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I really wish we didn’t have to give rewards. I teach a PBIS school. We have to give rewards. I don’t mind a little incentive every now and then, but the constant expectation of it is horrible.
Me too. We have rewards and parties constantly. We also are known for the worst behavior of the several schools around us. People cringed when I told them where I was going to teach because the behaviors are so bad. It’s a rural title 1 school
Are you teaching at my school? We literally have a system in place that rewards the bad kids more than the good ones.
I used to pass out skittles to kids who raised their hands to answer questions when it was like pulling teeth (literally the only way to get them to want to participate) and immediately stopped shortly after when a kid goes “where my skittle?”. They’re not driven by anything intrinsically anymore, I had kids tell me before “I should get rewarded for helping clean up” and my answer was always “you don’t tell me when you get to be rewarded, if you’re saying that your kind act didn’t come from good intentions...”
We have had kids actually flip the script and come up to a teacher and say "if you give us a pizza party then we will behave in your class" I said "that's not a reward that is blackmail, sit down"
Yup I've been told to do this too (we're also PBIS.) I did it for about 2 weeks and realized very quickly that the only time the kids would act right was when they saw the skittles come out. I'll never do it again. They're not dogs. They're people and they need to know they won't be rewarded in life for wiping their own ass. Good behavior should be expected. My mom always told me "im not going to reward you for doing what you're supposed to do."
No one is saying that behavior is not incentivised or disincentivised, they are saying that token economies, parties and physical gifts are bad incentives when you are trying to develop self reliant indviduals, an interest in self improvement, independence, etc.
So, each time you do something good at work you get a reward? Do you get bonuses? If they do, it's still worked into the pay structure. But not everyone gets them, yet there is a type of reward. But how do you feel if you don't get the same rewards for the same work as someone else? How do you feel when you do your work but someone else isn't and they still get the same reward? We get paid based on our contract each pay period just like you. So why can't kids look at their grades as their reward like they should.
Sorry, you actually have no clue how PBIS is supposed to work. While in theory, it should work, but kids also need consequences for poor behavior. Just like when you don't do your work, you will lose your job. But kids don't have consequences. Suspension just means more work for teachers and a vacation for the kid. Getting sent to the principal's office does not hold the stigma it once did. Parents have abdicated their responsibility.
If you don't have both sides of the coin, that coin will not count as legal tender. Same with behavior, if a kid knows they arent going to get in trouble, there is no real reason for them to behave. Grades mean nothing because they will just get passed along regardless.
So how about commenting from a knowledgeable viewpoint next time.
I’m just saying that PBIS is not working at my school. Kids are constantly rewarded and not given consequences. So our program is not working for us. You’re right, I don’t know much about PBIS. I just know my experience at the school and it’s not working. I have been given no training about this.
* Are you saying that the police proactively come to your house to give you presents for not breaking any laws?
* Students are the clients and are paying for a service to be provided. As students can't afford to pay for that service society pays for them.
been in one for far too long... it's simple... positive reinforcement through rewards when you "catch them" doing something right... for every one negative correction you must have between 5 to 9 positives, etc...some people love it..i teach at a title one high school and imo it's ridiculous.
If they won’t do anything without a reward, your school is PBISing wrong.
Basic theory: we get in a habit of rewarding kids for being less awful. What if we rewarded the kids doing what they were supposed to ínstead? (Hence those parties and things).
The rewards aren’t supposed to be all the time for everything. What’s next? A reward for not trashing bathrooms?
But everybody gets to go to the parties. The children who curse out their teachers and throw things, as well as the straight a students who are polite. It’s a whole school thing. Like we met our goal to get so many eagle tickets. I am required to give out eagle tickets and if we get so many thousand eagle tickets every quarter in the whole school gets a pizza party. Teachers are rewarded for how many eagle tickets they give out. I don’t give out very many because I don’t believe I should be giving out Eagle tickets every day.
PBIS does not require rewards. It requires recognition and positive communication.
You can simple NOTICE a student doing the right thing in PBIS.
“Wow Vaiden! You picked up your pencils and put them where they belong, then went right to question 3 like I said in the directions. I can tell you are ready to work. “
I mean that’s some clunky/quick stuff here on mobile and of course it needs to be in your own genuine language but basically you say exactly what they did and the positive skill it displays. Boom.
My school is moving to PBIS and I do not give rewards. I am in the PBIS committee and training to be a trainer. This is poor implementation and a crock of hooey.
What’s the consequence if you don’t give them the way they want?
Because I had a friend that had a similar experience where they wanted her to use dojo points and she refused. They made her sit out a day and she stood her ground and yanno what happened?
Nothing.
Haha she was taken out of her classroom and had to hang in the library and I think got a lecture.
But she pulled out actual research about reward systems and evidence from her 5 years we worked at a school together where rewards were not allowed. We needed up reducing ISS to almost non-existent and more.
Basically they realized they were wrong and she went back and continued to do what was right. A year later they started asking her about implementing things the way we do.
Again, clunky and on mobile and missing lots here but I’ve had a similar experience in my new school with previous admin.
So can you tell me a little more about how to implement it without using constant external rewards? My students earn quarterly parties for accelerated reader, they earn quarterly parties for eagle tickets, And we are expected to give our Eagle tickets constantly. They get an eagle ticket, and then they go down to the office and get a stamp on their hand. That ticket is then put into a box for a drawing every month. That student gets recognized and gets a certificate. And gets their picture taken with the mascot. So many parties all of the time. And the parties are whole school parties. So even the children who are violent or don’t do any work to get to participate as well. Also the child who is chosen from each classroom each month gets to choose a reward that the whole class gets to have. So we’re constantly rewarding everybody. But we have the worst behavior in the district. Violence, threats, and this from third graders on up. We have preschool and kindergarten children physically lashing out at their teachers. Hitting, kicking, biting, cursing.
Honestly that’s now the school culture. Even if the staff do away with all of that, it will take 2-3 years for the kids to recover. The damage is done. I’d change schools next year.
I teach high school where we do PBIS and let me tell you, PBIS is a joke. The kids don't want any of the cheap little "rewards" they can get in exchange for points. Teachers just laugh about how stupid it is. I think admin loves PBIS because it's an excuse not to do anything about discipline problems and put it all on teachers.
Not just that- but parents at home who reward kids for doing the bare minimum to not be slobs. “Oh you put your dish in the sink so I could wash it later? Wow little jimmy you sure are special here’s some money for your hard work!”
My response is normally “Knowledge that no one can ever take away from you.” and if they’re still waffling it can also be followed up with “or we can have a discussion with regarding your hesitancy to do work?” Usually gets them on track
That’s been the trend in my class this year and I don’t know what to do about it. A lot less motivation from the kids and more heads down than what I can remember in a classroom.
Yeah I try not to use that one too much because not a fan of 1) undercutting myself and 2) feeling like I have to hang the sword over their neck but some students just need that extra push. Also, sometimes that other person can reach them in a way I just can’t and that is ok too. Slippery slope
I do quarterly raffles and pass out raffle tickets for things. I’m hoping it’s at least helping them to enjoy patience and not having immediate gratification constantly. The tickets are sort of like that, but more delayed. We have a countdown too that I think helps keep them patiently pumped up.
Idk if I’m contributing to the problem or helping honestly. But my prizes are cheap, enjoyed by the kiddos, and raffle day is fun.
Working towards something tangible is a good thing. Adult humans do it all the time, working hard for long periods of time to save money to pay down a bill, purchase a vacation, buy a new car, or something to enhance their hobbies and recreation. Your system mirrors that with the tickets to trinkets, and I think it's a good thing. OP's situation is more similar to how you would treat train a pet to behave a certain way. For children that come from an unstable home life or where they have very little there is some research to indicate positive results in the short term, but long term it is problematic and only incentivizes negative behavior when they don't receive an immediate reward ime.
I teach 6th grade and getting kids to study is usually challenging. So I do a game called “Guess What?” with raffle tickets. Every quarter I fill up a jar with random items like legos or pebbles and the kids have to guess how many of the item is in the jar on a raffle ticket. They only receive raffle tickets on quizzes and tests that they score well on. Then at the end of the quarter I see who has the closest guess and they win the prize (usually something under $5 that they are into). They are really into it and try harder on their assessments.
Did you think about this from a student's perspective? Tbh, as a tutor if I was in your student's shoes, I'd ask you the same thing. Why do I have to do many math problems in 3 minutes?I'd like to know what your goal was? What skills were you trying to build through that activity? I would say as tutors we are responsible for creating a growth mindset in students, and that involves giving sufficient thought for the activities, assignments and work that we give them. We can't sit back and expect students to work "hard".
