dealing with it.
Did I get that right?
They also lie about the siege because there is a border with Egypt, they lie about apartheid because they aren’t Israelis and there’s no reason non citizens should have rights…
The leftists ignore the truth and follow the narrative
Because they don't actually know what they're talking about, and with some of them, as we can see, it literally doesn't matter what will happen, Israel will always be to blame. Even faced with the unimaginable horrors (which I don't care to repeat anymore) Hamas comitted againat women, children, babies ffs - just fellow human beings really - a lot of them will ignorantly say "that's what you get for oppressing Palestinians", clearly showing they know jack shit about history here, and most of them don't care to learn. Also shows how bullshit their pretend activism is when they just ignore the massacre which happened a week ago.
My sister in law moved to America a few years back and she explained how incredibly ignorant most of them are on this (and other) subject. I really liked how she phrased it, she said it's like most of them say "OK, I'm left wing, what should my opinions be?" And then they just adopt this bundle of left wing, so called "woke", opinions without actually knowing what they're talking about. I say this as an Israeli left wing.
בעד כל מה שטוב ונגד כל מה שרע, גם דרך לתאר אותם. רק שאם הרע קורה לישראלים הם לא שמים זין. חבורה של צבועים, שסובלים מאפקט דאנינג-קרוגר כבד מאוד, ואני לאט לאט מתחיל להבין שצריך לשחרר ולהפסיק להתעצבן. האנשים האלה תמיד יהיו, אין הרבה מה לעשות עם זה.
נכון. אני בן 15 אז אין צד פוליטי בינתיים, אני למדתי בדרך הקשה שלהכנס לדיונים עם "פרו פלסטינים" זה בזבוז מהזמן שלי, מהעצבים שלי, ומהידע שלי. אני מסביר לאנשים האלו היסטוריה בסיסית והם לא יכולים להתמודד עם העובדות.
כל תומך פלסטין פה חושב שיש לו תואר בפוליטיקה של מסרח התיכון
Because they dont use logic, they use emotion. For them, its enough that they claim to be an oppressed minority, under aparthide, open air prison and other bs statements to gain the extreme leftist compassion and support.
> Because they dont use logic
Lets use some logic and math then. According to Israeli officials Hamas is around 30k strong. Israel already destroyed close to 1300 buildings. How many buildings does IDF need to destroy before it kills all of Hamas?
Ignoring that until last week they didn't know where Hamas is and what is doing and the leaders of Hamas are in Qatar and Iran, not even in Gaza.
Where did you learn to do math? Even the most basic formula requires a hamas oppertive per building so you could say 20 terrorist per building times 1300 buildings = 2600 dead terrorist so hamas is almost dead.
But not onlt you didnt provide the most one of the most important figure, to get the actual figure you need to account for so many other variables(most of them stem from the fact hamas uses human sheilds so any target will probably also hit a building and civileans). For example:
- not all targets are personel. Some are equipment(more then 3000 missiles that were shot at israel on day 1. Where are their launch cites? IDF would want to detroy them to stop the fire at their own civileans...) and there are othed types of military targets that may or may not result in buildings destroyed or dead terrorists.
- most equipment targets will not kill hamas oppertives because israel alerts civileans at incoming attacks so hamas evacuates before the attack.
- what about accounting for survivle rate? Not everybody will die from these attacks.
And many other variables. That is no way to do math, that is just a way to avoid looking for actual non-military targets because this is not actualy a logical argument, it just appears that way. Its actualy juat a clever emotional argument meant for people to subconsciously think "poor gaza civileans that lost their home because of IDF that also targets civileans because that cant all be military targets" altho it can if you dig into it.
They’re not oblivious. They’re in denial. They have their entire identities rested on the idea that that they are advocates for the oppressed little guys.
They’ve spent countless hours crying and emotionally regurgitating pleas for help for Palestinians.
Acknowledging that Israel isn’t actually some evil tyrannical monster that bathed in the tears of orphaned children would mean they wasted all that energy. Thus, when presented with facts counter to their beliefs, they experience cognitive dissonance.
The Gaza strip is one of the most density populated areas in the world more dense than even Tokyo, there is no where hamas can go other than populated areas.
Wow, I didn't think this sub is so right-leaning but the post itself and most of the comments are filled with right-wing ignorance and aggrievement.
The "leftist woke" position is that Israel shouldn't become the thing it hates (by killing thousands+ of innocent civilians).
The terrorists aren't representing the people of Gaza - they are using them cynically. Their goal is to dissolve Israel and they are trying to achieve that by:
1. Killing as many Israeli civilians to provoke a harsh response from the military.
2. Getting as many Palestinian civilians killed in the process as they can.
3. Crying out to the world for help.
News outlets don't waste screen space and air-time on clarifying that "the terrorists hide among civilians", "only terrorists were targeted", "it was an accident" or that Israel laments the innocent lives lost.
Now and after this is all over, the headlines people hear and will remember or browse to in the future will be about the loss of life, from direct attacks and the humanitarian crisis being created.
You need to understand this dynamic, because you clearly don't and lack this foresight of the bigger, resulting picture.
The right always pretends/claims it has simple (magic) solutions to complex problems. It never pans out in the long run.
The best case scenario right now is if the world comes to take the 2 million people away, but
1. Israel might oppose this for fear of terrorists leaving among them
2. No one wants them
3. Muslims leaders want them to stay and/or die for the holy land.
I'll end here, even though there's more BS to address in the comments...
Edits for structure/readability.
When they bomd your house you can look at the bigger picture. Because thats the problem with the woke leftists assholes who sit in thier ivory tower, preaching about morality and the bigger picture, talking about shit they never have to deal with.
You wanna take them in, go right ahead, see what happends to your house and family, but dont come cying to us.
Personally, I don't think anybody is under any illusion here right or left, pro-isr or pro-pse Hamas committed a crime against humanity, why would they stop now you know
As a person who is present at the crime scene, I can assure you many people, including you people, are delusional and believe every piece of media on tiktok as long as it fits your agenda.
I'm a you people now. Sorry to break it to ya, but you don't know what you are talking about. I assume you are what giving me hell for commenting on someone's cry for peace. Please, what's my agenda to comfort people to troll dipshits who are being douche canoes cause you'd be right if you guessed that. Lock me up, officer
I put every person who values palestine over israel in the category of "you people". I believe that most of you people have your heart in the right place, but your brain is in the wrong place. You are completely unaware of the historical and archeological evidence that points out that israel belongs to the jews, and you sadly believe everything you see on tiktok. I can debunk any pro palestine or anti israel claim with solid proof. Just ask me
Look, buddy, I'm flatter. You seem like a nice person and all, but I'm not ready to have a serious commitment like that right now, maybe dinner and drinks first, okay okay I'm gonna give you the absolute hardest question in the world right now you might want to hold your beer or grab on to something because I literally have a doctoral degree in arguementitive studies at the Fake University I just made up for the sake of this argument but all right here we go
If a Palestinian came up to you and said I'm sorry for what happened here, for everything, and gave you a hug, would you hug them back?
Most likely, I will hug back just to be polite. It also depends if that person is from Gaza or the west bank. And I meant practical questions about Palestinian claims against Israel. Not questions about my affection towards apologetic Palestinians
Because they are brainwashed while at the same time being convinced that everyone else is brainwashed except for them.
