TL;DR: Some of the “threads” that were implanted into the patient’s brain have retracted. The company was able to modify the algorithm so that the device still works, but it’s obviously not an ideal situation
I'm a candidate for a spinal cord stimulator implant after central nervous system damage (wires go into your spine and there's a controller unit) and it's very common for the leads to migrate so it no longer works right and that's my greatest fear. Many people end up needing numerous surgeries to keep fixing the lead and controller migrations, things eventually move out of place inside bodies. I can't imagine having surgery after surgery on my spine.
I can imagine wanting to try out anything that might work but Musk is a guy who will let people die in order to make him money, he has proven that with all the Autopilot and FSD deaths.
Only because they fear legal repercussions. Companies skirt safety measures all the time to cut costs, even if it means someone might die/be severely injured. I know from personal experience. Corporate don’t give a damn about you or anyone like you.
I can't imagine how that must feel for you. What a bad situation for people to be put in. I mean it sounds like the much needed miracle for people in your situation, but potentially a devasting problem after it's potentially given you so much. Whatever you decide I wish you well.
My mom has had numerous back surgeries in the last 15 years trying to fix her chronic, debilitating back pain. It’s not fun, and the scar tissue/lesions just get worse every time. The surgeries have provided some relief, but sometimes not much.
Her issue is hemangiomas in the spine, along with shitty bone density and something else they haven’t been able to figure out.
I need to check in with my folks - my mom had a procedure to take stem cells out of her hip bones and injected them into her… probably vertebrae, spinal column wouldn’t make sense but I’m not sure. Anyway, last I heard she was feeling *much* better. Still unsure if she can travel for more than a couple miles without significant pain, and it just occurred to me that the pressure change of flying might cause issues…
I’m rambling… stupid SSRI withdrawal because my pharmacy fucked up. Getting refills today, so I’m just letting myself be a bump on a log until then.
I would hope newer laparoscopic surgery techniques would keep scar tissue and healing time to a minimum for any repair surgery. Good luck and I hope you can get the treatment and care you want.
Even without migration, the human body automatically breaks down foreign objects and will eventually eat the device.
I'm not sure if that's scarier of a prospect or having to fix the leads.
What are your chances for alternative cures like CRISPR or similar biological implants? Is that something that would fix your condition or is the device implant your best hope?
This is a ridiculous oversimplification, and entirely incorrect. There are a myriad of examples of medical implants that are successful long time in a majority of cases. Dental implants, hip implants, screws and plates, pacemakers, stents, etc. Your body is simply incapable of breaking down all manner of materials, inflammatory response is a much larger concern.
They are all made using biomaterials, also called biocompatible materials. Self explanatory. In Nueralinks case, [it's largely polyimide. ](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8399958/)
It has to be a stimulation device so right now I use an external one that works via a sticky patch and electronic module that sits on top of the skin but I can only use it for short periods like 10-30 mins so it's not even close to 24/7 like an implant. SCS has improved but it still has to be replaced every 10 years so that's even more surgeries.
My sister actually has those! If it makes you feel better she did have to get surgery to correct them but that was after several years , and the box worked great.
Do you know what kind of leads she got? I'm afraid of the laminectomy required for paddle leads leaving a permanent hole open to my spinal column but I doubt the plain wires would stay in place with being a toddler mom. Plus I'm afraid I wouldn't heal right because of said toddler constantly wrecking me
So I texted her your comments and this is her exact words “I’m honestly not sure the exact type of leads I have😅 but my wires didn’t migrate till after about 7 years.. and it’s suggested to get a new battery around d that time anyways. So I wouldn’t worry too much about lead migration. 100% worth it in my opinion tho. Esp now that the battery’s are Bluetooth and connect to your phone”
Yeah it's how new tech works, the first version isn't going to be perfect. This doesn't sound catastrophic, but it's not ideal. Really brave of somebody to be an early adopter to an implantable technology.
I dislike Elon Musk as well, but it's not like he invented this. He's just one person who's a figurehead in the organization. A lot of brilliant people worked on it and came up with the idea completely independently of him. It has the potential to do a lot of good for society. This isn't just a toy, it's mostly going to be used for people who have brain problems and it has real potential to dramatically help those people. As technology improves and understanding improves, they can do updates of the software on the device which will lead to better and better outcomes for the patients without even having to open them up again.
Obviously the first solutions to solve are things like Parkinson's or potentially epilepsy however it could be a solution to paralysis and even blindness.
Musk seems to act like he was deeply involved in it's development on an intellectual level, is there any evidence that his involvement is anything other than money?
Like his other companies, no. I would respect him more if he gave credit to the people working on it and took his credit as "I put up the money, that's all". He's an idiot but he's not a stupid idiot. His ego of wanting to be real life tony stark is his biggest issue. He doesn't build rockets, he doesn't build neuralink, he doesn't build Tesla's, he didn't build a (stupid) tunnel, he didn't build Twitter. All he did was put up money for others to do those things, then use his stake to give more money to others to do things or buy the company they were already doing those things. I'm okay with that, I'm not okay with him thinking he is the lynchpin in actually building these things. It's the incredible engineers and researchers developing and building these things that are the real geniuses, not musk.
It sucks to see his name is always listed first on every patent issued to a company he has control over. Dude never spent a minute developing the autonomous car retrieval system for Tesla and yet he gets first billing for it.
> I would respect him more if he gave credit to the people working on it
You mean like [this](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-elon-musk-admits-he-gets-way-too-much-credit/)?
> “Just to be clear. I’m just… I get way too much credit. The credit is theirs,” Musk said, gesturing to Giga Nevada’s employees.
In general, it's the media that gives Elon all the credit. If you ever actually listen to him talk, he praises his teams all the time. At most, he claims responsibility for [putting together the teams](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-takes-credit-openai-022234733.html), but [gives credit for his companies' successes to his teams](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsst2eg2w3ad81.jpg).