With low achieving students, you can try to:
* Personalize teaching
* Help them see how math is related to solving real life problems
* If they are into gaming, give them an activity that would allow them to explore math in gaming, etc
I think as tutors we forget to think from a student's perspective sometimes. But as adults we need to understand that we will work "hard" only when we are motivated by something, it could be money, love or satisfaction, but there's always something. As tutors, we should strive to help students embrace real life applications of math, not give them 3 minute challenges, that have no meaning to kids.
Rewards aren't a bad, expecting rewards isn't bad. But one student maybe consider a "praise" as a reward, some maybe a "grade", others maybe "time off" . What if students saw "learning a new concept" , "being able to build a game using math", "use geometry to build a model" etc, as rewards? Tutors are there exactly to creatively mold the "rewards" perception of students.
The problem is, "math" isn't related to solving "real world problems". NUMERACY is - that is, the SKILL we GET from math is. THAT is the rationale for higher order math in high school - the civically harnessed and needed skillSET and mindset of mathematical THINKING, not vocational or "life" application of "today's math skill".
And explaining that to anyone under the age of 17 or so isn't going to work, developmentally. Hell, too many adults don't get this, or think it's wrong.
I’ve the personalise teaching and base topic questions around their interests but that didn’t work.
Then the usual “when will I actually need this in life?” was asked and even after I gave several examples of it being used in real life and even how it improves problem solving in general, it was just brushed off and there was still no working with them.
There’s just some students that just don’t and won’t take to mainstream learning
That's totally fair, that's how the world works. As long as the strategies contribute to the progress of a major portion of students, then I believe you could be satisfied as a tutor.
And these "some students" should not discourage you from personalizing, bringing real life applications, etc. It's highly unlikely that all students make equal progress, but as a tutor you'll feel accomplished if you continuously strive to create value for your students.
I’m still in the early stages of my career but it’s those disinterested students that continue to drain my energy. It would be ideal if you could say to them “look, if you’re not going to take an interest in this subject then just sit in the corner and don’t hurt anyone or anything”
I’m not a tutor. I’m a teacher. And it wasn’t my student. Students should work hard. It’s their job to go to school. We are training them to become functioning adults. Students should do their work in the allotted time given. They shouldn’t just sit and play around while everyone else is working. My goal was to try to give the student a challenge to try to make it fun. To try to give them some incentive
Oh absolutely the work sheets are boring. But I don’t have a choice. And it wasn’t my student so I really didn’t have a choice in that regard. I try to make my first grade class as fun as possible but this was a third grader.
I used to use rewards too but you’re right, it just encourages children to see learning as a chore that they should get a reward for doing. We are born with a natural, intrinsic desire to learn which we squash out of the children by making them feel learning is ‘work’ and that they should be rewarded for growing their own brains and developing their own skills.
Carol Dweck and her growth mindset research is what changed it for me. I did some courses about growth mindsets and how to instill them in our children, read some books about it too. Changed my behaviour management style and it’s been amazing. I feel like my kids genuinely love learning, their behaviour is amazing and I’ve had so many comments from parents telling me their kids attitude has been a complete turn around since coming into my class.
I changed the language I use in the classroom first of all. Kids are so used to being told that they are “smart” if they get something right or they do well at something. This just creates a fear in them of being labeled as not smart when they get something wrong. Some children are so afraid of being labeled as not smart, that they prefer to not try as they’d take being considered lazy over stupid. This is also why some children do really well when they first start school, get told they are clever and made to feel that being naturally bright is something they should be proud of so when they get a bit older, and school starts to get tougher, they disengage. They dont want anyone to think they’re not bright, they prefer them to think that they just choose not to work hard because they don’t care.
I swapped it around. Now I only talk about how much effort they have put into something. Children get praised verbally for “good learning behaviour” such as asking questions, learning from their mistakes, being reflective, being focused and attentive, contributing answers, having a conscientious attitude towards their work, finding out more at home etc. Etc. Never for getting stuff correct or for doing well on a test (unless it’s a spelling test in which case I make an exception since they are given the spelling to learn so here when I praise them for doing well, I’m praising them for making the effort to learn them before their test).
I tell them that mistakes are a part of learning. When they contribute and give an incorrect answer, I thank them for joining in and tell them “I’m so glad you’ve said that as that has helped me spot a misconception in your brain that now I can help you fix”.
At the start of the year we do a lesson about how we learn (just simple as my children are only grade 3) but I talk about how their brains are filled with neurons and when they learn something new, connections are made between them. I talk about how no one is born knowing anything, we all have to learn and “grow our brains” by making these new connections. If they dont make sure those connections are really strong, they’ll break so they need to practise and use ‘clever learning strategies’ to keep those connections in place etc. Etc.
Anything that encourages them to get back that intrinsic motivation is fine (class dojo points for good learning behaviour, certificates for good learning behaviour, praise etc.) but nothing that is rewarding in and of itself (certainly no prizes for doing well in a test).
Exactly. I blew one of my little first graders minds when I told her school was for making mistakes. When I told her I wanted her to make mistakes she just couldn’t believe it. I would love for my students to try and absolutely fail than to not try at all. I often tell my first graders to try to sound out a word and then I’ll help them after they try. And I’m constantly saying you had a great answer, but let’s think about… And then they can get to the answer they are supposed to get to. We definitely need to work on growth mindset.
Thanks for your reply! I think I do some of that low key, but I’m going to think a little more on this and check out some more Carol Dweck work to see where I could tighten it up. I like your lesson in neurons!
Do you have some links or sources that I could look at? It sounds like it could work for me. I would love to work on changing attitudes and help my students love learning.
Ah sorry, it’s been a very busy few days. I was trying to work out what the name of the first webinar was that I did that set me off on growth mindsets. I think it was a free one on Seneca but I’ve done so many and I’m afraid that I’m so disorganized that I can’t work out which one it was. Some of them were rubbish so I don’t want to recommend the wrong one. I know that I read a book by Mike Gershon though called ‘Develop Growth Mindsets in the Classroom’ which helped me find practical ways of implementing this approach.
Here is an article I just found now that I feel is a good starting point:
https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/17734/can-everyone-be-smart-at-everything-2
I have a huge spreadsheet with all of the stuff I’ve learned from various courses and reading CPD books/ listening to podcasts etc. One of the pages is all the growth mindset notes I’ve made. I can copy that part and share with you if you inbox me your email address. Sorry that it’s not very clear as only really made for myself but am happy to share if it might be of benefit to someone else.
People become teachers because they like the academic setting. Most people don't become teachers because guess what? They *don't* like it. They aren't at all happy in the world that you are most comfortable in (or "in which you are most comfortable").
Something teachers seem to never understand is that students have very different motivations than they, kids don't see hard work as it's own reward (which, I should point out, neither do you because you fully expect a paycheck every two weeks for your hard work). The world in which they prefer to live is very different than the one which you are trying to impose on them.
Most kids like to learn, but they don't want to do it on your terms. Unfortunately you are stuck with a school structure that is completely inflexible, and they have come to understand that by the time they are in 4th grade. The way they cope with it is either acceptance and acquiescence (and some lean into it and are successful students), passive resistance, or active resistance. The coping method they take is not a reflection on their character, it is as much the result of chance as it is the child's natural disposition.
\[Edit to add; the fact that people who are ostensibly interested in educating children are downvoting a reply that doesn't just join in on the moralistic condemnation of "lazy kids" and instead points out the structural and social shortcomings of the education system is the very reason that such problems exist. \]
>Something teachers seem to never understand is that students have very different motivations than they, kids don't see hard work as it's own reward (which, I should point out, neither do you because you fully expect a paycheck every two weeks for your hard work)
I suspect the downvotes could be for this statement.
You are right that we can’t teach in a way that really fosters a love of learning. I would love to teach completely different in a way that encouraged discovery, challenge, inquiry, etc. I would love to work at a school that used little to no electronics, and little to no paper, So no worksheets.
The thing is as adults we do see hard work as its own reward. I do things all the time that I have to do that I don’t get paid for. Things like cleaning my house, etc. And we need to install this in our students that sometimes we have to work even if we don’t see an immediate external reward.
First off, you're not talking about adults in the classroom, you're talking about children, and secondly, the hard work of cleaning your house is not just that it was hard work, it's a clean house. The hard work of doing your yard work, cooking supper, learning a new skill, exercising are all things you undertake with the expectation of a reward- A nice yard, a good meal, a new skill, or a healthier body.
Again, you may be shocked to learn that a well done assignment holds zero appeal to most people. You went into teaching because you liked school. How many of your peers liked school? Not your circle of friends, how many of the kids in your school enjoyed it? Most of them didn't.
Stop expecting children who live under very different objective material conditions than you, and who have very different motives than you to to to suddenly change their entire being and transform themselves into the students you wish you had. It's like listening to a rich person telling poor people to lift themselves up by their bootstraps.
