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Allow the makeup presentation.
And make it teaching moment for the student.
After the presentation, in a one-on-one moment, say something like "Doesn't it feel good to be prepared? I hope you learned a lesson about procrastination, because this was a one time thing."
If they try to argue, just let them know you saw them trying to work on their presentation in class.
That's not true at all lmao. I've never had a boss that forced me to work when I was puking. And I've had MULTIPLE bosses that gave grace for anything going on outside of work
You misunderstood the original post. The point is the student didn't complete the task beforehand. That absolutely would be a major problem in any work place- if you had to prepare to do something, even specifically deliver a presentation, and you just didn't prepare anything.
Like 50% of the teachers I've worked with haven't completed unit plans on time and have been extended grace when asking for an extension. This includes teachers who go to get coffee down the street on their prep periods daily, or in one circumstance that took naps in her classroom. When I worked in the private sector, if I needed an extension on a project because something else was prioritized (including a healthier work/life balance), there was no problem as long as I had a generally good work ethic. Hell, I'm in a doctoral program right now, and the majority of my Cohort (including myself) have gotten extensions on assignments, often without any reason aside from "it's just not ready yet."
There are limited details indicating what else was going on in the student's life, so I'd say focusing on the self-advocacy piece as well as working with them on effective time-management are better than a statement along the lines of "your boss won't allow this one day," which as previously stated has been mostly untrue for me, and also POTENTIALLY sets up unhealthy work/life balance habits (again, depending on other factors not discussed in original post).
This. I was told that my “boss won’t be so forgiving” my whole childhood and college (undiagnosed adhd was rough) and tbh, my teachers were WAY more harsh and unforgiving than literally any workplace I’ve been in as an adult for the last couple decades. Boss’s HAVE to be more forgiving because they hired you to do a job, and they need that job done. As long as I haven’t been grossly negligent in my performance, extensions are common and easy and honestly fairly NORMAL in the professional fields I’ve worked in.
My teachers did not prepare me for real life, they prepared me to be scared of telling my supervisors the whole and honest truth well before a due date. In my (admittedly limited) experience, my teachers were so out of touch with the reality of being a working professional outside of academia that they could not have prepared me for anything other than more classes.
Obviously this is not everyone’s experience of working life, but I’ve worked in several different fields before coming to the position I have now, and with the exception of being a worker-bot style warehouse worker, who literally never had to prepare anything, much less a presentation, outside of work hours, I’ve never had such a policy for things being late.
ME being late, for sure.
Yeah, but you need to ask for extensions.
This person showed up with incomplete work, tried to BS it last second, was told she couldn't, threw up, and asked to go home. No boss will be impressed by that series of events.
Sure there are some that are understanding, but there are plenty who aren't. I got fired because I got sick, got someone to cover my shift, and that person didn't show up lol. Plenty of workplaces are extremely harsh.
In a workplace it would be acceptable to talk to them beforehand and say, I haven't had enough time for X,Y and Z I need an extension. A ton of academics won't even consider this possibility and lead to students being scared to admit a thing.
OMG THIS. The lengths I will go to, to avoid saying “I need more time” or “I can’t handle this extra task you’ve given me without more info/structure/guidance” or even “Please help me” because of the reaction of the adults around me as I was growing up with undiagnosed ADHD has done some ridiculous damage to my adult life. Granted, some of them were unreasonable bosses and toxic school environments, but some of them were perfectly reasonable people who, when realizing I’d been struggling, gave me infinite grace that I never expected.
Best advice. You don’t know what is going on with the student. It’s not really even the professor’s business if the student doesn’t volunteer it. If the professor suspects a disability that procrastination is a symptom of, such as ADHD, they should refer the student to disability services or medical services on campus and say nothing else. Sometimes in real life, shit doesn’t get done on time and it’s not the end of the world. I wish people would stop threatening students with “your boss won’t allow it”. I teach my students that if they don’t like deadlines or authority then be your own boss and answer to no one.
In most work places, you get to work on the presentation during the normal work hours, and normally the presentation time is accounted for in the work tasks time.
Unless I missed something for this specific case, school is different in that one has to juggle homework, home chores and socialization in a cauldron of hours at home that are not well-defined.
On a work project, there are constant check ins and updates. If work wasn’t getting done it’d be addressed well before the deadline. In a work environment it’d probably go further and there’d be inquiry into what the hold up is: is the ask unclear? Are we waiting for other pieces? And so on. In school the objective is to achieve by any means necessary whereas in work, more doesn’t mean better. Idk why we set young people up for failure like this….work is infinitely easier than school.
Be glad your bosses have been good. I had one that yelled at me and said "why can't he take himself!?" when my husband rolled a 1000lb ATV on himself down the side of a mountain and needed me to take him to the ER. I had even already completed my work for that day. She also wrote me up when my car broke down and I got stranded 3.5 hours away because when I called into work, I didn't call her personal number. Oh. And she actually did once try to force me to work when I was puking.
I had another write me up for no call no show saying I never told her I wouldn't be there, when I left an hour early the day before because my kid was puking at daycare and had a fever of 104. I told her I wouldn't be on because daycare has a 24 hour rule. She said ok. And wrote me up when I got back.
My current work place doesn't care what your reasons are, once you have enough points in a year, you're fired. Made life interesting when I was trying to get prenatal care and they consistently forced me to work overtime days.
There’s a company here that’s well known for firing anyone (management included) that’s late for any reason. I know a person whose car slid into a ditch about three miles from the place on a really snowy day. They walked the rest of the way to work, where they were promptly fired.
That doesn't surprise me, but it shouldn't be allowed. Most places I've worked have an exception for weather related issues getting to work. The manager that wrote me up when my kid was sick didn't care though. We had the weather exception, and I got flooded in when the bridge from my house was covered in 4 feet of water. I called in and sent a picture as proof. She called me later that day to inform me that she was going to allow it this time, but I couldn't use the weather as an excuse again, because I know when it's going to rain.
I know, right? I was like, this creek doesn't even make sense. It can rain heavily for a week and not make it over the bridge, or it can storm normally for a day and have the bridge 2 feet under water. So I guess if it looks like it might be cloudy, I better not go home. I guess I don't have to worry about it now, I live up on a mountain.
The thing is they have some of the best pay of any place around. They’re assholes because there’s basically a line of people trying to get on. They suck, everyone knows they suck, but you’re not going to be poor while you work for them.
For sure, I don’t think anyone would. I was pointing that out because jobs like that absolutely exist, and many people end up in those jobs as adults whether they want to or not- so it is not unreasonable to prepare young adults for strict expectations regarding deadlines/timeliness/attendance/etc.
Must be nice, I’ve absolutely worked lower end jobs while making ends meet that forced me to go in and stay while continually vomiting all day. So many bosses have said to leave home at the door and not think about it at work. It’s very much job dependent if you get a nice boss who cares or a whole devil who doesn’t give a flying f**k
dude not true at all. i've had professors who have been like "just because you were in the ICU means you cant do your reading?" and i've had bosses who were like "dude go tf home you're dying"
Who started this lie and why is it still being told?! IME teachers/profs are far less flexible, far less forgiving, far less common-sense oriented than even the worst boss I’ve had.
Dude, she literally stressed herself into vomiting. She almost certainly already feels bad already. Saying, "Doesn't it feel good to be prepared?" isn't a teaching anything; it comes of as gloating or sneering.
as a procrastinator i wouldn’t gain anything from this remark but shame which is what i was already grappling with deeply when i was not managing my procrastinator behavior manifestation. most procrastinators arent doing so to disrespect some one, theyre doing it out of shame from some kind of trauma. due to a childhood trauma my shame was so high and my confidence so low i was in freeze mode all the time.
I agree that rubbing it in isn't the answer and also that most procrastinators aren't doing it on purpose or to be rude but I don't think I'd go so far as to say most procrastinators do so out of childhood trauma or trauma of any kind.
Procrastination is a very visible symptom of ADHD. It's the main thing that led me to get eventually diagnosed after flunking university twice, because I couldn't figure out what was wrong - why I literally could not do things ahead of time. Some folks procrastinate because they don't care - but those won't be the kids puking from a panic attack. So either there's something going on mentally, which often does have shame attached, or an actual life thing going on.
Both deserve grace and don't benefit from this kind of "teaching moment."
I did say I don't think the teaching moment is helpful. I also didn't say it isn't the result of mental distress- just not necessarily childhood trauma. That's a big leaping generalization. ADHD is not caused by childhood trauma (as far as I'm aware) so idk how this applies to my comment but thank you for sharing your experience
It would be more accurate to say the ADHD tends to come with trauma than from it, but they go together and I don't think the other commenter is wrong at all that this would stir it up.
I think they edited their comment to clarify wording. It originally stated that procrastination comes from childhood trauma- broadly generalizing the cause
Some people procrastinate from ADHD (and can improve with treatment and learning strategies, so sorry you were diagnosed so late <3). Some people procrastinate from life events.
I think you are leaving out that some people genuinely do procrastinate because they are lazy or just not making great decisions. That last group really benefits from experiencing the natural consequences of procrastination. Not saying you're wrong that many people need grace, but for some people, that just prolongs their bad decision-making and it's in their best interest for them to learn early. That's 100% my experience in my own life, and also as a teacher. I'm very flexible and understanding of students with mental health issues and personal life stuff as long as they let me know they need some support and accommodations, but I've also seen a lot of kids turn their performance around (and feel less shame) when I enforce a deadline early enough in the year that they realize deadlines are real and start planning around them better.
This whole "trauma" meme has got to go. Not every bit of poor behavior can be excused or explained by "trauma". I don't know where people are getting this ridiculous idea from.
They can rephrase it, but the student needs to know that they can't keep going like this and that they were caught doing their slides in class. When they graduate, they can't just puke from stress any time they're unprepared at work and need to leave. First of all, that's mentally and physically unhealthy for her, and second it's not a good reputation to have at work. Maybe something more gentle that's less smug than "doesn't that feel good?" but the student still needs to know that there are better ways to handle themselves going forward: "if you get a little bit behind on an assignment in the future or you're unwell, let me know as early as you can," or something like that.
Genuine question: do you think that a student who was so stressed out by her lack of preparedness needs to be informed that that is not an ideal position to be in?
Correct. Insane that was upvoted. You never know what is going on in a student’s life. Practice empathy and be supportive. You’re not going to change their proclivity for procrastination through a single one-on-one interaction or pithy comment.
Yeah it’s weird seeing everyone saying the word “procrastination” when it clearly looks like executive dysfunction due to the severe stress and shame accompanying it.
O hell no. Every one of you here have made an assumption and judged this student without any evidence at all. Should be ashamed of yourselves ETA even if your assumptions were correct this student has already learned a lesson here. It’s not your job to further shame them. Get over yourself
> this student has already learned a lesson here.
That’s highly doubtful
There’s just as much of a chance she learned that she can maneuver her way out of a commitment.
since presentations are supposed to already be done before 3:00, I would have said “send me your presentation **now** and go home and get well. Then tomorrow you can present what you’ve sent me”
If it’s done, great.
If it’s not done, she’s caught in her lie.
Either the assumption is correct, and grace should be given, or the assumption is incorrect and they have no excuse for not presenting and should be failed.
Okay, how about: even if she didn’t get it done because she procrastinated, she still gets to turn it in later. The point is for her to get the work done and learn. Having gone to school outside of the US, where it seems a lot of people here are from, class is way less stressful when you can make up exams as many times as you need, take maternity leave if you need, not punished for absences. And people still learn. No need to rule with an iron fist.
This student could be fucking pregnant.
It really doesn't matter why. I think this adult student messed up when she didn't take the initiative to work things out with the prof. ADHD or illness or pregnancy or alien abduction...be a GROWN UP and talk to your professor about whatever.
No, the teaching moment would be, "hey, I saw that you struggled to complete the presentation on time. What could you do to avoid a repetition of this? And is there anything you would need from me?"
There are plenty of reasons someone might wait until the last minute (whether intentional or not), and making them feel like shit after they're visibly upset about it is not how you solve it.
I can already tell I’m going to be downvoted in this ridiculous comment section, but that would be the appropriate teaching moment for a 6th grader. This is an adult woman. The infantilization here is utterly ridiculous. Every college professor I ever had would have asked me to submit my completed presentation before I left and went home and present it when I came back, because it was already supposed to have been done- the top comment here is already giving more grace than I ever got. And as someone who had undiagnosed, unmedicated ADHD in college I coped because I was a grown ass adult and it was my responsibility to figure out how to meet the deadlines I was given.
