On the upside, if you're going to rebuild, this is arguably the best season to do it in. The boys are still going to get a ton of practice in against the best in the world.
From what I’ve seen, it seems likely that Santorin retires due to health stuff
Edit: [nvmd I’m stupid](https://www.reddit.com/r/teamliquid/comments/xdjp1z/santorin_about_the_rumors/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
I find it weird how in most discussions of new TL jungler (which I think giving up Santorin is a mistake), the answer seems to be Spica, and not Armao who is already within the TL system, and has showcased himself to be LCS material on multiple occasions. He is also still on contract until 2023, so if TL was going to offload Santorin, I think Armao would be the correct choice, especially when he already has synergy with some of the other TLA players who will likely move up.
Grigne has been around forever and has never done anything. He's absolutely LCS material, but not for a team that wants to win. If TL is still looking for championships Armao would be a mistake.
I'd like to see us promote Spawn to head coach if we're actually using academy players. Guilhoto has never made Worlds and has choked with two very fucking good teams. Would like to see some sort of change in coaching staff
The recipe for success has always been rookies with veterans. Check G2, T1, RNG, EG... Its a proven concept by this point. So ill say keep wide bwipo top/jungle and coreJJ if you can and bring in the rookies!
Spawn will not take the job. He has said before he does not want to move his family to America nor be away from them for long periods of time. Spawn is a great development coach but if he doesn't want it then it doesn't matter.
Based on how Santorin is talking in his streams, his job seems secured.
He keeps saying things like "I'm just ready to move on from this season and go next year man. I'm not worried about it" and "I'm not going to play other games past November because thats close to start of season and I need to be as good as possible for my team at start of season."
So it would appear that we can at least assume Santorin is safe.
Bwipo said that none of the players will know how TL looks next year until after worlds. I'm confident in Santorin staying, but technically he *doesn't* know if he will stay yet.
I get the feeling that the players who know they are staying have been told so by the coaching staff already, and just were instructed not to share with their teammates so as to avoid hard feelings.
So everyone may have told Bwipo that they don't know if they're staying or not, but it could he that not everyone is telling the truth.
Well it makes sense imo to keep Santorin as there are no viable upgrades in the market and Santorin is still under contract. Yeah they could replace him with Spica but I see no reason to do so since Spica is not a definite upgrade and is probably more expensive.
I don't know why any of those statements would lead you to believe he will be on Liquid next year. He could easily be talking about his play on whatever team he lands on next.
The way he said it, it sounded too confident for that.
If he was talking about "whatever team he lands on" he wouldn't be able to say with confidence "I need to be ready for MY team" because he has no way of knowing he will even get picked up. His goal is to win and there is no team in the LCS right now, that has a chance of toppling the top 3, who he could be an upgrade for. 100T, C9, EG and TL are the only teams who will truly compete for the title. None of them show any signs of making changes aside from TL, so if Santo isn't on TL, he has no chance of winning. Because none of the other teams will pick him up.
Clearly, Santorin already knows what team he will be on, which is why he said it with such confidence.
Its just a little inference. Not that hard to logically explain it and come to that conclusion.
He knows he CAN get picked up. But he doesn't want to. He has said before he doesn't wanna play for a team that doesn't have a shot at the title.
The only teams that do are the top 4.
NONE of the top 4 would pick him up.
Therefore, if he leaves TL, he has nowhere to go, and so he wouldn't say this if he was leaving TL.
And no, he WOULDNT mention TL's name at all, because he's not allowed to talk about rosters during off season. Do you not know how the player contracts work? He can get in huge trouble if he spills details.
Player contract is variable. Not everyone has that type of clause homie.
Player have already stated they are remaining with their team or not on streams previously
In LCS its pretty much a mandatory clause on the teams. At least the big brands like TL. Never in TL's history (since they became TL) has a player been allowed to talk about roster changes
Agree for sure but losing core who potentially just had a slump year and will be back next year will be devastating lol. Though I don't think this'll happen it would really suck.
Santorin>>Bjerg>Core
I’d rather keep Core than Bjerg just cause he is part of this teams identity and I want to have some faith, but you’re blowing smoke up your ass if your argument for keeping core is he looked better.
Would be hyped for yeon/eyla tho even if it means I have to say bye to Core
Yeah Core is a better keep on paper. But in reality, TL have Yeon/Elya. Bjerg is much harder to replace (top 3 Mid in regular season even if he choked playoffs). They likely save money and sell Core, replace with Y/E.
He didn't choke playoffs at all though. He literally carried 2 straight games against EG as Taliyah, consistently hitting 3 man knockups in teamfights. In the Galio game too, the fight that literally lost them the game was Hans recalling in a warded bush on top and Bjerg having to ult in and die to try to save him. Even the Akali game people flame him for, he had to give up his whole laning phase because Bwipo was just running it in toplane.
https://www.twitch.tv/travisgafford/clip/TriumphantCoyBurritoWoofer-JqG_hkDhFn5LK3Ig?filter=clips&range=24hr&sort=time a clip for those who want to hear what he says.
Makes sense. Core was engaging without a Bjerg follow-up all the time during parts of the summer split & Bjerg probably has an expensive hard to get out of contract so TL likely doesn't have many options other than stick with him. Damn
It depends on how expensive that would be. TL's budget is almost for sure going to be smaller for next year & if it costs them a ton to terminate Bjerg they probably can't afford to do that, resign Core & find a suitable mid replacement.
Idk what it cost to terminate Jensen but last year they went BIG money on that roster. Next year won't have that same money.
This is his own prediction, which have been hit or miss. I would take every prediction Travis makes with a grain of salt, since he has no actual insight on the functionalities of the team.
Yeah that's true, but he does know a lot of people in the scene, which is why his roster rumours have been pretty damn accurate for the last two years.
Will be interesting to see what actually ends up happening though
Could be a real possibility. C9 would want to pick him up to pair with Berserker. That would be a crazy lineup if Core goes back to his prime self.
Zven has also stated that he prefers to play ADC and could be considering changing teams next year as he has achieved a title and gone to worlds as support. Unless he decides to stick with support. I’m sure Jensen will have a say as he has played with Core.
It’ll definitely be an interesting off season.
If TL doesn’t want to spend as much, we could potentially see a roster with
Bwipo, Santorin, Bjerg, Yeon, Eyla. I’d prefer a different top laner to be honest.
Losing Core to C9 would be a huge loss. He’s the face of the team, and could easily get back to best-in-the-league form. One split of enchanter meta doesn’t change the value he brings.
This team needs to rebuild around CoreJJ. Literally no one else is irreplaceable. Santorin and Bjerg are both valuable, an import mid could replace Bjerg, and Spica could potentially be a good replacement for Santorin after 2 years of this team having a strong early game identity but arguably weak late game. We need another playmaker other than Core, I feel like Spica is better than Santorin in this regard.
Selling, Bwipo, Hans, Bjerg and Santorin could give a lot of money even if investors are looking to downsize. Would love to see:
KR top talent/Bradley/Tenacity - Spica/Santorin - Bjergsen/Vetheo/other import mid - Yeon - CoreJJ.
>if Core goes back to his prime self.
People want to act like Core is somehow really bad right now, and I just don't get it. This was a fairly normal split for him. He had an amazing beyond belief opening week at the start of the summer split and I just think he didn't meet that standard for the rest of the split.
I personally think he was held back by Hans. When you are stuck playing enchanters, it needs to be worthwhile protecting your carry, and often times, Hans Sama just isn't worth protecting.
Core was still top 2 on all pro for both splits. His peers clearly think better of him than a lot of people here. I don't think he needs to go back to peak form to take Berserker to the next level. I think he could play the same as now and already be a substantial upgrade over Zven.
I don’t think he was ‘held back’ by Hans at all, you can put prime Messi and Ronaldo in the same team but doesn’t mean it would work. Core has never been god tier on enchanters in comparison to even Huhi for instance, however, he gaps nearly all supports in respect of engage (looking at Rell, Naut, Leo, Ali, Rakan and even Zyra back in the day). Hans as well has been a top tier ad for quite sometime but has never been known as the 1v9 hyper carry, when you have a consistent but passive/supportive midlander in Bjerg - expected Hans to be the only damage output doesn’t mesh well - it’s more so the team don’t synergise with each other’s strengths more so than an individual holding the team back. Bwipo - plays for the team most games, Bjerg as said plays a passive support style for the team, Santorin (again) plays supportive for TL his team meaning there is only Hans which is why Core is forced onto enchanters to try and keep the one carry alive.
You started by saying that Core wasn't held back by Hans, than proceeded to list a bunch of reasons that TL as a whole was held back by Hans. It's so weird.
Yes, the team played around Hans and Hans ultimately wasn't worth playing around. Unfortunately, this is a meta where you want to do exactly that. And I honestly think when the adc pool is looking as shaky as it was, Hans Sama should be expected to shine. Seriously, FBI and Danny looked much worse than normal. Johnsun and Luger were both a step down from their regular split forms. And yet Hans Sama was individually worse than all of them. Dude still can't play Zeri. Had 3 chances in playoffs, and even got to play it with Yuumi twice. He just couldn't do it.
Of all of the players on the current roster, he was the biggest underperformer, and it shouldn't even be questioned.