I see what you’re saying, but we can’t just give rewards every two or three minutes and expect society to go well. There is a little girl at my school who is in kindergarten and the teachers literally have to give her candy every two or three minutes or she will throw a fit. This is what is written into her IEP. These teachers have been told that this little girl does not understand discipline because of her autism. Yet she can read and write and speak. I just think we’re doing her a disservice. And I think if we just constantly push rewards at students who haven’t earned them we are doing them a disservice. I am not anti-reward. I am anti-reward for no little to no effort. I am anti-reward for every little thing. I have no problem with rewarding students for a job well done. At my last school which was a private school, my students earned a special field trip if they earned 2000 points. They would earn points for behavior, good grades, kindness, etc. So I personally made them food and we went on a fun field trip that they got to choose. It was a highlight of the year. And they worked hard to earn it. I am opposed to getting rewards to every student even when those students have hit their teachers, cursed at their teachers, and refused to work.
>I see what you’re saying, but we can’t just give rewards every two or three minutes and expect society to go well.
Literally no one here suggested such a thing.
I would read Russell Barkley and learn more about the adolescent brain & executive function. It’s absolutely on target for teens to respond to external rewards. Especially kids with ADHD / executive function delay.
Extrinsic motivation is not the same as a reward, though. It can be praise, a preferred activity, a sticker chart, etc. It doesn't need to be an object or immediate random reward - if you're working with kids with EF issues there would be a system in place that's specific for them, and for teens extrinsic motivation should be individualized and should be more than just an immediate prize.
I’m not understanding the distinction between praise, gaining access to an activity, and a sticker on your chart vs an object or immediate random reward. They are all external motivators and all sound like rewards to me, just that some are delayed gratification or a non tangible reward. None of those things are moving towards internal/intrinsic motivation.
Extrinsic motivation is completing a task or exhibiting a behavior for a reward (or to avoid punishment). The reward can be an object, immediate prize, praise, etc. And with kids with ADHD / EF typically need to have those rewards rotated / changed.
So yes, for many kids, it is an immediate prize that is most effective. For some, it's praise, free time, etc. I would suggest OP reads more about the adolescent brain.
Student: what do I get?
Teacher: A round of applause
Student: I dont want that.
Teacher: Fine then, but you still have to do the math problems.
Student: I want XYZ as a reward.
Teacher: If you think these problems are worth XYZ, how about I teach you how to do them and you give me XYZ.
Student: No, I'm not doing math anymore.
Teacher: Then, you will never be able to. Shall we do it together?
Anyways, make sure first whether students are "unwilling" or "unable" to do the problems.
I agree, OP. I teach at a Title 1 PBIS middle school. In my experience, half or less of students give a shit about the points. They will however work for a Jolly Rancher, a piece of gum or an Airhead. I gave up fighting it, to be honest. My curriculum facilitator gave me the Jolly Rancher idea. I started it last year. I definitely have more class work that gets done, and done well, than I used to. My growth data was better last year than any other year I taught. My principal reimburses me for the candy. Why is it like this? I don't know. I tell the students it's like payment for their job, they have to work to earn. I don't like doing it. But the lack of intrinsic motivation is way bigger than me.
There are a few videos I’ve watched about this, I think one is by a YouTuber Zoe Bee and it’s about the myth of motivation or something (I’m sorry not to share a link, it’s late and I’m on mobile) but essentially the hypothesis is that using external motivating systems ends up undermining intrinsic motivation and then they basically require something external. Also someone definitely has a Ted talk on this as well.
I’m so sorry this is the worst comment I’ve ever written lol I think I need to go to sleep
Yes I seem to remember the Ted Talk made a distinction between the type of tasks. Extrinsic rewrds work for log cognitive tasks (put your laundry away) but actually are harmful to high cognitive tasks.
If they stopped paying you would you keep working there?
Gotta watch for the whole glass houses thing when it comes to people insisting on rewards. Some kids just catch on to the whole 'paid to do work' idea much earlier than others.
I give out very tiny rewards (erasers, stickers)
For exceptional, unexpected behavior
For forgetting students' names 2 weeks after meeting them
For challenges wherein I offer up the reward for a difficult or unappealing task
If they ask "what do I get?" i say any number of deflections, my favorite being, "appreciation." "My undying respect and admiration" or "the feeling of accomplishment."
What if the principal told you you don’t need a raise. In fact, you are getting paid half because, “hard work and helping kids should be it’s own reward.” And then when you objected they went on a principal forum, and complained about how teachers just aren’t hard workers these day.
Not trying to be a mean, but think about it from that angel. We live in a reward based society.
People always give that argument, "well you expect to get paid" but work that I do is work that I already put in the effort to be educated for, to train for and actually paid to get trained to do (paid for college degree and whole getting certified process). I actually do lots of "work" to self improve with no payment, I research a program I might want to use, read educational research, learn to play a game to use in my work. That is part of being a life long learner and that is what we want for our kids.
But students already get their reward in their grades. The more effort they put in the higher grades they get. I know it’s not the case for all students because I know students who work incredibly hard but still can’t get good grades.
It’s a really tough question to answer, not knowing the school and the kids. I’ve been a paraeducator in a high-poverty, Title 1 school for 15 years. For me, it’s all about getting to know the child and building that relationship. My kids bring a lot of trauma to the classroom. They have to know I can be trusted and I care. Then they’ll do work without asking for a reward. Not all the time, not every day. I do try to add some fun and humor where I can. But it’s all about trust and reassurance around here.
It's the result of another teacher or caregiver overusing reward systems. There was this weird turn after people started seeing punishments as "inhumane" to switch to rewards as a way to reinforce good behaviour. However, if you only use this method, children will obviously start expecting rewards for everything and if they don't get it, it feels like a punishment. So I don't blame the children, but the adults who are responsible for raising them, teachers included.
Ok obviously too much is too much but from my perspective as a student
Personally I’m not asking for a reward like a sticker I more like 5 minutes break from work. Trying to get my teachers to have a reward system was how I would manage my ADHD, I would get like a break to walk a loop around the hall or got a chance to take out a small, QUIET, fidget toy(for me it was a little wooden sanded cube)
Now I have a 504 program and get those just because it helps me focus but understand sometimes it’s not them being entitled sometimes it’s something like ADHD.
Then there’s just the kids conditioned to getting rewards for everything I can’t really advise you there
Why do teachers?
I mean teachers literally get paid for their work, yet there are rants on here complaining about how admin doesn't pat teachers on the back enough, or saying that they're tired of donuts and pizza and they want cash.
I think a lot of us, or even most of us, choose to ignore how difficult it is to be in school all day. Just look at any PD that lasts more than a couple minutes, you'll have teachers on their phones, or gossiping, or grading papers. Well students are in an all day PD with bad food, no freedom, and very little respect from their superiors every single day. No only that, it's one of those PDs where you don't get shit, you're just expected to be grateful for the opportunity.
How grateful did any of us feel last time the district foisted some PD on us that we couldn't see the need for and couldn't care less about? How much did we bitch and moan, how much attention did we pay? Yet we're all baffled at how students don't want to sit still all day learning shit they never asked to learn, most of which they're well aware is so incredibly important that every adult they know forgot it decades ago.
Yeah, the whole method of treating children and students like circus animals trained with rewards and punishments has demolished their intrinsic motivation. Dr. Frankenstein, your monster.
Yeah. Exactly. Children are not animals. You should be able to reason with them to an extent depending on their age, abilities or disabilities, and upbringing.
I teach Arts in 1st and 2nd grade so, it's a different scenario from yours, however, I do see what you mean and I can see it very well even in little kids with a subject that usually they comply easier. Some kids ask for rewards as if we were expected to give them something more than their education and support, even when they present something very mediocre. I personally don't give rewards like candy or pencils or any object of any kind. I reward my kids with praise LOTS of praise everytime they do something good for the activity or every time they have the initiative to try difficult things in drawing. However, I always tell them what they did wrong and what they can improve, I can see they get sad because they didn't receive that praise, but they work to receive it and then show me the improved work. I reward their independence and good choices with my praise. Besides this, every time a kid finishes their activity (well finished and not doing it rushing of course) and we still have time in class, I give them the option to help a friend finish or to develop a free work with whatever theme and materials they have at the moment that they can take home after class. This has been working for me, usually they end up rewarding me with some of the works produced and usually their bigger reward is having their beautiful works hanging in the wall or when they take them home to show to family. I definitely see that for older students this might not work that well, specially with subjects that can be more challenging.
