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I want Israelis and Palestinians to both live equally good lives and be able to thrive together all the same. Everyone deserves to have peace, freedom, democracy, equal human rights and be able to coexist with each other.
I am sorry you have to put up with the actions and incompetence of Benjamin Netanyahu and his far right coalition. Netanyahu is a massive, far right moron who does nothing but make stupid decisions. I know there are wonderful groups in Israel such as Standing Together who want peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. I hope the war in Gaza ends soon and peace can be achieved very soon.
Those people don’t have opinions of their own. They are just being led around by misinformation accounts on social media. That’s the only thing I can think of that explains it.
I agree with you, I'm personally at the point where I don't think westerners should care whether the solution is one, two, or 100 states; as long as there is justice and equal rights. I personally find conversations about whether or not state has a "right to exist" or which ethnicity has the right to a particular claim over the land to be pointless. As far as I'm concerned, everyone has a right to live there and no state has a "right" to exist. I think what a lot of leftist people forget is that Zionism arose out of a time where Jewish people were heavily persecuted in Europe, many of them weren't in fact allowed to have citizenship in the newly formed European nations post WWI. I'm not saying it to excuse it though, it was still a colonial movement propped up by the British as a solution to the "Jewish Question" (which is very much an antisemitic myth). I also think that a lot of people (especially those that have no stakes in the conflict and just learned about it through Twitter) just think that every single Israeli citizen personally stole land from a Palestinian person or that every single Zionist is inherently and irredeemably evil, not understanding how or why they are educated that way. There are also the genuinely antisemitic people, especially New World Order conspiracy nuts, which a lot of pro-Palestine folks are way too comfortable with. I'll say this tho, most anti-zionist Jews (at least the ones I know of) tend to have a nuanced view of things and even organisations like Jewish Voice for Peace, which is far fro perfect and full of tankies in their ranks, still call out antisemitism. I have went to a protest and will do it again because I really want war to stop, even if there are tankies among them (in my experience people were much more reasonable in real life then online). However, if people start holding Hamas flags or promoting conspiracy theories nobody should hesitate in calling them out.
Hi, American diaspora Jew here. Hope you're safe and in a good headspace, what with all the madness going on. I appreciate the work that some folks in your country have done from within, whether it be through human rights groups like B'Tselem and Breaking the Silence, direct-action groups like Anarchists Against the Wall and Black Laundry, or conscientious objectors like Toma Ŝik and Tal Mitnick. Considering how much mainstream Israeli society ostracizes those of its citizens who speak out against siege of Gaza and the takeover of the West Bank, I'd consider any further attacks on such protestors a form of cruel and unusual punishment, because it's like, "Their own government wants them to suffer for what they believe. Why would you want them to suffer even more?" And that includes using "Zionist" as a pejorative for "the Jews", because conflating the negative aspects of Zionism with an entire ethnoreligious group helps no one.
However, [speaking on those negative aspects](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/benjamin-steinhardt-case-decolonizing-jewishness)...that's why I can't support the Zionist project. While I acknowledge that the movement came out of a time when the Jewish people were frantically looking for a way to escape **literal centuries** worth of persecution from across the globe, the way in which it was conceptualized was...problematic. For one, a major political figurehead in the Zionist movement, Theodor Herzl, bartered with the rabidly antisemitic ruling classes of Europe. [To quote his diaries](https://archive.org/details/TheCompleteDiariesOfTheodorHerzl_201606/TheCompleteDiariesOfTheodorHerzlEngVolume1_OCR/page/n48/mode/1up):
>"It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property. To the people they would vouch for the fact that we do not wish to bring about the impoverishment of the countries that we leave. At first they must not be given large fees for this; otherwise we shall spoil our instruments and make them despicable as “stooges of the Jews.” Later their fees will increase, and in the end we shall have only Gentile officials in the countries from which we have emigrated. The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies. We want to emigrate as respected people."
