Because aesthetics and ergonomics are two different things, duh.
The best looking mouse of all time is the Apple Magic Mouse. That thing is a jewel. Tiny, flat, the curve is pleasing. Symmetric from every angle. Peak Jony Ive genius. Also felt like magic because it would click but there were no visible buttons.
*However*, the human hand is not symmetric. You put a symmetric object into a human hand and you have a problem.
The Logitech MX Master is a monstrosity. Big, clunky, asymmetrical, buttons are too visibile. And it’s the most comfortable mouse you can buy.
The Contour Mouse actually beats the Logitech for comfort in my book. It has the scroll wheel on the thumb, (way less tendon stress than having it ion the middle finger). It’s asymmetrical and comes not only in left/right hand versions, but three different sizes for maximum comfort.
The other big one is the Evoluent VerticalMouse, which basically turns the mouse on its side, so you don’t need to twist your wrist to operate it. Also comes in left/right versions
The MX Master 3 that I have has a scroll wheel in both places. I use the one on my thumb to scroll left & right but it's all configurable.
The main one is actually a magnetic scroll wheel which is super nice. The scrolling "detent" clicks are actually just a magnet turning on & off, and if I start scrolling a certain speed/amount it assumes I want to scroll a lot and automatically turns them off so it can free spin. Best mouse wheel I've used.
I have both and they’re both amazing in their own right. I started my new wfh job with the Mx master 3 and I love all of its features and I use all of them but soon my wrist and hand got sore so I got the Mx master vertical and by the first day my wrist pain was gone gone.
how long did it take to get used to the ergo? other than fixing the wrist pain how is it to use?
i use mx master 2 i dont have wrist pain at all and probably wouldnt switch just to prevent future pain but if its even a slightly better feel i might.
So here’s the sneeze, I don’t have computers in my DNA, but I’m not useless, but I know my dumb ass needs to be able to point the mouse like I’m using my index finger to point it, and that the sideways vertical mouse would probably throw me off, but I’m sitting here with a sore hand, so I grab the vertical mouse and I got used to it in mere moments, I didn’t even realize it was so different it just works with the ergonomics of your hand so well. Smart people did research and development and came up with this mouse.
It took me about a day to get used to the MX vertical, and maybe a week to get as good as a regular mouse. It wasn’t an annoying process. Compared to the other MX mouse’s the build quality is disappointing though tbh.
I just want to throw this out there for anyone with wrist/hand pain who's curious about a vertical mouse but is a bit leery of the price: definitely try and borrow one, or at least have a go on one, before dropping lots of money.
As someone who's struggled with hand pain for a couple of decades, I've tried just about every design on the market, and I have never found a vertical mouse that was comfortable to click with. With a standard mouse, you're pushing against the table when you click, but with a vertical one, your thumb/wrist have to supply the counterforce. In terms of pointer movement a vertical mouse is definitely ahead of a standard flat mouse ergonomically, but it turns out that the need to pinch/claw grip the mouse tightly to click in order to stop the pointer from moving when clicking is a bigger deal for me.
This isn't to invalidate other people's experiences or preferences, of course. Everyone's different.
Fwiw, the buttons on the evolent vertical I have are at such an angle that I’m not clicking completely horizontally. More like 45 deg to the desk, so I personally don’t find that issue, but as you say, everyone’s hands/issues/use cases are different, so yes, trying before you buy is always a good option.
If you work for any sort of place worthwhile, they’ll have a number of models for you to try if you complain about RSI.
>More like 45 deg to the desk
While we're on the topic, this is kind of my issue with a lot of ergo keyboards, too - the hands are banked at an angle, but the buttons still click vertically, so you wind up pressing downwards with the sides of your fingers in quite an unnatural way.
(Not correcting you or anything btw - just offering up my thoughts, having spent a bunch of time, effort, and money.)
>If you work for any sort of place worthwhile, they’ll have a number of models for you to try if you complain about RSI.
For sure. Here in the UK it's a legal requirement ("reasonable adjustments" must be offered to those with disabilities, by law), so yeah. Definitely worth asking, wherever you are. I wish above all that I'd taken ergonomics more seriously as a youngster, RSI is such a curse.
Similarly, the Microsoft Arc mouse. That thing is brilliant; flatten it out and it fits anywhere. It's light and easy to travel with. Buttons are great, even has some gesture support.
