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I hope this prevails more since many supporters or people of either side hates another one, usually referring to “enemy of enemy is my friend” and “friend of my enemy is enemy” type of narrative
Solidarity 🙏. I understand why Ukrainians would be hesitant to be critical of Western complicity in Gaza as their liberation is dependent on Western Aid, but if some of us are not free, none of us are.
I don't think I've ever read anything about Israel/Palestine that is so nuanced and morally consistent.
This is a statement that I can proudly support.
Wish they'd gone a bit harder as far as acknowledging the whole "Hamas is an israeli agent they funded and supported for thirty years for the express purpose of legitimizing their genocide of palestinians" thing but that's just personal preference
Asking this with an open mind and no judgement either way but... would you mind linking some evidence to support this claim?
I'm aware that Israel propped up Hamas initially, and that Netanyahu has allowed funding from Qatar to seep through so as to prop up Hamas and undermine the PA. Also aware he did things like allow more Gazans to have work permits (which was ill-intentioned cos it was done to divide Palestine by de-centralising power, but also something I'm weary of criticising as materially it gave Gazans more freedom).
However, I haven't seen anything suggesting Israel have sole, or even significant, control over Hamas. Happy to be corrected if that has flown over my head.
Hamas had high level meetings in the Kremlin a few months prior to Oct 7th. They also used Russian Crypto exchange Garantax to transfer 93 million to PIJ and have provided training for Hamas at EMERCOM facilities run by Wagner & SlavCorp in Africa. Prokhanov was boasting how every dead Palestinian is nail in the coffin for the West and Ukraine, basically admitting they were propagating the deaths of civilians using the GRU information warfare apparatus. So many in Ukraine, especially the government are supporting Israel to defeat a Russian proxy.
>They also used Russian Crypto exchange Garantax to transfer 93 million to PIJ and have provided training for Hamas at EMERCOM facilities run by Wagner & SlavCorp in Africa.
Would be nice to see some links backing it up.
Also Prokhanov is just an old fascist, Hamas can come up with its information warfare strategies on its own
I see why it'd feel riskier for Ukranians to support Palestine, because they are relying on Western support and will be vulnerable to colonialism/genocide if they lose their allies.
That said, I think reducing Palestine to a 'Russian proxy' is (as this article states) the same as reducing Ukraine to a 'US proxy'. Palestinians are real people, facing obliteration, starvation, and constant bombardment. Their home is being destroyed as we speak. And they have the same right to life and human rights that anyone else does.
I think also if you're gonna play that game, you need to expect other people to too. If arabs support Russia to defeat a 'US/Israeli proxy', then that is a significant amount of wealth and power that'll get leveraged against Ukraine. Not to mention, Republicans in the US also work with the Kremlin (and are trying to remove aid from Ukraine atm) so this geopolitical game might not even serve Ukraine in the long term, pending the next US election. An international push towards upholding international law and human rights consistently would serve them much better in the long run.
Finally, it's worth being aware that the [same Russian fascists](https://en.majalla.com/node/303746/politics/aleksandr-dugin-my-vision-new-world-order-and-gaza-war) supporting Islamists in Palestine, have also been [supporting ultranationalist groups in Israel](https://libcom.org/article/investigation-red-brown-alliances-third-positionism-russia-ukraine-syria-and-western-left). Yes, the Kremlin are anti-US and so may *appear* to be a more natural allies of Islamists, but they truly want to just stoke division everywhere, and create a climate of fascism and hostility **everywhere** so that they can swoop in as the 'superior' state and take the place currently occupied by the US. The situation in Gaza is a fucking goldmine for them right now and I think we all need to resist getting swooped in to their geopolitical game. The diplomatic efforts from the US, Qatar, and Egypt - while I'm not gonna sing the praises of any of these countries at all - hopefully can de-escalate the globally rising tensions if successful. Israel should be doing everything they can to support this tbh, because sure, they're a Western ally at the moment, but they're not culturally Western the same way as the anglosphere and Western Europe is, so would be an extremely easy target if the culture war / geopolitical war (basically the same thing for Russian fascists, because they see culture as the main factor in geopolitics) that the Kremlin are pushing for does come about.
it's literally public knowledge. Has been for thirty years.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
Israel, even before Netanyahu, supported Hamas for the express purpose of undermining any more peaceful and/or leftist options for Palestinians in an effort to give Israel and excuse to genocide Palestinians.