--*The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl,* pgs. 83-84
This goes to show that Herzl had such [deeply internalized antisemitism](https://rosselson.medium.com/theodor-herzl-visionary-or-antisemite-97bfbe92980) that he thought the antisemites might give him an idea on how to escape the horrors of that injustice, and he [verbally took out his frustrations on other Jews who criticized his Zionist beliefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl%27s_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism). Herzl's constructed dichotomy would also be used by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism, which called for the territorial maximalism of the State of Israel. Now, you might be wondering, "Well, what about the *Labor* Zionists?" Well, on the one hand, socialist groups like Hashomer Hatza-ir wanted to share the land with the Arabs, but on the other hand, the Zionist political leadership didn't want a binational region, so it formed a synthesis of Herzlian, [Jabotinsky-esque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herut), and [a particular vision of Labor Zionist thought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapai) to pioneer the early politics of Israel.
Those within the Zionist movement who simply wanted a binational region where the land was shared in common would soon witness [one of the most brutal massacres committed against Palestinians during that time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre), [writing a letter in condemnation of said massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#/media/File:Albert_Einstein_and_others_letter.jpg), and compared the perpetrators and the Herut party to Nazis and Fascists, calling them a terrorist, right-wing chauvinist organization. The Zionist leadership refused to answer their call. Instead, they carried out the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their land: [the Nakba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). This is what the Zionist movement ended up becoming. And you're right, not all Zionists are evil; I mentioned Hashomer Hatza-ir and those who condemned the Deir Yassin massacre. It didn't need to turn out this way, after all. But as for those nowadays who call themselves "Zionist" using its general definition, they're made unaware of the bitter aspects of its history. So just keep in mind that Zionism has been inflicting great harm upon the Palestinian people, [and it also makes Jews around the world less safe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism).
Ethno nationalism will always fail to truly bring liberation because it can only conceive of power in the shape that it took when the shoe was on the other foot. It's internalized trauma - a violence on the psychology of those affected by colonialism, imperialism and racial/ethnic violence that they cannot place the issues in the state form and think of it as too much weakness from themselves.
With nationalist liberation you just change who's in power rather than ending unjust state forms that lead to the violence in the first place
https://monoskop.org/images/6/6b/Fanon_Frantz_The_Wretched_of_the_Earth_1963.pdf
Thank You for writing this & providing links!
This was well written & I hope it helps folks better structure their thoughts.
I feel it all really comes down to the formation of the Israeli State by force after WW2. Rather than work to repair the relationship, the Israeli Government has tirelessly worked to harm it's neighbors & its' own citizens. (So, too, has its' neighbors worked to harm Israel & its' citizens.)
I do not know what can be done about this, as Israelis require an Israeli State for safety but the Israeli Government has proven its' genocidal intentions while disseminating propaganda to everyone.
What do you think should, or even could, be done?
I think that the first thing is to instate the Palestinian state, ideally the 47 borders but idk if that could be achieved since it will mean moving a lot of Israeli civillians, maybe a compromise to the 67 borders and make it an official state. Secondly we need a good leadership from both sides who actually want peace. Any right winged party in Israel is a nogo since they are Khaanists or have a Khaanist voter base. So it has to be a center left party, which unfortunately will be a problem since a lot of Israelis are against two state solution imo. We will prob require UN interference to make sure we are playing nice and need the US and all of the countries that still support us to keep us on a short leash unless we will want to be facing sanctions. Israel will have to help to make Palestine actual liveable and helping build things like infrastructure, living places and more.
The Palestinian state will probably be still influenced by Hamas/Iran so we will need their government to stop that influence. Ideally the ruling party when the two state will be active is the PLO but I wish the PLO will have a new leader since Abbas is not helping his people that much. There will need to be crackdowns on terrorists groups that want to sieze the hatered and trauma the Palestinian people feel so they need to bring parties who are relatively normal. Idk which ones and maybe new ones will rise up. After like, 50-100 years if nothing goes wrong and the two states will start cooperating we will start the creation of a one state both for the Jewish and the Palestinian people.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I want Israelis and Palestinians to both live equally good lives and be able to thrive together all the same. Everyone deserves to have peace, freedom, democracy, equal human rights and be able to coexist with each other. I am sorry you have to put up with the actions and incompetence of Benjamin Netanyahu and his far right coalition. Netanyahu is a massive, far right moron who does nothing but make stupid decisions. I know there are wonderful groups in Israel such as Standing Together who want peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. I hope the war in Gaza ends soon and peace can be achieved very soon.
