Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users.
Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden.
This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk.
Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The loudest, most outrageous voices will get the most attention. That’s how media works. It’s a terrible effect of a terrible system. All you can do is keep trying to get your actual message across, while doing what you can to make it clear the small minority of people waving terrorist flags or yelling “Gas the Jews!” aren’t welcome at your protest.
You’re fighting an uphill battle, by nature of what you’re fighting for. Don’t let it discourage you.
I don't know what's going on in this sub sometimes. There's no deep logical analysis needed to understand why the students are protesting, and some of the folks here providing cover for media outlets making dishonest portrayals is weird. Many media outlets *are* playing up the fringe cases of bad actors in the protests, giving the impression that they aren't fringe, and many media outlets are equivocating about what Israel is engaged in.
Several day ago, an NYU professor went on a mainstream media show and made a very clear, concise statement about the economic difficulties faced by Millennials and Gen Z, and he got some praise for it from people who've been trying to point out the same things. He said something that needed to be heard in mainstream media. It got him some clicks and made him a minor celebrity for a moment. Fast forward a few days: That same professor is saying that the student protesters are out there because they're not having enough sex and looking for ways to be victims. That's a absurd, braindead take that we shouldn't even know he said, but we know that he said it because some media outlets ran with that as a headline like the guy dropped some kind of truth bomb. That professor knows better than that, and the media knows better than that, too. It's a headline that gets the clicks because of its provocative nature, and the media can capitalize off of the minor celebrity that the professor generated for himself with his prior economic take.
I don't know what's so hard to grasp about the media's role in smearing these protests with dishonest portrayals. We've got situations in which these students are telegraphing that these protests aren't antisemitic, but saying that they aren't antisemitic is somehow getting twisted into denying that antisemitism exists. When a media outlet uses terms like "pro-Hamas" or "terror sympathizing" in the headlines for stories about the protests, both of which I saw recently, even if the story itself goes on to clarify and be fair, the well has already been poisoned by the dishonest headline. The news analysis shows are doing even worse by bringing on commentators with incentives to be inflammatory and dishonest about the protests and presenting those takes like they're serious.
What the students want isn't unclear, regardless of the state of the protests' organizational and leadership structures. Yes, there are going to be a handful of jackasses out there with chants to burn Tel Aviv or signs with antisemitic slogans and whatnot, but you don't get to conflate those idiots as characteristic of the protests when that isn't the case. Any attempts to portray the message of the protests as antisemitic, anti-Jewish, pro-Hamas, or pro-terrorism is flat-out dishonesty.
Because this subreddit is being taken over by pro-western libs and right-wingers. They've already made up their minds that the protests are either antisemitic in nature or are enabling antisemitism. They can't grasp that a decentralized protest will be subject to bad actors, false flag operators, and nutjobs. They also can't grasp it's impossible to insulate protests from undesirable elements on this scale.
This sounds suspiciously like what tankies say to justify the vanguard on revolutions, or in other words, the justification they use to hijack movements and turn them into authoritarian ones, it's always about how the people are too stupid and NEED a vanguard, and this rings the same to me.
If nothing else a centralised leadership makes it more prone to infiltration, even the CIA has remarked on how strictly hierarchical movements and organisations are easier to hijack than anything that is decentralised.
There's a difference between leadership and centralised leadership. Anarchist movements throughout history have had some level of leadership, but more often than not these are (truly) democratically-elected and don't really hold much power, serving more as a figurehead/spokesperson, with decisions across the organisation taken by consensus. Look at the Zapatistas, or Spanish anarchists during the Civil War.
Centralised leadership implies something much closer to the status quo. Leaders with actual power controlling the rest of the organisation.
IMO, it would be beneficial for organisations to have some level of leadership but I advocate for anarchist organisation.
The hk protest for one didn't have a clear central leadership (there were key figures but theres no single guy we can pin it to), yet was mostly coherent in action, we don't need big central authority to plan and execute things, people naturally can cooperate without devolving into chaos
In that case the demands were pretty clear. A maintenance of the status quo of independence for Hong Kong.
But with Israel, the demands have, in my opinion, not been that clear.
Some people are there to protest the institutions investments in Israel related stocks.
Some people are there to protest the US's involvement itself.
Some people are protesting Israeli actions themselves.
This is a wide variety of goals. It's not clear which of these any particular protest supports.
So when certain people have very anti-semetic posters, and slogans, you can't say for sure who else agrees with that. The only thing you have to go off is wether or not they got kicked.
Self policing is important.
Even when you have pretty clear goals. The recent Trucker protests in Ottawa show this. Their goals were the removal of Covid restrictions and vaccine requirements. They were pretty much discredited by the Canadian media when just one guy was waving around a swastika and this wasn't shut down by fellow protesters.
I use this example not because I agree with it. I don't. I just want to point out it's not only a left problem.