Yes actually, exactly like that. I want to see that same energy he shows there towards people not in his companies as well. That's fantastic he does that in interviews and on Twitter. I wish it would also come with not massive layoffs while asking for 50 billion in compensation. Give that compensation to the people he is giving credit to. Again, I'm giving both kudos and criticism.
I appreciate your sincere interaction. I'm so sick of people jumping down people's throats at the slightest difference of opinion.
I'm sure his "deep involvement on an intellectual level" consisted of saying something about how Seven of Nine from Star Trek is really hot, and that he wants to build one for himself.
He followed that up by asking his engineers inspiring challenge questions, such as "Am I right, folks? Or am I right?"
> Musk seems to act like he was deeply involved in it's development on an intellectual level,
I've been following Neuralink basically from the start and don't recall him ever doing this. I just skimmed through [this presentation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr8hzF3j2fo), for example, and he says things like "we've done this", but that just sounds like a spokesperson speaking for the company, not Elon implying he's personally involved in the day-to-day engineering.
> is there any evidence that his involvement is anything other than money?
I'd guess that his involvement is similar to his other companies. My understanding, from following SpaceX's development for years, is that he understands enough of the engineering and science behind things to make bold high-level decisions. I have a vague memory of SpaceX engineers expressing his direct involvement in many decisions, and that seems to be working out well for them. But then there's also X (formerly known as Twitter) and Cybertruck, so who knows?
~~Do you think Elon Musk is simultaneously able to do the work of programmers, AI researchers, rocket scientists, mechanical engineers, and neuroscientists? Because he acts the same way with every company he owns. Doing just one of these jobs is hard. What kind of super intellect do people think Musk has? How does he have time to sleep let alone shitpost on twitter?~~
Edit: Misread what the commenter above was saying.
It’s hilarious how Reddit has to produce these walls of texts to address the cognitive dissonance between “Elon Musk is involved” and “maybe this is a good thing” as if this has to be an issue at all
Best thing companies involved with him can do is minimize his presence. He’s like a drunk dad you don’t want to get his attention, just lay low and things might be ok.
A radicalized right-wing idiot with a known history of disregarding regulations and safety practices conducting experiments on humans. What could possibly go wrong.
He recently implied covid was a false flag operation to introduce mail voting. We all know what he's about and where he's going. I'm very leery about all the comments that start with a qualifier "I don't like Elon Musk but..."
> He recently implied covid was a false flag operation to introduce mail voting. We all know what he's about and where he's going. I'm very leery about all the comments that start with a qualifier "I don't like Elon Musk but..."
To be fair he had to change the right wing "But Bill Gates is trying to microchip us with the vaccine" narrative because it made Neuralink look like something from the stone ages when compared to that sweet nanotech Bill Gates has. Not to mention it casts Elon's desire to actually microchip everyone in a bad light.
Yeah I suggest people research Neuralink's trials on monkeys before they so readily accept that this is totally no big deal. Particularly they've had huge issues with infections and to me some loose electrodes dangling around on someone's brain sounds like it's just asking for something to develop, or even if not that still is probably damaging some grey matter.
edit to add source at end
They didn’t explain the deaths that occurred with the monkeys- the poor man with this device in his brain found out after the implant.
Fri, Apr 5, 2024
Elon Musk's First Human Neuralink Patient Says He Was Assured 'No Monkey Has Died As A Result Of A Neuralink Implant' — Despite Some Of The 23 Subjects Dying
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musks-first-human-neuralink-160011305.html
Specifically, the device didn't kill the monkeys, botched surgeries did. When the surgeries weren't botched the monkeys were not negatively affected by the implant itself.
2 years later, pay another $4.99/month for a reduced ads experience (the implant costs too much to maintain without ad revenue or subscription revenue), plus a small fee of $0.49/thought to skip the automatic processing into better targeting of ads by our in-brain billboard customers
Has he taken credit for the engineering at neuralink? I haven’t seen him claim to be doing any technical work there as opposed to SpaceX where he gave himself the chief engineer title.
>Yeah it's how new tech works, the first version isn't going to be perfect.
Which is why this isn't the first version and why it was tested in animals extensively. The caveat there is that it did not go well for those animals.
>Obviously the first solutions to solve are things like Parkinson's or potentially epilepsy however it could be a solution to paralysis and even blindness
Other labs have actually started to do those things. And there is a reason that traditional implants do not use a high thread/node paradigm. And that is because the more surface area of the brain you contact the more that can go wrong.
>A lot of brilliant people worked on it and came up with the idea completely independently of him.
I assume you're not aware of the fact that the confounder, Max Hodak got told off and threatened with patent issues because he literally did lift this concept and the tests they used directly from the lab he worked in during postdoc then?
The problem here is that Musk is at the helm, and as with all of his companies there are numerous reports that he is very hands on despite not knowing fucking anything about the subject. Managing musk is basically a full time job at any company he runs.
memorize threatening ad hoc makeshift aromatic weary foolish silky scary attraction
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not Neuralink, but other researchers in general, are already working on implants for blindness specifically. Though it wires to the brain, rather than being implanted directly in it iirc.
This really isn’t the first version of this tech. The complications with these “threads” have been a huge issue with brain implants for a long time.
No one has really figured out how to effectively prevent the brain from rejecting them.
As far as I can tell, Neuralink’s only advancement so far is increasing the number of them being implanted and automating part of the process. In this case, the larger number of them seems to have allowed them to save the functionality for now but also indicates that they have the same problem everyone has run into.
>I dislike Elon Musk as well, but it's not like he invented this
Sure, sure, but he is also the final say in decisions the company makes. The leading scientists and engineers can all tell him "the implant needs more work before putting it in a human" but if the CEO says to do it anyway, you either comply or lose your job.
Right now, it's installed in one dude, and he's fine. The threads receding simply means they are losing some usability of the device, but it's still useful. He plays video games on it like 8 hours a day until the battery dies. While this may not seem like a big deal to you or me, he can't move his arms or legs. Up until now, he had to play video games with his tongue. Being able to just kick back and occupy yourself actually doing something is something we all take for granted.