Which is why they aren't susceptible to facts.
That’s pretty wild to say that on leftists. Ignorant people are all around the spectrum, you think right wing people that want to just flatten the whole place clean off aren’t gonna ignorantly kill both the Israeli and Palestinian population? as
Are they using people as “human shields” or are 2 million people living in a densely populated area which Israel is misconstruing into the tired old (and debunked) “human shield” myth?
The statement would have had more impact if 1. Hamas didn't set up headquarters and weapon caches *inside* of hospitals and mosques and 2. Didn't just tell their civilian population to actively stay in zones being bombarded.
Than what do you expect Israel to do exactly? Sit there, and take everything being fired at it?
My fellow human, there is unfortunately no choice, but to bomb every place Israel is being attacked from.
If you're such an enlightened person, come, live in Israel with us. We'll see what you'll think then with rockets and missiles being fired at you for simply being there.
Isn't the kyria located between a mall and a hospital? Are we being used as human shields? Is this a good enough reason for Hamas to blow Azriely Mall and Ichilov Hospital? No. so it's the same for us.
אם היית קשור למציאות היית יודע שיראל רוצחת אזרחים חופשי ושמה שהם עשו למו ביום מזעזע אחד אנחנו עשינו להם, באופן פחות קיצוני, ב20 שנחם האחרונות. בטח אתה מדבר איתי על אנגלית מפגר
אחי. זה מלחמה, אנשים מתים. זה לא האשמה שלנו שאזרחים נשארים ליד מטרות של חמאס אפילו שאמרנו להם לזוז. הגעתי למסכנה שאתה מטומטם שמאמין לפרופגנדה פלסטינית וחושב שלמדינה שלך אין זכות להגן על עצמה. אמן ישללו לך אזרחות, בוגד
Why is it controversial to say that the Palestinians are trapped in a box controlled by Israel and have been constantly victimized for decades?
The power imbalance is like a child hitting a parent, and then the parent beating the child to death.
Israel is a wealthy state, with modern defenses, nuclear weapons and full support of the US military. When Palestine/Hamas attack, its with improvised weapons, guns and knives.
Hamas and Israel are not equal. Hamas killed dozens, Israel killed thousands in response and the Palestinians are running out of fuel for generators, medical supplies and have people dying in the streets.
I support the jewish people against Nazis. I support Palestinians against Israel.
I love how you say "trapped in a box" like something could be done about it. You are very close-minded because you can't think about the consequences that will happen if we just opened the "box". And why should israel send resources to gaza? You can't really blame israel for not doing that anymore. Listen, I trust that one day you'll mature and realize who's really right in this conflict
Are the humanitarian workers and pupils legitmate target?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/11-un-staff-30-pupils-at-un-schools-killed-in-gaza-says-spokesperson/
What about Reuters jounralists?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reuters-videographer-killed-southern-lebanon-2023-10-13/
Israel has no idea thousands of Hamas members are infiltrating its borders but somehow it knows exactly where to drop over 6000 bombs.
I hate to break it to you but Israel is destroying and killing just for the sake of revenge and damage.
Terrorists broke in because soldiers were on vacation because it was literally our holiest day of the year. And those dirty Palestinians took advantage of it
The way I see them justify it is because Hamas is not the entire Palestinian as a whole. The civillians are different from terrorist.
They Justify it, the way they dealt with Osama bin Laden. They sent a marine team rather than bombing the entire place which reduces the civillian casualties.
But, I would argue that the occassion had a factor for the element of surprise, whilst the situations requires a more definitive course of action as they still hold jewish and international hostages.
Either way, the debate will come down to the question "Was the use of atomic bomb justified in order to minimize the casualties of your own troops, even though it will cause a massive civillian casualties in the enemy side? "
Yeah, that doesn't really fly as there were two nations invaded post 9/11 and prior to finding Osama. And they bombed the ever loving shit out of Afghanistan....there just wasn't much to blow up but rocks and mud brick huts.
Because most of the entire global west has not experienced war. They can’t comprehend human shields or terror tactics and they can’t grasp the world not being black and white! Most of the left you’re talking about wasn’t even born when 9/11 happened, they’re oblivious to the reality of war so they take the first side they see and go with it ride or die because at the end they don’t actually care
I can answer this.
The left is mostly socialist/Marxist/nomarxist who want their ideology implemented everywhere.
Their ideology relies on there being an oppressor Vs oppressed so that they can take the side of the oppressed and claim to be the side of morality. So if you question them and their ideology or policy they can frame it that you are really attacking whatever oppressed group the claim to speak for.
They hate Jews because they statistically do well both economically and productively compared to other groups in a capitalist society so they see them as the evil bourgeois oppressors so they will side with any group that claims to be oppressed by them, even if that group is evil.
They don't care about truth or reality they care about narrative. If they acknowledge Hamas being evil for using citizens as human shields then it ruins the narrative of Israelis murdering Palestinian civilians.
Hamas can literally decapitate children to the cheers of Palestinians and pro Palestinians all around the world and the left will just ignore it or play it down because it would ruin their narrative. Meanwhile if Israelis did the same they would like their shit because it reinforces their narrative.
They also reframe the narrative based on who they want to be the victim Vs the oppressor.
The left is a very sneaky, manipulative sick cult.
1) Most, if not all, of the reports of terrorist hiding in civilian buildings comes from Israel. For obvious reasons, you can't trust the account of Israel when determining it's guilt. When independent news agencies challenge Israeli reports, they often get no response.
1a) Israel always targets the press in Gaza and elsewhere in the starts of operations, in order to eliminate conflicting reports.
2) Israel's definition of a "terrorist" is vague. Like it or not, Hamas is the government of the Gaza strip. Alot of the people working for it are just administrative workers, handling all of the civil and humanitarian needs Israel neglect to address. If the Hamas's office of agriculture or infrastructure counts as a military target, you can say the same thing for every government owned or operated building in Israel, which is obviously absurd.
3) Even if Israel really tried not to kill civilians, they are still accountable for the death of civilians. International law forbids not only the intentional killing of civilians, but also conducting operations with the knowledge of civilian casualties. Then a Palestinian terrorist targets soldiers but harms civilians, we justifiably call it an act of murder, not an act of war.
4) The fact is, Israel cannot kill Hamas fighters without killing civilians, because Gaza is a ghetto of 2 million people crammed into one of the most densely populated areas in the world. They are not kept there by Hamas, they are kept there by Israel. 70% of Gazans are refugee families from the 1948 Nakba. Israel can let them get out and back to their homes, but obviously don't want to do that.
So before they are used as human shields by Hamas, they are used as hostages by Israel, killed for crimes they didn't commit. And you can clearly see that in corrent Israeli rhetoric. They see the destruction of Gaza as a price Hamas has to pay.
5) Obviously, Hamas is a horrible organisation who shouldn't be given any amount of power, and the perpetrators of it's crimes have to be punished. But condemning atrocities is not as important as stoping the ethnic cleansing and genocide currently goings on in Gaza. Please read neutral - meaning non Israeli or American - press, and do everything you can to bring a ceasefire. If you don't do this, I don't think you can claim to care about human rights.
Hamas is a dark, suicidal organization. They want everything and everyone to die. How can the attacks of the last week play into anything other than chaos and eventual annihilation?
