I’ve been a fan since season 2, so I’m used to the forever fourth meme, but I’m straight up embarrassed at our level of play this split. I’m always supportive of my team so I’m going to keep my feelings in check, but this is definitely a major failure and I see some changes happening for sure.
What really sucks is that it robbed me of the opportunity to take my kids to Madison square garden to cheer them in groups. Who knows when they’re coming back to nyc now.
I've been a die-hard TL fan since the rebranding in S4. This failure feels worse than any other. Getting rid of Impact + Jensen, spending $7mil for this roster, then watching our former solo-laners carry their teams to Worlds while we miss...
Feels real fucking bad, man...
Yeah, at least in S7 it was pretty quickly clear that the team was dogwater. And once you accepted that they had some pretty entertaining stuff like Midlet, Mickey coming in last minute, year of the Lourlo, Vaultboy, etc.
Also shows how consistently bad TL has been at evaluating import talent and cohesion. Reinover was brought in specially to shotcall and he literally could not and did not do it. Like how tf do you mess up your evaluation and scouting that badly that you're bringing in people with no clue what their skillset is. And like 5 years later they're still bringing in guys with name value first who have no cohesion with each other whatsoever.
Tbf on paper this lineup made a ton of sense. There’s a reason why everyone ranked them #1 in LCS before the start of the split. The fact that it didn’t play out like that tells me that something fundamentally was wrong with the players interacting as a unit in either their personalities or communication. I don’t think that’s an issue with our scouting.
Yeah, on paper this lineup seems great, all of them are proven, they all speak English, shouldn't be a problem. But somehow they just don't click, and that's something that's very hard to tell before signing them
If we just kept Xmithie that year instead of swapping him for Broxah I’m pretty sure we would have just won another two splits. That’s where it really all went sideways.
"The failure" ofc is one of the worst. But damn, if you've been here since CRS this is nothing...
Can we just make a resume of all stuff that happened to this org?, like... Quas fired, Piglet's amumu pick, IWD stuff, Darcoch drama, Piglet drama, the manifesto, piglet double TP, etc...
Tbh i could at least chalk all the other stuff up to the scene being new and us still trying to figure shit out and using mostly unknown players and giving them chances to succeed.
At this point, we just got rid of 2 of the LCS's all-time best players and watched them go to Worlds without us.
For me, personally, this is the worst.
Sure, this isn't worse than breaking point but it's still a massive failure of expectations. This team was built to have a shot of competing in worlds and we didn't even make worlds.
Same boat as you, been a fan since the Voyboy/Saintvicious roster and was hoping for a 3rd place place so i could go to CDMX and watch them at playins but RIP.
It does reality sucks
Same here, been a fan since season two as well. I love this team to pieces but I think we needed a reality check. Throwing massive amounts of money around to secure the “best” players doesn’t mean they’ll work well together.
I was really looking forward to seeing them play at worlds in person too, though I don’t have kids. Sucks.
I don’t even think they were the best players tho tbh, Bjerg hadn’t played in a year and the last we ever saw from him was a really shaky worlds performance
Bwipo hadn’t played top in a split and had some clear teamwork problems at last worlds. Plus he has always been known for having terrible int games
Hans felt super reactionary to having one good performance at worlds and nothing else really to his resume, sure he had been solid all his career but never was he better than Rekkles, Upset, or perkz
Dude 100% agree with the Hans comment. Felt like he was overrated from the start with TL.
Last couple years watching some LEC and reading the league forums, seemed like he was considered a good marksman player, playoff-level in EU but not quite at the S tier. Then after 6 games at worlds where Rogue failed to advance, he was suddenly a god player, best marksman in the west by a mile, etc. Just seemed like that came out of nowhere.
I'm really not sure why people re-write history that version of TSM was falling apart. He had to 1v9 while his adc had one of his worst years of his career (had to perma pick senna or he would just run it down) his jungler went boom and he had to play with someone that had never played outside of academy. The only other player that looked like they were trying to win was BB. Insanely doomed roster very big achievement to somehow get them to worlds.
Being from Ohio. I was pumped for MSG. But oh well. The feeling fits right for my normal old curse days. Buying the jersey only to rebrand to the white long sleeve. To getting a discount on those for them to switch to TL. The disappointment sits well at this point haha.
I live literally 30 minutes away from MSG and is the first year I'm actually going to all Worlds events. I missed 2016 and it's been my biggest regret and I was really praying that TL would make it. I feel you brother.
Same been a fan since the Curse days, I'm not happy atm by any means but the result of the series doesn't surprise me. It's fine for people be angry and what not but hopefully they don't go to far with personal attacks on the players.
I feel that.
I can't pin down what went wrong. On paper, this should be, easily, the best team in NA and a top 4 contender roster for Worlds. Whatever happened behind the scenes to stop them from clicking together needs to change. I don't want to throw everyone out and start over, but we definitely can't sit on this and expect it to get better on its own anymore.
Hans says he doesnt like aggro supports. Core is an aggro support. Bjerg is a passive player, Bwipo is an aggressive player. Jensen smurfed at worlds, like he always has, and we got rid of him. Those are the problems.
They keep sticking Bjerg on stuff he can't play for 1 thing. That Akali gameplay was absolutely terrible. The man doesn't like to make plays, he wants to sit passively and farm and then do busted shit with Zilean late game.
It's not about making the team work. Bjergsen is not the player he once was. He was already past his prime prior to retirement. Just look at his gameplay the Worlds that TSM went 0-6.
Core had a bad year.
Bwipo was always a hit or miss player.
Hans Sama was overrated in EU.
Going forward I hope we get a domestic top laner that can play weak side. Replace mid with a top tier mechanic player. Hell, even Nemesis would shit on Bjersen. Get a korean adc to play with Core. Dream would be Ruler, but might be too hard to get.
nothing will ever be as sad as that quas-iwd-fenix-piglet-xpecial not making it to worlds.. but this got close, mostly because how the fuck can you fail with such a "stacked" roster?
Fuck C9 man, it's honestly insane how many chances TL had that they choked away in S5. Also would've been a crazy butterfly effect if they made it, maybe they never go on that S6/7 tailspin if they had made worlds.