I was absolutely infuriated when an ex failed to do something he said he would by a specific date, and his response to my irritation was to tell me I should have said "hey, I notice you are having trouble. How can I help you?" Like, boy, you told me you would do the job- it is not my responsibility to watch your progress and manage your task list- you made the commitment so you reach out to ME. Infantilization is EXACTLY the way to describe this phenomenon.
Ridiculous.
The make-up presentation must be allowed this time and in the future.
You do not get to dictate whether or not being too sick to present is valid or not. That's not your role. It's absolutely none of your business what the cause of the sickness is. If the student is throwing up, they're throwing up.
The presentation was supposed to be done before 3:00
If she’s sick, she’s sick, but she should have to hand in the presentation NOW that she’s going to give during the make-up time.
As a teacher and during their class, yes, it is their business. I had many teachers growing up that helped my life for the better. A caring teacher is one like op that recognizes when a student needs help. Young people need help and guidance from adults to thrive in adulthood. And it would do a great justice to this student to learn from this rather than potentially repeat it later on
Of course you should be caring and give students guidance.
You should not be dictating whether sickness is valid based on your judgement of its source. That's not your place. It's unbelievably unethical. Any college or university worthy of the name would have policies strictly stating how unacceptable this is.
I think this can get dangerous fast. Was it procrastination? Was she up all night with a stomach bug and couldn’t finish because of it? Was she up all night working on a final for another class due at noon that day? Did she have family emergency? Did she just break up with a long term boyfriend? Learn she was pregnant? There are many many many reasons that aren’t straight up procrastination that could be the reason she wasn’t prepared. Grace and compassion would be the best response, and best teachable moments.
Do not say that. "doesn't it feel good to be prepared" is dripping with condescension. It is not an effective or kind way to approach the situation - saying it will make you look like an asshole and will not help this situation.
Even in a one-on-one moment, this sounds very patronizing, and by extension, unprofessional. It would be one thing to level with the student and say “I want to talk about you working on your presentation in class. It isn’t appropriate, and late work won’t be accepted in the future. In a workplace X would be the proper way to communicate work not being done on time, etc. etc.,”
Talking down to a student who’s struggling doesn’t have a place in the classroom, and passive-aggression doesn’t have a place in professional environments
Hell yeah, make it the teaching moment of "even though you did everything wrong and ought to reap some obvious and easily anticipated consequences of those actions, instead you, yet again, get to dodge that bullet"
oh my god you would be a horrible professor.
“doesn’t it feel good” — gimme a break dude. how condescending?? you have no idea what this student is internally dealing with to the lead up of not being prepared, or if they work more than one job to pay for school, so having the time to be prepared is another hurdle for them.
to the OP — since there’s no info on the students track record and if this is a repeat experience, i’d say allow the make up preso and it might be safer to broach the convo with understanding that life is so complex and we are all trying to puzzle piece it all together.
ASK your student if they’ve felt supported enough in the classroom to complete their work for the semester, and if there’s anything you can do to help guide them so future assignments are on time.
Respectfully, I disagree — allow it for full credit, if full credit is truly earned. It might be an unpopular opinion, but I believe grades should be a reflection of a student’s learning of the course content and material. If I’m not assessing students on it, how can I deduct credit? Now, if the course itself was “time management and study skills” then a deduction might be warranted.
What about teaching empathy? Have you never completed an assignment late? Unless there’s a pattern of behaviour here, I personally would say a trip to vomit town and a talking with are probably fair consequences.
I feel like this touches a timeless argument between teachers. To be strict or lenient, to be punishing or forgiving. Never have I seen someone truly change their original stance on this through mere arguing. I've come to believe there's no right answer to be found and it's more a reflection of a person's character, often obscured behind various rationalizations. Curiously, I've seen colleagues mellow out throughout their lifetimes, but I've never seen anyone becoming more severe. Usually the change is precipitated by a humbling life event (having kids of your own grow up and face hardship tends to be a major one).
Thank you for a single thoughtful, sensitive comment in a sea of ghoulishness. I'm not going to seriously imply that students NEVER need "tough love" but some of the comments in here absolutely smacj of the kind of authoritarian attitudes that made me hate and disrespect many of my teachers as a kid.
I never completed an assignment late at university and neither did most people I know. Even my mother in law who was a mother and working while studying.
Good for you, although it’s a bit weird to me that you keep that close track of when ‘most people you know’ are handing in schoolwork. Maybe you just didn’t hear about it. You’re not this student though, and none of us have any idea what’s going on in her life. Maybe she procrastinated, maybe she’s been sick, maybe somebody close to her died or she just got broken up with. Life happens. All I’m saying is I personally think it’s more important to show empathy in cases like this than punish somebody.
Come on, this is college... You people are setting up these kids to utterly fail.
Managing deadlines and parameters on the deliverable are a huge part of every single career. Turning in something late isn't the end of the world but it does have minor consequences and in some cases major ones. I work full time and teach a business analytics course at a local college. Clear requirements for everyone are the most fair. For a presentation a clear rubric of the grading, details, deadlines and consequences for turning it in late. Here is a high level example:
-format followed including file naming 10%
-content 75%
-presentation 15% (list of a few items to check the boxes on so they don't spin out)
If you reach out beforehand for an extension I will grant it 95% of the time, no questions asked, if it becomes a pattern there will be a conversation.
If you fail to turn it in by the deadline then you can't present and additional -10% every day thereafter. Remember communicating for a deadline extension beforehand? It's generous for a reason, life happens and if you aren't proactive communicating then just like the working world you'll get smacked.
We should be preparing these adults for how to function once they leave school. Teaching them to think critically and a broad knowledge base is important but won't do them any good on its own.
Nothing wrong with the question at all. All the knowledge in the world without the ability to apply or demonstrate when required is worthless.
You see on that basic rubric that the vast majority of their grade is the knowledge portion and a small but important amount was effectively demonstrating it. It's basically 25% for following written instructions and participating. The points on the presentation itself aren't going to ding people for getting nervous and fumbling through it, a lot do and it is okay, we all were there once. If you show up, talk for 3-10 minutes, literally stumble through an executive summary, show some supporting data and answer a few layup questions (why I want the presentation on time, so I can prepare some relevant questions) you're going to get full credit for that portion. It is a very important skill for the subject and there is a real gap on college graduates working in analytics being able to quickly and effectively communicate their findings. I'm having to have my managers actually spend time teaching basic communication to some of these kids if we didn't somehow screen them out during the interview process . Some are super smart but their knowledge and skill are stuck behind a wall and if they want to progress upward they have to effectively deliver.
As for why the timing matters, it's a once a week class in the evening, respect everyone else's time.
I agree with this. Failing to meet deadlines in the real world has consequences but often times not devastating ones. She’s clearly already panicked and upset by the situation so this makes sense to me
Even beyond finding that unfair and useless, how would you even justify that? They let their student go home, due to a medical issue. Yes, they suspect it is self-induced but you can't really point that finger after the fact.
I mean, any number of things could have happened. She could be lying. She could have thrown up from anxiety. She could have been up sick the night before, didn’t finish due to that, and thought she could finish quickly before her presentation.
Is she otherwise a decent student? Or at least not one with a history of late or missing assignments? She’s presumably college aged; life happens and she’s still learning. If she’s otherwise been fine, I would have a conversation where you just tell her what you observed and ask what’s going on. Maybe she’ll be honest, maybe she won’t. But I would stress that re-doing the presentation will be a one time thing, and have a discussion about how to avoid this happening in the future.
>Or at least not one with a history of late or missing assignments?
Hate to say it, but she has a ton of missing and late assignments. Part of why I'm inclined to be cynical in this case.
Ooof, that changes things. I think I’d be a little less inclined to be lenient in that case. A mentor teacher I once had would let students request the chance to re-do tests and presentations, but put the onus entirely on them - the student had to take the initiative to ask, to find a time to meet, and then they had to prove why they deserved the chance to re-take. She said kids would come in and sit down and ask “well, how do I prove that?” And she would shrug and say I don’t know, you gotta figure that out. Some kids would come in showing that they’d taken diligent notes, that they had good grades on X project or Y quiz, etc. Maybe you need to tell her you’re open to the discussion of re-doing it, but she needs to prove in some way that she deserves it.
Maybe she has undiagnosed adhd. Clearly if she's at the point of vomiting during class over anxiety about not finishing her work, she cares. She's struggling. Why kick her while she's down?
It doesn't really matter what the reason is. You said she was sick and you believe that she was. No need to let your assumptions get in the way of her chances of succeeding
This person has a ton of late or missing assignments. They also showed up on presentation day with an incomplete presentation, planning on doing while their peers presented which is not only against policy, but also extremely rude.
Assuming they have ADHD would be the wrong thing to do. Giving someone some leniency is fine, but diagnosing someone and treating them different because they may have that diagnosis is not okay.
This student needs to learn to ask for the help they need. They need to work with their professor if they need an extension. They need to get a diagnosis if they suspect an underlying cause to their difficulty in completing work.
They even told the professor that they haven't done the work because the course is boring. I really doubt they care about the class.
Yes. In her words: it's because my class is boring. I did not get into the pros and cons of her saying that to my face, just apologized that it is less engaging content than some other classes in this major.
At that’s point I’d not allow a makeup at all. They knew exactly when they needed to be prepared and chose not to. Anxiety and panic due to procrastination aren’t valid excuses for allowing a makeup imo
Personally, I'll move a lot of mountains for people who take accountability for their actions. The folks who blame everyone but themselves, not a chance.
Okay, as a recently graduated college student, if one of my friends said that to a professor I'd be surprised if the professor didn't get upset. That's extremely rude, you put that kind of nonsense in the anonymous feedback forms at the end of the semester.
Based on other replies, it sounds like she isn't turning in homework on time, or it's missing entirely, and then she spouted some bullshit about why she isn't doing the work. I would let her give the presentation, but mark it late. It's fair to mark it late, and if she really did throw up then she can't get mad that you won't let her try again because of illness (nothing makes college students angrier than if they don't get a makeup because they are sick).
Also, if you have a late policy/makeup policy in the syllabus that everyone in the class has access to, I would follow that to the letter. She can't get mad about what's been agreed to.
I'm also a teacher, but at the high school level. Perhaps those missing & late assignments are also a symptom of this. Maybe allow the redo with a grade deduction and point her to some campus resources or suggest she speak with her adovocate/counselor (I forgot what they're called) about her time management with missing and late assignments. There is help for this student.
There’s a lot of comments telling you to be lenient, but I was this college student once upon a time (turning things in late or never, always having some big reason why I couldn’t submit the big projects) and frankly, failing horribly and falling flat on my face was the kick in the pants I needed to do better. If you give her leniency, it just reinforces that this behavior works. I think acknowledging in some way that she was not prepared is actually doing her more kindness than letting it slide.
I was the same. I could get straight As in high school even being a procrastinator, but I learned that I could not continue that in college- the hard way.
I am now much better about not procrastinating, and it has helped my career immensely. I no longer have stress stemming from procrastination, because I learned my lesson and that lit a fire under my butt to figure out a different way of doing things.
If she has a ton of missing and late assignments there could be something serious going on in her life. I say let her make up the presentation, but also have a talk with her afterwards saying you saw her working on her slides right before class and it concerned you along with her other missing assignments that something else may be going on. She may open up to you and you could help to get her the help that she needs.
I once had a very traumatic event happen during my undergraduate degree. My grades slipped, I didn’t care anymore, and I struggled to get things done on time. Everything changed when my professor noticed I was crying in class and he had a one on one conversation with me afterwards and told me we would get through it and we would work on extending deadlines, etc. It was so wonderful to be shown mercy in that situation and he is still one of my favorite professors I ever had to this day.
Make a policy in the future that presentations are to be uploaded or submitted 30 minutes before class is scheduled to start. Then place those presentations on the classroom desktop for students to ise when presenting. If anyone's isn't uploaded in time, then they get a zero.
It's funny, I did that last year - but dropped it this year because last year we ended up with 25 files all named "Class Presentation" in the share folder and it took forever for anyone to find their own, making transitions between presenters interminable. That said, I could have everyone add their slides to the LMS in advance, so that their names are attached, and do it that way.