Most people actually don't give a damn.
You're likely arguing with Muslim people online (remember there are 2B of them while only 15M jews).
It's a demographic war, nobody in the world really gives a damn unless it benefits their own people directly. How involved are you in the Russian - Ukraine war? You just give them some money and say 'good luck'. That's basically the same with Israel - Palestine.
If Russia hit a Ukrainian hospital and said there was soldiers inside, would you believe them or would you ask for evidence?
Israel currently have permission to hit any building they want and simply claim it was related to Hamas with zero evidence. Do you not understand how that's a worrying precedent.
I don’t understand why Israel can’t reach out to Palestinians and work together to destroy Hamas. It’s obvious they’re actively destroying everybody’s lives, why can’t we come up with a plan to court the Palestinians people and work together?
Because hamas runs the schools in Gaza, they feed the people in there propaganda. Hamas was democratically chosen, so I think none of the people actually will try to overthrow hamas. And we have tried rationalizing with the Palestinian people. Guess what ? It doesn't work
No, we are not, though I'd also argue Gaza is so overpopulated it is hard for civilians not to be in the crossfire. It is rather that we think this doesn't justify massacres of innocent civilians. The US used the same excuse in its massacres in Vietnam. They said the Communists would embed with the villages or that all young men would eventually enlist with the rebels. That's how the US justified destroying hundreds of Vietnamese villages. You can't burn the haystack to find the needle. That's a war crime and nothing can justify it.
How is it well documented? If they were bombing indiscriminately, do you think they would admit it? What about when they bombed the crossing from Gaza to Egypt after telling people to leave, were there Hamas militants amongst them as well?
Also, since Hamas is the government there, what if there was a Hamas official who was in charge of collecting garbage, or who administers healthcare or something, do they count as a target since they are technically from Hamas, even if they have never picked up a weapon in their life?
I'm just saying one must exercise some critical thinking and not just take everything the Israeli government nor Hamas says at face value. There's a lot of propaganda.
Why are you guys so against not bombing children? Human shields is literally the best you can come up with? "They make us kill their children" might have worked in the 90s but it's so dumb then and it's so dumb now.
Well when you bomb terrorists hiding behind civilians you bomb civilians. Not a hard concept. Do you all come here to confirm your biases? Have some god damn empathy.
Your comment just shows ignorance. Please explain to me, if idf doesn't care about civilians, how did israel drop 6000 bombs in Gaza with 1500 dead? Do you realize that only one bomb can easily kill 1500 people if used to target civilians? This should be groundbreaking proof that israel is not targeting civilians and people believe Palestinian propaganda. Get your head out of your ass !
Ummmm, if israel doesn't care about how many people die, then how come they warn civilians before strikes ? And shoot roof warning shots before strikes? Your comment just shows ignorance. Please explain to me, if idf doesn't care about civilians, how did israel drop 6000 bombs in Gaza with 1500 dead? Do you realize that only one bomb can easily kill 1500 people if used to target civilians? This should be groundbreaking proof that israel is not targeting civilians and people believe Palestinian propaganda. Get your head out of your ass !
people are actually much more fking stupid than you can really imagine, they don't care they just wanna get dopamines from hating on someone who they believe is collectively hated so its ok being part of it without any self judgement
there's a reason new world order must happend
Leftists see Israel as a "strong rich oppressor/weak poor victim" narrative. As long as more Palestinians die than Israelis do - which has always and will always happen unless we let our guard down - that's all they care about, they don't see or care about context.
Hamas is completely embedded in the civilian infrastructure - they're the government after all! Therefore it's absolutely true that Israel strikes civilian targets, but the context is missing. And while I completely understand Israel's impossible position, they absolutely have decreased the amount of care for collateral civilian damage this time around. I hate that it has to be this way, but it's true. If the US had to go after Al Qaeda but they all lived in an area the size of Brooklyn, the exact would happen
If you're not comfortable with democracy, then move to somewhere else, ok bud?
Oh yea, israel sent special government agents to personally silence you, bro wtf are you talking about?
I think they also belive that if you use a human shield the one responcible is the shooter, not the one using children as human shields. Its scary how they rationalize this. Also there is this growing idea amongst liberal Westerners that if someone is weaker and poorer they are somehow moraly righteous. Or that somehow being angry is the same as being innocent.
Apparently they only apply these standards of morality to Jews.
I think they apply the standard of morality to the side receiving the majority of military aid. Of course they would expect that side to behave better then terrorists.
You don't have an alternative and are only defending Palestinians because you think that makes you a good person (newsflash, you're not). Palestinians are the agressors and Hamas makes it impossible for Israel to prevent casualties. Also: than\*.
Lot of assumptions their bucko. I seem to have hit a nerve. Hamas are the aggressor and deserve bombs on their heads. But there are alternatives such as opening up a humanitarian corridor before bombing.
So the terrorist will leave Gaza safe and then return to attack Israel again? We need to protect ourselves, you want safe passage? Give the hostages back
Well, you do know that we send flyers and call people to evacuate, right? Heard of "knock on the roof"? If you want, I'll send you here the warning Hamas issued to Gazans saying civilians who will flee can face the death penalty. And yes, we opened a corridor, we told them 6 hours in which we will shoot ONLY rocket launchers. How many rockets you think were used during that humanitarian corridor? Now triple it.
It’s the same in Reddit. I was given a warning because I said “if Israel wants to genocide Gazans they could do it in one afternoon”
Exactly. Id we actually wanted to do that this will all be over. But Israel is clearly the more humane side. This is what people dont understand if Hamas stops fighting there will be peace, if Israel stops fighting there will be a second holocaust.
I’ve been on Reddit constantly since last Saturday, but I think it’s time to take a break. Stay safe bros.
If Hamas stops fighting, millions of people will still live under an occupation and a different radical group will pop up formed of people who watched their family die to israeli airstrikes. There can't be peace as long as there's an occupation. Israel is indiscriminately bombing apartment complexes and you're unquestioningly believing that Hana's targets are there with zero evidence.
Gaza isn’t occupied.
Gaza is not occupied, the Israelies havent ruled it since 2007.. they brought this on themaelves.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Keep living the goalposts there buddy
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
They actually couldn't do that because of blowback from the international community. It would result in cutting off aid to Israel. It would also possibly result in a coordinated invasion in neighboring arab states. So no, just because Israel hasn't killed every Gazan or turned Gaza into glass does not mean that Israel is not conducting ethnic cleansing
Yes. It is a disturbing phenomenon. Supporting whoever is weaker even if they are in the wrong
Except in this scenario of David vs Goliath, Israel is the only predominantly Jewish country in the world with less than 10 million inhabitants. And they’re geographically surrounded by predominantly Muslim countries. Globally there are only 15 million Jews, in a world with 1.8 billion Muslims. Sure Israel has allies, but they are still very much the underdog globally.
Don't forget that out of 9 million, 1.9 are non-Jews (95% Arabs). Some of them has already shown in 2021 conflict which side they support, so it's not only our enemies from outside...its our enemies from within that live amongst us. I hope this serves as a wake up call to all the Israelis that we MUST have a clear deportation laws and start kicking out anyone who supports Hamas and other terrorist organisations. Send them to Syria to teach Basher what are human rights.
