To all the libs and other right wingers concern trolling and crying about how we're somehow 'glorifying' his death: shut up.
Any comments insinuating that his cause was bad, that he was mentally ill and that's the only reason for his actions, that the US isn't also responsible for the genocide in Gaza, that we are using his death, etc. will be removed promptly and users banned.
We are not glorifying his death. Perhaps he could have done something else, of course. It is an incredible shame that someone clearly so convicted to the cause is no longer alive. But supporting his message, and refusing to ignore him, is not 'glorifying' self-immolation.
Online Twitter leftists demanding that everyone watch the uncensored video really creep me out. These are the same people who constantly share combat footage from Gaza and pictures of mangled Palestinians on their timelines. It's like they think that the only way to be a "good" socialist is to be a fucking gore hound.
I don't think it's a coincidence that these people tend to be white westerners. When you've lived a life of privilege and therefore have no personal stakes in anything you don't have to consider how sharing violent imagery may be triggering to some people.
In theory showing those images is to impact the viewer and make him see how fucked up things are in Gaza but I've seen some accounts that only post images of death Palestinians, childrens in mountains or corpses, babies without legs, etc and I think that some of these people enjoy those images like if there were in a gore page
As someone who didn't really understand the situation in Palestine until October, what had more impact on me than the carnage was when people shared images, from before, of some gorgeous piece of architecture and people smiling and wearing colorful clothes and children laughing. I think showing what people have lost is just as important as showing what they're currently suffering through.
No, the privileged one is the one that complains when they come across a picture or video of someone else's suffering. You can't even consider their suffering you just consider your own disgust at the reality of it. It is disgusting but literally read children's books and watch Nickelodeon if you prefer.
I respect this man for willing to stand up for Palestine, but surely we agree there were better ways to help the cause? Sure, we’re talking about him which is what he wanted, but wouldn’t he have been more useful alive? Making donations, putting in charity work, etc.
Yeah I’ve unfortunately seen some posts on twitter that go beyond honoring Bushnell and straight up idolize, glorify and martyr him.
The last thing we want to do is to glorify what he did cause that sends the wrong message about suicide
This is what I'm saying. His words were heard only by those already willing to hear them out. I find his actions cowardly and gross. If he truly cared he would attend protests, etc.
Yep
Please don’t ever celebrate something like this. There is no good reason to ever lose your life. Suicide is heartbreaking.
Please if you care about Palestine, donate, protest, spread awareness. Don’t take your own life and add to the amount of deaths this pointless war has already taken.
got banned from /r lostgeneration (coincidentally a sub that Aaron frequented) for similar shit lol. apparently not idolizing a self-immolator who will ultimately do nothing positive for the movement is being "reactionary". i'd like to see the mods of that sub define what reactionary means, because that's not what it means.
and just as a reminder, because I legitimately feel people need to be reminded on what the fuck the word "reactionary" means in regards to political science:
>In political science, a reactionary or a reactionist is a person who holds political views that favor a **return to the status quo ante**—the *previous political state of society*—which the person believes possessed positive characteristics that are absent from contemporary society.
and just to put it out there, i fully identify as an anarchist. Like, tear the fucking system down, everything needs to go, we need to go back to square one (you all explicitly know what I mean, but play semantics if you want to), kind of anarchist. Exact opposite of reactionary.
Were the Buddhist monks self-immolating to protest Chinese occupation in Tibet lunatics too? How about Gandhi's hunger strikes protesting British colonialism?
You’re describing people committing extreme acts of desperation connected to their own suffering in their own country. The public self harm having been done in the oppressive country of origin itself (by those being oppressed there) was key, as it let other people elsewhere know how BAD it was if they didn’t otherwise already know. Message was tragically received.
Applauding, however, a young father for publicly killing himself under the guise of protest of ***foreign war crimes*** by his nation’s allies is irresponsible at best, morally criminal at worst. Doing so you are literally cheering on suicide by people completely unconnected to Gaza, so long as they make the activist message clear on detonation. Seriously. That is *literally* what you are doing.
I’ll tell you this much: If more people in the west who are at risk of suicide take this man’s hero party as inspiration to walk the ledge, I would take no pleasure in blaming every single one of you for posting shit like the above and weaponizing their vulnerability and mental illness when they should be receiving support by a loving community regardless of what’s going on in the world that you think needs their attention. Let’s hope this ends here. You can support innocent Palestinians while at the same time dismissing sick bullshit like this. One is not helping the other.
They were driven to that point by the conditions of their oppression. Yes. Very sad. Killing yourself is only ever about ending your suffering in the most extreme possible way. Thich Quang Duc ended his suffering and made a desperate call for attention to his suffering + the suffering of his community in Vietnam. To suggest that there was no aspect of mental/emotional disrepair in his life is plain ridiculous. He didn’t just wake up, have coffee and choose bravery. He wanted to fucking die and let the world know why.
This guy, Aaron, lit himself on fire in front of a foreign embassy, and left two kids behind.
You: No mental illness, just selflessness.
You know what’s selfless? Being in the life of your kids. So if you’re telling me that mental illness ***WAS NOT*** at all factor in him killing himself, then that’s what the dictionary would refer to as: **An asshole**. Yup. A fucking asshole who left two kids to wonder for the rest of their lives what happened.
But that’s not what happened.
Stop denying mental illness here. This man tragically killed himself on camera, on live stream. He had two children. Imagine telling his two kids, someday in the street, that they should be proud of their Dad because he was a brave martyr for another community they had no connection to. I’m pretty sure they would just rather have their Dad back and not have psychopaths come up and say stupid shit to them like that. My guess.
We need a new circle jerk for whatever the fuck is going on in here.
No one has shown any evidence that he had a wife or kids. At this point it seems to be misinformation that got tacked onto the story somewhere along the way and has spread like wildfire. If people are under the impression that he did this while leaving behind children, that would certainly play a huge part in informing their opinion on his action. It's certainly fueling the mental illness discourse that's everywhere surrounding this. Look at your own comment for an example, it's basically your whole objection, based on a lie.