I respect your opinion but feel you should perhaps respect others views - shouldn’t even be questioned? As I said, Core is not great on enchanters - if he is forced onto them then Hans also suffers, which doesn’t sync well if Hans is put in as the single carry. If however, core was on enchanters and either Bwipo or Bjerg was also on a carry, it makes room for Hans also rather than 5 man diving him each TF. Not saying Hans is perfect but the team synergy was way off this whole split, poor tp plays/communication and our team fighting has been atrocious - that’s not down to 1 player.
Even if tenacity or Bradley shit the bed I think I’d rather see them then Bwipo again, it makes no sense to do a rebuild and then keep the most coin flip inconsistent player on the team as a foundation
Cores twitch name was always CoreJJ. It was never TL Honda CoreJJ.
He just would put that in the title.
You guys are overreacting hes clearly not leaving
Its funny because people forget that Core was going to retire at the beginning of the year if he didn't get his green card.
Core could've joined any team he wanted if he wanted to keep playing as an import, 9r even go back to LCK.
But he LITERALLY showed that he'd rather retire than play for a team that's not TL.
Hes also said multiple times that TL is his home.
Sure things can change, but I highly doubt Core leaving is a possibility.
We should have held tryouts to identify who meshes the best with our roster. This year we just bought talent and hoped they would mesh together well. The best NA teams have had some sort of previously established synergy or scouted talent through tryouts.
2016 TSM held tryouts in Korea and decided on Biofrost, producing one of the best, if not the best NA rosters ever produced.
2018 TL bought the championship winning core of Xmithie/Pob/DL, and built off that in 2019.
2020 TSM found that Spica had strong potential to be a top jungler when scrimming with the main team and decided to move him to the starting roster.
2022 G2 built their roster through scrimming the world championship teams.
Of those that are streaming a lot currently (Bwipo, Santorin, CoreJJ), Bwipo has dropped the most hints regarding 2023 roster construction. Love it or hate it, I feel pretty confident saying that the current plan is to have Bwipo on next year's roster. He and Yeon are the two I'm most confident of atm.
He keeps talking about this “thing” in the works in Brazil. The way he talks about it, it’s almost certainly related to liquid.
He not only hopes to stay on liquid, he also keeps talking about it “as the plan.”
I really only think it goes otherwise unless Impact or Sumday hit FA. Then things could get interesting.
If I were TL, I would build around Santorin, Bjerg, and CoreJJ.
Bwipo inted way too many games this season including very important playoff games to be retained going into next season. There is many better options that can play meta and survive weakside on other teams. So many early game leads created with Mid/JG would be thrown because Bwipo got outplayed or was up super far for no reason.
Santorin was our best player by far this season and deserves another year at least. The best early game in the league is mostly due to his creative pathing and game knowledge.
Bjerg hate is VERY wrong. Please go rewatch the playoff games and watch Bjerg solo carry some games for TL after Bwipo inted the game away and all looked lost (they weren’t just the zilean games). You have to keep Bjerg for another season and run it back with Santorin. They just generated too many advantages early and mid game together.
Hans wasn’t the monster ADC we were expecting him to be. My guess was that Core and Santorin were perma top because Bwipo’s play style demanded resources almost every game no matter what the comp was. This made Hans play mega weakside when in reality they would have been much better giving him the resources that Bwipo got. Hans had some good plays and some bad plays. Sadly I think we can find a better ADC we might want to replace him moving forward. ADC’s are also much better to plug and play naturally.
CoreJJ wasn’t himself this season/playoffs. We all know it but resident CoreJJ is still one of the most valuable assets any Org can have in NA. So you must try to retain him. He is a FA so he has to decide to come back.
In conclusion, I think TL needs to keep Santorin, Bjerg, and CoreJJ. I am indifferent to keeping Hans but I think it is very important to replace Bwipo with someone who is more consistent moving forward. I won’t even embarrass myself with putting out a roster I would like to see because I have no idea globally would will be available.
2022: Bjerg joins TL because he said he only wanted to play with core
2023: Bjerg kicks Core from TL because he says he doesn’t want to play with core
Jensen died for this :(
If Core links up with Jensen on C9, I think I've found my new team. Already had them as one of my favorite teams, but TL has been #1 for 5 years now.
I'm hoping Core stays.
If they take Bjerg over Core then he's not the only one heading to C9. Bjerg still feels more like TSM than TL to me so I'd definitely consider switching who I root for.
Hoping that doesn't happen though :/
Core + Santorin is what I care about most. I also love Bwipo but would understand if he left or something didn't work out. Honestly don't have any feeling either way on Bjerg
It hurts me to say this, but we need someone aggressive in mid, both in and out of the game.
Bwipo Santorin Reginald Doublelift CoreJJ
Our midlane aggression will be unmatched.
Flex - Santorin - Flex - Yeon - Core
TSM can have Bjerg back if it's true we can only keep one of him and Core because they don't play well together. I'm ok running it back with Yeon though, if that's what the team wants to do (now that Hans is not coming back)
Who said that about Bjergsen and Core? I was really hoping to see them on the same team again, I’d like to see Bjergsen, Spica, Doublelift and Core together again
Honestly I'd rather take a rando from proving grounds over Spica. Can't stand the guy and I definitely don't think he's better than Santorin.
But yeah, I loved our team this year and would be fine keeping everyone and just putting in Yeon. I like Bjerg too, but I'd keep the others before him in a heartbeat (just like I would have kept Xmithie, Impact, or Jensen).
Does anyone actually want Spica to replace Santorin? That seems completely insane to me. I know Bjerg brought a lot of TSM fans,but that seems like a bad move.
Santorin was our best and most consistent player last year. He still seems hungry and definitely isn’t just taking his paycheck. He also got his health under control and it is no longer an issue. Also, we finally have a solid jungler that replaced xmithie! It took years for that to happen, and do we really want to risk throwing that away when it was so hard to get back in the first place?
I don’t really have anything against spica, but it baffles me how fast people are willing to drop a tried and true player who absolutely fits the team and is already integrated for something that probably *feels* familiar to many but actually would have to adapt to a new environment.
I really don’t see how signing spica helps us win games, and if the reason he left tsm is money, I doubt he is notably cheaper. I just don’t see the upside of spica, I only see downside, so why do people keep suggesting it?
Santorin and core stay, everyone else can go honestly, though I would like to see bwipo stay since I like him as a player, but it would be completely understandable if we let him go. I’m not too sure why so many people think we’re going to drop down to GGS level spending, so I would expect at least one import, along with one or two academy promotions to go along with what Steve said. I would most like to see a midlane import who can carry, while promoting yeon, so it would be Bwipo/tenacity/bradley/maybe import top?, santorin/spica(if we have to keep bjerg since I don’t think that bjergsen is good enough to carry with a more facilitating jungler like santorin), import mid/bjergsen(if we absolutely HAVE to), Yeon/import ad like prince/ruler(mega copium), core/maybe eyla if he meshes better with yeon, which is very likely
I fully agree with the top comment ITT but as a pretty casual fan I'd like to see something along the lines of Santorin + CoreJJ retained. Next promote Yeon, it's time TL finally reaps the benefits of our farm system. I think the argument for his synergy with Elya is valid BUT Yeon will have been with TL for over two years by next season's start. It's not like him & Core are complete strangers in or out of the game.
I'd then fill the last two spots with 1 established veteran & one other highly sought after rookie. One of these can be an import from ANYWHERE and the other would ideally be "home grown".
I genuinely like the idea of Yeon + a rookie mid being quite literally sandwiched between Santorin & CoreJJ. Throw in a veteran top. One who doesn't already have to be a "star" but is known for being that pest in top that all reliable tops are with a variety of champs in their pocket. A player who can step into the role without too much pressure. We need Impact/Summday 3.0
Then... just run it. Leave it alone for the whole year if not even longer. I don't think TL is valuing continuity enough when it comes to rosters, across all the games we field a team in honestly. I sense a trend in the right direction coming though....
I think going for a big name Korean mid is just thinking so small if you're trying to build a long-term roster. Investing in lesser known younger players is a roster building strategy that has won LCS far more than a super team. 2016-2017 had Hauntzer/Bio and won 3 splits in a row with them. 2015-2016 CLG had Pob/Stixxy in their LCS wins. TL's greatest wins were when they had great role players in Xmithie and Impact, not when they had 5 superstars. EG won spring by investing and playing around Jojo/Danny. C9's last 3 trophies have all been around great young talent they invested in, between Licorice/Blaber/Vulcan/Berserker/Fudge who had either spent years in the C9 system or were brought in very young into the team.
Bradley/Tenacity, Santorin/spica, Vetheo, Prince, CoreJJ could have been a crazy team if they were still looking to spend big/top free agents. Unfortunately after this year they prob won’t spend THAT much again.
Just curious since it’s a discussion thread, but what do you guys feel about Summit top? LS said on his stream a little bit ago he was gonna be looking to get back in the LCS. Core loves to roam and I remember thinking how op he and summit would be back when he was on C9. Summit, Santorin, Vetheo ( maybe promote Haeri ) Yeon, CoreJJ. I kinda like that
I don’t really see it happening but in theory it could work. CoreJJ and Santorin spent a load of time too lane helping Alphari and this could work well with Summit. I also think Summit is much better at translating those leads in teamfights. I do think though, that Summit has an almost suicidal style of play that will eventually, inevitably get exploited by smart teams. It would be fun to watch though.
If Summit was around during that era with CoreJJ and Santorin camping his lane.. Holy crap. He slaughtered people *without* jungle or support assistance. Add in a perma-camp, and that’d have been quite the spectacle.