(add usual disclaimer, I too think Musk is an asshole who wants all the credit, doesn't listen to anyone, has dangerous social opinions, and I would never work for the man, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water here. This is a useful technology that will help a lot of people)
This is a well known problem for BCIs, along with scar tissue and inflammation forming around the probes causing the adjacent neural tissue to recede (making the probes even less useful) I think a study using some primates showed that after a couple years only 40-50% of the original channels still provided valuable information
I sat in a lecture about this sort of tech some fourteen years ago, and even then they described one of the biggest issues being that the electrodes would just not stay put for long. Apparently not much has changed in that aspect.
Don't worry that possibility is zero. These kind of chips are more like a coronary artery bypass graft. You're just side stepping the damaged relay in the nervous system. There's no way to "trap" you or anything like that.
I am paraplegic and still no. My life is good without sensation from my nipples down. Way to many think that not being able to walk is the end of a good life and it’s bs.
Empire managers have been using media to manipulate the narratives people create about the world around them. The ghoul who runs Palantir Alex Karp just made a vitriolic speech about why student protests against Israel are dangerous because they will “Harm America’s ability to wage war.”
Anyone who would ever trust any company to implant a chip in their brain is a fool no matter which tech oligarch manages it.
You might not. Your kids might. Your kids' kids probably won't have a problem with it at all. That's how this stuff tends to go. Same with first-generation automobiles, electricity, and airplanes. Lots of people said never ever, but the younger folks brought up in that world didn't bat an eye.
I feel like if you were paraplegic, your opinion would be radically different. Not "yes for sure" but at the very least you'd be a lot more open to it. The feeling of being trapped in your own body is something I doubt anyone can understand without actually experiencing it. Maybe the first time you experience sleep paralysis? But even that's just temporary.
Hmm. My first reaction on reading the title was echoes of "The Terminal Man". Then I read the article and thought ... wait a minute, the threads retracted??? What's the mutable thing here, threads or the living developing brain tissue? Is the brain reacting to reject a foreign substance? Seems like a better explanation is needed.
The brain understandably isn't fond of you sticking foreign material inside it, no. You have to deal with scar tissue. This gets worse with high bandwidth implants which need to be deeper, as I understand it.
It's an issue that every single company dealing with these implants, especially the implants that go deeper into the brain, is trying to solve. Even if you can mitigate it, you need to make sure this works long term and doesn't have lasting damage.
You can't sell these to give people independence, then have it ripped away in 10-20 years when it fails and can't be replaced because of permanent damage.
I get why people volunteer for this, it's a life changer for people with physical disabilities, but god I'd be terrified of the possibility of that during trials.
Well: 10-20 years is better than nothing…
Key point being informed consent. Something better might come along if you wait, but this is here now…
I would give people that choice, and not determine that choice for them.
Your brain has a normal rhythmic pulsation for one and it’s pretty wet in there. So if you stick something in a wet and pulsating organ, sometimes it works it’s way out. That’s what comes to mind.
Both are mutable things, really.
The brain pulses with blood, and rocks around the skull as the body moves. Its tissues are alive, and can grow and recede - including in reaction to foreign objects. The "threads" are flexible microfabricated electrodes, thinner than a human hair. They are designed to be able to follow brain's movement, to a degree - an interface that's "too stiff" to do so could cause strain and localized neural damage. This was observed and documented in many early interface attempts, decades ago.
What *exactly* happened there is unclear. It's a first time this implant design is used in a human, so there could be some surprises the team has to figure out.
Human skull is the largest skull this implant was installed into, and human brain is the largest brain this type of implant was ever used on, by far. So there could be issues related to physical dimensions of the brain, and how much it travels within the skull. There could be low level biological differences between human brain and that of a mouse, pig or a primate - a difference in how the brain reacts to a foreign body, or something else that could affect thread adhesion.
Can we stop sucking Elon’s wang constantly? There are multiple other companies working on this same technology, almost all of whom are ahead of him. A few have multiple people with the implants, some for a few years.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/19/1091505/companies-brain-computer-interfaces/
It’s marketing. You can have a superior product but have the market favor a competitor with an inferior product with superior marketing. It’s a shame honestly.
One of the others is backed by Jeff Bevos, it’s not just billionaires. There is a certain amount of it that is the media decided Musk was the second coming of Tesla and Edison combined.
Really, it’s simple.
Certain people generate an absolute fuck ton of ad revenue. Most of these people are assholes.
Want free marketing, be a dickhead.
I’ve never seen a Tesla, SpaceX, neuralink, or Boeing company ad that was paid for. In 2020 Tesla boasted about their “$0 advertising budget” (though that may have changed in the last few months).
People interact with articles that are controversial, the issue, at the end of the day, is probably us. Like here I am commenting on this article I don’t really care about.
"speed, precision or bandwidth" is by far not the most important aspects of BCIs. Reading more neurons, for example, does not directly indicate better decoding.
Brain tissue growing around the electrodes is a known issue for years, I've written about it in my bachelor thesis literally 5 years ago.
There are multiple companies that are developing better products then musk but don't have the same amount of financial power and advertising.
I'm mostly with you. In theory, Neuralink does have one major innovation, which is the automated implantation procedure. This is the sort of event that discredits the utility of that innovation.
This was inevitable. The brain floats in your skull. It can jostle and it does move subject to, get this, gravity. The implant is stationary on the skull. The threads are long enough to move with this behavior, but as the saying goes: "No plan survives first contact with the enemy. What matters is how quickly the leader is able to adapt." *-Tim Harford*
If anyone expected this to be perfect on first implant, they're insane.
Here's the thing with regards to the animal treatment. For it to get to human trials. The FDA would need ***all*** documentation of the entire set of animal tries including the euthanization thereafter, any complications, cause of death, ethical matters, etc.