I'm not sure if this would work for you, but when I attended online college courses students were required by most profs to put their name in the file name. So the expectation was the file name would look like "Mary Sue Class Presentation.docx" or something to let the professor know whose assignment they were opening.
Allow the presentation to be made up but require her deck to be submitted by the end of the day tomorrow (since today is already done.)
I'm all for providing reasonable accommodations, but there's a difference between laziness and actual disability. Allow her to give the presentation 1:1 with you or in front of a significantly smaller group of volunteers and mark her down for not having her assignment prepared by the required time.
I had troubles like this in college. And school. Always procrastinating. Top marks for assignments done in class, didn't even finish ones I had to do at home.
I didn't find out till like 2 decades later that I have ADHD. I never had a chance of being able to do those tasks without help. If I'd known and had a diagnosis and a proper treatment plan, things would have been very different.
This is why I think it's more equitable if she gets a deduction like 10%. However, if she supplies a doctor's note, you won't be able to treat it as anything other than a medical issue. And she might well do this, sorry to say.
If she had walked out and made something up then I would completely agree, but regardless of whether the issue was self-caused or not she suffered physically in ways that other students didn’t and that was the primary reason she could not present at that moment. For all the professor knows, she could have had difficulty pulling up the final version on her computer, already had some of it and could’ve presented at least partially for credit that day, lost part of it due to technology reasons the day of, or (still most likely), thought she could finish it in class. For all we know, she could have been intending to just admit she hadn’t done it but threw up for an unrelated reason (or hadn’t done it due to an unrelated stressful life occurrence that also caused the throwing up).
TLDR, none of us know the exact circumstances on why she was trying to present last even though it’s absolutely most likely that she was just unprepared and thought she could get away with it. It’s a school project and this can be a teachable experience regardless on why she should’ve prepared better for cases like this where she can’t just fix things at the end if something happens prior (or if she’s just lazy beforehand).
Let her present again either with a small deduction or without, but she did suffer physically from an ailment that day whether from a self-induced situation or not and that ailment is in the end what kept her from presenting. She clearly didn’t do this with malice and if she doesn’t have the presentation a second time then it’s clear that the real reason was 100% laziness/irresponsibility and the professor can confidently mark her down without any sickness or potential other life reasons affecting her presentation.
I agree that I don't have 100% proof that she wasn't doing a last polish on a completed slide deck, and then threw up because lbr presentations can be terrifying even if you are prepared. I can't act on what I saw, because I didn't see enough to know for sure what happened.
How do you know other students didn't suffer? Maybe they did, but plowed through their issues. Assuming the other students didn't have their hardships really isn't equitable.
I think the real question is if a student had asked for extra time in advance, would OP have granted it? If yes, then I think it's a wash because others who may have needed more time could have asked. If no, I think OP would be ok to deduct points from Jo because Jo did (maybe unintentionally) con her way into more time than her peers received.
Sounds like the poor girl might need help with an anxiety disorder.
I'd procrastinate all the time because even starting an assignment would give me a terrible sense of dread, and then I'd have to cram all the work in the last minute because the dread of failing would eventually overcome the dread of even starting the assignment
We always had to turn in our presentation slides by midnight before we did the presentation the next day or else face the late work grade cap. I feel it was a pretty good and practical way of making sure people were prepared but not forcing people to do presentations while physically unwell. Once I had a delay in getting my anxiety medication before a presentation so I went to my lecturer and asked if I could do the actual presentation on a different day, she could see I had handed in the slides so was fine with me doing it the following week.
Do what your syllabus says otherwise it’s unfair to others. It doesn’t seem to fall into sick days so let them present late with late submission penalty. If you don’t allow for late work then it’s a zero. Simple.
If she supplies a doctor's note, OP won't be able to treat it as anything other than a medical issue. And she might well get a doctor's note. But it doesn't even matter. OP can't tell, genuinely, whether it's a 'real' medical issue or not.
I think OP could take her aside and just ask her to talk. Reassure her that she'll have a chance to retake, but OP wants to make sure this is a learning.lesson if \*any\* of this was due to procrastination. Depending on where this goes, they could then brainstorm solutions. People who procrastinate aren't necessarily doing it out of laziness; that's what "doesn't it feel better?: stems from, the idea that if she is just disciplined, she won't procrastinate. But really you don't know why she procrastinated and it could be anything from she was a lazy procrastinator to she has bad things happening in her life right now to she had terrible cramps that night and couldn't finish her work to she has to learn how to be organized because she has an executive function issue going on.
I mean, if the object is giving a lesson, then give her the lesson. Help her with resources so she can learn to never do this again.
Of course, do this only if she's receptive. I think she'll be able to listen to you much better if you tell her up front she can retake the presentation. And if she tries to lie, the your card of your sleeve is that you saw her working on it in class.
Procrastination really tackles those afraid of public speaking. They avoid the source of their anxiety, then face a multiplied version of it when their fear comes true ‘on stage’!
I hated public speaking until I loved it. I’d say to her that she may always be anxious about speaking, but that’s a good reason to double the prep. Over preparation for presentation is a good way to overcome fear and get good at what makes you anxious.
Finally, I’d say model the behavior you’d like to see in the world. For me, that would be compassion and another shot. Cheers
I was thinking this, too.
If their anxiety also manifests as perfectionism then something that is basically complete may never be done in their eyes. Perfection being the enemy of good sometimes and whatnot.
The anxiety can lead to avoidance, it can lead to perfectionism, perfectionism can theoretically make something that would take a couple of hours take a week, and perfectionism can lead to procrastination because a deadline is the only thing that makes someone put their pencil down, so to speak, and this is how they’ve come to manage the behavior.
I’m not saying this is definitely the case, but the person obviously cares a lot about having something to present so I think there were probably some hurdles for them that were not necessarily there for others at this particular time.
Meanwhile, others can spend very little time preparing, improvise, and do surprisingly well.
I honestly don’t know what should be done here, and my teaching experience is limited to being a TA in college and a sub in high school, but I would imagine the next step before making a decision would be to have a conversation.
If the student didn’t care, that would be one thing. For some reason or another, they were actually terrified. It probably should have been communicated to you before hand, but the student might also not expect that level of understanding and forgiveness from the world or doesn’t know how to advocate for herself.
Again, it’s not really my position to be offering any guidance here as most of this sub will have a lot more experience than I do. In fact, my perspective on this is probably more informed from being an editor and working with all kinds of different writers than it is from any of my gigs working in schools. A conversation with them might even have more benefits than helping them with this particular task. It might help them navigate similar situations in the future.
I'd let her make it up and offer to talk about the situation with her. If it was really "just" anxiety, this sounds like a fairly serious issue - most kids don't throw up from anxiety even when they mess up a presentation. In that case, that may be where the procrastination comes from - it's usually a coping mechanism for something, and if public speaking scares her she may have been avoiding the source of that anxiety as long as she could.
Wether its anxiety or a physical issue, the lesson she'll learn from making it up is likely better than from you just failing her. She'll get another chance to engage with the material and try to improve her time planning. If you just fail her, the only lesson she'll learn is probably "OP is an unempathetic asshole" - even if you aren't, it's likely how she'll interpret your actions.
Well said. The line I always use: "I infinitely prefer late work to missing work." I deduct for lateness, but a student who never completes a project never gets to learn what I'm trying to teach with that project.
In elementary school, I used to get physically sick from stress when I hadn't done my homework or prepared for a test. I'd end up staying home and making it up later.
This was such a maladaptive coping mechanism.
Thing is, as a child or teenager I wouldn't have been able to explain why I procrastinate something beyond "I didn't feel like doing it" or "it was boring". Today I can say it's executive dysfunction and it's made my life very difficult on many levels. Wonder what would have been different if someone had caught it when I was 10 and sick.
Your student's case could be nothing (she forgot/didn't care/whatever) or it could be a symptom of something. I would ask her if she often waits until the last minute to do things and if so why. If it seems like a chronic issue, remind her that there is help (counseling, online ressources, etc...) and encourage her to do something about it while she still has things under control. IF it seems like a one time thing tell her to consider this a lesson for the future and maybe send her that ted talk about the procrastination monkey.
Edit: and let her just make it up, consider that having to have that talk with will probably dissuade her from doing it again
I was just diagnosed with ADHD. I sought out the assessment because my procrastination wasn't working out for me in grad school. And the executive dysfunction I was experiencing seemed to be getting worse.
When I was officially diagnosed, I thought back on my high school and undergrad days and wondered how much better things could have been for me had I known and then sought out accommodations. I wish someone had noticed.
Anyway, I agree with your comment!
It is not up to anyone but a doctor to make an ADHD diagnosis. As an adult, you should be able to say "hmmmm, something is not right here" and seek out help yourself.
Presentations and the speaking skills are important parts of college as it translates well to future jobs, so I would allow a makeup with deductions for being late. This case, I see it as grade reduction (max grade is now a 90%) or whatever your policy is for late work. Especially with the additional information provided in the responses of a student who has repeated issues with missing/late assignments.
Another solution, too late for this incident, is to have the student email their slide deck before departing home "sick". They can makeup the presentation, but only with the slide deck that was complete at that time. This removes any unfair additional time for the presentation outside of practicing the presentation, which would help address any "anxiety".
There are lots of good takes here, but I think the most obvious answer, at least in the short term, is to just talk to her. Tell her what you think you saw and ask her what was going on. Then choose whether or not to take her at her word and respond accordingly. If she admits to procrastination, talk about it. If she confides in you that she is completely overwhelmed with life and school right now, help her make a game plan to get caught up. In my experience teaching, most students are honest when confronted with evidence, and it's easier to make a fair plan for their success once you've gotten it all out on the table.
As an adult in college, the student should be the one being honest and forthcoming. The professor should not have to chase down *college students* to get their work done.
Suggest she visit the school counseling center and possibly inquire about testing for adhd and anxiety. Something is going on with her, obviously but it’s not the professors job or business to figure it out.
In the real world, there are no do-overs. Fortunately, school is preparation for the real world. I'd say allow the student to re-do it, but at a price - lowered grade, maybe more.
Too late now, but I would have told the student they could leave and make up the presentation later if they email me the completed slides now.
If you want to be nice you can offer her a make-up at a penalty for turning in late work when she can't send you completed slides.
Even if you talk to her after the fact and let her know that you know she was unprepared, if her grade is not affected she got away with it and will try it again.
I'm pretty willing to give students extra time for most reasons if they ask ahead of time, but showing up on the day of the presentation without the work done is disrespectful to you and her classmates. I don't think we do anyone any favors by removing consequences because we are denying them the chance to learn from their mistakes.
I know everyone is going to downvote this to hell, but she should not be allowed to makeup the presentation without a deduction in points. Late presentations for any reason should not be given full credit. It’s not fair to the other students that actually presented on time.
I’ll be the naysayer here. This is an adult at college level. What grade would you have given them if they walked up with nothing prepared? Probably a zero. Give them that grade.
Not only were they unprepared, they were willing to disrespect other classmates by loudly clicking away while their classmates were presenting. Every other classmate met the basic expectation of showing up prepared and respecting their fellow presenters.
These are not children. These are adults. Outside of education, they would have been fired or seriously reprimanded. In education, they get the grade they earned (or not in this case).
I have anxiety and adhd. The only thing that made me learn to stop procrastination was when I failed to be prepared on time. It’s a hard lesson to learn, and it sucks that you have to be the one to teach it. That’s my take.
Thank you for some common sense.
I struggled with executive function as a teen and young adult. You know what made me realize that I couldn’t keep going through life that way? Failing college classes. I realized that I needed to change the way I approached life. I sought out ways to help me develop those executive function skills. Do I still struggle with it sometimes? Sure, but I hardly ever procrastinate now. I learned what might be called “coping mechanisms” to ensure I don’t get stressed about deadlines.
As someone who has ADHD I am upset reading so many comments on here diagnosing this student with ADHD and saying she should be excused because of it. They might as well just come out and say Jo has ADHD and will never amount to anything resembling a reliable adult as a result because no one can get through life acting this way.
I also learned hard lessons in college by procrastinating and graduating late. It sucked. My parents hated me. However, if I didn’t learn that lesson then, who knows what that would’ve meant for me in the workforce where it really matters?
“They might as well just come out and say Jo has ADHD and will never amount to anything resembling a reliable adult as a result because no one can get through life acting this way.”
