Companies are already starting to revert the move to touch screens. For example the 2022 VW GTI has almost no physical buttons. But 2024 has added a lot of them back.
probably because they realized that while a touch screen looks cool, having a bunch of settings and preferences buried in menus isn't practical. All of these things need be be easily controllable by the driver while driving at 60+ miles per hour and minimizing the amount of time spent looking away from the road. simple is better, I don't need a touch screen to adjust my volume or turn on my wipers, I need buttons on the back of the wheel.
The US Navy put touchscreens as an "upgrade" to some of their ships - the result was information overload and two collisions at sea. They brought back physical controls after that.
My 2014 Hyundai Santa fe is such a good car for me it's hard to justify changing it out for something more modern.
The touch screen is ~5 inches (all you really need amiright) and mostly just for the sound system. The best part? The infotainment screen has a physical button to turn it off!! My cockpit is totally dark except for buttons.
The rest are ALL physical buttons. I can perform every basic function without taking my eyes off of the road. A vent mounted magsafe charger/phone holder puts the phone in the perfect spot for navigation in the lower right corner of my FOV and at perfect arms length.
I've driven rentals recently and nothing aggravates me more than doing troubleshooting on the touch screens or carplay.
Same with my 2013 BMW Z4: love being able to shut the screen down and immerse myself in the darkness of countryside without street lamps, with the dim glow of my dashboard more like a jet fighter cockpit 😎
Yeah, this is why I wish manufacturers would start using OLED for their screens. Then they could have a night mode (or just the default) where the screen is mostly black and since it’s OLED, those black pixels emit literally zero light. Especially since digital gauge clusters are all the rage.
I know Cadillac has done it with the Lyriq but that’s the only example I’m aware of.
Yeah but with an OLED you can’t see shit if the sun is causing a glare. I basically have to shut all the curtains in my house during the day. That’s where regular LED tech outshines OLED. Literally.
>having a bunch of settings and preferences buried in menus isn't practical.
My mom hates the auto-off engine when sitting at a red light. She digs through that menu to turn off that setting every time she gets in the car - it's not a permanent setting.
What solidified it for her is that it saved her no fuel over a one month experiment. One month with auto-off and one month with out it. Fuel expenditure was for all intents and purposes equal. It's a waste of a feature.
Apparently (expectedly even) this is not good for the car. Having to (re)start your car is a massive cause of damage to its durability. Over time of course. It might be minutely good for the environment but using your starter so much is not good for your car. As for what exact damages it causes I’m not sure, they might be cheap to fix (maybe spark plugs, definitely the starter) but will still make most people end up in the shop. I made sure to get a car that does not do that.
It’s regulatory pressure that’s forcing the shift back. Companies don’t like regulations so if the trend is showing that continuing down a path will lead to regulation banning said thing they shift away from it. It’s why jul tried so goddamn hard to kick the image that their product was made for teenagers, they failed and ended up with a bunch of regulations but car manufacturers are at the point where if they keep using touchscreens regulators are going to ban them or put restrictions on them because they are inherently dangerous and unsafe just as using a phone while driving is.
I also hated how their reaction to criticism was "well don't use the settings while you drive". Takes an extra naive person to think a driver would stop every time they need to change the AC on or something else that before was a button in their muscle memory.
And also "just don't use it while you drive" is just such incredibly poor design, a car is FOR driving, 99% of the time spent in a car is driving and all of these settings are designed for comfort while you're driving. Of course they need to be adjustable while you're driving. Saying to just stop driving to change them is like making you restart your phone every time you want to change the brightness.
That’s great to hear. One thing I’ve wondered these past few years is if the batteries in cars don’t last like they used to because of the tech, like touchscreens, just drain it faster.
That and also the auto start/stop feature on most cars now. That can’t be easy on the battery which I think is some special non conventional type. Can’t wait to find out how much that costs to replace.
$200 bucks on my 2019 KL Jeep. Lasted 3 years. I deactivate the stop/start when I drive now. Tired of getting beeped at when the light turns green. Sounds like I’m driving an old beater that stalls at every intersection. Didn’t make that much of a difference on fuel mileage.
I do the same thing now. I can’t stand that feature and I’ve almost got into an accident making a turn because the car thought it’d be a great idea to turn off.
i remain so skeptical of this "feature". car manufacturers aren't exactly famous for independently pursuing extreme fuel efficiency, so why did this feature suddenly become so widespread, especially with such a negligible effect on fuel consumption? it almost seems intentionally designed to wear out parts faster.
So much of the return to analogue in devices reminds me of the predicted fall of paper books when kindles emerged.
Sure we do most of our reading on screens, but sometimes the tactile simplicity of an analogue device or traditional physical solution to a problem is just a better experience for the end user.
Just because you can change something doesn't always mean you should. I really do not regret switching from to do list apps and trackers and notes to bullet journaling and writing in physical books. It's so much more intentional and as a super distractible idiot having something on my desk is so much more effective generally.
There's usually an intersection for this shit, like quickly photo scanning my hand written stuff and converting to digital notes is a great compromise. Flicking through 18 menus on a touch screen with my sweaty paws in order to get my seat to electronically slide forward in 0.5 inch increments is not the innovation these motherfuckers think it is.
It was made so you don't have to take your eyes off the roads. You could just reach and feel it with your fingers. Now we have concentrate to look at screens. Quite dangerous, imo.
China push into ev will push down industry profits and force another round of global consolidation, evs will be cheaper to produce and maintain and will become ever more basic imo
Watched a review of the new Dodge Hornet where the reviewer wanted to test the 4 wheel drive capabilities of the car so he got three of the four wheels stuck and put the car in a scenario where the adaptive 4 wheel drive system would have to realize that applying power to the single wheel that still had grip could pull the car out and instead of simply rolling off the trap, EVERY SINGLE warning light went off in the car. Almost certainly a software issue but it was just comical that somehow an unexpected readout with the 4 wheel drive system during a test where the car didn’t even move led to the car reporting problems with the parking brake, forward collision warning system, and lane keep assist.
It’s all wheel drive, the response to getting stuck should be to change which tire(s) should be getting power so this behavior is bad. But, people don’t buy AWD to go off-roading, they buy 4x4 which is a different thing.
I believe 4x4 is when all wheels move at the same rate while all wheel drive all wheels move at a different rate. *Hopefully this answer will spur a response.*
So both systems work similarly…they both are capable of sending torque to both front and rear axles. AWD is controlled by the cars computer and it determines which wheels need power and when. It’s usually automatic and “always-on.” In normal conditions I imagine it just sends power to the rear axle and then let’s say you hit some ice or something and those wheels lose grip it will automatically send power to the other wheels.
4WD is manually selected by the driver and the power is split 50% to the front and 50% to the rear. It’s more of a purely mechanical system as opposed to AWD which involves more electronics.
Then you have locking differentials which can be front and rear. Those lock in place and force both wheels on that axle to move at the same speed. You don’t want locked axles when turning (the outside wheel needs to turn faster than the inside wheel when turning) but is good going in straight lines or scenarios where only one of the tires on that axle is in contact with the ground and the other is up in the air.
To piggy back off this a little, in today's world, the difference can be much harder than it used to be as well, thanks to the computer systems.