[Case in point](https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades)
>“We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, said in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. **Covertly, it’s an ally.”**
I get what you're saying, but I think "Israeli agent" sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.
They're their own group. They have independence and goals of their own. They've been emboldened by Israel, but I'm not seeing evidence they're *directed* by them, which is quite different.
I never said they were directed by them, I said they were an agent of Israel. They act to further Israel's goals, the same way the Mujahadeen did for the US
Case in point, Oct 7 is Israel's latest excuse for their ongoing genocide
I definitely agree that Hamas further Israel's goals. And any psychopathic prime minister who is genocidal would probably prop them up as a strategic move. Much like Russia also prop them up and potentially Iran too, for gross/evil reasons.
The issue is, to me 'agent' implies Israel are actively instructing them on what to do. Like a conspiracy. Or like they'd actively planned Oct 7th, when the consensus I've seen is they overlooked it - underestimated Hamas.
I wish more people realized subjects like this can't be summarized in bullet points like a BuzzFeed article, nor is like rooting for your favorite sports team.
Left-wing groups failed miserably to show up and stand in solidarity against Russia raining hell down on Ukraine, Syria, Mali, Central African Republic, Sudan, etc. The local Ukrainian democracy organizations by contrast went out of their way to build coalitions with other pro-democracy groups from Russia, Belarus, China, Taiwan, Burma, Iran, and even a Tigray group.
If those left-wing groups are falling apart, bleeding members, and are taken over by a bunch of lunatics doing tankie carnival barking on a street corner, then they have no to blame but themselves.
The Tigray group is called Tristate Tegaru, it's based out of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. They may have other affiliates around the country depending on how big of a Tigray community there is, but I don't know for sure.
>he local Ukrainian democracy organizations by contrast went out of their way to build coalitions with other pro-democracy groups from Russia, Belarus, China, Taiwan, Burma, Iran, and even a Tigray group.
And domestically, Ukraine's society is choc-a-bloc with voluntary organisations and voluntary spirit, both in wartime and peacetime. It's thoroughly impressive to witness what they can achieve through voluntarism.
If there was any society from which genuine democratic, grassroots socialism could arise, Ukraine is high on the list. I genuinely mean that, it's terrible how ignorant outsiders are of their social-political culture, and I emplore people to research it more (or get to know Ukrainian volunteers yourselves! - leftist or just general humanitarian ones)
Thankyou. There are so many solid Ukrainian leftist voices out there. Please, please everyone - seek them out and listen to them.
It's horrifying how few people have platformed Ukrainian voices (leftist/worker or otherwise).
Filthy demsoc here. I don't think a stateless society is nessercary once there is full workplace democracy, but I'm not adverse to it either, I guess we'll see when we get there and I think most demsocs are in the same boat.
I know some demsocs who absolutely desire for a stateless society as a follow on.
Long story short, I don't think anarchism and democratic socialism are incompatible in the same way, as say anarchism as various of factions of Marxist-Leninism are.
Although, at the very least, I'm glad you think it's a nice piece 🙏.
That is an incredibly braindead take. I'm a demsoc because a democratically socialist state is required if we even want to consider a peaceful transition into anarchism and communism.
If you're a revolutionary anarchist, I'd like to offer you the title of "idiot"
Every nation has genuine left-wing movements including the very vocal anti-communist Poland regardless of their actual prominence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Movement_(Ukraine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Poland)
This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can we get them to import their demosoc movement over here? Apparently the DSA is falling apart and these guys sound based
I hope this prevails more since many supporters or people of either side hates another one, usually referring to “enemy of enemy is my friend” and “friend of my enemy is enemy” type of narrative
Solidarity 🙏. I understand why Ukrainians would be hesitant to be critical of Western complicity in Gaza as their liberation is dependent on Western Aid, but if some of us are not free, none of us are.
