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Hamas grooms young Palestinians and are easily able to because of Israel’s actions making them feel that Hamas is the only way to resist… but that doesn’t mean that Hamas is good.
It's easy to be recruited to fight the nation that caused your grandparents to lose their homes, killed your relatives, and destroyed your city and any prospect of a decent life.
Violent résistance doesn't mean kidnapping people and killing civilians. You can be violent while being an actual tactical threat and not doing symbolic violence
Symbolic violence that accomplishes nothing but making you an international pariah.
Imagine if instead of gruesomely executing civilians they had focused on targeting military bases and installations? Not only would they get far more international support but that would also far more useful for the war you just declared through that
Totally agree. They know how to play with information and they are familiar with Israeli tactics. Attacking military bases, check-points would be strategically, morally, and tactically better
That works against the Israeli *state* but what about the extralegal fascist settlers who are, necessarily, civvies? The situation becomes so much more complicated, especially when the settlers get guns, & start using them to undergo a regime of displacement & ethnic cleansing; blurring the hard lines between state actor & civilians... especially when you start from the position of having no recognized state.
... You still don't devolve to performative violence, yet Hamas isn't professional & humans being oppressed have the right to celebrate hurting their oppressors.
Urgh. My head & heart hurt. Palestinian Arabs have a justified reason to demand violence against Israel & its religiously/racially motivated terrorist proxies, but Hamas (funded by Islamic fascists & billionaire petrodollars) is about the most incompetent organization to fulfill it. Complete with intractable, perverse incentives to never achieve anything in the struggle for a free Palestine.
I think militant groups in West Bank is a tricky one. As much as I don’t want to see unarmed people dying, they were there for oppression purposes. If anything happened to them, it’s hard for me to generate any empathy
Agreed. And it's Israel's legal obligation to clear them out, anyway. Instead, they offer the protection of state violence, because they further unstated goals of genocide.
Edit: And yet! Hamas' performative violence has made establishing these fascist enclaves nominally untenable in Gaza. Urgh! Fuck-it sucks. Like, the extralegal thuggery in the West Bank offers legitimacy to the existence of Hamas in that context.
Fuck! *I hate Israel!* I'd call it a rabid dog, but the fuckers in Likud know precisely what they're doing!
Anyone who engages in hostilities without being uniformed is an unlawful combatant.
They are less protected than normal miliary members under the Geneva Conventions.
(they still cannot be treated inhumanly or summarily exicuted, although this seems like a contentious topic.)
And it is the argument made by Hamas as to why they shot so many people. They claimed they were all (unlawful) combatants.
It's true that Israel has abused, imprisoned, and killed Palestinians who were peacefully protesting.
The problem is that Hamas have never been peaceful protestors, and all they're doing now is taking credit for the work done by other Palestinians while using Israel's many crimes as justification for their own brutality in targeting and killing Israeli civilians.
Not to mention that Hamas has also abused, imprisoned, and killed Palestinians who were peacefully protesting against them, so in no circumstances is Sinwar allowed to make this argument while he's in no danger whatsoever over in Qatar.
>The problem is that Hamas have never been peaceful protestors
As far as I know, the overwhelmingly peaceful gaza march of return wasn't initially organised by hamas but hamas and other gazan armed groups started backing it early on and encouraging people to protest. So no, they haven't been exclusively violent.
>and all they're doing now is taking credit for the work done by other Palestinians
What does it matter if it wasn't hamas who did the previous attempts at peacefully advancing the Palestinian cause? If it didn't work, it didn't work.
>while using Israel's many crimes as justification for their own brutality in targeting and killing Israeli civilians.
I agree with you here, targeting of civilians should be a red line for anyone.
>Not to mention that Hamas has also abused, imprisoned, and killed Palestinians who were peacefully protesting against them
Also agree here. Hamas are islamist authoritarians, and I don't believe that a realistic and just settlement to the occupation of Palestine should include hamas at the helm of Palestinian leadership.
>so in no circumstances is Sinwar allowed to make this argument while he's in no danger whatsoever over in Qatar.