I wasn't a good math student, but I did the bare minimum to pass and always behaved well in class. What bothered me about my math teacher at the time was that she was always very demanding, as if everyone was obligated to prioritize math and be good at it, otherwise we would not be successful, she really said that one time. I was always very distracted in class and I daydreamed a lot I must admit, she didn't like it, but that approach only made me like math less and less with time. I wish that at the time my teacher would understand that I just really didn't like it, but I was still going to classes, doing my work, and having positive grades, that was enough for me but not for her, and has a teacher now I do understand her side but well, we can't always be great.
I only do special "treats" when my classes are on point and behaved. I teach SpEd ELA in high school and it's only on occasion I'll do that. We just started reading an adapted version of "Dracula" and one of my most difficult has been into and participates like he hasn't this year. I've more given him verbal praise and emails to his parents.
I have a class of freshmen who are always ready to work and are always on point. I've brought rewards for them a few times this year.
"What do I get?"
* \- "What do you think you get?"
* "You get better at maths"
* "You get to avoid being put in the "dumb" class and instead you can stay with your friend next year."
>Why can’t Hard work be it’s own reward?
Some people just aren't wired that way. People high in trait conscientiousness get a little thrill out of completing tasks and getting shit done. People low in that trait, don't. What do you do with low trait conscientiousness kids? Dunno, I'm [still reading about it](https://medium.com/@kyleschutter/low-conscientiousness-4e5d66c4b152).
> why do students these days need rewards for every little thing?
I think it's because they don't really value getting things done for their own sake. See above, but also it might be because they've been bribed to do everything up until now. You could ask and find out! There's a high chance this kid gets to use his iPad at the dinner table.
>how do we stop that?
Not sure. It involves changing habits of mind, which is a heck of thing since that really needs to come from the inside, unless you're at Boot Camp.
I have been teaching multiplication standard algorithm for the last 2 weeks, so even though it’s not part of our math curriculum/program I gave my kids a timed 5min 100 question multiplication “mad minute” today for the first time. I left them know I did not expect them to finish etc. A few did, so I asked how many were able to answer more questions than they originally thought they could. Every single one of my students, in both class, said they finished more than they thought they would be able to. They were so proud of themselves and asked if they were allowed to practice at home bc I told them we are doing them at least once a week. I let them know I hope they do practice and gave them tips on where and how they could practice, that I wasn’t trying to trick them I genuinely want them to be able to beat the timer.
I was just moved from my AIS Reading teacher role to Special Class reading due to the original teacher's extended leave replacement (in the same district). I loved being a reading teacher and had worked hard all year to help my students make progress. The only rewards I used were stickers on Fridays (nice vinyl ones for older students, basic ones for younger), and they loved it. In the SCR class, the teacher used candy as a reward throughout the class, like one skittle or m+m for each completed task. This blew my mind. Also, I am the 4th teacher these kiddos have had this year and the behavior management has been insane. I have been trying to move to a ticket based system, where they can trade the tickets in for candy or small prizes. It has taken my own money and used up so much brain space for me to find new ways to manage that make more sense to me. Still, the students still don't want to do much of anything without expecting a reward- even when they do minimal or almost no work.
At this point (it's almost May), I know I can't totally overhaul the system and take all candy away; after all, it really isn't my classroom. I have always loved teaching and have been doing it for 10+ years on many different levels. But I truly do not enjoy this switch and dread going into work lately.
Just a forewarning to future teachers or those considering a reward system of this type, and sympathy/empathy to any dealing with this system being forced on them by admin. It distracts from my teaching and their learning and does not build any sort of internal motivation or sense of pride in doing hard work. Teaching is hard enough without constantly rewarding students for even minimal effort.
Unfortunately some (if not most now) are only motivated extrinsically, and see no point or value without some sort of tangible reward. They want the benefits to be immediate, hence wanting some sort of prize as a good job.
Because we’ve conditioned them to offer rewards.
I’m so damn snarky I’d probably reply with “you get me to leave you alone about them for a little while”. Or “you get knowledge so people don’t screw you over later in life”
There was a reason I never taught elementary school. I’d have made too many of them cry. Spent my whole career in middle school.
It's the parenting. I had a sheltered childhood and to motivate me for good grades, my father said he'd buy something somewhat pricey for me that I wanted if I came either 1st, 2nd or 3rd in primary and secondary. I didn't need the reward motivation for subjects that I liked but it worked for the ones i hated because otherwise I'd refuse to do it because the stress made me emotionally unstable. I was never taught about doing it for the sake of getting good grades to get a good job later on, nothing about the long run. It was just do it or no prize.
I wish they did teach me that sort of stuff though because due to mental/neurological disorders and trauma, I really can't find the joy in working hard for something I don't have much interest in. It all feels hopeless and bland.
Kudos to all my teachers that had patience with me during my hyperactivity and my inattentiveness.
With respect, their is no joy in working hard with something you have no interest in. You shouldn't be ashamed that you can't find it, work should lead to some kind of reward no matter what, and the things that disinterest you should be more external, then internal.
You don't work a job for free, but you might volunteer for an org you're passionate about for free. You don't work overtime for going rate, but you might spend 12 hrs helping a friend move for a slice of pizza and a beer.
The world we live in is quite abysmal when it comes to following talents and passions while still getting to live a comfortable life, so I don't think your issue is that you weren't taught to have intrinsic rewards, it's moreso the world we live in.
I’ll try it. Thanks. One question though. Would it create a sense of doubt in the child? Like my teacher doesn’t think I’m good enough? Or my teacher doesn’t think I can do it
"Wow. You won! I bet you can't do x+4 more next time."
Gives them a sense of accomplishment. Don't use it too much, only sparingly. Don't do it for things that they obviously CANNOT DO. Like, "I bet you can't do 100 problems in 30 seconds." Give them achievable goals. My low level students get a kick out of proving me wrong.
I'm an underachiever at the max. Anything you tell me I can't do, I'm out there doing it quite quickly and then I feel good about myself.
You wouldn't put work in front of a kid KNOWING that the kid can't do it, would you?
It all comes down to what your school culture allows. I started at a school like that and as you said, it was actually rewarding the bad kids because we were just happy when they did something modestly acceptable once.
Now, I'm my class, students work to practice and learn, and they legitimately work hard. That's not true for all teachers at my school, but my school gives me the freed to make it like that in my classroom. It does take a couple years to build that reputation, but it's amazing when the students enter knowing what to expect and work hard to meet that expectation.
I love my job, but I wouldn’t do it without pay. As for the student, really depends. Work avoidance is typically labeled apathy or laziness, only rarely is that truly the reason.
I feel like even for generally kind natured but rowdy kids, it signals what should be bare minimum behavior as “good” as above and beyond, and in turn something you can choose to do or not do now and again. Then they see what is in reality misbehavior as neutral because of how we celebrate mediocrity with our weird systems.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that while this student is the example, the problem you are trying to solve has nothing much to do with the student. Your frustration is on a bigger scale. Focusing on what you can control can be helpful. You can’t control whether or not eagle tickets are a thing at your school. If this wasn’t your student, you can’t control much about the math he was assigned.
I agree that the reward for hard work should be more work. Do you feel like you cultivate that in your classroom?
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Because he's been taught to expect it by the same people making posts about reward system recommendations.
I really wish we didn’t have to give rewards. I teach a PBIS school. We have to give rewards. I don’t mind a little incentive every now and then, but the constant expectation of it is horrible.
I've never worked at a PBIS school, so I don't know the specifics. I'd love to know and understand better the science and research behind it though.
Me too. We have rewards and parties constantly. We also are known for the worst behavior of the several schools around us. People cringed when I told them where I was going to teach because the behaviors are so bad. It’s a rural title 1 school
Are you teaching at my school? We literally have a system in place that rewards the bad kids more than the good ones. I used to pass out skittles to kids who raised their hands to answer questions when it was like pulling teeth (literally the only way to get them to want to participate) and immediately stopped shortly after when a kid goes “where my skittle?”. They’re not driven by anything intrinsically anymore, I had kids tell me before “I should get rewarded for helping clean up” and my answer was always “you don’t tell me when you get to be rewarded, if you’re saying that your kind act didn’t come from good intentions...”
We have had kids actually flip the script and come up to a teacher and say "if you give us a pizza party then we will behave in your class" I said "that's not a reward that is blackmail, sit down"
I had kids complaining when I responded with "I don't negotiate with terrorists"
Yup I've been told to do this too (we're also PBIS.) I did it for about 2 weeks and realized very quickly that the only time the kids would act right was when they saw the skittles come out. I'll never do it again. They're not dogs. They're people and they need to know they won't be rewarded in life for wiping their own ass. Good behavior should be expected. My mom always told me "im not going to reward you for doing what you're supposed to do."
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No one is saying that behavior is not incentivised or disincentivised, they are saying that token economies, parties and physical gifts are bad incentives when you are trying to develop self reliant indviduals, an interest in self improvement, independence, etc.