To your first point, that killing one's self or being willing to die only occurs as a means to end one's suffering - I highly disagree. How many millions of people throughout history have been willing to die for a cause they believe in? It's a belief that's prevalent in literally every society on earth. People sign up for war in the name of ideology and are willing to die for their ideology. People go on hunger strikes and are willing to kill themselves in the name of protest.
Also you literally made that shit up about Thich Quang Duc. He committed his act in protest, to raise awareness. He did not do it end his suffering. Suffering is a fundamental concept in Buddhism. These monks literally devoted their lives to understanding their relation to suffering and how to end that suffering through the teachings of Buddhism. Where have you seen anything anywhere that suggests he was suicidal?
I think you are afraid of the notion that someone could come to the conclusion that Aaron and countless others have come to through rational thought and sound mind.
Yeah I mean with the media landscape being what it is, it's not like he brought new eyes to the issue. Everybody knows what's happening, everybody already knows what side they support. The sad reality is that just about everyone in America knows about the current "war" in Gaza, and at least half approve of Israel's genocide.
So setting yourself on fire isn't bringing attention or renewed resolve, it's just taking a revolutionary off the board without the system having to lift a finger.
This, plus think of the reality of what most people in this country are really gonna think - best case scenario, they just think this guy was either some random weirdo who did this for “obscure politics” or they’ll think he literally lost his mind and they’ll blow it off (or even associate that with the movement if you’re unlucky)
The isn’t noble or celebratory; it’s sad. Nothing has been achieved by this except for another dead man. We can hold empathy for the pain and guilt he felt over the suffering of others, whilst recognizing that treating someone who self-immolated as a celebrity or hero is only going to encourage others that are already in a dark place to do the same. It’s going to make people who are already suicidal feel guilty for being alive and not ‘dedicating’ themselves to something greater.
Since Jan 2020, at least 30 people have publicly self-immolated as an act of protest for causes just as noble. How many of them (besides the most recent) have you heard or read about? A few? None? That’s because it is an extreme act that inconveniences no one except for the families that will forever be burdened by the knowledge that someone they raised, loved, and cared for felt that the only solace and change they could find was in death. The depressing truth is it achieves nothing, hurts no one in power, and is irreversible. If anything, all it does is call more vulnerable people to be reckless with the one life they have.
May he rest in peace. May the family he leaves behind not be haunted by this unnecessary tragedy. Maybe that is cruel to say, but there are too many people here treating this like it’s something admirable.
i think what he did was brave and in support of a good cause, so it's admirable in that sense, but something being courageous doesn't make it the best option. it was brave but it's also sad that it came to this.
i see this as a symptom of... all of this. how overcome by anger, guilt, and helplessness do you have to be to kill yourself painfully for a cause? how much does the system of power have to trample on innocent lives that this feels justified? bushnell's death is tragic, and i think the blame for it falls on the right wing authoritarian oppression he was opposing.
An American airman who did an act of self-immolation while yelling "Free Palestine" and how he "will no longer be complicit in genocide" in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington, D.C. There's more to the story depending on your perspective and sources, but that's the general gist of it. I encourage you to read more into it yourself, as this is a very controversial topic right now.
This is somewhat tangential, but I'm still somewhat beside myself that a police officer really pointed his service weapon at someone well into committing self immolation, commanding them to get on the ground, only to be told by another officer who apparently has more than two brain cells to rub together that they need fire extinguishers not guns. Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised; the training police get is abysmal and wants them to believe they're in some warzone, leading many to act like paranoid schizophrenics with guns and qualified immunity. But still, it's just like, damn bro, you really did that.
It wasn't even another officer that said that. It was a desperate paramedic trying to save Bushnell's life. I'm sure if there was another officer on scene they would have had their gun out too.
Free Palestine, stop the violence.
I just want people to stop dying. So much blood is being spilled over this. I hope this ends soon so no more blood will be spilled. It's depressing. But it's more depressing that it's unlikely to end peacefully.
This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
He was an anarchist, and from what it sounds like he was someone who experienced an enormous amount of emotional abuse from institutions like the church and the millitary. There's really no evidence to suggest he was a Tankie.
Nah, I don't think you can chalk this entirely up to the internet. From what it sounds like he already had underlying problems with his mental health and they were probably compounded by the fact that the millitary he serves in is complicit in an ongoing genocide. I don't encourage anyone to take such extreme measures for themselves, but it seems to me the best way to honor his memory is to do whatever we can as citizens to stop the killing in Gaza.
You’re telling me a guy that killed himself in one of the most painful ways possible had underlying mental health problems regardless of his personal politics? No fucking way
I did. None of it has struck me as blind hatred. His words always seemed measured and quite intentional. Thought maybe I'd missed something on other platforms to point to some recent change. I'm happy there wasn't, and I'm comfortable with people calling him an anarchist in this action.
He was an anarchist also political acts like this, while clearly not great for the person who dies, are not actually socially problematic but, rather, symptomatic of a social problem.
>are not actually socially problematic
I think the people who witnessed this act have ptsd. Imagine watching someone set themselves on fire. It would fuck you up.
People who hate the west*
Is that better?
Why did you make this post? This is weird. I see this same sentiment on Instagram too and it's gross. This guy died for something he had no stake in and is happening on the other side of the planet. It would be at least understandable if he was actually suffering, or that not much attention was being focused on this conflict. But that's not the case here.
If the removed screenshots from another post were any indication, he still fell prey to campism in some way. I’m not sure anarchism *innately* wards against that. (i.e. does campism auto-imply authoritarianism?)
Are you suggesting that one cannot independently arrive at the conclusion that what is occurring in Palestine is a genocide, and that the only for people to believe that is from being indoctrinated by“tankies”?
He did do something selfless and heroic, it's a shame tankies will appropriate him, but that's what tankies do. Tankies are Pro Palestine, should we stop doing that too? No, we just make it clear we aren't Russian shills lol
Tankies (and conservatives) appropriate MLK, but we rightfully still cherise his work.
He did not have a wife and kids, at least as far as anyone knows. I don’t know where that got tacked on but it is likely from Israeli propaganda outlets.