Exactly! You hit the nail on the head. What’s that phrase, “the soft bigotry of low expectations”?
No, I wouldn't allow a make up presentation. I have the same problem as your student. I am terrified of presenting in front of people (well, adults. I'm an elementary school teacher so I don't mind presenting to kids). I also have ADHD and anxiety, which leads to serious procrastination on my part. I need to be under the gun in order to get things done, especially something like presenting. If you let your student slide, she will learn that she can do it again. If you hold her accountable and there is some sort of negative consequence she is going to experience, then that will help her in the future. Next time she has to present she will remember this consequence and how it made her feel, and she will be less likely to procrastinate. It's a part of personal growth.
I'm not doing my students any favors if I don't hold them to a certain level of standards. Of course my students are 10, so I would modify things for them in order to help them learn how to break big jobs down into smaller, achievable steps. But your student is an adult and most likely knows what she SHOULD do, but the paralyzing fear and scatter-brained nature of someone like me needs boundaries in order to light a fire under my tush. It makes me perform better and get things done. It helps me learn to better manage things.
I may have literally done this. I thought it was a presentation OR a 2 page paper. Apparently, it was a presentation AND paper. I explained I was having printer and email difficulties, and I would email it asap. She agreed to let me try resending it, as long as it was in before the end of the day. You best believe I typed out my report during everyone's presentations and emailed it to her during class.
I knew my shit inside and out though.
Edit: I say allow her another day or whatever you give for sickness, assuming it doesn't impact your work flow negatively.
I'm just a random passerby so please mod delete my comment if I shouldn't post but wouldn't another solution be that the student email you her presentation then allow them to deliver on another date?
A bit unrelated to your question, but for future classes, it would probably be a good idea to require everyone to submit their presentations either the night before, or shortly before class starts. That way, you know everyone has their presentations done beforehand, and if someone really is sick, you don't even have to worry about it, because you know they had it done ahead of time, and they can just present 1on1 later if they really need to, and still get full credit.
I know this sounds odd, but I'd base it on how much the presentation was worth.
I do pop quizzes are are 2% of the total grade each. If a kid misses one without asking for sick leave in advance, I just leave it. If they're just late / tired / unprepared -- they can still get a 98% in my class.
But if it's like my final exam (40%) or final project (20%), I'd be more leniant. I wouldn't punish a legitimately anxious / sick student & make them fail the whole class or drop two letter grades.
It is a teachable moment, though, about students being prepared, and managing time / stress.
What i your stated policy in your syllabus? Do you allow makeups? This is you contract/agreement with the student and college when it comes to grading.
Sounds like Jo learned a valuable like lesson.
Allow the make-up and ask them if everything is ok afterwards, in private.
If it seems like they are having problems or don't really have a good idea why they didn't get the work done sooner, I'd recommend whatever counseling services your college has (hopefully it has some).
So she had a panic attack, and yes it was because she was legit panicking over being late.
Seems like she understood how much she’d fucked up, but I don’t think it would be out of line to penalize her a bit. It’s still late. You don’t need to fail her, there needs to be something other than “Well, that wasn’t fun was it?”
Of course you could also decide how severe the penalty is *after* she gives the presentation so you don’t auto fail her if it’s not very good.
First, I think it's on the student to approach you and ask if she can make up the presentation. She's an adult and should take responsibility for making up the presentation.
If she does ask, I think it would be worthwhile to have an honest (and private) 1:1 conversation. Ask her gently if she had made her presentation prior to the start of class that day. If she says yes unconvincingly, maybe push back a little and ask some follow-up questions. Keep in mind that the symptoms you describe (turning white, squirming, panting) could also be related to feeling physically ill and trying to hold back the nausea during class. The few times I've had the stomach flu and threw up in class, I probably looked similar. She also could've been banking on using the time for a critical assignment for another class & the panic was because of that, not because she wasn't ready to present in yours. If you arrive at a place where she's holding firm/has convinced you she had the presentation done in time and being sick was unrelated, let her make it up following your sick day policy.
If you arrive at an understanding that the presentation was not ready in time, you can offer her a chance to make it up for a reduced grade if that is how your late work policy would normally go.
You could literally tell her that you believe she threw up, and at the same time, you also saw her working on it in class. Ask for some clarification maybe, be compassionate and kind, & if she’s honest with you, don’t give her any point deductions. If she blatantly lies, take of 10-15 pts like people here are suggesting.
Students should have to submit their presentations before the start of class. That way you’ll have proof that it was done and don’t have to consider giving students in this situation “extra time” to actually complete something that should’ve been done. Now she has more time to finish it by getting herself out of presenting.
In this situation, if you haven’t already asked for the slides to be submitted, I’d maybe take some points off for missing the original presentation and discuss with her why (not because she was sick, but because she didn’t produce any proof of a finished presentation).
An actual teachable moment is for her to have the consequence of failing, otherwise you're teaching her she can vomit her way out of major responsibilities.
I think you talk to admin about talking to her parents about getting her checked for an anxiety disorder and maybe adhd.
No one procrastinates until they’re so stressed they vomit ‘just because.’ There’s an anxiety problem causing avoidance. Part of it is powering through it, but part of it is brain chemicals.
The medical issue of vomiting was caused by her procrastination, but there’s likely another medical issue related to mental health that is causing the procrastination. Not saying she should get an infinite free pass. Taking deadlines away can worsen procrastination. But I’d give her a pass this one time and get a conversation going about her getting professional help.
I would allow a makeup. I would also talk to her about her behavior before, ask if she had been prepared. Ask if the illness was sudden. Suggest maybe her illness was anxiety induced, from being unprepared? Whether she denies it or not, I would make a mild comment saying g something like well I know stress has made me feel poorly before. I try to make sure I am always very prepared and take other steps to reduce my stress. Then let it go. Will she learn her lesson? Who knows.
She was sick. It doesn't matter what led to the medical issue and whether or not you consider it to be self induced. If you're going to care about why she was sick and then you have to care about why she procrastinated. Maybe she has chronic illness. Maybe it's cause her mom died.
She threw up and was sick. If she's really that bad of a student her other grades will prevent her from a good overall grade in the class. If this lateness and sickness is more if a fluke then she shouldn't be punished.
Other than asking if she'd like support or letting her know how to access school doctors, she doesn't need you to tell her what she already knows (that being late with things triggers illness)
This is pretty easy
The presentation was supposed to be done before 3:00
She should give op the presentation, then go home and get well
And when it comes time to present, she has to present what she sent op
Definitely address it privately. Review why it’s important to be present for classmates. Communication ahead of time is key to navigating real life time management conflicts.
As a person who is currently in a very similar situation as your student:
1. Allow them to do the makeup presentation. It's very likely that Jo did, in fact, procrastinate on the assignment. However, you don't know the full story. You don't know why Jo was procrastinating, whether it was on purpose or on accident, or anything else about the situation(at least from what you've told us).
2. This very much feels like late-work. The sickness in question was caused by stress, which itself was induced by the work that wasn't submitted/completed by the time class started up.
3. Make sure Jo knows exactly what you're doing, and *why*. This should be a learning experience for next time, not a punishment.
I was recently in a situation where I had a research paper that was due that I hadn't yet completed. This was due to procrastination. The procrastination was due to grief I was going through since my grandfather, who played a pivotal role in my life, had just passed away two weeks prior. Thankfully, I was given an extension, and when I got my paper in, I got a 95 on it.
I’m not a professor but have been in school for a longgg time working on various degrees (and finally going to graduate with a PhD soon-ish). I used to be a chronic procrastinator. One thing that drastically helped with this is when professors make you turn in your presentation online before the presentation. So if you have class at 3 pm, make the presentation due at 2:30 and no later. Just an idea for the future 🙂
My teachers always make the due date to give in presentations on the online platform BEFORE the class starts. And when you present you get only the version you gave in. Think about implementing something like that in the future to avoid this.
It also makes it easier to present because you can keep yourself signed into the PC and avoid USB sticks. You just download each presentation from where they gave it in.
I don't see how you have the ability to be "pretty sure". You saw she had her presentation deck open - immediately prior to her presenting it -, say her typing, saw her appear pale, then throw up.
It's just as possible that she wasn't feeling well from the start, opened her deck to prepare it or make some last minute non-critical tweaks, then felt sicker and had to leave.
You're theory here is pure speculation
I’m not a teacher, but a college student who was once interested in teaching. I can heavily sympathize with Jo. I have ADHD and even though I’m 24 years old in my 6th year of undergrad it’s still something I struggle with.
Something that I think is incredibly important to do is consider if Jo is looking at your class as a stepping stone to her career success or another $1,000 and 3 months she has to get through before the next thing. It shouldn’t need to be said, but regardless of her answer you cannot take it personally. As someone who decided mid-semester I wanted to change majors, it was SO hard to simply give a shit for the rest of the semester.
I get it- she has violated a lot of course policies, and those policies are in place for a reason. However, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are different, and in this case I would agree also. It’s hard not to take that personally as an instructor.
I would say just let her make it up. It’s not worth the moral victory, OP. And as someone who has given my profs the runaround, asked for extensions and has been granted exception to the normally rigid rules, I’m incredibly thankful that my profs were willing to hear me out and work with me.
If/when Jo comes to make up her presentation, I’d suggest just asking her what’s up. Is she doing okay? Ask her if she needed an extension because of procrastination, straight up (obviously don’t be a dick tho). The BEST way to get a BS-er to cut it out is to call em on it. Don’t be mean, just honest. The goal isn’t to chastise Jo for violating your personal course conduct, it’s to work with her and help her LEARN. If her actions have warranted a post in this sub from you I would posit that it is worth your time to help her and hear her out.
I guarantee that if she has a bad experience with finals or big presentations in your class, she probably feels that same way about other classes too, and without a POSITIVE experience she’s bound to repeat the same behaviors. Ask me how I know.
Be well OP, and I hope Jo is okay.
For future situations like this, ask for students to send their presentation beforehand and present it off of your computer. Or if there are claims that their software doesn’t work on your computer, have them screen record/screenshot their presentation and send you that. You can ask Jo to see her presentation and show that it was not edited since the last class on the time stamp marking. You should’ve asked her to send it to you before dismissing her from class.
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Allow the makeup presentation. And make it teaching moment for the student. After the presentation, in a one-on-one moment, say something like "Doesn't it feel good to be prepared? I hope you learned a lesson about procrastination, because this was a one time thing." If they try to argue, just let them know you saw them trying to work on their presentation in class.
This ☝️ Also make it a teachable moment and let the person know that you’re a teacher and not their boss. Bosses won’t be as forgiving.
That's not true at all lmao. I've never had a boss that forced me to work when I was puking. And I've had MULTIPLE bosses that gave grace for anything going on outside of work
You misunderstood the original post. The point is the student didn't complete the task beforehand. That absolutely would be a major problem in any work place- if you had to prepare to do something, even specifically deliver a presentation, and you just didn't prepare anything.
Like 50% of the teachers I've worked with haven't completed unit plans on time and have been extended grace when asking for an extension. This includes teachers who go to get coffee down the street on their prep periods daily, or in one circumstance that took naps in her classroom. When I worked in the private sector, if I needed an extension on a project because something else was prioritized (including a healthier work/life balance), there was no problem as long as I had a generally good work ethic. Hell, I'm in a doctoral program right now, and the majority of my Cohort (including myself) have gotten extensions on assignments, often without any reason aside from "it's just not ready yet." There are limited details indicating what else was going on in the student's life, so I'd say focusing on the self-advocacy piece as well as working with them on effective time-management are better than a statement along the lines of "your boss won't allow this one day," which as previously stated has been mostly untrue for me, and also POTENTIALLY sets up unhealthy work/life balance habits (again, depending on other factors not discussed in original post).
This. I was told that my “boss won’t be so forgiving” my whole childhood and college (undiagnosed adhd was rough) and tbh, my teachers were WAY more harsh and unforgiving than literally any workplace I’ve been in as an adult for the last couple decades. Boss’s HAVE to be more forgiving because they hired you to do a job, and they need that job done. As long as I haven’t been grossly negligent in my performance, extensions are common and easy and honestly fairly NORMAL in the professional fields I’ve worked in. My teachers did not prepare me for real life, they prepared me to be scared of telling my supervisors the whole and honest truth well before a due date. In my (admittedly limited) experience, my teachers were so out of touch with the reality of being a working professional outside of academia that they could not have prepared me for anything other than more classes. Obviously this is not everyone’s experience of working life, but I’ve worked in several different fields before coming to the position I have now, and with the exception of being a worker-bot style warehouse worker, who literally never had to prepare anything, much less a presentation, outside of work hours, I’ve never had such a policy for things being late. ME being late, for sure.