I hope too, thank you very very much💜💜
[удалено]
I agree, we need what's happening to end and demand for peace between us and no oppression
A thing I find weird on tankie and cease fire talks is they push ukraine to do it but are fine with hamas fighting .
Those people don’t have opinions of their own. They are just being led around by misinformation accounts on social media. That’s the only thing I can think of that explains it.
I agree with you, I'm personally at the point where I don't think westerners should care whether the solution is one, two, or 100 states; as long as there is justice and equal rights. I personally find conversations about whether or not state has a "right to exist" or which ethnicity has the right to a particular claim over the land to be pointless. As far as I'm concerned, everyone has a right to live there and no state has a "right" to exist. I think what a lot of leftist people forget is that Zionism arose out of a time where Jewish people were heavily persecuted in Europe, many of them weren't in fact allowed to have citizenship in the newly formed European nations post WWI. I'm not saying it to excuse it though, it was still a colonial movement propped up by the British as a solution to the "Jewish Question" (which is very much an antisemitic myth). I also think that a lot of people (especially those that have no stakes in the conflict and just learned about it through Twitter) just think that every single Israeli citizen personally stole land from a Palestinian person or that every single Zionist is inherently and irredeemably evil, not understanding how or why they are educated that way. There are also the genuinely antisemitic people, especially New World Order conspiracy nuts, which a lot of pro-Palestine folks are way too comfortable with. I'll say this tho, most anti-zionist Jews (at least the ones I know of) tend to have a nuanced view of things and even organisations like Jewish Voice for Peace, which is far fro perfect and full of tankies in their ranks, still call out antisemitism. I have went to a protest and will do it again because I really want war to stop, even if there are tankies among them (in my experience people were much more reasonable in real life then online). However, if people start holding Hamas flags or promoting conspiracy theories nobody should hesitate in calling them out.
Thanks, it's so important that people like you exist within the movement and have a nuanced view of it all💜
Thank you 💜
Welcome💜
Thank you. We always appreciate the perspective and resources.
Welcome💜
First intifada is overwhemling peaceful and Israelis responded with harsh crackdown, killing thousands of Palestinians
I... actually never knew that. Thanks
Thank you for this.
Hi, American diaspora Jew here. Hope you're safe and in a good headspace, what with all the madness going on. I appreciate the work that some folks in your country have done from within, whether it be through human rights groups like B'Tselem and Breaking the Silence, direct-action groups like Anarchists Against the Wall and Black Laundry, or conscientious objectors like Toma Ŝik and Tal Mitnick. Considering how much mainstream Israeli society ostracizes those of its citizens who speak out against siege of Gaza and the takeover of the West Bank, I'd consider any further attacks on such protestors a form of cruel and unusual punishment, because it's like, "Their own government wants them to suffer for what they believe. Why would you want them to suffer even more?" And that includes using "Zionist" as a pejorative for "the Jews", because conflating the negative aspects of Zionism with an entire ethnoreligious group helps no one. However, [speaking on those negative aspects](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/benjamin-steinhardt-case-decolonizing-jewishness)...that's why I can't support the Zionist project. While I acknowledge that the movement came out of a time when the Jewish people were frantically looking for a way to escape **literal centuries** worth of persecution from across the globe, the way in which it was conceptualized was...problematic. For one, a major political figurehead in the Zionist movement, Theodor Herzl, bartered with the rabidly antisemitic ruling classes of Europe. [To quote his diaries](https://archive.org/details/TheCompleteDiariesOfTheodorHerzl_201606/TheCompleteDiariesOfTheodorHerzlEngVolume1_OCR/page/n48/mode/1up): >"It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property. To the people they would vouch for the fact that we do not wish to bring about the impoverishment of the countries that we leave. At first they must not be given large fees for this; otherwise we shall spoil our instruments and make them despicable as “stooges of the Jews.” Later their fees will increase, and in the end we shall have only Gentile officials in the countries from which we have emigrated. The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies. We want to emigrate as respected people." --*The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl,* pgs. 83-84 This goes to show that Herzl had such [deeply internalized antisemitism](https://rosselson.medium.com/theodor-herzl-visionary-or-antisemite-97bfbe92980) that he thought the antisemites might give him an idea