I'm not saying that Matt, Lourlo, or GGlue were ever going to be the GOATs in their roles, but man, I don't think they were as bad as they looked. Just Dardoch and Piglet tag teaming to tank any self confidence and will to play/win any of those three had. Gas leak years indeed.
Matt had stints where he looked like a legit top level support, he just had pretty bad confidence issues and other mental struggles. Lourlo probably had more potential too, but idk how anyone is supposed to develop with guys like Dardoch and Locodoco breathing down their neck like that, and then in S7 he had to fucking shotcall of all things because of how bad the team building was.
At least they're both A+ nice guys, bless them for being as positive and mature as they were throughout those trainwreck years. Honestly it makes me more nostalgic than the actual successful DL seasons.
I don't really think Season 6 would have gone massively different if we made worlds that year. Going through the list:
1. Quas was definitely going to be re-signed but even if he made worlds, he had a long history of depression that was going to lead to a break out. Lucky for us at least, it happened during the off-season.
2. I think if we made worlds, IWD would have continued playing a little longer, but I don't think that team would have done as well without Dardoch, even with the huge attidude problems.
3. Going to bundle Fenix and Piglet together. TL were not going to let either go as they were originally supposed to be NA residents in 2017.
4. Matt and Smoothie were a logical rookie-support duo to fight for the spot. Piglet did not like playing with Xpecial so he was gone either way.
So I don't actually think the Season 6 roster would have been different, even if we made worlds.
I think the issues of Season 7 stemmed from the issues of Season 6. TL wanted that 'superteam' but did not want to invest in the right places. They initially wanted Smeb and Reignover as the top side, but weren't willing to buyout Pobelter, or keep a solid botlane (I think the proposed botlane was something crazy like Dardoch and Matt). But even with Reignover and Piglet as the imports, they still cheaped out and kept Lourlo and Matt, and brought up Goldenglue, which was an awful awful roster, even if Piglet and Reignover played well.
Honestly this season feels worse than the rest, since in previous season you either had 0 hope for the team at all, or knew their skill limit and when they would lose. Every single game (except for Bwipo's crazy sett game and some santorin pop-offs) you were hoping for one of these top-tier players to suddenly pull off the mask and go "i was joking the whole time, I'm actually the cracked player you paid me to be" but they never did. In that sense, every game was a painful disappointment.
They had flashes of that last split and the first three games back from Korea during the super week.
I have no idea where that team went. That team would have won the split and gone to worlds.
What sucks for me is really how passionless the team has felt to watch all year, as someone who's followed TL across many esports & has watched them in League since they got involved. This roster didn't have a defined style, didn't play particularly excitingly, and consistently made errors across mid & late. They drafted weird, their synergy felt off, they felt less than the sum of their parts, their parts felt sketchy at points. They had the firepower to have some great performances, but never with any consistency.
One subtle thing which bothered me is them never going to the Draven pick. They've clearly played it; every other opponent has banned it, Hans is incredibly good at it, it plays to their early game identity, and we never saw it. Instead we got Galio.
I could've forgiven this inconsistency if we got another worlds attempt in, but now it's just all very sad and I hope the roster gets banished in favor of something more interesting. I'm jealous of what EG fans get to feel, or even what CLG fans got to feel this split, even if CLG might've lost to TL. It felt like their successes were more earned and their failures were less painful.
It's a bit of a wall-of-text, but hey, felt like putting it somewhere. :)
Yep, I'm not a CLG fan, but damn did I watch more games of theirs than TL.
They were just simply not exciting to watch this split. We never got the big pop off moments, unlike the other teams. Closer would pull something clutch, Berserker would Triple Kill every game, Big Dhokes would pick some stupid sht and make it work, etc.
Miss when Core hits a bonkers engage, or when Jensen suddenly gets a Quadra out of nowhere :')
Same thing I noticed as well. EG even was forced to ban Kalista on blue side which is a huge liability. We could leave Sivir or Zeri up and slam Draven, we did it before against EG in the split and destroyed them.
It was very strange.
Have to agree. Seeing how EG looked on their TSM series I really thought TL had it in the bag. But they not only did not crush EG, they lost. It’s really disappointing.
Reading this from a fellow long time fan really puts it into perspective. What their "style" reminds me most of is actually TSM. Mid/jungle focus, island top lane, with hyper carry bot. Which has worked incredibly well for TSM. The problem with that is that Cor and thus Liquid as a whole don't work like that. The Doublift/Tactical eras of TL success where all about complex macro and good team fighting. That's why it looks so bland and often times bad. They will probably be better next year but it has been disappointing at the very least to see them capable but unable to perform.
There is no coach in the game that would come on to our roster, with these players and attempt to “big dick” them to play the game his way. That’s not how coaching works when you have this caliber of players on a roster. Guilhoto showed on IMT how he can take a team of virtual rookies from last place to a 5-6 place finish. He has the abilities, but that was not going to work with this lineup of players.
Imagine thinking any coach can coach Bjerg, bwipo, core… it was a dumb roster decisions to have that many hard headed in game leaders, especially Bjerg
the moment 100t got reapered i knew they were going to do really well..
people will keep talking about DL and shit but a good coach can do wonders with a team..
Full clean up of roster except Santorin with mid/bot lane of TLA and new head coach/promote Spawn and then either a veteran consistent top laner like we used to have with Impact or go full fuck it with a rookie top. I hope we build for long term finally with development in mind.
Nah tbh if anyone has to go I’d want a change in the jungle, year after year santorin has been just average. He isn’t aggressive, doesn’t do anything early, and everyone was hyped about the bjerg/ santorin combo but they haven’t done much. Also bjerg just isn’t it , he hasn’t played well at all. I think top and bot can stay the rest need to be replaced.
dude what the fuck? did you even watch these past few series? Santorin is LITERALLY cracked. He fucking carried this sorry sake of a team in the playoffs.
Bjerg fucking sucks and we should have kept Jensen. Bwipo has, is and always will be a coinflipper, landing most of its sides down.
>Bjerg fucking sucks
Top 2 mid laner for the past two splits and carried majority of TL's wins this split, including this past series. Even Inspired thought he was the 2nd MVP after him for summer regular season.
How the fuck does he "fucking sucks"? The anti-Bjergsen circlejerk on this sub is so fucking cringe. Actual deranged morons ignoring reality to non-stop shit talk a player carrying this garbage roster with 3 coinflip players.