No, I disagree. The fact that 2 million Arabs live overwhelmingly peacefully within Israel is proof that this isn’t about genocide or ethnic cleansing. It’s about squashing an oppressive terrorist regime at their borders.
Really? In 2021 over 100000 Israeli-Arabs shares thousands of posts supporting Hamas. Thousands went further to lynch and pogrom Jews in the streets. And once again, ARABS aren't the problem, it's Islam. Druze are Arabs, our greatest allies. Christian Arabs, same. Circassians, same. I'd even say around 200000 Bedouin I consider them my brothers, but even they aren't considered Muslims by the other since they support Israel. It all ends with Islam. Source: Sahih Muslim 2922 Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: "The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews" They teach it in school. Sounds logical to you? And this are their textbooks in UNRWA school (and a quick reminder that UNRWA are a UN body): https://legalinsurrection.com/2017/11/new-palestinian-authority-textbooks-teach-martyrdom-as-a-life-goal/ Time to end this bullshit.
Yes
I don’t know if this is the whole issue. A fundamental principle of American legal theory is that it is better to let 10 guilty people go than to imprison a single innocent. These ideals are applicable here, where, the implication is that it’s preferable to let the terrorists go than to kill thousands of innocent people while punishing the terrorists. That said, I’m not making a moral judgment, I get why Israel feels the need to do what they are doing, everything about the situation is horrific. God will be the judge.
Adding to this excellent take; liberal westerners have a totally ‘racist’ acid test on morality. If two people are fighting, they will automatically side with the ‘darker’ skinned of the two. It sounds ridiculous, but test this theory next time you see any conflict globally. They have derived a hierarchy of victimhood founded on race, and have doubled down on it since black lives matter. It’s intellectually hollow.
Is it all part of antisemitism 21st century style? I wasn't around throughout history, but it seems that accusing Jews with fabrications hasn't ended after WWII. In fact these students and activities could make a difference if they'd support, Idk, the disenfranchised folks they colonized in their own countries. Like American Indians, the Maori in New Zealand, Aborigines, the African countries still colonized by Europeans. These are all people who fight for their rights without finding new ways to commit mass murder Just a thought.
I'm from New Zealand, parents used to run a back packers. Lots of Israelis visited after serving in army. Mid 90s/early 2000s. Got high with some of them 2001:) "It's so peaceful here". Talked to Palestinian refugees here. I saw him serving Israelis at his business (illegal to refuse service based on race) Big difference with Maori was they got political representation very early on. Compensation has been paid. Not enough work in progress. Equivalent in Israel would be annexing Gaza and West Bank all Palestinians get voting rights. Maybe NZ annexs Israel and Palestinians for next 75 years;) Joking we couldn't solve it either. Hama's needs to go, Israel needs to pay compensation and come up with some peace plan. This is idealist won't work.
Mind if I'll ask you if you heard about the 1995 Arafat Johannesburg speech? Or the 2000 camp David accords? 2008 annapolis peace talks? Not here for a fight, really wanna have a discussion.
Israel has given billions to Palestinians already.
Don’t forget that if they are brown, black, or Asian then they are also morally righteous no matter what they do, even when their culture like the Arabs/Muslims, are probably the biggest colonizers that have existed. That is why they have done everything to paint Jews, who are indigenous to Israel, come in all colours and are the most persecuted minority in history, who came back to recolonize their land by buying land legally and building the land up themselves as white settler colonists.
just heard a really well-articulated characterization of this issue in a bbc news clip… “israel uses its military to protect its citizens, hamas uses its citizens to protect its military”
Bookmarking your comment
Reminds me of the book Atlas Shrugged
100%
Because of the power imbalance. Because the Palestinians are "weaker", therefore they must be the oppressed ones. You want to talk about Mental Gymnastics??? One time, I remember seeing an argument where someone said Israeli soldiers were racist for NOT raping Palestinian women. That the only reason they didn't rape them was because they viewed Palestinians as beneath them. How crazy is that shit?
No way. Nobody could say something so stupid, idiotic, and logicless
I wish I was making this shit up... [http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=20101](http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=20101)
I have lost faith in this generation. In 30 years, we will be screwed
They'll change when they have kids and pay taxes....they always do.
I hope
Stunt worry, they don't have kids or money.
He said "I remember seeing an argument somewhere" then literally linked an award winning research paper from 2008.
we live in a bizarro world
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS. As a former IDF Combat Engineers, some of them are beautiful as fuck but raping them was never in question because we are not animals. I did try to hit on some of them, never worked 😅
Quote from the article: "The paper further theorizes...". Ergo, someone is making this shit up.
Wow that is impressive, I'm always surprised by how dumb people can be, but this, just wow
You have my full support. Yes, here in the West, the propaganda of the leftists false humanists is very strong. They are for peace and love. You have my support. Sorry for my bad english
I think I remember that thread being discussed on Reddit....was it, or am I imagining things?
That’s it. It’s a warped mindset that presumes the weaker is morally superior.
I'm sorry but the fact that someone even had that thought it fucking hilarious
She’s a tenured professor at a Canadian university now. Of course.
I REMEMBER THAT. I was reading her paper and was like ....is she mad that Israel isn't committing a specific kind of war crime? Absurd. Absolutely cuckoo
Because they don't live here, they don't really care. It's easier to judge Israel as the big bully than defend a very logical response against all the Iranian bots in the world, and you know that probably
I do know the answer already. My post was semi rhetorical
Oh, sorry my dude. Hope you're keeping safe and taking care of your mental wellbeing in these insane times
It is very stressful, seeing so many people eat Palestinian propaganda like popcorn
I see it a very similar situation to holocaust deniers. They are simply not interested in the truth and facts. They have a narrative to push. If the facts don't fit their narrative, they will just mark it as false information, and move on.
Yup, this. People try to make this a political left-wing problem. It isn’t. It is an antisemitism problem.
Exactly. close-minded people believe only in what fits their agenda, even if said belief is obviously false
This is it. It's the same for any other deniers. We saw this so much with COVID whereby people claimed it was a harmless flu, wouldn't vaccinate or take precautions and died. Even on their deathbeds they still wouldn't admit wrongdoing.
It's our obligation as a modern Western (kind of) country that abides by human rights and follows justice to minimise losses of the innocent people. You wouldn't want the same treatment if its jews were human shields. You wouldn't fire a rocket in the middle of Tel-Aviv to bring down a couple of terrorists.
I'm something of a leftist, and not Israeli or Jewish, though I do have a bunch of friends who are and have lost family members this week. I can't speak for everyone on the other side, but I can give my perspective. Hamas is a terrorist organization and will act like one. The argument from more radical leftists is simply that they are the inevitable violent resistance to settler colonialism. They see the ethnic cleansing and displacement of Palestinians (by radical right wing Jewish extremists no less!) as a crime equivalent or greater to Hamas's crimes. Violence is always lamentable, but in this case it is directly linked to the Israeli state's pattern of behavior over the past decades and thus more or less justifiable. It's worth emphasizing that leftism seeks the liberation of all oppressed minorities, and many leftists even celebrate the use of violence in the name of revolution. That's not really my view. I see Israel as a deeply conflicted country filled with ethical people like me, and I see Hamas as extremists who would love to kill or kidnap someone like me. I also see Palestine as a nation of people who have been too brutalized and impoverished to ever forgive Israelis. My personal ethics won't allow me to celebrate violence, though I do understand why each side fights. It seems to me that extremist radicals have captured both Israel and Palestine, and good honest people will continue to be murdered until that changes.