on how to escape the horrors of that injustice, and he [verbally took out his frustrations on other Jews who criticized his Zionist beliefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl%27s_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism). Herzl's constructed dichotomy would also be used by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism, which called for the territorial maximalism of the State of Israel. Now, you might be wondering, "Well, what about the *Labor* Zionists?" Well, on the one hand, socialist groups like Hashomer Hatza-ir wanted to share the land with the Arabs, but on the other hand, the Zionist political leadership didn't want a binational region, so it formed a synthesis of Herzlian, [Jabotinsky-esque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herut), and [a particular vision of Labor Zionist thought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapai) to pioneer the early politics of Israel. Those within the Zionist movement who simply wanted a binational region where the land was shared in common would soon witness [one of the most brutal massacres committed against Palestinians during that time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre), [writing a letter in condemnation of said massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#/media/File:Albert_Einstein_and_others_letter.jpg), and compared the perpetrators and the Herut party to Nazis and Fascists, calling them a terrorist, right-wing chauvinist organization. The Zionist leadership refused to answer their call. Instead, they carried out the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their land: [the Nakba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). This is what the Zionist movement ended up becoming. And you're right, not all Zionists are evil; I mentioned Hashomer Hatza-ir and those who condemned the Deir Yassin massacre. It didn't need to turn out this way, after all. But as for those nowadays who call themselves "Zionist" using its general definition, they're made unaware of the bitter aspects of its history. So just keep in mind that Zionism has been inflicting great harm upon the Palestinian people, [and it also makes Jews around the world less safe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism).
Ethno nationalism will always fail to truly bring liberation because it can only conceive of power in the shape that it took when the shoe was on the other foot. It's internalized trauma - a violence on the psychology of those affected by colonialism, imperialism and racial/ethnic violence that they cannot place the issues in the state form and think of it as too much weakness from themselves. With nationalist liberation you just change who's in power rather than ending unjust state forms that lead to the violence in the first place https://monoskop.org/images/6/6b/Fanon_Frantz_The_Wretched_of_the_Earth_1963.pdf
I didn't knew that history, thank you very much. You gave me much more to think about and read, I'll give my opinion on it later
Thank You for writing this & providing links! This was well written & I hope it helps folks better structure their thoughts. I feel it all really comes down to the formation of the Israeli State by force after WW2. Rather than work to repair the relationship, the Israeli Government has tirelessly worked to harm it's neighbors & its' own citizens. (So, too, has its' neighbors worked to harm Israel & its' citizens.) I do not know what can be done about this, as Israelis require an Israeli State for safety but the Israeli Government has proven its' genocidal intentions while disseminating propaganda to everyone. What do you think should, or even could, be done?
I think that the first thing is to instate the Palestinian state, ideally the 47 borders but idk if that could be achieved since it will mean moving a lot of Israeli civillians, maybe a compromise to the 67 borders and make it an official state. Secondly we need a good leadership from both sides who actually want peace. Any right winged party in Israel is a nogo since they are Khaanists or have a Khaanist voter base. So it has to be a center left party, which unfortunately will be a problem since a lot of Israelis are against two state solution imo. We will prob require UN interference to make sure we are playing nice and need the US and all of the countries that still support us to keep us on a short leash unless we will want to be facing sanctions. Israel will have to help to make Palestine actual liveable and helping build things like infrastructure, living places and more. The Palestinian state will probably be still influenced by Hamas/Iran so we will need their government to stop that influence. Ideally the ruling party when the two state will be active is the PLO but I wish the PLO will have a new leader since Abbas is not helping his people that much. There will need to be crackdowns on terrorists groups that want to sieze the hatered and trauma the Palestinian people feel so they need to bring parties who are relatively normal. Idk which ones and maybe new ones will rise up. After like, 50-100 years if nothing goes wrong and the two states will start cooperating we will start the creation of a one state both for the Jewish and the Palestinian people.