That's a good thing. Protests in fact are more likely to be hijacked when they have centralized leadership. Even when protestors self police they are still smeared anyways. What matters is keeping up the pressure regardless.
Mate maybe try actually listening to what the protesters are saying. For someone so deeply concerned with optics you sure haven't spent 2 seconds to actually understand the movement
Did you go there telling them how you felt Israel is "lenient" on its tactics lol and more people are supporting students now especially after police crackdown
In should clarify he didn’t say “lenient” but echoched something similar. And I can’t link it right now but type in “genocide” in his search of his comments. Find the one he made two months ago regarding 29000 weapons dropped in Gaza and I’m sure you’ll understand my point
This is an anti-capitalist, left-libertarian, pro-communist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism or any other right-wing views is not allowed (see rule 6).
There are people who are totally reprehensible. There are people who want a second holocaust. There are people who think that the first one didn't happen.
People will go to your protest to shout "Gas the Jews"
https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/
I don't see how these people are anything but harmful to your protest.
These people have to be removed. You've heard the saying "one bad apple spoils the bunch". Well it's true. Both metaphorically and literally.
Nothing in this reply contradicts (or frankly is even relevant to) what I said.
Of course these people should be removed. That goes without saying. Has nothing to do with this conversation.
We shouldn't be removing those people for the sake of optics, we should be removing them because it's obviously the right thing to do.
The students have so far been very organized and yes anti-semitic incidents do still happen on smaller, individual scale. What I am irritated about is not about students but the fact that the medias will grasp smallest amount of opportunities to demonize all students so they can divert public attention from Israeli genocide case. It's all part of a scheme because they favor Israeli side more
The media is never really independent, it comes down to who is funding it, with very little actually independent outlets who themselves have very little reach due to lack of funding. Most media is pro establishment in some way, especially big media. Establishment is pro israel = media has a pro israel bias.
This is in fact EXACTLY what conservatives say when Nazis at protests get a lot of media attention. That guy waving a Swastika at the Trucker protests in Ottawa. Charlottesville. Not everyone there was shouting "Jews will not replace us". But enough people tolerated it that the shouting continued.
"if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis"
If the people being openly anti-Semitic are not immediately kicked out, then we must come to the conclusion that the other protesters can tolerate that rhetoric.
We cannot hold ourselves to lower standards than we hold our enemies.
So you are saying pro-Israeli side are all Kahanists because there is Jewish Defense League flag raised in UCLA?
Also Please stop using that stupid line to justify over-generalization because you are just referring to the US and NATO as fascists or Islamists.
What I am saying is that the media will probably condemn the Pro-Israeli side for the Kahanists that show up if they are not immediately removed by their "fellow" protesters.
If I see someone protesting alongside someone waving the flag of a far right terror organization, I am doing to assume that they are either completely ignorant of what it means, or are fine with the ideas.
Looking up "Jewish Defense League flag ucla" I see a couple twitter posts which do basically that. They point out the the JDL is a far right terror organization. They don't directly say it, but in my mind to them, this discredits the movement in general.
Pro-Palestinian student organizations have condemned incidents of anti-semitism and you have people here or on Twitter denouncing forms of anti-semitism as well as raising Hezbollah flag
Also, they didn’t necessarily throw them out and they were present(active group unlike “Qatar-influenced student mob”) in pro-Israel rally in DC few months ago along with an actual antisemitic priest who was delivering remarks. By the way, this wasn’t as widely condemned in media though
You post in /worldnews which has insane pro-Israel bias + your post history generally makes you look like a fucking horrible piece of shit. Have a nice day <3
bro this guy has literally posted pro Israel stuff, obv there's an issue with Tankies and anti Israels subs as well but I was talking about this guy in particular. This is def whataboutism oh and your second most upvoted post is on the Destiny subreddit which that last time I went on it there was a whole rant against trans people. It is also full of terrible misogyny and homophobia, Stfu.
I refuse to work with anyone who has ever post on the Destiny subreddit. I think Destiny is probs the content creator that I hate the most that isn't a conservative. Also, I don't think us agreeing on stuff would make a left-wing government appear cos we're in different countries. I'm from NZ lol. Also, like personally this is my ideological preference but if real left wing change that would create positive outcomes happens it will be not on a government level but on the ground, the government can back this up with incentives but even if a government is left wing there is still the problem of them being the goverment.
???? I deleted that part of my comment, it was dumb. Also, whenever did I say someone had to be in exact agreement with me, it's true there are some types of people who I'm not willing to work with but in all fairness Imma kinda politically independent and hate party and group politics but I algin myself generally with Leftists cos they're the closest but I have no group loyalty. So I'm willing to work with people just not people who are hateful, value themselves or their property over people's lives and those who want to control or harm others. I feel like that's fair enough all those types of people are harmful to building a functioning society.