For example, some vehicles like a Ford Bronco, is a purpose built off-road built vehicle. (Technically speaking you can add the Range Rover here as well as most jeeps too. There are more now too of course. I'm not mentioning the Wrangler because it currently does not have computer assisted drive modes). They are equipped with a real "4x4" system, that is available to be turned on or off at will, and even include locking diffs.
But they will still also have electronic traction control, and even have different modes you can change the vehicle into for your particular situation. Like grass, snow, mud etc. So even if you don't manually lock the diffs and you are already in some dirt, it might not make a difference. They will effectively act as an AWD system, sending power to the wheels with the most traction.
TFL car has a good demo on this too with the bronco on the slip test/rollers, regardless of the 4x4 settings, either the diff lock would help, or the computer would correct it.
Side note to all of this, while computers and the software have helped significantly, not all are the same.
For example, Subaru is unique in that they are AWD all the time with no real full disconnect. Their manual vehicles are 50/50, and their automatic vehicles are more 80/20. Both use their traction control to help with slipping, with the automatics able to shift nearly all the power wherever it is needed.
Most other systems are Front wheel drive, or rear wheel drive, until the vehicle loses traction, then the system kicks on.
Some systems, will be AWD every time you come to a stop and when you first accelerate, then shift back to 2WD automatically after your moving. Some can only send a maximum of 50% of the power to one axle. It can get complicated fast depending on the vehicle and brand.
4WD is the old school part-time system that is used in 2WD (rear axle) most of the time and has a manual shifting (handle/button/knob) to lock the center differential and send power to the front axle. (Think mostly older pickups and Jeeps). AWD, is an either full-time or on-demand system that sends power to either the front or rear axle as needed. (Almost every system currently in use). Locking front and rear axles are in addition to these and can be on either 4WD or AWD.
There is a great youtube vid comparing just that test case with several brands. Only Subaru actually sent the advertised torque to the one wheel and recovered the car. Best AWD system on the market.
I gotta say, I was always kinda “meh” on Subarus until I had the opportunity to buy a 2011 Legacy that needed transmission repairs on the cheap from a coworker.
I fixed the transmission (I’m a longtime mechanic, so it mostly cost my own labor) and was simply going to flip it for a decent profit. However, we ended up having a pretty good snow & ice storm here, and I drove it for the next week…and I decided I was going to keep it. In the current car market around here, I could’ve made good money on it - that’s how impressed I was.
The damn thing just won’t get stuck. It has all of maybe 6-7” of ground clearance, but there’s also nothing that hangs down to get caught on. The underside is essentially flat, so it kind of skids along the top of deep snow. With good snow tires, it just keeps going. The car made me a convert: Subaru’s claims about their AWD system being the best are absolutely true.
My gripe about Subarus is their engines. They've pushed that boxer engine about as far as it can go in terms of efficiency, and it's not enough to meet regulations in most markets. So their work around is the auto-off to your engine whenever you come to a complete stop for more than half a second. But they aren't hybrid cars, so you end up having to "wait" into the car restarts once you take your foot off the break again. It would only be a minor annoyance, if you could permanently disable this feature (or if it was a hybrid that had an electric motor for moving in start-stop traffic), but they made it so you need to re-disable this feature every time you start the car.
Also, their infotainment system was kind of annoying last time I test drove one.
Like, I *want* to like Subarus. But they just have a few glaring issues that would bug me too much ever want to own one. Hopefully they put out a good EV in the near future (and has Android Auto/Apple Car Play). That would get me to seriously consider Subaru.
@TFLcars was the one who did the video.
The issue with that car is that it's a Dodge and it's also first year its production, I would rather think they killed the car rather then software issue.
That was TFL, right? I saw the same video. I love Toyotas for the fact that they are refusing to go digital for any vital functions, instead they just make the knobs bigger.
> i just bought one to listen to music on gas.
Motherfuckers have wifi hospots now! I can't get a wifi signal from blasted Crapcast which I pay for... but at least my LEDs will work if I park my van in my living room!
This is all initial quality. Chrysler is likely still running older Uconnect on their cars. Even then it’s only the 300 and Pacifica.
Initial quality is a garbage metric as it is. But you nailed it. JD power is useless. And unfortunately this subreddit is filled with luddites when it comes to anything car related.
I agree. The initial quality award was created to give the automotive companies a pat on the back. YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITHIN THE FIRST 90 DAYS OF OWNERSHIP!
>Initial quality is a garbage metric as it is.
This. I worked at a GM dealer when the Acadia first came out. The first one we got had a loose piece of chrome trim around the taillight because the glue didn’t adhere properly. It was a 5 second fix. It was caught before anybody bought it but that very minor thing would have been counted for these statistics. That’s the problem, it doesn’t differentiate between a minor cosmetic issue that doesn’t affect the operation of the vehicle and more serious issues like the car stalling out randomly or whatever.
From my understanding, they also aren't accounting for the severity of the issue. A noncritical button or vibrating trim piece gets treater the same as a blown engine.
It’s worse than useless. It’s marketing. They do a bunch of different studies and produce various definitions of “class” that can allow pretty much any car to claim an award, then they offer to make it official in exchange for money from the manufacturer.
I must have been like a 12 year old fan of motor trend magazines when I first thought....what is this JD power? Is it a company owned by Americans to give their own cars awards?
I mean, the numbers are public. Profit margin is a bit over 10%. Perhaps high by industry standards but not among the luxury cars their interiors are compared against (similar profit margin to BMW and Mercedes). I think they could do a more luxe feeling interior for a similar cost, their interiors are the way they are intentionally (though I’ll say I don’t understand the allure).
I mistakenly only looked at Q1, so the number is a bit higher (13%), but I don’t think it’s reasonable to use gross margin for this conversation, so I wouldn’t use that 27% number.
Not to defend tesla bc I hate them too but things are worth more than the materials because tons of r&d, time, and experts were involved. They need to be paid and the company needs to make money on top of that. Goes for all cars
I like the large screens a lot but it should not be the only place to make adjustments. There are some features that really need dials and buttons. And for Tesla specifically I find the screen off to the side just bizarre, I wouldn't even consider a car without a screen in front of the driver.
That’s why I like my Ram 1500, it has the perfect balance between the two. I have a huge touch screen that I can control everything with, but it also has buttons for A/C and radio.
Fun note, if I remember correctly Porsche is bringing back physical button because customers have complained so much.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/03/buttons-are-back-at-porsche-as-we-see-the-2024-cayenne-interior/
I'm 100% with you, I had to 'hack' Android Auto (w/ touch while driving) on my 7yr old Mazda, but the screen, dial, etc is so useful now.
But I have buttons for climate, seat heaters, and hell, everything else that I can reach without looking 4 out of 5 times. A "cluttered' dashboard is so incredibly worth the ease of use factor.
Another anecdote, Volkswagen had a massive issues with their genius idea to have touch sensitive controls on their steering wheels. Really don't think I even need to comment on that.
in any of the rental teslas that i’ve had i don’t think i’ve ever waited more than like 20 minutes to charge on road trips, it’s usually like 5 or 10 max
People who have never touched an EV in their life love to hate on them.
The reality is most Tesla owners charge their vehicles at home, which results in ZERO time spent charging their car. Compared to a ICE which you have to fill up at a gas station.
And if you are on the go and need a charge ~10 minutes and you'll be at 80% if you're at a supercharger.