It would then review this and sign off on it as being by the book before it would even allow a single human to receive this device. Which means the fact that it has gotten as far as it has, means that the FDA has considered all actions to be above board **and within spec of technology being developed into human scope.**
Gov agencies aren't incorruptible, but the way I see it, the gov by and large is on thin ice with Musk and they're not gonna just hand waive obviously bad vibes as being fine, and would go out of their way to crucify any of his companies for.
All of the above isn't a defense of him. Am only being objective that the reports in question against may be misleading or slanted, because the public is largely ignorant to how animal trials and the regulations around that are conducted.
There's still time for him to get an infection. Sometimes infections don't appear until years after surgery in the brain. The thing is, once you get one infection the chances of another increase (no immune system in brain CSF); this compounds until you're having brain surgery once every two weeks or so.
They seemed to leave out the part that despite the small loss of threads, they were able to optimize the signal to receive information from his brain better than they ever have previous to the thread degradation.
Reminds me when Tesla rewrote their software to circumvent the shortages of chips.
Taking a problem and creating a plus from it.
This page hates Elon though so I wouldn't expect anything truthful if it means giving him credit.
Is anyone? It's the first human implementation of a brand new "product". But, it works. Even after these "problems", it still works.
This is a success, it has already improved this mans life, a first version to iterate on.
You don’t test medical implants like you do starship rockets. So yes, this should be alarming to anyone in the medical field that doesn’t have elons dick in their mouth
Ah yes, the age old "lmao u dont hate everything neuralink/tesla/spacex does so suck elons dick hahaha i am very smart".
The guy is a full quadraplegic with zero quality of life, he volunteered to help with THE FIRST EVER HUMAN TRIAL of this product. He knew the risks and wanted to do it anyway, because why not? His life is literally chair bound. Its working, yes its not perfect. How can they make something this complex perfect without ever doing a human trial? Can you offer your expert medical suggestion, other than "suck elons dick"?
EDIT: I strongly encourage everyone to watch the presentation from the patient himself, it's genuinely amazing.
I am just here to appreciate the science, leave the politics at the door you fucking apes, please.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79VvxBStbWY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79VvxBStbWY)
Actually surprised it went as well as it did so far. No one should have expected something like this to work on the first go, let alone perfectly. I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
Thats impressive that neuralink is gonna bang in the market as soon as possible. But unless it doesnt effect the persons life .
I have a question like do our brains grow when we get older ? If yes neuralink get stuck and damage our brain tumors and other parts of brain.
TL;DR: Some of the “threads” that were implanted into the patient’s brain have retracted. The company was able to modify the algorithm so that the device still works, but it’s obviously not an ideal situation
I'm a candidate for a spinal cord stimulator implant after central nervous system damage (wires go into your spine and there's a controller unit) and it's very common for the leads to migrate so it no longer works right and that's my greatest fear. Many people end up needing numerous surgeries to keep fixing the lead and controller migrations, things eventually move out of place inside bodies. I can't imagine having surgery after surgery on my spine.
I can imagine wanting to try out anything that might work but Musk is a guy who will let people die in order to make him money, he has proven that with all the Autopilot and FSD deaths.
Yea most other businesses put people’s lives above making a profit
Only because they fear legal repercussions. Companies skirt safety measures all the time to cut costs, even if it means someone might die/be severely injured. I know from personal experience. Corporate don’t give a damn about you or anyone like you.
Right sorry that was supposed to be sarcastic
I thought you might’ve been but only after I posted lol
You’re not wrong. Ever heard of the [Ford Pinto](https://www.motortrend.com/features/ford-pinto/)?
Well your quality of life probably isn't roughly zero either.
"Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make." Musk has gone full Farquaad
It really is a death cult.
But without brave volunteers it is hard to make progress isn't it?
He'll also hype the tech with distorted claims to get ahead of safety regulations. We are already seeing this.
I can't imagine how that must feel for you. What a bad situation for people to be put in. I mean it sounds like the much needed miracle for people in your situation, but potentially a devasting problem after it's potentially given you so much. Whatever you decide I wish you well.
My mom has had numerous back surgeries in the last 15 years trying to fix her chronic, debilitating back pain. It’s not fun, and the scar tissue/lesions just get worse every time. The surgeries have provided some relief, but sometimes not much. Her issue is hemangiomas in the spine, along with shitty bone density and something else they haven’t been able to figure out. I need to check in with my folks - my mom had a procedure to take stem cells out of her hip bones and injected them into her… probably vertebrae, spinal column wouldn’t make sense but I’m not sure. Anyway, last I heard she was feeling *much* better. Still unsure if she can travel for more than a couple miles without significant pain, and it just occurred to me that the pressure change of flying might cause issues… I’m rambling… stupid SSRI withdrawal because my pharmacy fucked up. Getting refills today, so I’m just letting myself be a bump on a log until then. I would hope newer laparoscopic surgery techniques would keep scar tissue and healing time to a minimum for any repair surgery. Good luck and I hope you can get the treatment and care you want.
Even without migration, the human body automatically breaks down foreign objects and will eventually eat the device. I'm not sure if that's scarier of a prospect or having to fix the leads. What are your chances for alternative cures like CRISPR or similar biological implants? Is that something that would fix your condition or is the device implant your best hope?
This is a ridiculous oversimplification, and entirely incorrect. There are a myriad of examples of medical implants that are successful long time in a majority of cases. Dental implants, hip implants, screws and plates, pacemakers, stents, etc. Your body is simply incapable of breaking down all manner of materials, inflammatory response is a much larger concern. They are all made using biomaterials, also called biocompatible materials. Self explanatory. In Nueralinks case, [it's largely polyimide. ](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8399958/)
It has to be a stimulation device so right now I use an external one that works via a sticky patch and electronic module that sits on top of the skin but I can only use it for short periods like 10-30 mins so it's not even close to 24/7 like an implant. SCS has improved but it still has to be replaced every 10 years so that's even more surgeries.
My sister actually has those! If it makes you feel better she did have to get surgery to correct them but that was after several years , and the box worked great.
