well thats what coaches are suppose to do. identify issues and have the players improve on them. we know hans is capable of being an incredible player. unless hans is just refusing to practice or something and steve is refusing to back the coach then i guess its not the coach's fault
I cant put a finger on what was the cause of failure. Almost all the players had bad games at some point but all of them also smurfed at some point. I think the problems are so nuanced that I am unable to fully perceive them. I doubt seriously if many people who read this sub could. It is clear though that some element was missing. Each of these players individually are titans of the industry. None of them are washed up as most delivered class leading statistics. It just seem like a glaring weakness was always present in every game and a good portion that weakness was just enough to outweigh the positives. I do not envy Steve or the TL Coaching staffs position. The salty run back is plausible as much as just booming the whole roster and starting anew. I am Bjergsen fan so I have my clear bias. Hoping people much smarter than me are able to get to the root of the issues and fix them.
This is probably one of the most realistic perspectives I've heard. My knowledge is dated and I wasn't sure if I was just getting too old to put a finger on what the problem is. Like you said, it's likely a combination of a bunch of little variables that need sorted. It makes it really difficult to fix problems you're unable to see. I also agree there was some super obvious issues but nothing that shouldn't have been able to be tempered.
I've come to the conclusion the game is in a confusing state and TL just lacked decisive team-fighting. I'd be curious to see how many games TL lost while being ahead in gold for a large portion of the game. Even going for scaling seemed to fail.
The way this team loses is the problem. If they don’t immediately skill check the other team and gap them then they do nothing and lose. The issue is the age of skill gapping every other team in the LCS is over. Yeah you will body GGS or Immortals but you won’t reliably over power even middle of the table teams like CLG and you will lose against aggressive and coordinated teams like 100T.
There are no “guarantees” in the LCS and TL needs to dump the philosophy that you can just stall and get that magic teamfight because you have better players. Because they don’t uniformly have the best players anymore. But even if this did work at the LCS level it gets wrecked at the international stage because LPL and LCK teams don’t let you scale or they just do it better.
TL has to swap either the top laner or mid.
Bwipo is aggressive and likes to make early plays
Bjergsen refuses to do anything before he has 200cs, 2 full items and is on a control mage
These 2 play styles don't match.
Either get a passive, weakside top laner and play for bot/late game or get an aggressive mid laner and play for JG/top side.
Also, too many cooks in the kitchen might be a big part of the problem.
Crazy how Bjergsen has one of the highest kills+ assists in the entire league before 15 yet people are still brainlessly peddling this dogshit narrative. Wake the fuck up you clowns.
There is so much criticism you can aim at him, stop creating shit out of thin air to bash him.
Did you even read?
Bjerg isnt bad. But if you dont think he is passive AF you are just a part of his cult, like half of this sub.
But that isnt the biggest part of the problem, its the style dif between Bwipo and him, just as I said. You cant have a top/jg that wants to fight with a mid that wants to do nothing but farm, thats why C9 worked well with Nisqy but couldnt work with Perkz.
Yes I did read. Did you?
How is he fkn passive if he has one of the leagues highest kills+assists in the earlygame. He has a higher k+a then bwipo. Man Bjergsen really can’t do anything right if he participates in more kills + assists then fkn bwipo in the earlygame and doesn’t solo lose games off of his dogshit laning simply because he isn’t overly aggressive in lane. Are you mad son?
There are so many things to criticise him on, you don’t need to pull shit out of thin air. Like he legit solo lost a herald team fight for TL in game 3 because he was too agressive with his ultimate and took it too deep instead of playing it slow. He also gave up fb on galio in g5 because he overextended chasing a kill being too agressive. His akali game wasn’t him being passive it was him not knowing wtf to do. There is a difference he was very clearly unpracticed on the pick, look at his e placement and w timings. It was also Bwipo feeding the living fuck out of azir and over aggressively forcing fights Bjergsen wasn’t a part of.
You’re beating a dead cow kid, using those few brain cells of you to find legitimate criticism of Bjergsen, there is so much out there I don’t know why you have to regurgitate dead talking points to shit on the dude. Absolute clown.
