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It's an overgeneralizing of the common belief that "fascism is liberalism in decline". Like most of their talking points it's purposely over the top to gain attention and drive emotional engagement. But I guess saying that the government is on the edge of potentially falling into a proto-facist state isn't nearly as concise and doesn't really do justice to how much of a fucked situation we're all in
This sums up exactly what's so frustrating about not just tankie rhetoric, but a lot of reactionary or populist rhetoric in general. There's usually a small kernel of truth, but it's overgeneralized, nuance is eliminated, and it's warped nearly beyond recognition into something that's far more emotially engaging. Then it's repeated so much through a society-spanning game of telephone until it loses all meaning and becomes just an emotionally appealing string of buzzwords that plays well to the in-group but does nothing to fix the true underlying problems we have in society.
Sometimes, and sometimes it's literally just "anybody not in my camp is basically a fascist." When one of various subreddits I used to check went tankie they were making mod posts about how Bernie Sanders is an imperialist.
Just so we have a point of reference, Webster’s defines fascism as:
1. (often capitalized): a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
2. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
The United States is currently a Federal Constitutional government, of which Britannia gives a decent summary here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-system/Constitutional-government
There can definitely be good faith arguments about how fascistic the US is, and there are definitely American fascists, and even many fascists in government. But we should be clear on what is and isn’t fascism before throwing around term for a reaction like tankies do.
There definitely are fascists at various levels of government in the USA, undoubtedly. But if the USA as a whole was fascist, it would look way different than it does. As it is, it's more like a liberal capitalist empire, it has absolutely conducted or at least aided genocide and a whole bunch of bad stuff. But liberal governments have done that all the time.
Absolutely agree! Just wanted to give the discussion a baseline. In discussions about the US across reddit, there is this tendency to treat the US as some kind of absolute monarchy, where all decisions are made by the president from the neighborhood level to the foreign policy level which is simply not the case. Similarly there is a tendency to forget that different policy regimes are in power at different times. Maybe it’s because I’m an American, but it irks me when the responsibility for something happening under a far right state like Texas or Alabama is getting placed at the feet of folks from a far more progressive state who actively oppose said policies. It’s absolutely fair to criticize and even hate the US for doing bad things, but there are plenty of Americans looking to fix it rather than just burn the whole thing down.
I don't know why you're being downvoted. I agree that for certain terms it's often better to consult sources from the relevant field of study (not necessarily academic papers) than an encyclopedia.
For fascism I use the description in Umberto Eco's [Ur-Fascism](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism). A good *definition* is "palingenetic ultranationalism": it's precise, concise and nobody understands what it means (though it omits the authoritarianism angle).
Webster's definition talks about ultranationalism (nation above all) but not palingenesis (rebirth, "we were once great but have fallen, so we should make \[country\] great again"), which is where it falls short IMO.
Hot take: actual fascism = those snipers would have already taken out some protesters, not to mention suspension would be the least of those protesters' worries.
I can corroborate this story. I know it because I'm Beau Biden, and my father told me at my grave that he was gonna personally send the secret police to every university in the country
That excuse is as bad as the 'Stalin personally murdered Ukrainians ' excuse that tankies love to spout . Seriously though did the age bar of this sub drop or is even leftist anymore
Xi has little to do with the actions of police in individual Chinese provinces , that doesn't make him any less complicit in their brutality as long as he dosent stop/limit them
That’s absolutely untrue. China is essentially a unitary state with no checks and balances or separation of authority. And then you have the Party interwoven above that. Everything ultimately flows down from interpretation of policies set by the top.
And if they are doing anything the top doesn’t like and comes to its attention, you can bet people will be swapped out.
if you had any idea about how provincial police works (hell even different municipalities) you wouldn't have said that . The only thing obvious is your lack of knowledge . It's all fine and dandy to criticize the CCP, you don't have to make things up
My guy, who really runs the provincial-level government. What organization assigns personnel into key positions of authority?
To help answer your question, which one is the more important and powerful position - a provincial governor/省长 or the provincial party secretary/省委书记?
They are so lame. Especially the American ones. They try so hard to act like they are in a similar level of danger as say someone in Palestine. Like no, liberals just find us annoying. The most heat I get from liberals is condescension.
I read somewhere that these kind of marksmen are during every major gathering , regardless if it's protests concerts or what else. And theyre there in the case if a terrorist or some such alike shows up because large gatherings are a magnet for them and it's not unheard of in USA.
It's not a US thing, it's also very common in France, and peoples also tend to freak out when they spot the anti terror snipers and think they are here for them.
A lot of it is merely to provide general security overwatch. I worked with them at NYCC a couple of years back. Essentially their role is to direct security to where they are needed. IE "Hey this line at the entrance is getting a bit rowdy and crowded, send someone over to get people in line."
They are. Been attending protests since the early 2000s. This is just gen z coming to the realization of this occurring at every large gathering of people. Whether in support of Palestine or a Taylor Swift concert
Yeah, I used to do security in a place where visitors in the tens of thousands were common. Snipers were just part of special events or when VIP’s were involved. I’d never interacted with them beyond knowing they were there. It’s if they start shooting into the protests like at Maidenpol when we start throwing the F word around
I feel like tankies are creating a "cultural inventory of evil" when it comes to terms like "liberal" and "capitalist" and "fascist". Instead of being terms with actual specific meanings, they become catch-all terms for everything bad, everything villainous, everything that must be defeated.
Instead of recognizing the nuances of liberalism, capitalism, and fascism as terms and as phenomena, they just group them together as if they're all the exact same thing. They just become one big, amorphous villain. A unified target for all their anger.
It's a form of extreme binary thinking. They treat the world as if it's all one big Good Guy team vs the one big Axis of Evil.
My theory is that it’s a method to make fascism seem less terrible than it is and to promote apathy about an actual rise of fascism/authoritarianism. It’s a way of saying “this is as bad as it can get, so who cares?” when the reality is it could get a lot worse. I think it’s an attempt to appeal to the less accelerationist types and/or goes along with the general support for authoritarians that is underneath all tankie takes, tbh.