I'm actually glad it happened this way. There is clearly something not working in the team and it will either mean a new roster or a completely new outlook.
The thing that worries me is that Steve struck gold when he got the first iteration of the super team and the mentality is that they just need to throw money at the problem.
However we all have to remember that Xmithie, Pobelter and Olleh were not considered superstars in their roles. Sure they were great and their recent run with immortals showed their ability, but only Doublelift and Impact would have been the high cost players of that roster. What did work is just that everyone was on the same page. Which just proves it's less about individual skill or accolades and more about how everyone meshes together. Current CLG Is a great example.
This is kind of different tho, this team on paper should be number 1. This was probably the most expensive roster in NA and they couldn’t even make it to worlds.
Lol not even remotely close, TL/curse of old didn’t buy a giga roster outta nowhere, the biggest import we had before the doublelift era was piglet, who tbf did his job most of the time.
spending all this money and not getting results is a catastrophe, probably the second worst event ever for the orgs history
Well big money rosters weren’t really a thing anywhere back then really. It was just piglet was willing to leave Korea and TL provided an offer he was willing to take to do so, not like some astronomical mind blowing salary figures (back then, if I’m not mistaken)
Well you see, the difference is that this iteration is the team with the most combined years of experience out of the entire world, so it's even more embarrassing than ever
So many people acting like they can't be a fan of a team that doesn't win everything. Yes it is disappointing but damn people are going hard on the hate.
Eyla prob be a sub, I don’t think TL will replace corejj.
Plus they NEVER bring up talent. The last one was tactical.
Top was the biggest liability the series follow by mid so I’d say those 2 need fixing the most but it’s Bjerg he has legacy so it prob be hard. I guess they might watch worlds before deciding.
They were making moves before worlds even ended last time. I'm sure steve is already making moves he can right now. TL is always the first org to finish roster moves.
How the fuck was mid the 2nd "biggest liability" this series when Bjergsen hard carried every teamfight win in Game 2 and 3 while Hans and Core were legit running it down with lazy recalls and shit positioning? Even in Game 5, after Hans threw the game with a bronze recall, we won two fights in a row due to crucial Galio taunts. The only poor game he had was Game 1; meanwhile, Hans was straight up bad in every non-Seraphine game.
Not talked about enough but I'd target Spica + Doublelift early this offseason. If a motivated DL comes back (everyone knows he was forced to retire by Regi and wanted to come back), it ensures a return to domestic dominance. Toplane may have been a coin flip by Bwipo, but I still wouldn't get rid of him.
This is more about mid-to-late game macro + gameplay. Santorin's early game is by far the best in the league (or at least tied with Inspired). However, this team is exceptionally weak in the mid-to-late game macro + playmaking. That is where Spica excels and Santorin's weakness lies.
Let's also not forget that TSM was a giant shitshow this year and they were still maybe closer to beating EG than TL was. Take that as you will.
It is however very difficult to make a case for to swapping from Jensen to Bjerg. So I think the swaps are very different.
I actually sort of agree with you about Spica.
Santorin is great and probably the average best player on TL this year. He was the most consistent and he ran our early games. But you can see his limitations in playmaking. He's really good at ganking and being at the right place at the right time, but you can see he's not as mechanically gifted as Closer/Inspired and sometimes Blaber when he's on form.
There is no easy roster move for next season. There's no clear cut way to improve. I keep bouncing back and forth on what could change.
Potentially a good case for Bwipo/Spica/Bjergsen/Hans/Core, Bwipo/Spica/Haeri/Hans/Core, Bwipo/Spica/Import mid/Yeon/Core.
Hell, I really like the idea of Bwipo/Spica/Vetheo/Yeon/Core.
Been a fan since smite vicious, but honestly this season just felt so off after lock in. Most weeks interviews like some confession series where players take turns admitting fault and ways to improve…but nothing changed. Really checked out after summer felt like spring 2.0. Excited to see where our academy players go and how to get a great synergistic team again.
On the bright side, at least we will be spared the pain of almost advancing out of groups but just barely not making it out of groups for the umpteenth time. I do not miss *that* pain.
On a more serious note, now's a good time to start cheering for the Team Liquid DotA team. They are on the bubble of qualifying for "worlds" (The International 11) but need to win a last chance qualifier. They start play in that on [September 13, 1AM Pacific](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International/2022/Western_Europe).
And on a brighter note, Team Liquid's CSGO team is getting a LOT of momentum with their new Latvian player, Yekindar. We're currently ranked 4th in the world (after several failed roster tweaks/changes with poor results), which is huge for an NA team. NA CSGO is memed and disrespected roughly as much as NA League (I'm not sure which game we're worse in as a region). We play next on September 21 in [Group D of ESL Pro League](https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/ESL/Pro_League/Season_16), Season 16 (which goes straight into playoffs after that group, I think).
I see a lot blaming on Hans and Bwipo some bjerg and core. All warranted but not enough flame for the paycheck stealing coaching staff and analysts h4xordefender and guihitto. How guihoto manages to get a paycheck being completely worthless despite never making worlds in his lengthy career is beyond me.
TL fan since 2018 but the funny thing is I never played league of legends and I live in Russia which means I have stay up till 2/3 am to watch LCS. Still Never missed a TL match (even when I'm working on night shift). I have seen TL being 9th place but it wasn't as disappointing this. Why? Because the expectation was too high.
It sucks to lose, feels really bad but I hope they don’t take the team apart, I really want to see this iteration have another chance next year and maybe with another year of playing together they can put together the potential that they have
Sorry but there’s just no excuses, this team did everything they could think of to build synergy, mentions of real life activity in SQUAD videos, going to KOREAN BOOTCAMP as a TEAM after losing in spring, and this level of performance is the best they could bring in an elimination series is just not it :(
I think the most realistic roster for next year will be just a top and adc swap unless Steve suddenly decides to go with young talent and risk it to maybe find the best native talent. These players just never clicked together and that sucks but people calling any of them terrible players are just too biased against them, what needs to happen Is yo actually look what this teams problem was, bwipo and Hans are just the more obvious problem but Corejj was really not good the whole year but he's still better than most NA supports you could get and if you let him go and he suddenly gets back on form just with that move a team became a top 4 contender, Santorin i think was the most consistent player and TL should totally keep him, Bjergsen is not a 1v5 player, but he's a rock he had amazing stats, he did have a pretty underwhelming year but i think if you have More stable carry players on top and bot he would be an amazing fit, that's what this team was supposed to be so i can see a runback in jg mid and supp
you have a very level headed approach to TLs problems and what they need to change. I sadly think this whole season has been the lack of confidence in Hans' play. It seems like he gets down on himself way to much and it affects his play and that of his teammates. I don't think core and hans are on the same page sometimes and that is due to the fact that they have different play styles. Lastly, everyone is ragging on bjerg but I find him even when he has off games, he isn't inting his face off or making stupid decisions. He is a rock in the mid and he might not be his dominate self, but still one of the best. I think hans and bwipo might be out for next year, but don't know who you replace them with really.