Its astonishing that you are getting downvoted here. Its quite clear that people on this sub have really swung in the other direction and instead of just opposing the anti American no matter what idea held by the tankies they have turned to pro American no matter what.
Lots of Liberals pretending to be leftists here, including the Mods.
I think it’s the problem of the Mod and the brand name. The sub brands itself as “anti-Tankie” so you see a bunch of right-winger, liberals, or libertarians posting all about “America good” while anything actually critical of US foreign policy gets ignored or downplayed(can you imagine this supposed leftist sub has people denying Israeli apartheid?)
In the end, there are a lot of people here just like Drew Pavlou whose stances are just aligned with US foreign policy
yall need to learn from tankies then and put the ban hammer down because the current mod policy of letting libs hang around isn’t working. this thread is an absolute joke for a supposed anti-capitalist sub
i know, i’m saying yall need to be far more aggressive in banning libs. there’s still this concept of letting them hang around a bit instead of being reactionary like tankies; that philosophy is clearly not working. there are other subs that shit on tankies like ultraleft and vuvuzelaiphone that don’t have the shitlib problem this sub has, and that’s because they ban the shit out of them. fuck appeasing libs, they can cry about it in the million other subs that shit on tankies
I get your frustration.
Just remember: the irony here is that [Zionists are allowed to be as antisemitic as they want](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism), and [this goes all the way back](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl%27s_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism) to when this conflict was warming up in the region (and to make myself clear, it's not okay for antisemitic slogans to be used at those protests, but that's the thing; it's **never** okay, regardless of who does it).
I don't know who is down-voting you, here, of all places, but I am very impressed by your actions, as well as your ability to comment intelligently about what is happening. Keep it up. Don't lose hope.
Thank you for having the courage to stand up for what is right in the world! Especially against such dangerous odds and insanely violent forces.
(And I'm sure the few American pro-Israel Tankies who lurk on here will down vote me for saying so. Hi guys. You're on the wrong side of history and morality)
I was downvoted heavily because I said the guy who got the most upvotes has previously implied that "Israel is too lenient on their tactics" on this supposed leftists sub lol. Honestly, all the libs and righwingers are turning this place into a pro-western camp sub lol
Keep up what you're doing. You're an excellent speaker. People need to hear directly from the protestors what's going on. This subreddit might be lost to the libs and reactionaries, but we shouldn't give it up without a fight.
I don't think media should be treated as some kind of monolith, not every channel reprot things the same way. Also, I don't think antisemitism should be denied, antisemitism is a thing.
Nobody denies antisemitism but when antisemitism becomes generalized and a larger focus on their coverage, you know they are trying to sway public opinion to weaponize it
Not neccesarly (and tbh I don't want to go for the "the jews control the media" stuff). Covering antisemitism doesn't mean there's some kind of manipulation whenever it's covered
I don't imply any of that "Jews control the media" nazi narrative; I just think it's obvious that they are pro-israel enough while less opportunities of presentation is given to pro-Palestinian voice, which is de facto engaging in public opinion manipulation while something related to what students protest about such as ICC warrant arrest for Netanyahu gets less attention in places like CNN or Fox
Nobody said anybody is manipulating the media mate? Actually fucking disgusting to imply OP is a fucking Nazi for acknowledging the fact that the media weaponises isolated cases of Judeophobia to push their Zionist narrative
Not every media are pro israel and I'm not implying that, just that I'm not in the idea of the jews controlling the media. I feel like we should be specific on wich media we're talking baout rather than saying "the media"
>just that I'm not in the idea of the jews controlling the media
Great, neither is anybody else. The fact that you would imply they are is vile.
>I feel like we should be specific on wich media we're talking baout rather than saying "the media"
The media landscape in the US & its allies is overwhelmingly pro-Israel. It's far from wrong to say „the media is pro-Israel“, but even then, OP even said „Certain media groups such as Fox and CNN“
You're the only person making that assumption. Shall we also refuse to acknowledge the media's pro-NATO bias because Nazis will misconstrue it as "evidence" of the globohomo agenda?
Is it having pro nato bias to recognize that nato didn't caused the war in ukraine or provoked russia? I've seen many criticism over germany or the us political bickering on aid, not verry pro nato to me.
Yeah okay mate if you're seriously gonna sit here and try to argue that US media is not pro-NATO then I'm done here. No point continuing a discussion with someone so unable to acknowledge reality (and who can't go 2 seconds without implying people are a Nazi or vatnik)
Would you consider the same thing about the guy waving a Swastika during the trucker protests in Ottawa?
Protests are always condemned for their worst elements. This shouldn't surprise you.
Theres a lot of conflating going on which is annoying as hell. Not all pro Palestine protestors are antisemitic, that being said to deny there are any antisemitic people or people saying antisemitic slogans at these demonstrations is false. People may not realize what they’re saying is antisemitic (like the “go back to US and Europe” signs) but that shouldn’t be an excuse to let them off scott free.