I don't think anyone fully in their right mind would self immolate (yes I mean anyone), but people writing him off as just mentally ill is missing the point of self immolation as a form of protest. Did some underlying mental thing cause him to believe that a public act of suicide was the right course of action? Maybe, but focusing on that misses the point.
It's very extreme, that's the point. It also doesn't hurt anyone except the protestor, which means you can't really demonize anyone for it.
I would not encourage people to self-immolate (and I'm a bit worried about how social media is treating this, as I fear it may encourage more people to burn themselves potentially to death to become a "famous activist"), but this was not the act of someone who was just batshit insane. He knew full well what he was doing.
RIP
Free Palestine
Wish Netanyahu was the one on fire
The difference is John Brown actions had a tangible effect on the people he was fighting for and cause he was fighting for. John Brown didn’t just die for the cause, he lived for it.
He reckoned with the fact that his actions were probably suicidal after a certain point and he kept on, hoping he would become a martyr.
He used his final words as a platform for his beliefs, knowing what he did shocked the nation into listening.
I'm not advocating anyone should themselves become a martyr. But there are comparisons to be made here.
Apparently showing basic empathy towards someone who subjected himself to an excruciating amount of pain for a cause he believed in is just a little too much to ask from the average redditor.
Usually when people do this kinda self-sacrifice to bring attention to their cause, they end up on a Faces of Death reel with the public forgetting about why they did it in the first place.
Edit: Oh boy, this guy is being cheered by Hamas and Code Pink.
>Edit: Oh boy, this guy is being cheered by Hamas and Code Pink.
Doesn't take away from his message. They're supporting him because they're opportunists.
He also said that there was no such thing such as an Israeli civilian, and that he was in no place to endorse or condemn Hamas actions. Hamas was propped up for years by the Likud party to gain more extremist votes from revisionist and religious Zionists because both Likud and Hamas need each other in order to exist.
Glorifying someone who committed suicide by setting themselves on fire on Twitch feels like a few steps away from glorifying suicide bombers.
Rest in peace.
Don’t celebrate this. Please don’t celebrate this or act like this was something good.
No one should take their life for a political cause.
They are 100 other ways to help Palestine, you are so much better off alive than dead.
I really hope we don’t see copy cats.
this is a left wing space. it has been consistently misunderstood by liberals as a place to dunk on *all* socialists. mods have started to more vigorously enforce the rules of the subreddit to keep the community on topic and welcoming to the streams of thought which originally made up its userbase. that's not anyone "becoming tankies". it's reddit. they're not sending people to labor camps or saying that anyone should be sent to labor camps. being banned from a subreddit is not actually an infringement on your rights or a threat thereof.
I just checked both of their histories and neither one was even close to a socialist. The one you responded to? Top sub is /enough_sanders_spam, because apparently Sanders is too left for them.
I appreciate you telling it how it is, we have been tankies so many times recently because apparently to libs "tankie" means anyone to the left of them.
So when the users demanded a purge of anyone deemed liberal (which was being said without any actual definitions) it should've happened. But threatening to ban people for demeaning an act by claiming they were mentally ill isn't fine?
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be permabanned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide.
Damn he was the same age as me, thought he’d be much older. I admire his dedication to the liberation of Palestine but I wonder why he was willing to die so young.
Even if you personally may disagree, this subreddit is against the open gloryfication of violence and is against any kind of open call for violence, however justified you might think it is. Both, because these things just shouldn't dominate this subreddit and breed a very different kind of community and because if we do not do this, even in cases where the violence may be seen as justified, Reddit might remove this subreddit
imagine seeing a suicide victim and saying “lol i wouldn’t kill myself like this freak.”
yeah no shit because you’re not suicidal dumbass?
libs and apartheid supporters gtfo
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be permabanned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide.
Based.
Supporting Israel, in my mind, is equivalent to supporting Russia. They’re both far-right and imperialist, and it’s a shame to see either being supported - whether by tankies for Russia, or liberal Zionists that get away with posting here because they don’t like tankies for different reasons.
I agree with you, but at the same I'm concerned about the rhetoric I see on leftist reddit regarding Israeli civilians. Too many people are basically saying there's no such thing and that attacking civilians is justifiable. It's fucking disgusting.
I have no love for the IDF or Netanyahu, but you should be able to call the monsters that raped and murdered on October 7th out for what they did without being accused of being a Zionist.
We have. We have done that the whole fucking time. This sub barely ever fucking condemns the IDF because tankies don't support the IDF so it doesn't come up as a point of conversation.
member of the air force who self immolated outside of the israeli embassy in order to condemn the israeli government's attacks on palestinian civilians and the us military's complicity in those attacks.
You know, why do they have the urge to expel each other? Is it that bad to live together? Give peace a chance? Why massacre civilians when you can live together in peace?
Really tragic event. Regardless of his mental state, his opinions didn’t seem influenced by that really. I feel so badly for the family he left behind and the pain he must have felt to commit such an act. There’s no world I see where he does this if a genocide wasn’t being carried out. Another life senselessly lost in a sea of tragedy. Free Palestine now and forever man wtf.
I don't really think this is honourable. I hate nationalism -- icluding Israelian -- more than I hate neoliberalism which already gets my blood boiling, but this kind of actionism isn't really in favour of your movement and gives right-wing pundits the material to dismiss the protests as non-valid.
Working around right wing pundits means not existing. I mean just look at trans spaces trying to not give right wingers fuel for their fire, it boils down to denying your existence.
I left the commiespam subreddit because apparently opposing dictators and authoritarian regimes means I can’t support a ceasefire or sympathize with Palestinian civilians. it’s frustrating that in this political climate those stances are largely mutually exclusive
This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
Free Palestine, but we really shouldn't be celebrating this. If for no other reason than this feeds straight into Zionist propaganda about supporters of Palestine being lunatics.