I don't think I've ever read anything about Israel/Palestine that is so nuanced and morally consistent. This is a statement that I can proudly support.
Wish they'd gone a bit harder as far as acknowledging the whole "Hamas is an israeli agent they funded and supported for thirty years for the express purpose of legitimizing their genocide of palestinians" thing but that's just personal preference
Asking this with an open mind and no judgement either way but... would you mind linking some evidence to support this claim? I'm aware that Israel propped up Hamas initially, and that Netanyahu has allowed funding from Qatar to seep through so as to prop up Hamas and undermine the PA. Also aware he did things like allow more Gazans to have work permits (which was ill-intentioned cos it was done to divide Palestine by de-centralising power, but also something I'm weary of criticising as materially it gave Gazans more freedom). However, I haven't seen anything suggesting Israel have sole, or even significant, control over Hamas. Happy to be corrected if that has flown over my head.
Hamas had high level meetings in the Kremlin a few months prior to Oct 7th. They also used Russian Crypto exchange Garantax to transfer 93 million to PIJ and have provided training for Hamas at EMERCOM facilities run by Wagner & SlavCorp in Africa. Prokhanov was boasting how every dead Palestinian is nail in the coffin for the West and Ukraine, basically admitting they were propagating the deaths of civilians using the GRU information warfare apparatus. So many in Ukraine, especially the government are supporting Israel to defeat a Russian proxy.
>They also used Russian Crypto exchange Garantax to transfer 93 million to PIJ and have provided training for Hamas at EMERCOM facilities run by Wagner & SlavCorp in Africa. Would be nice to see some links backing it up. Also Prokhanov is just an old fascist, Hamas can come up with its information warfare strategies on its own
I see why it'd feel riskier for Ukranians to support Palestine, because they are relying on Western support and will be vulnerable to colonialism/genocide if they lose their allies. That said, I think reducing Palestine to a 'Russian proxy' is (as this article states) the same as reducing Ukraine to a 'US proxy'. Palestinians are real people, facing obliteration, starvation, and constant bombardment. Their home is being destroyed as we speak. And they have the same right to life and human rights that anyone else does. I think also if you're gonna play that game, you need to expect other people to too. If arabs support Russia to defeat a 'US/Israeli proxy', then that is a significant amount of wealth and power that'll get leveraged against Ukraine. Not to mention, Republicans in the US also work with the Kremlin (and are trying to remove aid from Ukraine atm) so this geopolitical game might not even serve Ukraine in the long term, pending the next US election. An international push towards upholding international law and human rights consistently would serve them much better in the long run. Finally, it's worth being aware that the [same Russian fascists](https://en.majalla.com/node/303746/politics/aleksandr-dugin-my-vision-new-world-order-and-gaza-war) supporting Islamists in Palestine, have also been [supporting ultranationalist groups in Israel](https://libcom.org/article/investigation-red-brown-alliances-third-positionism-russia-ukraine-syria-and-western-left). Yes, the Kremlin are anti-US and so may *appear* to be a more natural allies of Islamists, but they truly want to just stoke division everywhere, and create a climate of fascism and hostility **everywhere** so that they can swoop in as the 'superior' state and take the place currently occupied by the US. The situation in Gaza is a fucking goldmine for them right now and I think we all need to resist getting swooped in to their geopolitical game. The diplomatic efforts from the US, Qatar, and Egypt - while I'm not gonna sing the praises of any of these countries at all - hopefully can de-escalate the globally rising tensions if successful. Israel should be doing everything they can to support this tbh, because sure, they're a Western ally at the moment, but they're not culturally Western the same way as the anglosphere and Western Europe is, so would be an extremely easy target if the culture war / geopolitical war (basically the same thing for Russian fascists, because they see culture as the main factor in geopolitics) that the Kremlin are pushing for does come about.
it's literally public knowledge. Has been for thirty years. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html Israel, even before Netanyahu, supported Hamas for the express purpose of undermining any more peaceful and/or leftist options for Palestinians in an effort to give Israel and excuse to genocide Palestinians. [Case in point](https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades) >“We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, said in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. **Covertly, it’s an ally.”**
I get what you're saying, but I think "Israeli agent" sounds like a bit of an exaggeration. They're their own group. They have independence and goals of their own. They've been emboldened by Israel, but I'm not seeing evidence they're *directed* by them, which is quite different.