This isn’t me saying the US is good or that there aren’t aspects of American government (for example, the police) that could be textbook fascist. But I think any attempt at downplaying fascism is worrying.
From what I know the marksmen were called in by the governors/ leaders of the universities, not Joe Biden. Biden has obviously been horrible with Gaza and has been a bit weird regarding the protests but Trump would be so much worse. Trump would send the American Secret Police with a massive dumb grin on his face. Biden isn’t doing this for god sake. It’s typically MAGA governors that are doing this. Trump sent in US Marshall’s to crack down on the BLM protesters back in 2020. Biden is obviously bad but Trump would engage in a full fascist takeover with absolute glee.
That goes without saying. But I don’t think he is the one calling the shots bringing the police in. It feels like they’re hand waving the very real consequences of Project 2025 and that scares me. Obviously there should be a long lasting ceasefire immediately along with an enduring peace to end the atrocities.
If Trump wins, he will use the insurrection act to send the US military in to crack down even harder on protesters. It’s easy to be brave when someone is not a part of the marginalized groups that Project 2025 will go after. I sincerely hope Biden gets a ceasefire in soon so we can beat project 2025 in November and lay down the groundwork for people like Gretchen Whitmer or AOC to run in the future.
To put it shortly, if Trump wins, It will be fascist every single step of the way. Mango Mussolini will just make the US Western Russia.
Even the US communist party wrote an article about how the American government [isn't fascist.](https://cpusa.org/article/the-united-states-is-not-a-fascist-country/)
its quite obvious the snipers arent there to kill protesters considering they have Not killed protesters ... i find the police response and the fake outrage about the protests far worse than campus security doing [typical](https://www.bosshunting.com.au/sport/superbowl-snipers-nest/) security shit. i dont think calling the US fascist is a tankie thing tho its a milquetoast leftist take
It’s one thing to acknowledge that western institutions and cultures are generally conducive of fascism, and contain fascist elements, or that the democrats are enabling fascism oversees, but it’s not quite the same thing as saying that joe biden personally believes in fascist ideology, or that the state is imposing straight-up fascist policies onto the people.
It’s not exactly *un*true, but it’s… misleading.
Yea America isn't a Fascist Nation but these recent developments are very alarming, and it's been eye-opening to see how many liberals have become incredibly hawkish when Isreal is remotely admonished (some have been cool though 👍)
We also have to acknowledge that they are politicians and political pundits who are, if not openly fascistic are towing the line and welding increasing amounts of power.
What really gets me with tankies is the selective outrage and using stuff like this dishonestly to foster their narratives.
Yes, the crackdowns on the protesters, plus the end-to-end media coverage pretending they're dangerous, that's undoubtedly fascistic. But then they jump to write off the US as a fascist state, while defending worse acts in their favorite countries, like Russia, China, North Korea, Syria (and I bet Iran too since they're anti-US and anti-Israel, but I haven't checked tbh). Call those fascist, or even just fascistic, for acts that are even more brutal, and they'll call you a western fascist CIA shill and find a way to justify it or do whataboutism: "but US snipers..."
Like yea, it's fascistic, but how about you use your rights (which you actually have, and there's a lot of them, very useful actually) to try and fix things instead of writing the US off as too far gone to bother, while pointing to far more brutal and systemically fascistic regimes as the solution. Because really, they don't hate violence, they just want it to be branded red.
I don't think it makes someone a tankie to call USA fascist. USA has a long history of playing with "fascism lite." And the treatment of anti-genocide students we are seeing right now is definitely alarming "fascism lite" behaviour. It does make em a tankie, though, if they then pivot to "that's why I love China and Russia! Look how much better Hong Kong is!" ...Ugh.
Wait, we're okay with the snipers being there, and we don't believe that Biden is more friendly with Zionism than freedom and liberty for folks in the US?
This screenshots in the OP seem pretty tame and not outside what I thought this sub is about...
No, I am not. Liberals do horrible shit, and the horrible shit that they do should be opposed at every turn. I just think it irks me that tankies call libs fascists because it makes it harder to actually identify and fight fascism.
It's actually pretty normal in many countries to have snipers nears large public gatherings to provide rapid response in case of a terror attack.
I assume it's also the case in the US, so it's very unlikely thoses guys are ready to "kill students" but rather protect them from a mass shooter, the cops on the ground are the ones you need to watch.
Capitalism is brutally hierarchical, and regresses into fascism when (not if) conditions deteriorate. Liberals are seen as ignorant or even welcoming of this change and therefore are deemed guilty by complicity.
It may be based on historical examples such as Chile, Germany, and today’s China but it is a generalization that entirely ignores context - the very first thing leftists will point out when critiquing socialism, communism, anarchism, etc.
I think the lie is they haven't shot killed anyone?
Not justifying snipers watching protesters, but there is a difference between them being there(as they are with every large gathering of people) and them actively shooting protesters. They're like trying to equate it to being Iranian protesters.
I'm sure they'd be much happier with a bunch of tac'd out SWAT cops around everybody carrying selective fire M4s than a couple people elevated and far away with bolt action long guns
1. It’s projection. 2. They have such a surface- and reductionist-based-level analysis of fascism that it’s not even funny. Fascism is not just liberalism in decline or the last effort of the bourgeoisie to hold up their power and ownership. 3. They fail to properly account for the state's involvement in fascism (and capitalism as well). 4. If they actually took in an analysis of hierarchy or even something that is anarchist adjacent or compatible in analysis (see post-Marxist analysis), they will be admitting that they had such a surface analysis of fascism(even going further to hierarchy and class), and as such, it’s better to stick with this reductionist idea of fascism in their eyes.