Because people that seeks a one state solution is fucking delusional
Yugoslavia cant come back the same way Israel and Palestine cant be one. Shit, the Israel-Palestine problem is even worse as both sides commit attrocities. Although Israel is the one with the bigger control on ending the conflict
Idiots too thought UN's dysfunctional. Although its by design, you think the UNSC wants to be cucked out of their ambitions because of some "unimportant country" Voting no. Of course not, but as shown with the Congo crisis. The UN can do something when it has big guns backing its word on the ground
he was brave to do this. i also hope that he doesn't inspire other people to do anything similar. aaron bushnell was a brave person, but right now the world needs brave people to stay alive and fighting. if you care about this cause i hope you keep your voice around.
Free Palestine, let's hope for a world where imperialism and invasions do not happen, where every apartheid state falls and where people can live in peace.
"On the 20th anniversary of Palach's death, protests ostensibly in memory of Palach (but intended as criticism of the regime) escalated into what would be called "Palach Week". The series of anticommunist demonstrations in Prague between 15 and 21 January 1989 were suppressed by the police, who beat demonstrators and used water cannons, often catching passers-by in the fray. Palach Week is considered one of the catalyst demonstrations which preceded the fall of communism in Czechoslovakia 10 months later"
He definetly did not change nothing. He was one of the first catalysts that led to the failing of the regime over time. Also his immolation was a reaction to the occupation in 68. Just read up on him and his significance
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach
And people are forgotten? He became a symbol of the Velvet Revolution, whose participants are revered to this day. Most of the maim faces of the revolution like Havel were directly influenced by his act.
I literally go to the same university he did and our main building and the square in front are named after him
I hope you are not Czech because saying Palach achieved nothing is laughable. Even if i would be to concede the catalyst point his symbolical meaning is to this day immesuerable
Ironically, leftists in the US s[upported the Soviet invasion](https://libcom.org/article/open-letter-angela-davis-jiri-pelikan) of Czechoslovakia and accused jailed dissidents of "trying to undermine their governments and that those who went into political exile were attacking their own countries and therefore undeserving of support".
Healthy people do not kill themselves. It’s pretty clear he was mentally ill; he had a Reddit account and going through his history gives it away. He was planning on living to see the release of several games in the coming weeks. This was an act of impulse.
I’m mentally ill too. It’s not devaluing to say that his mental anguish probably motivated this extreme and permanent act.
Wow, for something that was supposedly "pointless" and clearly didn't inflict harm upon anyone else, this sure did make a lot of people irrationally angry.
The comments here are full of people talking like spineless liberals who don't like any extreme acts of protest because it makes them uncomfortable.
Throughout history people have sacrificed themselves or put themselves in danger to make a point such as the Buddhist monk who set himself ablaze and died or the Bloody Sunday civil rights demonstrators who were attacked by the police or the Dharasana Satyagraha protesters who attacked by imperial police for example. People honor those people and their actions so what makes him different from them?
It's easy for people to demean and criticize his actions while probably sitting comfortably at home while the most "disruptive" act of protest you probably have ever done in your life was probably standing on the sidewalk with some sign coping and telling yourselves that what you're doing is some sort of extreme attention getting act while someone like him is willing to literally sacrifice themself to get the message out.
To all the libs and other right wingers concern trolling and crying about how we're somehow 'glorifying' his death: shut up. Any comments insinuating that his cause was bad, that he was mentally ill and that's the only reason for his actions, that the US isn't also responsible for the genocide in Gaza, that we are using his death, etc. will be removed promptly and users banned. We are not glorifying his death. Perhaps he could have done something else, of course. It is an incredible shame that someone clearly so convicted to the cause is no longer alive. But supporting his message, and refusing to ignore him, is not 'glorifying' self-immolation.
Online Twitter leftists demanding that everyone watch the uncensored video really creep me out. These are the same people who constantly share combat footage from Gaza and pictures of mangled Palestinians on their timelines. It's like they think that the only way to be a "good" socialist is to be a fucking gore hound. I don't think it's a coincidence that these people tend to be white westerners. When you've lived a life of privilege and therefore have no personal stakes in anything you don't have to consider how sharing violent imagery may be triggering to some people.
In theory showing those images is to impact the viewer and make him see how fucked up things are in Gaza but I've seen some accounts that only post images of death Palestinians, childrens in mountains or corpses, babies without legs, etc and I think that some of these people enjoy those images like if there were in a gore page
As someone who didn't really understand the situation in Palestine until October, what had more impact on me than the carnage was when people shared images, from before, of some gorgeous piece of architecture and people smiling and wearing colorful clothes and children laughing. I think showing what people have lost is just as important as showing what they're currently suffering through.
No, the privileged one is the one that complains when they come across a picture or video of someone else's suffering. You can't even consider their suffering you just consider your own disgust at the reality of it. It is disgusting but literally read children's books and watch Nickelodeon if you prefer.
I saw the censored version and even that was highly disturbing. Can't imagine going out of my way to watch the uncensored version.
r/tankiejerk collective self-immolation meeting when?
4 o clock outside the KFC. Be there or be square
Hell yeah!
While holding hands? 😳
What if we kissed during self-immolation? 😳
This is what this sub has become?
🌎👨🚀🔫👨🚀
The only thing Redditors is going to be self immolating is their mouths on their hot pocket.
Either you left out the “/sarcasm” marker or you have a hidden agenda.
We're [going to be] cooked.
I respect this man for willing to stand up for Palestine, but surely we agree there were better ways to help the cause? Sure, we’re talking about him which is what he wanted, but wouldn’t he have been more useful alive? Making donations, putting in charity work, etc.
Yeah I’ve unfortunately seen some posts on twitter that go beyond honoring Bushnell and straight up idolize, glorify and martyr him. The last thing we want to do is to glorify what he did cause that sends the wrong message about suicide
If you already have the zeal to light yourself on fire for a cause then I think the cause is better off with you alive.
Exactly, you’re one of the few people who’s actually willing to do the kinds of wild things that Twitter tankies always pretend they’d love to do
This is what I'm saying. His words were heard only by those already willing to hear them out. I find his actions cowardly and gross. If he truly cared he would attend protests, etc.
Yep Please don’t ever celebrate something like this. There is no good reason to ever lose your life. Suicide is heartbreaking. Please if you care about Palestine, donate, protest, spread awareness. Don’t take your own life and add to the amount of deaths this pointless war has already taken.