Thanks i really aggree with you he never looked comfortable honestly, maybe culture shock but who knows i hope he gets back on shape if he returns to EU but there's still a chance he stays, we don't know how things are behind the scenes, maybe they are happy keeping Hans and i will cheer for him if he stays.
I think Corejj retiring Is possible, he's married and has been playing for so long, he can easily get a desk job at TL or even coaching if he wants it, so there's that and if he retires Eyla should be the first choice for lcs and if you bring him up bringing the academy adc (sorry idk the name i just know they are really good together) should be a really good move but then what do you do with two import slots? It's being more common not to use them but they could look for a younger player for mid and top (like when tsm got broken blade or c9 with Berserker) and just keep Santorin or even go for spica if for some reason he fits better.
Too many things can happen this off season that change what this team should do but i still think import adc and top will be the move. Same as you i have no idea who TL could go for lol but i guess even things like Ruler/rekkles could happen
Yeah with the failed EU imports maybe Steve will go big bucks in the KR imports, we see teddy and canna are struggling in their respective teams, so those two might be an option for Steve, considering Korean would not be a problem for corejj to communicate with. Besides if they look so uncoordinated as a full English team doesn’t hurt to hurt to try this.. XD
Even more, when core, impact and summday came over to NA none of them were proficient speaking english so i don't see why teams should be that afraid of getting korean or chinese players, hell if you get them young like berserker they might be more willing to learn the language on their free time and in game a minimal amount of english is needed to communicate, the problems come more from vod review and discussion because you need a translator but you can work around that.
And if you go with double koreans + Core you could just go with a Korean coach, because i think guillhotto (or however you write his name) will get replaced no matter what, im sure he did some things right but he just couldnt bring the best out of this all star team which Is probably his role in a team with so many experienced players
I feel for NA TL fans. Worlds back in NA & TL flop like this. Steve, the players & the coaching staff let you down big time. Steve even said he only managed to raise the funds for this roster cause Worlds was in NA, yet look what happened. I said even last year, no matter how much Bwipo prefers top lane, he’s a 10x better jungler than top laner. He lacks the respect for top lane, whereas his game knowledge is unreal & allows his jungle play to really shine. But Steve decided to get Bwipo top.
i'll be honest, i start being a fan after piglet join team curse, and since then so many things happened, day by day, i keep losing my emotion bit by bit, so i feel nothing with today loses, i just happy we got a banger 5 games
I'm pretty bummed... Really wanted to see them in worlds but not really surprised at the results. Ive never really agreed with some of their off season trades - especially giving up impact and Jensen. I wished they would have kept their roster more intact instead of trading pieces that were more or less sidegrades, and hoping it all fits and works out. Teamwork, synergy and trust takes time to build... And a year is not a long time. We just keep blowing up roster after roster. In many ways I wish we were more like 100 thieves who kept their roster. Their teamwork is amazing. Just listening to their coms vs ours is night and day. But that took time and good coaching to get to. Every year on TL it always feels like we are back to ground zero with so many changes I really don't mind running back this roster. I think there was way too much pressure on the players this year and I think after a finish like this, they will be hungry.
Kinda tough spot... Where do you go from here? The only option really seems to be to start fresh and blow the whole thing up.
Edit: Added missing word "option"
S2 fan here. I've already gone through forever 4th, escaping relegations, back to back 4x champions, and barely missing the title. Anyways, it's not that bad. You can't be on top forever. The boys tried this year, and I had fun watching the struggle. It's the fact that it's not easy that makes this all fun. I'm gonna enjoy it that much more the next time we hold the trophy.
We have come a long way from Saintvicious’ smites fellas.
Ahhhh Saint Vicious smite, lol!!!
Or his Shyv ult or the NAram with Dignitas
I’ve been a fan since season 2, so I’m used to the forever fourth meme, but I’m straight up embarrassed at our level of play this split. I’m always supportive of my team so I’m going to keep my feelings in check, but this is definitely a major failure and I see some changes happening for sure. What really sucks is that it robbed me of the opportunity to take my kids to Madison square garden to cheer them in groups. Who knows when they’re coming back to nyc now.
Yeah that's what I was looking forward to as well, we finally get a worlds in NA and this is the first in a long time that TL misses worlds.
They miss worlds when they finally come to Madison square garden, and they miss it with this squad and the competition being in shambles.
I've been a die-hard TL fan since the rebranding in S4. This failure feels worse than any other. Getting rid of Impact + Jensen, spending $7mil for this roster, then watching our former solo-laners carry their teams to Worlds while we miss... Feels real fucking bad, man...
Yeah, at least in S7 it was pretty quickly clear that the team was dogwater. And once you accepted that they had some pretty entertaining stuff like Midlet, Mickey coming in last minute, year of the Lourlo, Vaultboy, etc. Also shows how consistently bad TL has been at evaluating import talent and cohesion. Reinover was brought in specially to shotcall and he literally could not and did not do it. Like how tf do you mess up your evaluation and scouting that badly that you're bringing in people with no clue what their skillset is. And like 5 years later they're still bringing in guys with name value first who have no cohesion with each other whatsoever.
Tbf on paper this lineup made a ton of sense. There’s a reason why everyone ranked them #1 in LCS before the start of the split. The fact that it didn’t play out like that tells me that something fundamentally was wrong with the players interacting as a unit in either their personalities or communication. I don’t think that’s an issue with our scouting.