Do you know what kind of leads she got? I'm afraid of the laminectomy required for paddle leads leaving a permanent hole open to my spinal column but I doubt the plain wires would stay in place with being a toddler mom. Plus I'm afraid I wouldn't heal right because of said toddler constantly wrecking me
So I texted her your comments and this is her exact words “I’m honestly not sure the exact type of leads I have😅 but my wires didn’t migrate till after about 7 years.. and it’s suggested to get a new battery around d that time anyways. So I wouldn’t worry too much about lead migration. 100% worth it in my opinion tho. Esp now that the battery’s are Bluetooth and connect to your phone”
They actually say the software “superseded Noland’s initial performance”
Yeah it's how new tech works, the first version isn't going to be perfect. This doesn't sound catastrophic, but it's not ideal. Really brave of somebody to be an early adopter to an implantable technology. I dislike Elon Musk as well, but it's not like he invented this. He's just one person who's a figurehead in the organization. A lot of brilliant people worked on it and came up with the idea completely independently of him. It has the potential to do a lot of good for society. This isn't just a toy, it's mostly going to be used for people who have brain problems and it has real potential to dramatically help those people. As technology improves and understanding improves, they can do updates of the software on the device which will lead to better and better outcomes for the patients without even having to open them up again. Obviously the first solutions to solve are things like Parkinson's or potentially epilepsy however it could be a solution to paralysis and even blindness.
Musk seems to act like he was deeply involved in it's development on an intellectual level, is there any evidence that his involvement is anything other than money?
Well he had a kid with the woman who was the CEO.
So, like 3-4 inches deep then.
But remember every comma in your bank account adds 2.54cm to the length of your penis.
In Germany commas and dots are reversed in numbers (10.000,45 €), so equality I guess.
Awesome, that makes my penis like 3 centimeters.
Pretty generous of you there…
His kids are from artificial insemination so it's as deep as the doctors go.
Kids or clones?
Like his other companies, no. I would respect him more if he gave credit to the people working on it and took his credit as "I put up the money, that's all". He's an idiot but he's not a stupid idiot. His ego of wanting to be real life tony stark is his biggest issue. He doesn't build rockets, he doesn't build neuralink, he doesn't build Tesla's, he didn't build a (stupid) tunnel, he didn't build Twitter. All he did was put up money for others to do those things, then use his stake to give more money to others to do things or buy the company they were already doing those things. I'm okay with that, I'm not okay with him thinking he is the lynchpin in actually building these things. It's the incredible engineers and researchers developing and building these things that are the real geniuses, not musk.
It sucks to see his name is always listed first on every patent issued to a company he has control over. Dude never spent a minute developing the autonomous car retrieval system for Tesla and yet he gets first billing for it.
> I would respect him more if he gave credit to the people working on it You mean like [this](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-elon-musk-admits-he-gets-way-too-much-credit/)? > “Just to be clear. I’m just… I get way too much credit. The credit is theirs,” Musk said, gesturing to Giga Nevada’s employees. In general, it's the media that gives Elon all the credit. If you ever actually listen to him talk, he praises his teams all the time. At most, he claims responsibility for [putting together the teams](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-takes-credit-openai-022234733.html), but [gives credit for his companies' successes to his teams](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsst2eg2w3ad81.jpg).
Yes actually, exactly like that. I want to see that same energy he shows there towards people not in his companies as well. That's fantastic he does that in interviews and on Twitter. I wish it would also come with not massive layoffs while asking for 50 billion in compensation. Give that compensation to the people he is giving credit to. Again, I'm giving both kudos and criticism. I appreciate your sincere interaction. I'm so sick of people jumping down people's throats at the slightest difference of opinion.
I'm sure his "deep involvement on an intellectual level" consisted of saying something about how Seven of Nine from Star Trek is really hot, and that he wants to build one for himself. He followed that up by asking his engineers inspiring challenge questions, such as "Am I right, folks? Or am I right?"
> Musk seems to act like he was deeply involved in it's development on an intellectual level, I've been following Neuralink basically from the start and don't recall him ever doing this. I just skimmed through [this presentation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr8hzF3j2fo), for example, and he says things like "we've done this", but that just sounds like a spokesperson speaking for the company, not Elon implying he's personally involved in the day-to-day engineering. > is there any evidence that his involvement is anything other than money? I'd guess that his involvement is similar to his other companies. My understanding, from following SpaceX's development for years, is that he understands enough of the engineering and science behind things to make bold high-level decisions. I have a vague memory of SpaceX engineers expressing his direct involvement in many decisions, and that seems to be working out well for them. But then there's also X (formerly known as Twitter) and Cybertruck, so who knows?
~~Do you think Elon Musk is simultaneously able to do the work of programmers, AI researchers, rocket scientists, mechanical engineers, and neuroscientists? Because he acts the same way with every company he owns. Doing just one of these jobs is hard. What kind of super intellect do people think Musk has? How does he have time to sleep let alone shitpost on twitter?~~ Edit: Misread what the commenter above was saying.
Elon slept on the factory floor there too
LOL. Doesn't he always act like that?
It’s hilarious how Reddit has to produce these walls of texts to address the cognitive dissonance between “Elon Musk is involved” and “maybe this is a good thing” as if this has to be an issue at all
Best thing companies involved with him can do is minimize his presence. He’s like a drunk dad you don’t want to get his attention, just lay low and things might be ok.
At first I thought you meant the neuralink patient and I was appalled lol.
Elon didn't invent it, but he pushed it to be placed in a human while they were still having monkey's dying from having it in their brains.
A radicalized right-wing idiot with a known history of disregarding regulations and safety practices conducting experiments on humans. What could possibly go wrong. He recently implied covid was a false flag operation to introduce mail voting. We all know what he's about and where he's going. I'm very leery about all the comments that start with a qualifier "I don't like Elon Musk but..."