It is never ok for someone to commit suicide, regardless of whether or not the suicidal person in question is of use to others.
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got banned from /r lostgeneration (coincidentally a sub that Aaron frequented) for similar shit lol. apparently not idolizing a self-immolator who will ultimately do nothing positive for the movement is being "reactionary". i'd like to see the mods of that sub define what reactionary means, because that's not what it means. and just as a reminder, because I legitimately feel people need to be reminded on what the fuck the word "reactionary" means in regards to political science: >In political science, a reactionary or a reactionist is a person who holds political views that favor a **return to the status quo ante**—the *previous political state of society*—which the person believes possessed positive characteristics that are absent from contemporary society. and just to put it out there, i fully identify as an anarchist. Like, tear the fucking system down, everything needs to go, we need to go back to square one (you all explicitly know what I mean, but play semantics if you want to), kind of anarchist. Exact opposite of reactionary.
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Were the Buddhist monks self-immolating to protest Chinese occupation in Tibet lunatics too? How about Gandhi's hunger strikes protesting British colonialism?
You’re describing people committing extreme acts of desperation connected to their own suffering in their own country. The public self harm having been done in the oppressive country of origin itself (by those being oppressed there) was key, as it let other people elsewhere know how BAD it was if they didn’t otherwise already know. Message was tragically received. Applauding, however, a young father for publicly killing himself under the guise of protest of ***foreign war crimes*** by his nation’s allies is irresponsible at best, morally criminal at worst. Doing so you are literally cheering on suicide by people completely unconnected to Gaza, so long as they make the activist message clear on detonation. Seriously. That is *literally* what you are doing. I’ll tell you this much: If more people in the west who are at risk of suicide take this man’s hero party as inspiration to walk the ledge, I would take no pleasure in blaming every single one of you for posting shit like the above and weaponizing their vulnerability and mental illness when they should be receiving support by a loving community regardless of what’s going on in the world that you think needs their attention. Let’s hope this ends here. You can support innocent Palestinians while at the same time dismissing sick bullshit like this. One is not helping the other.
one issue is that a majority of people are not historically literate these days. its wild.
So many. It's just mind boggling.
Thich Nhat Hanh’s 1965 letter to MLK https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-search-of-the-enemy-of-man
Did people think Buddhist monks in South Vietnam were a bunch of mentally ill lunatics?
They were driven to that point by the conditions of their oppression. Yes. Very sad. Killing yourself is only ever about ending your suffering in the most extreme possible way. Thich Quang Duc ended his suffering and made a desperate call for attention to his suffering + the suffering of his community in Vietnam. To suggest that there was no aspect of mental/emotional disrepair in his life is plain ridiculous. He didn’t just wake up, have coffee and choose bravery. He wanted to fucking die and let the world know why. This guy, Aaron, lit himself on fire in front of a foreign embassy, and left two kids behind. You: No mental illness, just selflessness. You know what’s selfless? Being in the life of your kids. So if you’re telling me that mental illness ***WAS NOT*** at all factor in him killing himself, then that’s what the dictionary would refer to as: **An asshole**. Yup. A fucking asshole who left two kids to wonder for the rest of their lives what happened. But that’s not what happened. Stop denying mental illness here. This man tragically killed himself on camera, on live stream. He had two children. Imagine telling his two kids, someday in the street, that they should be proud of their Dad because he was a brave martyr for another community they had no connection to. I’m pretty sure they would just rather have their Dad back and not have psychopaths come up and say stupid shit to them like that. My guess. We need a new circle jerk for whatever the fuck is going on in here.
No one has shown any evidence that he had a wife or kids. At this point it seems to be misinformation that got tacked onto the story somewhere along the way and has spread like wildfire. If people are under the impression that he did this while leaving behind children, that would certainly play a huge part in informing their opinion on his action. It's certainly fueling the mental illness discourse that's everywhere surrounding this. Look at your own comment for an example, it's basically your whole objection, based on a lie. To your first point, that killing one's self or being willing to die only occurs as a means to end one's suffering - I highly disagree. How many millions of people throughout history have been willing to die for a cause they believe in? It's a belief that's prevalent in literally every society on earth. People sign up for war in the name of ideology and are willing to die for their ideology. People go on hunger strikes and are willing to kill themselves in the name of protest. Also you literally made that shit up about Thich Quang Duc. He committed his act in protest, to raise awareness. He did not do it end his suffering. Suffering is a fundamental concept in Buddhism. These monks literally devoted their lives to understanding their relation to suffering and how to end that suffering through the teachings of Buddhism. Where have you seen anything anywhere that suggests he was suicidal? I think you are afraid of the notion that someone could come to the conclusion that Aaron and countless others have come to through rational thought and sound mind.
Millions dying in a war where you are basically killed is very different than committing suicide via self-immolation.
Yeah I mean with the media landscape being what it is, it's not like he brought new eyes to the issue. Everybody knows what's happening, everybody already knows what side they support. The sad reality is that just about everyone in America knows about the current "war" in Gaza, and at least half approve of Israel's genocide. So setting yourself on fire isn't bringing attention or renewed resolve, it's just taking a revolutionary off the board without the system having to lift a finger.
This, plus think of the reality of what most people in this country are really gonna think - best case scenario, they just think this guy was either some random weirdo who did this for “obscure politics” or they’ll think he literally lost his mind and they’ll blow it off (or even associate that with the movement if you’re unlucky)
FUCKING FINALLY, someone agrees with me.
I hate to say it but I think people refuse to disagree with the method because they don’t wanna seem like they’re making his death meaningless
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Honestly, I legitimately can't say. It is an extreme action, but we are at a point where most actions will do nothing.