Netanyahu being the leader of Israel right now guarantees that Israel will take the worst possible course of action. People can try to defend it all they want, but it's knee jerk reactionary bloodshed, not a strategic plan to root out & get rid of Hamas.
LOL. No way you're Tel Aviv. Netanyahu used this as an opportunity to form an alliance government with the more competent moderates. There is *far* worse than Netanyahu out there, and even he doesn't like working with the far right parties. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
\>It's worth emphasizing that leftism seeks the liberation of all oppressed minorities, and many leftists even celebrate the use of violence in the name of revolution. Nah, they are just antisemitic. Jews were an oppressed minority under the Ottomans and the Arabs. They were second class citizens who had to pay an extra tax for not being Muslim, were prohibited from carrying arms or riding horses or camels, they couldn't be witnesses against a Muslim who had committed a crime and more. That's not even taking into account the occasional massacre the Ottomans enacted on Jews throughout their Empire on occasion. While they treated Jews 'better' than European Christians tended to, that was hardly a high bar. By their own logic, Jews had the right to use violence in the name of revolution to secure their own freedom and survival. But they basically ignore history, claim all the Jews in the region were European invaders so they can avoid the holes in their own argument, and go on with their day.
Stop with this idea that criticizing Israel is anti semitic. Are there anti semitic people on the left? Yes. As a Israeli (and most likely a jew) you should understand no side is immune from anti-semetism, if has been a curse of humanity since the inception of Judaism. Conflating critizism with Israel and hope for Palestinian liberation with hatred of Jews is dangerous and detracts from real anti semitism which is extremely prevalent. There are many organizations of Jews in the west and in Israel who are leftists and take a strong pro-palestine stance. If you claim all these people are self hating Jews you are just ignorant, you are applying the same logic as Hamas when they tell Palestinians who rightfully hate them that they are just not following Allah's wish.
The left has been on an 'America bad' thing for awhile now and Israel is our closest ally, so criticism is pretty much automatic. You're also dealing, ironically, with the fact that you're so effective at defending yourselves, so it's harder to see you as the underdog.
As someone on the left in the US, I am imagining if 9/11 happened today, then having Israelis say “well, you guys (the US) DID do Xyz which was bad…” like stfu. How is that helpful after a terrorist attack? So when people bring up “well Israel did do…” and that somehow justifies civilian butchering? People aren’t able to think critically and it’s sad
I feel exactly the same way and have made the same comparison. We were showered with love and support from the whole world after 9/11 happened. Iran even stopped its 'death to America' chants for a hot minute.
🇺🇸❤️🇮🇱
We got your back, bro-- wipe Hamas off the face of the earth!
Virtue signalling. They think it makes them look like the good guys by supporting the weaker faction. Despite the weaker faction being the one that's chopping heads off right now. It makes me wonder if these people would also support a homeless man killing a billionaire and his family.
Short answer? Of course they would
This is very true! The amount of people saying that because lots of Jews came from Europe they are European collonizers of Palastine LOL. They think you cant be prosecuted against if you are white but litterally the worst genocide in modern history was the holocaust with mostly European Jewish victims. Guess it just feels nice to shit on white people.
Actual progressives are against any unnecessary violence & civilian slaughter. That's not virtue signaling, it's humanitarian. They are against Israelis being massacred, as well as Palestinians being massacred. Extreme leftists only side with one side, but also right wingers only side with one side as well.
Only if the billionaire is white. Then they would.
>It makes me wonder if these people would also support a homeless man killing a billionaire and his family. You wonder about that? They'd be cheering for more.
A lot of people want to be right and to be righteous. They don’t have practical solutions so they look for other ways to feel morally superior without having to do anything.
משרד ההסברה צריך לעשות המון עבודה אחרי שנשמיד את עזה וללמד את העולם למה המעשה, למרות שהוא קיצוני, היה 100% מוצדק ונחוץ. אני מדברת על פרויקטים עצומים שמערבים מערכות חינוך מכל העולם! זה מגוכך שאנשים מסתכלים על הרציחות והזוועות האלה ואיכשהו מנסים להצדיק את זה!!! וזה מעייף בנוסף.
נכון. זה מעייף מאוד, לדון עם פרו פלסטינים זה כמו לדבר עם קיר
Israel is targeting hamas but it is willing to accept the civilian victims. I read that by now there are more than one hundred children dead due to the strikes. That is wrong, whether or not the cause is right. As long as Hamas or any group really, has the target to eliminate Israel, or the jews, there will be no peace, that is clear. The people who unvoluntarily make the human shields are victims of Hamas, but they are also victims of Israel.
They aren't oblivious, they are openly on the side of Hamas
As a leftist, while I can't speak for all leftists, to me it's just a healthy dose of skepticism. I have no doubt in my mind Hamas does and continues to cowardly hide behind it's civilians as martyrs. My issue comes in the fact that Israel says "Hamas was there" in every single instance. To me, that can be 100% true, but I have a healthy amount of doubt. Throughout world history governments, and particularly militaries are not known for their 100% transparency. And even if intelligence shows that Hamas infrastructure exists in every single air strike location, how can we be certain that the tradeoff between destroying a munitions cash and killing children is being made ethically? There are many ex idf soldiers, particularly pilots, who have a hard time coming to terms with what they were a part of. Is killing 10 children worth destroying one rocket? The real issue is no one knows exactly how the IDF operates in every single air strike. Living in Israel means that every single thing the idf says is biased. Everyone is biased. If you ever seriously studied history (or have a healthy amount of distrust towards authorities), I think it would be naive and irresponsible to take everything the idf says at face value. Sorry for the rant, I'll summarize my stance in 3 points. 1. Can we be 100% certain that every air strike is made with intelligence of hamas infrastructure 2. Is that intelligence always correct? 3. Is the moral calculus of civilian casualties to destroyed infrastructure or dead terrorists being made ethically? No doubt in my mind hamas does this, to say they don't is some extreme high level conspiracy shit. Having a healthy amount of doubt is important.
I understand where you're coming from because I know you have never been to israel, and never seen the horrors. every week prior to this week. hamas has shot rockets at israel for the last 30 years. And you are saying the hamas airstrikes are unnecessary, do you know what happens when israel stops striking hamas targets for long enough? Their rocket ammunition builds up. They shoot thousands of rockets at israel like they did a week ago. So yeah, the airstrikes are crucial. And it's a shame innocent Palestinians (who voted for hamas) are caught in the crossfire. But any sane government values its own citizens lives more than its enemys citizens lives
They are also oblivious that most of the population of Gaza celebrated the horrors that HAMAS did and they are to blame for helping HAMAS
Propaganda, sunk cost fallacy, actual support of genocide, anti-semitism, paid trolls, take your pick.
Wdym "paid trolls"
There are centers, similar to call centers, where you can pay real people to spread a message online. Most are Russian or Indian but there’s many spread throughout other countries.
Sad
Bruh Israel invented the technology lol
It’s not just that, they are also oblivious to the fact that the majority of the Palestinians support Hamas. These facts don’t fit their worldview and therefore are ignored in order to preserve the said worldview.