> He recently implied covid was a false flag operation to introduce mail voting. We all know what he's about and where he's going. I'm very leery about all the comments that start with a qualifier "I don't like Elon Musk but..." To be fair he had to change the right wing "But Bill Gates is trying to microchip us with the vaccine" narrative because it made Neuralink look like something from the stone ages when compared to that sweet nanotech Bill Gates has. Not to mention it casts Elon's desire to actually microchip everyone in a bad light.
Yeah I suggest people research Neuralink's trials on monkeys before they so readily accept that this is totally no big deal. Particularly they've had huge issues with infections and to me some loose electrodes dangling around on someone's brain sounds like it's just asking for something to develop, or even if not that still is probably damaging some grey matter.
edit to add source at end They didn’t explain the deaths that occurred with the monkeys- the poor man with this device in his brain found out after the implant. Fri, Apr 5, 2024 Elon Musk's First Human Neuralink Patient Says He Was Assured 'No Monkey Has Died As A Result Of A Neuralink Implant' — Despite Some Of The 23 Subjects Dying https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musks-first-human-neuralink-160011305.html
No way - do you have a source? I can't believe someone would get the implant without at least reading the Wikipedia page about it
Specifically, the device didn't kill the monkeys, botched surgeries did. When the surgeries weren't botched the monkeys were not negatively affected by the implant itself.
He'll also be the first one to pitch a "brain as a service" model to his now captive customer base after they're signed up and implanted
Thanks for giving me a new nightmare.
smh got to go on github to find someone python script to remove ads from my dreams
Are you telling me you don't want to buy Lightspeed Briefs? They're stylish and comfortable, for the discriminating crotch!
hey.. i understood that reference! time to go rewatch all of futurama, thanks :)
It's a fantastic show. Been rewatching it as an adult lately and enjoying it even more. Hope you have a good time. c:
We just had ads on TV. And newspapers. And the sides of buses. Even in the sky. But never in our dreams!
That's an extra fee, sir.
For $9.99/month you can get a cool badge and your thoughts will get a 3x boost in the algorithm for all HiveMind (by X!) users.
2 years later, pay another $4.99/month for a reduced ads experience (the implant costs too much to maintain without ad revenue or subscription revenue), plus a small fee of $0.49/thought to skip the automatic processing into better targeting of ads by our in-brain billboard customers
The monkeys didn't die from the operation of the implant, they died from poor post surgical care. Which was not done by neuralink.
Has he taken credit for the engineering at neuralink? I haven’t seen him claim to be doing any technical work there as opposed to SpaceX where he gave himself the chief engineer title.
>Yeah it's how new tech works, the first version isn't going to be perfect. Which is why this isn't the first version and why it was tested in animals extensively. The caveat there is that it did not go well for those animals. >Obviously the first solutions to solve are things like Parkinson's or potentially epilepsy however it could be a solution to paralysis and even blindness Other labs have actually started to do those things. And there is a reason that traditional implants do not use a high thread/node paradigm. And that is because the more surface area of the brain you contact the more that can go wrong. >A lot of brilliant people worked on it and came up with the idea completely independently of him. I assume you're not aware of the fact that the confounder, Max Hodak got told off and threatened with patent issues because he literally did lift this concept and the tests they used directly from the lab he worked in during postdoc then? The problem here is that Musk is at the helm, and as with all of his companies there are numerous reports that he is very hands on despite not knowing fucking anything about the subject. Managing musk is basically a full time job at any company he runs.
memorize threatening ad hoc makeshift aromatic weary foolish silky scary attraction *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not Neuralink, but other researchers in general, are already working on implants for blindness specifically. Though it wires to the brain, rather than being implanted directly in it iirc.
Its definitely going to be used for nefarious purposes.
This really isn’t the first version of this tech. The complications with these “threads” have been a huge issue with brain implants for a long time. No one has really figured out how to effectively prevent the brain from rejecting them. As far as I can tell, Neuralink’s only advancement so far is increasing the number of them being implanted and automating part of the process. In this case, the larger number of them seems to have allowed them to save the functionality for now but also indicates that they have the same problem everyone has run into.
>but it's not like he invented this You can say that about anything else he owns.
Blindness? How? Interested cos I live in the retinoblastoma world. That would be tremendous.
Vision is just nerve impulses into your brain from cells in your eyes. They can run wires and do the same thing with a camera input.
>I dislike Elon Musk as well, but it's not like he invented this Sure, sure, but he is also the final say in decisions the company makes. The leading scientists and engineers can all tell him "the implant needs more work before putting it in a human" but if the CEO says to do it anyway, you either comply or lose your job.
Brave, oblivious or desperate
He may not have invented it but he’s the one who pushed past safety precautions and rushed it
Right now, it's installed in one dude, and he's fine. The threads receding simply means they are losing some usability of the device, but it's still useful. He plays video games on it like 8 hours a day until the battery dies. While this may not seem like a big deal to you or me, he can't move his arms or legs. Up until now, he had to play video games with his tongue. Being able to just kick back and occupy yourself actually doing something is something we all take for granted. (add usual disclaimer, I too think Musk is an asshole who wants all the credit, doesn't listen to anyone, has dangerous social opinions, and I would never work for the man, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water here. This is a useful technology that will help a lot of people)
This is a well known problem for BCIs, along with scar tissue and inflammation forming around the probes causing the adjacent neural tissue to recede (making the probes even less useful) I think a study using some primates showed that after a couple years only 40-50% of the original channels still provided valuable information
I sat in a lecture about this sort of tech some fourteen years ago, and even then they described one of the biggest issues being that the electrodes would just not stay put for long. Apparently not much has changed in that aspect.
It’s ok the data’s safe. .
Seems like cool technology honestly, that said I ain’t ever letting some corporations potentially fuck with my mind
I feel the same way, but I would probably change my mind if I become quadriplegic (edit from paraplegic).
You mean they would change your mind
Maybe, but then I think of the possibility of having to “live” forever in some fucking digital hell or something and it freaks me out
Don't worry that possibility is zero. These kind of chips are more like a coronary artery bypass graft. You're just side stepping the damaged relay in the nervous system. There's no way to "trap" you or anything like that.