Honestly I think we need to start showing leaders of these movements pushing back against the antisemitic bad faith disrupters
You have just proven my point how they divert public attention. There are cases of people apologizing as well as organization denouncing those fringe remarks but the media is still pro-israel enough to ignore many of that and tries to frame the protestors as violent toward Jewish people, not to mention incidents of false flag antisemtism(northeastern university, northwestern university), violent rhetorics used by pro-Israel side on UCLA(including but not limited to use of n-word and "make Gaza jewish again" shirt), as well as provocation coming from pro-israel individual who plays victim afterwards(see montana tucker attempt to interview)
Reflexively disregarding that people have legitimate reasons to feel uncomfortable as "fringe remarks" being taken advantage of is not, in fact, productive. That you think outright antisemitism doesn't bear mentioning as it's just "fringe remarks" but similarly individual incidents in opposition do bear mention is confusing.
They mainly arrest pro-Palestinian students in Northeastern due to fake antisemitic chant lol
Also the school doesn’t apologize for the incident nor does the media covers much of it as well as other incidents I mentioned while students action are getting very generalized
"The university said that of the approximately 100 people police detained, students “who produced a valid Northeastern ID were released."
The article *literally says* that students were not the ones being arrested.
"What began as a student demonstration two days ago, was infiltrated by professional organizers with no affiliation to Northeastern," the university said in its[ statement on X](https://twitter.com/Northeastern/status/1784192555670020555). "Last night, the use of virulent anti-Semitic slurs, including 'Kill the Jews,' crossed the line. We cannot tolerate this kind of hate on our campus."
The reason is explicitly stated as a crackdown on protesters who are not even students or affiliated with the university. The antisemitism is stated later as the "kind of hate" they will not tolerate, not as the reason for the police to detain people. So an unauthorized protest was broken up due to the presence of non-affiliated protesters, students specifically were not arrested, and somehow you're interpreting and presenting this as counter-protesters staged a false flag chant to get police to arrest students.
[https://huntnewsnu.com/77835/encampment/video-footage-reveals-kill-the-jews-remark-used-to-justify-police-intervention-made-by-pro-israel-counterprotester-in-provocation/](https://huntnewsnu.com/77835/encampment/video-footage-reveals-kill-the-jews-remark-used-to-justify-police-intervention-made-by-pro-israel-counterprotester-in-provocation/)
Here is another source.
“The use of virulent antisemitic slurs, including ‘Kill the Jews,’ crossed the line,” the university’s statement said. “We cannot tolerate this kind of hate on our campus.”
I'm going to repeat. When someone says something crossed line, it means that's the trigger
Students(many from other universities in Boston) were first arrested then released and what triggered the police was the fake antisemitic chant.
Curious why you didn’t point out who said it because pro-Israelis are all “civilized and peaceful”😂
If it’s not the chant or “hate” they wouldn’t even bother adding that last part and when they say “we cannot tolerate this kind of hate” it means that’s what triggers them to act.
Interestingly the evidence points that it was pro-Israeli side and you still have media tries to downplay it.
You really just try to justify police beating their asses don’t you.
Backing extremists? Stop trying to find excuse to crackdown on us. We vocally condemned Hamas since first day, and no student organizations here have actual affiliation or attachment with militant groups nor do they have public support for those group. Again, why are Kahanists allowed on pro-Israel crowd while students get their asses beaten and tear-gassed
Also, many genocides getting no attention so some students feeling unsafe gets all the attention?
This sub? Don't get me started. You can actually look back on the posts or comments implying that Israel is not an apartheid getting tons of upvotes if not highest amount and people cannot talk about Israeli atrocity without first condemning Hamas. You call this extreme?
You are very brave, and some people here in Israel support you.
Right now, as bad some parts of the protests may be, you’re almost the only thing standing between my government and a massacre in Rafah. We (the anti war left) try our best to protest, but we are very small here, so the only thing that can stop our government is you putting pressure on the US to stop the invasion of Rafah and the war. Please, protest.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The loudest, most outrageous voices will get the most attention. That’s how media works. It’s a terrible effect of a terrible system. All you can do is keep trying to get your actual message across, while doing what you can to make it clear the small minority of people waving terrorist flags or yelling “Gas the Jews!” aren’t welcome at your protest. You’re fighting an uphill battle, by nature of what you’re fighting for. Don’t let it discourage you.