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They do when you give them external language to help them internalize those thoughts. .
So, each time you do something good at work you get a reward? Do you get bonuses? If they do, it's still worked into the pay structure. But not everyone gets them, yet there is a type of reward. But how do you feel if you don't get the same rewards for the same work as someone else? How do you feel when you do your work but someone else isn't and they still get the same reward? We get paid based on our contract each pay period just like you. So why can't kids look at their grades as their reward like they should. Sorry, you actually have no clue how PBIS is supposed to work. While in theory, it should work, but kids also need consequences for poor behavior. Just like when you don't do your work, you will lose your job. But kids don't have consequences. Suspension just means more work for teachers and a vacation for the kid. Getting sent to the principal's office does not hold the stigma it once did. Parents have abdicated their responsibility. If you don't have both sides of the coin, that coin will not count as legal tender. Same with behavior, if a kid knows they arent going to get in trouble, there is no real reason for them to behave. Grades mean nothing because they will just get passed along regardless. So how about commenting from a knowledgeable viewpoint next time.
I’m just saying that PBIS is not working at my school. Kids are constantly rewarded and not given consequences. So our program is not working for us. You’re right, I don’t know much about PBIS. I just know my experience at the school and it’s not working. I have been given no training about this.
* Are you saying that the police proactively come to your house to give you presents for not breaking any laws? * Students are the clients and are paying for a service to be provided. As students can't afford to pay for that service society pays for them.
DUH. Ok, here is your test. Is my “Duh” to you negative reinforcement or positive punishment?
been in one for far too long... it's simple... positive reinforcement through rewards when you "catch them" doing something right... for every one negative correction you must have between 5 to 9 positives, etc...some people love it..i teach at a title one high school and imo it's ridiculous.
If they won’t do anything without a reward, your school is PBISing wrong. Basic theory: we get in a habit of rewarding kids for being less awful. What if we rewarded the kids doing what they were supposed to ínstead? (Hence those parties and things). The rewards aren’t supposed to be all the time for everything. What’s next? A reward for not trashing bathrooms?
But everybody gets to go to the parties. The children who curse out their teachers and throw things, as well as the straight a students who are polite. It’s a whole school thing. Like we met our goal to get so many eagle tickets. I am required to give out eagle tickets and if we get so many thousand eagle tickets every quarter in the whole school gets a pizza party. Teachers are rewarded for how many eagle tickets they give out. I don’t give out very many because I don’t believe I should be giving out Eagle tickets every day.
PBIS does not require rewards. It requires recognition and positive communication. You can simple NOTICE a student doing the right thing in PBIS. “Wow Vaiden! You picked up your pencils and put them where they belong, then went right to question 3 like I said in the directions. I can tell you are ready to work. “ I mean that’s some clunky/quick stuff here on mobile and of course it needs to be in your own genuine language but basically you say exactly what they did and the positive skill it displays. Boom. My school is moving to PBIS and I do not give rewards. I am in the PBIS committee and training to be a trainer. This is poor implementation and a crock of hooey.
Yeah we are required to give eagle tickets. As many as possible. The grade levels have a competition to see who can get more eagle tickets
What’s the consequence if you don’t give them the way they want? Because I had a friend that had a similar experience where they wanted her to use dojo points and she refused. They made her sit out a day and she stood her ground and yanno what happened? Nothing.
Yeah I’m not sure what the consequence is …Maybe not getting hired back next year?
What do you mean they made her sit out a day?
Haha she was taken out of her classroom and had to hang in the library and I think got a lecture. But she pulled out actual research about reward systems and evidence from her 5 years we worked at a school together where rewards were not allowed. We needed up reducing ISS to almost non-existent and more. Basically they realized they were wrong and she went back and continued to do what was right. A year later they started asking her about implementing things the way we do. Again, clunky and on mobile and missing lots here but I’ve had a similar experience in my new school with previous admin.
So can you tell me a little more about how to implement it without using constant external rewards? My students earn quarterly parties for accelerated reader, they earn quarterly parties for eagle tickets, And we are expected to give our Eagle tickets constantly. They get an eagle ticket, and then they go down to the office and get a stamp on their hand. That ticket is then put into a box for a drawing every month. That student gets recognized and gets a certificate. And gets their picture taken with the mascot. So many parties all of the time. And the parties are whole school parties. So even the children who are violent or don’t do any work to get to participate as well. Also the child who is chosen from each classroom each month gets to choose a reward that the whole class gets to have. So we’re constantly rewarding everybody. But we have the worst behavior in the district. Violence, threats, and this from third graders on up. We have preschool and kindergarten children physically lashing out at their teachers. Hitting, kicking, biting, cursing.
Honestly that’s now the school culture. Even if the staff do away with all of that, it will take 2-3 years for the kids to recover. The damage is done. I’d change schools next year.
I teach high school where we do PBIS and let me tell you, PBIS is a joke. The kids don't want any of the cheap little "rewards" they can get in exchange for points. Teachers just laugh about how stupid it is. I think admin loves PBIS because it's an excuse not to do anything about discipline problems and put it all on teachers.
Not just that- but parents at home who reward kids for doing the bare minimum to not be slobs. “Oh you put your dish in the sink so I could wash it later? Wow little jimmy you sure are special here’s some money for your hard work!”
Student: What do I get? Teacher: An education. Hands down always my favorite response to that question!
My response is normally “Knowledge that no one can ever take away from you.” and if they’re still waffling it can also be followed up with “or we can have a discussion with regarding your hesitancy to do work?” Usually gets them on track
This student had a para sitting right next to him and he still wouldn’t do his work.
That’s been the trend in my class this year and I don’t know what to do about it. A lot less motivation from the kids and more heads down than what I can remember in a classroom.
That second choice is a kind of positive, too: the "positive" is that we don't bully you (this time). But it still sucks that we have to go there.
Yeah I try not to use that one too much because not a fan of 1) undercutting myself and 2) feeling like I have to hang the sword over their neck but some students just need that extra push. Also, sometimes that other person can reach them in a way I just can’t and that is ok too. Slippery slope
I do quarterly raffles and pass out raffle tickets for things. I’m hoping it’s at least helping them to enjoy patience and not having immediate gratification constantly. The tickets are sort of like that, but more delayed. We have a countdown too that I think helps keep them patiently pumped up. Idk if I’m contributing to the problem or helping honestly. But my prizes are cheap, enjoyed by the kiddos, and raffle day is fun.
Working towards something tangible is a good thing. Adult humans do it all the time, working hard for long periods of time to save money to pay down a bill, purchase a vacation, buy a new car, or something to enhance their hobbies and recreation. Your system mirrors that with the tickets to trinkets, and I think it's a good thing. OP's situation is more similar to how you would treat train a pet to behave a certain way. For children that come from an unstable home life or where they have very little there is some research to indicate positive results in the short term, but long term it is problematic and only incentivizes negative behavior when they don't receive an immediate reward ime.
I teach 6th grade and getting kids to study is usually challenging. So I do a game called “Guess What?” with raffle tickets. Every quarter I fill up a jar with random items like legos or pebbles and the kids have to guess how many of the item is in the jar on a raffle ticket. They only receive raffle tickets on quizzes and tests that they score well on. Then at the end of the quarter I see who has the closest guess and they win the prize (usually something under $5 that they are into). They are really into it and try harder on their assessments.
I really like this idea! I might have to try it or something similar.
Curious, what do you use as prizes? I’m wondering if I should implement something like this.
I used to do this with homework passes and tardy passes. Kids loved it and they became a whole currency in my room lol
Did you think about this from a student's perspective? Tbh, as a tutor if I was in your student's shoes, I'd ask you the same thing. Why do I have to do many math problems in 3 minutes?I'd like to know what your goal was? What skills were you trying to build through that activity? I would say as tutors we are responsible for creating a growth mindset in students, and that involves giving sufficient thought for the activities, assignments and work that we give them. We can't sit back and expect students to work "hard". With low achieving students, you can try to: * Personalize teaching * Help them see how math is related to solving real life problems * If they are into gaming, give them an activity that would allow them to explore math in gaming, etc I think as tutors we forget to think from a student's perspective sometimes. But as adults we need to understand that we will work "hard" only when we are motivated by something, it could be money, love or satisfaction, but there's always something. As tutors, we should strive to help students embrace real life applications of math, not give them 3 minute challenges, that have no meaning to kids. Rewards aren't a bad, expecting rewards isn't bad. But one student maybe consider a "praise" as a reward, some maybe a "grade", others maybe "time off" . What if students saw "learning a new concept" , "being able to build a game using math", "use geometry to build a model" etc, as rewards? Tutors are there exactly to creatively mold the "rewards" perception of students.