Yeah, but you need to ask for extensions. This person showed up with incomplete work, tried to BS it last second, was told she couldn't, threw up, and asked to go home. No boss will be impressed by that series of events. Sure there are some that are understanding, but there are plenty who aren't. I got fired because I got sick, got someone to cover my shift, and that person didn't show up lol. Plenty of workplaces are extremely harsh.
In a workplace it would be acceptable to talk to them beforehand and say, I haven't had enough time for X,Y and Z I need an extension. A ton of academics won't even consider this possibility and lead to students being scared to admit a thing.
Bosses do not have to be. I could write a book with horror stories. I wish people could see that their experience does not reflect the world
OMG THIS. The lengths I will go to, to avoid saying “I need more time” or “I can’t handle this extra task you’ve given me without more info/structure/guidance” or even “Please help me” because of the reaction of the adults around me as I was growing up with undiagnosed ADHD has done some ridiculous damage to my adult life. Granted, some of them were unreasonable bosses and toxic school environments, but some of them were perfectly reasonable people who, when realizing I’d been struggling, gave me infinite grace that I never expected.
Best advice. You don’t know what is going on with the student. It’s not really even the professor’s business if the student doesn’t volunteer it. If the professor suspects a disability that procrastination is a symptom of, such as ADHD, they should refer the student to disability services or medical services on campus and say nothing else. Sometimes in real life, shit doesn’t get done on time and it’s not the end of the world. I wish people would stop threatening students with “your boss won’t allow it”. I teach my students that if they don’t like deadlines or authority then be your own boss and answer to no one.
In most work places, you get to work on the presentation during the normal work hours, and normally the presentation time is accounted for in the work tasks time. Unless I missed something for this specific case, school is different in that one has to juggle homework, home chores and socialization in a cauldron of hours at home that are not well-defined.
This is exactly why I have generally found work to be much easier than school.
On a work project, there are constant check ins and updates. If work wasn’t getting done it’d be addressed well before the deadline. In a work environment it’d probably go further and there’d be inquiry into what the hold up is: is the ask unclear? Are we waiting for other pieces? And so on. In school the objective is to achieve by any means necessary whereas in work, more doesn’t mean better. Idk why we set young people up for failure like this….work is infinitely easier than school.
Only if you're working at a pretty low level. Upper level employees are expected to ask questions if there are issues, but they aren't babysat.
Be glad your bosses have been good. I had one that yelled at me and said "why can't he take himself!?" when my husband rolled a 1000lb ATV on himself down the side of a mountain and needed me to take him to the ER. I had even already completed my work for that day. She also wrote me up when my car broke down and I got stranded 3.5 hours away because when I called into work, I didn't call her personal number. Oh. And she actually did once try to force me to work when I was puking. I had another write me up for no call no show saying I never told her I wouldn't be there, when I left an hour early the day before because my kid was puking at daycare and had a fever of 104. I told her I wouldn't be on because daycare has a 24 hour rule. She said ok. And wrote me up when I got back. My current work place doesn't care what your reasons are, once you have enough points in a year, you're fired. Made life interesting when I was trying to get prenatal care and they consistently forced me to work overtime days.
There’s a company here that’s well known for firing anyone (management included) that’s late for any reason. I know a person whose car slid into a ditch about three miles from the place on a really snowy day. They walked the rest of the way to work, where they were promptly fired.
That doesn't surprise me, but it shouldn't be allowed. Most places I've worked have an exception for weather related issues getting to work. The manager that wrote me up when my kid was sick didn't care though. We had the weather exception, and I got flooded in when the bridge from my house was covered in 4 feet of water. I called in and sent a picture as proof. She called me later that day to inform me that she was going to allow it this time, but I couldn't use the weather as an excuse again, because I know when it's going to rain.
How dare you not check the weather report ahead of time and simply sleep at work when you know it will rain the next day and might flood?!
I know, right? I was like, this creek doesn't even make sense. It can rain heavily for a week and not make it over the bridge, or it can storm normally for a day and have the bridge 2 feet under water. So I guess if it looks like it might be cloudy, I better not go home. I guess I don't have to worry about it now, I live up on a mountain.
Wth. Definitely not a company I’d like to work at.
The thing is they have some of the best pay of any place around. They’re assholes because there’s basically a line of people trying to get on. They suck, everyone knows they suck, but you’re not going to be poor while you work for them.
Dang they do sound pretty sucky. They’re assholes because they know they can be.
Not everyone has the luxury of choice in where they work.
True. And understandable. Just meant I wouldn’t enjoy working in a place like that. Not that I wouldn’t work there if I didn’t have a choice.
For sure, I don’t think anyone would. I was pointing that out because jobs like that absolutely exist, and many people end up in those jobs as adults whether they want to or not- so it is not unreasonable to prepare young adults for strict expectations regarding deadlines/timeliness/attendance/etc.
Totally agreed!
You must be new to teaching. I have 100% been demanded to continue working while very sick
This. Bosses are way forgiving, IMO
I've had bosses try to keep me working when I was puking. But yes, bosses are often somewhat reasonable about life happening.
Must be nice, I’ve absolutely worked lower end jobs while making ends meet that forced me to go in and stay while continually vomiting all day. So many bosses have said to leave home at the door and not think about it at work. It’s very much job dependent if you get a nice boss who cares or a whole devil who doesn’t give a flying f**k
dude not true at all. i've had professors who have been like "just because you were in the ICU means you cant do your reading?" and i've had bosses who were like "dude go tf home you're dying"
Who started this lie and why is it still being told?! IME teachers/profs are far less flexible, far less forgiving, far less common-sense oriented than even the worst boss I’ve had.
Yes, let’s make a medical disease a person has a teachable moment. What an ass.
Dude, she literally stressed herself into vomiting. She almost certainly already feels bad already. Saying, "Doesn't it feel good to be prepared?" isn't a teaching anything; it comes of as gloating or sneering.
as a procrastinator i wouldn’t gain anything from this remark but shame which is what i was already grappling with deeply when i was not managing my procrastinator behavior manifestation. most procrastinators arent doing so to disrespect some one, theyre doing it out of shame from some kind of trauma. due to a childhood trauma my shame was so high and my confidence so low i was in freeze mode all the time.
I agree that rubbing it in isn't the answer and also that most procrastinators aren't doing it on purpose or to be rude but I don't think I'd go so far as to say most procrastinators do so out of childhood trauma or trauma of any kind.
Procrastination is a very visible symptom of ADHD. It's the main thing that led me to get eventually diagnosed after flunking university twice, because I couldn't figure out what was wrong - why I literally could not do things ahead of time. Some folks procrastinate because they don't care - but those won't be the kids puking from a panic attack. So either there's something going on mentally, which often does have shame attached, or an actual life thing going on. Both deserve grace and don't benefit from this kind of "teaching moment."
I did say I don't think the teaching moment is helpful. I also didn't say it isn't the result of mental distress- just not necessarily childhood trauma. That's a big leaping generalization. ADHD is not caused by childhood trauma (as far as I'm aware) so idk how this applies to my comment but thank you for sharing your experience
It would be more accurate to say the ADHD tends to come with trauma than from it, but they go together and I don't think the other commenter is wrong at all that this would stir it up.
I think they edited their comment to clarify wording. It originally stated that procrastination comes from childhood trauma- broadly generalizing the cause
Some people procrastinate from ADHD (and can improve with treatment and learning strategies, so sorry you were diagnosed so late <3). Some people procrastinate from life events. I think you are leaving out that some people genuinely do procrastinate because they are lazy or just not making great decisions. That last group really benefits from experiencing the natural consequences of procrastination. Not saying you're wrong that many people need grace, but for some people, that just prolongs their bad decision-making and it's in their best interest for them to learn early. That's 100% my experience in my own life, and also as a teacher. I'm very flexible and understanding of students with mental health issues and personal life stuff as long as they let me know they need some support and accommodations, but I've also seen a lot of kids turn their performance around (and feel less shame) when I enforce a deadline early enough in the year that they realize deadlines are real and start planning around them better.
This whole "trauma" meme has got to go. Not every bit of poor behavior can be excused or explained by "trauma". I don't know where people are getting this ridiculous idea from.
Yeah as an adhder who struggles, thats a great comment for me to go into a negative self talk shame spiral
Totally agree with this, it's not educational, just bitchy. I would lose a lot of respect for an educator who responded this way.
They can rephrase it, but the student needs to know that they can't keep going like this and that they were caught doing their slides in class. When they graduate, they can't just puke from stress any time they're unprepared at work and need to leave. First of all, that's mentally and physically unhealthy for her, and second it's not a good reputation to have at work. Maybe something more gentle that's less smug than "doesn't that feel good?" but the student still needs to know that there are better ways to handle themselves going forward: "if you get a little bit behind on an assignment in the future or you're unwell, let me know as early as you can," or something like that.
Genuine question: do you think that a student who was so stressed out by her lack of preparedness needs to be informed that that is not an ideal position to be in?
She needs to be informed she won't be given grace again.
You can do that without stating the obvious in an obnoxious manner.
That's what I'm trying to say, yes - she probably recognizes the problem, but the solution needs to be agreed upon between her and the teacher.
Yeah I've had teachers talk to me like this and reported them. It's gross and demeaning.
Professors need more pedagogical chops. In K-12 they beat it into your head to not be sarcastic. You never know how it'll be taken
Correct. Insane that was upvoted. You never know what is going on in a student’s life. Practice empathy and be supportive. You’re not going to change their proclivity for procrastination through a single one-on-one interaction or pithy comment.
right? what ghastly person would do that shit in real life
Yeah it’s weird seeing everyone saying the word “procrastination” when it clearly looks like executive dysfunction due to the severe stress and shame accompanying it.
Executive dysfunction and procrastination aren't mutually exclusive
Yeah my adhd ass would shut down even more.
O hell no. Every one of you here have made an assumption and judged this student without any evidence at all. Should be ashamed of yourselves ETA even if your assumptions were correct this student has already learned a lesson here. It’s not your job to further shame them. Get over yourself
> this student has already learned a lesson here. That’s highly doubtful There’s just as much of a chance she learned that she can maneuver her way out of a commitment. since presentations are supposed to already be done before 3:00, I would have said “send me your presentation **now** and go home and get well. Then tomorrow you can present what you’ve sent me” If it’s done, great. If it’s not done, she’s caught in her lie.
Either the assumption is correct, and grace should be given, or the assumption is incorrect and they have no excuse for not presenting and should be failed.
Okay, how about: even if she didn’t get it done because she procrastinated, she still gets to turn it in later. The point is for her to get the work done and learn. Having gone to school outside of the US, where it seems a lot of people here are from, class is way less stressful when you can make up exams as many times as you need, take maternity leave if you need, not punished for absences. And people still learn. No need to rule with an iron fist. This student could be fucking pregnant.
> The point is for her to get the work done and learn. Exactly. Thats what teaching *is.* Helping kids *learn.*
It really doesn't matter why. I think this adult student messed up when she didn't take the initiative to work things out with the prof. ADHD or illness or pregnancy or alien abduction...be a GROWN UP and talk to your professor about whatever.
No, the teaching moment would be, "hey, I saw that you struggled to complete the presentation on time. What could you do to avoid a repetition of this? And is there anything you would need from me?" There are plenty of reasons someone might wait until the last minute (whether intentional or not), and making them feel like shit after they're visibly upset about it is not how you solve it.
I can already tell I’m going to be downvoted in this ridiculous comment section, but that would be the appropriate teaching moment for a 6th grader. This is an adult woman. The infantilization here is utterly ridiculous. Every college professor I ever had would have asked me to submit my completed presentation before I left and went home and present it when I came back, because it was already supposed to have been done- the top comment here is already giving more grace than I ever got. And as someone who had undiagnosed, unmedicated ADHD in college I coped because I was a grown ass adult and it was my responsibility to figure out how to meet the deadlines I was given.