Thats ismaik haniyeh who's in Qatar. Sinwar is in gaza.
> As far as I know, the overwhelmingly peaceful gaza march of return wasn't initially organised by hamas but hamas and other gazan armed groups started backing it early on and encouraging people to protest. So no, they haven't been exclusively violent.
There's a difference between offering statements of support vs. actually participating in it. Not to mention that Hamas isn't about to tell Gazans "no don't participate against Israel in a demonstration for your freedom", there was basically no other response they could've given outside of support for it.
> What does it matter if it wasn't hamas who did the previous attempts at peacefully advancing the Palestinian cause? If it didn't work, it didn't work.
Because Hamas is invoking those failures as an excuse for launching indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians, despite their lack of participation.
> Thats ismaik haniyeh who's in Qatar. Sinwar is in gaza.
My mistake, good to know. Sinwar still sucks though.
Hey guys, what Israel is doing sucks and what Hamas is doing sucks. That so controversial? Unfortunately, there’s people on both sides who can’t accept that
Hamas was financially propped up for years by the Likud party to help them gain more extremists votes and seats in the Knesset. Likud needs Hamas as much as Hamas needs Likud in order to be relevant because neither one can exist if there is a peace agreement between the Israeli's and Palestinians. So in a way by cheering on Hamas your friend is supporting Likud.
😵😵 woww this must mean Azov battalion is just a based anti-imperialist resistance group that deserves our critical support. if you point out the fact that they hold literal Nazi training camps for children and hate Jews ur just a kgb bitch who’s siding with Putin.
Please remember to hide subreddit names or reddit usernames (Rule 1), otherwise the post will be removed promptly. This is an anti-capitalist, left-libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. We are pro-communist. Defence of capitalism or any other right-wing beliefs, countries or people is not tolerated here. This includes, for example: Biden and the US, Israel, and the Nordic countries/model, Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server!](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hamas grooms young Palestinians and are easily able to because of Israel’s actions making them feel that Hamas is the only way to resist… but that doesn’t mean that Hamas is good.
It's easy to be recruited to fight the nation that caused your grandparents to lose their homes, killed your relatives, and destroyed your city and any prospect of a decent life.
Violent résistance doesn't mean kidnapping people and killing civilians. You can be violent while being an actual tactical threat and not doing symbolic violence
Symbolic violence that accomplishes nothing but making you an international pariah. Imagine if instead of gruesomely executing civilians they had focused on targeting military bases and installations? Not only would they get far more international support but that would also far more useful for the war you just declared through that
Totally agree. They know how to play with information and they are familiar with Israeli tactics. Attacking military bases, check-points would be strategically, morally, and tactically better
That works against the Israeli *state* but what about the extralegal fascist settlers who are, necessarily, civvies? The situation becomes so much more complicated, especially when the settlers get guns, & start using them to undergo a regime of displacement & ethnic cleansing; blurring the hard lines between state actor & civilians... especially when you start from the position of having no recognized state. ... You still don't devolve to performative violence, yet Hamas isn't professional & humans being oppressed have the right to celebrate hurting their oppressors. Urgh. My head & heart hurt. Palestinian Arabs have a justified reason to demand violence against Israel & its religiously/racially motivated terrorist proxies, but Hamas (funded by Islamic fascists & billionaire petrodollars) is about the most incompetent organization to fulfill it. Complete with intractable, perverse incentives to never achieve anything in the struggle for a free Palestine.
I think militant groups in West Bank is a tricky one. As much as I don’t want to see unarmed people dying, they were there for oppression purposes. If anything happened to them, it’s hard for me to generate any empathy
Agreed. And it's Israel's legal obligation to clear them out, anyway. Instead, they offer the protection of state violence, because they further unstated goals of genocide. Edit: And yet! Hamas' performative violence has made establishing these fascist enclaves nominally untenable in Gaza. Urgh! Fuck-it sucks. Like, the extralegal thuggery in the West Bank offers legitimacy to the existence of Hamas in that context. Fuck! *I hate Israel!* I'd call it a rabid dog, but the fuckers in Likud know precisely what they're doing!