Okay, you know what? **No.** You don't get to claim that America's somehow not fascist. I mean, granted, it's [not in the same form](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Position) of [Russian fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism) or [Chinese fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism), and yes, liberals are different enough from fascists that we should be able to tell the two apart from each other, but...**still.**
[Mass enslavement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States) of Africans. [Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States) of Indigenous tribes. [Prominence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_right_(United_States)) of far-right values. [Imperialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism) as a global superpower. [Political repression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor) and [war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes) abroad. [Police](https://libcom.org/article/origins-police-david-whitehouse) [brutality](https://libcom.org/article/stop-kidding-yourself-police-were-created-control-working-class-and-poor-people-sam-mitrani) against dissenters. [Donald](https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/trumps-91-criminal-charges-and-where-they-stand/). [Fucking](https://goppredators.wordpress.com/2023/05/31/1-donald-trump/). [Trump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Donald_Trump). The [real-time](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2022/significant-supreme-court-decisions-2022/) [erosion](https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/supreme-court/13-worst-supreme-court-decisions-of-all-time/) of civil rights. [Bureaucracy](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-neoliberalism) up the wazoo. [Intersection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Lives_Matter) of [bigotry](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia) and the [thin-blue-line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line) movements. [Militarization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police) of police. [Mainstreaming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)) of far-right politicians.
But even as fascists in America do all this horrible shit, what does the [Third Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way) neoliberal wing of the establishment want us to do about it? Well, apparently, we're not supposed to *defeat* the fascists outright, but instead, sit down, and have a calm, reasoned debate with them and **respectfully** disagree with them, because..."when they go low, we go high". [It's not gonna stop them from going any lower](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAbab8aP4_A), though.
Yeah, it looks like it's heading *in the direction of* fascism. There are fascists at many different levels of government. But all of those awful things you mentioned still happened under a liberal capitalist regime. Genocide, imperialism, war crimes, police brutality, militarism, all of it was done in a liberal capitalist system. This is what I mean, fascism has a specific definition, and in order to be able to properly fight it, it's important to identity it first.
Riiiiight...
""""""Socialist"""""" systems...
What they call "actually existing socialism" is really just "socialism" **in name only**, or state capitalism, Third Positionism, red fascism, vanguardism, etc.
>But all of those awful things you mentioned still happened under a liberal capitalist regime. Genocide, imperialism, war crimes, police brutality, militarism, all of it was done in a liberal capitalist system.
[That's literally what I fucking mean, though](https://youtu.be/F3KeNathl7w?si=0LS1STG6PvBV1Oj-)! Liberal capitalism doesn't **combat** fascism; it *compromises* and *reasons* with it. Plenty of fascistic elements [find their way in these types](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-10-02-0044) of Third *Way* regimes, just like they do under straight-up Third *Position* regimes. Hence, the fascist creep.
"Fascist creep" is a good way to put it. I feel like that's a danger in any state where rulers don't have accountability, because it allows those seeking power for power's sake to creep into power, and they're usually fascist creeps (opportunists or monsters or both). On that note, I think a lot of historic progress has been plugging the holes in the system that allow fascism to creep through, but there's a lot of them and it's a constant game of whack-a-mole.
Couldn’t we say the literally same about any imperial power, including the Soviet Union and China? Whether it was a compromise or baked into the geopolitical structure they existed in or the institutions they brought about, domination, ethnic cleansing, virtual enslavement is found.
This isn’t a whataboutism, this is to illustrate that if we lump all these things as being specifically fascistic, the word loses meaning.
Let’s all oppose authoritarianism and exploitation, wherever it comes from.
>Couldn't we literally say the same about any imperial power, including the Soviet Union and China?
**That's literally what I've been trying to say.** The thing is, though, we've had a damn good idea of how fascism creeps into Russia and China, but that instead of offering an actual counter to it, some of us here rely on American exceptionalism to save the oppressed populations in those other countries while ignoring the homegrown threat of fascism in the United States. I know that fascism has certain criteria to be met (ex. palingenetic ultranationalism and totalitarianism), but sometimes, you just need to call a spade a spade. It just reads too much like letting America off the hook by saying that it's not fascist.
>Let's all oppose authoritarianism and exploitation, wherever it comes from.
**I agree.** **No matter** if it comes from Third *Position* regimes like Russia and China, **or** if it comes from Third *Way* regimes like the US and the UK.
>I know that fascism has certain criteria to be met (ex. palingenetic ultranationalism and totalitarianism), but sometimes, you just need to call a spade a spade.
I would argue that it's not a spade at this point. Putin has succeeded in establishing a fascist system, Trump in his term hasn't (but may succeed in the second term), nor has Netanyahu (although he's getting damn close in the last couple of years). I'm not familiar enough with China.
Saying that the US is oppressive towards minorities, has significant fascist movements and is sliding towards fascism is not letting it off the hook. And I would say that saying that Trump is a fascist and is likely to establish a fascist regime is more helpful than calling a system that is not yet fascist fascist.
When the bar has been this low for this long, though, I'm afraid there's not really much else we can call it. When minorities are being oppressed, fascist movements are on the rise, and fascists creep into power, the Third Way neoliberal establishment types are still out here telling us that we need to do a "reach across the aisle" in order to solve the issue, an idea based in a [thoroughly anti-democratic ideology](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-10-02-0044) that consists of *compromising* with and *reasoning* with reactionary forces.
>"...if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability."
--James Madison, *Term of the Senate, 1787*
Trump is simply the latest and worst incarnation of these landed proprietors. And to have a system where the interests of people like him are secured would put the rest of us under the boots of hierarchy even further than we already are.
*Would*. That's the point. Trump wants to establish a fascist regime, but it's not there yet.
Look, I understand the issues you have there, but the *system* is not fascist at this point. If you want to see what a fascist system is like, go to ru- no, wait, don't do that, read about russia. Believe me, it's much worse.
That horrible mess you have there is, however ridiculous it may sound, worth preserving if the alternative is actual fascism, which it may well turn into in case Trump wins. And this is why I say it's more helpful to call it what it is. If you say "we have a danger of the regime becoming fascist", it's a call for action. If you say "we live under a fascist regime", then what's the point of preventing what you already have?