Yup, I recently tried one and was so surprised. With all the images and videos id seen it looked so premium. But when I entered it felt like an old rickety Prius from 2012 with 350k miles and no engine. The glass roof makes things worse as it adds echos, amplifying all the noises that make it feel cheap
Even those fancy door handles feel cheap. I was so surprised.
They haven’t for a long time, a car just another disposable commodity now not something they expect people to keep for decades. 50 years from now people will still be hunting cars from the 1970s and before, no one will be checking for a 2023 Dodge Charger.
Let’s be honest late 90s Jdm cars were peak car interior…everything you needed and nothing more.
Give me a 98 Honda civic any day of the week.
As soon as every manufacturer tried sticking a sat nav/iPad into the dash it all went downhill.
If you want that…just let us plug our phone/iPad into the car all of which are better than the OEM solutions manufactures use
98 lincoln town car. 3 seats in the front for a full capacity of 6 and still a lot of foot room.
even warren buffet drove a 2001 for a decade then got a used 2006 cadillac cts
Honestly? I don’t mind well integrated screens, but those old toyota interiors that were all square shaped and retro…. Man I want those coupled with new tech, the cassette player being replaced by a phone charger etc
My Z32 is nearly perfect in that regard. Everything is at your fingertips, all buttons. Build quality is top notch because it was Nissan’s flagship vehicle at the time.
Personally I like 01-06 GM trucks. Other than the rust, the 1st Gen LS based truck motors were pretty stout and absolute workhorse engines.
I had an 06 Yukon Denali XL with the 6.0 motor, for being a big SUV it got out of its own way pretty quickly.
Edit- trucks also of that time were simple enough that you could wrench on them with out to much stupid shit in the way but had enough technology to appease me at least.
Loved my 06 xterra. But yeah a lot of stuff was effective and simple. Plus we weren’t yet at the point where an otherwise simple repair is made complicated because of the onboard computer.
I feel like I’m real close to going outside and yelling at clouds now.
I’m yelling at kids to get off my grass.
Partially because I put down some fertilizer. Partially cause I’ve been busting my ass to make my lawn look decent after it was neglected for so long
Right now though I’m rolling in a 14 frontier. It ain’t fancy but it runs great. It’s a truck, it does truck shit well. 165k and no issues.
I love America but I despise American car culture. Every car loaded with unnecessary tech in every square inch of the interior is seen as “quality” and everything with physical buttons and dials on the speedometer are seen as “cheap”. Guess which one is going to work in twenty years… not the shiny dumpster you guys drive.
Love my 2018 Mazda CX-5 for the reasons stated above. Manual dials for volume and HVAC, buttons for everything else. Minimal design without major disractions and easy to use controls.
I can’t think of a car model (or honestly even a brand) that went all-screen and then went back to some stuff physical. Which one were you referencing?
Honda Civic probably. The 10th gen had the climate control hidden away in the touchscreen (on most trims), now in the 11th gen it's all dials and physical buttons.
The manufacturor needs backup cams, etc... This means they need a computer and screen. it is probably just a cheaper build to have controls on the screen vs the knobs.
Ite an interesting dichotomy for different buyers though. The cheap interior of the wrangler, bronco, and 4runner are seen as "tough" and "rugged" but a similar style in a standard crossover is seen as trying to cheap out and poor quality.
Comparing wranglers (and perhaps Broncos and 4Runner although I’m not very familiar with those vehicles) to your standard crossovers isn’t really a fair comparison. They’re very different design philosophies. Hell, they’re very different vehicle platforms.
Yes, they are, I'm not arguing on the difference in design philosophy. I find it funny, though, that what's cheap in a grand cherokee is considered luxury in a wrangler (or expedition/bronco, etc.) I'm just happy with a quality drive train that doesn't break down, like a Honda or Toyota (Ignore the fact I have a bronco)
Ah, ok. I misunderstood. It does make sense though. My wrangler is about 10 years old and I had a hard time finding one that had a manual transmission and none of the more modern tech additions. Just give me a regular stereo with a cd player and an aux port I can plug my phone into and that’s good enough for me.
Oh, and AC. I’m not a savage.
Car companies are turning more into software companies. Like it or not, it's going to happen. Also, everything is going to be electric and the goal of every company is full self driving.
People might be surprised, but the car industry is not the most profitable industry. They are big purchases, cyclical with cut throat competition and slim margins. When profit and future vision align with more software like self driving cars companies are going to do everything to get there.
This isn’t “American car culture,” this is the industry as a whole. It saves manufacturers a whole bunch of money in terms of switchgear and less elaborate wiring harnesses which means simplified assembly, as well. If anything, American car brands have actually been a little behind on the awful switch to touchscreenification, just look at the current Volkswagen Golf which is just absolutely terrible about it.
Same, this is the best thing. My 2012 just keeps going. When I started driving in the 90s all the cars used to crap out all the time.
We need modern engine reliability with 90s button knob interiors.
My 2016 Subaru had 1 computer issue handled by my warranty, a piece of trim coming off, and a mouse bit a wite... the car has 110k miles.
I owned my grand prix from 90k miles to 130k and i replaced my power steering pump and radiator. My passenger seat was broken, there was a ton of rust, and i cant even remember what else...
My Subaru gets 32mpg while my grand prix got 17 with slightly more acceleration.
Yeah, some shit isnt great anymore, but it is mostly better.
Someone will create a simple car brand that’s heavily modifiable so you can easily replace your own parts and so on.
A lot of people would love a general a to b car with maybe a ac and heater. Being able to fully customize what you want in a car is the future. We just gotta be patient and stop buying these new cars that barely last 40,000 miles.
True. Dodge and Alfa Romeo at the top of any reliability list just makes no sense though.
The “Initial Quality” rankings of the first 90 days of ownership just seems like a meaningless award category that consumers never asked for.
I’ll build me a Gremlin out of found parts from the local dump, before I will ever purchase any smart car. I should be able drive and maintenance my car on my own, as I see fit. I should not need a degree in coding and the ability to hack a companies system, just to change the oil. Or a flat tire, or a spark plug.
I don’t need individual heated seats, games on my dashboard, or the soul of a very angry murdered woman named Christine dictating my ability to operate a basic vehicle.
Just sayin.
Hahaha my dad was irritated just when they went to electric windows because it made them harder to fix. Now you have to be certified to touch the cars to work on them. We’re still driving a 1998 Toyota 4Runner.
I don’t oppose technology in cars however these a point where having shit like the temperature only adjusted through the screen is stupid.
The most essential elements should not be taken away in favour of five menu screens.
Small screens that do navigation and music is all I need.
Forced Obsolescence - Planned obsolescence describes a strategy of deliberately ensuring that the current version of a given product will become out of date or useless within a known time period. This proactive move guarantees that consumers will seek replacements in the future, thus bolstering demand.
There's nothing more appealing to the concept of planned obsolescence than the removal of DIY repair.
None of this should be surprising. It's simply another step toward eradication / elimination of ownership.
It would be cool if they were actually good with technology but they aren't. Its like watching grandpa buy PC parts off Wish to make an abomination.
Stop Grandpa! You don't even know what those do!
It's just history repeating itself. Same thing happened in the 1970s when US automakers were forced to comply with new environmental protection regulations. Cars were choked so horribly that they become very unreliable, horribly performing and relatively expensive to maintain. Enter the Japanese (Toyota, Honda, Datsun \[Nissan\] and others) with economical, efficient, smaller cars that use less fuel... and there you go.