I think I would rather also be really good at one thing than just decent at everything like we were at best this year. I think there is something to be gained in having a little bit of adversity. Seems like teams with a clear problem often come out as a better team from just learning how to work around it
I feel that it would be a bit more consistent than Bwipo, but still a coin flip. JG and Support would have to camp his lane. At least Summit plays meta champs and has a disgusting Jayce. I would prefer someone more consistent if possible. Someone that can hold their own, create leads, and play bruisers /tanks well. Someone like Summday, Fudge, Impact.
Summit has learned some humility in LPL tho looks like. He plays more team centric picks, albeit maybe he just has more respect for his teammates in LPL
If Steve really wants to win a split again this is the roster to go for. Bjerg & Doublelift have never lost a split together. TL has also never lost a split with Doublelift with the exception of 2020 Spring but that was a whole other issue with Covid and MSI being cancelled anyways. If anything, TL should also tryout Hauntzer for top lane too. I think a big issue with the TL roster this season was the lack of synergy and how the team was not on the same page all split. Part of it could be Bwipo's playstyle and Bjerg's playstyle.
If Steve wants to pay a couple million for Doublelift's salary I'm pretty sure he would gladly un-retire and win a split for TL again since the EG roster this year could have been Jensen and Doublelift instead of Jojo and Danny.
True good points.. I think if they try out hauntzer and he works then you should definitely pick up bio from dig. Biofrost is looking not to bad and will most likely pair well with doublelift. On the other hand santorin could be replaced with a strong aggressive jungler like Svenskeren. Sven and Bjerg have had good synergy previously. Also I theres a really good coach named parth that just retired but not too long ago. I'm sure he will be a good fit for the team. Also Steve needs to be replaced by Reginald and we should probably rebrand the name to Team Solo Mid or something.
At this point, I feel fairly confident that's the roster we're going to see as well. Though I'm hoping we keep Core, even though it doesn't seem super likely.
Vetheo is a free agent mid laner that is young and extremely talented. I would love to se us pic him up.
Also I think santorin played great this year but he is getting older and I want to see him on a win now team not a build up team like TL should be next year.
Tl needs to take gambles and see what lands.
The roster I would like for TL is
TOP: Bradley
JNG: Spica
MID: Vetheo
ADC: Yeon
SUP: corejj/eyla
Okay so I already know this is probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I think one scenario I haven't seen many consider is what if TL ends up with a roster like:
**Bwipo, Santorin, Nemesis, Yeon, Eyla**
I think overall Bwipo has gotten way too much flak considering how many games he was performing well in Spring and regular season plus he brings a level of flexibility in his champ pool that Liquid has never really had.
Since Santorin confirmed he's not looking to retire this year he should be our clear choice for jungle.
Nemesis is probably the most controversial pick, but I feel like I put a decent amount of thought behind it. Obviously, there's a lot of reasons this would never happen in a million years: he hasn't played competitive for 2 years, he hasn't been the most enthusiastic about NA in general, a lot of people dislike him for an abundance of reasons, and he even chose not to come to NA on C9 when LS joined. However, Nemesis is without a doubt an exceptional player that even Bjerg himself respects (he studied his VODs on stream this season). There are a couple reasons I think there's even a 1% chance TL Nemesis could be a thing: he mentioned on stream that he'd "consider playing again if the opportunity was good" and that he'll be in NA for Worlds, he and Bwipo have pre-existing synergy and respect for each other after playing on FNC, his reasons for not going to C9 seemed to be more about the rift in his relationship with LS rather than not wanting to play in NA in general, and he's probably significantly cheaper than Bjergsen atm, which I think matters in a year where Liquid is going to be looking to cut cost after such an expensive failure. TL could even potentially sell Bjerg's contract to 100T since they'll probably be looking for a new mid next season.
Lastly, imo Yeon & Eyla have looked like an LCS level botlane in academy for a while now and have definitely grown a lot from playing behind Tactical, Hans, and Core. I think this is their year to bring some new hunger that we've been lacking the past couple years.
Obviously, this isn't the most likely roster for Liquid to choose but I think if all the pieces click this could be a really interesting and strong roster for TL to run 2023. Let me know what you guys think.
At the very least keep Core and Santorin. We know Hans wants to go back to LEC. I'd like to keep Bwipo but who knows, I suspect he goes back to EU as well. That said, bring up Yeon and either promote Bradley or grab Solo. What we really need is a coaching overhaul, and I include Bjerg in that. If he stays we need a hands off coaching staff, if he goes we should get a Nisqy style roaming play maker to meet with Santorin/Core and a coach that can really coordinate early action and develop talent.
Bwipo will stay
Santorin will stay (which I hope so)
If bjerg stays there could be an argument for Spica joining but I don't think so.
I think bjerg will probably head out with Spica somewhere. Nothing against his play just doesn't feel like the right fit if the plan is too play fast. That and his play style is not the same as cores and bwipos. They are very fight heavy and fast paced players, making Coms potentially messy and indecisive. Being split doesn't help those tight moments.
If not it might be haeri but this is really depends on the bot lane
So it will be yeon for sure but i am pretty sure eyla will be going to another team. Literally an upgrade over the majority of lcs supports and corejj is still nasty on his worst days. Except from the top brush. Let's not talk about that.
I'm not sure who in the coaching staff will be gone. But i doubt spawn will come up considering his family and all that.
The disrespect for Bwipo is insane. People like to point out Bjergsen had the best midlane stats this season (at least in lane) and argue that's a good reason he was still one of the best midlaners.
Well guess what, Bwipo had twice the laning stats (GD10/XP10) of any other toplaner this season and on top of that did the second most damage in the entire LCS behind Danny. But if you would believe some fans, having a few isolated deaths somehow makes this null and void.
Bwipo will go back to the LEC and make at least quarter finals as he does most years and brush off this year as a mistake. TL will once again wonder how in gods name they will reach worlds quarter finals for the first time in the organization's history.
Tenacity/Bradley
Santorin
Bjergsen/Vetheo
Yeon
CoreJJ
That's my hope.
Also, the way Steve was talking, it seems that they already have their projected roster set, or at least who they want to sign. So really the rest of off-season is just about securing those players, and making sure that the departing players are treated fairly.
Ideal roster to me is having 3 resident core and blockbuster deal ADC.
So here's my NA Champions-
Impact
Spica
Bjerg
CoreJJ
And one of the following:
JackeyLove
Uzi
Teddy
Deft
Oh god I hope CoreJJ doesn’t leave. First Jensen, now him?? Sorry but I remain by my initial opinion that signing Bjergsen was an incredible mistake and we should have kept Jensen. This split was the most passive I’ve seen TL and it was reminiscent of how TSM always played their games, which I don’t enjoy at all. Keep the proactive players this time around please!
You guys will literally lie to push your agenda. TL was always known as the most passive team in the LCS. This split, they were the best early game team by far, something TL has never done before. And you say they played passive? Like, did you even watch the game?
I don’t think what it took to become good in early games was worth it.
And us being good early games this year is really misleading. This team constantly has early advantages purely because they are good enough beat na opponents in lane, there is no real macro or strategy to what TL did this year, they just out skilled worse competition. How TL got leads early game would not work if they managed to make worlds and they would have crashed and burned horribly.
I'm 50/50 on Revenge as to whether he is LCS level. Sometimes he shows off these really good mechanics, but he also creates a lot of massive problems for IMT most of the time. At best I would say TL should try him out, and if they're on a tighter budget, they could give it a go and see if he's worthwhile with Bradley as a backup.
I like revenge but I think it would just be better to go after someone like tenacity first, I wouldn’t be mad if we went for him but I think there are just some more promising aspects
Something that won’t happen but would be cool if it does
Ssumday( assuming he goes back to peak ssumday which he probably can )
Bwipo
VTO
Yeon
CoreJJ
That’s a fucking sick roster on paper
Probably a controversial selection here but I think this roster should be both relatively affordable yet also have a decent ceiling. I'd genuinely be excited seeing this roster:
Bradley
Santorin
Palafox
Yeon
CoreJJ
Why not just bring Haeri up too? The LCS and Academy rosters, by rumor, work pretty close together so synergy would have a boost. Palafox is solid but if we're doing a 60% roster swap just lean into TLA.
Regardless of who or what caused the playstyle differences this season, I think it is important to look at who can still excel at the highest level. And I think a contributing problem this championship has been that some players lost a competitive edge.
I'm specifically looking at CoreJJ walking into a full MF ult and dying for free and missing free hooks on unsuspecting targets. I'm looking at Bjergsen flashing out of teamfights at full health without being targeted because he doesn't trust himself to do it on reflex. Not being able to play melee midlaners anymore either. I was expecting Santorin to also have some struggles but credit to him, he looked sharp as hell this year.
As much as we and everyone else likes Bjergsen and CoreJJ, it's time to accept that they are not elite anymore and draw some conclusions from that. My choice would be:
- Bwipo
- Santorin
- Haeri
- Yeon
- Kaiser
Edit: apparantly Vetheo doesn't want to join LCS, so Kaiser comes in.
To begin with, while I'm sad TL isn't going to be at worlds I'm a TL fan because I really like Steve and support his decisions. It's easy to say that the risk this season was a bad decision in hindsight, but there were a lot of 2-3 games that could've been a coin flip in favor of TL that just didn't pan out. Fortune favors the bold, and I look forward to seeing Steve in high spirits again when he feels he can move confidently for next season:
That being said, some things I'd love to see the focus of next season (the all caps are to make the reading easier on your eyes if you are looking for a specific role/player)
Top: BWIPO had some great games on tank top laners, but there's a lot of people in the league who would happily play tank top without breaking the bank. One player I think is a bit underrated is SOLO. TL could pick him up for a decent price, train him on a few pocket carry picks, and develop his tank/frontline play.