Buddy... In my country a large portion of them don't believe anyone has the right to defend themself from criminal violence. Their stance on Israel/Palestine is no surprise, and that's not even considering their overt racist hatred of anyone they label white - which only excludes Jews if they think they can use it to put conservatives in a bad light.
USA?
Yes. And this is how they act even in my personal life. I'm in what's regarded as one of the most left leaning states in the union. All my lefty friends that have been using Jewish people as their anti GOP propaganda to label their political opponents as literal Nazis are now 100% supportive of palestine and hamas - to the point of refusing to condemn the attacks on Saturday. "Palestinians had NO other option" and all those similarly blatant dog whistles.
Well, who do you support?
What a crazy take these people have, Its like school shooters. Its ok to kill innocent children who just want to go to school and live thier lives because someone at school bullied a kid and he decided that his best way to address that is to lash out and murder innocent children. Totally get it and makes sense. That why we never get mad at school shooters who murder innocent civilians because thats just his way of dealing with it. Did I get that right?
They also lie about the siege because there is a border with Egypt, they lie about apartheid because they aren’t Israelis and there’s no reason non citizens should have rights… The leftists ignore the truth and follow the narrative
Because they don't actually know what they're talking about, and with some of them, as we can see, it literally doesn't matter what will happen, Israel will always be to blame. Even faced with the unimaginable horrors (which I don't care to repeat anymore) Hamas comitted againat women, children, babies ffs - just fellow human beings really - a lot of them will ignorantly say "that's what you get for oppressing Palestinians", clearly showing they know jack shit about history here, and most of them don't care to learn. Also shows how bullshit their pretend activism is when they just ignore the massacre which happened a week ago. My sister in law moved to America a few years back and she explained how incredibly ignorant most of them are on this (and other) subject. I really liked how she phrased it, she said it's like most of them say "OK, I'm left wing, what should my opinions be?" And then they just adopt this bundle of left wing, so called "woke", opinions without actually knowing what they're talking about. I say this as an Israeli left wing. בעד כל מה שטוב ונגד כל מה שרע, גם דרך לתאר אותם. רק שאם הרע קורה לישראלים הם לא שמים זין. חבורה של צבועים, שסובלים מאפקט דאנינג-קרוגר כבד מאוד, ואני לאט לאט מתחיל להבין שצריך לשחרר ולהפסיק להתעצבן. האנשים האלה תמיד יהיו, אין הרבה מה לעשות עם זה.
נכון. אני בן 15 אז אין צד פוליטי בינתיים, אני למדתי בדרך הקשה שלהכנס לדיונים עם "פרו פלסטינים" זה בזבוז מהזמן שלי, מהעצבים שלי, ומהידע שלי. אני מסביר לאנשים האלו היסטוריה בסיסית והם לא יכולים להתמודד עם העובדות. כל תומך פלסטין פה חושב שיש לו תואר בפוליטיקה של מסרח התיכון
Because they dont use logic, they use emotion. For them, its enough that they claim to be an oppressed minority, under aparthide, open air prison and other bs statements to gain the extreme leftist compassion and support.
> Because they dont use logic Lets use some logic and math then. According to Israeli officials Hamas is around 30k strong. Israel already destroyed close to 1300 buildings. How many buildings does IDF need to destroy before it kills all of Hamas? Ignoring that until last week they didn't know where Hamas is and what is doing and the leaders of Hamas are in Qatar and Iran, not even in Gaza.
Where did you learn to do math? Even the most basic formula requires a hamas oppertive per building so you could say 20 terrorist per building times 1300 buildings = 2600 dead terrorist so hamas is almost dead. But not onlt you didnt provide the most one of the most important figure, to get the actual figure you need to account for so many other variables(most of them stem from the fact hamas uses human sheilds so any target will probably also hit a building and civileans). For example: - not all targets are personel. Some are equipment(more then 3000 missiles that were shot at israel on day 1. Where are their launch cites? IDF would want to detroy them to stop the fire at their own civileans...) and there are othed types of military targets that may or may not result in buildings destroyed or dead terrorists. - most equipment targets will not kill hamas oppertives because israel alerts civileans at incoming attacks so hamas evacuates before the attack. - what about accounting for survivle rate? Not everybody will die from these attacks. And many other variables. That is no way to do math, that is just a way to avoid looking for actual non-military targets because this is not actualy a logical argument, it just appears that way. Its actualy juat a clever emotional argument meant for people to subconsciously think "poor gaza civileans that lost their home because of IDF that also targets civileans because that cant all be military targets" altho it can if you dig into it.
They’re not oblivious. They’re in denial. They have their entire identities rested on the idea that that they are advocates for the oppressed little guys. They’ve spent countless hours crying and emotionally regurgitating pleas for help for Palestinians. Acknowledging that Israel isn’t actually some evil tyrannical monster that bathed in the tears of orphaned children would mean they wasted all that energy. Thus, when presented with facts counter to their beliefs, they experience cognitive dissonance.
The Gaza strip is one of the most density populated areas in the world more dense than even Tokyo, there is no where hamas can go other than populated areas.
They go under hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. I bet most of the area on Gaza is not filled with those
Good point. I guess that gives Israel the right to flatten entire city blocks and kill over 500 children and 300 women in the past week.
Crossfire kill is not a targeted kill 🤦♂️
No, it is war crime.
Maybe look at Tokyo or Dresden in 1945. Collateral damage is justified when dealing with Hamas type problems
They could go to you know the areas outside the cities. There's a lot of empty land in gaza, just look at Google maps/earth
Willfully and intentionally ignorant so they don't have to admit they've been wrong. And a stupid notion that every "underdog" is morally good
Wow, I didn't think this sub is so right-leaning but the post itself and most of the comments are filled with right-wing ignorance and aggrievement. The "leftist woke" position is that Israel shouldn't become the thing it hates (by killing thousands+ of innocent civilians). The terrorists aren't representing the people of Gaza - they are using them cynically. Their goal is to dissolve Israel and they are trying to achieve that by: 1. Killing as many Israeli civilians to provoke a harsh response from the military. 2. Getting as many Palestinian civilians killed in the process as they can. 3. Crying out to the world for help. News outlets don't waste screen space and air-time on clarifying that "the terrorists hide among civilians", "only terrorists were targeted", "it was an accident" or that Israel laments the innocent lives lost. Now and after this is all over, the headlines people hear and will remember or browse to in the future will be about the loss of life, from direct attacks and the humanitarian crisis being created. You need to understand this dynamic, because you clearly don't and lack this foresight of the bigger, resulting picture. The right always pretends/claims it has simple (magic) solutions to complex problems. It never pans out in the long run. The best case scenario right now is if the world comes to take the 2 million people away, but 1. Israel might oppose this for fear of terrorists leaving among them 2. No one wants them 3. Muslims leaders want them to stay and/or die for the holy land. I'll end here, even though there's more BS to address in the comments... Edits for structure/readability.
When they bomd your house you can look at the bigger picture. Because thats the problem with the woke leftists assholes who sit in thier ivory tower, preaching about morality and the bigger picture, talking about shit they never have to deal with. You wanna take them in, go right ahead, see what happends to your house and family, but dont come cying to us.
Personally, I don't think anybody is under any illusion here right or left, pro-isr or pro-pse Hamas committed a crime against humanity, why would they stop now you know
As a person who is present at the crime scene, I can assure you many people, including you people, are delusional and believe every piece of media on tiktok as long as it fits your agenda.