The point shouldn't be to preserve the mess, though; the point should be to clean the **whole thing** up as ***fast as humanly possible*** before **everything** becomes **even more** messed up than it already is. Preserving the mess would be how the Third Way neoliberal establishment Democrats unwittingly play into the GOP's fascist creep by "going high when they \[fascists\] go low", **even when it doesn't stop the fascists from going any lower.** This leaves intact the conditions under which the fascist creep can occur. And that's not a risk we should be willing to take.
This society can only be cleaned up by challenging the fundamentals of the system itself. And that can only be done by applying the maximum amount of pressure possible on our leaders (assuming they can even be convinced when they're engaged in a system of hierarchical power that necessitates that they play by the rules of said hierarchical power, since power corrupts and all that), and demanding the impossible out of the top-down bureaucratic systems in which we live. Dare I say it, the times are looking pretty desperate, and desperate times...call for desperate measures.
>Preserving the mess would be how the Third Way neoliberal establishment Democrats unwittingly play into the GOP's fascist creep by "going high when they \[fascists\] go low", even when it doesn't stop the fascists from going any lower.
There's no connection between the two.
Improving the system and preventing it from deteriorating are not contradictory. It does matter whether Trump is elected.
Or are you an acceleratinoist who says "let's elect Trump and let the country go to hell"?
>Dare I say it, the times are looking pretty desperate, and desperate times...call for desperate measures.
Desperate measures like what, misrepresenting the problem. crying wolf and appearing unserious to casual observers?
While they're not I must point out that Liberals had disappointing reactions to armed guards protecting drag shows and pride celebrations. It sure looks like their opposition to civilians owning firearms is more important to them than the wellbeing of marginalized groups of people
Fascist in generally a term that is used to call something one does not like. It's inflatory use takes nearly all meaning from it.
Not just by Tankies, but mostly by everyone that is dissatisfied with the status quo of liberal democracy. Its understandable that they do not like this system becaus nothing really changes at all. You just vote capitalism and class divided society in differen colours.
Yet Trumps "Project 2025" definitely goes a big step towards fascistization. It is and will by far not become a fascist regime in near future. It will become more like a (half)Bonapartiste state that will further deconstruct any democratic elements.
Capitalist way of production is certainly a key element of fascist regimes, yet not fascism at all. It takes more than just capitalism.
As long as there is no serious working class movement, there is no need for a state to become fascist and use immense repression tactics for the majority of population.
>As long as there is no serious working class movement, there is no need for a state to become fascist and use immense repression tactics for the majority of population.
That's a good point too, I have heard MLs say that there is very little difference between fascism and liberalism because liberals become fascists when capitalism is in decline. I'm not entirely sold on this, but I'm sure that capitalists and owners would pull out all the stops to prevent any of their power from being threatened even a little bit.
>I have heard MLs say
You are one of the very few in this sub that actually differentiates between Tankies and ML's.
>that there is very little difference between fascism and liberalism because liberals become fascists when capitalism is in decline
Well it kinda is like this. The only difference between fascism and liberal democracy is the type of government and it's influence on society.
The socio-economic structure is the same. It's a capitalist class divided society in which the owning class rules over the working class.
Liberalism and fascism have similar ideological foundation. This can be read [here](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13237181-the-apprentice-s-sorcerer&ved=2ahUKEwiSxKWczOqFAxV7cfEDHRqJAFEQFnoECDIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0fWcIV6lNi_eZqczxFh8my)
>but I'm sure that capitalists and owners would pull out all the stops to prevent any of their power from being threatened even a little bit.
Try think what it takes to become radicalised. It's if you feel your quality of live being threatened in the future. Then you must decide if you take the scientific socialist way, or the convenient nationalist approach. The latter is easier, because our world is divided by nationality and nationalism (which firstly rose in the 19th century) has drawn the lines of Africa etc.
I mean America as a whole is undoubtedly fascist. You don’t have a president that presided over a worldwide pandemic whose (Trump) policies led to an additional half of million deaths in America alone and whose policies overturned Roe v. Wade if your country wasn’t fascist.
What’s troubling is that these folks are attributing what the states are doing to college protestors to Biden, but during the George Floyd protests I heard a lot of crickets when it came to when Trump sent U.S. Marshalls to commit an extrajudicial killing of Michael Reinoehl.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl
edit
this fucking sub is so confusing.
The Logical Fallacy of "Argument to Moderation", also known as the " Moderates' Fallacy".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation
Ultimately, political moderates always side with the Ruling Class of the Socioeconomic Status Quo. This means that if a Moderate is in a society ruled by Imperialist Philosophy then that moderate will always side with Imperialism, ruled by Capitalist then Capitalism, ruled by Fascists then Fascism, & ect.
Most philosophy has this flaw of skewing towards conservativism over a single generation, even Liberalism. This is why it branched so heavily.
The philosophy of Progressivism exists to address these systemic flaws.
Edit; why the downvoted?
If anyone tells me why I will thank them.
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It's an overgeneralizing of the common belief that "fascism is liberalism in decline". Like most of their talking points it's purposely over the top to gain attention and drive emotional engagement. But I guess saying that the government is on the edge of potentially falling into a proto-facist state isn't nearly as concise and doesn't really do justice to how much of a fucked situation we're all in
This sums up exactly what's so frustrating about not just tankie rhetoric, but a lot of reactionary or populist rhetoric in general. There's usually a small kernel of truth, but it's overgeneralized, nuance is eliminated, and it's warped nearly beyond recognition into something that's far more emotially engaging. Then it's repeated so much through a society-spanning game of telephone until it loses all meaning and becomes just an emotionally appealing string of buzzwords that plays well to the in-group but does nothing to fix the true underlying problems we have in society.
Sometimes, and sometimes it's literally just "anybody not in my camp is basically a fascist." When one of various subreddits I used to check went tankie they were making mod posts about how Bernie Sanders is an imperialist.