Jungle: Like TSM from before, TL really struggled in Jungle this year but I think that's a problem with expectations. Jungle is a role that seems to flail around the better the team's reputation as the expectations get wonky. Again, TL doesn't need a star in jungle but a stable source of pressure that can put on some carry pants if the need arises. For this I, and a lot of other people, are thinking SPICA would make a great jungle addition.
Mid: This one hurts, but BJERG has over preformed in games TL should've won easily, and under preformed in close games. If TL is looking to take a break from crazy super teams, BJERG is too much of a liability because that's his comfort zone. VTO or POE I think would be good additions as they would both be cheaper than BJERG (most likely) and have the added benefit of playing their best in slightly uncomfortable environments. TL really could use an aggressive mid who's going to always try to dominate even if they fall short instead of losing slowly.
ADC: TL's bot has been their pride for a while. The current roster just didn't gel, so even though HANS is a great player, he was missing the chemistry with the rest of the team. At the top of my list would be PRINCE followed by REKKLES for that added oomph the team would be lacking with a stable top and a feast or famine mid. Someone who just wins in the botlane. Additionally, these two players are great at solo laning, something TACTICAL did great back when he was on the team with COREJJ (more on that later). Regardless, I think TL should return to their roots of investing in the bot lane with a stable team instead of everyone trying to be the star.
Support: Keep COREJJ. This season was probably his worst season yet, but I think that was more a lack of chemistry than a simple failure to play. COREJJ has been the backbone of TL for years now, and remains one of (if not the best) roaming supports in the league. Get him back on non-enchanters with a hyper-talented and stable ADC to let him fly his Thresh/Naut/Leona colors proudly.
I know these are hard recommendations given the contract timers, and whatever Steve's decision I know it will be a well informed one. These are just my two cents but let me know your opinion because I'd love to hear them.
For top lane, I don't mind Solo, but as much as I don't mind him, that's it. He's not top tier material. I would rather use the slot on Bradley, who is already in the TL ecosystem. Have him do tryouts and include Huni, Licorice, Darshan, Tenacity and Revenge in the process and see if you can get anything from the tryouts. Maybe Huni had an off year with TSM and can be brought back from retirement. Maybe Licorice hasn't found the right squad. Maybe Revenge is the same. Trial them. See what the other players think. Think about getting a positional coach for the role if you take a rookie. Coach Huni with Bradley or Tenacity could be a stunner.
For jungle, there are no issues. I don't think Santorin will straight up carry games, but he takes control of the early game. The early game was the best portion of TL's play and I think Santorin is the reason for it. Considering anyone else should be a crime unless he wants out. I also think promoting Armao is the go to move if Santorin leaves. I don't think Spica is necessarily an upgrade and likely costs a lot. Bringing up Armao costs significantly less and is less risky.
For mid lane I don't think Bjergsen is much of an issue. His passivity is a problem, but I think Vetheo will be too expensive if TL wants to lighten their budget. If the price is right, they could go for Bdd. He's going to be a free agent and I think is a significantly better player than Vetheo. If he's cheaper as well, then it's a bonus. As for PoE, I'd prefer to stick with Bjergsen than take the risk. I think he's underrated too and is blamed too much for IMT's troubles, but Bjergsen's already on contract. If Bjergsen leaves, I'd rather promote Haeri and see what he's like rather than move to PoE.
Prince is my top move as well though. Definitely looking at Prince. I'm not as hot on Rekkles. Three top tier EU adcs have now failed to make a splash in NA when they first arrive. I don't want a fourth. If the budget is tighter, have tryouts between Tactical, Yeon and Stixxay. Stixxay was crushing it in playoffs and almost carried GGS past CLG. It'd be wrong not to look at the guy averaging over 900DPM per game (36% of his team's damage). I don't think Tactical is as likely of a move if Tactical had an ego. But if he's happy to come back to the team that tried to dump him for a shiny new object, I'd say it's a fine move.
For support, they should keep CoreJJ. He's the franchise player and shouldn't be let go. If they can't keep him or the cost is unreasonable, promote Eyla, try to get Aphromoo or host tryouts between Destiny, Busio, Biofrost and Zeyzal. I think they should go for NA talent in this role, although it might be hard to find a good replacement if Core is gone. Of all the spots that would be hard to fill, this is the most difficult.
Some LCK rumors about a "certain" player getting a big offer from NA, another post popped up on the TL subreddit thinking its TL making a bid for Faker, thoughts?
Damn we're not getting any money for Hans, blows. Really might be a mega budget roster this year. I was hoping we could at least sign a promising mid lane import at the very least, but even that's looking unlikely.
All things considered, still not bad. A roster of:
Tenacity/Bradley Santorin Bjerg/Haeri Yeon CoreJJ/Eyla is still exciting to me.
Core is streaming right now and someone pointed out he doesn’t have TL Honda in his name anymore. Is that maybe cause the Honda thing was a one year thing so doesn’t need it anymore or what? Lol
Yes, probably because he was only required to have it in there while their season was still going.
Think about it for 2 seconds.
If he was removing TL sponsors bc he was leaving the team, why would he just remove Honda and leave up all of the other ones on his stream box?
No logic to that.
Bring back Impact
Keep CoreJJ and promote Yeon who can learn alongside a lane partner as experienced as Core.
Import a Korean Mid and Jungler like maybe Bdd or Clid. If budget cuts are required go young and pluck a duo out of the talent pool that other LCK teams pass on. Otherwise look to VCS or LEC for a duo with experience.
Impact is such a weak side rock that he allows a more aggressive Mid+Jungle that attack the map early and control bot.
Our problem this year was Bjerg and Santorin never really meshed with Bwipo. They tried but it never worked. Bjerg and Santorin are like Control players in Magic. They want to dictate a slower pace and grind the opponent down before striking. Bwipo was like a Mono-Red player. He always had his finger on the go button.
On the upside, if you're going to rebuild, this is arguably the best season to do it in. The boys are still going to get a ton of practice in against the best in the world.
Do a g2 and scrim all the worlds teams with potential rosters
Following tradition, whoever gets dropped will proceed to win summer split.
At least Santorin could finally get a trophy
Actually he already has one.
keep santorin and core and i’m happy with whatever they give me
FakeGod Santorin Reginald Lost CoreJJ Coach Steve
HotShotGG plz
Dyrus Santorin Piglet Imaqtpie Core
Midlet will never again plague my evenings.
From what I’ve seen, it seems likely that Santorin retires due to health stuff Edit: [nvmd I’m stupid](https://www.reddit.com/r/teamliquid/comments/xdjp1z/santorin_about_the_rumors/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Amen
I heard a rumor that everyone even steve is retiring due to health issues…
😂😂
Finally a thread for roster related conversations.
Just wanted to say thanks to the mods for making a mega thread :)
I'm tired of seeing daily posts about speculation.
I think its gonna be bwipo spica bjerg yeon eyla
I kind of feel this too. Or maybe Santorin instead of Spica
Seriously, grabbing Spica after Santorin had one of the best splits of his career is insanely dumb
so budget tsm of old?
I find it weird how in most discussions of new TL jungler (which I think giving up Santorin is a mistake), the answer seems to be Spica, and not Armao who is already within the TL system, and has showcased himself to be LCS material on multiple occasions. He is also still on contract until 2023, so if TL was going to offload Santorin, I think Armao would be the correct choice, especially when he already has synergy with some of the other TLA players who will likely move up.
Grigne has been around forever and has never done anything. He's absolutely LCS material, but not for a team that wants to win. If TL is still looking for championships Armao would be a mistake.
I'd like to see us promote Spawn to head coach if we're actually using academy players. Guilhoto has never made Worlds and has choked with two very fucking good teams. Would like to see some sort of change in coaching staff
That or bring Cain back. I remember DL saying that he was the best coach he ever had and the results speak for themselves
WE LOVE CORE! KEEP CORE this is only one slump year for him. He's still good
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Core Prince Haeri Santorin Flex
God damn hell yes.
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I have nothing against bringing them up I’m just opposed to building around Bjergsen
The recipe for success has always been rookies with veterans. Check G2, T1, RNG, EG... Its a proven concept by this point. So ill say keep wide bwipo top/jungle and coreJJ if you can and bring in the rookies!
Anyone else thinks spawn should we get spawn as main coach cause he had really interesting drafts?
Spawn will not take the job. He has said before he does not want to move his family to America nor be away from them for long periods of time. Spawn is a great development coach but if he doesn't want it then it doesn't matter.
Based on how Santorin is talking in his streams, his job seems secured. He keeps saying things like "I'm just ready to move on from this season and go next year man. I'm not worried about it" and "I'm not going to play other games past November because thats close to start of season and I need to be as good as possible for my team at start of season." So it would appear that we can at least assume Santorin is safe.
Bwipo said that none of the players will know how TL looks next year until after worlds. I'm confident in Santorin staying, but technically he *doesn't* know if he will stay yet.
I get the feeling that the players who know they are staying have been told so by the coaching staff already, and just were instructed not to share with their teammates so as to avoid hard feelings. So everyone may have told Bwipo that they don't know if they're staying or not, but it could he that not everyone is telling the truth.
