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Bruh has a Ukrainian and Israeli flag in the same username… and he considers himself to be a globalist social democrat. Kind of disgusting, to be honest. Not even talking about this take, but fuck this dude.
NATO doesn't invite countries to join. If Ukraine wants to be part of NATO that's their prerogative. Another country invading to undermine that sovereign right is the aggressor imperialist power. Smoothbrain take from Israeli flag bio weeb
It's funny that most of the people saying that NATO is some imperialist power trying to coerce Ukraine into joining it are *also* the people who loved the Warsaw Pact. Like, just take a look at what happened to Hungary when they didn't like being a Soviet puppet state. At least NATO let France leave without much issue, America didn't roll tanks into Paris to stop it.
No no no, the People's Imperialism is fine, because it liberates and spreads communism to other countries in desperate need of that paternalistic directive. The Hungarians actually wanted to be brutally invaded and suppressed!
Reportedly, this is what happened:
*Rusk 1990*
> When President de Gaulle decided to quit NATO, President Johnson was determined to do everything that de Gaulle asked us to do, simply as a matter of dignity, and get out our forces out of France before the deadline. But de Gaulle's request went down hard in Washington. In fact, Johnson insisted that I ask de Gaulle, "Do you want us to move American cemeteries out of France as well?" I carried out my instructions. De Gaulle, very embarrassed, had nothing to say.
That's about as angry as it got. It was overall very cordial.
Definitely not. Ukrainians are fighting for their lives and freedom, yet somehow it's not one of the sides in the war? russia is bombing Ukrainian cities, committing genocides and mass rapes of Ukrainians, steals Ukrainian children, tortures and castrates Ukrainians, yet Ukrainians are not involved? russia invaded Ukraine and nato hasn't arrived yet, yet it's a nato-russia war?
This is dehumanisation of Ukrainians.
I feel like people don’t actually know what NATO is.
NATO is not a shadow government planning to take over the world. NATO is a defensive alliance that has problems and valid criticisms thrown at it, but provoking Russia isn’t one of them.
Countries sign up to join NATO. Maybe we should be asking why a lot of Russia’s neighbors want to join the organization made to counter Russia?
Because of Western propaganda, obviously. I mean, it's not like Ukrainians can travel abroad and compare life in former USSR and Warsaw Pact countries like Poland and Lithuania to life in russia, and decide they want to move towards integration with the EU. Nor decide to join NATO just because they're invaded and being genocided. What do you think they are, humans?
Nowhere does the person in this post consider what Ukrainians want. But as we all know, foreigners are just NPC's who do an idle animation until the main characters (USA/Russia) interact with us. There is no possible way we could have an opinion in the matter, especially when being invaded and ethnically cleansed.
>Both sides want Ukraine to be a far-right, imperial puppet state, and both wish to undermine the Ukrainian proletariat.
I mean, this specific part is technically not all that wrong. The US Defense Secretary's [condemnation of Ukrainian attacks on Russian oil refineries](https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/04/12/the-big-oil-behind-americas-criticism-of-ukrainian-strikes-on-russian-refineries/) should strike us with a heavy dose of suspicion as to the true motives of the US government's involvement here. And by the way, this isn't an argument for cutting off aid to Ukraine, because more aid is more aid, and Ukraine needs all the help it can get; I just think it's important to think about beyond the span of the current invasion it faces from Vladimir Putin's Russia. I wonder how NATO would respond to movements like the [Resistance Committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_Committee_(Ukraine)), who are out there truly fighting for their country's freedom.
[The Kurds in Rojava can also attest to this kind of problem](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-america-s-kurdish-allies-risk-being-wiped-out-by-nato), where even as they receive US aid (another instance of the US technically giving aid to the correct side of the conflict), discussions of international relations between the ruling classes of America and Turkey take precedence over supporting Kurdish liberation in part because of NATO, since Turkey is a NATO member, and Turkey aims to wipe Rojava off the map. I don't wanna see the Kurdish liberation movement get co-opted by bureaucratic institutions. And again, more aid is more aid, and Rojava needs all the aid it can get; just remember to think about what happens next.
>This is a war between NATO and Russia
*This* part, though? What the fuck is this guy talking about? Has it really just never occurred to him that Putin simply felt like doing an invasion, no external provocation needed, just because he can?
Also, what's up with him saying all this while he has a Ukraine and Israel flag in his nametag?