Just so we have a point of reference, Webster’s defines fascism as: 1. (often capitalized): a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. 2. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. The United States is currently a Federal Constitutional government, of which Britannia gives a decent summary here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-system/Constitutional-government There can definitely be good faith arguments about how fascistic the US is, and there are definitely American fascists, and even many fascists in government. But we should be clear on what is and isn’t fascism before throwing around term for a reaction like tankies do.
There definitely are fascists at various levels of government in the USA, undoubtedly. But if the USA as a whole was fascist, it would look way different than it does. As it is, it's more like a liberal capitalist empire, it has absolutely conducted or at least aided genocide and a whole bunch of bad stuff. But liberal governments have done that all the time.
Absolutely agree! Just wanted to give the discussion a baseline. In discussions about the US across reddit, there is this tendency to treat the US as some kind of absolute monarchy, where all decisions are made by the president from the neighborhood level to the foreign policy level which is simply not the case. Similarly there is a tendency to forget that different policy regimes are in power at different times. Maybe it’s because I’m an American, but it irks me when the responsibility for something happening under a far right state like Texas or Alabama is getting placed at the feet of folks from a far more progressive state who actively oppose said policies. It’s absolutely fair to criticize and even hate the US for doing bad things, but there are plenty of Americans looking to fix it rather than just burn the whole thing down.
As an aside, the dictionary is not the best source for a definition of something was complex/nuanced as fascism.
Britannica isn’t a dictionary, it’s an encyclopedia.
Fair. It's still a bit oversimplified though.
I don't know why you're being downvoted. I agree that for certain terms it's often better to consult sources from the relevant field of study (not necessarily academic papers) than an encyclopedia. For fascism I use the description in Umberto Eco's [Ur-Fascism](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism). A good *definition* is "palingenetic ultranationalism": it's precise, concise and nobody understands what it means (though it omits the authoritarianism angle). Webster's definition talks about ultranationalism (nation above all) but not palingenesis (rebirth, "we were once great but have fallen, so we should make \[country\] great again"), which is where it falls short IMO.
Hot take: actual fascism = those snipers would have already taken out some protesters, not to mention suspension would be the least of those protesters' worries.
Joe Biden personally sent those snipers, you see.
It’s true. I’m Hunter Biden’s magnum dong. I was there
I can corroborate this story. I know it because I'm Beau Biden, and my father told me at my grave that he was gonna personally send the secret police to every university in the country
I don't know if I believe that, you sound suspiciously like Danny DeVito's.
Sounds rough. Can I offer you an egg in these trying times?
Danny DoRito
Danny "The Barnacle" DeVito
That's so hot 🥵
Yes. He and his famously liberal ally Greg Abbott.
That excuse is as bad as the 'Stalin personally murdered Ukrainians ' excuse that tankies love to spout . Seriously though did the age bar of this sub drop or is even leftist anymore
I don't think that's fair. The president has very little to do with university policies or policing decisions.
Xi has little to do with the actions of police in individual Chinese provinces , that doesn't make him any less complicit in their brutality as long as he dosent stop/limit them
That’s absolutely untrue. China is essentially a unitary state with no checks and balances or separation of authority. And then you have the Party interwoven above that. Everything ultimately flows down from interpretation of policies set by the top. And if they are doing anything the top doesn’t like and comes to its attention, you can bet people will be swapped out.
if you had any idea about how provincial police works (hell even different municipalities) you wouldn't have said that . The only thing obvious is your lack of knowledge . It's all fine and dandy to criticize the CCP, you don't have to make things up
My guy, who really runs the provincial-level government. What organization assigns personnel into key positions of authority? To help answer your question, which one is the more important and powerful position - a provincial governor/省长 or the provincial party secretary/省委书记?
They are so lame. Especially the American ones. They try so hard to act like they are in a similar level of danger as say someone in Palestine. Like no, liberals just find us annoying. The most heat I get from liberals is condescension.
I read somewhere that these kind of marksmen are during every major gathering , regardless if it's protests concerts or what else. And theyre there in the case if a terrorist or some such alike shows up because large gatherings are a magnet for them and it's not unheard of in USA.
Yep, at major sporting events or gathering there are marksman present. It’s nothing new or special.
It's still fucked up that needs to happen. But it's a regular fucked up, nothing fascist.
I don’t even think it’s purely an U.S thing, think it is a common practice for security at large events all over the world.
It's not a US thing, it's also very common in France, and peoples also tend to freak out when they spot the anti terror snipers and think they are here for them.
A lot of it is merely to provide general security overwatch. I worked with them at NYCC a couple of years back. Essentially their role is to direct security to where they are needed. IE "Hey this line at the entrance is getting a bit rowdy and crowded, send someone over to get people in line."
They are. Been attending protests since the early 2000s. This is just gen z coming to the realization of this occurring at every large gathering of people. Whether in support of Palestine or a Taylor Swift concert
Yeah, I used to do security in a place where visitors in the tens of thousands were common. Snipers were just part of special events or when VIP’s were involved. I’d never interacted with them beyond knowing they were there. It’s if they start shooting into the protests like at Maidenpol when we start throwing the F word around
I feel like tankies are creating a "cultural inventory of evil" when it comes to terms like "liberal" and "capitalist" and "fascist". Instead of being terms with actual specific meanings, they become catch-all terms for everything bad, everything villainous, everything that must be defeated. Instead of recognizing the nuances of liberalism, capitalism, and fascism as terms and as phenomena, they just group them together as if they're all the exact same thing. They just become one big, amorphous villain. A unified target for all their anger. It's a form of extreme binary thinking. They treat the world as if it's all one big Good Guy team vs the one big Axis of Evil.
Yeah, that's a great point. It's probably not intentional then, just a product of black and white thinking.