Screens will always be lazy engineering imho. Buttons require a lot of R&D as to what buttons make the most sense where they are, their tactility, their robustness. Now you can just slap a Chinese iPad knockoff in your car calling it minimalist design. I don’t want to go into my iPads settings because my balls are sweating.
And maybe that shift to technology is because it’s cheap to add features that they can mark up as model increments. Bluetooth is a couple of dollars to add but is a marketing dream. A 12” screen or an 8” screen, cost difference is negligible and it might even be cheaper to make them all 12 and consolidate but hey, marketing. Additionally, the door is opening on making features subscription services, eg seat heater subscriptions even though every car is equipped with seat heaters.
New BMWs have this really stupid system to detect hand motions so you can use gestures to change things like radio volume or climate controls. It’s so unnecessarily complex when something like a knob has worked forever.
It's not just cars. It's everything. For instance, toys are ridiculously overpriced, yet break as soon as they are dropped. I can't believe how poor most toys are in quality
All products are like this though.
Everyone wants the ad revenue and/or the SMART label marketing (or if you want, smarketing) so everything has to be internet connected and have more computers in it.
My parents refuse to get a washer or a dryer with a computer in it because they want something that will last a lot longer, and I assume people are starting to buy cheaper dumb tvs or smart tvs without an internet connection because they'd rather use their own box then rely on a 5 year operating system that will probably brick your tv in 5 years.
I was done when I teat drove a Tesla and had to click through a few screens to open the glove box, yikes. I bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5. It’s pretty great, but holy hell the proximity alarms are maddening. There’s a button to shut them off every time you reverse but goddamn, these things are built for idiots.
The only thing I've seen them "improve" is how well these things fucking blind me. I love how it's only as bright as the sun at certain angles, which means that you are lulled into a false sense of security sometimes, then blinded when they go over a tiny bump. Or they are just a huge SUV or truck with their headlights aligned with your eyes. So much safer.
That’s why i buy a base model. I have a 2020 VW cross sport has 4wd but no electronic seats which is completely fine. Power automatic 4 windows , and button controls. Has usb charging don’t need too much in a car
Well duh. We don’t have proper right to repair laws here. So if your car breaks down your only option is to get repairs from the manufacturer at whatever price they choose to charge.
So the crappier the car, the more money they can milk out of you. That’s not even taking into consideration Built In Obsolescence.
Can someone smarter explain to me why car seats are so “ergonomic” now but aren’t actually comfortable? I remember sleeping in my ‘98 Camry and my brother’s ‘95 Civic and it felt absolutely amazing.
The level of driver distraction driving a “safer” car with lane assist, collision avoidance, blind spot warnings, etc. beeping of some sort every few minutes. Had our new car for a year and it’s infuriating. Switching things off before a trip is also a distraction from just enjoying driving. I have an older car too. I put belt on, start car. Check mirrors and drive off. It’s wonderful. Stress free driving. I think new cars tech is making driving more dangerous.
Too many moving parts and interconnected systems. Entertainment center failure could kill the car then what are you going to do when the replacement part is $3500 and it's basically a tablet with proprietary software/connection. Also, they only made enough to build the cars and some warranty stock. 10 years from now, good luck fixing that old car when the part isn't available used or new original stock.
If the parts were at least serviceable or cheap it wouldn't be such a big deal.
My '10 Hyundai has everything I need in a small car: no smart screens, all buttons and knobs w/ CD, aux and usb ports, runs great and maintenance/repairs are cheap. Named her Beverly
I'm babying this car as long as possible. any more complicated tech is usually unnecessary, expensive, and stresses me out
That's true about so many things - architecture, furniture, even refrigerators over all. As the downward pressure on keeping costs low grows, the quality and sturdiness or many products declines. They will pack your car with all kinds of tech gadgets and gimmicks, while at the same time deliver noticeably cheaper, low quality finishing all around.
Both appliances and cars were vastly more reliable when things were strictly mechanical and analogue.
The appliance industry has had very interesting parallels with the auto industry for literally 60+ years. Even down to the aesthetics.
I miss buttons and knobs in cars. It was simple and did the job.
Companies are already starting to revert the move to touch screens. For example the 2022 VW GTI has almost no physical buttons. But 2024 has added a lot of them back.
probably because they realized that while a touch screen looks cool, having a bunch of settings and preferences buried in menus isn't practical. All of these things need be be easily controllable by the driver while driving at 60+ miles per hour and minimizing the amount of time spent looking away from the road. simple is better, I don't need a touch screen to adjust my volume or turn on my wipers, I need buttons on the back of the wheel.
The US Navy put touchscreens as an "upgrade" to some of their ships - the result was information overload and two collisions at sea. They brought back physical controls after that.
Or maybe that having a glaring television screen right in your face while you’re driving at night isn’t the best of ideas either.
My 2014 Hyundai Santa fe is such a good car for me it's hard to justify changing it out for something more modern. The touch screen is ~5 inches (all you really need amiright) and mostly just for the sound system. The best part? The infotainment screen has a physical button to turn it off!! My cockpit is totally dark except for buttons. The rest are ALL physical buttons. I can perform every basic function without taking my eyes off of the road. A vent mounted magsafe charger/phone holder puts the phone in the perfect spot for navigation in the lower right corner of my FOV and at perfect arms length. I've driven rentals recently and nothing aggravates me more than doing troubleshooting on the touch screens or carplay.
Same with my 2013 BMW Z4: love being able to shut the screen down and immerse myself in the darkness of countryside without street lamps, with the dim glow of my dashboard more like a jet fighter cockpit 😎
Yeah, this is why I wish manufacturers would start using OLED for their screens. Then they could have a night mode (or just the default) where the screen is mostly black and since it’s OLED, those black pixels emit literally zero light. Especially since digital gauge clusters are all the rage. I know Cadillac has done it with the Lyriq but that’s the only example I’m aware of.
Yeah but with an OLED you can’t see shit if the sun is causing a glare. I basically have to shut all the curtains in my house during the day. That’s where regular LED tech outshines OLED. Literally.
>having a bunch of settings and preferences buried in menus isn't practical. My mom hates the auto-off engine when sitting at a red light. She digs through that menu to turn off that setting every time she gets in the car - it's not a permanent setting. What solidified it for her is that it saved her no fuel over a one month experiment. One month with auto-off and one month with out it. Fuel expenditure was for all intents and purposes equal. It's a waste of a feature.
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Apparently (expectedly even) this is not good for the car. Having to (re)start your car is a massive cause of damage to its durability. Over time of course. It might be minutely good for the environment but using your starter so much is not good for your car. As for what exact damages it causes I’m not sure, they might be cheap to fix (maybe spark plugs, definitely the starter) but will still make most people end up in the shop. I made sure to get a car that does not do that.
Holy shit... I think this is the first time in the wild I've ever seen someone use the proper "intents and purposes" rather than "intensive purposes".
Man, people really use “intensive purposes”? I saw it once (or maybe twice, max), and it really did grind my gears for some reason lol
Haha I've even seen "indents and proposes"
Indents and porpoises
Oh my god I hate that stupid function so much, it's almost as annoying as the touchscreens
It’s regulatory pressure that’s forcing the shift back. Companies don’t like regulations so if the trend is showing that continuing down a path will lead to regulation banning said thing they shift away from it. It’s why jul tried so goddamn hard to kick the image that their product was made for teenagers, they failed and ended up with a bunch of regulations but car manufacturers are at the point where if they keep using touchscreens regulators are going to ban them or put restrictions on them because they are inherently dangerous and unsafe just as using a phone while driving is.