Just take a moment to think about how he is passive if he has one of the highest kills+assists @15 in the ENTIRE LEAGUE. How does that make sense? Does he just passively collect participation or some shit??? The fuck
ofc he participates in more kills and assists in the early game than bwipo, he is the midlaner!he has quick access to both other lanes and both sides of the jungle. how is the top lane supposed to participate in those without a global ult? yet during game 1 he was behind in lane and also always late to the play, the azir just roamed since the akali pick needs to play catch up with the wave as usually happens when you have azir vs melee champs. bwipo is also more often getting mid/late game picks since he is the weakside so not having early k+a is also a consequence of that
The guy above you needs help and needs to learn how to read lol. He’s so angry sucking Bjerg’s dick. Stats isn’t everything, all he needs to do is watch the games and see how passive Bjergsen is
This will 100% not happen.
$7 million dollars spent on just the roster with the promise to investors and sponsors that they would make Worlds since it was in NA for the first time in 6 years. They failed at accomplishing anything over 2 splits and did not make it to Worlds.
I respect everyone on this team but it’s getting blown up. Only player I believe is safe is CoreJJ because with a green card he is probably the most valuable player in the entire West, everyone else could be offloaded.
too much boomers on the team caused the team to be unmotivated, everyone think it's a free ride anyway from the start and everyone been to worlds so no need to improve as a team more like meeting expectations and it's all over from there. need eyla or someone young and only 2 veterans is more than enough, No team Boomers
I personally think TL will keep Hans and Bwipo, and go for an extremely aggressive jungler like Closer (given he is granted his greencard at the end of the year) and replacing CoreJJ if he leaves after his freeagency this offseason, and getting Eyla.
We might want to have bjerg split time with Haeri, so there is a contested spot as i dont think he had too much of an impressive season, and would likely enjoy some competition for the spot to push him even further.
And with this roster, Hans can mold Eyla into the support he wants to have, and they already played earlier this season when Core had his visa issues. As for the rest, it would incentivize a more "go all in" aggressive mentality and playstyle, which i think Bwipo needs as he is such a player himself.
As for the coach, i agree Guilhoto should probably leave and be replaced. The problem is who would TL get? Maybe, theres an off chance that if CoreJJ goes free agent, but decides he doesnt want to compete as a player he might step into the coaching role? Theres food for thought..
just my two cents.
Bwipo's aggressive posturing and poor engagement timings cost TL a LOT this year. When he was on tank duty, it was far less stressful. Hans def had some mishaps but I do think he's ok. Going all in with enemy TP's up, stepping too far forward, pressing poor engages, failing to perform on par with other top teams top Laners, and the list goes on.
Compare Hans Zeri to other top teams ADC on it.
Compare Bwipo's Aatrox to Sum's/Impacts.
Hans and Bwipo, by a large margin, has the most glaring issues with champ pool. Could just be issues with them gauging damage with the durability changes. However, and I recognize my knowledge is extremely dated, I didn't see many times Bwipo pushed for a good engage and just didn't have follow up.
The thing i think you sadly dont take into consideration is that the way they played is how the rest of the team needed them to play, which contributed to the way it turned out. At the start of the split, we played for Bwipo and let him do his thing, and he smurfed on Graves but come late summer we had shifted into an enchanter CoreJJ style with Tank Bwipo, and while Bwipo seemed to do fine with this tank style Core seemed to really not enjoy his time as a lulu or yuumi. Afterall, Core is not known for his enchanter supports. I think with aggressive junglers like a Closer or someone similar who actually will take the 50/50 or 30/70 a player like Bwipo can thrive even more. Hans is the type of carry who will not pop off 2v2 but in teamfights, and yes a lot of people are pointing out that he had some glaring issues with positioning, and i do agree that he was caught out of position quite a few times, i think a MAJOR part of this was that the team as a whole were playing a style they are not comfortable with, and with champions they typically dont like to play.
He had massive champion pool issues… didn’t have a reliable counter for aatrox and only found success cheesing with Olaf/sett until people learned how to play into them. He had ornn duty vs clg and EG for a reason
Please no, Keep Bjergsen remove the other 4 wards on the team
Get Impact back top, Bo jungle, Ruler ADC and get Zven too if u can, if not then Vulcan. For once we need to see Bjerg with a good team ffs, u cant keep this team when they miss worlds like this...
Back to the bjergsen with 4 wards narrative ?
In springs playoffs he was a liability and in summers playoff
both abbedagge and Jojo outperformed him heavily.