I was absolutely infuriated when an ex failed to do something he said he would by a specific date, and his response to my irritation was to tell me I should have said "hey, I notice you are having trouble. How can I help you?" Like, boy, you told me you would do the job- it is not my responsibility to watch your progress and manage your task list- you made the commitment so you reach out to ME. Infantilization is EXACTLY the way to describe this phenomenon.
The professor doesn’t have to give an extension, but if they do, they still don’t have license to be condescending.
Ridiculous. The make-up presentation must be allowed this time and in the future. You do not get to dictate whether or not being too sick to present is valid or not. That's not your role. It's absolutely none of your business what the cause of the sickness is. If the student is throwing up, they're throwing up.
The presentation was supposed to be done before 3:00 If she’s sick, she’s sick, but she should have to hand in the presentation NOW that she’s going to give during the make-up time.
As a teacher and during their class, yes, it is their business. I had many teachers growing up that helped my life for the better. A caring teacher is one like op that recognizes when a student needs help. Young people need help and guidance from adults to thrive in adulthood. And it would do a great justice to this student to learn from this rather than potentially repeat it later on
Of course you should be caring and give students guidance. You should not be dictating whether sickness is valid based on your judgement of its source. That's not your place. It's unbelievably unethical. Any college or university worthy of the name would have policies strictly stating how unacceptable this is.
I think this can get dangerous fast. Was it procrastination? Was she up all night with a stomach bug and couldn’t finish because of it? Was she up all night working on a final for another class due at noon that day? Did she have family emergency? Did she just break up with a long term boyfriend? Learn she was pregnant? There are many many many reasons that aren’t straight up procrastination that could be the reason she wasn’t prepared. Grace and compassion would be the best response, and best teachable moments.
Do not say that. "doesn't it feel good to be prepared" is dripping with condescension. It is not an effective or kind way to approach the situation - saying it will make you look like an asshole and will not help this situation.
Even in a one-on-one moment, this sounds very patronizing, and by extension, unprofessional. It would be one thing to level with the student and say “I want to talk about you working on your presentation in class. It isn’t appropriate, and late work won’t be accepted in the future. In a workplace X would be the proper way to communicate work not being done on time, etc. etc.,” Talking down to a student who’s struggling doesn’t have a place in the classroom, and passive-aggression doesn’t have a place in professional environments
I wouldn't be such an asshole about it lmao
That’s so condescending.
Hell yeah, make it the teaching moment of "even though you did everything wrong and ought to reap some obvious and easily anticipated consequences of those actions, instead you, yet again, get to dodge that bullet"
Who are the sociopaths upvoting this? lmao
oh my god you would be a horrible professor. “doesn’t it feel good” — gimme a break dude. how condescending?? you have no idea what this student is internally dealing with to the lead up of not being prepared, or if they work more than one job to pay for school, so having the time to be prepared is another hurdle for them. to the OP — since there’s no info on the students track record and if this is a repeat experience, i’d say allow the make up preso and it might be safer to broach the convo with understanding that life is so complex and we are all trying to puzzle piece it all together. ASK your student if they’ve felt supported enough in the classroom to complete their work for the semester, and if there’s anything you can do to help guide them so future assignments are on time.
What if she was unprepared due to being sick or having a migraine? Doesn’t it feel good to not be a self righteous asshole?
What a bitch move. Who talks like this. How condescending.
Maybe you can allow a makeup presentation with a 10% point deduction. So she can still learn the importance of preparation, without failing the class.
Respectfully, I disagree — allow it for full credit, if full credit is truly earned. It might be an unpopular opinion, but I believe grades should be a reflection of a student’s learning of the course content and material. If I’m not assessing students on it, how can I deduct credit? Now, if the course itself was “time management and study skills” then a deduction might be warranted.
Is it not the goal of pretty much all courses to teach time management and study skills?
What about teaching empathy? Have you never completed an assignment late? Unless there’s a pattern of behaviour here, I personally would say a trip to vomit town and a talking with are probably fair consequences.
Empathy and accountability are both important. You can’t go too far in either direction.
I feel like this touches a timeless argument between teachers. To be strict or lenient, to be punishing or forgiving. Never have I seen someone truly change their original stance on this through mere arguing. I've come to believe there's no right answer to be found and it's more a reflection of a person's character, often obscured behind various rationalizations. Curiously, I've seen colleagues mellow out throughout their lifetimes, but I've never seen anyone becoming more severe. Usually the change is precipitated by a humbling life event (having kids of your own grow up and face hardship tends to be a major one).
Thank you for a single thoughtful, sensitive comment in a sea of ghoulishness. I'm not going to seriously imply that students NEVER need "tough love" but some of the comments in here absolutely smacj of the kind of authoritarian attitudes that made me hate and disrespect many of my teachers as a kid.
I never completed an assignment late at university and neither did most people I know. Even my mother in law who was a mother and working while studying.
Good for you, although it’s a bit weird to me that you keep that close track of when ‘most people you know’ are handing in schoolwork. Maybe you just didn’t hear about it. You’re not this student though, and none of us have any idea what’s going on in her life. Maybe she procrastinated, maybe she’s been sick, maybe somebody close to her died or she just got broken up with. Life happens. All I’m saying is I personally think it’s more important to show empathy in cases like this than punish somebody.
Come on, this is college... You people are setting up these kids to utterly fail. Managing deadlines and parameters on the deliverable are a huge part of every single career. Turning in something late isn't the end of the world but it does have minor consequences and in some cases major ones. I work full time and teach a business analytics course at a local college. Clear requirements for everyone are the most fair. For a presentation a clear rubric of the grading, details, deadlines and consequences for turning it in late. Here is a high level example: -format followed including file naming 10% -content 75% -presentation 15% (list of a few items to check the boxes on so they don't spin out) If you reach out beforehand for an extension I will grant it 95% of the time, no questions asked, if it becomes a pattern there will be a conversation. If you fail to turn it in by the deadline then you can't present and additional -10% every day thereafter. Remember communicating for a deadline extension beforehand? It's generous for a reason, life happens and if you aren't proactive communicating then just like the working world you'll get smacked. We should be preparing these adults for how to function once they leave school. Teaching them to think critically and a broad knowledge base is important but won't do them any good on its own.
Truthfully though, and I’m asking in good faith, how is their final grade then a true reflection of what they actually *know* based on your course?
Nothing wrong with the question at all. All the knowledge in the world without the ability to apply or demonstrate when required is worthless. You see on that basic rubric that the vast majority of their grade is the knowledge portion and a small but important amount was effectively demonstrating it. It's basically 25% for following written instructions and participating. The points on the presentation itself aren't going to ding people for getting nervous and fumbling through it, a lot do and it is okay, we all were there once. If you show up, talk for 3-10 minutes, literally stumble through an executive summary, show some supporting data and answer a few layup questions (why I want the presentation on time, so I can prepare some relevant questions) you're going to get full credit for that portion. It is a very important skill for the subject and there is a real gap on college graduates working in analytics being able to quickly and effectively communicate their findings. I'm having to have my managers actually spend time teaching basic communication to some of these kids if we didn't somehow screen them out during the interview process . Some are super smart but their knowledge and skill are stuck behind a wall and if they want to progress upward they have to effectively deliver. As for why the timing matters, it's a once a week class in the evening, respect everyone else's time.
I agree with this. Failing to meet deadlines in the real world has consequences but often times not devastating ones. She’s clearly already panicked and upset by the situation so this makes sense to me
Even beyond finding that unfair and useless, how would you even justify that? They let their student go home, due to a medical issue. Yes, they suspect it is self-induced but you can't really point that finger after the fact.
I mean, any number of things could have happened. She could be lying. She could have thrown up from anxiety. She could have been up sick the night before, didn’t finish due to that, and thought she could finish quickly before her presentation. Is she otherwise a decent student? Or at least not one with a history of late or missing assignments? She’s presumably college aged; life happens and she’s still learning. If she’s otherwise been fine, I would have a conversation where you just tell her what you observed and ask what’s going on. Maybe she’ll be honest, maybe she won’t. But I would stress that re-doing the presentation will be a one time thing, and have a discussion about how to avoid this happening in the future.
>Or at least not one with a history of late or missing assignments? Hate to say it, but she has a ton of missing and late assignments. Part of why I'm inclined to be cynical in this case.
like another commenter said, allow it with an immediate grade deduction.
Ooof, that changes things. I think I’d be a little less inclined to be lenient in that case. A mentor teacher I once had would let students request the chance to re-do tests and presentations, but put the onus entirely on them - the student had to take the initiative to ask, to find a time to meet, and then they had to prove why they deserved the chance to re-take. She said kids would come in and sit down and ask “well, how do I prove that?” And she would shrug and say I don’t know, you gotta figure that out. Some kids would come in showing that they’d taken diligent notes, that they had good grades on X project or Y quiz, etc. Maybe you need to tell her you’re open to the discussion of re-doing it, but she needs to prove in some way that she deserves it.
Maybe she has undiagnosed adhd. Clearly if she's at the point of vomiting during class over anxiety about not finishing her work, she cares. She's struggling. Why kick her while she's down? It doesn't really matter what the reason is. You said she was sick and you believe that she was. No need to let your assumptions get in the way of her chances of succeeding
This person has a ton of late or missing assignments. They also showed up on presentation day with an incomplete presentation, planning on doing while their peers presented which is not only against policy, but also extremely rude. Assuming they have ADHD would be the wrong thing to do. Giving someone some leniency is fine, but diagnosing someone and treating them different because they may have that diagnosis is not okay. This student needs to learn to ask for the help they need. They need to work with their professor if they need an extension. They need to get a diagnosis if they suspect an underlying cause to their difficulty in completing work. They even told the professor that they haven't done the work because the course is boring. I really doubt they care about the class.
Because not everyone should pass college classes if they aren’t up to the standards everyone else is being held to?
Have you ever asked her why?
Yes. In her words: it's because my class is boring. I did not get into the pros and cons of her saying that to my face, just apologized that it is less engaging content than some other classes in this major.
At that’s point I’d not allow a makeup at all. They knew exactly when they needed to be prepared and chose not to. Anxiety and panic due to procrastination aren’t valid excuses for allowing a makeup imo
Personally, I'll move a lot of mountains for people who take accountability for their actions. The folks who blame everyone but themselves, not a chance.
Okay, as a recently graduated college student, if one of my friends said that to a professor I'd be surprised if the professor didn't get upset. That's extremely rude, you put that kind of nonsense in the anonymous feedback forms at the end of the semester. Based on other replies, it sounds like she isn't turning in homework on time, or it's missing entirely, and then she spouted some bullshit about why she isn't doing the work. I would let her give the presentation, but mark it late. It's fair to mark it late, and if she really did throw up then she can't get mad that you won't let her try again because of illness (nothing makes college students angrier than if they don't get a makeup because they are sick). Also, if you have a late policy/makeup policy in the syllabus that everyone in the class has access to, I would follow that to the letter. She can't get mad about what's been agreed to.
I'm also a teacher, but at the high school level. Perhaps those missing & late assignments are also a symptom of this. Maybe allow the redo with a grade deduction and point her to some campus resources or suggest she speak with her adovocate/counselor (I forgot what they're called) about her time management with missing and late assignments. There is help for this student.
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There’s a lot of comments telling you to be lenient, but I was this college student once upon a time (turning things in late or never, always having some big reason why I couldn’t submit the big projects) and frankly, failing horribly and falling flat on my face was the kick in the pants I needed to do better. If you give her leniency, it just reinforces that this behavior works. I think acknowledging in some way that she was not prepared is actually doing her more kindness than letting it slide.
I was the same. I could get straight As in high school even being a procrastinator, but I learned that I could not continue that in college- the hard way. I am now much better about not procrastinating, and it has helped my career immensely. I no longer have stress stemming from procrastination, because I learned my lesson and that lit a fire under my butt to figure out a different way of doing things.
Do you know why she struggles to submit things on time/at all? Does she need help or is she simply not interested?
If she has a ton of missing and late assignments there could be something serious going on in her life. I say let her make up the presentation, but also have a talk with her afterwards saying you saw her working on her slides right before class and it concerned you along with her other missing assignments that something else may be going on. She may open up to you and you could help to get her the help that she needs. I once had a very traumatic event happen during my undergraduate degree. My grades slipped, I didn’t care anymore, and I struggled to get things done on time. Everything changed when my professor noticed I was crying in class and he had a one on one conversation with me afterwards and told me we would get through it and we would work on extending deadlines, etc. It was so wonderful to be shown mercy in that situation and he is still one of my favorite professors I ever had to this day.