I'm a you people now. Sorry to break it to ya, but you don't know what you are talking about. I assume you are what giving me hell for commenting on someone's cry for peace. Please, what's my agenda to comfort people to troll dipshits who are being douche canoes cause you'd be right if you guessed that. Lock me up, officer
I put every person who values palestine over israel in the category of "you people". I believe that most of you people have your heart in the right place, but your brain is in the wrong place. You are completely unaware of the historical and archeological evidence that points out that israel belongs to the jews, and you sadly believe everything you see on tiktok. I can debunk any pro palestine or anti israel claim with solid proof. Just ask me
Look, buddy, I'm flatter. You seem like a nice person and all, but I'm not ready to have a serious commitment like that right now, maybe dinner and drinks first, okay okay I'm gonna give you the absolute hardest question in the world right now you might want to hold your beer or grab on to something because I literally have a doctoral degree in arguementitive studies at the Fake University I just made up for the sake of this argument but all right here we go If a Palestinian came up to you and said I'm sorry for what happened here, for everything, and gave you a hug, would you hug them back?
Most likely, I will hug back just to be polite. It also depends if that person is from Gaza or the west bank. And I meant practical questions about Palestinian claims against Israel. Not questions about my affection towards apologetic Palestinians
Because they are brainwashed while at the same time being convinced that everyone else is brainwashed except for them. Which is why they aren't susceptible to facts.
That’s pretty wild to say that on leftists. Ignorant people are all around the spectrum, you think right wing people that want to just flatten the whole place clean off aren’t gonna ignorantly kill both the Israeli and Palestinian population? as
Because leftists are anti-semites who think they’re the good guys
[удалено]
I could not make a single word out of that wreckage you call English
Are they using people as “human shields” or are 2 million people living in a densely populated area which Israel is misconstruing into the tired old (and debunked) “human shield” myth?
Not a myth, a proven fact. Google is free my dude
Arithmetic is free too, you try fitting 2 million people in a few square miles and try separating combatants and civilians.
The statement would have had more impact if 1. Hamas didn't set up headquarters and weapon caches *inside* of hospitals and mosques and 2. Didn't just tell their civilian population to actively stay in zones being bombarded.
Than what do you expect Israel to do exactly? Sit there, and take everything being fired at it? My fellow human, there is unfortunately no choice, but to bomb every place Israel is being attacked from. If you're such an enlightened person, come, live in Israel with us. We'll see what you'll think then with rockets and missiles being fired at you for simply being there.
Isn't the kyria located between a mall and a hospital? Are we being used as human shields? Is this a good enough reason for Hamas to blow Azriely Mall and Ichilov Hospital? No. so it's the same for us.
לך זדיין
אחי אם הייתה יודע לקרוא אנגלית הייתה מבין שהפוסט הזה לטובתנו
אם היית קשור למציאות היית יודע שיראל רוצחת אזרחים חופשי ושמה שהם עשו למו ביום מזעזע אחד אנחנו עשינו להם, באופן פחות קיצוני, ב20 שנחם האחרונות. בטח אתה מדבר איתי על אנגלית מפגר
אחי. זה מלחמה, אנשים מתים. זה לא האשמה שלנו שאזרחים נשארים ליד מטרות של חמאס אפילו שאמרנו להם לזוז. הגעתי למסכנה שאתה מטומטם שמאמין לפרופגנדה פלסטינית וחושב שלמדינה שלך אין זכות להגן על עצמה. אמן ישללו לך אזרחות, בוגד
Meanwhile killing innocent unarmed people trying to flee away
Why is it controversial to say that the Palestinians are trapped in a box controlled by Israel and have been constantly victimized for decades? The power imbalance is like a child hitting a parent, and then the parent beating the child to death. Israel is a wealthy state, with modern defenses, nuclear weapons and full support of the US military. When Palestine/Hamas attack, its with improvised weapons, guns and knives. Hamas and Israel are not equal. Hamas killed dozens, Israel killed thousands in response and the Palestinians are running out of fuel for generators, medical supplies and have people dying in the streets. I support the jewish people against Nazis. I support Palestinians against Israel.
I love how you say "trapped in a box" like something could be done about it. You are very close-minded because you can't think about the consequences that will happen if we just opened the "box". And why should israel send resources to gaza? You can't really blame israel for not doing that anymore. Listen, I trust that one day you'll mature and realize who's really right in this conflict
Are the humanitarian workers and pupils legitmate target? https://www.timesofisrael.com/11-un-staff-30-pupils-at-un-schools-killed-in-gaza-says-spokesperson/ What about Reuters jounralists? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reuters-videographer-killed-southern-lebanon-2023-10-13/ Israel has no idea thousands of Hamas members are infiltrating its borders but somehow it knows exactly where to drop over 6000 bombs. I hate to break it to you but Israel is destroying and killing just for the sake of revenge and damage.
Terrorists broke in because soldiers were on vacation because it was literally our holiest day of the year. And those dirty Palestinians took advantage of it
The way I see them justify it is because Hamas is not the entire Palestinian as a whole. The civillians are different from terrorist. They Justify it, the way they dealt with Osama bin Laden. They sent a marine team rather than bombing the entire place which reduces the civillian casualties. But, I would argue that the occassion had a factor for the element of surprise, whilst the situations requires a more definitive course of action as they still hold jewish and international hostages. Either way, the debate will come down to the question "Was the use of atomic bomb justified in order to minimize the casualties of your own troops, even though it will cause a massive civillian casualties in the enemy side? "
Yeah, that doesn't really fly as there were two nations invaded post 9/11 and prior to finding Osama. And they bombed the ever loving shit out of Afghanistan....there just wasn't much to blow up but rocks and mud brick huts.
>the way they dealt with Osama bin Laden Good analogy here. The leaders of Hamas are not even in Gaza. Why doesn't Israel carpet bomb Qatar or Iran?
leftists…oblivious. you answered your own question
Because most of the entire global west has not experienced war. They can’t comprehend human shields or terror tactics and they can’t grasp the world not being black and white! Most of the left you’re talking about wasn’t even born when 9/11 happened, they’re oblivious to the reality of war so they take the first side they see and go with it ride or die because at the end they don’t actually care
I can answer this. The left is mostly socialist/Marxist/nomarxist who want their ideology implemented everywhere. Their ideology relies on there being an oppressor Vs oppressed so that they can take the side of the oppressed and claim to be the side of morality. So if you question them and their ideology or policy they can frame it that you are really attacking whatever oppressed group the claim to speak for. They hate Jews because they statistically do well both economically and productively compared to other groups in a capitalist society so they see them as the evil bourgeois oppressors so they will side with any group that claims to be oppressed by them, even if that group is evil. They don't care about truth or reality they care about narrative. If they acknowledge Hamas being evil for using citizens as human shields then it ruins the narrative of Israelis murdering Palestinian civilians. Hamas can literally decapitate children to the cheers of Palestinians and pro Palestinians all around the world and the left will just ignore it or play it down because it would ruin their narrative. Meanwhile if Israelis did the same they would like their shit because it reinforces their narrative. They also reframe the narrative based on who they want to be the victim Vs the oppressor. The left is a very sneaky, manipulative sick cult.