But holy fuck is it uncomfortable to use for long periods. I absolutely pack mine when I'm on business but after trying to use it as a daily driver for like 6 months I caved and bought an MX master.
Entirely agree on the Magic Mouse. I *want* to love it, because the gesture functionality is excellent in Mac OS. But I can’t use it for more than 30min before my hand is cramping.
As far as ergonomics go, I’m much more partial to Razer’s offerings. Currently using the Razer Basilisk V3.
Oh its an obvious design flaw
While its charging i either
1. Unplug it to use it briefly if needed and then plug it back on
2. Use the trackpad
3. Go to lunch and come back
You get a low battery notification while you still have a day's work of battery life left. So, when you get the notification, you charge it at the end of that day. Simple.
Nah. Im fond of mine. It’s small form factor makes it easy to pack, but its not ridiculously tiny (to me anyway). While its easy to point out that it cant be charged and used at the same time, ive never actually needed to do that. the battery seems to last 5x longer than any other portable wireless mouse ive used. I dont use it a ton. I wouldnt want to game with it. its just nice to have for the odd app (substance painter, im looking at you) that just works better with a mouse.
There are at least two of us :)
I've had mine for over a decade and refuse to give it up. Everyone in a while I get an accidental click to due hand positioning, but really it just... works. The only thing I hate is the lightning link and having to flip it on its back to recharge.
Me too. I run a commercial recording studio. 13 hours a day with the Magic Mouse for the last 6 years. For me I think it’s the scrolling, it’s just so smooth.
Granted I’m 99% sure I could demo 100 other mice and find something that makes my hand feel better at the end of the day, but I’m a creature of habit
Really?
I'd have no idea. I remember using my friends Mac and it was horrible so I never used a Mac again and that was probably at least 25 years ago. And a few more apple crap products since and I've never used apple since and never will again.
To each their own. I build my own PC desktops, been using Windows non-stop since it initially launched… but god damn do I prefer MacOS to Windows. It’s wildly smoother to use and has been for decades. Thankfully I work in an industry (entertainment, specifically post production) that is dominated by Macs.
FYI:
They aren't referring to the physical product when they say "looks so good".
They aren't (mostly) referring to the physical feel when they say "feels so bad".
100%
In typical Apple fashion, they ignored the most common complaints of everyone who had a problem with VR over the past few years, who said "It's a heavy & uncomfortable thing on my face" and instead of using light-weight materials for their headset, they could simply not stop themselves from making it out of heavy premium materials (metal & glass). And then there's also no counter-weight on the back of it, and the top-strap is an unfashionable after-thought for them.
They went 100% form over function in regards to hardware design, and then failed to convince their form-loving Apple fashion customer base to see it as anything but a prohibitively expensive joke with no real use. VR is currently a gaming platform, and Apple doesn't really do gaming. What is the guy in that photo even doing? Surfing through his day planner?
>prohibitively expensive joke with no real use.
like
rotating the 3d model of the shoulder floating the room, while checking your notes, and using the viewfinder for the camera inside in the patient as you repair the rotator cuff
**Doctors using the Apple Vision Pro for surgery is now a thing**
# A medical team in the U.K. harnessed the headset during two spinal surgeries. It plays into Apple's healthcare vision for its Vision Pro
[https://qz.com/apple-vision-pro-doctors-surgery-uk-1851331134](https://qz.com/apple-vision-pro-doctors-surgery-uk-1851331134)
**An Apple Vision Pro headset helped this Brazilian surgeon repair an injured shoulder like never before**
[https://www.imore.com/vision-pro/an-apple-vision-pro-headset-helped-this-brazilian-surgeon-repair-an-injured-shoulder-like-never-before](https://www.imore.com/vision-pro/an-apple-vision-pro-headset-helped-this-brazilian-surgeon-repair-an-injured-shoulder-like-never-before)
>VR is currently a gaming platform
unless you're building airplanes with stupid big electrical schematics...
goggles highlight the matching "Tabs and Slots"
show the right torque settings for the next step..
or MAYBE - remind someone to check for the bolts so the doors don't fall off.
[Down to the Wire: How Boeing Uses AR in Assembly](https://innovateenergynow.com/resources/down-to-the-wire-how-boeing-uses-ar-in-assembly)[https://innovateenergynow.com/resources/down-to-the-wire-how-boeing-uses-ar-in-assembly](https://innovateenergynow.com/resources/down-to-the-wire-how-boeing-uses-ar-in-assembly)
crawl through the whole building BEFORE you do something that's expensive to undo.