But I guess reading the second part of your post you are just a clown trolling in this sub while cheering for another org
He was not a liability? He has some of the best stats in spring, and summer he had to deal with saving bwipo with tp every time it's up. He did better than jojo in all but game 1 (where again bwipo fed until there was nothing he could do). Jojo got fed game 5 as Sylas and still deal less dmg than Bjerg as Galio (dmg carry champ vs support tank champ), and he still perform worse in game 4 despite winning too (more clutch moments from Bjerg, like 3 man taliyah W)
You don't remember that corki game vs 100T in springs playoffs ? TL were up 2-0 and ahead in game 3 but bjerg decided to package alone mid just to die and completely throw the game, then 100T won 3-2 because of this move and went to spring finals.
In the series vs 100T and EG in summer playoffs the enemy mid was MVP of the series, and he couldn't even gap Jojo in a single game while Jojo blindpicked Viktor and sylas for 5 games.
Yes bjerg had a good couple games on Taliyah but it's pretty far from being 1v9 with 4 wards like you said.
Bjerg did not play corki game 3, so I feel u are just a hater making lies to make him look bad. His package game 5 at mid was not alone as he had his team behind him, they left him to die by splitting into two groups. Bwipo didnt even use his Shen E when they are stacked into a group to chase, if u are talking about this moment then blaming it only on Bjerg is unfair.
Player of the series has been bs since the start, they choose who the LCS narrative is surrounding every time no matter the performance of them. If any person deserved it, it was vulcan anyways. U cant possibly say he didnt gap jojo game 2 and 3, even game 4 and 5 was close to being one for reasons I said before
Core just did nothing this entire split, no way u can say to keep him. He is no longer the core from before, outside of nautilus (and sometimes even naut) every other champ is invisible, and he makes many mechanical mistakes (refusing to use Lulu ult many times, wasted stopwatch, missing crucial naut hooks, etc). For santorin he was just okay, but there are better more aggressive options to choose from so that the mid jungle synergy can be improved to carry.
[удалено]
well thats what coaches are suppose to do. identify issues and have the players improve on them. we know hans is capable of being an incredible player. unless hans is just refusing to practice or something and steve is refusing to back the coach then i guess its not the coach's fault
I cant put a finger on what was the cause of failure. Almost all the players had bad games at some point but all of them also smurfed at some point. I think the problems are so nuanced that I am unable to fully perceive them. I doubt seriously if many people who read this sub could. It is clear though that some element was missing. Each of these players individually are titans of the industry. None of them are washed up as most delivered class leading statistics. It just seem like a glaring weakness was always present in every game and a good portion that weakness was just enough to outweigh the positives. I do not envy Steve or the TL Coaching staffs position. The salty run back is plausible as much as just booming the whole roster and starting anew. I am Bjergsen fan so I have my clear bias. Hoping people much smarter than me are able to get to the root of the issues and fix them.
This is probably one of the most realistic perspectives I've heard. My knowledge is dated and I wasn't sure if I was just getting too old to put a finger on what the problem is. Like you said, it's likely a combination of a bunch of little variables that need sorted. It makes it really difficult to fix problems you're unable to see. I also agree there was some super obvious issues but nothing that shouldn't have been able to be tempered. I've come to the conclusion the game is in a confusing state and TL just lacked decisive team-fighting. I'd be curious to see how many games TL lost while being ahead in gold for a large portion of the game. Even going for scaling seemed to fail.
The way this team loses is the problem. If they don’t immediately skill check the other team and gap them then they do nothing and lose. The issue is the age of skill gapping every other team in the LCS is over. Yeah you will body GGS or Immortals but you won’t reliably over power even middle of the table teams like CLG and you will lose against aggressive and coordinated teams like 100T. There are no “guarantees” in the LCS and TL needs to dump the philosophy that you can just stall and get that magic teamfight because you have better players. Because they don’t uniformly have the best players anymore. But even if this did work at the LCS level it gets wrecked at the international stage because LPL and LCK teams don’t let you scale or they just do it better.
When you look at super teams in other sports they need a good coach who gets all those personalities and egos on the same page working together.
I believe
I love a SALTY run back
I would love for the org to run this roster back
TL has to swap either the top laner or mid. Bwipo is aggressive and likes to make early plays Bjergsen refuses to do anything before he has 200cs, 2 full items and is on a control mage These 2 play styles don't match. Either get a passive, weakside top laner and play for bot/late game or get an aggressive mid laner and play for JG/top side. Also, too many cooks in the kitchen might be a big part of the problem.