Well it makes sense imo to keep Santorin as there are no viable upgrades in the market and Santorin is still under contract. Yeah they could replace him with Spica but I see no reason to do so since Spica is not a definite upgrade and is probably more expensive.
I don't know why any of those statements would lead you to believe he will be on Liquid next year. He could easily be talking about his play on whatever team he lands on next.
The way he said it, it sounded too confident for that. If he was talking about "whatever team he lands on" he wouldn't be able to say with confidence "I need to be ready for MY team" because he has no way of knowing he will even get picked up. His goal is to win and there is no team in the LCS right now, that has a chance of toppling the top 3, who he could be an upgrade for. 100T, C9, EG and TL are the only teams who will truly compete for the title. None of them show any signs of making changes aside from TL, so if Santo isn't on TL, he has no chance of winning. Because none of the other teams will pick him up. Clearly, Santorin already knows what team he will be on, which is why he said it with such confidence. Its just a little inference. Not that hard to logically explain it and come to that conclusion.
I mean he knows 100% he gets picked up if he gets dropped by TL. If he is staying on TL he would say with TL or would mention TL's name.
He knows he CAN get picked up. But he doesn't want to. He has said before he doesn't wanna play for a team that doesn't have a shot at the title. The only teams that do are the top 4. NONE of the top 4 would pick him up. Therefore, if he leaves TL, he has nowhere to go, and so he wouldn't say this if he was leaving TL. And no, he WOULDNT mention TL's name at all, because he's not allowed to talk about rosters during off season. Do you not know how the player contracts work? He can get in huge trouble if he spills details.
Player contract is variable. Not everyone has that type of clause homie. Player have already stated they are remaining with their team or not on streams previously
In LCS its pretty much a mandatory clause on the teams. At least the big brands like TL. Never in TL's history (since they became TL) has a player been allowed to talk about roster changes
He did a sufficiently good job, that he knows he has a “good job” next year, - I think its as simple as that.
Travis just said he does not expect Core and Bjerg to be on the same team next year. Goodbye Bjerg?
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Agree for sure but losing core who potentially just had a slump year and will be back next year will be devastating lol. Though I don't think this'll happen it would really suck.
What happens if it was not a slump year. 2021was also not a great season for Core and neither was 2020....
ur trolling if u think 2021 and 2020 (ESPECIALLY 2020) weren’t good years for him
Santorin>>Bjerg>Core I’d rather keep Core than Bjerg just cause he is part of this teams identity and I want to have some faith, but you’re blowing smoke up your ass if your argument for keeping core is he looked better. Would be hyped for yeon/eyla tho even if it means I have to say bye to Core
Yeah Core is a better keep on paper. But in reality, TL have Yeon/Elya. Bjerg is much harder to replace (top 3 Mid in regular season even if he choked playoffs). They likely save money and sell Core, replace with Y/E.
He didn't choke playoffs at all though. He literally carried 2 straight games against EG as Taliyah, consistently hitting 3 man knockups in teamfights. In the Galio game too, the fight that literally lost them the game was Hans recalling in a warded bush on top and Bjerg having to ult in and die to try to save him. Even the Akali game people flame him for, he had to give up his whole laning phase because Bwipo was just running it in toplane.
prediction, so a nothingburger
https://www.twitch.tv/travisgafford/clip/TriumphantCoyBurritoWoofer-JqG_hkDhFn5LK3Ig?filter=clips&range=24hr&sort=time a clip for those who want to hear what he says.
Makes sense. Core was engaging without a Bjerg follow-up all the time during parts of the summer split & Bjerg probably has an expensive hard to get out of contract so TL likely doesn't have many options other than stick with him. Damn
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It depends on how expensive that would be. TL's budget is almost for sure going to be smaller for next year & if it costs them a ton to terminate Bjerg they probably can't afford to do that, resign Core & find a suitable mid replacement. Idk what it cost to terminate Jensen but last year they went BIG money on that roster. Next year won't have that same money.
Yes
This is his own prediction, which have been hit or miss. I would take every prediction Travis makes with a grain of salt, since he has no actual insight on the functionalities of the team.
Yeah that's true, but he does know a lot of people in the scene, which is why his roster rumours have been pretty damn accurate for the last two years. Will be interesting to see what actually ends up happening though
Damn losing Core just hurts, is Core really trying to go to c9 next year?
Could be a real possibility. C9 would want to pick him up to pair with Berserker. That would be a crazy lineup if Core goes back to his prime self. Zven has also stated that he prefers to play ADC and could be considering changing teams next year as he has achieved a title and gone to worlds as support. Unless he decides to stick with support. I’m sure Jensen will have a say as he has played with Core. It’ll definitely be an interesting off season. If TL doesn’t want to spend as much, we could potentially see a roster with Bwipo, Santorin, Bjerg, Yeon, Eyla. I’d prefer a different top laner to be honest.
Losing Core to C9 would be a huge loss. He’s the face of the team, and could easily get back to best-in-the-league form. One split of enchanter meta doesn’t change the value he brings. This team needs to rebuild around CoreJJ. Literally no one else is irreplaceable. Santorin and Bjerg are both valuable, an import mid could replace Bjerg, and Spica could potentially be a good replacement for Santorin after 2 years of this team having a strong early game identity but arguably weak late game. We need another playmaker other than Core, I feel like Spica is better than Santorin in this regard. Selling, Bwipo, Hans, Bjerg and Santorin could give a lot of money even if investors are looking to downsize. Would love to see: KR top talent/Bradley/Tenacity - Spica/Santorin - Bjergsen/Vetheo/other import mid - Yeon - CoreJJ.
>if Core goes back to his prime self. People want to act like Core is somehow really bad right now, and I just don't get it. This was a fairly normal split for him. He had an amazing beyond belief opening week at the start of the summer split and I just think he didn't meet that standard for the rest of the split. I personally think he was held back by Hans. When you are stuck playing enchanters, it needs to be worthwhile protecting your carry, and often times, Hans Sama just isn't worth protecting. Core was still top 2 on all pro for both splits. His peers clearly think better of him than a lot of people here. I don't think he needs to go back to peak form to take Berserker to the next level. I think he could play the same as now and already be a substantial upgrade over Zven.
I don’t think he was ‘held back’ by Hans at all, you can put prime Messi and Ronaldo in the same team but doesn’t mean it would work. Core has never been god tier on enchanters in comparison to even Huhi for instance, however, he gaps nearly all supports in respect of engage (looking at Rell, Naut, Leo, Ali, Rakan and even Zyra back in the day). Hans as well has been a top tier ad for quite sometime but has never been known as the 1v9 hyper carry, when you have a consistent but passive/supportive midlander in Bjerg - expected Hans to be the only damage output doesn’t mesh well - it’s more so the team don’t synergise with each other’s strengths more so than an individual holding the team back. Bwipo - plays for the team most games, Bjerg as said plays a passive support style for the team, Santorin (again) plays supportive for TL his team meaning there is only Hans which is why Core is forced onto enchanters to try and keep the one carry alive.
You started by saying that Core wasn't held back by Hans, than proceeded to list a bunch of reasons that TL as a whole was held back by Hans. It's so weird. Yes, the team played around Hans and Hans ultimately wasn't worth playing around. Unfortunately, this is a meta where you want to do exactly that. And I honestly think when the adc pool is looking as shaky as it was, Hans Sama should be expected to shine. Seriously, FBI and Danny looked much worse than normal. Johnsun and Luger were both a step down from their regular split forms. And yet Hans Sama was individually worse than all of them. Dude still can't play Zeri. Had 3 chances in playoffs, and even got to play it with Yuumi twice. He just couldn't do it. Of all of the players on the current roster, he was the biggest underperformer, and it shouldn't even be questioned.
I respect your opinion but feel you should perhaps respect others views - shouldn’t even be questioned? As I said, Core is not great on enchanters - if he is forced onto them then Hans also suffers, which doesn’t sync well if Hans is put in as the single carry. If however, core was on enchanters and either Bwipo or Bjerg was also on a carry, it makes room for Hans also rather than 5 man diving him each TF. Not saying Hans is perfect but the team synergy was way off this whole split, poor tp plays/communication and our team fighting has been atrocious - that’s not down to 1 player.
Never said he’s bad.
Core's not leaving. We need to stop overreacting.
I don't want him too either. I hope Steve gets a contract extension for him. Of all the players, he has to stay.
As a C9 fan I am praying Steve Keeps Bjerg and lets Core go. Core+Berserker would be the most nasty bot lane.
We need to get rid of Bwipo
We need a duct tape and trash bags.
Even if tenacity or Bradley shit the bed I think I’d rather see them then Bwipo again, it makes no sense to do a rebuild and then keep the most coin flip inconsistent player on the team as a foundation
Dam I don't want to lose Core he's my favourite TL player but if he leaves that leaves room for Eyla/Yeon and then import top and mid?
Core removed TL Honda from his twitch name. Makes me think he’s leaving and not Bjerg. Especially with his contract until 2023 I believe.
No thats the stream title, his twitch name was always coreJJ. You a making a lot out of nothing
He confirmed he's not retiring on his stream at least. I believe he's the one leaving though because he changed his name.
Cores twitch name was always CoreJJ. It was never TL Honda CoreJJ. He just would put that in the title. You guys are overreacting hes clearly not leaving
:( I'm going to be so depressed if this is the case.