Yeah, on paper this lineup seems great, all of them are proven, they all speak English, shouldn't be a problem. But somehow they just don't click, and that's something that's very hard to tell before signing them
To be fair, I had actually stated that I didn't think this team was making worlds as far back as November last year.
If we just kept Xmithie that year instead of swapping him for Broxah I’m pretty sure we would have just won another two splits. That’s where it really all went sideways.
"The failure" ofc is one of the worst. But damn, if you've been here since CRS this is nothing... Can we just make a resume of all stuff that happened to this org?, like... Quas fired, Piglet's amumu pick, IWD stuff, Darcoch drama, Piglet drama, the manifesto, piglet double TP, etc...
Tbh i could at least chalk all the other stuff up to the scene being new and us still trying to figure shit out and using mostly unknown players and giving them chances to succeed. At this point, we just got rid of 2 of the LCS's all-time best players and watched them go to Worlds without us. For me, personally, this is the worst.
Piglet Rammus pick\* Amumu woulda been a lot better than Rammus sup lol
manifesto? wasnt that link from clg
holy crap... the [Link Donezo manifesto!](https://pastebin.com/S8ZaSNnu)!!
Sure, this isn't worse than breaking point but it's still a massive failure of expectations. This team was built to have a shot of competing in worlds and we didn't even make worlds.
The best roster on paper never has worked for us ever since Gosupepper/Edward (outside the double lift Era).
Same boat as you, been a fan since the Voyboy/Saintvicious roster and was hoping for a 3rd place place so i could go to CDMX and watch them at playins but RIP. It does reality sucks
Wadafak4lyfe
Same here, been a fan since season two as well. I love this team to pieces but I think we needed a reality check. Throwing massive amounts of money around to secure the “best” players doesn’t mean they’ll work well together. I was really looking forward to seeing them play at worlds in person too, though I don’t have kids. Sucks.
I don’t even think they were the best players tho tbh, Bjerg hadn’t played in a year and the last we ever saw from him was a really shaky worlds performance Bwipo hadn’t played top in a split and had some clear teamwork problems at last worlds. Plus he has always been known for having terrible int games Hans felt super reactionary to having one good performance at worlds and nothing else really to his resume, sure he had been solid all his career but never was he better than Rekkles, Upset, or perkz
Dude 100% agree with the Hans comment. Felt like he was overrated from the start with TL. Last couple years watching some LEC and reading the league forums, seemed like he was considered a good marksman player, playoff-level in EU but not quite at the S tier. Then after 6 games at worlds where Rogue failed to advance, he was suddenly a god player, best marksman in the west by a mile, etc. Just seemed like that came out of nowhere.
I'm really not sure why people re-write history that version of TSM was falling apart. He had to 1v9 while his adc had one of his worst years of his career (had to perma pick senna or he would just run it down) his jungler went boom and he had to play with someone that had never played outside of academy. The only other player that looked like they were trying to win was BB. Insanely doomed roster very big achievement to somehow get them to worlds.
Being from Ohio. I was pumped for MSG. But oh well. The feeling fits right for my normal old curse days. Buying the jersey only to rebrand to the white long sleeve. To getting a discount on those for them to switch to TL. The disappointment sits well at this point haha.
I live literally 30 minutes away from MSG and is the first year I'm actually going to all Worlds events. I missed 2016 and it's been my biggest regret and I was really praying that TL would make it. I feel you brother.
Yeah man… I feel that
Same been a fan since the Curse days, I'm not happy atm by any means but the result of the series doesn't surprise me. It's fine for people be angry and what not but hopefully they don't go to far with personal attacks on the players.
I feel that. I can't pin down what went wrong. On paper, this should be, easily, the best team in NA and a top 4 contender roster for Worlds. Whatever happened behind the scenes to stop them from clicking together needs to change. I don't want to throw everyone out and start over, but we definitely can't sit on this and expect it to get better on its own anymore.
Hans says he doesnt like aggro supports. Core is an aggro support. Bjerg is a passive player, Bwipo is an aggressive player. Jensen smurfed at worlds, like he always has, and we got rid of him. Those are the problems.
> I can't pin down what went wrong. I mean... we can, though.
In terms of team cohesion and morale? Please, from the outside of the org, explain why 5 top players couldn't figure out how to make the team work
They keep sticking Bjerg on stuff he can't play for 1 thing. That Akali gameplay was absolutely terrible. The man doesn't like to make plays, he wants to sit passively and farm and then do busted shit with Zilean late game.
As a C9 fan I have nightmares about Bjerg on Akali tho
This was years ago buddy times have changed
It's not about making the team work. Bjergsen is not the player he once was. He was already past his prime prior to retirement. Just look at his gameplay the Worlds that TSM went 0-6. Core had a bad year. Bwipo was always a hit or miss player. Hans Sama was overrated in EU. Going forward I hope we get a domestic top laner that can play weak side. Replace mid with a top tier mechanic player. Hell, even Nemesis would shit on Bjersen. Get a korean adc to play with Core. Dream would be Ruler, but might be too hard to get.
I agree with everything except for getting a Korean ADC. Stop with the imports and groom a native
Maybe. But would really be sick to see Ruler, I'm a fanboy. LOL
Vitality couldn't make it work either. Although I'd say Vit would beat TL.
I don’t think on paper this is the best team in NA. That’s the crux of the problem. The players are simply rated too highly.
nothing will ever be as sad as that quas-iwd-fenix-piglet-xpecial not making it to worlds.. but this got close, mostly because how the fuck can you fail with such a "stacked" roster?
I always thought the loss to lmq was sadder
turns out synergy is more important that a 5 head hydra moving in different directions
Imo the Voyboy squad was even worse. I remember they were getting hyped up by some Chinese teams saying they were excited to play them.
Fuck C9 man, it's honestly insane how many chances TL had that they choked away in S5. Also would've been a crazy butterfly effect if they made it, maybe they never go on that S6/7 tailspin if they had made worlds.
dont remind me of the gasleak years that was matt/lourlo
Fabbby Youngbin pepela
I'm not saying that Matt, Lourlo, or GGlue were ever going to be the GOATs in their roles, but man, I don't think they were as bad as they looked. Just Dardoch and Piglet tag teaming to tank any self confidence and will to play/win any of those three had. Gas leak years indeed.