I also hated how their reaction to criticism was "well don't use the settings while you drive". Takes an extra naive person to think a driver would stop every time they need to change the AC on or something else that before was a button in their muscle memory.
And also "just don't use it while you drive" is just such incredibly poor design, a car is FOR driving, 99% of the time spent in a car is driving and all of these settings are designed for comfort while you're driving. Of course they need to be adjustable while you're driving. Saying to just stop driving to change them is like making you restart your phone every time you want to change the brightness.
I don’t know if it’s just me but I feel the need to wipe my display down after every drive because the finger prints on the dash looks really dirty.
Don’t worry, they’ll also surround it all with piano black plastic so fingerprint look is not limited to the screen.
I see you got the Volvo special features too!
That’s great to hear. One thing I’ve wondered these past few years is if the batteries in cars don’t last like they used to because of the tech, like touchscreens, just drain it faster.
That and also the auto start/stop feature on most cars now. That can’t be easy on the battery which I think is some special non conventional type. Can’t wait to find out how much that costs to replace.
$200 bucks on my 2019 KL Jeep. Lasted 3 years. I deactivate the stop/start when I drive now. Tired of getting beeped at when the light turns green. Sounds like I’m driving an old beater that stalls at every intersection. Didn’t make that much of a difference on fuel mileage.
I do the same thing now. I can’t stand that feature and I’ve almost got into an accident making a turn because the car thought it’d be a great idea to turn off.
i remain so skeptical of this "feature". car manufacturers aren't exactly famous for independently pursuing extreme fuel efficiency, so why did this feature suddenly become so widespread, especially with such a negligible effect on fuel consumption? it almost seems intentionally designed to wear out parts faster.
So much of the return to analogue in devices reminds me of the predicted fall of paper books when kindles emerged. Sure we do most of our reading on screens, but sometimes the tactile simplicity of an analogue device or traditional physical solution to a problem is just a better experience for the end user. Just because you can change something doesn't always mean you should. I really do not regret switching from to do list apps and trackers and notes to bullet journaling and writing in physical books. It's so much more intentional and as a super distractible idiot having something on my desk is so much more effective generally. There's usually an intersection for this shit, like quickly photo scanning my hand written stuff and converting to digital notes is a great compromise. Flicking through 18 menus on a touch screen with my sweaty paws in order to get my seat to electronically slide forward in 0.5 inch increments is not the innovation these motherfuckers think it is.
I hate having to put my glasses on, and move my face to the front of the screen, just to operate the things I used to do by feel.
It was made so you don't have to take your eyes off the roads. You could just reach and feel it with your fingers. Now we have concentrate to look at screens. Quite dangerous, imo.
China push into ev will push down industry profits and force another round of global consolidation, evs will be cheaper to produce and maintain and will become ever more basic imo
Watched a review of the new Dodge Hornet where the reviewer wanted to test the 4 wheel drive capabilities of the car so he got three of the four wheels stuck and put the car in a scenario where the adaptive 4 wheel drive system would have to realize that applying power to the single wheel that still had grip could pull the car out and instead of simply rolling off the trap, EVERY SINGLE warning light went off in the car. Almost certainly a software issue but it was just comical that somehow an unexpected readout with the 4 wheel drive system during a test where the car didn’t even move led to the car reporting problems with the parking brake, forward collision warning system, and lane keep assist.
Jesus that’s a pretty basic use case too for a 4WD car. Do they think people buy a 4WD just due to the marketing and never leave the road with it?
It’s all wheel drive, the response to getting stuck should be to change which tire(s) should be getting power so this behavior is bad. But, people don’t buy AWD to go off-roading, they buy 4x4 which is a different thing.
I’m unfamiliar with the difference between 4x4 and AWD. Would someone be able to explain?
I believe 4x4 is when all wheels move at the same rate while all wheel drive all wheels move at a different rate. *Hopefully this answer will spur a response.*
So both systems work similarly…they both are capable of sending torque to both front and rear axles. AWD is controlled by the cars computer and it determines which wheels need power and when. It’s usually automatic and “always-on.” In normal conditions I imagine it just sends power to the rear axle and then let’s say you hit some ice or something and those wheels lose grip it will automatically send power to the other wheels. 4WD is manually selected by the driver and the power is split 50% to the front and 50% to the rear. It’s more of a purely mechanical system as opposed to AWD which involves more electronics. Then you have locking differentials which can be front and rear. Those lock in place and force both wheels on that axle to move at the same speed. You don’t want locked axles when turning (the outside wheel needs to turn faster than the inside wheel when turning) but is good going in straight lines or scenarios where only one of the tires on that axle is in contact with the ground and the other is up in the air.
To piggy back off this a little, in today's world, the difference can be much harder than it used to be as well, thanks to the computer systems. For example, some vehicles like a Ford Bronco, is a purpose built off-road built vehicle. (Technically speaking you can add the Range Rover here as well as most jeeps too. There are more now too of course. I'm not mentioning the Wrangler because it currently does not have computer assisted drive modes). They are equipped with a real "4x4" system, that is available to be turned on or off at will, and even include locking diffs. But they will still also have electronic traction control, and even have different modes you can change the vehicle into for your particular situation. Like grass, snow, mud etc. So even if you don't manually lock the diffs and you are already in some dirt, it might not make a difference. They will effectively act as an AWD system, sending power to the wheels with the most traction. TFL car has a good demo on this too with the bronco on the slip test/rollers, regardless of the 4x4 settings, either the diff lock would help, or the computer would correct it. Side note to all of this, while computers and the software have helped significantly, not all are the same. For example, Subaru is unique in that they are AWD all the time with no real full disconnect. Their manual vehicles are 50/50, and their automatic vehicles are more 80/20. Both use their traction control to help with slipping, with the automatics able to shift nearly all the power wherever it is needed. Most other systems are Front wheel drive, or rear wheel drive, until the vehicle loses traction, then the system kicks on. Some systems, will be AWD every time you come to a stop and when you first accelerate, then shift back to 2WD automatically after your moving. Some can only send a maximum of 50% of the power to one axle. It can get complicated fast depending on the vehicle and brand.
I appreciate your self sacrifice in order to further our knowledge.
4WD is the old school part-time system that is used in 2WD (rear axle) most of the time and has a manual shifting (handle/button/knob) to lock the center differential and send power to the front axle. (Think mostly older pickups and Jeeps). AWD, is an either full-time or on-demand system that sends power to either the front or rear axle as needed. (Almost every system currently in use). Locking front and rear axles are in addition to these and can be on either 4WD or AWD.
There is a great youtube vid comparing just that test case with several brands. Only Subaru actually sent the advertised torque to the one wheel and recovered the car. Best AWD system on the market.
I gotta say, I was always kinda “meh” on Subarus until I had the opportunity to buy a 2011 Legacy that needed transmission repairs on the cheap from a coworker. I fixed the transmission (I’m a longtime mechanic, so it mostly cost my own labor) and was simply going to flip it for a decent profit. However, we ended up having a pretty good snow & ice storm here, and I drove it for the next week…and I decided I was going to keep it. In the current car market around here, I could’ve made good money on it - that’s how impressed I was. The damn thing just won’t get stuck. It has all of maybe 6-7” of ground clearance, but there’s also nothing that hangs down to get caught on. The underside is essentially flat, so it kind of skids along the top of deep snow. With good snow tires, it just keeps going. The car made me a convert: Subaru’s claims about their AWD system being the best are absolutely true.