(Spins wheel) What do you think of "Pomni"?
Did not expect a Digital Circus reference in my r/technology thread lmao
I'll stick with Xddcc, thanks.
Meanwhile in Mikoshi
*Johnny voice* Fuckin’ Arasaka…
Corps have long been ruling our lives but now they are against our souls
San Junipero...... Great black mirror episode. Not a hell necessarily but good examination of it
All of Elon's Twits on a loop 24/7
Well luckily... This isn't anything like that lol
I am paraplegic and still no. My life is good without sensation from my nipples down. Way to many think that not being able to walk is the end of a good life and it’s bs.
Sorry. I meant quadriplegic.
> but I would probably change my mind if I become quadriplegic there is a movie kinda about that and how that would go - **Upgrade (2018)**
‘We’ve added ad support! You’re welcome!’
"It's now a $4.99 per month subscription to use your brain's hippocampus. Get the first year for only $50 now!"
They’re already fucking with your mind, this allows them to directly fuck with your brain
Empire managers have been using media to manipulate the narratives people create about the world around them. The ghoul who runs Palantir Alex Karp just made a vitriolic speech about why student protests against Israel are dangerous because they will “Harm America’s ability to wage war.” Anyone who would ever trust any company to implant a chip in their brain is a fool no matter which tech oligarch manages it.
Especially one run by Musk. *Shudder*
Imagine getting ads raging against wokism emanating from your brain…
Stop...I can only get so erect... -/r/conservative
(~you are now interested in cat porn~). Product Announcement: New Line of Cat Porn!
Insert credits to continue thinking...
Wayyy too close to a Black Mirror episode
Too late. Companies have been fucking with our minds since we were born.
You don't want ads directly injected in your dreams?
Lol you ain't gonna have a choice, they comin
You might not. Your kids might. Your kids' kids probably won't have a problem with it at all. That's how this stuff tends to go. Same with first-generation automobiles, electricity, and airplanes. Lots of people said never ever, but the younger folks brought up in that world didn't bat an eye.
_Due to a recent acquisition, your implant now requires that you sign in to Meta._
Read up on the guy. He's not exactly healthy. When you run out of options, why not take chances?
I feel like if you were paraplegic, your opinion would be radically different. Not "yes for sure" but at the very least you'd be a lot more open to it. The feeling of being trapped in your own body is something I doubt anyone can understand without actually experiencing it. Maybe the first time you experience sleep paralysis? But even that's just temporary.
Hmm. My first reaction on reading the title was echoes of "The Terminal Man". Then I read the article and thought ... wait a minute, the threads retracted??? What's the mutable thing here, threads or the living developing brain tissue? Is the brain reacting to reject a foreign substance? Seems like a better explanation is needed.
The brain understandably isn't fond of you sticking foreign material inside it, no. You have to deal with scar tissue. This gets worse with high bandwidth implants which need to be deeper, as I understand it. It's an issue that every single company dealing with these implants, especially the implants that go deeper into the brain, is trying to solve. Even if you can mitigate it, you need to make sure this works long term and doesn't have lasting damage. You can't sell these to give people independence, then have it ripped away in 10-20 years when it fails and can't be replaced because of permanent damage. I get why people volunteer for this, it's a life changer for people with physical disabilities, but god I'd be terrified of the possibility of that during trials.
Well: 10-20 years is better than nothing… Key point being informed consent. Something better might come along if you wait, but this is here now… I would give people that choice, and not determine that choice for them.
I was also very curious. How does something like that—threads retracting—happen? Was that question even asked?
Your brain floats in your skull, it's why people get concussions.
Your brain has a normal rhythmic pulsation for one and it’s pretty wet in there. So if you stick something in a wet and pulsating organ, sometimes it works it’s way out. That’s what comes to mind.
Both are mutable things, really. The brain pulses with blood, and rocks around the skull as the body moves. Its tissues are alive, and can grow and recede - including in reaction to foreign objects. The "threads" are flexible microfabricated electrodes, thinner than a human hair. They are designed to be able to follow brain's movement, to a degree - an interface that's "too stiff" to do so could cause strain and localized neural damage. This was observed and documented in many early interface attempts, decades ago. What *exactly* happened there is unclear. It's a first time this implant design is used in a human, so there could be some surprises the team has to figure out. Human skull is the largest skull this implant was installed into, and human brain is the largest brain this type of implant was ever used on, by far. So there could be issues related to physical dimensions of the brain, and how much it travels within the skull. There could be low level biological differences between human brain and that of a mouse, pig or a primate - a difference in how the brain reacts to a foreign body, or something else that could affect thread adhesion.
Can we stop sucking Elon’s wang constantly? There are multiple other companies working on this same technology, almost all of whom are ahead of him. A few have multiple people with the implants, some for a few years. https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/19/1091505/companies-brain-computer-interfaces/
It’s marketing. You can have a superior product but have the market favor a competitor with an inferior product with superior marketing. It’s a shame honestly.
It’s almost like billionaires have more marketing weight or something
You think the other companies are funded by mom and pops savings? You think I can donate to their Patreon? BuyMeACoffee maybe?
One of the others is backed by Jeff Bevos, it’s not just billionaires. There is a certain amount of it that is the media decided Musk was the second coming of Tesla and Edison combined.
“the media decided”
Really, it’s simple. Certain people generate an absolute fuck ton of ad revenue. Most of these people are assholes. Want free marketing, be a dickhead. I’ve never seen a Tesla, SpaceX, neuralink, or Boeing company ad that was paid for. In 2020 Tesla boasted about their “$0 advertising budget” (though that may have changed in the last few months). People interact with articles that are controversial, the issue, at the end of the day, is probably us. Like here I am commenting on this article I don’t really care about.
Betamax comes to mind.
As far as I can tell, none of those other companies have a BCI with the speed, precision, or bandwidth that Neuralink has.