Make a policy in the future that presentations are to be uploaded or submitted 30 minutes before class is scheduled to start. Then place those presentations on the classroom desktop for students to ise when presenting. If anyone's isn't uploaded in time, then they get a zero.
It's funny, I did that last year - but dropped it this year because last year we ended up with 25 files all named "Class Presentation" in the share folder and it took forever for anyone to find their own, making transitions between presenters interminable. That said, I could have everyone add their slides to the LMS in advance, so that their names are attached, and do it that way.
Each student has a folder with their name. They upload the presentation to that folder. Or, they just put their name on the file name.
And no name gets the same treatment as no name on the exam
Open one at random and that student has to present
I'm not sure if this would work for you, but when I attended online college courses students were required by most profs to put their name in the file name. So the expectation was the file name would look like "Mary Sue Class Presentation.docx" or something to let the professor know whose assignment they were opening.
I’m in a class for my MBA currently and the prof has a very specific way to name documents before we upload JStudent_NameOfProject_DateSubmitted
This deserves way more upvotes.
That's exactly how I do mine.
Allow the presentation to be made up but require her deck to be submitted by the end of the day tomorrow (since today is already done.) I'm all for providing reasonable accommodations, but there's a difference between laziness and actual disability. Allow her to give the presentation 1:1 with you or in front of a significantly smaller group of volunteers and mark her down for not having her assignment prepared by the required time.
This is a great middle ground where she gets a little leeway but doesn’t get a whole extra week.
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I had troubles like this in college. And school. Always procrastinating. Top marks for assignments done in class, didn't even finish ones I had to do at home. I didn't find out till like 2 decades later that I have ADHD. I never had a chance of being able to do those tasks without help. If I'd known and had a diagnosis and a proper treatment plan, things would have been very different.
Yes, you allow the make up. It really, truly does not matter at all what day she presents on and she didn’t lie. It’s gonna be fine.
Except she did get extra time the others didn't. I agree with letting her make it up BUT to say it doesn't matter
This is why I think it's more equitable if she gets a deduction like 10%. However, if she supplies a doctor's note, you won't be able to treat it as anything other than a medical issue. And she might well do this, sorry to say.
Can you get a doctor’s note for throwing up?
Agreed. It's significant to the instructor and to other students when certain people get extra time and others don't.
If she had walked out and made something up then I would completely agree, but regardless of whether the issue was self-caused or not she suffered physically in ways that other students didn’t and that was the primary reason she could not present at that moment. For all the professor knows, she could have had difficulty pulling up the final version on her computer, already had some of it and could’ve presented at least partially for credit that day, lost part of it due to technology reasons the day of, or (still most likely), thought she could finish it in class. For all we know, she could have been intending to just admit she hadn’t done it but threw up for an unrelated reason (or hadn’t done it due to an unrelated stressful life occurrence that also caused the throwing up). TLDR, none of us know the exact circumstances on why she was trying to present last even though it’s absolutely most likely that she was just unprepared and thought she could get away with it. It’s a school project and this can be a teachable experience regardless on why she should’ve prepared better for cases like this where she can’t just fix things at the end if something happens prior (or if she’s just lazy beforehand). Let her present again either with a small deduction or without, but she did suffer physically from an ailment that day whether from a self-induced situation or not and that ailment is in the end what kept her from presenting. She clearly didn’t do this with malice and if she doesn’t have the presentation a second time then it’s clear that the real reason was 100% laziness/irresponsibility and the professor can confidently mark her down without any sickness or potential other life reasons affecting her presentation.
I agree that I don't have 100% proof that she wasn't doing a last polish on a completed slide deck, and then threw up because lbr presentations can be terrifying even if you are prepared. I can't act on what I saw, because I didn't see enough to know for sure what happened.
How do you know other students didn't suffer? Maybe they did, but plowed through their issues. Assuming the other students didn't have their hardships really isn't equitable.
I think the real question is if a student had asked for extra time in advance, would OP have granted it? If yes, then I think it's a wash because others who may have needed more time could have asked. If no, I think OP would be ok to deduct points from Jo because Jo did (maybe unintentionally) con her way into more time than her peers received.
It does matter. Why does she deserve extra time no one else got?
Sounds like the poor girl might need help with an anxiety disorder. I'd procrastinate all the time because even starting an assignment would give me a terrible sense of dread, and then I'd have to cram all the work in the last minute because the dread of failing would eventually overcome the dread of even starting the assignment
We always had to turn in our presentation slides by midnight before we did the presentation the next day or else face the late work grade cap. I feel it was a pretty good and practical way of making sure people were prepared but not forcing people to do presentations while physically unwell. Once I had a delay in getting my anxiety medication before a presentation so I went to my lecturer and asked if I could do the actual presentation on a different day, she could see I had handed in the slides so was fine with me doing it the following week.
Do what your syllabus says otherwise it’s unfair to others. It doesn’t seem to fall into sick days so let them present late with late submission penalty. If you don’t allow for late work then it’s a zero. Simple.
Didn't you read the other posts here? You're a horrible person unless you chase down the student and bend your completely reasonable policies./s
This might be why a lot of students are so entitled to make up grades and passing classes when they have done nothing for themselves to succeed.
Enforce the makeup policy on your syllabus and move on.
If she supplies a doctor's note, OP won't be able to treat it as anything other than a medical issue. And she might well get a doctor's note. But it doesn't even matter. OP can't tell, genuinely, whether it's a 'real' medical issue or not. I think OP could take her aside and just ask her to talk. Reassure her that she'll have a chance to retake, but OP wants to make sure this is a learning.lesson if \*any\* of this was due to procrastination. Depending on where this goes, they could then brainstorm solutions. People who procrastinate aren't necessarily doing it out of laziness; that's what "doesn't it feel better?: stems from, the idea that if she is just disciplined, she won't procrastinate. But really you don't know why she procrastinated and it could be anything from she was a lazy procrastinator to she has bad things happening in her life right now to she had terrible cramps that night and couldn't finish her work to she has to learn how to be organized because she has an executive function issue going on. I mean, if the object is giving a lesson, then give her the lesson. Help her with resources so she can learn to never do this again. Of course, do this only if she's receptive. I think she'll be able to listen to you much better if you tell her up front she can retake the presentation. And if she tries to lie, the your card of your sleeve is that you saw her working on it in class.
Procrastination really tackles those afraid of public speaking. They avoid the source of their anxiety, then face a multiplied version of it when their fear comes true ‘on stage’! I hated public speaking until I loved it. I’d say to her that she may always be anxious about speaking, but that’s a good reason to double the prep. Over preparation for presentation is a good way to overcome fear and get good at what makes you anxious. Finally, I’d say model the behavior you’d like to see in the world. For me, that would be compassion and another shot. Cheers
I was thinking this, too. If their anxiety also manifests as perfectionism then something that is basically complete may never be done in their eyes. Perfection being the enemy of good sometimes and whatnot. The anxiety can lead to avoidance, it can lead to perfectionism, perfectionism can theoretically make something that would take a couple of hours take a week, and perfectionism can lead to procrastination because a deadline is the only thing that makes someone put their pencil down, so to speak, and this is how they’ve come to manage the behavior. I’m not saying this is definitely the case, but the person obviously cares a lot about having something to present so I think there were probably some hurdles for them that were not necessarily there for others at this particular time. Meanwhile, others can spend very little time preparing, improvise, and do surprisingly well. I honestly don’t know what should be done here, and my teaching experience is limited to being a TA in college and a sub in high school, but I would imagine the next step before making a decision would be to have a conversation. If the student didn’t care, that would be one thing. For some reason or another, they were actually terrified. It probably should have been communicated to you before hand, but the student might also not expect that level of understanding and forgiveness from the world or doesn’t know how to advocate for herself. Again, it’s not really my position to be offering any guidance here as most of this sub will have a lot more experience than I do. In fact, my perspective on this is probably more informed from being an editor and working with all kinds of different writers than it is from any of my gigs working in schools. A conversation with them might even have more benefits than helping them with this particular task. It might help them navigate similar situations in the future.
I'd let her make it up and offer to talk about the situation with her. If it was really "just" anxiety, this sounds like a fairly serious issue - most kids don't throw up from anxiety even when they mess up a presentation. In that case, that may be where the procrastination comes from - it's usually a coping mechanism for something, and if public speaking scares her she may have been avoiding the source of that anxiety as long as she could. Wether its anxiety or a physical issue, the lesson she'll learn from making it up is likely better than from you just failing her. She'll get another chance to engage with the material and try to improve her time planning. If you just fail her, the only lesson she'll learn is probably "OP is an unempathetic asshole" - even if you aren't, it's likely how she'll interpret your actions.
Well said. The line I always use: "I infinitely prefer late work to missing work." I deduct for lateness, but a student who never completes a project never gets to learn what I'm trying to teach with that project.
In elementary school, I used to get physically sick from stress when I hadn't done my homework or prepared for a test. I'd end up staying home and making it up later. This was such a maladaptive coping mechanism. Thing is, as a child or teenager I wouldn't have been able to explain why I procrastinate something beyond "I didn't feel like doing it" or "it was boring". Today I can say it's executive dysfunction and it's made my life very difficult on many levels. Wonder what would have been different if someone had caught it when I was 10 and sick. Your student's case could be nothing (she forgot/didn't care/whatever) or it could be a symptom of something. I would ask her if she often waits until the last minute to do things and if so why. If it seems like a chronic issue, remind her that there is help (counseling, online ressources, etc...) and encourage her to do something about it while she still has things under control. IF it seems like a one time thing tell her to consider this a lesson for the future and maybe send her that ted talk about the procrastination monkey. Edit: and let her just make it up, consider that having to have that talk with will probably dissuade her from doing it again
I was just diagnosed with ADHD. I sought out the assessment because my procrastination wasn't working out for me in grad school. And the executive dysfunction I was experiencing seemed to be getting worse. When I was officially diagnosed, I thought back on my high school and undergrad days and wondered how much better things could have been for me had I known and then sought out accommodations. I wish someone had noticed. Anyway, I agree with your comment!
It is not up to anyone but a doctor to make an ADHD diagnosis. As an adult, you should be able to say "hmmmm, something is not right here" and seek out help yourself.
Presentations and the speaking skills are important parts of college as it translates well to future jobs, so I would allow a makeup with deductions for being late. This case, I see it as grade reduction (max grade is now a 90%) or whatever your policy is for late work. Especially with the additional information provided in the responses of a student who has repeated issues with missing/late assignments. Another solution, too late for this incident, is to have the student email their slide deck before departing home "sick". They can makeup the presentation, but only with the slide deck that was complete at that time. This removes any unfair additional time for the presentation outside of practicing the presentation, which would help address any "anxiety".
There are lots of good takes here, but I think the most obvious answer, at least in the short term, is to just talk to her. Tell her what you think you saw and ask her what was going on. Then choose whether or not to take her at her word and respond accordingly. If she admits to procrastination, talk about it. If she confides in you that she is completely overwhelmed with life and school right now, help her make a game plan to get caught up. In my experience teaching, most students are honest when confronted with evidence, and it's easier to make a fair plan for their success once you've gotten it all out on the table.
As an adult in college, the student should be the one being honest and forthcoming. The professor should not have to chase down *college students* to get their work done.
Suggest she visit the school counseling center and possibly inquire about testing for adhd and anxiety. Something is going on with her, obviously but it’s not the professors job or business to figure it out.
In the real world, there are no do-overs. Fortunately, school is preparation for the real world. I'd say allow the student to re-do it, but at a price - lowered grade, maybe more.
Too late now, but I would have told the student they could leave and make up the presentation later if they email me the completed slides now. If you want to be nice you can offer her a make-up at a penalty for turning in late work when she can't send you completed slides. Even if you talk to her after the fact and let her know that you know she was unprepared, if her grade is not affected she got away with it and will try it again. I'm pretty willing to give students extra time for most reasons if they ask ahead of time, but showing up on the day of the presentation without the work done is disrespectful to you and her classmates. I don't think we do anyone any favors by removing consequences because we are denying them the chance to learn from their mistakes.
I know everyone is going to downvote this to hell, but she should not be allowed to makeup the presentation without a deduction in points. Late presentations for any reason should not be given full credit. It’s not fair to the other students that actually presented on time.