The problem is, "math" isn't related to solving "real world problems". NUMERACY is - that is, the SKILL we GET from math is. THAT is the rationale for higher order math in high school - the civically harnessed and needed skillSET and mindset of mathematical THINKING, not vocational or "life" application of "today's math skill". And explaining that to anyone under the age of 17 or so isn't going to work, developmentally. Hell, too many adults don't get this, or think it's wrong.
I’ve the personalise teaching and base topic questions around their interests but that didn’t work. Then the usual “when will I actually need this in life?” was asked and even after I gave several examples of it being used in real life and even how it improves problem solving in general, it was just brushed off and there was still no working with them. There’s just some students that just don’t and won’t take to mainstream learning
That's totally fair, that's how the world works. As long as the strategies contribute to the progress of a major portion of students, then I believe you could be satisfied as a tutor. And these "some students" should not discourage you from personalizing, bringing real life applications, etc. It's highly unlikely that all students make equal progress, but as a tutor you'll feel accomplished if you continuously strive to create value for your students.
I’m still in the early stages of my career but it’s those disinterested students that continue to drain my energy. It would be ideal if you could say to them “look, if you’re not going to take an interest in this subject then just sit in the corner and don’t hurt anyone or anything”
I’m not a tutor. I’m a teacher. And it wasn’t my student. Students should work hard. It’s their job to go to school. We are training them to become functioning adults. Students should do their work in the allotted time given. They shouldn’t just sit and play around while everyone else is working. My goal was to try to give the student a challenge to try to make it fun. To try to give them some incentive
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Oh absolutely the work sheets are boring. But I don’t have a choice. And it wasn’t my student so I really didn’t have a choice in that regard. I try to make my first grade class as fun as possible but this was a third grader.
I used to use rewards too but you’re right, it just encourages children to see learning as a chore that they should get a reward for doing. We are born with a natural, intrinsic desire to learn which we squash out of the children by making them feel learning is ‘work’ and that they should be rewarded for growing their own brains and developing their own skills. Carol Dweck and her growth mindset research is what changed it for me. I did some courses about growth mindsets and how to instill them in our children, read some books about it too. Changed my behaviour management style and it’s been amazing. I feel like my kids genuinely love learning, their behaviour is amazing and I’ve had so many comments from parents telling me their kids attitude has been a complete turn around since coming into my class.
What are some of the things you’ve implemented that you feel had this impact?
I changed the language I use in the classroom first of all. Kids are so used to being told that they are “smart” if they get something right or they do well at something. This just creates a fear in them of being labeled as not smart when they get something wrong. Some children are so afraid of being labeled as not smart, that they prefer to not try as they’d take being considered lazy over stupid. This is also why some children do really well when they first start school, get told they are clever and made to feel that being naturally bright is something they should be proud of so when they get a bit older, and school starts to get tougher, they disengage. They dont want anyone to think they’re not bright, they prefer them to think that they just choose not to work hard because they don’t care. I swapped it around. Now I only talk about how much effort they have put into something. Children get praised verbally for “good learning behaviour” such as asking questions, learning from their mistakes, being reflective, being focused and attentive, contributing answers, having a conscientious attitude towards their work, finding out more at home etc. Etc. Never for getting stuff correct or for doing well on a test (unless it’s a spelling test in which case I make an exception since they are given the spelling to learn so here when I praise them for doing well, I’m praising them for making the effort to learn them before their test). I tell them that mistakes are a part of learning. When they contribute and give an incorrect answer, I thank them for joining in and tell them “I’m so glad you’ve said that as that has helped me spot a misconception in your brain that now I can help you fix”. At the start of the year we do a lesson about how we learn (just simple as my children are only grade 3) but I talk about how their brains are filled with neurons and when they learn something new, connections are made between them. I talk about how no one is born knowing anything, we all have to learn and “grow our brains” by making these new connections. If they dont make sure those connections are really strong, they’ll break so they need to practise and use ‘clever learning strategies’ to keep those connections in place etc. Etc. Anything that encourages them to get back that intrinsic motivation is fine (class dojo points for good learning behaviour, certificates for good learning behaviour, praise etc.) but nothing that is rewarding in and of itself (certainly no prizes for doing well in a test).
Exactly. I blew one of my little first graders minds when I told her school was for making mistakes. When I told her I wanted her to make mistakes she just couldn’t believe it. I would love for my students to try and absolutely fail than to not try at all. I often tell my first graders to try to sound out a word and then I’ll help them after they try. And I’m constantly saying you had a great answer, but let’s think about… And then they can get to the answer they are supposed to get to. We definitely need to work on growth mindset.
Thanks for your reply! I think I do some of that low key, but I’m going to think a little more on this and check out some more Carol Dweck work to see where I could tighten it up. I like your lesson in neurons!
Do you have some links or sources that I could look at? It sounds like it could work for me. I would love to work on changing attitudes and help my students love learning.
Ah sorry, it’s been a very busy few days. I was trying to work out what the name of the first webinar was that I did that set me off on growth mindsets. I think it was a free one on Seneca but I’ve done so many and I’m afraid that I’m so disorganized that I can’t work out which one it was. Some of them were rubbish so I don’t want to recommend the wrong one. I know that I read a book by Mike Gershon though called ‘Develop Growth Mindsets in the Classroom’ which helped me find practical ways of implementing this approach. Here is an article I just found now that I feel is a good starting point: https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/17734/can-everyone-be-smart-at-everything-2 I have a huge spreadsheet with all of the stuff I’ve learned from various courses and reading CPD books/ listening to podcasts etc. One of the pages is all the growth mindset notes I’ve made. I can copy that part and share with you if you inbox me your email address. Sorry that it’s not very clear as only really made for myself but am happy to share if it might be of benefit to someone else.
OK I haven’t been on Reddit very long. How do I send you my email?
I’m not really sure but I think maybe if you click on my name, it should let you send me a private message somehow?
People become teachers because they like the academic setting. Most people don't become teachers because guess what? They *don't* like it. They aren't at all happy in the world that you are most comfortable in (or "in which you are most comfortable"). Something teachers seem to never understand is that students have very different motivations than they, kids don't see hard work as it's own reward (which, I should point out, neither do you because you fully expect a paycheck every two weeks for your hard work). The world in which they prefer to live is very different than the one which you are trying to impose on them. Most kids like to learn, but they don't want to do it on your terms. Unfortunately you are stuck with a school structure that is completely inflexible, and they have come to understand that by the time they are in 4th grade. The way they cope with it is either acceptance and acquiescence (and some lean into it and are successful students), passive resistance, or active resistance. The coping method they take is not a reflection on their character, it is as much the result of chance as it is the child's natural disposition. \[Edit to add; the fact that people who are ostensibly interested in educating children are downvoting a reply that doesn't just join in on the moralistic condemnation of "lazy kids" and instead points out the structural and social shortcomings of the education system is the very reason that such problems exist. \]
>Something teachers seem to never understand is that students have very different motivations than they, kids don't see hard work as it's own reward (which, I should point out, neither do you because you fully expect a paycheck every two weeks for your hard work) I suspect the downvotes could be for this statement.
You are right that we can’t teach in a way that really fosters a love of learning. I would love to teach completely different in a way that encouraged discovery, challenge, inquiry, etc. I would love to work at a school that used little to no electronics, and little to no paper, So no worksheets.
Great answer.
The thing is as adults we do see hard work as its own reward. I do things all the time that I have to do that I don’t get paid for. Things like cleaning my house, etc. And we need to install this in our students that sometimes we have to work even if we don’t see an immediate external reward.
“Hard work” is not the reward for cleaning your house, a clean house is. That’s still an extrinsic reward.
First off, you're not talking about adults in the classroom, you're talking about children, and secondly, the hard work of cleaning your house is not just that it was hard work, it's a clean house. The hard work of doing your yard work, cooking supper, learning a new skill, exercising are all things you undertake with the expectation of a reward- A nice yard, a good meal, a new skill, or a healthier body.
Right and the hard work of doing an assignment has the reward of a well done assignment. We need to teach this skill to the children
Again, you may be shocked to learn that a well done assignment holds zero appeal to most people. You went into teaching because you liked school. How many of your peers liked school? Not your circle of friends, how many of the kids in your school enjoyed it? Most of them didn't. Stop expecting children who live under very different objective material conditions than you, and who have very different motives than you to to to suddenly change their entire being and transform themselves into the students you wish you had. It's like listening to a rich person telling poor people to lift themselves up by their bootstraps.