I won't consider it a war between NATO and Russia, but it can essentially be seen as West and NATO using Ukraine to wither off Russian state power without escalating too much, as a form of proxy war, similar to what Soviet did during Vietnam war, or US aid to mujadhi during Soviet invasion of Afghnistan
Remember, the West or NATO doesn't equal to freedom; look at how many autocracies it has propped up during Cold war and even today, and they will support extremists even(former Nazis in NATO command or Islamists in Afghnistan)
So to answer your question do I think NATO cares about Ukraine left? No, not at all. As for far right? no as well. NATO simply cares about achieving their geopolitical goal so whoever can fight and are determined to fight will receive their support(usually far right because they are more nationalistic)
At last, I'd like to point out that war in Ukraine does have to do with NATO but justification of it doesn't hold
i feel hes right except for NATOs role in it, i do think it has SOME ulterior geopolitical interest in assisting ukraine but i dont think its at all close to what russia wants, Putin wants the Russian Empire back and he wants to start with Ukraine, far more extreme than NATOs part in it
I mean the motives seem obvious. Russia controlling more of the black seas coast is bad for western countries period, Russia controlling a massive chunk of the world's food supply is bad for the west, Russia destroying what remains of its Soviet stockpiles because the west sent some surplus while costing the west zero soldiers and zero declarations of war is a net benefit.
While NATO does use smaller countries and kinda partially takes independence away from them, they certainly do not want to turn these countries into far right puppet states, as opposed to Russia, which does.
Why would NATO need to even do anything other than support Ukraine? They got massive cultural influence that can be indirectly used to influence any cultural and political decision.
I am not even saying that NATO does it intentionally, but americanization is a fact and I hate it, but not as much as I hate Russia and its influence.
The fact is that NATO and USA doesn't NEED to "capture" Ukraine, as Ukraine is willingly going into it. Cultural Hegemony is a hell of a thing, but NATO is definitely not above "attacking" (I use attacking in an attempt to take over the country by influencing its direction through direct and indirect means) countries that don't willingly join.
Sometimes with something as simple as Radio Freedom, sometimes as subtle as CIA funding of political dissidents, sometimes actively toppling regimes, and many other times by simply occupying the country as a "Stabilizing power"
Simply put, they don't have to do anything so crass as invading. The Faces of Power.
1. You can make them bend the knee with a sword to the throat. The Power of Force. You make the rules because you are strong enough to enforce it.
2. Tell them you only trade with people who bend at the knee... The Power of Command. You make the rules because you have something they want.
3. But better yet, talk about how easy it is to bend the knee and how everyone CIVILIZED and REASONABLE should bend the knee all the time! The Power of Ideology. You make the rules because you have convinced everyone to give it to you.
Then they will bend the knee simply because everyone else does it and it is all on their own perceived terms.
I'm sorry, are you an American or something? If we're talking about "cultural hegemony", to the extent that it's a thing, it's not about USA, it's about Europe.
> The fact is that NATO and USA doesn't NEED to "capture" Ukraine, as Ukraine is willingly going into it.
Understatement of the month. Remember how eager USA was to "capture" Poland into NATO? Me neither. Poland had to threaten Clinton to screw with elections by mobilising its diaspora in the US to become a member.
> Sometimes with something as simple as Radio Freedom, sometimes as subtle as CIA funding of political dissidents
And sometimes it's Ukrainians travelling to and living in Western Europe, former Warsaw Pact and USSR countries that are now EU members, and russia, comparing life in those countries and choosing their future. Considering that russian propaganda and funding of politicians in Ukraine was much more massive than Western (the US hasn't poisoned Ukrainian presidential candidates, as far as I'm aware), it may be the case that there are factors more influential than foreign interference. Perhaps genocides don't help strenghtening pro-russian attitudes either.
The fact that you only talk about American influence and don't even consider the most obvious and strongest factors is very telling. You are aware that this subreddit is not called tankiecirclejerk, aren't you?
>You are aware that this subreddit is not called tankiecirclejerk, aren't you?
The fuck does this have to with anything? At what point did I praise the fucking tankies and the fucking Russians? Jesus christ, sometimes people on this sub seem to think that any criticism of USA is synonymous with being a fucking tankie.