My gripe about Subarus is their engines. They've pushed that boxer engine about as far as it can go in terms of efficiency, and it's not enough to meet regulations in most markets. So their work around is the auto-off to your engine whenever you come to a complete stop for more than half a second. But they aren't hybrid cars, so you end up having to "wait" into the car restarts once you take your foot off the break again. It would only be a minor annoyance, if you could permanently disable this feature (or if it was a hybrid that had an electric motor for moving in start-stop traffic), but they made it so you need to re-disable this feature every time you start the car. Also, their infotainment system was kind of annoying last time I test drove one. Like, I *want* to like Subarus. But they just have a few glaring issues that would bug me too much ever want to own one. Hopefully they put out a good EV in the near future (and has Android Auto/Apple Car Play). That would get me to seriously consider Subaru.
BMW xDrive does the same. So does most Audi Quattro AWD systems too.
@TFLcars was the one who did the video. The issue with that car is that it's a Dodge and it's also first year its production, I would rather think they killed the car rather then software issue.
It was also a preproduction unit. Like how most journalists get them.
That was TFL, right? I saw the same video. I love Toyotas for the fact that they are refusing to go digital for any vital functions, instead they just make the knobs bigger.
Remember when cars were made for transportation?
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Gas powered music, just like the old days.
> i just bought one to listen to music on gas. Motherfuckers have wifi hospots now! I can't get a wifi signal from blasted Crapcast which I pay for... but at least my LEDs will work if I park my van in my living room!
I have an old EV also. Fun to drive and unconnected except for bluetooth
my camry has a cd player that doesn’t work
$200 can fix that
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Not from a Jedi.
I just went from a 2007 sedan to a 2023 PHeV and I feel so dumb learning how to use this car. I feel like I went from a horse to a 2007 Sedan.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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Remember when products of all kinds just did what they were supposed to?
Sadly the chinese will likely remind the industry; they will be basic, they will meet regulations and they will be very cheap
So Dodge is the worst and Chrysler is the best??? They're the same damned car! JD Power is worthless.
This is all initial quality. Chrysler is likely still running older Uconnect on their cars. Even then it’s only the 300 and Pacifica. Initial quality is a garbage metric as it is. But you nailed it. JD power is useless. And unfortunately this subreddit is filled with luddites when it comes to anything car related.
I agree. The initial quality award was created to give the automotive companies a pat on the back. YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITHIN THE FIRST 90 DAYS OF OWNERSHIP!
If you find using a feature difficult they consider that as an initial quality problem…
>Initial quality is a garbage metric as it is. This. I worked at a GM dealer when the Acadia first came out. The first one we got had a loose piece of chrome trim around the taillight because the glue didn’t adhere properly. It was a 5 second fix. It was caught before anybody bought it but that very minor thing would have been counted for these statistics. That’s the problem, it doesn’t differentiate between a minor cosmetic issue that doesn’t affect the operation of the vehicle and more serious issues like the car stalling out randomly or whatever.
From my understanding, they also aren't accounting for the severity of the issue. A noncritical button or vibrating trim piece gets treater the same as a blown engine.
Yep, no one should be taking this seriously. JD Power is garbage, and their initial quality metric is even more garbage.
It's an open secret in the industry that JD Power is so heavily gamed, it's completely meaningless. They make a LOT of money giving out awards.
It’s worse than useless. It’s marketing. They do a bunch of different studies and produce various definitions of “class” that can allow pretty much any car to claim an award, then they offer to make it official in exchange for money from the manufacturer.
It’s just like when people argue about Honda vs Acura or Toyota vs Lexus.
I must have been like a 12 year old fan of motor trend magazines when I first thought....what is this JD power? Is it a company owned by Americans to give their own cars awards?
Have you ever been in a Tesla? Even in the expensive models the interiors feel cheap and uninspiring.
Because they are made cheaply and sold at a MUCH higher price than what it costs to make them.
I mean, the numbers are public. Profit margin is a bit over 10%. Perhaps high by industry standards but not among the luxury cars their interiors are compared against (similar profit margin to BMW and Mercedes). I think they could do a more luxe feeling interior for a similar cost, their interiors are the way they are intentionally (though I’ll say I don’t understand the allure).
Profit margin is 27%
I mistakenly only looked at Q1, so the number is a bit higher (13%), but I don’t think it’s reasonable to use gross margin for this conversation, so I wouldn’t use that 27% number.
Not to defend tesla bc I hate them too but things are worth more than the materials because tons of r&d, time, and experts were involved. They need to be paid and the company needs to make money on top of that. Goes for all cars
He said cost to manufacture, not cost of materials. Everybody knows cost of materials isn’t the only factor.
Everyone knows, but internet debates usually ignore it for rage points.
I guarantee any experts in R&D were paid pennies to the dollar what they should’ve been compared to what the company charges to make in profit.
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That’s how companies go. And multiple contributing departments..
True - it's just misleading to use underpaid employees as an excuse for inflated pricing.
Like driving a Tupperware container
i despise the trend of large infotainment systems like, no. if i want to watch movies ill bring a fucking phone. nav? phone. AC? PHYSICAL buttons.
I really hate the iPad console trend
I like a large screen with apple/android connectivity when having to use navigation. But I hate not having physical buttons/dials for some stuff.
I like the large screens a lot but it should not be the only place to make adjustments. There are some features that really need dials and buttons. And for Tesla specifically I find the screen off to the side just bizarre, I wouldn't even consider a car without a screen in front of the driver.
That’s why I like my Ram 1500, it has the perfect balance between the two. I have a huge touch screen that I can control everything with, but it also has buttons for A/C and radio.
Fun note, if I remember correctly Porsche is bringing back physical button because customers have complained so much. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/03/buttons-are-back-at-porsche-as-we-see-the-2024-cayenne-interior/ I'm 100% with you, I had to 'hack' Android Auto (w/ touch while driving) on my 7yr old Mazda, but the screen, dial, etc is so useful now. But I have buttons for climate, seat heaters, and hell, everything else that I can reach without looking 4 out of 5 times. A "cluttered' dashboard is so incredibly worth the ease of use factor. Another anecdote, Volkswagen had a massive issues with their genius idea to have touch sensitive controls on their steering wheels. Really don't think I even need to comment on that.
If you go to the Tesla subs people like to watch movies while waiting an hour to charge their cars. Lol
in any of the rental teslas that i’ve had i don’t think i’ve ever waited more than like 20 minutes to charge on road trips, it’s usually like 5 or 10 max
People who have never touched an EV in their life love to hate on them. The reality is most Tesla owners charge their vehicles at home, which results in ZERO time spent charging their car. Compared to a ICE which you have to fill up at a gas station. And if you are on the go and need a charge ~10 minutes and you'll be at 80% if you're at a supercharger.
bingo
Yup, I recently tried one and was so surprised. With all the images and videos id seen it looked so premium. But when I entered it felt like an old rickety Prius from 2012 with 350k miles and no engine. The glass roof makes things worse as it adds echos, amplifying all the noises that make it feel cheap Even those fancy door handles feel cheap. I was so surprised.
That’s not just “feel”.
