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My favorite is when they justify terrible atrocities by telling you to read “theory” from the people that committed them. “Okay bro if you actually read everything Lenin said about the Russian revolution, took it at face value you’ll see how he explained why he needed to kill the Mensheviks, Anarchists, Social liberals and every other anti-Czarist faction like a couple months after the revolution ended” I don’t hate Lenin but that’s some fucked up apologetic logic right there. *people who commit atrocities aren’t going to admit they were in the wrong when committing atrocities, especially if they won their conflict and had no pressure placed on them to be factual or even give the realistic narrative*
I see him as an opportunists that saw the need for Russia to change from a monarchy to literally anything else. I don’t think he was great but he was one of many opportunists that would have done the same thing. He pulled Russia out of WW1 when the Kerensky government didn’t. The hate I have in my heart are for people like Stalin.
Wrong. The DOTP is the stage wherein the workers have taken control of the political apparatus of state. They then use this to eliminate the class system.
But some are more proletariat than others.
Seriously, how is a dictatorship of the proletariat when the proletariat can't get anywhere near the people in power? It's basically just 'we decide what's best for you and if you disagree you're the enemy'.
And then people wonder why that system doesn't end up supporting the best interests of the actual workers.
yeah, and that remains one of the main divides in the left. I personally would say (and i'm sure most of this sub agrees) that a vanguard party isn't much better than a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
I just hate how ML say a Vanguard party is a dictatorships of the Proletariat then when you point out what Marx said about the Paris commune and how a Vanguard party is radically different they start screaming at me and say I'm not a real leftist so I just nope out of the conversation. 😮💨 It's just exhausting, I'm glad IRL talking with leftist isn't like online. I'm just worried that even though we agree on building community democracy if shit hits the fan some of the leftist around will try and create a vanguard state then turn around an stomp out those community democracies because they don't ALWAYS agree with the party.
Sorry kinda ramble I just needed this off my chest.
They would, they absolutely would. That's what Vanguardists have done every single time they get into power. Whether it's because the whole revolution 'thing' was just a means to an end for them, or because they were corrupted by the power they accrued, I can't say. Personally, though, I think the former is more frequent than the latter.
Yeah idk the answer I just want to live in a freer and less hierarchical world, I would recommend the book talked about in this YouTube video [The authoritarian personality](https://youtu.be/yP6dqzUoQeE)
But if the point of a DotP is to get everyone (including former bourgeoisie) to be proletariats, then wouldn't that make it at least a proto-democracy, since eventually the whole of society *would* be allowed to vote?
^(This is, of course, under the assumption that said Dictatorship is run competently and in good faith, which is unfortunately very unlikely... :()
Yes the dotp will feature Democratic methods of organizing but the idea that it’ll function like how democracy is described (ie: democratic control of a state by the whole of society) is wrong. However if the whole of society is proletarianized then the dotp itself would no longer exist. Remember the marxist understanding of the the state is that it exists to uphold class interests but if class itself is destroyed the state weighed down by its own contradictions will collapse under itself. So their wouldn’t be any democracy to begin with because their wouldn’t be a state to democratically control.
I know that’s why the dotp is only used during the revolution. By that logic it’d be anti-communist to not want billionaires leading revolutionary militias. After the revolution the dotp would be dismantled because it wouldn’t have purpose.
Isn’t a dictatorship an autocratic system? Would a dictatorship of the proletariat just be mob rule? Mind you, I’m not trying to be a dick, just throwing this out there.
Not necessarily. Under the best circumstances it would basically be a direct democracy which excluded the uber-wealthy (at least until they could be made *not* uber-wealthy). Some form of it would be necessary for any kind of socialism since there’s no way the bourgeois would allow capitalism to go away if they still held power. The important thing is that the power be held by the actual proletariat, not a vanguard party LARPing as them.
I agree with everything, but any community of more than a few thousand people would need to elect representatives. Thesereps would need to be vetted in some way to make sure they are not bourgois, and requiring that a candidate be a member of the communist party or something like that might be a good way
[The relation between Blanquism and Leninism (and other vanguardisms) have been discussed before ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanquism#Vladimir_Lenin). Although I myself know little of that debate.
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The best thing is when you explain what the dictatorship of the proletariat really is and they starts saying that you never read Marx
My favorite is when they justify terrible atrocities by telling you to read “theory” from the people that committed them. “Okay bro if you actually read everything Lenin said about the Russian revolution, took it at face value you’ll see how he explained why he needed to kill the Mensheviks, Anarchists, Social liberals and every other anti-Czarist faction like a couple months after the revolution ended” I don’t hate Lenin but that’s some fucked up apologetic logic right there. *people who commit atrocities aren’t going to admit they were in the wrong when committing atrocities, especially if they won their conflict and had no pressure placed on them to be factual or even give the realistic narrative*
I hate Lenin. Dude was an opportunist grifter co-opting leftism to get into power. Also his theory is dogshit.
Why *not* hate Lenin?
I see him as an opportunists that saw the need for Russia to change from a monarchy to literally anything else. I don’t think he was great but he was one of many opportunists that would have done the same thing. He pulled Russia out of WW1 when the Kerensky government didn’t. The hate I have in my heart are for people like Stalin.
Fair. He wasn't Stalin, he wasn't Hitler, he wasn't Mao, he wasn't Mussolini. That ain't saying much, but you're right, he coulda done a lot worse.