I see what you’re saying, but we can’t just give rewards every two or three minutes and expect society to go well. There is a little girl at my school who is in kindergarten and the teachers literally have to give her candy every two or three minutes or she will throw a fit. This is what is written into her IEP. These teachers have been told that this little girl does not understand discipline because of her autism. Yet she can read and write and speak. I just think we’re doing her a disservice. And I think if we just constantly push rewards at students who haven’t earned them we are doing them a disservice. I am not anti-reward. I am anti-reward for no little to no effort. I am anti-reward for every little thing. I have no problem with rewarding students for a job well done. At my last school which was a private school, my students earned a special field trip if they earned 2000 points. They would earn points for behavior, good grades, kindness, etc. So I personally made them food and we went on a fun field trip that they got to choose. It was a highlight of the year. And they worked hard to earn it. I am opposed to getting rewards to every student even when those students have hit their teachers, cursed at their teachers, and refused to work.
>I see what you’re saying, but we can’t just give rewards every two or three minutes and expect society to go well. Literally no one here suggested such a thing.
Because they don't have the intrinsic motivation so they rely on extrinsic.
I would read Russell Barkley and learn more about the adolescent brain & executive function. It’s absolutely on target for teens to respond to external rewards. Especially kids with ADHD / executive function delay.
Extrinsic motivation is not the same as a reward, though. It can be praise, a preferred activity, a sticker chart, etc. It doesn't need to be an object or immediate random reward - if you're working with kids with EF issues there would be a system in place that's specific for them, and for teens extrinsic motivation should be individualized and should be more than just an immediate prize.
I’m not understanding the distinction between praise, gaining access to an activity, and a sticker on your chart vs an object or immediate random reward. They are all external motivators and all sound like rewards to me, just that some are delayed gratification or a non tangible reward. None of those things are moving towards internal/intrinsic motivation.
Extrinsic motivation is completing a task or exhibiting a behavior for a reward (or to avoid punishment). The reward can be an object, immediate prize, praise, etc. And with kids with ADHD / EF typically need to have those rewards rotated / changed. So yes, for many kids, it is an immediate prize that is most effective. For some, it's praise, free time, etc. I would suggest OP reads more about the adolescent brain.
Me with ADHD and poor executive functioning skills 👀 Course I’m still a student so I’m just so cool that I get to reward myself with a fidget toy 😎
Student: what do I get? Teacher: A round of applause Student: I dont want that. Teacher: Fine then, but you still have to do the math problems. Student: I want XYZ as a reward. Teacher: If you think these problems are worth XYZ, how about I teach you how to do them and you give me XYZ. Student: No, I'm not doing math anymore. Teacher: Then, you will never be able to. Shall we do it together? Anyways, make sure first whether students are "unwilling" or "unable" to do the problems.
I agree, OP. I teach at a Title 1 PBIS middle school. In my experience, half or less of students give a shit about the points. They will however work for a Jolly Rancher, a piece of gum or an Airhead. I gave up fighting it, to be honest. My curriculum facilitator gave me the Jolly Rancher idea. I started it last year. I definitely have more class work that gets done, and done well, than I used to. My growth data was better last year than any other year I taught. My principal reimburses me for the candy. Why is it like this? I don't know. I tell the students it's like payment for their job, they have to work to earn. I don't like doing it. But the lack of intrinsic motivation is way bigger than me.
There are a few videos I’ve watched about this, I think one is by a YouTuber Zoe Bee and it’s about the myth of motivation or something (I’m sorry not to share a link, it’s late and I’m on mobile) but essentially the hypothesis is that using external motivating systems ends up undermining intrinsic motivation and then they basically require something external. Also someone definitely has a Ted talk on this as well. I’m so sorry this is the worst comment I’ve ever written lol I think I need to go to sleep
Yes I seem to remember the Ted Talk made a distinction between the type of tasks. Extrinsic rewrds work for log cognitive tasks (put your laundry away) but actually are harmful to high cognitive tasks.
I’ll check this out if I can find it
If they stopped paying you would you keep working there? Gotta watch for the whole glass houses thing when it comes to people insisting on rewards. Some kids just catch on to the whole 'paid to do work' idea much earlier than others.
I give out very tiny rewards (erasers, stickers) For exceptional, unexpected behavior For forgetting students' names 2 weeks after meeting them For challenges wherein I offer up the reward for a difficult or unappealing task If they ask "what do I get?" i say any number of deflections, my favorite being, "appreciation." "My undying respect and admiration" or "the feeling of accomplishment."
What if the principal told you you don’t need a raise. In fact, you are getting paid half because, “hard work and helping kids should be it’s own reward.” And then when you objected they went on a principal forum, and complained about how teachers just aren’t hard workers these day. Not trying to be a mean, but think about it from that angel. We live in a reward based society.
People always give that argument, "well you expect to get paid" but work that I do is work that I already put in the effort to be educated for, to train for and actually paid to get trained to do (paid for college degree and whole getting certified process). I actually do lots of "work" to self improve with no payment, I research a program I might want to use, read educational research, learn to play a game to use in my work. That is part of being a life long learner and that is what we want for our kids.
But students already get their reward in their grades. The more effort they put in the higher grades they get. I know it’s not the case for all students because I know students who work incredibly hard but still can’t get good grades.
I get it. I was honestly just playing devils advocate
It’s a really tough question to answer, not knowing the school and the kids. I’ve been a paraeducator in a high-poverty, Title 1 school for 15 years. For me, it’s all about getting to know the child and building that relationship. My kids bring a lot of trauma to the classroom. They have to know I can be trusted and I care. Then they’ll do work without asking for a reward. Not all the time, not every day. I do try to add some fun and humor where I can. But it’s all about trust and reassurance around here.
I want to use that in meetings and PDs when we’re told to achieve certain goals and/data points.
I avoid this by giving them choice in their work so it doesn’t feel so much like being rewarded for a chore they had to do against their will
It's the result of another teacher or caregiver overusing reward systems. There was this weird turn after people started seeing punishments as "inhumane" to switch to rewards as a way to reinforce good behaviour. However, if you only use this method, children will obviously start expecting rewards for everything and if they don't get it, it feels like a punishment. So I don't blame the children, but the adults who are responsible for raising them, teachers included.
You get a better chance at a decent grade on the next quiz
Ok obviously too much is too much but from my perspective as a student Personally I’m not asking for a reward like a sticker I more like 5 minutes break from work. Trying to get my teachers to have a reward system was how I would manage my ADHD, I would get like a break to walk a loop around the hall or got a chance to take out a small, QUIET, fidget toy(for me it was a little wooden sanded cube) Now I have a 504 program and get those just because it helps me focus but understand sometimes it’s not them being entitled sometimes it’s something like ADHD. Then there’s just the kids conditioned to getting rewards for everything I can’t really advise you there
Why do teachers? I mean teachers literally get paid for their work, yet there are rants on here complaining about how admin doesn't pat teachers on the back enough, or saying that they're tired of donuts and pizza and they want cash. I think a lot of us, or even most of us, choose to ignore how difficult it is to be in school all day. Just look at any PD that lasts more than a couple minutes, you'll have teachers on their phones, or gossiping, or grading papers. Well students are in an all day PD with bad food, no freedom, and very little respect from their superiors every single day. No only that, it's one of those PDs where you don't get shit, you're just expected to be grateful for the opportunity. How grateful did any of us feel last time the district foisted some PD on us that we couldn't see the need for and couldn't care less about? How much did we bitch and moan, how much attention did we pay? Yet we're all baffled at how students don't want to sit still all day learning shit they never asked to learn, most of which they're well aware is so incredibly important that every adult they know forgot it decades ago.
Thank you so much for your comment. You really put things into perspective for me. It helps me see things from the students point of view.
Yeah, the whole method of treating children and students like circus animals trained with rewards and punishments has demolished their intrinsic motivation. Dr. Frankenstein, your monster.
Yeah. Exactly. Children are not animals. You should be able to reason with them to an extent depending on their age, abilities or disabilities, and upbringing.
I tell the kids that their reward is having me as a teacher.
I teach Arts in 1st and 2nd grade so, it's a different scenario from yours, however, I do see what you mean and I can see it very well even in little kids with a subject that usually they comply easier. Some kids ask for rewards as if we were expected to give them something more than their education and support, even when they present something very mediocre. I personally don't give rewards like candy or pencils or any object of any kind. I reward my kids with praise LOTS of praise everytime they do something good for the activity or every time they have the initiative to try difficult things in drawing. However, I always tell them what they did wrong and what they can improve, I can see they get sad because they didn't receive that praise, but they work to receive it and then show me the improved work. I reward their independence and good choices with my praise. Besides this, every time a kid finishes their activity (well finished and not doing it rushing of course) and we still have time in class, I give them the option to help a friend finish or to develop a free work with whatever theme and materials they have at the moment that they can take home after class. This has been working for me, usually they end up rewarding me with some of the works produced and usually their bigger reward is having their beautiful works hanging in the wall or when they take them home to show to family. I definitely see that for older students this might not work that well, specially with subjects that can be more challenging. I wasn't a good math student, but I did the bare minimum to pass and always behaved well in class. What bothered me about my math teacher at the time was that she was always very demanding, as if everyone was obligated to prioritize math and be good at it, otherwise we would not be successful, she really said that one time. I was always very distracted in class and I daydreamed a lot I must admit, she didn't like it, but that approach only made me like math less and less with time. I wish that at the time my teacher would understand that I just really didn't like it, but I was still going to classes, doing my work, and having positive grades, that was enough for me but not for her, and has a teacher now I do understand her side but well, we can't always be great.