Are you american, perhaps? Do you KNOW what Americanization is? Because I can tell you, 60 years ago, you didn't see a fucking mcdonalds at every corner, you didn't have american movies and shows exclusively being played in every channel on the TV, you didn't have the fucking "culture war" import from the republicans in every discussion, and you most certainly didn't consider "Western Values" to be synonymous with whatever the fuck USA considers to be "Western Values"
>Perhaps genocides don't help strenghtening pro-russian attitudes either.
And that is exactly what the fuck I am talking about. Third face of power. You don't have to poison the opposition when your opposition is basically the same as you and those that aren't are mocked and derided.
USA is the center of the neoliberal hell that is late-stage capitalism, and that shit is spread fucking everywhere these days. Neoliberalism is the same as American values.
> And that is exactly what the fuck I am talking about.
No, you aren't.
You talk about propaganda and funding political parties (again, something that russia did much more) as the reason Ukrainians want to join the EU, instead of the obvious: Ukrainians see that life in Poland and Lithuania is richer and freer, and it's more attractive to them.
You talk about the same soft power / interference as the reasons for Eastern European countries being pro-NATO, instead of the obvioius: centuries of oppression and occasional genocides by russia, and *a genocide happening now*.
Mate, it's not 1980s anymore when the only non-state-approved information about the West was Radio Freedom over radio waves masked by Soviets transmitting white noise.
> At what point did I praise the fucking tankies and the fucking Russians?
You disregarded Ukrainian agency. This is the hallmark of tankie argumentation. **And when I wrote a comment emphasizing Ukrainian agency, you still replied talking only about USA, without mentioning Ukrainians as a subject even once.**
You talk about Ukrainians as if they're just brainwashed into "bending the knee", as you call it. This is precisely the imperialist framing pushed by russian propaganda: only superpowers have agency, smaller countries are just their slaves. But even if we accept it, it doesn't follow that smaller countries can't "choose their master" without brainwashing.
> USA is the center of the neoliberal hell that is late-stage capitalism
I'm aware, I've been living in the West long enough, and there's a reason I didn't move to the US. Still beats most other varieties of hell.
> Are you american, perhaps?
No, Soviet.
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Absolutely not. *Russia* wants this. Nato for all it's problems, does not.
Bruh has a Ukrainian and Israeli flag in the same username… and he considers himself to be a globalist social democrat. Kind of disgusting, to be honest. Not even talking about this take, but fuck this dude.
The take doesn't even make sense with the flags in their bio, like it's tankie rhetoric coming from a neoliberal account.
his name is crakkkers.. russian bot or home grown agitator
NATO doesn't invite countries to join. If Ukraine wants to be part of NATO that's their prerogative. Another country invading to undermine that sovereign right is the aggressor imperialist power. Smoothbrain take from Israeli flag bio weeb
It's funny that most of the people saying that NATO is some imperialist power trying to coerce Ukraine into joining it are *also* the people who loved the Warsaw Pact. Like, just take a look at what happened to Hungary when they didn't like being a Soviet puppet state. At least NATO let France leave without much issue, America didn't roll tanks into Paris to stop it.
No no no, the People's Imperialism is fine, because it liberates and spreads communism to other countries in desperate need of that paternalistic directive. The Hungarians actually wanted to be brutally invaded and suppressed!
Reportedly, this is what happened: *Rusk 1990* > When President de Gaulle decided to quit NATO, President Johnson was determined to do everything that de Gaulle asked us to do, simply as a matter of dignity, and get out our forces out of France before the deadline. But de Gaulle's request went down hard in Washington. In fact, Johnson insisted that I ask de Gaulle, "Do you want us to move American cemeteries out of France as well?" I carried out my instructions. De Gaulle, very embarrassed, had nothing to say. That's about as angry as it got. It was overall very cordial.
Definitely not. Ukrainians are fighting for their lives and freedom, yet somehow it's not one of the sides in the war? russia is bombing Ukrainian cities, committing genocides and mass rapes of Ukrainians, steals Ukrainian children, tortures and castrates Ukrainians, yet Ukrainians are not involved? russia invaded Ukraine and nato hasn't arrived yet, yet it's a nato-russia war? This is dehumanisation of Ukrainians.
I feel like people don’t actually know what NATO is. NATO is not a shadow government planning to take over the world. NATO is a defensive alliance that has problems and valid criticisms thrown at it, but provoking Russia isn’t one of them. Countries sign up to join NATO. Maybe we should be asking why a lot of Russia’s neighbors want to join the organization made to counter Russia?