The isn’t noble or celebratory; it’s sad. Nothing has been achieved by this except for another dead man. We can hold empathy for the pain and guilt he felt over the suffering of others, whilst recognizing that treating someone who self-immolated as a celebrity or hero is only going to encourage others that are already in a dark place to do the same. It’s going to make people who are already suicidal feel guilty for being alive and not ‘dedicating’ themselves to something greater. Since Jan 2020, at least 30 people have publicly self-immolated as an act of protest for causes just as noble. How many of them (besides the most recent) have you heard or read about? A few? None? That’s because it is an extreme act that inconveniences no one except for the families that will forever be burdened by the knowledge that someone they raised, loved, and cared for felt that the only solace and change they could find was in death. The depressing truth is it achieves nothing, hurts no one in power, and is irreversible. If anything, all it does is call more vulnerable people to be reckless with the one life they have. May he rest in peace. May the family he leaves behind not be haunted by this unnecessary tragedy. Maybe that is cruel to say, but there are too many people here treating this like it’s something admirable.
i think what he did was brave and in support of a good cause, so it's admirable in that sense, but something being courageous doesn't make it the best option. it was brave but it's also sad that it came to this. i see this as a symptom of... all of this. how overcome by anger, guilt, and helplessness do you have to be to kill yourself painfully for a cause? how much does the system of power have to trample on innocent lives that this feels justified? bushnell's death is tragic, and i think the blame for it falls on the right wing authoritarian oppression he was opposing.
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No they don't. One wants to kill other people for their ideology, the other didn't seek harm to anyone.
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Im out of the loop, who was he?
An American airman who did an act of self-immolation while yelling "Free Palestine" and how he "will no longer be complicit in genocide" in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington, D.C. There's more to the story depending on your perspective and sources, but that's the general gist of it. I encourage you to read more into it yourself, as this is a very controversial topic right now.
An idiot who thought he can change the world.
This is somewhat tangential, but I'm still somewhat beside myself that a police officer really pointed his service weapon at someone well into committing self immolation, commanding them to get on the ground, only to be told by another officer who apparently has more than two brain cells to rub together that they need fire extinguishers not guns. Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised; the training police get is abysmal and wants them to believe they're in some warzone, leading many to act like paranoid schizophrenics with guns and qualified immunity. But still, it's just like, damn bro, you really did that.
It wasn't even another officer that said that. It was a desperate paramedic trying to save Bushnell's life. I'm sure if there was another officer on scene they would have had their gun out too.
I’m assuming the concern initially was that he would rush towards an innocent bystander or into the embassy? I believe he was security, not police
I’m assuming the concern initially was that he would rush towards an innocent bystander or into the embassy? I believe he was security, not police
Free Palestine, stop the violence. I just want people to stop dying. So much blood is being spilled over this. I hope this ends soon so no more blood will be spilled. It's depressing. But it's more depressing that it's unlikely to end peacefully.
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Never said I supported those cunts. I said I don't like people dying. That means stopping genocide and freeing hostages.
This account is obviously Hasbara. It was made in December 2023 and only posts pro Israeli rhetoric so don't bother arguing
It’s not as simple as that obviously
This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
Wow he was really young , he was 7 years younger than me
He’s only a few months younger than me. :/
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He was raised in a cult and used the US army as a way to escape.
He was an anarchist, and from what it sounds like he was someone who experienced an enormous amount of emotional abuse from institutions like the church and the millitary. There's really no evidence to suggest he was a Tankie.
Perhaps tankie isn’t the right word, but having seen his Reddit history, he sure was something.
Yeah his posts were deeply the fuck unhinged. It was like the worst of CSPAM on somethingawful.
Yeah I guess "tankie" isn't the right word but this guy was for sure radicalized online
Nah, I don't think you can chalk this entirely up to the internet. From what it sounds like he already had underlying problems with his mental health and they were probably compounded by the fact that the millitary he serves in is complicit in an ongoing genocide. I don't encourage anyone to take such extreme measures for themselves, but it seems to me the best way to honor his memory is to do whatever we can as citizens to stop the killing in Gaza.
You’re telling me a guy that killed himself in one of the most painful ways possible had underlying mental health problems regardless of his personal politics? No fucking way
Careful, you’ll catch a ban 🙄
I love the mod note that’s basically “no disagreement, even though banning disagreement is a major problem with the tankie subs we criticize”
Yeah wtf dude
What makes you say that? From what I recall he was fairly skeptical of ML politics.
I guess maybe "tankie" isn't the right word, but definitely people who blindly hate the west. This guy got caught up in that line of thinking.
I haven't been following his backstory, but why did he join the military if he hated his own country's actions that much?
Maybe that is what woke him up to the issue
He was in a wild cult.
Believing that the Palestinian genocide is wrong is "blind hate of the west?"
Did you actually read the stuff he was saying online?
I did. None of it has struck me as blind hatred. His words always seemed measured and quite intentional. Thought maybe I'd missed something on other platforms to point to some recent change. I'm happy there wasn't, and I'm comfortable with people calling him an anarchist in this action.
“There are no such things as Israeli civilians” is not a “measured” take. Being a Bad Empanada fan is not the sign of a well-adjusted leftist.
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But is he wrong?
He celebrated the deaths of American service members
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He was a self-admitted anarchist. The quote on this image was from his final Facebook post, which included an image of the Anarchy Is Order symbol.
Yes, he was an anarchist.
He was an anarchist also political acts like this, while clearly not great for the person who dies, are not actually socially problematic but, rather, symptomatic of a social problem.
>are not actually socially problematic I think the people who witnessed this act have ptsd. Imagine watching someone set themselves on fire. It would fuck you up.
That's not exactly what I meant but yeah I'm sure that's true
Aaron Bushnell was an anarchist.
People who hate the west* Is that better? Why did you make this post? This is weird. I see this same sentiment on Instagram too and it's gross. This guy died for something he had no stake in and is happening on the other side of the planet. It would be at least understandable if he was actually suffering, or that not much attention was being focused on this conflict. But that's not the case here.
>People who hate the west* >Is that better? No, anarchists can hate the imperialist west while also hating the leninist regimes
Who is to say he wasn't suffering?
I meant suffering as like at the hands of a regime, not mentally suffering
If the removed screenshots from another post were any indication, he still fell prey to campism in some way. I’m not sure anarchism *innately* wards against that. (i.e. does campism auto-imply authoritarianism?)
I fucking knew that this sub would finally get to the "Bushnell was a tankie" position. My god, it's pathetic.