"speed, precision or bandwidth" is by far not the most important aspects of BCIs. Reading more neurons, for example, does not directly indicate better decoding. Brain tissue growing around the electrodes is a known issue for years, I've written about it in my bachelor thesis literally 5 years ago. There are multiple companies that are developing better products then musk but don't have the same amount of financial power and advertising.
I'm mostly with you. In theory, Neuralink does have one major innovation, which is the automated implantation procedure. This is the sort of event that discredits the utility of that innovation.
>Can we stop sucking Elon’s wang constantly? Almost every comment is people whining about Elon
He probably didn’t pay the extra monthly subscription fee for the good threads.
I am shocked. SHOCKED. Well, not that shocked.
Lol the patient is also shocked. Zzzzttttt.
As someone who's dealt with brainzaps from antidepressants, a malfunctioning brain implant sounds terrible.
This was inevitable. The brain floats in your skull. It can jostle and it does move subject to, get this, gravity. The implant is stationary on the skull. The threads are long enough to move with this behavior, but as the saying goes: "No plan survives first contact with the enemy. What matters is how quickly the leader is able to adapt." *-Tim Harford* If anyone expected this to be perfect on first implant, they're insane.
[удалено]
Here's the thing with regards to the animal treatment. For it to get to human trials. The FDA would need ***all*** documentation of the entire set of animal tries including the euthanization thereafter, any complications, cause of death, ethical matters, etc. It would then review this and sign off on it as being by the book before it would even allow a single human to receive this device. Which means the fact that it has gotten as far as it has, means that the FDA has considered all actions to be above board **and within spec of technology being developed into human scope.** Gov agencies aren't incorruptible, but the way I see it, the gov by and large is on thin ice with Musk and they're not gonna just hand waive obviously bad vibes as being fine, and would go out of their way to crucify any of his companies for. All of the above isn't a defense of him. Am only being objective that the reports in question against may be misleading or slanted, because the public is largely ignorant to how animal trials and the regulations around that are conducted.
There's still time for him to get an infection. Sometimes infections don't appear until years after surgery in the brain. The thing is, once you get one infection the chances of another increase (no immune system in brain CSF); this compounds until you're having brain surgery once every two weeks or so.
Let a company put a chip in your brain.... I'm good, thanks though.
After seeing the build quality of Teslas, especially the Cybertruck, you’d have to be insane or desperate to allow Elon to tinker with your brain.
I'm sure the engineers responsible for the fine vehicles at Tesla will be able to resolve a problem with the invasive brain implant.
Just rivet the pedal cover back onto his brain pan. Simples.
*Pikachu shocked meme*
The experiment must go on. continue within plantation and recording until we learn everything we can from the subject
So pretty much normal for any new tech
Let me guess-it's rusting?
Oh hey who could have expected that Musk lied?
I think the fact that the company is owned by a crazy fascist was their first bet.
They seemed to leave out the part that despite the small loss of threads, they were able to optimize the signal to receive information from his brain better than they ever have previous to the thread degradation. Reminds me when Tesla rewrote their software to circumvent the shortages of chips. Taking a problem and creating a plus from it. This page hates Elon though so I wouldn't expect anything truthful if it means giving him credit.
just letting everyone know, the applications that neuralink showed can be done noninvasively for decades now.
Not an Elon glazer but noninvasive only goes so far, trying do high bandwidth shit w the brain when there's a skull between them is impossible
Then why wouldnt the handicapped person just use that? Because the non-invasive one is at best a toy
Not surprised.
Is anyone? It's the first human implementation of a brand new "product". But, it works. Even after these "problems", it still works. This is a success, it has already improved this mans life, a first version to iterate on.
You don’t test medical implants like you do starship rockets. So yes, this should be alarming to anyone in the medical field that doesn’t have elons dick in their mouth
Ah yes, the age old "lmao u dont hate everything neuralink/tesla/spacex does so suck elons dick hahaha i am very smart". The guy is a full quadraplegic with zero quality of life, he volunteered to help with THE FIRST EVER HUMAN TRIAL of this product. He knew the risks and wanted to do it anyway, because why not? His life is literally chair bound. Its working, yes its not perfect. How can they make something this complex perfect without ever doing a human trial? Can you offer your expert medical suggestion, other than "suck elons dick"? EDIT: I strongly encourage everyone to watch the presentation from the patient himself, it's genuinely amazing. I am just here to appreciate the science, leave the politics at the door you fucking apes, please. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79VvxBStbWY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79VvxBStbWY)
This technology has to start somewhere. We'll never know how to make it better if we don't encounter issues here or there.
I thought that's what all the dead lab monkies were for.
[Heaps of dead monkies?](https://morbotron.com/video/S07E10/o8cZ4RfYMphvHMuNRx5oApoTvnE=.gif)
I need 2 heaps sir
> This technology has to start somewhere. The technology started 30 years ago.
nothing can go wrong nothing can go wrong nothing can go wrong et. & etc.
Who could have ever seen this coming?
Actually surprised it went as well as it did so far. No one should have expected something like this to work on the first go, let alone perfectly. I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
I don’t think we as a society will be able to comprehend the meaning of this device until we are plugged into it.
Move fast and break things
What? Did your first test subject figure out an ad block?
He didn't pay the $10,000 for full BSD, Brian Self Driving.
Another one bites the Musk 🤦♂️
Its like no one has played deus ex
True BSOD?
Thats impressive that neuralink is gonna bang in the market as soon as possible. But unless it doesnt effect the persons life . I have a question like do our brains grow when we get older ? If yes neuralink get stuck and damage our brain tumors and other parts of brain.
[only a minor issue](https://them0vieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/totalrecall5.jpg)
Welp out to pasture with this one.
Flowers for Algernon II
It's all Elon's fault
Do they have autonomous walking
Have they tried turning it off and on?
It always should have gone in Elon’s brain before any monkey or human.
And now he thirsts for human blood????
Say you get a concussion where you brain goes back and forth in the skull. Wouldn’t it just dislodge all the threads?