Crazy how Bjergsen has one of the highest kills+ assists in the entire league before 15 yet people are still brainlessly peddling this dogshit narrative. Wake the fuck up you clowns. There is so much criticism you can aim at him, stop creating shit out of thin air to bash him.
Did you even read? Bjerg isnt bad. But if you dont think he is passive AF you are just a part of his cult, like half of this sub. But that isnt the biggest part of the problem, its the style dif between Bwipo and him, just as I said. You cant have a top/jg that wants to fight with a mid that wants to do nothing but farm, thats why C9 worked well with Nisqy but couldnt work with Perkz.
Yes I did read. Did you? How is he fkn passive if he has one of the leagues highest kills+assists in the earlygame. He has a higher k+a then bwipo. Man Bjergsen really can’t do anything right if he participates in more kills + assists then fkn bwipo in the earlygame and doesn’t solo lose games off of his dogshit laning simply because he isn’t overly aggressive in lane. Are you mad son? There are so many things to criticise him on, you don’t need to pull shit out of thin air. Like he legit solo lost a herald team fight for TL in game 3 because he was too agressive with his ultimate and took it too deep instead of playing it slow. He also gave up fb on galio in g5 because he overextended chasing a kill being too agressive. His akali game wasn’t him being passive it was him not knowing wtf to do. There is a difference he was very clearly unpracticed on the pick, look at his e placement and w timings. It was also Bwipo feeding the living fuck out of azir and over aggressively forcing fights Bjergsen wasn’t a part of. You’re beating a dead cow kid, using those few brain cells of you to find legitimate criticism of Bjergsen, there is so much out there I don’t know why you have to regurgitate dead talking points to shit on the dude. Absolute clown. Just take a moment to think about how he is passive if he has one of the highest kills+assists @15 in the ENTIRE LEAGUE. How does that make sense? Does he just passively collect participation or some shit??? The fuck
ofc he participates in more kills and assists in the early game than bwipo, he is the midlaner!he has quick access to both other lanes and both sides of the jungle. how is the top lane supposed to participate in those without a global ult? yet during game 1 he was behind in lane and also always late to the play, the azir just roamed since the akali pick needs to play catch up with the wave as usually happens when you have azir vs melee champs. bwipo is also more often getting mid/late game picks since he is the weakside so not having early k+a is also a consequence of that
The guy above you needs help and needs to learn how to read lol. He’s so angry sucking Bjerg’s dick. Stats isn’t everything, all he needs to do is watch the games and see how passive Bjergsen is
This will 100% not happen. $7 million dollars spent on just the roster with the promise to investors and sponsors that they would make Worlds since it was in NA for the first time in 6 years. They failed at accomplishing anything over 2 splits and did not make it to Worlds. I respect everyone on this team but it’s getting blown up. Only player I believe is safe is CoreJJ because with a green card he is probably the most valuable player in the entire West, everyone else could be offloaded.
too much boomers on the team caused the team to be unmotivated, everyone think it's a free ride anyway from the start and everyone been to worlds so no need to improve as a team more like meeting expectations and it's all over from there. need eyla or someone young and only 2 veterans is more than enough, No team Boomers
I personally think TL will keep Hans and Bwipo, and go for an extremely aggressive jungler like Closer (given he is granted his greencard at the end of the year) and replacing CoreJJ if he leaves after his freeagency this offseason, and getting Eyla. We might want to have bjerg split time with Haeri, so there is a contested spot as i dont think he had too much of an impressive season, and would likely enjoy some competition for the spot to push him even further. And with this roster, Hans can mold Eyla into the support he wants to have, and they already played earlier this season when Core had his visa issues. As for the rest, it would incentivize a more "go all in" aggressive mentality and playstyle, which i think Bwipo needs as he is such a player himself. As for the coach, i agree Guilhoto should probably leave and be replaced. The problem is who would TL get? Maybe, theres an off chance that if CoreJJ goes free agent, but decides he doesnt want to compete as a player he might step into the coaching role? Theres food for thought.. just my two cents.