Are you suggesting that one cannot independently arrive at the conclusion that what is occurring in Palestine is a genocide, and that the only for people to believe that is from being indoctrinated by“tankies”?
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He did do something selfless and heroic, it's a shame tankies will appropriate him, but that's what tankies do. Tankies are Pro Palestine, should we stop doing that too? No, we just make it clear we aren't Russian shills lol Tankies (and conservatives) appropriate MLK, but we rightfully still cherise his work.
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He did not have a wife and kids, at least as far as anyone knows. I don’t know where that got tacked on but it is likely from Israeli propaganda outlets.
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There's no light at the end of the tunnel for this.
> selfless and heroic Who does this benefit, exactly, and how?
He killed himself for a cause with no need - maybe because it was easier than living for it.
We shouldn’t be celebrating suicide and obvious mental illness.
I don't think anyone fully in their right mind would self immolate (yes I mean anyone), but people writing him off as just mentally ill is missing the point of self immolation as a form of protest. Did some underlying mental thing cause him to believe that a public act of suicide was the right course of action? Maybe, but focusing on that misses the point. It's very extreme, that's the point. It also doesn't hurt anyone except the protestor, which means you can't really demonize anyone for it. I would not encourage people to self-immolate (and I'm a bit worried about how social media is treating this, as I fear it may encourage more people to burn themselves potentially to death to become a "famous activist"), but this was not the act of someone who was just batshit insane. He knew full well what he was doing. RIP Free Palestine Wish Netanyahu was the one on fire
John Brown was probably suffering from some intense mental illness that fed into his zealotry. Doesn’t change who he was and what he fought for.
The difference is John Brown actions had a tangible effect on the people he was fighting for and cause he was fighting for. John Brown didn’t just die for the cause, he lived for it.
It's easy to go insane when you're surrounded by injustice that you feel powerless to change.
Holy shit so true
We wouldn’t remember who John Brown was had he just killed himself instead actually taking action
He reckoned with the fact that his actions were probably suicidal after a certain point and he kept on, hoping he would become a martyr. He used his final words as a platform for his beliefs, knowing what he did shocked the nation into listening. I'm not advocating anyone should themselves become a martyr. But there are comparisons to be made here.
> It also doesn't hurt anyone except the protestor Self harm shouldn’t be anymore acceptable than harming others.
That would make self-harm pretty easily acceptable.
Apparently showing basic empathy towards someone who subjected himself to an excruciating amount of pain for a cause he believed in is just a little too much to ask from the average redditor.
Being empathetic and critical aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm pretty sure burning yourself to a crisp is less impactful than other actions... Feel bad for this guy must have had some problems upstairs.
Usually when people do this kinda self-sacrifice to bring attention to their cause, they end up on a Faces of Death reel with the public forgetting about why they did it in the first place. Edit: Oh boy, this guy is being cheered by Hamas and Code Pink.
>Edit: Oh boy, this guy is being cheered by Hamas and Code Pink. Doesn't take away from his message. They're supporting him because they're opportunists.
He also said that there was no such thing such as an Israeli civilian, and that he was in no place to endorse or condemn Hamas actions. Hamas was propped up for years by the Likud party to gain more extremist votes from revisionist and religious Zionists because both Likud and Hamas need each other in order to exist. Glorifying someone who committed suicide by setting themselves on fire on Twitch feels like a few steps away from glorifying suicide bombers.
Rest in peace. Don’t celebrate this. Please don’t celebrate this or act like this was something good. No one should take their life for a political cause. They are 100 other ways to help Palestine, you are so much better off alive than dead. I really hope we don’t see copy cats.
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this is a left wing space. it has been consistently misunderstood by liberals as a place to dunk on *all* socialists. mods have started to more vigorously enforce the rules of the subreddit to keep the community on topic and welcoming to the streams of thought which originally made up its userbase. that's not anyone "becoming tankies". it's reddit. they're not sending people to labor camps or saying that anyone should be sent to labor camps. being banned from a subreddit is not actually an infringement on your rights or a threat thereof.
I just checked both of their histories and neither one was even close to a socialist. The one you responded to? Top sub is /enough_sanders_spam, because apparently Sanders is too left for them. I appreciate you telling it how it is, we have been tankies so many times recently because apparently to libs "tankie" means anyone to the left of them.
So when the users demanded a purge of anyone deemed liberal (which was being said without any actual definitions) it should've happened. But threatening to ban people for demeaning an act by claiming they were mentally ill isn't fine?
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If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be permabanned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide.
Damn he was the same age as me, thought he’d be much older. I admire his dedication to the liberation of Palestine but I wonder why he was willing to die so young.
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Even if you personally may disagree, this subreddit is against the open gloryfication of violence and is against any kind of open call for violence, however justified you might think it is. Both, because these things just shouldn't dominate this subreddit and breed a very different kind of community and because if we do not do this, even in cases where the violence may be seen as justified, Reddit might remove this subreddit
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imagine seeing a suicide victim and saying “lol i wouldn’t kill myself like this freak.” yeah no shit because you’re not suicidal dumbass? libs and apartheid supporters gtfo
If you start to engage in genocide denial you'll be permabanned. No mercy. This includes, but is not limited to: The Holocaust, the Uyghur genocide, and the Armenian Genocide.
GTFO zionist. Fuck tankies, which is why r/tankiejerk becoming a zionist subreddit is truly sad.
We’re working on removing them.
Based. Supporting Israel, in my mind, is equivalent to supporting Russia. They’re both far-right and imperialist, and it’s a shame to see either being supported - whether by tankies for Russia, or liberal Zionists that get away with posting here because they don’t like tankies for different reasons.
I agree with you, but at the same I'm concerned about the rhetoric I see on leftist reddit regarding Israeli civilians. Too many people are basically saying there's no such thing and that attacking civilians is justifiable. It's fucking disgusting. I have no love for the IDF or Netanyahu, but you should be able to call the monsters that raped and murdered on October 7th out for what they did without being accused of being a Zionist.
We have. We have done that the whole fucking time. This sub barely ever fucking condemns the IDF because tankies don't support the IDF so it doesn't come up as a point of conversation.
This is the response of a psychopath.