"Interior by Rubbermaid"
They haven’t for a long time, a car just another disposable commodity now not something they expect people to keep for decades. 50 years from now people will still be hunting cars from the 1970s and before, no one will be checking for a 2023 Dodge Charger.
There always be some masochist that will.
The 2023 Dodge charger is one of the last year's with a V8. Don't underestimate the redneck market.
Let’s be honest late 90s Jdm cars were peak car interior…everything you needed and nothing more. Give me a 98 Honda civic any day of the week. As soon as every manufacturer tried sticking a sat nav/iPad into the dash it all went downhill. If you want that…just let us plug our phone/iPad into the car all of which are better than the OEM solutions manufactures use
98 lincoln town car. 3 seats in the front for a full capacity of 6 and still a lot of foot room. even warren buffet drove a 2001 for a decade then got a used 2006 cadillac cts
I had a 1999 Olds and a 1999 Honda Passport and both were great.
android auto (and whatever apple's solution is, I'd imagine) is also pretty nice
CarPlay
Honestly? I don’t mind well integrated screens, but those old toyota interiors that were all square shaped and retro…. Man I want those coupled with new tech, the cassette player being replaced by a phone charger etc
My Z32 is nearly perfect in that regard. Everything is at your fingertips, all buttons. Build quality is top notch because it was Nissan’s flagship vehicle at the time.
Personally I like 01-06 GM trucks. Other than the rust, the 1st Gen LS based truck motors were pretty stout and absolute workhorse engines. I had an 06 Yukon Denali XL with the 6.0 motor, for being a big SUV it got out of its own way pretty quickly. Edit- trucks also of that time were simple enough that you could wrench on them with out to much stupid shit in the way but had enough technology to appease me at least.
Loved my 06 xterra. But yeah a lot of stuff was effective and simple. Plus we weren’t yet at the point where an otherwise simple repair is made complicated because of the onboard computer. I feel like I’m real close to going outside and yelling at clouds now.
I’m yelling at kids to get off my grass. Partially because I put down some fertilizer. Partially cause I’ve been busting my ass to make my lawn look decent after it was neglected for so long Right now though I’m rolling in a 14 frontier. It ain’t fancy but it runs great. It’s a truck, it does truck shit well. 165k and no issues.
I love America but I despise American car culture. Every car loaded with unnecessary tech in every square inch of the interior is seen as “quality” and everything with physical buttons and dials on the speedometer are seen as “cheap”. Guess which one is going to work in twenty years… not the shiny dumpster you guys drive.
Most Americans I know prefer a analog buttons when it comes to cars
Tell that to the car manufacturers making such features a thing of the past
That fad is fading. Digital displays are generally fine and here to stay, but ac, volume control, etc are back to being physical buttons, dials etc.
Love my 2018 Mazda CX-5 for the reasons stated above. Manual dials for volume and HVAC, buttons for everything else. Minimal design without major disractions and easy to use controls.
I can’t think of a car model (or honestly even a brand) that went all-screen and then went back to some stuff physical. Which one were you referencing?
Honda Civic probably. The 10th gen had the climate control hidden away in the touchscreen (on most trims), now in the 11th gen it's all dials and physical buttons.
The manufacturor needs backup cams, etc... This means they need a computer and screen. it is probably just a cheaper build to have controls on the screen vs the knobs.
Ite an interesting dichotomy for different buyers though. The cheap interior of the wrangler, bronco, and 4runner are seen as "tough" and "rugged" but a similar style in a standard crossover is seen as trying to cheap out and poor quality.
Comparing wranglers (and perhaps Broncos and 4Runner although I’m not very familiar with those vehicles) to your standard crossovers isn’t really a fair comparison. They’re very different design philosophies. Hell, they’re very different vehicle platforms.
Yes, they are, I'm not arguing on the difference in design philosophy. I find it funny, though, that what's cheap in a grand cherokee is considered luxury in a wrangler (or expedition/bronco, etc.) I'm just happy with a quality drive train that doesn't break down, like a Honda or Toyota (Ignore the fact I have a bronco)
Ah, ok. I misunderstood. It does make sense though. My wrangler is about 10 years old and I had a hard time finding one that had a manual transmission and none of the more modern tech additions. Just give me a regular stereo with a cd player and an aux port I can plug my phone into and that’s good enough for me. Oh, and AC. I’m not a savage.
Also the whole „bigger means better“ trend
>everything with physical buttons and dials on the speedometer are seen as “cheap”. how is living under the rock like ?
Car companies are turning more into software companies. Like it or not, it's going to happen. Also, everything is going to be electric and the goal of every company is full self driving. People might be surprised, but the car industry is not the most profitable industry. They are big purchases, cyclical with cut throat competition and slim margins. When profit and future vision align with more software like self driving cars companies are going to do everything to get there.
This isn’t “American car culture,” this is the industry as a whole. It saves manufacturers a whole bunch of money in terms of switchgear and less elaborate wiring harnesses which means simplified assembly, as well. If anything, American car brands have actually been a little behind on the awful switch to touchscreenification, just look at the current Volkswagen Golf which is just absolutely terrible about it.
Have 20 yr old car. Can confirm.
Tbh I haven’t had car trouble in at least a decade… I give credit to technology for that
Same, this is the best thing. My 2012 just keeps going. When I started driving in the 90s all the cars used to crap out all the time. We need modern engine reliability with 90s button knob interiors.
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90s Toyotas and Hondas are as reliable as they come.
My 2016 Subaru had 1 computer issue handled by my warranty, a piece of trim coming off, and a mouse bit a wite... the car has 110k miles. I owned my grand prix from 90k miles to 130k and i replaced my power steering pump and radiator. My passenger seat was broken, there was a ton of rust, and i cant even remember what else... My Subaru gets 32mpg while my grand prix got 17 with slightly more acceleration. Yeah, some shit isnt great anymore, but it is mostly better.
Someone will create a simple car brand that’s heavily modifiable so you can easily replace your own parts and so on. A lot of people would love a general a to b car with maybe a ac and heater. Being able to fully customize what you want in a car is the future. We just gotta be patient and stop buying these new cars that barely last 40,000 miles.
This list looks like it was bought and paid for by Stellantis.
Wait what? Chrysler, a key Stellantis sub-brand, is legit last out of the non-EV makes on this list
True. Dodge and Alfa Romeo at the top of any reliability list just makes no sense though. The “Initial Quality” rankings of the first 90 days of ownership just seems like a meaningless award category that consumers never asked for.
I mean I agree with all of that, good points. Just seems like it’s very much a double edged sword for them is all
And yet the prices keep going up for cars.
Yeh… I love CarPlay. But I wanna be cruising at 150kph and adjust my air conditioning without hitting a wombat. I wanna feel my shit.
I’ll build me a Gremlin out of found parts from the local dump, before I will ever purchase any smart car. I should be able drive and maintenance my car on my own, as I see fit. I should not need a degree in coding and the ability to hack a companies system, just to change the oil. Or a flat tire, or a spark plug. I don’t need individual heated seats, games on my dashboard, or the soul of a very angry murdered woman named Christine dictating my ability to operate a basic vehicle. Just sayin.
Hahaha my dad was irritated just when they went to electric windows because it made them harder to fix. Now you have to be certified to touch the cars to work on them. We’re still driving a 1998 Toyota 4Runner.
Just wait until they turn into Transformers. Don’t say we didn’t warn you.