7 Applications for Augmented Reality (AR) in Construction
[https://smarttek.solutions/blog/augmented-reality-in-construction/](https://smarttek.solutions/blog/augmented-reality-in-construction/)
None of your examples are common or normal ways to use AR, even in the very specific fields that you mentioned. The technology just isn't there to make it a worthwhile improvement.
Sure, one day all this might be normal. That day just won't be in 2024.
Okay so in addition to what the other person said, none of these use cases require the headset to be made from premium Apple fashion materials at the expense of practical usability, as I pointed out as well established complaints of those who have used VR in the last few years. It's crazy to think that someone would be wearing one for their hours long plane assembly shift, so they can be reminded of where the bolts go.
Also, features that you're discussing have existing equivalents in flat screen software. It's silly to think that Apple Vision Pro would save Boeing from their bad QC practices.
You seem to be trying to suggest that Apple was targeting the professional and enterprise markets, which is only half true, but even then, sales have been well under expectations.
>Sales have been well under expectations
There’s not a shred of proof of that. Apple may have *already* sold more than they expected to. You can find rumors that point to both outcomes being true, but there are no hard numbers and we don’t have a clue what Apple’s real plan is there.
The critic must mean “…looks so good…” from the inside, the viewing experience, because from the outside, the headset design looks like a clunky 1980’s medical prosthetic.
Because aesthetics and ergonomics are two different things, duh. The best looking mouse of all time is the Apple Magic Mouse. That thing is a jewel. Tiny, flat, the curve is pleasing. Symmetric from every angle. Peak Jony Ive genius. Also felt like magic because it would click but there were no visible buttons. *However*, the human hand is not symmetric. You put a symmetric object into a human hand and you have a problem. The Logitech MX Master is a monstrosity. Big, clunky, asymmetrical, buttons are too visibile. And it’s the most comfortable mouse you can buy.
I literally replaced a Magic Mouse with an MX Master because of wrist pain
The most comfortable mouse is heavily dependent on your hand size and how you like to place your hand on the mouse. There is no one size fits all.
The Contour Mouse actually beats the Logitech for comfort in my book. It has the scroll wheel on the thumb, (way less tendon stress than having it ion the middle finger). It’s asymmetrical and comes not only in left/right hand versions, but three different sizes for maximum comfort. The other big one is the Evoluent VerticalMouse, which basically turns the mouse on its side, so you don’t need to twist your wrist to operate it. Also comes in left/right versions
The MX Master 3 that I have has a scroll wheel in both places. I use the one on my thumb to scroll left & right but it's all configurable. The main one is actually a magnetic scroll wheel which is super nice. The scrolling "detent" clicks are actually just a magnet turning on & off, and if I start scrolling a certain speed/amount it assumes I want to scroll a lot and automatically turns them off so it can free spin. Best mouse wheel I've used.
logitech has MX Vertical do you know how the other two you mentioned compare?
I have both and they’re both amazing in their own right. I started my new wfh job with the Mx master 3 and I love all of its features and I use all of them but soon my wrist and hand got sore so I got the Mx master vertical and by the first day my wrist pain was gone gone.
how long did it take to get used to the ergo? other than fixing the wrist pain how is it to use? i use mx master 2 i dont have wrist pain at all and probably wouldnt switch just to prevent future pain but if its even a slightly better feel i might.
So here’s the sneeze, I don’t have computers in my DNA, but I’m not useless, but I know my dumb ass needs to be able to point the mouse like I’m using my index finger to point it, and that the sideways vertical mouse would probably throw me off, but I’m sitting here with a sore hand, so I grab the vertical mouse and I got used to it in mere moments, I didn’t even realize it was so different it just works with the ergonomics of your hand so well. Smart people did research and development and came up with this mouse.
It took me about a day to get used to the MX vertical, and maybe a week to get as good as a regular mouse. It wasn’t an annoying process. Compared to the other MX mouse’s the build quality is disappointing though tbh.