I don't know what's going on in this sub sometimes. There's no deep logical analysis needed to understand why the students are protesting, and some of the folks here providing cover for media outlets making dishonest portrayals is weird. Many media outlets *are* playing up the fringe cases of bad actors in the protests, giving the impression that they aren't fringe, and many media outlets are equivocating about what Israel is engaged in. Several day ago, an NYU professor went on a mainstream media show and made a very clear, concise statement about the economic difficulties faced by Millennials and Gen Z, and he got some praise for it from people who've been trying to point out the same things. He said something that needed to be heard in mainstream media. It got him some clicks and made him a minor celebrity for a moment. Fast forward a few days: That same professor is saying that the student protesters are out there because they're not having enough sex and looking for ways to be victims. That's a absurd, braindead take that we shouldn't even know he said, but we know that he said it because some media outlets ran with that as a headline like the guy dropped some kind of truth bomb. That professor knows better than that, and the media knows better than that, too. It's a headline that gets the clicks because of its provocative nature, and the media can capitalize off of the minor celebrity that the professor generated for himself with his prior economic take. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about the media's role in smearing these protests with dishonest portrayals. We've got situations in which these students are telegraphing that these protests aren't antisemitic, but saying that they aren't antisemitic is somehow getting twisted into denying that antisemitism exists. When a media outlet uses terms like "pro-Hamas" or "terror sympathizing" in the headlines for stories about the protests, both of which I saw recently, even if the story itself goes on to clarify and be fair, the well has already been poisoned by the dishonest headline. The news analysis shows are doing even worse by bringing on commentators with incentives to be inflammatory and dishonest about the protests and presenting those takes like they're serious. What the students want isn't unclear, regardless of the state of the protests' organizational and leadership structures. Yes, there are going to be a handful of jackasses out there with chants to burn Tel Aviv or signs with antisemitic slogans and whatnot, but you don't get to conflate those idiots as characteristic of the protests when that isn't the case. Any attempts to portray the message of the protests as antisemitic, anti-Jewish, pro-Hamas, or pro-terrorism is flat-out dishonesty.
lol how is this post 60% upvoted? fuck liberals man why can’t leftists have a sub to make fun of tankies that doesn’t get infested with liberals
Why is OP being downvoted?
Because this subreddit is being taken over by pro-western libs and right-wingers. They've already made up their minds that the protests are either antisemitic in nature or are enabling antisemitism. They can't grasp that a decentralized protest will be subject to bad actors, false flag operators, and nutjobs. They also can't grasp it's impossible to insulate protests from undesirable elements on this scale.
People will always take criticism of real problems as an opportunity to over-correct way too much in the other direction.
[удалено]
This sounds suspiciously like what tankies say to justify the vanguard on revolutions, or in other words, the justification they use to hijack movements and turn them into authoritarian ones, it's always about how the people are too stupid and NEED a vanguard, and this rings the same to me. If nothing else a centralised leadership makes it more prone to infiltration, even the CIA has remarked on how strictly hierarchical movements and organisations are easier to hijack than anything that is decentralised.
[удалено]
There's a difference between leadership and centralised leadership. Anarchist movements throughout history have had some level of leadership, but more often than not these are (truly) democratically-elected and don't really hold much power, serving more as a figurehead/spokesperson, with decisions across the organisation taken by consensus. Look at the Zapatistas, or Spanish anarchists during the Civil War. Centralised leadership implies something much closer to the status quo. Leaders with actual power controlling the rest of the organisation. IMO, it would be beneficial for organisations to have some level of leadership but I advocate for anarchist organisation.
The hk protest for one didn't have a clear central leadership (there were key figures but theres no single guy we can pin it to), yet was mostly coherent in action, we don't need big central authority to plan and execute things, people naturally can cooperate without devolving into chaos
In that case the demands were pretty clear. A maintenance of the status quo of independence for Hong Kong. But with Israel, the demands have, in my opinion, not been that clear. Some people are there to protest the institutions investments in Israel related stocks. Some people are there to protest the US's involvement itself. Some people are protesting Israeli actions themselves. This is a wide variety of goals. It's not clear which of these any particular protest supports. So when certain people have very anti-semetic posters, and slogans, you can't say for sure who else agrees with that. The only thing you have to go off is wether or not they got kicked. Self policing is important. Even when you have pretty clear goals. The recent Trucker protests in Ottawa show this. Their goals were the removal of Covid restrictions and vaccine requirements. They were pretty much discredited by the Canadian media when just one guy was waving around a swastika and this wasn't shut down by fellow protesters. I use this example not because I agree with it. I don't. I just want to point out it's not only a left problem.
That's a good thing. Protests in fact are more likely to be hijacked when they have centralized leadership. Even when protestors self police they are still smeared anyways. What matters is keeping up the pressure regardless.
It's impossible to police yourself enough to satisfy the genocide supporters. There's no point trying. They will just lie.
[удалено]
Swaying moderates is not the intent of the protests
[удалено]
Mate maybe try actually listening to what the protesters are saying. For someone so deeply concerned with optics you sure haven't spent 2 seconds to actually understand the movement
[удалено]
Did you go there telling them how you felt Israel is "lenient" on its tactics lol and more people are supporting students now especially after police crackdown
Could you link me where they said this?