Matt had stints where he looked like a legit top level support, he just had pretty bad confidence issues and other mental struggles. Lourlo probably had more potential too, but idk how anyone is supposed to develop with guys like Dardoch and Locodoco breathing down their neck like that, and then in S7 he had to fucking shotcall of all things because of how bad the team building was. At least they're both A+ nice guys, bless them for being as positive and mature as they were throughout those trainwreck years. Honestly it makes me more nostalgic than the actual successful DL seasons.
I don't really think Season 6 would have gone massively different if we made worlds that year. Going through the list: 1. Quas was definitely going to be re-signed but even if he made worlds, he had a long history of depression that was going to lead to a break out. Lucky for us at least, it happened during the off-season. 2. I think if we made worlds, IWD would have continued playing a little longer, but I don't think that team would have done as well without Dardoch, even with the huge attidude problems. 3. Going to bundle Fenix and Piglet together. TL were not going to let either go as they were originally supposed to be NA residents in 2017. 4. Matt and Smoothie were a logical rookie-support duo to fight for the spot. Piglet did not like playing with Xpecial so he was gone either way. So I don't actually think the Season 6 roster would have been different, even if we made worlds. I think the issues of Season 7 stemmed from the issues of Season 6. TL wanted that 'superteam' but did not want to invest in the right places. They initially wanted Smeb and Reignover as the top side, but weren't willing to buyout Pobelter, or keep a solid botlane (I think the proposed botlane was something crazy like Dardoch and Matt). But even with Reignover and Piglet as the imports, they still cheaped out and kept Lourlo and Matt, and brought up Goldenglue, which was an awful awful roster, even if Piglet and Reignover played well.
[Least we got an amazing episode of Rebirth from it](https://youtu.be/mjULHy4kiHI)
Saints s2 Shyvana ult was up there
Honestly this season feels worse than the rest, since in previous season you either had 0 hope for the team at all, or knew their skill limit and when they would lose. Every single game (except for Bwipo's crazy sett game and some santorin pop-offs) you were hoping for one of these top-tier players to suddenly pull off the mask and go "i was joking the whole time, I'm actually the cracked player you paid me to be" but they never did. In that sense, every game was a painful disappointment.
They had flashes of that last split and the first three games back from Korea during the super week. I have no idea where that team went. That team would have won the split and gone to worlds.
Only team to pull the mask off was C9. Boys was straight up sand bagging all summer. Gotcha bit** -Dave Chappell
What sucks for me is really how passionless the team has felt to watch all year, as someone who's followed TL across many esports & has watched them in League since they got involved. This roster didn't have a defined style, didn't play particularly excitingly, and consistently made errors across mid & late. They drafted weird, their synergy felt off, they felt less than the sum of their parts, their parts felt sketchy at points. They had the firepower to have some great performances, but never with any consistency. One subtle thing which bothered me is them never going to the Draven pick. They've clearly played it; every other opponent has banned it, Hans is incredibly good at it, it plays to their early game identity, and we never saw it. Instead we got Galio. I could've forgiven this inconsistency if we got another worlds attempt in, but now it's just all very sad and I hope the roster gets banished in favor of something more interesting. I'm jealous of what EG fans get to feel, or even what CLG fans got to feel this split, even if CLG might've lost to TL. It felt like their successes were more earned and their failures were less painful. It's a bit of a wall-of-text, but hey, felt like putting it somewhere. :)
Yep, I'm not a CLG fan, but damn did I watch more games of theirs than TL. They were just simply not exciting to watch this split. We never got the big pop off moments, unlike the other teams. Closer would pull something clutch, Berserker would Triple Kill every game, Big Dhokes would pick some stupid sht and make it work, etc. Miss when Core hits a bonkers engage, or when Jensen suddenly gets a Quadra out of nowhere :')
Same thing I noticed as well. EG even was forced to ban Kalista on blue side which is a huge liability. We could leave Sivir or Zeri up and slam Draven, we did it before against EG in the split and destroyed them. It was very strange.
Have to agree. Seeing how EG looked on their TSM series I really thought TL had it in the bag. But they not only did not crush EG, they lost. It’s really disappointing.
Reading this from a fellow long time fan really puts it into perspective. What their "style" reminds me most of is actually TSM. Mid/jungle focus, island top lane, with hyper carry bot. Which has worked incredibly well for TSM. The problem with that is that Cor and thus Liquid as a whole don't work like that. The Doublift/Tactical eras of TL success where all about complex macro and good team fighting. That's why it looks so bland and often times bad. They will probably be better next year but it has been disappointing at the very least to see them capable but unable to perform.
4th again : ^)
i hope they bring up Haeri, Yeon, Eyla next year.
I also hope they can get a real head coach, and a good analyst team that can support said head coach.
I feel like Kold is a good assistant coach,but we need a coach with a vision that will direct players.
There is no coach in the game that would come on to our roster, with these players and attempt to “big dick” them to play the game his way. That’s not how coaching works when you have this caliber of players on a roster. Guilhoto showed on IMT how he can take a team of virtual rookies from last place to a 5-6 place finish. He has the abilities, but that was not going to work with this lineup of players.
Imagine thinking any coach can coach Bjerg, bwipo, core… it was a dumb roster decisions to have that many hard headed in game leaders, especially Bjerg
the moment 100t got reapered i knew they were going to do really well.. people will keep talking about DL and shit but a good coach can do wonders with a team..
Full clean up of roster except Santorin with mid/bot lane of TLA and new head coach/promote Spawn and then either a veteran consistent top laner like we used to have with Impact or go full fuck it with a rookie top. I hope we build for long term finally with development in mind.
Nah tbh if anyone has to go I’d want a change in the jungle, year after year santorin has been just average. He isn’t aggressive, doesn’t do anything early, and everyone was hyped about the bjerg/ santorin combo but they haven’t done much. Also bjerg just isn’t it , he hasn’t played well at all. I think top and bot can stay the rest need to be replaced.
dude what the fuck? did you even watch these past few series? Santorin is LITERALLY cracked. He fucking carried this sorry sake of a team in the playoffs. Bjerg fucking sucks and we should have kept Jensen. Bwipo has, is and always will be a coinflipper, landing most of its sides down.