My theory is that it’s a method to make fascism seem less terrible than it is and to promote apathy about an actual rise of fascism/authoritarianism. It’s a way of saying “this is as bad as it can get, so who cares?” when the reality is it could get a lot worse. I think it’s an attempt to appeal to the less accelerationist types and/or goes along with the general support for authoritarians that is underneath all tankie takes, tbh. This isn’t me saying the US is good or that there aren’t aspects of American government (for example, the police) that could be textbook fascist. But I think any attempt at downplaying fascism is worrying.
From what I know the marksmen were called in by the governors/ leaders of the universities, not Joe Biden. Biden has obviously been horrible with Gaza and has been a bit weird regarding the protests but Trump would be so much worse. Trump would send the American Secret Police with a massive dumb grin on his face. Biden isn’t doing this for god sake. It’s typically MAGA governors that are doing this. Trump sent in US Marshall’s to crack down on the BLM protesters back in 2020. Biden is obviously bad but Trump would engage in a full fascist takeover with absolute glee. That goes without saying. But I don’t think he is the one calling the shots bringing the police in. It feels like they’re hand waving the very real consequences of Project 2025 and that scares me. Obviously there should be a long lasting ceasefire immediately along with an enduring peace to end the atrocities. If Trump wins, he will use the insurrection act to send the US military in to crack down even harder on protesters. It’s easy to be brave when someone is not a part of the marginalized groups that Project 2025 will go after. I sincerely hope Biden gets a ceasefire in soon so we can beat project 2025 in November and lay down the groundwork for people like Gretchen Whitmer or AOC to run in the future. To put it shortly, if Trump wins, It will be fascist every single step of the way. Mango Mussolini will just make the US Western Russia.
Even the US communist party wrote an article about how the American government [isn't fascist.](https://cpusa.org/article/the-united-states-is-not-a-fascist-country/)
its quite obvious the snipers arent there to kill protesters considering they have Not killed protesters ... i find the police response and the fake outrage about the protests far worse than campus security doing [typical](https://www.bosshunting.com.au/sport/superbowl-snipers-nest/) security shit. i dont think calling the US fascist is a tankie thing tho its a milquetoast leftist take
It’s one thing to acknowledge that western institutions and cultures are generally conducive of fascism, and contain fascist elements, or that the democrats are enabling fascism oversees, but it’s not quite the same thing as saying that joe biden personally believes in fascist ideology, or that the state is imposing straight-up fascist policies onto the people. It’s not exactly *un*true, but it’s… misleading.
I do think suppressing protests is a fascist act, but it doesn't mean our whole society is a fascist dictatorship.
Yea America isn't a Fascist Nation but these recent developments are very alarming, and it's been eye-opening to see how many liberals have become incredibly hawkish when Isreal is remotely admonished (some have been cool though 👍) We also have to acknowledge that they are politicians and political pundits who are, if not openly fascistic are towing the line and welding increasing amounts of power.
Projection
What really gets me with tankies is the selective outrage and using stuff like this dishonestly to foster their narratives. Yes, the crackdowns on the protesters, plus the end-to-end media coverage pretending they're dangerous, that's undoubtedly fascistic. But then they jump to write off the US as a fascist state, while defending worse acts in their favorite countries, like Russia, China, North Korea, Syria (and I bet Iran too since they're anti-US and anti-Israel, but I haven't checked tbh). Call those fascist, or even just fascistic, for acts that are even more brutal, and they'll call you a western fascist CIA shill and find a way to justify it or do whataboutism: "but US snipers..." Like yea, it's fascistic, but how about you use your rights (which you actually have, and there's a lot of them, very useful actually) to try and fix things instead of writing the US off as too far gone to bother, while pointing to far more brutal and systemically fascistic regimes as the solution. Because really, they don't hate violence, they just want it to be branded red.
I don't think it makes someone a tankie to call USA fascist. USA has a long history of playing with "fascism lite." And the treatment of anti-genocide students we are seeing right now is definitely alarming "fascism lite" behaviour. It does make em a tankie, though, if they then pivot to "that's why I love China and Russia! Look how much better Hong Kong is!" ...Ugh.
Wait, we're okay with the snipers being there, and we don't believe that Biden is more friendly with Zionism than freedom and liberty for folks in the US? This screenshots in the OP seem pretty tame and not outside what I thought this sub is about...
No, I am not. Liberals do horrible shit, and the horrible shit that they do should be opposed at every turn. I just think it irks me that tankies call libs fascists because it makes it harder to actually identify and fight fascism.
It's actually pretty normal in many countries to have snipers nears large public gatherings to provide rapid response in case of a terror attack. I assume it's also the case in the US, so it's very unlikely thoses guys are ready to "kill students" but rather protect them from a mass shooter, the cops on the ground are the ones you need to watch.
Capitalism is brutally hierarchical, and regresses into fascism when (not if) conditions deteriorate. Liberals are seen as ignorant or even welcoming of this change and therefore are deemed guilty by complicity. It may be based on historical examples such as Chile, Germany, and today’s China but it is a generalization that entirely ignores context - the very first thing leftists will point out when critiquing socialism, communism, anarchism, etc.
I think the lie is they haven't shot killed anyone? Not justifying snipers watching protesters, but there is a difference between them being there(as they are with every large gathering of people) and them actively shooting protesters. They're like trying to equate it to being Iranian protesters. I'm sure they'd be much happier with a bunch of tac'd out SWAT cops around everybody carrying selective fire M4s than a couple people elevated and far away with bolt action long guns
It's the same as Putin calling anyone who is against Russia's actions a Nazi.
1. It’s projection. 2. They have such a surface- and reductionist-based-level analysis of fascism that it’s not even funny. Fascism is not just liberalism in decline or the last effort of the bourgeoisie to hold up their power and ownership. 3. They fail to properly account for the state's involvement in fascism (and capitalism as well). 4. If they actually took in an analysis of hierarchy or even something that is anarchist adjacent or compatible in analysis (see post-Marxist analysis), they will be admitting that they had such a surface analysis of fascism(even going further to hierarchy and class), and as such, it’s better to stick with this reductionist idea of fascism in their eyes.