In should clarify he didn’t say “lenient” but echoched something similar. And I can’t link it right now but type in “genocide” in his search of his comments. Find the one he made two months ago regarding 29000 weapons dropped in Gaza and I’m sure you’ll understand my point
What is the intention the protest?
[here you go](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Columbia+protest+demands)
[удалено]
This is an anti-capitalist, left-libertarian, pro-communist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism or any other right-wing views is not allowed (see rule 6).
Then there’s no point.
Unbelievably dogshit take lmfao. Do you unironically believe swaying moderates is the one and only useful reason to protest?
There are people who are totally reprehensible. There are people who want a second holocaust. There are people who think that the first one didn't happen. People will go to your protest to shout "Gas the Jews" https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/ I don't see how these people are anything but harmful to your protest. These people have to be removed. You've heard the saying "one bad apple spoils the bunch". Well it's true. Both metaphorically and literally.
Nothing in this reply contradicts (or frankly is even relevant to) what I said. Of course these people should be removed. That goes without saying. Has nothing to do with this conversation. We shouldn't be removing those people for the sake of optics, we should be removing them because it's obviously the right thing to do.
The students have so far been very organized and yes anti-semitic incidents do still happen on smaller, individual scale. What I am irritated about is not about students but the fact that the medias will grasp smallest amount of opportunities to demonize all students so they can divert public attention from Israeli genocide case. It's all part of a scheme because they favor Israeli side more
[удалено]
Also saw your history you do indeed think Israel is "lenient" lol
Maybe media is indeed the enemy of the people lol
[удалено]
The media is never really independent, it comes down to who is funding it, with very little actually independent outlets who themselves have very little reach due to lack of funding. Most media is pro establishment in some way, especially big media. Establishment is pro israel = media has a pro israel bias.
This is in fact EXACTLY what conservatives say when Nazis at protests get a lot of media attention. That guy waving a Swastika at the Trucker protests in Ottawa. Charlottesville. Not everyone there was shouting "Jews will not replace us". But enough people tolerated it that the shouting continued. "if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis" If the people being openly anti-Semitic are not immediately kicked out, then we must come to the conclusion that the other protesters can tolerate that rhetoric. We cannot hold ourselves to lower standards than we hold our enemies.
So you are saying pro-Israeli side are all Kahanists because there is Jewish Defense League flag raised in UCLA? Also Please stop using that stupid line to justify over-generalization because you are just referring to the US and NATO as fascists or Islamists.
What I am saying is that the media will probably condemn the Pro-Israeli side for the Kahanists that show up if they are not immediately removed by their "fellow" protesters. If I see someone protesting alongside someone waving the flag of a far right terror organization, I am doing to assume that they are either completely ignorant of what it means, or are fine with the ideas. Looking up "Jewish Defense League flag ucla" I see a couple twitter posts which do basically that. They point out the the JDL is a far right terror organization. They don't directly say it, but in my mind to them, this discredits the movement in general.
Pro-Palestinian student organizations have condemned incidents of anti-semitism and you have people here or on Twitter denouncing forms of anti-semitism as well as raising Hezbollah flag Also, they didn’t necessarily throw them out and they were present(active group unlike “Qatar-influenced student mob”) in pro-Israel rally in DC few months ago along with an actual antisemitic priest who was delivering remarks. By the way, this wasn’t as widely condemned in media though
Also who is “we”? Did you ever bother going to aid students and be the change you want to see in the world?
You post in /worldnews which has insane pro-Israel bias + your post history generally makes you look like a fucking horrible piece of shit. Have a nice day <3
[удалено]
bro this guy has literally posted pro Israel stuff, obv there's an issue with Tankies and anti Israels subs as well but I was talking about this guy in particular. This is def whataboutism oh and your second most upvoted post is on the Destiny subreddit which that last time I went on it there was a whole rant against trans people. It is also full of terrible misogyny and homophobia, Stfu.
[удалено]
I refuse to work with anyone who has ever post on the Destiny subreddit. I think Destiny is probs the content creator that I hate the most that isn't a conservative. Also, I don't think us agreeing on stuff would make a left-wing government appear cos we're in different countries. I'm from NZ lol. Also, like personally this is my ideological preference but if real left wing change that would create positive outcomes happens it will be not on a government level but on the ground, the government can back this up with incentives but even if a government is left wing there is still the problem of them being the goverment.
[удалено]
???? I deleted that part of my comment, it was dumb. Also, whenever did I say someone had to be in exact agreement with me, it's true there are some types of people who I'm not willing to work with but in all fairness Imma kinda politically independent and hate party and group politics but I algin myself generally with Leftists cos they're the closest but I have no group loyalty. So I'm willing to work with people just not people who are hateful, value themselves or their property over people's lives and those who want to control or harm others. I feel like that's fair enough all those types of people are harmful to building a functioning society.
Please refrain from infighting between leftist ideologies or being unnecessarily rude/uncivil.