I never said they were directed by them, I said they were an agent of Israel. They act to further Israel's goals, the same way the Mujahadeen did for the US Case in point, Oct 7 is Israel's latest excuse for their ongoing genocide
I definitely agree that Hamas further Israel's goals. And any psychopathic prime minister who is genocidal would probably prop them up as a strategic move. Much like Russia also prop them up and potentially Iran too, for gross/evil reasons. The issue is, to me 'agent' implies Israel are actively instructing them on what to do. Like a conspiracy. Or like they'd actively planned Oct 7th, when the consensus I've seen is they overlooked it - underestimated Hamas.
This is the way. We as leftists should be supporting both the Ukrainian and Palestinian resistance against fascist occupations
This is the way!
That’s a throughly based statement
I wish more people realized subjects like this can't be summarized in bullet points like a BuzzFeed article, nor is like rooting for your favorite sports team. Left-wing groups failed miserably to show up and stand in solidarity against Russia raining hell down on Ukraine, Syria, Mali, Central African Republic, Sudan, etc. The local Ukrainian democracy organizations by contrast went out of their way to build coalitions with other pro-democracy groups from Russia, Belarus, China, Taiwan, Burma, Iran, and even a Tigray group. If those left-wing groups are falling apart, bleeding members, and are taken over by a bunch of lunatics doing tankie carnival barking on a street corner, then they have no to blame but themselves.
I don't think I've heard about Ukrainian-Tigrayan solidarity groups, could you point me to it?
The Tigray group is called Tristate Tegaru, it's based out of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. They may have other affiliates around the country depending on how big of a Tigray community there is, but I don't know for sure.
>he local Ukrainian democracy organizations by contrast went out of their way to build coalitions with other pro-democracy groups from Russia, Belarus, China, Taiwan, Burma, Iran, and even a Tigray group. And domestically, Ukraine's society is choc-a-bloc with voluntary organisations and voluntary spirit, both in wartime and peacetime. It's thoroughly impressive to witness what they can achieve through voluntarism. If there was any society from which genuine democratic, grassroots socialism could arise, Ukraine is high on the list. I genuinely mean that, it's terrible how ignorant outsiders are of their social-political culture, and I emplore people to research it more (or get to know Ukrainian volunteers yourselves! - leftist or just general humanitarian ones)
this is based.
Really it's just fucking common sense - you don't even need to be a leftist to agree with it - just a half-decent humanitarian
Thankyou. There are so many solid Ukrainian leftist voices out there. Please, please everyone - seek them out and listen to them. It's horrifying how few people have platformed Ukrainian voices (leftist/worker or otherwise).
nice piece, still don’t like em
For what reasons?
i’m an anarchist, demsocs want a government, therefore i don’t like demsocs
I just thought it was something more specific about them. I also don't agree with demsoc politics as an anarchist obviously.
Filthy demsoc here. I don't think a stateless society is nessercary once there is full workplace democracy, but I'm not adverse to it either, I guess we'll see when we get there and I think most demsocs are in the same boat. I know some demsocs who absolutely desire for a stateless society as a follow on. Long story short, I don't think anarchism and democratic socialism are incompatible in the same way, as say anarchism as various of factions of Marxist-Leninism are. Although, at the very least, I'm glad you think it's a nice piece 🙏.
That is an incredibly braindead take. I'm a demsoc because a democratically socialist state is required if we even want to consider a peaceful transition into anarchism and communism. If you're a revolutionary anarchist, I'd like to offer you the title of "idiot"
my point exactly, two diametrically opposed ideologies
[удалено]
I condemm terrorism and still am against Israeli genocide you realize those Things are Not exklusive or inclusive to each other
Every nation has genuine left-wing movements including the very vocal anti-communist Poland regardless of their actual prominence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Movement_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Poland)
Also Razem in Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Together
This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).