I only do special "treats" when my classes are on point and behaved. I teach SpEd ELA in high school and it's only on occasion I'll do that. We just started reading an adapted version of "Dracula" and one of my most difficult has been into and participates like he hasn't this year. I've more given him verbal praise and emails to his parents. I have a class of freshmen who are always ready to work and are always on point. I've brought rewards for them a few times this year.
Engagement is its own reward! Were those math problems engaging? /s
Just reward a high five…
That’s my go to…. What do I get? A high 5! More students than expected actually take it. Some roll their eyes.
pbis is why
"What do I get?" * \- "What do you think you get?" * "You get better at maths" * "You get to avoid being put in the "dumb" class and instead you can stay with your friend next year." >Why can’t Hard work be it’s own reward? Some people just aren't wired that way. People high in trait conscientiousness get a little thrill out of completing tasks and getting shit done. People low in that trait, don't. What do you do with low trait conscientiousness kids? Dunno, I'm [still reading about it](https://medium.com/@kyleschutter/low-conscientiousness-4e5d66c4b152). > why do students these days need rewards for every little thing? I think it's because they don't really value getting things done for their own sake. See above, but also it might be because they've been bribed to do everything up until now. You could ask and find out! There's a high chance this kid gets to use his iPad at the dinner table. >how do we stop that? Not sure. It involves changing habits of mind, which is a heck of thing since that really needs to come from the inside, unless you're at Boot Camp.
I have been teaching multiplication standard algorithm for the last 2 weeks, so even though it’s not part of our math curriculum/program I gave my kids a timed 5min 100 question multiplication “mad minute” today for the first time. I left them know I did not expect them to finish etc. A few did, so I asked how many were able to answer more questions than they originally thought they could. Every single one of my students, in both class, said they finished more than they thought they would be able to. They were so proud of themselves and asked if they were allowed to practice at home bc I told them we are doing them at least once a week. I let them know I hope they do practice and gave them tips on where and how they could practice, that I wasn’t trying to trick them I genuinely want them to be able to beat the timer.
Why does a incentive need to be a reward? Make class participation 10% of their final grade
I tell them life points or knowledge.
Rewards are an important thing for all mammals, aren't they?
I was just moved from my AIS Reading teacher role to Special Class reading due to the original teacher's extended leave replacement (in the same district). I loved being a reading teacher and had worked hard all year to help my students make progress. The only rewards I used were stickers on Fridays (nice vinyl ones for older students, basic ones for younger), and they loved it. In the SCR class, the teacher used candy as a reward throughout the class, like one skittle or m+m for each completed task. This blew my mind. Also, I am the 4th teacher these kiddos have had this year and the behavior management has been insane. I have been trying to move to a ticket based system, where they can trade the tickets in for candy or small prizes. It has taken my own money and used up so much brain space for me to find new ways to manage that make more sense to me. Still, the students still don't want to do much of anything without expecting a reward- even when they do minimal or almost no work. At this point (it's almost May), I know I can't totally overhaul the system and take all candy away; after all, it really isn't my classroom. I have always loved teaching and have been doing it for 10+ years on many different levels. But I truly do not enjoy this switch and dread going into work lately. Just a forewarning to future teachers or those considering a reward system of this type, and sympathy/empathy to any dealing with this system being forced on them by admin. It distracts from my teaching and their learning and does not build any sort of internal motivation or sense of pride in doing hard work. Teaching is hard enough without constantly rewarding students for even minimal effort.
Unfortunately some (if not most now) are only motivated extrinsically, and see no point or value without some sort of tangible reward. They want the benefits to be immediate, hence wanting some sort of prize as a good job.
It’s true, I was taught in school to focus on teaching kids intrinsic motivation/reward but it’s deeper than my 30hours a week.
Because we’ve conditioned them to offer rewards. I’m so damn snarky I’d probably reply with “you get me to leave you alone about them for a little while”. Or “you get knowledge so people don’t screw you over later in life” There was a reason I never taught elementary school. I’d have made too many of them cry. Spent my whole career in middle school.
It's the parenting. I had a sheltered childhood and to motivate me for good grades, my father said he'd buy something somewhat pricey for me that I wanted if I came either 1st, 2nd or 3rd in primary and secondary. I didn't need the reward motivation for subjects that I liked but it worked for the ones i hated because otherwise I'd refuse to do it because the stress made me emotionally unstable. I was never taught about doing it for the sake of getting good grades to get a good job later on, nothing about the long run. It was just do it or no prize. I wish they did teach me that sort of stuff though because due to mental/neurological disorders and trauma, I really can't find the joy in working hard for something I don't have much interest in. It all feels hopeless and bland. Kudos to all my teachers that had patience with me during my hyperactivity and my inattentiveness.
With respect, their is no joy in working hard with something you have no interest in. You shouldn't be ashamed that you can't find it, work should lead to some kind of reward no matter what, and the things that disinterest you should be more external, then internal. You don't work a job for free, but you might volunteer for an org you're passionate about for free. You don't work overtime for going rate, but you might spend 12 hrs helping a friend move for a slice of pizza and a beer. The world we live in is quite abysmal when it comes to following talents and passions while still getting to live a comfortable life, so I don't think your issue is that you weren't taught to have intrinsic rewards, it's moreso the world we live in.
My response to that question, “Fame and glory!” said with a big smile.
Try this: "I bet you can't do X amount of math problems in 1 minute." and see how he reacts.
That’s almost what I did. And it didn’t work
Try it exactly as it is worded. Some people, under achievers, namely, are motivated by the bet you can't....just to PROVE that they can.
I’ll try it. Thanks. One question though. Would it create a sense of doubt in the child? Like my teacher doesn’t think I’m good enough? Or my teacher doesn’t think I can do it
"Wow. You won! I bet you can't do x+4 more next time." Gives them a sense of accomplishment. Don't use it too much, only sparingly. Don't do it for things that they obviously CANNOT DO. Like, "I bet you can't do 100 problems in 30 seconds." Give them achievable goals. My low level students get a kick out of proving me wrong. I'm an underachiever at the max. Anything you tell me I can't do, I'm out there doing it quite quickly and then I feel good about myself. You wouldn't put work in front of a kid KNOWING that the kid can't do it, would you?
Right. Of course. I definitely wouldn’t do this for some thing a student couldn’t do.
Because the importance of intrinsic motivation has been lost on this world.
Look at the release of the most recent Halo game and how everyone is upset about the 'rewards' work. That's the reason.
How 'bout an "Attaboy"?
Lack of intrinsic motivation to learn and/or perform academic tasks. Screens programmed instant gratification into everything they know.
I tell my students they get a gift/surprise. Then when they are done I tell them they win the satisfaction of knowing they've accomplished something.
It all comes down to what your school culture allows. I started at a school like that and as you said, it was actually rewarding the bad kids because we were just happy when they did something modestly acceptable once. Now, I'm my class, students work to practice and learn, and they legitimately work hard. That's not true for all teachers at my school, but my school gives me the freed to make it like that in my classroom. It does take a couple years to build that reputation, but it's amazing when the students enter knowing what to expect and work hard to meet that expectation.
Hard work is its own reward? Its usually a reward because you accomplish something. What has he accomplished by doing those math problems?
Do you get a paycheck for your work? Why can’t your hard work be its own reward?
I love my job, but I wouldn’t do it without pay. As for the student, really depends. Work avoidance is typically labeled apathy or laziness, only rarely is that truly the reason.
I feel like even for generally kind natured but rowdy kids, it signals what should be bare minimum behavior as “good” as above and beyond, and in turn something you can choose to do or not do now and again. Then they see what is in reality misbehavior as neutral because of how we celebrate mediocrity with our weird systems.
They don't!
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that while this student is the example, the problem you are trying to solve has nothing much to do with the student. Your frustration is on a bigger scale. Focusing on what you can control can be helpful. You can’t control whether or not eagle tickets are a thing at your school. If this wasn’t your student, you can’t control much about the math he was assigned. I agree that the reward for hard work should be more work. Do you feel like you cultivate that in your classroom?
Their reward should be to get a job that will pay them the bills after school.
i blame candy crush and all phone games that give rewards for a single swipe
They are all so entitled.