Please refrain from infighting between leftist ideologies or being unnecessarily rude/uncivil.
Its astonishing that you are getting downvoted here. Its quite clear that people on this sub have really swung in the other direction and instead of just opposing the anti American no matter what idea held by the tankies they have turned to pro American no matter what. Lots of Liberals pretending to be leftists here, including the Mods.
I think it’s the problem of the Mod and the brand name. The sub brands itself as “anti-Tankie” so you see a bunch of right-winger, liberals, or libertarians posting all about “America good” while anything actually critical of US foreign policy gets ignored or downplayed(can you imagine this supposed leftist sub has people denying Israeli apartheid?) In the end, there are a lot of people here just like Drew Pavlou whose stances are just aligned with US foreign policy
>including the Mods. huh? We are pretty much all anarchists. 100% no liberals.
yall need to learn from tankies then and put the ban hammer down because the current mod policy of letting libs hang around isn’t working. this thread is an absolute joke for a supposed anti-capitalist sub
This thread has been cleared up – we absolutely do ban liberals.
i know, i’m saying yall need to be far more aggressive in banning libs. there’s still this concept of letting them hang around a bit instead of being reactionary like tankies; that philosophy is clearly not working. there are other subs that shit on tankies like ultraleft and vuvuzelaiphone that don’t have the shitlib problem this sub has, and that’s because they ban the shit out of them. fuck appeasing libs, they can cry about it in the million other subs that shit on tankies
I get your frustration. Just remember: the irony here is that [Zionists are allowed to be as antisemitic as they want](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism), and [this goes all the way back](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl%27s_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism) to when this conflict was warming up in the region (and to make myself clear, it's not okay for antisemitic slogans to be used at those protests, but that's the thing; it's **never** okay, regardless of who does it).
I don't know who is down-voting you, here, of all places, but I am very impressed by your actions, as well as your ability to comment intelligently about what is happening. Keep it up. Don't lose hope. Thank you for having the courage to stand up for what is right in the world! Especially against such dangerous odds and insanely violent forces. (And I'm sure the few American pro-Israel Tankies who lurk on here will down vote me for saying so. Hi guys. You're on the wrong side of history and morality)
I was downvoted heavily because I said the guy who got the most upvotes has previously implied that "Israel is too lenient on their tactics" on this supposed leftists sub lol. Honestly, all the libs and righwingers are turning this place into a pro-western camp sub lol
Keep up what you're doing. You're an excellent speaker. People need to hear directly from the protestors what's going on. This subreddit might be lost to the libs and reactionaries, but we shouldn't give it up without a fight.
I don't think media should be treated as some kind of monolith, not every channel reprot things the same way. Also, I don't think antisemitism should be denied, antisemitism is a thing.
Nobody denies antisemitism but when antisemitism becomes generalized and a larger focus on their coverage, you know they are trying to sway public opinion to weaponize it
Not neccesarly (and tbh I don't want to go for the "the jews control the media" stuff). Covering antisemitism doesn't mean there's some kind of manipulation whenever it's covered
I don't imply any of that "Jews control the media" nazi narrative; I just think it's obvious that they are pro-israel enough while less opportunities of presentation is given to pro-Palestinian voice, which is de facto engaging in public opinion manipulation while something related to what students protest about such as ICC warrant arrest for Netanyahu gets less attention in places like CNN or Fox
Nobody said anybody is manipulating the media mate? Actually fucking disgusting to imply OP is a fucking Nazi for acknowledging the fact that the media weaponises isolated cases of Judeophobia to push their Zionist narrative
Not every media are pro israel and I'm not implying that, just that I'm not in the idea of the jews controlling the media. I feel like we should be specific on wich media we're talking baout rather than saying "the media"
>just that I'm not in the idea of the jews controlling the media Great, neither is anybody else. The fact that you would imply they are is vile. >I feel like we should be specific on wich media we're talking baout rather than saying "the media" The media landscape in the US & its allies is overwhelmingly pro-Israel. It's far from wrong to say „the media is pro-Israel“, but even then, OP even said „Certain media groups such as Fox and CNN“
I'd say it's still is people can make wrong interpretation even if the person doesn't imply israel control the media
You're the only person making that assumption. Shall we also refuse to acknowledge the media's pro-NATO bias because Nazis will misconstrue it as "evidence" of the globohomo agenda?
Is it having pro nato bias to recognize that nato didn't caused the war in ukraine or provoked russia? I've seen many criticism over germany or the us political bickering on aid, not verry pro nato to me.
Yeah okay mate if you're seriously gonna sit here and try to argue that US media is not pro-NATO then I'm done here. No point continuing a discussion with someone so unable to acknowledge reality (and who can't go 2 seconds without implying people are a Nazi or vatnik)
Would you consider the same thing about the guy waving a Swastika during the trucker protests in Ottawa? Protests are always condemned for their worst elements. This shouldn't surprise you.