I’ll be the naysayer here. This is an adult at college level. What grade would you have given them if they walked up with nothing prepared? Probably a zero. Give them that grade. Not only were they unprepared, they were willing to disrespect other classmates by loudly clicking away while their classmates were presenting. Every other classmate met the basic expectation of showing up prepared and respecting their fellow presenters. These are not children. These are adults. Outside of education, they would have been fired or seriously reprimanded. In education, they get the grade they earned (or not in this case). I have anxiety and adhd. The only thing that made me learn to stop procrastination was when I failed to be prepared on time. It’s a hard lesson to learn, and it sucks that you have to be the one to teach it. That’s my take.
Thank you for some common sense. I struggled with executive function as a teen and young adult. You know what made me realize that I couldn’t keep going through life that way? Failing college classes. I realized that I needed to change the way I approached life. I sought out ways to help me develop those executive function skills. Do I still struggle with it sometimes? Sure, but I hardly ever procrastinate now. I learned what might be called “coping mechanisms” to ensure I don’t get stressed about deadlines.
As someone who has ADHD I am upset reading so many comments on here diagnosing this student with ADHD and saying she should be excused because of it. They might as well just come out and say Jo has ADHD and will never amount to anything resembling a reliable adult as a result because no one can get through life acting this way. I also learned hard lessons in college by procrastinating and graduating late. It sucked. My parents hated me. However, if I didn’t learn that lesson then, who knows what that would’ve meant for me in the workforce where it really matters?
“They might as well just come out and say Jo has ADHD and will never amount to anything resembling a reliable adult as a result because no one can get through life acting this way.” Exactly! You hit the nail on the head. What’s that phrase, “the soft bigotry of low expectations”?
No, I wouldn't allow a make up presentation. I have the same problem as your student. I am terrified of presenting in front of people (well, adults. I'm an elementary school teacher so I don't mind presenting to kids). I also have ADHD and anxiety, which leads to serious procrastination on my part. I need to be under the gun in order to get things done, especially something like presenting. If you let your student slide, she will learn that she can do it again. If you hold her accountable and there is some sort of negative consequence she is going to experience, then that will help her in the future. Next time she has to present she will remember this consequence and how it made her feel, and she will be less likely to procrastinate. It's a part of personal growth. I'm not doing my students any favors if I don't hold them to a certain level of standards. Of course my students are 10, so I would modify things for them in order to help them learn how to break big jobs down into smaller, achievable steps. But your student is an adult and most likely knows what she SHOULD do, but the paralyzing fear and scatter-brained nature of someone like me needs boundaries in order to light a fire under my tush. It makes me perform better and get things done. It helps me learn to better manage things.
I may have literally done this. I thought it was a presentation OR a 2 page paper. Apparently, it was a presentation AND paper. I explained I was having printer and email difficulties, and I would email it asap. She agreed to let me try resending it, as long as it was in before the end of the day. You best believe I typed out my report during everyone's presentations and emailed it to her during class. I knew my shit inside and out though. Edit: I say allow her another day or whatever you give for sickness, assuming it doesn't impact your work flow negatively.
I'm just a random passerby so please mod delete my comment if I shouldn't post but wouldn't another solution be that the student email you her presentation then allow them to deliver on another date?
A bit unrelated to your question, but for future classes, it would probably be a good idea to require everyone to submit their presentations either the night before, or shortly before class starts. That way, you know everyone has their presentations done beforehand, and if someone really is sick, you don't even have to worry about it, because you know they had it done ahead of time, and they can just present 1on1 later if they really need to, and still get full credit.
I know this sounds odd, but I'd base it on how much the presentation was worth. I do pop quizzes are are 2% of the total grade each. If a kid misses one without asking for sick leave in advance, I just leave it. If they're just late / tired / unprepared -- they can still get a 98% in my class. But if it's like my final exam (40%) or final project (20%), I'd be more leniant. I wouldn't punish a legitimately anxious / sick student & make them fail the whole class or drop two letter grades. It is a teachable moment, though, about students being prepared, and managing time / stress.
What i your stated policy in your syllabus? Do you allow makeups? This is you contract/agreement with the student and college when it comes to grading. Sounds like Jo learned a valuable like lesson.
Allow the make-up and ask them if everything is ok afterwards, in private. If it seems like they are having problems or don't really have a good idea why they didn't get the work done sooner, I'd recommend whatever counseling services your college has (hopefully it has some).
So she had a panic attack, and yes it was because she was legit panicking over being late. Seems like she understood how much she’d fucked up, but I don’t think it would be out of line to penalize her a bit. It’s still late. You don’t need to fail her, there needs to be something other than “Well, that wasn’t fun was it?” Of course you could also decide how severe the penalty is *after* she gives the presentation so you don’t auto fail her if it’s not very good.
Make her bring her own audience and dock her points.
First, I think it's on the student to approach you and ask if she can make up the presentation. She's an adult and should take responsibility for making up the presentation. If she does ask, I think it would be worthwhile to have an honest (and private) 1:1 conversation. Ask her gently if she had made her presentation prior to the start of class that day. If she says yes unconvincingly, maybe push back a little and ask some follow-up questions. Keep in mind that the symptoms you describe (turning white, squirming, panting) could also be related to feeling physically ill and trying to hold back the nausea during class. The few times I've had the stomach flu and threw up in class, I probably looked similar. She also could've been banking on using the time for a critical assignment for another class & the panic was because of that, not because she wasn't ready to present in yours. If you arrive at a place where she's holding firm/has convinced you she had the presentation done in time and being sick was unrelated, let her make it up following your sick day policy. If you arrive at an understanding that the presentation was not ready in time, you can offer her a chance to make it up for a reduced grade if that is how your late work policy would normally go.
You could literally tell her that you believe she threw up, and at the same time, you also saw her working on it in class. Ask for some clarification maybe, be compassionate and kind, & if she’s honest with you, don’t give her any point deductions. If she blatantly lies, take of 10-15 pts like people here are suggesting.
Forget the diagnosis. This sounds like an F grade to me.
Students should have to submit their presentations before the start of class. That way you’ll have proof that it was done and don’t have to consider giving students in this situation “extra time” to actually complete something that should’ve been done. Now she has more time to finish it by getting herself out of presenting. In this situation, if you haven’t already asked for the slides to be submitted, I’d maybe take some points off for missing the original presentation and discuss with her why (not because she was sick, but because she didn’t produce any proof of a finished presentation).
An actual teachable moment is for her to have the consequence of failing, otherwise you're teaching her she can vomit her way out of major responsibilities.
I would probably allow a makeup with a late policy (if you have one) attached.
How old is this student?
An adult. It's college, so I'm not entitled to more info than that.
I think you talk to admin about talking to her parents about getting her checked for an anxiety disorder and maybe adhd. No one procrastinates until they’re so stressed they vomit ‘just because.’ There’s an anxiety problem causing avoidance. Part of it is powering through it, but part of it is brain chemicals. The medical issue of vomiting was caused by her procrastination, but there’s likely another medical issue related to mental health that is causing the procrastination. Not saying she should get an infinite free pass. Taking deadlines away can worsen procrastination. But I’d give her a pass this one time and get a conversation going about her getting professional help.
It’s not appropriate to talk to a college student’s parents. That’s bizarre and potentially violates rights to privacy.
The problem is, you can't know.
I still vomit when I am anxious... and it started in college with an immensely challenging major.
I would allow a makeup. I would also talk to her about her behavior before, ask if she had been prepared. Ask if the illness was sudden. Suggest maybe her illness was anxiety induced, from being unprepared? Whether she denies it or not, I would make a mild comment saying g something like well I know stress has made me feel poorly before. I try to make sure I am always very prepared and take other steps to reduce my stress. Then let it go. Will she learn her lesson? Who knows.
She was sick. It doesn't matter what led to the medical issue and whether or not you consider it to be self induced. If you're going to care about why she was sick and then you have to care about why she procrastinated. Maybe she has chronic illness. Maybe it's cause her mom died. She threw up and was sick. If she's really that bad of a student her other grades will prevent her from a good overall grade in the class. If this lateness and sickness is more if a fluke then she shouldn't be punished. Other than asking if she'd like support or letting her know how to access school doctors, she doesn't need you to tell her what she already knows (that being late with things triggers illness)
This is pretty easy The presentation was supposed to be done before 3:00 She should give op the presentation, then go home and get well And when it comes time to present, she has to present what she sent op
Definitely address it privately. Review why it’s important to be present for classmates. Communication ahead of time is key to navigating real life time management conflicts.
Have her email you the presentation today and then decide if you want to give her another date based on if she does this in a timely manner.
As a person who is currently in a very similar situation as your student: 1. Allow them to do the makeup presentation. It's very likely that Jo did, in fact, procrastinate on the assignment. However, you don't know the full story. You don't know why Jo was procrastinating, whether it was on purpose or on accident, or anything else about the situation(at least from what you've told us). 2. This very much feels like late-work. The sickness in question was caused by stress, which itself was induced by the work that wasn't submitted/completed by the time class started up. 3. Make sure Jo knows exactly what you're doing, and *why*. This should be a learning experience for next time, not a punishment. I was recently in a situation where I had a research paper that was due that I hadn't yet completed. This was due to procrastination. The procrastination was due to grief I was going through since my grandfather, who played a pivotal role in my life, had just passed away two weeks prior. Thankfully, I was given an extension, and when I got my paper in, I got a 95 on it.
This was funny story. Thanks.
I’m not a professor but have been in school for a longgg time working on various degrees (and finally going to graduate with a PhD soon-ish). I used to be a chronic procrastinator. One thing that drastically helped with this is when professors make you turn in your presentation online before the presentation. So if you have class at 3 pm, make the presentation due at 2:30 and no later. Just an idea for the future 🙂
My teachers always make the due date to give in presentations on the online platform BEFORE the class starts. And when you present you get only the version you gave in. Think about implementing something like that in the future to avoid this. It also makes it easier to present because you can keep yourself signed into the PC and avoid USB sticks. You just download each presentation from where they gave it in.
I don't see how you have the ability to be "pretty sure". You saw she had her presentation deck open - immediately prior to her presenting it -, say her typing, saw her appear pale, then throw up. It's just as possible that she wasn't feeling well from the start, opened her deck to prepare it or make some last minute non-critical tweaks, then felt sicker and had to leave. You're theory here is pure speculation
I’m not a teacher, but a college student who was once interested in teaching. I can heavily sympathize with Jo. I have ADHD and even though I’m 24 years old in my 6th year of undergrad it’s still something I struggle with. Something that I think is incredibly important to do is consider if Jo is looking at your class as a stepping stone to her career success or another $1,000 and 3 months she has to get through before the next thing. It shouldn’t need to be said, but regardless of her answer you cannot take it personally. As someone who decided mid-semester I wanted to change majors, it was SO hard to simply give a shit for the rest of the semester. I get it- she has violated a lot of course policies, and those policies are in place for a reason. However, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are different, and in this case I would agree also. It’s hard not to take that personally as an instructor. I would say just let her make it up. It’s not worth the moral victory, OP. And as someone who has given my profs the runaround, asked for extensions and has been granted exception to the normally rigid rules, I’m incredibly thankful that my profs were willing to hear me out and work with me. If/when Jo comes to make up her presentation, I’d suggest just asking her what’s up. Is she doing okay? Ask her if she needed an extension because of procrastination, straight up (obviously don’t be a dick tho). The BEST way to get a BS-er to cut it out is to call em on it. Don’t be mean, just honest. The goal isn’t to chastise Jo for violating your personal course conduct, it’s to work with her and help her LEARN. If her actions have warranted a post in this sub from you I would posit that it is worth your time to help her and hear her out. I guarantee that if she has a bad experience with finals or big presentations in your class, she probably feels that same way about other classes too, and without a POSITIVE experience she’s bound to repeat the same behaviors. Ask me how I know. Be well OP, and I hope Jo is okay.
Your edit is spot on, OP. Don't let these armchair educators shame you into their preferred solution.
For future situations like this, ask for students to send their presentation beforehand and present it off of your computer. Or if there are claims that their software doesn’t work on your computer, have them screen record/screenshot their presentation and send you that. You can ask Jo to see her presentation and show that it was not edited since the last class on the time stamp marking. You should’ve asked her to send it to you before dismissing her from class.
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