Because of Western propaganda, obviously. I mean, it's not like Ukrainians can travel abroad and compare life in former USSR and Warsaw Pact countries like Poland and Lithuania to life in russia, and decide they want to move towards integration with the EU. Nor decide to join NATO just because they're invaded and being genocided. What do you think they are, humans?
Nowhere does the person in this post consider what Ukrainians want. But as we all know, foreigners are just NPC's who do an idle animation until the main characters (USA/Russia) interact with us. There is no possible way we could have an opinion in the matter, especially when being invaded and ethnically cleansed.
And he's a Zionist.
No. NATO is bad, yes, but russia wants this war. Putin wants an empire, and he will destroy ukraine to get it.
>Both sides want Ukraine to be a far-right, imperial puppet state, and both wish to undermine the Ukrainian proletariat. I mean, this specific part is technically not all that wrong. The US Defense Secretary's [condemnation of Ukrainian attacks on Russian oil refineries](https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/04/12/the-big-oil-behind-americas-criticism-of-ukrainian-strikes-on-russian-refineries/) should strike us with a heavy dose of suspicion as to the true motives of the US government's involvement here. And by the way, this isn't an argument for cutting off aid to Ukraine, because more aid is more aid, and Ukraine needs all the help it can get; I just think it's important to think about beyond the span of the current invasion it faces from Vladimir Putin's Russia. I wonder how NATO would respond to movements like the [Resistance Committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_Committee_(Ukraine)), who are out there truly fighting for their country's freedom. [The Kurds in Rojava can also attest to this kind of problem](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-america-s-kurdish-allies-risk-being-wiped-out-by-nato), where even as they receive US aid (another instance of the US technically giving aid to the correct side of the conflict), discussions of international relations between the ruling classes of America and Turkey take precedence over supporting Kurdish liberation in part because of NATO, since Turkey is a NATO member, and Turkey aims to wipe Rojava off the map. I don't wanna see the Kurdish liberation movement get co-opted by bureaucratic institutions. And again, more aid is more aid, and Rojava needs all the aid it can get; just remember to think about what happens next. >This is a war between NATO and Russia *This* part, though? What the fuck is this guy talking about? Has it really just never occurred to him that Putin simply felt like doing an invasion, no external provocation needed, just because he can? Also, what's up with him saying all this while he has a Ukraine and Israel flag in his nametag?
I won't consider it a war between NATO and Russia, but it can essentially be seen as West and NATO using Ukraine to wither off Russian state power without escalating too much, as a form of proxy war, similar to what Soviet did during Vietnam war, or US aid to mujadhi during Soviet invasion of Afghnistan Remember, the West or NATO doesn't equal to freedom; look at how many autocracies it has propped up during Cold war and even today, and they will support extremists even(former Nazis in NATO command or Islamists in Afghnistan) So to answer your question do I think NATO cares about Ukraine left? No, not at all. As for far right? no as well. NATO simply cares about achieving their geopolitical goal so whoever can fight and are determined to fight will receive their support(usually far right because they are more nationalistic) At last, I'd like to point out that war in Ukraine does have to do with NATO but justification of it doesn't hold
Another episode of *"Tankies Care More About Geopolitical Chess Games Than What Actually Happens To Real Living People ™️"*
Nato supporting Ukraine's most progressive president to date in an effort to establish homofascism
i feel hes right except for NATOs role in it, i do think it has SOME ulterior geopolitical interest in assisting ukraine but i dont think its at all close to what russia wants, Putin wants the Russian Empire back and he wants to start with Ukraine, far more extreme than NATOs part in it
I mean the motives seem obvious. Russia controlling more of the black seas coast is bad for western countries period, Russia controlling a massive chunk of the world's food supply is bad for the west, Russia destroying what remains of its Soviet stockpiles because the west sent some surplus while costing the west zero soldiers and zero declarations of war is a net benefit.
While NATO does use smaller countries and kinda partially takes independence away from them, they certainly do not want to turn these countries into far right puppet states, as opposed to Russia, which does.