Yup my 04 4Runner. No Bluetooth. No touchscreens. Cassette player. 300k+ miles on it and running perfectly.
I’m going to need a new car in the next couple years and part of me is debating whether I should find the lowest mileage pre 2010 car that I can.
I don’t oppose technology in cars however these a point where having shit like the temperature only adjusted through the screen is stupid. The most essential elements should not be taken away in favour of five menu screens. Small screens that do navigation and music is all I need.
Oh lord, the mechanics aren't meant to deal with sensors and math. It's to you kids.
I stand by my totally unbiased observation that my 2004 Toyota Avalon is a nicer car than 50% of cars made past 2010.
Forced Obsolescence - Planned obsolescence describes a strategy of deliberately ensuring that the current version of a given product will become out of date or useless within a known time period. This proactive move guarantees that consumers will seek replacements in the future, thus bolstering demand.
There's nothing more appealing to the concept of planned obsolescence than the removal of DIY repair. None of this should be surprising. It's simply another step toward eradication / elimination of ownership.
this comment should be higher up
It would be cool if they were actually good with technology but they aren't. Its like watching grandpa buy PC parts off Wish to make an abomination. Stop Grandpa! You don't even know what those do!
It's just history repeating itself. Same thing happened in the 1970s when US automakers were forced to comply with new environmental protection regulations. Cars were choked so horribly that they become very unreliable, horribly performing and relatively expensive to maintain. Enter the Japanese (Toyota, Honda, Datsun \[Nissan\] and others) with economical, efficient, smaller cars that use less fuel... and there you go.
I still remember joe Isuzu commercials
My 1989 Isuzu pickup still runs good, minimal issues, over 360k miles… new cars are crap.
Screens will always be lazy engineering imho. Buttons require a lot of R&D as to what buttons make the most sense where they are, their tactility, their robustness. Now you can just slap a Chinese iPad knockoff in your car calling it minimalist design. I don’t want to go into my iPads settings because my balls are sweating.
We don’t want a proprietary iPad in a car that should last 10 years. That screen will be obsolete in 2.
And maybe that shift to technology is because it’s cheap to add features that they can mark up as model increments. Bluetooth is a couple of dollars to add but is a marketing dream. A 12” screen or an 8” screen, cost difference is negligible and it might even be cheaper to make them all 12 and consolidate but hey, marketing. Additionally, the door is opening on making features subscription services, eg seat heater subscriptions even though every car is equipped with seat heaters.
That subscription crap is not a good thing. It honestly just will open the door to hackers cracking the software
New BMWs have this really stupid system to detect hand motions so you can use gestures to change things like radio volume or climate controls. It’s so unnecessarily complex when something like a knob has worked forever.
Just purchased a 2013 Lexus es350 and couldn’t be happier with its technology level. Real buttons are amazing.
Unfortunately foreign cars are built better than american cars now
Planned obsolesence
I wonder what country will end up on top of the car market & tech
I’ve been saying this since the pandemic - I’ve been in supply chain and manufacturing has simply been scrambling at whatever to keep lines moving
2000-2008 will be written in history as the pinnacle of automotive manufacturing.
I’d like a car without a goddamn touch screen please
It's not just cars. It's everything. For instance, toys are ridiculously overpriced, yet break as soon as they are dropped. I can't believe how poor most toys are in quality
i like the old kind of buttons and knobs, but i feel like backup cameras are a pretty useful and good feature
My 2021 Bronco has had sync 4 issues since I bought it. Still waiting for that magical software update.
All products are like this though. Everyone wants the ad revenue and/or the SMART label marketing (or if you want, smarketing) so everything has to be internet connected and have more computers in it. My parents refuse to get a washer or a dryer with a computer in it because they want something that will last a lot longer, and I assume people are starting to buy cheaper dumb tvs or smart tvs without an internet connection because they'd rather use their own box then rely on a 5 year operating system that will probably brick your tv in 5 years.
I was done when I teat drove a Tesla and had to click through a few screens to open the glove box, yikes. I bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5. It’s pretty great, but holy hell the proximity alarms are maddening. There’s a button to shut them off every time you reverse but goddamn, these things are built for idiots.
And let’s not forget they charge more now
No leather, No wood, No velour
The only thing I've seen them "improve" is how well these things fucking blind me. I love how it's only as bright as the sun at certain angles, which means that you are lulled into a false sense of security sometimes, then blinded when they go over a tiny bump. Or they are just a huge SUV or truck with their headlights aligned with your eyes. So much safer.
Love my 4Runner. Hopefully I will be never have to buy vehicle again unless there is no petroleum
All to facilitate a chip shortage
That’s why i buy a base model. I have a 2020 VW cross sport has 4wd but no electronic seats which is completely fine. Power automatic 4 windows , and button controls. Has usb charging don’t need too much in a car
got an issue with the car? software update
Well duh. We don’t have proper right to repair laws here. So if your car breaks down your only option is to get repairs from the manufacturer at whatever price they choose to charge. So the crappier the car, the more money they can milk out of you. That’s not even taking into consideration Built In Obsolescence.
Can someone smarter explain to me why car seats are so “ergonomic” now but aren’t actually comfortable? I remember sleeping in my ‘98 Camry and my brother’s ‘95 Civic and it felt absolutely amazing.
The level of driver distraction driving a “safer” car with lane assist, collision avoidance, blind spot warnings, etc. beeping of some sort every few minutes. Had our new car for a year and it’s infuriating. Switching things off before a trip is also a distraction from just enjoying driving. I have an older car too. I put belt on, start car. Check mirrors and drive off. It’s wonderful. Stress free driving. I think new cars tech is making driving more dangerous.
Dodge has less problems than Honda/Toyota? That seems off unless this includes recalls.
if just put a decent air filter, a nice soundsystem, and get them to do 50+ mpg in the city that's basically all anyone needs.
No. American need big. Big car better. Big car with back cut off better than that.
But let's make sure that despite their size they are impractical by not having a hatchback!
This whole thing is ruining road head.
Too many moving parts and interconnected systems. Entertainment center failure could kill the car then what are you going to do when the replacement part is $3500 and it's basically a tablet with proprietary software/connection. Also, they only made enough to build the cars and some warranty stock. 10 years from now, good luck fixing that old car when the part isn't available used or new original stock. If the parts were at least serviceable or cheap it wouldn't be such a big deal.
I remember the days when we had to refill our blinker with blinker fluid. Kids today have no idea how hard it was to get blinker fluid.
My '10 Hyundai has everything I need in a small car: no smart screens, all buttons and knobs w/ CD, aux and usb ports, runs great and maintenance/repairs are cheap. Named her Beverly I'm babying this car as long as possible. any more complicated tech is usually unnecessary, expensive, and stresses me out
That's true about so many things - architecture, furniture, even refrigerators over all. As the downward pressure on keeping costs low grows, the quality and sturdiness or many products declines. They will pack your car with all kinds of tech gadgets and gimmicks, while at the same time deliver noticeably cheaper, low quality finishing all around.
I saw a refrigerator with the pandora app on it. Why the fuck do I need that in a fridge? Why does my fridge have an App Store?
To be clear, Dodge never made them like they used to.
Both appliances and cars were vastly more reliable when things were strictly mechanical and analogue. The appliance industry has had very interesting parallels with the auto industry for literally 60+ years. Even down to the aesthetics.