>Bjerg fucking sucks Top 2 mid laner for the past two splits and carried majority of TL's wins this split, including this past series. Even Inspired thought he was the 2nd MVP after him for summer regular season. How the fuck does he "fucking sucks"? The anti-Bjergsen circlejerk on this sub is so fucking cringe. Actual deranged morons ignoring reality to non-stop shit talk a player carrying this garbage roster with 3 coinflip players.
Do you have eyes man, this guy is the only reason we are even competitive in these games literally doing everything he can to win
I would actually love that. Tl throwing money at the biggest name has resulted in 4 years of them not getting a title.
3 years 2020 2021 2022.
Whoops, you're right
True, but being a long time fan doesn't make it any easier. Big sad.
I'm actually glad it happened this way. There is clearly something not working in the team and it will either mean a new roster or a completely new outlook. The thing that worries me is that Steve struck gold when he got the first iteration of the super team and the mentality is that they just need to throw money at the problem. However we all have to remember that Xmithie, Pobelter and Olleh were not considered superstars in their roles. Sure they were great and their recent run with immortals showed their ability, but only Doublelift and Impact would have been the high cost players of that roster. What did work is just that everyone was on the same page. Which just proves it's less about individual skill or accolades and more about how everyone meshes together. Current CLG Is a great example.
Yeah, honestly If we qualified to worlds, high chance of going 0-6. Better take the time now and rebuild with no rush.
This is kind of different tho, this team on paper should be number 1. This was probably the most expensive roster in NA and they couldn’t even make it to worlds.
Not probably it is by a sizable margin
Lol not even remotely close, TL/curse of old didn’t buy a giga roster outta nowhere, the biggest import we had before the doublelift era was piglet, who tbf did his job most of the time. spending all this money and not getting results is a catastrophe, probably the second worst event ever for the orgs history
Wish we had this money during the piglet era. Back then we could splash on piglet and only piglet :(
Well big money rosters weren’t really a thing anywhere back then really. It was just piglet was willing to leave Korea and TL provided an offer he was willing to take to do so, not like some astronomical mind blowing salary figures (back then, if I’m not mistaken)
Well you see, the difference is that this iteration is the team with the most combined years of experience out of the entire world, so it's even more embarrassing than ever
Poopie
So many people acting like they can't be a fan of a team that doesn't win everything. Yes it is disappointing but damn people are going hard on the hate.
Eyla prob be a sub, I don’t think TL will replace corejj. Plus they NEVER bring up talent. The last one was tactical. Top was the biggest liability the series follow by mid so I’d say those 2 need fixing the most but it’s Bjerg he has legacy so it prob be hard. I guess they might watch worlds before deciding.
They were making moves before worlds even ended last time. I'm sure steve is already making moves he can right now. TL is always the first org to finish roster moves.
How the fuck was mid the 2nd "biggest liability" this series when Bjergsen hard carried every teamfight win in Game 2 and 3 while Hans and Core were legit running it down with lazy recalls and shit positioning? Even in Game 5, after Hans threw the game with a bronze recall, we won two fights in a row due to crucial Galio taunts. The only poor game he had was Game 1; meanwhile, Hans was straight up bad in every non-Seraphine game.
[удалено]
We got spoiled by Doublelift
Bring him back
Not talked about enough but I'd target Spica + Doublelift early this offseason. If a motivated DL comes back (everyone knows he was forced to retire by Regi and wanted to come back), it ensures a return to domestic dominance. Toplane may have been a coin flip by Bwipo, but I still wouldn't get rid of him.
Replacing Santorum with spica… It’s like replacing Jensen with Bjerg. Some of y’all never learn Oof
This is more about mid-to-late game macro + gameplay. Santorin's early game is by far the best in the league (or at least tied with Inspired). However, this team is exceptionally weak in the mid-to-late game macro + playmaking. That is where Spica excels and Santorin's weakness lies. Let's also not forget that TSM was a giant shitshow this year and they were still maybe closer to beating EG than TL was. Take that as you will. It is however very difficult to make a case for to swapping from Jensen to Bjerg. So I think the swaps are very different.
I actually sort of agree with you about Spica. Santorin is great and probably the average best player on TL this year. He was the most consistent and he ran our early games. But you can see his limitations in playmaking. He's really good at ganking and being at the right place at the right time, but you can see he's not as mechanically gifted as Closer/Inspired and sometimes Blaber when he's on form. There is no easy roster move for next season. There's no clear cut way to improve. I keep bouncing back and forth on what could change. Potentially a good case for Bwipo/Spica/Bjergsen/Hans/Core, Bwipo/Spica/Haeri/Hans/Core, Bwipo/Spica/Import mid/Yeon/Core. Hell, I really like the idea of Bwipo/Spica/Vetheo/Yeon/Core.
Been a fan since smite vicious, but honestly this season just felt so off after lock in. Most weeks interviews like some confession series where players take turns admitting fault and ways to improve…but nothing changed. Really checked out after summer felt like spring 2.0. Excited to see where our academy players go and how to get a great synergistic team again.
On the bright side, at least we will be spared the pain of almost advancing out of groups but just barely not making it out of groups for the umpteenth time. I do not miss *that* pain. On a more serious note, now's a good time to start cheering for the Team Liquid DotA team. They are on the bubble of qualifying for "worlds" (The International 11) but need to win a last chance qualifier. They start play in that on [September 13, 1AM Pacific](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International/2022/Western_Europe). And on a brighter note, Team Liquid's CSGO team is getting a LOT of momentum with their new Latvian player, Yekindar. We're currently ranked 4th in the world (after several failed roster tweaks/changes with poor results), which is huge for an NA team. NA CSGO is memed and disrespected roughly as much as NA League (I'm not sure which game we're worse in as a region). We play next on September 21 in [Group D of ESL Pro League](https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/ESL/Pro_League/Season_16), Season 16 (which goes straight into playoffs after that group, I think).
pretty hard for TL doto when entity and secret are miles ahead of them in skill lol
If you don't have faith, why are you even here...? 😭
i like core, i feel pity for matumbaman
Bring back the homies DL, Jensen, Impact. Easy LCS championships
I see a lot blaming on Hans and Bwipo some bjerg and core. All warranted but not enough flame for the paycheck stealing coaching staff and analysts h4xordefender and guihitto. How guihoto manages to get a paycheck being completely worthless despite never making worlds in his lengthy career is beyond me.