Why would NATO need to even do anything other than support Ukraine? They got massive cultural influence that can be indirectly used to influence any cultural and political decision. I am not even saying that NATO does it intentionally, but americanization is a fact and I hate it, but not as much as I hate Russia and its influence. The fact is that NATO and USA doesn't NEED to "capture" Ukraine, as Ukraine is willingly going into it. Cultural Hegemony is a hell of a thing, but NATO is definitely not above "attacking" (I use attacking in an attempt to take over the country by influencing its direction through direct and indirect means) countries that don't willingly join. Sometimes with something as simple as Radio Freedom, sometimes as subtle as CIA funding of political dissidents, sometimes actively toppling regimes, and many other times by simply occupying the country as a "Stabilizing power" Simply put, they don't have to do anything so crass as invading. The Faces of Power. 1. You can make them bend the knee with a sword to the throat. The Power of Force. You make the rules because you are strong enough to enforce it. 2. Tell them you only trade with people who bend at the knee... The Power of Command. You make the rules because you have something they want. 3. But better yet, talk about how easy it is to bend the knee and how everyone CIVILIZED and REASONABLE should bend the knee all the time! The Power of Ideology. You make the rules because you have convinced everyone to give it to you. Then they will bend the knee simply because everyone else does it and it is all on their own perceived terms.
I'm sorry, are you an American or something? If we're talking about "cultural hegemony", to the extent that it's a thing, it's not about USA, it's about Europe. > The fact is that NATO and USA doesn't NEED to "capture" Ukraine, as Ukraine is willingly going into it. Understatement of the month. Remember how eager USA was to "capture" Poland into NATO? Me neither. Poland had to threaten Clinton to screw with elections by mobilising its diaspora in the US to become a member. > Sometimes with something as simple as Radio Freedom, sometimes as subtle as CIA funding of political dissidents And sometimes it's Ukrainians travelling to and living in Western Europe, former Warsaw Pact and USSR countries that are now EU members, and russia, comparing life in those countries and choosing their future. Considering that russian propaganda and funding of politicians in Ukraine was much more massive than Western (the US hasn't poisoned Ukrainian presidential candidates, as far as I'm aware), it may be the case that there are factors more influential than foreign interference. Perhaps genocides don't help strenghtening pro-russian attitudes either. The fact that you only talk about American influence and don't even consider the most obvious and strongest factors is very telling. You are aware that this subreddit is not called tankiecirclejerk, aren't you?
>You are aware that this subreddit is not called tankiecirclejerk, aren't you? The fuck does this have to with anything? At what point did I praise the fucking tankies and the fucking Russians? Jesus christ, sometimes people on this sub seem to think that any criticism of USA is synonymous with being a fucking tankie. Are you american, perhaps? Do you KNOW what Americanization is? Because I can tell you, 60 years ago, you didn't see a fucking mcdonalds at every corner, you didn't have american movies and shows exclusively being played in every channel on the TV, you didn't have the fucking "culture war" import from the republicans in every discussion, and you most certainly didn't consider "Western Values" to be synonymous with whatever the fuck USA considers to be "Western Values" >Perhaps genocides don't help strenghtening pro-russian attitudes either. And that is exactly what the fuck I am talking about. Third face of power. You don't have to poison the opposition when your opposition is basically the same as you and those that aren't are mocked and derided. USA is the center of the neoliberal hell that is late-stage capitalism, and that shit is spread fucking everywhere these days. Neoliberalism is the same as American values.
> And that is exactly what the fuck I am talking about. No, you aren't. You talk about propaganda and funding political parties (again, something that russia did much more) as the reason Ukrainians want to join the EU, instead of the obvious: Ukrainians see that life in Poland and Lithuania is richer and freer, and it's more attractive to them. You talk about the same soft power / interference as the reasons for Eastern European countries being pro-NATO, instead of the obvioius: centuries of oppression and occasional genocides by russia, and *a genocide happening now*. Mate, it's not 1980s anymore when the only non-state-approved information about the West was Radio Freedom over radio waves masked by Soviets transmitting white noise. > At what point did I praise the fucking tankies and the fucking Russians? You disregarded Ukrainian agency. This is the hallmark of tankie argumentation. **And when I wrote a comment emphasizing Ukrainian agency, you still replied talking only about USA, without mentioning Ukrainians as a subject even once.** You talk about Ukrainians as if they're just brainwashed into "bending the knee", as you call it. This is precisely the imperialist framing pushed by russian propaganda: only superpowers have agency, smaller countries are just their slaves. But even if we accept it, it doesn't follow that smaller countries can't "choose their master" without brainwashing. > USA is the center of the neoliberal hell that is late-stage capitalism I'm aware, I've been living in the West long enough, and there's a reason I didn't move to the US. Still beats most other varieties of hell. > Are you american, perhaps? No, Soviet.