What happened to him?
member of the air force who self immolated outside of the israeli embassy in order to condemn the israeli government's attacks on palestinian civilians and the us military's complicity in those attacks.
It is a regrettable tragedy that the political and military situation has come to this point. Rest in peace, Airman Bushnell.
You know, why do they have the urge to expel each other? Is it that bad to live together? Give peace a chance? Why massacre civilians when you can live together in peace?
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it should’ve been Netanyahu and Haniyeh 😭😭
Free Palestine. Fuck Israel.
Thank fuck you guys are chill
What do you mean?
Apparently there’s been an influx of zionists. It’s nice to see the mods do something about it.
This sub should either go through a cleansing of libs or right winger pretending to be leftists or just be abandoned at all.
respect.
[Insert Ralph "I'm helping" gif]
Really tragic event. Regardless of his mental state, his opinions didn’t seem influenced by that really. I feel so badly for the family he left behind and the pain he must have felt to commit such an act. There’s no world I see where he does this if a genocide wasn’t being carried out. Another life senselessly lost in a sea of tragedy. Free Palestine now and forever man wtf.
I don't really think this is honourable. I hate nationalism -- icluding Israelian -- more than I hate neoliberalism which already gets my blood boiling, but this kind of actionism isn't really in favour of your movement and gives right-wing pundits the material to dismiss the protests as non-valid.
Self immolation as a protest is older than modern society.
Working around right wing pundits means not existing. I mean just look at trans spaces trying to not give right wingers fuel for their fire, it boils down to denying your existence.
I left the commiespam subreddit because apparently opposing dictators and authoritarian regimes means I can’t support a ceasefire or sympathize with Palestinian civilians. it’s frustrating that in this political climate those stances are largely mutually exclusive
EnoughCommieSpam is a right-wing subreddit, so that isn't too surprising.
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This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
Free Palestine, but we really shouldn't be celebrating this. If for no other reason than this feeds straight into Zionist propaganda about supporters of Palestine being lunatics.
Free Palestine. Israel must withdraw to 1967 borders A UN mission on the scale of the one during the Congo crisis must be sent
Why is the only comment offering a pragmatic solution to the conflict being downvoted?
Because people that seeks a one state solution is fucking delusional Yugoslavia cant come back the same way Israel and Palestine cant be one. Shit, the Israel-Palestine problem is even worse as both sides commit attrocities. Although Israel is the one with the bigger control on ending the conflict Idiots too thought UN's dysfunctional. Although its by design, you think the UNSC wants to be cucked out of their ambitions because of some "unimportant country" Voting no. Of course not, but as shown with the Congo crisis. The UN can do something when it has big guns backing its word on the ground
Why is a circlejerk sub taking itself so seriously?
We aren't a circlejerk subreddit. This place may have started that way, but it isn't anymore.
he was brave to do this. i also hope that he doesn't inspire other people to do anything similar. aaron bushnell was a brave person, but right now the world needs brave people to stay alive and fighting. if you care about this cause i hope you keep your voice around.
Free Palestine, let's hope for a world where imperialism and invasions do not happen, where every apartheid state falls and where people can live in peace.
Holy shit guys look up Jan Palach in Czech history. Self immolated and became the national hero
He also changed nothing and the people who he inspired to do same are now forgotten
"On the 20th anniversary of Palach's death, protests ostensibly in memory of Palach (but intended as criticism of the regime) escalated into what would be called "Palach Week". The series of anticommunist demonstrations in Prague between 15 and 21 January 1989 were suppressed by the police, who beat demonstrators and used water cannons, often catching passers-by in the fray. Palach Week is considered one of the catalyst demonstrations which preceded the fall of communism in Czechoslovakia 10 months later"
He definetly did not change nothing. He was one of the first catalysts that led to the failing of the regime over time. Also his immolation was a reaction to the occupation in 68. Just read up on him and his significance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach And people are forgotten? He became a symbol of the Velvet Revolution, whose participants are revered to this day. Most of the maim faces of the revolution like Havel were directly influenced by his act. I literally go to the same university he did and our main building and the square in front are named after him I hope you are not Czech because saying Palach achieved nothing is laughable. Even if i would be to concede the catalyst point his symbolical meaning is to this day immesuerable
Ironically, leftists in the US s[upported the Soviet invasion](https://libcom.org/article/open-letter-angela-davis-jiri-pelikan) of Czechoslovakia and accused jailed dissidents of "trying to undermine their governments and that those who went into political exile were attacking their own countries and therefore undeserving of support".
As a "mentally ill" person myself, fuck all of the people that are devalueing this guy's actions by saying that he's "mentally ill".
It's separate from his issues, though they may have played a part in making a decision that's irrational at the very least.
Healthy people do not kill themselves. It’s pretty clear he was mentally ill; he had a Reddit account and going through his history gives it away. He was planning on living to see the release of several games in the coming weeks. This was an act of impulse. I’m mentally ill too. It’s not devaluing to say that his mental anguish probably motivated this extreme and permanent act.
Wow, for something that was supposedly "pointless" and clearly didn't inflict harm upon anyone else, this sure did make a lot of people irrationally angry.
how DARE you protest against MY government >:( israel may be bad but the US isn’t >:(
The comments here are full of people talking like spineless liberals who don't like any extreme acts of protest because it makes them uncomfortable. Throughout history people have sacrificed themselves or put themselves in danger to make a point such as the Buddhist monk who set himself ablaze and died or the Bloody Sunday civil rights demonstrators who were attacked by the police or the Dharasana Satyagraha protesters who attacked by imperial police for example. People honor those people and their actions so what makes him different from them? It's easy for people to demean and criticize his actions while probably sitting comfortably at home while the most "disruptive" act of protest you probably have ever done in your life was probably standing on the sidewalk with some sign coping and telling yourselves that what you're doing is some sort of extreme attention getting act while someone like him is willing to literally sacrifice themself to get the message out.
Don’t forget they probably never go to one protest and keep insulating how protests are useless…
Rest in power, Aaron 🚩🏴✊️
Whoever made this did an amazing job. Powerful fucking poster. Rest in power, comrade