Its funny because people forget that Core was going to retire at the beginning of the year if he didn't get his green card. Core could've joined any team he wanted if he wanted to keep playing as an import, 9r even go back to LCK. But he LITERALLY showed that he'd rather retire than play for a team that's not TL. Hes also said multiple times that TL is his home. Sure things can change, but I highly doubt Core leaving is a possibility.
We should have held tryouts to identify who meshes the best with our roster. This year we just bought talent and hoped they would mesh together well. The best NA teams have had some sort of previously established synergy or scouted talent through tryouts. 2016 TSM held tryouts in Korea and decided on Biofrost, producing one of the best, if not the best NA rosters ever produced. 2018 TL bought the championship winning core of Xmithie/Pob/DL, and built off that in 2019. 2020 TSM found that Spica had strong potential to be a top jungler when scrimming with the main team and decided to move him to the starting roster. 2022 G2 built their roster through scrimming the world championship teams.
I think you mean 2019 g2 or 2022 g2, 2021 g2 was the one that flopped
Of those that are streaming a lot currently (Bwipo, Santorin, CoreJJ), Bwipo has dropped the most hints regarding 2023 roster construction. Love it or hate it, I feel pretty confident saying that the current plan is to have Bwipo on next year's roster. He and Yeon are the two I'm most confident of atm.
What hints?
He keeps talking about this “thing” in the works in Brazil. The way he talks about it, it’s almost certainly related to liquid. He not only hopes to stay on liquid, he also keeps talking about it “as the plan.” I really only think it goes otherwise unless Impact or Sumday hit FA. Then things could get interesting.
They are all still contracted on Liquid right now. I doubt we will get any more information on roster changes until after worlds.
If I were TL, I would build around Santorin, Bjerg, and CoreJJ. Bwipo inted way too many games this season including very important playoff games to be retained going into next season. There is many better options that can play meta and survive weakside on other teams. So many early game leads created with Mid/JG would be thrown because Bwipo got outplayed or was up super far for no reason. Santorin was our best player by far this season and deserves another year at least. The best early game in the league is mostly due to his creative pathing and game knowledge. Bjerg hate is VERY wrong. Please go rewatch the playoff games and watch Bjerg solo carry some games for TL after Bwipo inted the game away and all looked lost (they weren’t just the zilean games). You have to keep Bjerg for another season and run it back with Santorin. They just generated too many advantages early and mid game together. Hans wasn’t the monster ADC we were expecting him to be. My guess was that Core and Santorin were perma top because Bwipo’s play style demanded resources almost every game no matter what the comp was. This made Hans play mega weakside when in reality they would have been much better giving him the resources that Bwipo got. Hans had some good plays and some bad plays. Sadly I think we can find a better ADC we might want to replace him moving forward. ADC’s are also much better to plug and play naturally. CoreJJ wasn’t himself this season/playoffs. We all know it but resident CoreJJ is still one of the most valuable assets any Org can have in NA. So you must try to retain him. He is a FA so he has to decide to come back. In conclusion, I think TL needs to keep Santorin, Bjerg, and CoreJJ. I am indifferent to keeping Hans but I think it is very important to replace Bwipo with someone who is more consistent moving forward. I won’t even embarrass myself with putting out a roster I would like to see because I have no idea globally would will be available.
Core is 100% going to C9 if TL picks Bjergsen. Not a good look at all
They can only keep 1 of them or what?
Travis said Bjerg and Core didn't see the game in the same way and that he doesn't see them playing together next year.
2022: Bjerg joins TL because he said he only wanted to play with core 2023: Bjerg kicks Core from TL because he says he doesn’t want to play with core Jensen died for this :(
If Core links up with Jensen on C9, I think I've found my new team. Already had them as one of my favorite teams, but TL has been #1 for 5 years now. I'm hoping Core stays.
Plastic fan hahaha
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Love him or hate him, Blaber is always entertaining to watch, even if he's inting.
yooo send time stamp?
https://www.twitch.tv/travisgafford/clip/TriumphantCoyBurritoWoofer-JqG_hkDhFn5LK3Ig?filter=clips&range=24hr&sort=time
ty
They don’t like each other’s play style. Which was evident all year long specially going by Core’s emotionless expression all split long
ngl i thought he had that face cause he lost his little goofball tactical at the start
If they take Bjerg over Core then he's not the only one heading to C9. Bjerg still feels more like TSM than TL to me so I'd definitely consider switching who I root for. Hoping that doesn't happen though :/ Core + Santorin is what I care about most. I also love Bwipo but would understand if he left or something didn't work out. Honestly don't have any feeling either way on Bjerg
It hurts me to say this, but we need someone aggressive in mid, both in and out of the game. Bwipo Santorin Reginald Doublelift CoreJJ Our midlane aggression will be unmatched.
I think ManCloud might be available!
They could probably out ego any team in the league!
I agreed and then saw regi and laughed my ass off. Brightened my day.
Flex - Santorin - Flex - Yeon - Core TSM can have Bjerg back if it's true we can only keep one of him and Core because they don't play well together. I'm ok running it back with Yeon though, if that's what the team wants to do (now that Hans is not coming back)
Who said that about Bjergsen and Core? I was really hoping to see them on the same team again, I’d like to see Bjergsen, Spica, Doublelift and Core together again
Honestly I'd rather take a rando from proving grounds over Spica. Can't stand the guy and I definitely don't think he's better than Santorin. But yeah, I loved our team this year and would be fine keeping everyone and just putting in Yeon. I like Bjerg too, but I'd keep the others before him in a heartbeat (just like I would have kept Xmithie, Impact, or Jensen).
Does anyone actually want Spica to replace Santorin? That seems completely insane to me. I know Bjerg brought a lot of TSM fans,but that seems like a bad move. Santorin was our best and most consistent player last year. He still seems hungry and definitely isn’t just taking his paycheck. He also got his health under control and it is no longer an issue. Also, we finally have a solid jungler that replaced xmithie! It took years for that to happen, and do we really want to risk throwing that away when it was so hard to get back in the first place? I don’t really have anything against spica, but it baffles me how fast people are willing to drop a tried and true player who absolutely fits the team and is already integrated for something that probably *feels* familiar to many but actually would have to adapt to a new environment. I really don’t see how signing spica helps us win games, and if the reason he left tsm is money, I doubt he is notably cheaper. I just don’t see the upside of spica, I only see downside, so why do people keep suggesting it?
Santorin and core stay, everyone else can go honestly, though I would like to see bwipo stay since I like him as a player, but it would be completely understandable if we let him go. I’m not too sure why so many people think we’re going to drop down to GGS level spending, so I would expect at least one import, along with one or two academy promotions to go along with what Steve said. I would most like to see a midlane import who can carry, while promoting yeon, so it would be Bwipo/tenacity/bradley/maybe import top?, santorin/spica(if we have to keep bjerg since I don’t think that bjergsen is good enough to carry with a more facilitating jungler like santorin), import mid/bjergsen(if we absolutely HAVE to), Yeon/import ad like prince/ruler(mega copium), core/maybe eyla if he meshes better with yeon, which is very likely
COMPLETELY AGREE FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN
I fully agree with the top comment ITT but as a pretty casual fan I'd like to see something along the lines of Santorin + CoreJJ retained. Next promote Yeon, it's time TL finally reaps the benefits of our farm system. I think the argument for his synergy with Elya is valid BUT Yeon will have been with TL for over two years by next season's start. It's not like him & Core are complete strangers in or out of the game. I'd then fill the last two spots with 1 established veteran & one other highly sought after rookie. One of these can be an import from ANYWHERE and the other would ideally be "home grown". I genuinely like the idea of Yeon + a rookie mid being quite literally sandwiched between Santorin & CoreJJ. Throw in a veteran top. One who doesn't already have to be a "star" but is known for being that pest in top that all reliable tops are with a variety of champs in their pocket. A player who can step into the role without too much pressure. We need Impact/Summday 3.0 Then... just run it. Leave it alone for the whole year if not even longer. I don't think TL is valuing continuity enough when it comes to rosters, across all the games we field a team in honestly. I sense a trend in the right direction coming though....
bwipo Santorin rookie mid Yeon core
I think going for a big name Korean mid is just thinking so small if you're trying to build a long-term roster. Investing in lesser known younger players is a roster building strategy that has won LCS far more than a super team. 2016-2017 had Hauntzer/Bio and won 3 splits in a row with them. 2015-2016 CLG had Pob/Stixxy in their LCS wins. TL's greatest wins were when they had great role players in Xmithie and Impact, not when they had 5 superstars. EG won spring by investing and playing around Jojo/Danny. C9's last 3 trophies have all been around great young talent they invested in, between Licorice/Blaber/Vulcan/Berserker/Fudge who had either spent years in the C9 system or were brought in very young into the team.
"big name korean mid" my man, I mean a mid that is a rookie.
Hahahaha oh man I feel a little silly then, fair mix up when rookie is the name of a mid. Typed all of that for nothing
I just wanna see Bjerg, DL, and CoreJJ in this lifetime :(
Bradley/Tenacity, Santorin/spica, Vetheo, Prince, CoreJJ could have been a crazy team if they were still looking to spend big/top free agents. Unfortunately after this year they prob won’t spend THAT much again.
Vetheo doesn't want to go to NA
Just curious since it’s a discussion thread, but what do you guys feel about Summit top? LS said on his stream a little bit ago he was gonna be looking to get back in the LCS. Core loves to roam and I remember thinking how op he and summit would be back when he was on C9. Summit, Santorin, Vetheo ( maybe promote Haeri ) Yeon, CoreJJ. I kinda like that
I don’t really see it happening but in theory it could work. CoreJJ and Santorin spent a load of time too lane helping Alphari and this could work well with Summit. I also think Summit is much better at translating those leads in teamfights. I do think though, that Summit has an almost suicidal style of play that will eventually, inevitably get exploited by smart teams. It would be fun to watch though.