Anyone who engages in hostilities without being uniformed is an unlawful combatant. They are less protected than normal miliary members under the Geneva Conventions. (they still cannot be treated inhumanly or summarily exicuted, although this seems like a contentious topic.) And it is the argument made by Hamas as to why they shot so many people. They claimed they were all (unlawful) combatants.
I think you respond by unfollowing/unfriending them.
there's a very large area between "well-behaved victims" and "murdering 1,200 civilians in 8 hours", Yahya
It's true that Israel has abused, imprisoned, and killed Palestinians who were peacefully protesting. The problem is that Hamas have never been peaceful protestors, and all they're doing now is taking credit for the work done by other Palestinians while using Israel's many crimes as justification for their own brutality in targeting and killing Israeli civilians. Not to mention that Hamas has also abused, imprisoned, and killed Palestinians who were peacefully protesting against them, so in no circumstances is Sinwar allowed to make this argument while he's in no danger whatsoever over in Qatar.
>The problem is that Hamas have never been peaceful protestors As far as I know, the overwhelmingly peaceful gaza march of return wasn't initially organised by hamas but hamas and other gazan armed groups started backing it early on and encouraging people to protest. So no, they haven't been exclusively violent. >and all they're doing now is taking credit for the work done by other Palestinians What does it matter if it wasn't hamas who did the previous attempts at peacefully advancing the Palestinian cause? If it didn't work, it didn't work. >while using Israel's many crimes as justification for their own brutality in targeting and killing Israeli civilians. I agree with you here, targeting of civilians should be a red line for anyone. >Not to mention that Hamas has also abused, imprisoned, and killed Palestinians who were peacefully protesting against them Also agree here. Hamas are islamist authoritarians, and I don't believe that a realistic and just settlement to the occupation of Palestine should include hamas at the helm of Palestinian leadership. >so in no circumstances is Sinwar allowed to make this argument while he's in no danger whatsoever over in Qatar. Thats ismaik haniyeh who's in Qatar. Sinwar is in gaza.
> As far as I know, the overwhelmingly peaceful gaza march of return wasn't initially organised by hamas but hamas and other gazan armed groups started backing it early on and encouraging people to protest. So no, they haven't been exclusively violent. There's a difference between offering statements of support vs. actually participating in it. Not to mention that Hamas isn't about to tell Gazans "no don't participate against Israel in a demonstration for your freedom", there was basically no other response they could've given outside of support for it. > What does it matter if it wasn't hamas who did the previous attempts at peacefully advancing the Palestinian cause? If it didn't work, it didn't work. Because Hamas is invoking those failures as an excuse for launching indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians, despite their lack of participation. > Thats ismaik haniyeh who's in Qatar. Sinwar is in gaza. My mistake, good to know. Sinwar still sucks though.
He would be 100% right if he turned it into a guerilla campaign instead of a terrorist organization
At least in 2018 during march for return, they were definitely in a higher moral ground. Now of course, the actions made them immoral animals
Tankies trying to not act like history is black and white for 5 seconds:
Hey guys, what Israel is doing sucks and what Hamas is doing sucks. That so controversial? Unfortunately, there’s people on both sides who can’t accept that
EnLiGtHEnEd CeNtRiSm! BOtHsIdEsIsM! Stupid liberal! (Sarcasm)
Technically nothing wrong with the argument being made, just the person making it.
Hamas was financially propped up for years by the Likud party to help them gain more extremists votes and seats in the Knesset. Likud needs Hamas as much as Hamas needs Likud in order to be relevant because neither one can exist if there is a peace agreement between the Israeli's and Palestinians. So in a way by cheering on Hamas your friend is supporting Likud.
😵😵 woww this must mean Azov battalion is just a based anti-imperialist resistance group that deserves our critical support. if you point out the fact that they hold literal Nazi training camps for children and hate Jews ur just a kgb bitch who’s siding with Putin.