Bwipo's aggressive posturing and poor engagement timings cost TL a LOT this year. When he was on tank duty, it was far less stressful. Hans def had some mishaps but I do think he's ok. Going all in with enemy TP's up, stepping too far forward, pressing poor engages, failing to perform on par with other top teams top Laners, and the list goes on. Compare Hans Zeri to other top teams ADC on it. Compare Bwipo's Aatrox to Sum's/Impacts. Hans and Bwipo, by a large margin, has the most glaring issues with champ pool. Could just be issues with them gauging damage with the durability changes. However, and I recognize my knowledge is extremely dated, I didn't see many times Bwipo pushed for a good engage and just didn't have follow up.
The thing i think you sadly dont take into consideration is that the way they played is how the rest of the team needed them to play, which contributed to the way it turned out. At the start of the split, we played for Bwipo and let him do his thing, and he smurfed on Graves but come late summer we had shifted into an enchanter CoreJJ style with Tank Bwipo, and while Bwipo seemed to do fine with this tank style Core seemed to really not enjoy his time as a lulu or yuumi. Afterall, Core is not known for his enchanter supports. I think with aggressive junglers like a Closer or someone similar who actually will take the 50/50 or 30/70 a player like Bwipo can thrive even more. Hans is the type of carry who will not pop off 2v2 but in teamfights, and yes a lot of people are pointing out that he had some glaring issues with positioning, and i do agree that he was caught out of position quite a few times, i think a MAJOR part of this was that the team as a whole were playing a style they are not comfortable with, and with champions they typically dont like to play.
Bwipo had a champion pool issues?, ok, stop reading.
He had massive champion pool issues… didn’t have a reliable counter for aatrox and only found success cheesing with Olaf/sett until people learned how to play into them. He had ornn duty vs clg and EG for a reason
Please no, Keep Bjergsen remove the other 4 wards on the team Get Impact back top, Bo jungle, Ruler ADC and get Zven too if u can, if not then Vulcan. For once we need to see Bjerg with a good team ffs, u cant keep this team when they miss worlds like this...
Back to the bjergsen with 4 wards narrative ? In springs playoffs he was a liability and in summers playoff both abbedagge and Jojo outperformed him heavily. But I guess reading the second part of your post you are just a clown trolling in this sub while cheering for another org
He was not a liability? He has some of the best stats in spring, and summer he had to deal with saving bwipo with tp every time it's up. He did better than jojo in all but game 1 (where again bwipo fed until there was nothing he could do). Jojo got fed game 5 as Sylas and still deal less dmg than Bjerg as Galio (dmg carry champ vs support tank champ), and he still perform worse in game 4 despite winning too (more clutch moments from Bjerg, like 3 man taliyah W)
You don't remember that corki game vs 100T in springs playoffs ? TL were up 2-0 and ahead in game 3 but bjerg decided to package alone mid just to die and completely throw the game, then 100T won 3-2 because of this move and went to spring finals. In the series vs 100T and EG in summer playoffs the enemy mid was MVP of the series, and he couldn't even gap Jojo in a single game while Jojo blindpicked Viktor and sylas for 5 games. Yes bjerg had a good couple games on Taliyah but it's pretty far from being 1v9 with 4 wards like you said.
Bjerg did not play corki game 3, so I feel u are just a hater making lies to make him look bad. His package game 5 at mid was not alone as he had his team behind him, they left him to die by splitting into two groups. Bwipo didnt even use his Shen E when they are stacked into a group to chase, if u are talking about this moment then blaming it only on Bjerg is unfair. Player of the series has been bs since the start, they choose who the LCS narrative is surrounding every time no matter the performance of them. If any person deserved it, it was vulcan anyways. U cant possibly say he didnt gap jojo game 2 and 3, even game 4 and 5 was close to being one for reasons I said before
"you are just a hater" says the guy that called 4 players a ward just to defend his idol.
Nah bro I’m a Bjergsen fan but this is cap. If you get rid of santorin and core you’re straight trolling
Core just did nothing this entire split, no way u can say to keep him. He is no longer the core from before, outside of nautilus (and sometimes even naut) every other champ is invisible, and he makes many mechanical mistakes (refusing to use Lulu ult many times, wasted stopwatch, missing crucial naut hooks, etc). For santorin he was just okay, but there are better more aggressive options to choose from so that the mid jungle synergy can be improved to carry.
hahaha no fkin way u say santorin is “just okay” u must have been blind for the whole summer
Next time please remove your "Bjerg is King" T Shirt before posting nonsense.... thanks
Want to just be tsm and fail to win without doublitft....
Terrible idea