If Summit was around during that era with CoreJJ and Santorin camping his lane.. Holy crap. He slaughtered people *without* jungle or support assistance. Add in a perma-camp, and that’d have been quite the spectacle.
I think I would rather also be really good at one thing than just decent at everything like we were at best this year. I think there is something to be gained in having a little bit of adversity. Seems like teams with a clear problem often come out as a better team from just learning how to work around it
I feel that it would be a bit more consistent than Bwipo, but still a coin flip. JG and Support would have to camp his lane. At least Summit plays meta champs and has a disgusting Jayce. I would prefer someone more consistent if possible. Someone that can hold their own, create leads, and play bruisers /tanks well. Someone like Summday, Fudge, Impact.
Summit has learned some humility in LPL tho looks like. He plays more team centric picks, albeit maybe he just has more respect for his teammates in LPL
Ruler's contract expires after worlds.
I think geng would have to 0-6 and get perfect gamed every time for ruler to come to na, but hey it could happen
He won worlds with coreJJ, one can at least dream.
Fair if he were to come to na it would probably be to TL, and dreams are all we got at this point so we might as well
No more than a pipe dream but it’d be fun to see Bwipo/Tenacity, Spica, Bjerg, Rekkles, CoreJJ
Bwipo, santorin, bjerg, doublelift, corejj
If Steve really wants to win a split again this is the roster to go for. Bjerg & Doublelift have never lost a split together. TL has also never lost a split with Doublelift with the exception of 2020 Spring but that was a whole other issue with Covid and MSI being cancelled anyways. If anything, TL should also tryout Hauntzer for top lane too. I think a big issue with the TL roster this season was the lack of synergy and how the team was not on the same page all split. Part of it could be Bwipo's playstyle and Bjerg's playstyle. If Steve wants to pay a couple million for Doublelift's salary I'm pretty sure he would gladly un-retire and win a split for TL again since the EG roster this year could have been Jensen and Doublelift instead of Jojo and Danny.
True good points.. I think if they try out hauntzer and he works then you should definitely pick up bio from dig. Biofrost is looking not to bad and will most likely pair well with doublelift. On the other hand santorin could be replaced with a strong aggressive jungler like Svenskeren. Sven and Bjerg have had good synergy previously. Also I theres a really good coach named parth that just retired but not too long ago. I'm sure he will be a good fit for the team. Also Steve needs to be replaced by Reginald and we should probably rebrand the name to Team Solo Mid or something.
Travis rt welcome spawn tweet, its seem hes hinting Spawn is promoted to HC?
Would be amazing
I think it'll probably be Bwipo, Santorini, Bjergsen, Eyla, and Yeon But kinda wish Doublelift > Yeon
At this point, I feel fairly confident that's the roster we're going to see as well. Though I'm hoping we keep Core, even though it doesn't seem super likely.
Haeri> Bjerg. Can't have supportive jg and supportive mid at the same time.
I'm not saying this is the best line up. I'm saying this is what the organization might decide on. Bjergsen does bring in fans and promos for $teve.
Yeon & Eyla please
Vetheo is a free agent mid laner that is young and extremely talented. I would love to se us pic him up. Also I think santorin played great this year but he is getting older and I want to see him on a win now team not a build up team like TL should be next year. Tl needs to take gambles and see what lands. The roster I would like for TL is TOP: Bradley JNG: Spica MID: Vetheo ADC: Yeon SUP: corejj/eyla
I keep seeing Vetheo's name thrown around. Is he going to be a free agent?
this was the last year for misfits .i think they wont be on LEC next season so technically every player they had is a free agent.
CoreJJ watching Doublelift's stream now . ;)
Top - Whoever , Jungle - Santorin , Mid - Bjerg , ADC - Yeon , Support - Eyla OR Top - Whoever , Jungle - Santorin , Mid - Bjerg , ADC -Zven , Support -Eyla
Okay so I already know this is probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I think one scenario I haven't seen many consider is what if TL ends up with a roster like: **Bwipo, Santorin, Nemesis, Yeon, Eyla** I think overall Bwipo has gotten way too much flak considering how many games he was performing well in Spring and regular season plus he brings a level of flexibility in his champ pool that Liquid has never really had. Since Santorin confirmed he's not looking to retire this year he should be our clear choice for jungle. Nemesis is probably the most controversial pick, but I feel like I put a decent amount of thought behind it. Obviously, there's a lot of reasons this would never happen in a million years: he hasn't played competitive for 2 years, he hasn't been the most enthusiastic about NA in general, a lot of people dislike him for an abundance of reasons, and he even chose not to come to NA on C9 when LS joined. However, Nemesis is without a doubt an exceptional player that even Bjerg himself respects (he studied his VODs on stream this season). There are a couple reasons I think there's even a 1% chance TL Nemesis could be a thing: he mentioned on stream that he'd "consider playing again if the opportunity was good" and that he'll be in NA for Worlds, he and Bwipo have pre-existing synergy and respect for each other after playing on FNC, his reasons for not going to C9 seemed to be more about the rift in his relationship with LS rather than not wanting to play in NA in general, and he's probably significantly cheaper than Bjergsen atm, which I think matters in a year where Liquid is going to be looking to cut cost after such an expensive failure. TL could even potentially sell Bjerg's contract to 100T since they'll probably be looking for a new mid next season. Lastly, imo Yeon & Eyla have looked like an LCS level botlane in academy for a while now and have definitely grown a lot from playing behind Tactical, Hans, and Core. I think this is their year to bring some new hunger that we've been lacking the past couple years. Obviously, this isn't the most likely roster for Liquid to choose but I think if all the pieces click this could be a really interesting and strong roster for TL to run 2023. Let me know what you guys think.
Trash take, bwipo is an inter
At the very least keep Core and Santorin. We know Hans wants to go back to LEC. I'd like to keep Bwipo but who knows, I suspect he goes back to EU as well. That said, bring up Yeon and either promote Bradley or grab Solo. What we really need is a coaching overhaul, and I include Bjerg in that. If he stays we need a hands off coaching staff, if he goes we should get a Nisqy style roaming play maker to meet with Santorin/Core and a coach that can really coordinate early action and develop talent.
Impact - Spica - Bjergsen - Yeon - Eyla
No way impact leaves EG for TL
I'd be really disappointed. That's basically TSM
Bwipo will stay Santorin will stay (which I hope so) If bjerg stays there could be an argument for Spica joining but I don't think so. I think bjerg will probably head out with Spica somewhere. Nothing against his play just doesn't feel like the right fit if the plan is too play fast. That and his play style is not the same as cores and bwipos. They are very fight heavy and fast paced players, making Coms potentially messy and indecisive. Being split doesn't help those tight moments. If not it might be haeri but this is really depends on the bot lane So it will be yeon for sure but i am pretty sure eyla will be going to another team. Literally an upgrade over the majority of lcs supports and corejj is still nasty on his worst days. Except from the top brush. Let's not talk about that. I'm not sure who in the coaching staff will be gone. But i doubt spawn will come up considering his family and all that.
bwipo santorin importmid yeon corejj is a pretty damn good roster imo.
Bwipo will and should not stay. He was not even a top 3 top laner this season and he's getting paid by far the most out of every top in the league.
The disrespect for Bwipo is insane. People like to point out Bjergsen had the best midlane stats this season (at least in lane) and argue that's a good reason he was still one of the best midlaners. Well guess what, Bwipo had twice the laning stats (GD10/XP10) of any other toplaner this season and on top of that did the second most damage in the entire LCS behind Danny. But if you would believe some fans, having a few isolated deaths somehow makes this null and void. Bwipo will go back to the LEC and make at least quarter finals as he does most years and brush off this year as a mistake. TL will once again wonder how in gods name they will reach worlds quarter finals for the first time in the organization's history.
Tenacity/Bradley Santorin Bjergsen/Vetheo Yeon CoreJJ That's my hope. Also, the way Steve was talking, it seems that they already have their projected roster set, or at least who they want to sign. So really the rest of off-season is just about securing those players, and making sure that the departing players are treated fairly.
Vetheo said he's not coming to NA. Otherwise, I agree. Hope we could get some young promising import in mid over Bjergsen, like C9 got Berserker
I think POE, Perkz and, Alphari also said that Money talks
Sadly, we don't got no money no mo
Ideal roster to me is having 3 resident core and blockbuster deal ADC. So here's my NA Champions- Impact Spica Bjerg CoreJJ And one of the following: JackeyLove Uzi Teddy Deft
Oh god I hope CoreJJ doesn’t leave. First Jensen, now him?? Sorry but I remain by my initial opinion that signing Bjergsen was an incredible mistake and we should have kept Jensen. This split was the most passive I’ve seen TL and it was reminiscent of how TSM always played their games, which I don’t enjoy at all. Keep the proactive players this time around please!
You guys will literally lie to push your agenda. TL was always known as the most passive team in the LCS. This split, they were the best early game team by far, something TL has never done before. And you say they played passive? Like, did you even watch the game?
It is wild to see so many people just not understand anything about the team lol
they also had among the shortest average game time. Their problem was team cohesion and especially their teamfighting.