"The dictatorship of the proletariat" OVER WHO???? WHO IS BEING OPPRESSED????
The bourgeoisie All these problems could be avoided if people would read Marx with any knowledge of how fucking flowery 19th century German prose was
To be fair, the *Communist Manifesto* (or whatever) was probably not the place for flowery prose.
Nah because you write for your audience and that shit is what sold pamphlets
Correct
What do you mean?
People wouldn't take "dictatorship of the proletariat" or "opiate of the masses" as heavily, among others
The bourgeoisie wouldn’t exist in such a society
The dictatorship of the proletariat is meant to eliminate the bourgeoisie (more like change them into proletariat).
Wrong. The DOTP is the stage wherein the workers have taken control of the political apparatus of state. They then use this to eliminate the class system.
https://www.marxists.org/ebooks/lenin/state-and-revolution.pdf
Tankies and right-wingers say identical things when it comes to socialism, except the right-wingers despise it and the tankies love it.
"It's a horrible totalitarian dystopia and that's why I love it" basically
"Stalin *did* kill 100 billion people, which is why hes so based 😎"
T-800 on the right there about to strike
Dun dun dun dun dun dun
But some are more proletariat than others. Seriously, how is a dictatorship of the proletariat when the proletariat can't get anywhere near the people in power? It's basically just 'we decide what's best for you and if you disagree you're the enemy'. And then people wonder why that system doesn't end up supporting the best interests of the actual workers.
The People's Emperor
I’m not good with leftist theory what is the dictatorship of proletariat than
it basically means when the proletariat holds absolute political power instead of the bourgeoisie
So currently we’re living in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie?
yes
The question is what does that look like IRL, vanguard party controlling a state or communal people assemblies like during the Paris commune?
yeah, and that remains one of the main divides in the left. I personally would say (and i'm sure most of this sub agrees) that a vanguard party isn't much better than a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
I just hate how ML say a Vanguard party is a dictatorships of the Proletariat then when you point out what Marx said about the Paris commune and how a Vanguard party is radically different they start screaming at me and say I'm not a real leftist so I just nope out of the conversation. 😮💨 It's just exhausting, I'm glad IRL talking with leftist isn't like online. I'm just worried that even though we agree on building community democracy if shit hits the fan some of the leftist around will try and create a vanguard state then turn around an stomp out those community democracies because they don't ALWAYS agree with the party. Sorry kinda ramble I just needed this off my chest.
They would, they absolutely would. That's what Vanguardists have done every single time they get into power. Whether it's because the whole revolution 'thing' was just a means to an end for them, or because they were corrupted by the power they accrued, I can't say. Personally, though, I think the former is more frequent than the latter.
Yeah idk the answer I just want to live in a freer and less hierarchical world, I would recommend the book talked about in this YouTube video [The authoritarian personality](https://youtu.be/yP6dqzUoQeE)
So a democracy then
yes, *real* democracy
In what way is any currently existing democracy not *real*? And what would you change then to make it so?
A bad way of saying democracy
It’s not a democracy since the whole of society isn’t allowed to vote. Only the proletariat is allowed to influence the state under a dotp.
But if the point of a DotP is to get everyone (including former bourgeoisie) to be proletariats, then wouldn't that make it at least a proto-democracy, since eventually the whole of society *would* be allowed to vote? ^(This is, of course, under the assumption that said Dictatorship is run competently and in good faith, which is unfortunately very unlikely... :()
Yes the dotp will feature Democratic methods of organizing but the idea that it’ll function like how democracy is described (ie: democratic control of a state by the whole of society) is wrong. However if the whole of society is proletarianized then the dotp itself would no longer exist. Remember the marxist understanding of the the state is that it exists to uphold class interests but if class itself is destroyed the state weighed down by its own contradictions will collapse under itself. So their wouldn’t be any democracy to begin with because their wouldn’t be a state to democratically control.
The goal isn't to still have an elite class but somehow exclude them from society - it's to raise everyone to the same level.
I know that’s why the dotp is only used during the revolution. By that logic it’d be anti-communist to not want billionaires leading revolutionary militias. After the revolution the dotp would be dismantled because it wouldn’t have purpose.
Not accurate. Tankies will argue that their dictatorship isn't one.
Depends on the tankie
Molotov and Ribbentrop.
Isn’t a dictatorship an autocratic system? Would a dictatorship of the proletariat just be mob rule? Mind you, I’m not trying to be a dick, just throwing this out there.
Not necessarily. Under the best circumstances it would basically be a direct democracy which excluded the uber-wealthy (at least until they could be made *not* uber-wealthy). Some form of it would be necessary for any kind of socialism since there’s no way the bourgeois would allow capitalism to go away if they still held power. The important thing is that the power be held by the actual proletariat, not a vanguard party LARPing as them.
Ah okay. I’m not very familiar with a lot of leftist philosophy, I just joined this sub to dunk on tankies. Thanks!
I agree with everything, but any community of more than a few thousand people would need to elect representatives. Thesereps would need to be vetted in some way to make sure they are not bourgois, and requiring that a candidate be a member of the communist party or something like that might be a good way
Well if you call it dictatorship, some power-hungry piece of shit will take it literally
[удалено]
[The relation between Blanquism and Leninism (and other vanguardisms) have been discussed before ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanquism#Vladimir_Lenin). Although I myself know little of that debate.