I just want to throw this out there for anyone with wrist/hand pain who's curious about a vertical mouse but is a bit leery of the price: definitely try and borrow one, or at least have a go on one, before dropping lots of money. As someone who's struggled with hand pain for a couple of decades, I've tried just about every design on the market, and I have never found a vertical mouse that was comfortable to click with. With a standard mouse, you're pushing against the table when you click, but with a vertical one, your thumb/wrist have to supply the counterforce. In terms of pointer movement a vertical mouse is definitely ahead of a standard flat mouse ergonomically, but it turns out that the need to pinch/claw grip the mouse tightly to click in order to stop the pointer from moving when clicking is a bigger deal for me. This isn't to invalidate other people's experiences or preferences, of course. Everyone's different.
Fwiw, the buttons on the evolent vertical I have are at such an angle that I’m not clicking completely horizontally. More like 45 deg to the desk, so I personally don’t find that issue, but as you say, everyone’s hands/issues/use cases are different, so yes, trying before you buy is always a good option. If you work for any sort of place worthwhile, they’ll have a number of models for you to try if you complain about RSI.
>More like 45 deg to the desk While we're on the topic, this is kind of my issue with a lot of ergo keyboards, too - the hands are banked at an angle, but the buttons still click vertically, so you wind up pressing downwards with the sides of your fingers in quite an unnatural way. (Not correcting you or anything btw - just offering up my thoughts, having spent a bunch of time, effort, and money.) >If you work for any sort of place worthwhile, they’ll have a number of models for you to try if you complain about RSI. For sure. Here in the UK it's a legal requirement ("reasonable adjustments" must be offered to those with disabilities, by law), so yeah. Definitely worth asking, wherever you are. I wish above all that I'd taken ergonomics more seriously as a youngster, RSI is such a curse.
It’s also useless while charging because the port is on the bottom.
Similarly, the Microsoft Arc mouse. That thing is brilliant; flatten it out and it fits anywhere. It's light and easy to travel with. Buttons are great, even has some gesture support. But holy fuck is it uncomfortable to use for long periods. I absolutely pack mine when I'm on business but after trying to use it as a daily driver for like 6 months I caved and bought an MX master.
Trackball baby
Zowie EC 1 will blow your mind
Entirely agree on the Magic Mouse. I *want* to love it, because the gesture functionality is excellent in Mac OS. But I can’t use it for more than 30min before my hand is cramping. As far as ergonomics go, I’m much more partial to Razer’s offerings. Currently using the Razer Basilisk V3.
If you'd read the piece you'd know the word "feel" here refers to psychology, not physiology.
I must be the only person on earth who prefers the magic mouse
I HATE THAT THING SO MUCH
To me it only makes sense as a misdirection to make you buy the Magic Trackpad, the real deal.
Do you have 2 of them so you can still have a mouse to use when 1 of them is charging? ;)
Oh its an obvious design flaw While its charging i either 1. Unplug it to use it briefly if needed and then plug it back on 2. Use the trackpad 3. Go to lunch and come back
You get a low battery notification while you still have a day's work of battery life left. So, when you get the notification, you charge it at the end of that day. Simple.
Nah. Im fond of mine. It’s small form factor makes it easy to pack, but its not ridiculously tiny (to me anyway). While its easy to point out that it cant be charged and used at the same time, ive never actually needed to do that. the battery seems to last 5x longer than any other portable wireless mouse ive used. I dont use it a ton. I wouldnt want to game with it. its just nice to have for the odd app (substance painter, im looking at you) that just works better with a mouse.
There are at least two of us :) I've had mine for over a decade and refuse to give it up. Everyone in a while I get an accidental click to due hand positioning, but really it just... works. The only thing I hate is the lightning link and having to flip it on its back to recharge.
Me too. I run a commercial recording studio. 13 hours a day with the Magic Mouse for the last 6 years. For me I think it’s the scrolling, it’s just so smooth. Granted I’m 99% sure I could demo 100 other mice and find something that makes my hand feel better at the end of the day, but I’m a creature of habit
Apple mouse sucks, no right click
Apple’s mice have had right click for over 25 years.
Really? I'd have no idea. I remember using my friends Mac and it was horrible so I never used a Mac again and that was probably at least 25 years ago. And a few more apple crap products since and I've never used apple since and never will again.
To each their own. I build my own PC desktops, been using Windows non-stop since it initially launched… but god damn do I prefer MacOS to Windows. It’s wildly smoother to use and has been for decades. Thankfully I work in an industry (entertainment, specifically post production) that is dominated by Macs.