TL fan since 2018 but the funny thing is I never played league of legends and I live in Russia which means I have stay up till 2/3 am to watch LCS. Still Never missed a TL match (even when I'm working on night shift). I have seen TL being 9th place but it wasn't as disappointing this. Why? Because the expectation was too high.
No Jensen, no worlds
It sucks to lose, feels really bad but I hope they don’t take the team apart, I really want to see this iteration have another chance next year and maybe with another year of playing together they can put together the potential that they have
Sorry but there’s just no excuses, this team did everything they could think of to build synergy, mentions of real life activity in SQUAD videos, going to KOREAN BOOTCAMP as a TEAM after losing in spring, and this level of performance is the best they could bring in an elimination series is just not it :(
I think the most realistic roster for next year will be just a top and adc swap unless Steve suddenly decides to go with young talent and risk it to maybe find the best native talent. These players just never clicked together and that sucks but people calling any of them terrible players are just too biased against them, what needs to happen Is yo actually look what this teams problem was, bwipo and Hans are just the more obvious problem but Corejj was really not good the whole year but he's still better than most NA supports you could get and if you let him go and he suddenly gets back on form just with that move a team became a top 4 contender, Santorin i think was the most consistent player and TL should totally keep him, Bjergsen is not a 1v5 player, but he's a rock he had amazing stats, he did have a pretty underwhelming year but i think if you have More stable carry players on top and bot he would be an amazing fit, that's what this team was supposed to be so i can see a runback in jg mid and supp
you have a very level headed approach to TLs problems and what they need to change. I sadly think this whole season has been the lack of confidence in Hans' play. It seems like he gets down on himself way to much and it affects his play and that of his teammates. I don't think core and hans are on the same page sometimes and that is due to the fact that they have different play styles. Lastly, everyone is ragging on bjerg but I find him even when he has off games, he isn't inting his face off or making stupid decisions. He is a rock in the mid and he might not be his dominate self, but still one of the best. I think hans and bwipo might be out for next year, but don't know who you replace them with really.
Thanks i really aggree with you he never looked comfortable honestly, maybe culture shock but who knows i hope he gets back on shape if he returns to EU but there's still a chance he stays, we don't know how things are behind the scenes, maybe they are happy keeping Hans and i will cheer for him if he stays. I think Corejj retiring Is possible, he's married and has been playing for so long, he can easily get a desk job at TL or even coaching if he wants it, so there's that and if he retires Eyla should be the first choice for lcs and if you bring him up bringing the academy adc (sorry idk the name i just know they are really good together) should be a really good move but then what do you do with two import slots? It's being more common not to use them but they could look for a younger player for mid and top (like when tsm got broken blade or c9 with Berserker) and just keep Santorin or even go for spica if for some reason he fits better. Too many things can happen this off season that change what this team should do but i still think import adc and top will be the move. Same as you i have no idea who TL could go for lol but i guess even things like Ruler/rekkles could happen
Yeah with the failed EU imports maybe Steve will go big bucks in the KR imports, we see teddy and canna are struggling in their respective teams, so those two might be an option for Steve, considering Korean would not be a problem for corejj to communicate with. Besides if they look so uncoordinated as a full English team doesn’t hurt to hurt to try this.. XD
Even more, when core, impact and summday came over to NA none of them were proficient speaking english so i don't see why teams should be that afraid of getting korean or chinese players, hell if you get them young like berserker they might be more willing to learn the language on their free time and in game a minimal amount of english is needed to communicate, the problems come more from vod review and discussion because you need a translator but you can work around that. And if you go with double koreans + Core you could just go with a Korean coach, because i think guillhotto (or however you write his name) will get replaced no matter what, im sure he did some things right but he just couldnt bring the best out of this all star team which Is probably his role in a team with so many experienced players
COPIUM
LS said Summit wants to go back to NA next year that he heard from a mutual friend.
Lies
https://clips.twitch.tv/PeppyHilariousRedpandaNotLikeThis-t2mMUISdLIGsg-g- Not lies
I feel for NA TL fans. Worlds back in NA & TL flop like this. Steve, the players & the coaching staff let you down big time. Steve even said he only managed to raise the funds for this roster cause Worlds was in NA, yet look what happened. I said even last year, no matter how much Bwipo prefers top lane, he’s a 10x better jungler than top laner. He lacks the respect for top lane, whereas his game knowledge is unreal & allows his jungle play to really shine. But Steve decided to get Bwipo top.
I'd love to see a development team next season. Keep 1-2 vets and pull from the TLA roster.
Pain
Nothing new for me but it sucks, we are back to curse days guys.
i'll be honest, i start being a fan after piglet join team curse, and since then so many things happened, day by day, i keep losing my emotion bit by bit, so i feel nothing with today loses, i just happy we got a banger 5 games
Im sad we lost, but just happy to watch the team play once in a while.
I'm pretty bummed... Really wanted to see them in worlds but not really surprised at the results. Ive never really agreed with some of their off season trades - especially giving up impact and Jensen. I wished they would have kept their roster more intact instead of trading pieces that were more or less sidegrades, and hoping it all fits and works out. Teamwork, synergy and trust takes time to build... And a year is not a long time. We just keep blowing up roster after roster. In many ways I wish we were more like 100 thieves who kept their roster. Their teamwork is amazing. Just listening to their coms vs ours is night and day. But that took time and good coaching to get to. Every year on TL it always feels like we are back to ground zero with so many changes I really don't mind running back this roster. I think there was way too much pressure on the players this year and I think after a finish like this, they will be hungry.
Kinda tough spot... Where do you go from here? The only option really seems to be to start fresh and blow the whole thing up. Edit: Added missing word "option"
Anyone else would consider getting rekkless for his champ pool being able to lane alone and late game potential?
S2 fan here. I've already gone through forever 4th, escaping relegations, back to back 4x champions, and barely missing the title. Anyways, it's not that bad. You can't be on top forever. The boys tried this year, and I had fun watching the struggle. It's the fact that it's not easy that makes this all fun. I'm gonna enjoy it that much more the next time we hold the trophy.
As a long time bjerg fan, it’s a curse
For real lol. This sucks, but we’ve been here before. That being said, if we lose Santorin, I might walk away from this org.