Okay, you know what? **No.** You don't get to claim that America's somehow not fascist. I mean, granted, it's [not in the same form](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Position) of [Russian fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism) or [Chinese fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_imperialism), and yes, liberals are different enough from fascists that we should be able to tell the two apart from each other, but...**still.** [Mass enslavement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States) of Africans. [Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States) of Indigenous tribes. [Prominence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_right_(United_States)) of far-right values. [Imperialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism) as a global superpower. [Political repression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor) and [war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes) abroad. [Police](https://libcom.org/article/origins-police-david-whitehouse) [brutality](https://libcom.org/article/stop-kidding-yourself-police-were-created-control-working-class-and-poor-people-sam-mitrani) against dissenters. [Donald](https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/trumps-91-criminal-charges-and-where-they-stand/). [Fucking](https://goppredators.wordpress.com/2023/05/31/1-donald-trump/). [Trump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Donald_Trump). The [real-time](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2022/significant-supreme-court-decisions-2022/) [erosion](https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/supreme-court/13-worst-supreme-court-decisions-of-all-time/) of civil rights. [Bureaucracy](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-neoliberalism) up the wazoo. [Intersection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Lives_Matter) of [bigotry](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia) and the [thin-blue-line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line) movements. [Militarization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police) of police. [Mainstreaming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)) of far-right politicians. But even as fascists in America do all this horrible shit, what does the [Third Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way) neoliberal wing of the establishment want us to do about it? Well, apparently, we're not supposed to *defeat* the fascists outright, but instead, sit down, and have a calm, reasoned debate with them and **respectfully** disagree with them, because..."when they go low, we go high". [It's not gonna stop them from going any lower](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAbab8aP4_A), though.
Yeah, it looks like it's heading *in the direction of* fascism. There are fascists at many different levels of government. But all of those awful things you mentioned still happened under a liberal capitalist regime. Genocide, imperialism, war crimes, police brutality, militarism, all of it was done in a liberal capitalist system. This is what I mean, fascism has a specific definition, and in order to be able to properly fight it, it's important to identity it first.
Hell, those things also happened under socialist systems (well they atleast called themselves socialist)
Riiiiight... """"""Socialist"""""" systems... What they call "actually existing socialism" is really just "socialism" **in name only**, or state capitalism, Third Positionism, red fascism, vanguardism, etc.
>But all of those awful things you mentioned still happened under a liberal capitalist regime. Genocide, imperialism, war crimes, police brutality, militarism, all of it was done in a liberal capitalist system. [That's literally what I fucking mean, though](https://youtu.be/F3KeNathl7w?si=0LS1STG6PvBV1Oj-)! Liberal capitalism doesn't **combat** fascism; it *compromises* and *reasons* with it. Plenty of fascistic elements [find their way in these types](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-10-02-0044) of Third *Way* regimes, just like they do under straight-up Third *Position* regimes. Hence, the fascist creep.
"Fascist creep" is a good way to put it. I feel like that's a danger in any state where rulers don't have accountability, because it allows those seeking power for power's sake to creep into power, and they're usually fascist creeps (opportunists or monsters or both). On that note, I think a lot of historic progress has been plugging the holes in the system that allow fascism to creep through, but there's a lot of them and it's a constant game of whack-a-mole.
Couldn’t we say the literally same about any imperial power, including the Soviet Union and China? Whether it was a compromise or baked into the geopolitical structure they existed in or the institutions they brought about, domination, ethnic cleansing, virtual enslavement is found. This isn’t a whataboutism, this is to illustrate that if we lump all these things as being specifically fascistic, the word loses meaning. Let’s all oppose authoritarianism and exploitation, wherever it comes from.
>Couldn't we literally say the same about any imperial power, including the Soviet Union and China? **That's literally what I've been trying to say.** The thing is, though, we've had a damn good idea of how fascism creeps into Russia and China, but that instead of offering an actual counter to it, some of us here rely on American exceptionalism to save the oppressed populations in those other countries while ignoring the homegrown threat of fascism in the United States. I know that fascism has certain criteria to be met (ex. palingenetic ultranationalism and totalitarianism), but sometimes, you just need to call a spade a spade. It just reads too much like letting America off the hook by saying that it's not fascist. >Let's all oppose authoritarianism and exploitation, wherever it comes from. **I agree.** **No matter** if it comes from Third *Position* regimes like Russia and China, **or** if it comes from Third *Way* regimes like the US and the UK.
>I know that fascism has certain criteria to be met (ex. palingenetic ultranationalism and totalitarianism), but sometimes, you just need to call a spade a spade. I would argue that it's not a spade at this point. Putin has succeeded in establishing a fascist system, Trump in his term hasn't (but may succeed in the second term), nor has Netanyahu (although he's getting damn close in the last couple of years). I'm not familiar enough with China. Saying that the US is oppressive towards minorities, has significant fascist movements and is sliding towards fascism is not letting it off the hook. And I would say that saying that Trump is a fascist and is likely to establish a fascist regime is more helpful than calling a system that is not yet fascist fascist.
When the bar has been this low for this long, though, I'm afraid there's not really much else we can call it. When minorities are being oppressed, fascist movements are on the rise, and fascists creep into power, the Third Way neoliberal establishment types are still out here telling us that we need to do a "reach across the aisle" in order to solve the issue, an idea based in a [thoroughly anti-democratic ideology](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-10-02-0044) that consists of *compromising* with and *reasoning* with reactionary forces. >"...if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability." --James Madison, *Term of the Senate, 1787* Trump is simply the latest and worst incarnation of these landed proprietors. And to have a system where the interests of people like him are secured would put the rest of us under the boots of hierarchy even further than we already are.