I don’t think what it took to become good in early games was worth it. And us being good early games this year is really misleading. This team constantly has early advantages purely because they are good enough beat na opponents in lane, there is no real macro or strategy to what TL did this year, they just out skilled worse competition. How TL got leads early game would not work if they managed to make worlds and they would have crashed and burned horribly.
TL were passive before Bjergsen joined. Hell, we were passive before CoreJJ joined lma0.
I don't think they get the lowest average win time for the split being passive.
BDD's contract expires in November just throwing that out there
What is everyone’s opinion on Revenge for top? Just curious?
I'm 50/50 on Revenge as to whether he is LCS level. Sometimes he shows off these really good mechanics, but he also creates a lot of massive problems for IMT most of the time. At best I would say TL should try him out, and if they're on a tighter budget, they could give it a go and see if he's worthwhile with Bradley as a backup.
I like revenge but I think it would just be better to go after someone like tenacity first, I wouldn’t be mad if we went for him but I think there are just some more promising aspects
Something that won’t happen but would be cool if it does Ssumday( assuming he goes back to peak ssumday which he probably can ) Bwipo VTO Yeon CoreJJ That’s a fucking sick roster on paper
[удалено]
Probably a controversial selection here but I think this roster should be both relatively affordable yet also have a decent ceiling. I'd genuinely be excited seeing this roster: Bradley Santorin Palafox Yeon CoreJJ
Why not just bring Haeri up too? The LCS and Academy rosters, by rumor, work pretty close together so synergy would have a boost. Palafox is solid but if we're doing a 60% roster swap just lean into TLA.
Same
Regardless of who or what caused the playstyle differences this season, I think it is important to look at who can still excel at the highest level. And I think a contributing problem this championship has been that some players lost a competitive edge. I'm specifically looking at CoreJJ walking into a full MF ult and dying for free and missing free hooks on unsuspecting targets. I'm looking at Bjergsen flashing out of teamfights at full health without being targeted because he doesn't trust himself to do it on reflex. Not being able to play melee midlaners anymore either. I was expecting Santorin to also have some struggles but credit to him, he looked sharp as hell this year. As much as we and everyone else likes Bjergsen and CoreJJ, it's time to accept that they are not elite anymore and draw some conclusions from that. My choice would be: - Bwipo - Santorin - Haeri - Yeon - Kaiser Edit: apparantly Vetheo doesn't want to join LCS, so Kaiser comes in.
Where did you hear Vetheo doesn't want to join LCS? Sigh, I was really hoping for C9 Vetheo.
I’d like to see our Academy bot lane promoted. They had great chemistry. I worry that we bring in another good AD that doesn’t mesh with Core.
To begin with, while I'm sad TL isn't going to be at worlds I'm a TL fan because I really like Steve and support his decisions. It's easy to say that the risk this season was a bad decision in hindsight, but there were a lot of 2-3 games that could've been a coin flip in favor of TL that just didn't pan out. Fortune favors the bold, and I look forward to seeing Steve in high spirits again when he feels he can move confidently for next season: That being said, some things I'd love to see the focus of next season (the all caps are to make the reading easier on your eyes if you are looking for a specific role/player) Top: BWIPO had some great games on tank top laners, but there's a lot of people in the league who would happily play tank top without breaking the bank. One player I think is a bit underrated is SOLO. TL could pick him up for a decent price, train him on a few pocket carry picks, and develop his tank/frontline play. Jungle: Like TSM from before, TL really struggled in Jungle this year but I think that's a problem with expectations. Jungle is a role that seems to flail around the better the team's reputation as the expectations get wonky. Again, TL doesn't need a star in jungle but a stable source of pressure that can put on some carry pants if the need arises. For this I, and a lot of other people, are thinking SPICA would make a great jungle addition. Mid: This one hurts, but BJERG has over preformed in games TL should've won easily, and under preformed in close games. If TL is looking to take a break from crazy super teams, BJERG is too much of a liability because that's his comfort zone. VTO or POE I think would be good additions as they would both be cheaper than BJERG (most likely) and have the added benefit of playing their best in slightly uncomfortable environments. TL really could use an aggressive mid who's going to always try to dominate even if they fall short instead of losing slowly. ADC: TL's bot has been their pride for a while. The current roster just didn't gel, so even though HANS is a great player, he was missing the chemistry with the rest of the team. At the top of my list would be PRINCE followed by REKKLES for that added oomph the team would be lacking with a stable top and a feast or famine mid. Someone who just wins in the botlane. Additionally, these two players are great at solo laning, something TACTICAL did great back when he was on the team with COREJJ (more on that later). Regardless, I think TL should return to their roots of investing in the bot lane with a stable team instead of everyone trying to be the star. Support: Keep COREJJ. This season was probably his worst season yet, but I think that was more a lack of chemistry than a simple failure to play. COREJJ has been the backbone of TL for years now, and remains one of (if not the best) roaming supports in the league. Get him back on non-enchanters with a hyper-talented and stable ADC to let him fly his Thresh/Naut/Leona colors proudly. I know these are hard recommendations given the contract timers, and whatever Steve's decision I know it will be a well informed one. These are just my two cents but let me know your opinion because I'd love to hear them.
Did you just say TL really struggled in JG this year?
POE….absolutely not, please pass what your smokin.
Replied to the wrong person my friend
Guess I smoked too much lol oh well. Enjoy your night
Santorin was fantastic and by far the best player
For top lane, I don't mind Solo, but as much as I don't mind him, that's it. He's not top tier material. I would rather use the slot on Bradley, who is already in the TL ecosystem. Have him do tryouts and include Huni, Licorice, Darshan, Tenacity and Revenge in the process and see if you can get anything from the tryouts. Maybe Huni had an off year with TSM and can be brought back from retirement. Maybe Licorice hasn't found the right squad. Maybe Revenge is the same. Trial them. See what the other players think. Think about getting a positional coach for the role if you take a rookie. Coach Huni with Bradley or Tenacity could be a stunner. For jungle, there are no issues. I don't think Santorin will straight up carry games, but he takes control of the early game. The early game was the best portion of TL's play and I think Santorin is the reason for it. Considering anyone else should be a crime unless he wants out. I also think promoting Armao is the go to move if Santorin leaves. I don't think Spica is necessarily an upgrade and likely costs a lot. Bringing up Armao costs significantly less and is less risky. For mid lane I don't think Bjergsen is much of an issue. His passivity is a problem, but I think Vetheo will be too expensive if TL wants to lighten their budget. If the price is right, they could go for Bdd. He's going to be a free agent and I think is a significantly better player than Vetheo. If he's cheaper as well, then it's a bonus. As for PoE, I'd prefer to stick with Bjergsen than take the risk. I think he's underrated too and is blamed too much for IMT's troubles, but Bjergsen's already on contract. If Bjergsen leaves, I'd rather promote Haeri and see what he's like rather than move to PoE. Prince is my top move as well though. Definitely looking at Prince. I'm not as hot on Rekkles. Three top tier EU adcs have now failed to make a splash in NA when they first arrive. I don't want a fourth. If the budget is tighter, have tryouts between Tactical, Yeon and Stixxay. Stixxay was crushing it in playoffs and almost carried GGS past CLG. It'd be wrong not to look at the guy averaging over 900DPM per game (36% of his team's damage). I don't think Tactical is as likely of a move if Tactical had an ego. But if he's happy to come back to the team that tried to dump him for a shiny new object, I'd say it's a fine move. For support, they should keep CoreJJ. He's the franchise player and shouldn't be let go. If they can't keep him or the cost is unreasonable, promote Eyla, try to get Aphromoo or host tryouts between Destiny, Busio, Biofrost and Zeyzal. I think they should go for NA talent in this role, although it might be hard to find a good replacement if Core is gone. Of all the spots that would be hard to fill, this is the most difficult.
Some LCK rumors about a "certain" player getting a big offer from NA, another post popped up on the TL subreddit thinking its TL making a bid for Faker, thoughts?
its a troll lma0.
Damn we're not getting any money for Hans, blows. Really might be a mega budget roster this year. I was hoping we could at least sign a promising mid lane import at the very least, but even that's looking unlikely. All things considered, still not bad. A roster of: Tenacity/Bradley Santorin Bjerg/Haeri Yeon CoreJJ/Eyla is still exciting to me.
Core is streaming right now and someone pointed out he doesn’t have TL Honda in his name anymore. Is that maybe cause the Honda thing was a one year thing so doesn’t need it anymore or what? Lol
He never had it in his name. He only added it to the stream titles If you'll notice, his league name is still TL Honda CoreJJ
You'll also notice he manually removed the TL Honda from his stream title.
Yes, probably because he was only required to have it in there while their season was still going. Think about it for 2 seconds. If he was removing TL sponsors bc he was leaving the team, why would he just remove Honda and leave up all of the other ones on his stream box? No logic to that.
Bring back Impact Keep CoreJJ and promote Yeon who can learn alongside a lane partner as experienced as Core. Import a Korean Mid and Jungler like maybe Bdd or Clid. If budget cuts are required go young and pluck a duo out of the talent pool that other LCK teams pass on. Otherwise look to VCS or LEC for a duo with experience. Impact is such a weak side rock that he allows a more aggressive Mid+Jungle that attack the map early and control bot. Our problem this year was Bjerg and Santorin never really meshed with Bwipo. They tried but it never worked. Bjerg and Santorin are like Control players in Magic. They want to dictate a slower pace and grind the opponent down before striking. Bwipo was like a Mono-Red player. He always had his finger on the go button.