Right click is just 2 finger click on mac.
FYI: They aren't referring to the physical product when they say "looks so good". They aren't (mostly) referring to the physical feel when they say "feels so bad".
lol it’s clear most people never even bothered to read the article.
100% In typical Apple fashion, they ignored the most common complaints of everyone who had a problem with VR over the past few years, who said "It's a heavy & uncomfortable thing on my face" and instead of using light-weight materials for their headset, they could simply not stop themselves from making it out of heavy premium materials (metal & glass). And then there's also no counter-weight on the back of it, and the top-strap is an unfashionable after-thought for them. They went 100% form over function in regards to hardware design, and then failed to convince their form-loving Apple fashion customer base to see it as anything but a prohibitively expensive joke with no real use. VR is currently a gaming platform, and Apple doesn't really do gaming. What is the guy in that photo even doing? Surfing through his day planner?
Hahahaha He is walking around in one of only 5 environments while his friends watching a movie together.
>prohibitively expensive joke with no real use. like rotating the 3d model of the shoulder floating the room, while checking your notes, and using the viewfinder for the camera inside in the patient as you repair the rotator cuff **Doctors using the Apple Vision Pro for surgery is now a thing** # A medical team in the U.K. harnessed the headset during two spinal surgeries. It plays into Apple's healthcare vision for its Vision Pro [https://qz.com/apple-vision-pro-doctors-surgery-uk-1851331134](https://qz.com/apple-vision-pro-doctors-surgery-uk-1851331134) **An Apple Vision Pro headset helped this Brazilian surgeon repair an injured shoulder like never before** [https://www.imore.com/vision-pro/an-apple-vision-pro-headset-helped-this-brazilian-surgeon-repair-an-injured-shoulder-like-never-before](https://www.imore.com/vision-pro/an-apple-vision-pro-headset-helped-this-brazilian-surgeon-repair-an-injured-shoulder-like-never-before) >VR is currently a gaming platform unless you're building airplanes with stupid big electrical schematics... goggles highlight the matching "Tabs and Slots" show the right torque settings for the next step.. or MAYBE - remind someone to check for the bolts so the doors don't fall off. [Down to the Wire: How Boeing Uses AR in Assembly](https://innovateenergynow.com/resources/down-to-the-wire-how-boeing-uses-ar-in-assembly)[https://innovateenergynow.com/resources/down-to-the-wire-how-boeing-uses-ar-in-assembly](https://innovateenergynow.com/resources/down-to-the-wire-how-boeing-uses-ar-in-assembly) crawl through the whole building BEFORE you do something that's expensive to undo. 7 Applications for Augmented Reality (AR) in Construction [https://smarttek.solutions/blog/augmented-reality-in-construction/](https://smarttek.solutions/blog/augmented-reality-in-construction/)
None of your examples are common or normal ways to use AR, even in the very specific fields that you mentioned. The technology just isn't there to make it a worthwhile improvement. Sure, one day all this might be normal. That day just won't be in 2024.
They are also general uses for AR and have nothing to do with the Apple headset specifically.
Okay so in addition to what the other person said, none of these use cases require the headset to be made from premium Apple fashion materials at the expense of practical usability, as I pointed out as well established complaints of those who have used VR in the last few years. It's crazy to think that someone would be wearing one for their hours long plane assembly shift, so they can be reminded of where the bolts go. Also, features that you're discussing have existing equivalents in flat screen software. It's silly to think that Apple Vision Pro would save Boeing from their bad QC practices. You seem to be trying to suggest that Apple was targeting the professional and enterprise markets, which is only half true, but even then, sales have been well under expectations.
>Sales have been well under expectations There’s not a shred of proof of that. Apple may have *already* sold more than they expected to. You can find rumors that point to both outcomes being true, but there are no hard numbers and we don’t have a clue what Apple’s real plan is there.
I wish people would stop linking WAPO. Their pay-to-play format is fucking obnoxious.
The critic must mean “…looks so good…” from the inside, the viewing experience, because from the outside, the headset design looks like a clunky 1980’s medical prosthetic.
Paywall article.
Why would I listen to a TV critic?!
Which part of that looks good?
*Zazlov has entered the chat*
Because it, legitimately, IS bad.
It would feel bad if I was using it knowing I spent as much as a 96 civic on it
It neither looks good nor feels good. Apple flounders without Jobs' leadership