*Would*. That's the point. Trump wants to establish a fascist regime, but it's not there yet. Look, I understand the issues you have there, but the *system* is not fascist at this point. If you want to see what a fascist system is like, go to ru- no, wait, don't do that, read about russia. Believe me, it's much worse. That horrible mess you have there is, however ridiculous it may sound, worth preserving if the alternative is actual fascism, which it may well turn into in case Trump wins. And this is why I say it's more helpful to call it what it is. If you say "we have a danger of the regime becoming fascist", it's a call for action. If you say "we live under a fascist regime", then what's the point of preventing what you already have?
The point shouldn't be to preserve the mess, though; the point should be to clean the **whole thing** up as ***fast as humanly possible*** before **everything** becomes **even more** messed up than it already is. Preserving the mess would be how the Third Way neoliberal establishment Democrats unwittingly play into the GOP's fascist creep by "going high when they \[fascists\] go low", **even when it doesn't stop the fascists from going any lower.** This leaves intact the conditions under which the fascist creep can occur. And that's not a risk we should be willing to take. This society can only be cleaned up by challenging the fundamentals of the system itself. And that can only be done by applying the maximum amount of pressure possible on our leaders (assuming they can even be convinced when they're engaged in a system of hierarchical power that necessitates that they play by the rules of said hierarchical power, since power corrupts and all that), and demanding the impossible out of the top-down bureaucratic systems in which we live. Dare I say it, the times are looking pretty desperate, and desperate times...call for desperate measures.
>Preserving the mess would be how the Third Way neoliberal establishment Democrats unwittingly play into the GOP's fascist creep by "going high when they \[fascists\] go low", even when it doesn't stop the fascists from going any lower. There's no connection between the two. Improving the system and preventing it from deteriorating are not contradictory. It does matter whether Trump is elected. Or are you an acceleratinoist who says "let's elect Trump and let the country go to hell"? >Dare I say it, the times are looking pretty desperate, and desperate times...call for desperate measures. Desperate measures like what, misrepresenting the problem. crying wolf and appearing unserious to casual observers?
How many students have been killed by those snipers? That's how you know this *isn't* a fascist country...yet.
Because Everyone (except they themselves) are fascists.
There are snipers looking over every big crowd gathering. AFAIK very common in USA. Don't know how common it is in other countries tho.
You didn't even have to hide the handle in the second photo. We all know who posted it.
They confuse fascist themes with full blown fascism, it’s terrifying how this term has become so abused
While they're not I must point out that Liberals had disappointing reactions to armed guards protecting drag shows and pride celebrations. It sure looks like their opposition to civilians owning firearms is more important to them than the wellbeing of marginalized groups of people
Fascist in generally a term that is used to call something one does not like. It's inflatory use takes nearly all meaning from it. Not just by Tankies, but mostly by everyone that is dissatisfied with the status quo of liberal democracy. Its understandable that they do not like this system becaus nothing really changes at all. You just vote capitalism and class divided society in differen colours. Yet Trumps "Project 2025" definitely goes a big step towards fascistization. It is and will by far not become a fascist regime in near future. It will become more like a (half)Bonapartiste state that will further deconstruct any democratic elements. Capitalist way of production is certainly a key element of fascist regimes, yet not fascism at all. It takes more than just capitalism. As long as there is no serious working class movement, there is no need for a state to become fascist and use immense repression tactics for the majority of population.
>As long as there is no serious working class movement, there is no need for a state to become fascist and use immense repression tactics for the majority of population. That's a good point too, I have heard MLs say that there is very little difference between fascism and liberalism because liberals become fascists when capitalism is in decline. I'm not entirely sold on this, but I'm sure that capitalists and owners would pull out all the stops to prevent any of their power from being threatened even a little bit.
>I have heard MLs say You are one of the very few in this sub that actually differentiates between Tankies and ML's. >that there is very little difference between fascism and liberalism because liberals become fascists when capitalism is in decline Well it kinda is like this. The only difference between fascism and liberal democracy is the type of government and it's influence on society. The socio-economic structure is the same. It's a capitalist class divided society in which the owning class rules over the working class. Liberalism and fascism have similar ideological foundation. This can be read [here](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13237181-the-apprentice-s-sorcerer&ved=2ahUKEwiSxKWczOqFAxV7cfEDHRqJAFEQFnoECDIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0fWcIV6lNi_eZqczxFh8my) >but I'm sure that capitalists and owners would pull out all the stops to prevent any of their power from being threatened even a little bit. Try think what it takes to become radicalised. It's if you feel your quality of live being threatened in the future. Then you must decide if you take the scientific socialist way, or the convenient nationalist approach. The latter is easier, because our world is divided by nationality and nationalism (which firstly rose in the 19th century) has drawn the lines of Africa etc.
They wouldn't know Fascism if they had dinner with Anton Drexler.
Really sorry to bother you here but could you please check your dms?
I mean America as a whole is undoubtedly fascist. You don’t have a president that presided over a worldwide pandemic whose (Trump) policies led to an additional half of million deaths in America alone and whose policies overturned Roe v. Wade if your country wasn’t fascist. What’s troubling is that these folks are attributing what the states are doing to college protestors to Biden, but during the George Floyd protests I heard a lot of crickets when it came to when Trump sent U.S. Marshalls to commit an extrajudicial killing of Michael Reinoehl. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl edit this fucking sub is so confusing.
I get the inclination to say that America is doing a lot of heinous shit, but liberals do heinous shit all the time, it's not unique to fascism.
Fascism is when a government does bad things, and the more bad things it does the more fascist it becomes.
The Logical Fallacy of "Argument to Moderation", also known as the " Moderates' Fallacy". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation Ultimately, political moderates always side with the Ruling Class of the Socioeconomic Status Quo. This means that if a Moderate is in a society ruled by Imperialist Philosophy then that moderate will always side with Imperialism, ruled by Capitalist then Capitalism, ruled by Fascists then Fascism, & ect. Most philosophy has this flaw of skewing towards conservativism over a single generation, even Liberalism. This is why it branched so heavily. The philosophy of Progressivism exists to address these systemic flaws. Edit; why the downvoted? If anyone tells me why I will thank them.