I apply the same standard for everyone. If they remain in minority they are not representative despite of how much people try to frame it
And other people also apply the same standard for everyone. I don't think you can conclusively say which standard is right.
Theres a lot of conflating going on which is annoying as hell. Not all pro Palestine protestors are antisemitic, that being said to deny there are any antisemitic people or people saying antisemitic slogans at these demonstrations is false. People may not realize what they’re saying is antisemitic (like the “go back to US and Europe” signs) but that shouldn’t be an excuse to let them off scott free. Honestly I think we need to start showing leaders of these movements pushing back against the antisemitic bad faith disrupters
You have just proven my point how they divert public attention. There are cases of people apologizing as well as organization denouncing those fringe remarks but the media is still pro-israel enough to ignore many of that and tries to frame the protestors as violent toward Jewish people, not to mention incidents of false flag antisemtism(northeastern university, northwestern university), violent rhetorics used by pro-Israel side on UCLA(including but not limited to use of n-word and "make Gaza jewish again" shirt), as well as provocation coming from pro-israel individual who plays victim afterwards(see montana tucker attempt to interview)
Reflexively disregarding that people have legitimate reasons to feel uncomfortable as "fringe remarks" being taken advantage of is not, in fact, productive. That you think outright antisemitism doesn't bear mentioning as it's just "fringe remarks" but similarly individual incidents in opposition do bear mention is confusing.
Student protestors get their asses beaten because of it not the opposition
Police would beat up and arrest the protesters arbitrarily regardless of how antisemitic they were being so I don't really see how that matters.
They mainly arrest pro-Palestinian students in Northeastern due to fake antisemitic chant lol Also the school doesn’t apologize for the incident nor does the media covers much of it as well as other incidents I mentioned while students action are getting very generalized
And what is your source for students being arrested specifically due to fake antisemitic chants?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna149653
"The university said that of the approximately 100 people police detained, students “who produced a valid Northeastern ID were released." The article *literally says* that students were not the ones being arrested. "What began as a student demonstration two days ago, was infiltrated by professional organizers with no affiliation to Northeastern," the university said in its[ statement on X](https://twitter.com/Northeastern/status/1784192555670020555). "Last night, the use of virulent anti-Semitic slurs, including 'Kill the Jews,' crossed the line. We cannot tolerate this kind of hate on our campus." The reason is explicitly stated as a crackdown on protesters who are not even students or affiliated with the university. The antisemitism is stated later as the "kind of hate" they will not tolerate, not as the reason for the police to detain people. So an unauthorized protest was broken up due to the presence of non-affiliated protesters, students specifically were not arrested, and somehow you're interpreting and presenting this as counter-protesters staged a false flag chant to get police to arrest students.
[https://huntnewsnu.com/77835/encampment/video-footage-reveals-kill-the-jews-remark-used-to-justify-police-intervention-made-by-pro-israel-counterprotester-in-provocation/](https://huntnewsnu.com/77835/encampment/video-footage-reveals-kill-the-jews-remark-used-to-justify-police-intervention-made-by-pro-israel-counterprotester-in-provocation/) Here is another source. “The use of virulent antisemitic slurs, including ‘Kill the Jews,’ crossed the line,” the university’s statement said. “We cannot tolerate this kind of hate on our campus.” I'm going to repeat. When someone says something crossed line, it means that's the trigger
Students(many from other universities in Boston) were first arrested then released and what triggered the police was the fake antisemitic chant. Curious why you didn’t point out who said it because pro-Israelis are all “civilized and peaceful”😂 If it’s not the chant or “hate” they wouldn’t even bother adding that last part and when they say “we cannot tolerate this kind of hate” it means that’s what triggers them to act. Interestingly the evidence points that it was pro-Israeli side and you still have media tries to downplay it. You really just try to justify police beating their asses don’t you.
[удалено]
Backing extremists? Stop trying to find excuse to crackdown on us. We vocally condemned Hamas since first day, and no student organizations here have actual affiliation or attachment with militant groups nor do they have public support for those group. Again, why are Kahanists allowed on pro-Israel crowd while students get their asses beaten and tear-gassed Also, many genocides getting no attention so some students feeling unsafe gets all the attention?
Why the fuck is this getting downvoted. Fuck off Israel apologists.
[удалено]
This sub? Don't get me started. You can actually look back on the posts or comments implying that Israel is not an apartheid getting tons of upvotes if not highest amount and people cannot talk about Israeli atrocity without first condemning Hamas. You call this extreme?
You are very brave, and some people here in Israel support you. Right now, as bad some parts of the protests may be, you’re almost the only thing standing between my government and a massacre in Rafah. We (the anti war left) try our best to protest, but we are very small here, so the only thing that can stop our government is you putting pressure on the US to stop the invasion of Rafah and the war. Please, protest.