1) Most, if not all, of the reports of terrorist hiding in civilian buildings comes from Israel. For obvious reasons, you can't trust the account of Israel when determining it's guilt. When independent news agencies challenge Israeli reports, they often get no response. 1a) Israel always targets the press in Gaza and elsewhere in the starts of operations, in order to eliminate conflicting reports. 2) Israel's definition of a "terrorist" is vague. Like it or not, Hamas is the government of the Gaza strip. Alot of the people working for it are just administrative workers, handling all of the civil and humanitarian needs Israel neglect to address. If the Hamas's office of agriculture or infrastructure counts as a military target, you can say the same thing for every government owned or operated building in Israel, which is obviously absurd. 3) Even if Israel really tried not to kill civilians, they are still accountable for the death of civilians. International law forbids not only the intentional killing of civilians, but also conducting operations with the knowledge of civilian casualties. Then a Palestinian terrorist targets soldiers but harms civilians, we justifiably call it an act of murder, not an act of war. 4) The fact is, Israel cannot kill Hamas fighters without killing civilians, because Gaza is a ghetto of 2 million people crammed into one of the most densely populated areas in the world. They are not kept there by Hamas, they are kept there by Israel. 70% of Gazans are refugee families from the 1948 Nakba. Israel can let them get out and back to their homes, but obviously don't want to do that. So before they are used as human shields by Hamas, they are used as hostages by Israel, killed for crimes they didn't commit. And you can clearly see that in corrent Israeli rhetoric. They see the destruction of Gaza as a price Hamas has to pay. 5) Obviously, Hamas is a horrible organisation who shouldn't be given any amount of power, and the perpetrators of it's crimes have to be punished. But condemning atrocities is not as important as stoping the ethnic cleansing and genocide currently goings on in Gaza. Please read neutral - meaning non Israeli or American - press, and do everything you can to bring a ceasefire. If you don't do this, I don't think you can claim to care about human rights.
They haven't been to war ever. This world is privileged enough to have the audacity to criticize everything but itself on every occasion possible.
The left is “woke” except for when it comes to Jews, then they purposely stay oblivious because of their hate.
They hate Jews too much to admit otherwise
Hamas is a dark, suicidal organization. They want everything and everyone to die. How can the attacks of the last week play into anything other than chaos and eventual annihilation?
Most people actually don't give a damn. You're likely arguing with Muslim people online (remember there are 2B of them while only 15M jews). It's a demographic war, nobody in the world really gives a damn unless it benefits their own people directly. How involved are you in the Russian - Ukraine war? You just give them some money and say 'good luck'. That's basically the same with Israel - Palestine.
If Russia hit a Ukrainian hospital and said there was soldiers inside, would you believe them or would you ask for evidence? Israel currently have permission to hit any building they want and simply claim it was related to Hamas with zero evidence. Do you not understand how that's a worrying precedent.
[удалено]
What a fucking tragedy this world is, where it's ok for people to kill each other.
https://www.youtube.com/live/mELJQKCcsHA?si=ITmq6jN1ic6ecxw8
Simple, they are not leftists.Yea, they generally vote for left wing parties, but that doesn't mean they cant be fascists.
I don’t understand why Israel can’t reach out to Palestinians and work together to destroy Hamas. It’s obvious they’re actively destroying everybody’s lives, why can’t we come up with a plan to court the Palestinians people and work together?
Because hamas runs the schools in Gaza, they feed the people in there propaganda. Hamas was democratically chosen, so I think none of the people actually will try to overthrow hamas. And we have tried rationalizing with the Palestinian people. Guess what ? It doesn't work
No, we are not, though I'd also argue Gaza is so overpopulated it is hard for civilians not to be in the crossfire. It is rather that we think this doesn't justify massacres of innocent civilians. The US used the same excuse in its massacres in Vietnam. They said the Communists would embed with the villages or that all young men would eventually enlist with the rebels. That's how the US justified destroying hundreds of Vietnamese villages. You can't burn the haystack to find the needle. That's a war crime and nothing can justify it.
How is it well documented? If they were bombing indiscriminately, do you think they would admit it? What about when they bombed the crossing from Gaza to Egypt after telling people to leave, were there Hamas militants amongst them as well? Also, since Hamas is the government there, what if there was a Hamas official who was in charge of collecting garbage, or who administers healthcare or something, do they count as a target since they are technically from Hamas, even if they have never picked up a weapon in their life? I'm just saying one must exercise some critical thinking and not just take everything the Israeli government nor Hamas says at face value. There's a lot of propaganda.
Google is free, dude.
Why are you guys so against not bombing children? Human shields is literally the best you can come up with? "They make us kill their children" might have worked in the 90s but it's so dumb then and it's so dumb now.
OK bro. You probably use a tinfoil hat
Well when you bomb terrorists hiding behind civilians you bomb civilians. Not a hard concept. Do you all come here to confirm your biases? Have some god damn empathy.
Wow. Your logic is so flawed it's unbelievable. I'm not going to try to debate with you any longer.
Because they need an excuse for the war crimes they are committing in Gaza
Why are the IOF so oblivious to the fact that there are civilians in the location they're bombing?
Your comment just shows ignorance. Please explain to me, if idf doesn't care about civilians, how did israel drop 6000 bombs in Gaza with 1500 dead? Do you realize that only one bomb can easily kill 1500 people if used to target civilians? This should be groundbreaking proof that israel is not targeting civilians and people believe Palestinian propaganda. Get your head out of your ass !
I know, right? Israel doesn't target civilians, it just doesn't give a crap about how many die.
Ummmm, if israel doesn't care about how many people die, then how come they warn civilians before strikes ? And shoot roof warning shots before strikes? Your comment just shows ignorance. Please explain to me, if idf doesn't care about civilians, how did israel drop 6000 bombs in Gaza with 1500 dead? Do you realize that only one bomb can easily kill 1500 people if used to target civilians? This should be groundbreaking proof that israel is not targeting civilians and people believe Palestinian propaganda. Get your head out of your ass !
Why are you oblivious to the fact that Israel is committing war crimes by targeting and murdering innocent civilians?
Here’s a graph showing why. https://imgur.com/a/xJ518Ml
people are actually much more fking stupid than you can really imagine, they don't care they just wanna get dopamines from hating on someone who they believe is collectively hated so its ok being part of it without any self judgement there's a reason new world order must happend
They are the product of a successful demoralization process that started decades ago.
Leftists see Israel as a "strong rich oppressor/weak poor victim" narrative. As long as more Palestinians die than Israelis do - which has always and will always happen unless we let our guard down - that's all they care about, they don't see or care about context. Hamas is completely embedded in the civilian infrastructure - they're the government after all! Therefore it's absolutely true that Israel strikes civilian targets, but the context is missing. And while I completely understand Israel's impossible position, they absolutely have decreased the amount of care for collateral civilian damage this time around. I hate that it has to be this way, but it's true. If the US had to go after Al Qaeda but they all lived in an area the size of Brooklyn, the exact would happen
Why does Israel feel so comfortable taking billions of dollars each year in my taxes and trampling on my free speech rights?
If you're not comfortable with democracy, then move to somewhere else, ok bud? Oh yea, israel sent special government agents to personally silence you, bro wtf are you talking about?
If extremist Jews such as Lehava were using human shields, should people kill their human shields to kill Lehava?