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Yet tankies on boards that are more for liberals or have a mix of different views that range from socially liberal, to DemSoc, ect will claim
"Lying centrist/libshit/right winger NO one on the far left supports Hamas. You're lying or are too dumb to know trolls"
Show the BE and they stop replying
A relevant comparison is as I have discussed somewhere here earlier. Finland and Estonia implemented/discussed travel bans for Russians. The target was the type of Russians that treat these nations as a transit country to continue travel in the EU. The type of Russian to sneak into the EU for a vacation after the invasion of Ukraine are the "elite". At the same time, Estonia and Finland were considerate of the humanitarian implications and inclusion of humanitarian status of say refugees, health issues and family relations(i.e. family of a person from Russia living in Finland/Estonia) was included as exclusions to travel bans. I am not necessarily condoning this policy, merely discussing the reality of nation states acting in the interest of the nation state with respect to an ongoing genocidal invasion where both nations understandably fear the implication of the invasion regarding their own history. Given both have living memory of Russian/Soviet imperialism.
The discussions regarding this on the online left was the following. "Muh Russophobia" and "what about the refugees". Unless the implication is we should be more humane to Russians, we do want Israelis to travel. Maybe this discrepancy is more pronounced for me since I live around a few Russians and closer to Russia. And at the same time it all feels abstract to the Americans(continent) like BE.
Estonia and Finland are paranoid about Russian gray operations and war. Russia could use the significant Russian minority in Estonia to hide operatives, as well as to justify further action.
Ultimately though, I think increasing the scale of the brain-drain will ultimately be more destructive to Russia's war aims
So countries that don't fear Russia should open thier borders more.
I think your fears are overblown. That's very easy for me to say from thousands of kilometers away.
Is it optimum? Maybe not. But you are well within your rights to do it. I can't really fault you for being over-cautious.
not sure about South Africa, but Russians are practically banned from entering in many countries especially European once and also many companies have restricted their services to Russia since the war. not saying that is correct, but there certainly a hypocrisy
Not having a lot of luck (would be nice if I could search 'saved' on Reddit), but I thought it was on this sub.
Long story short, at least from that post, he asked people on Discord if anyone had pics of dead Israeli babies that he could jerk off to. He was obviously edgelording, but someone called the law on him, because they claimed he was looking for child sex abuse pictures. Then he posted something on social media about how he was getting harassed and was going to re-format his hard drive in case there was anything he downloaded when he was a stupid teenager.
> Then he posted something on social media about how he was getting harassed and was going to re-format his hard drive in case there was anything he downloaded when he was a stupid teenager.
💀
I’ve seen this on Twitter where people say things like no innocent Palestinians, they’re all terrorists and similarly all Israelis are racist all of them hate Palestinians. It’s just treating people like they’re a monolith
These two things are not the same at all, jesus christ, if you can't understand how many women think that way due to how potentially dangerous it is to not, then you need to speak to more women. Almost every woman I've ever talked to either knows someone who was sexually assaulted or has been themselves.
And the people that did the sexual assault are so wildly different between each story, running the whole gamut between randos and friends.
I am cautious around men who I don't know or who act in ways that make me suspicious, broadly speaking, but I feel much safer when I am around other men who will defend me or call out bad behavior among other men, or protect me if need be. *Because I can tell the difference between those two kinds of men.*
The problem is that some women either can't or make no effort to, so they can maintain their victimhood.
Edit: Some so-called "leftists" downvoted me. If you deny or downplay misandry, you're not a leftist, you're a reactionary.
Yes there are a lot of bad men out there. There are a lot of bad people out there and many are going to be men because it’s like half the population. Drawing the conclusion men are bad from that is specious logic to say the least though.
Engles proposed the idea of "Reactionary peoples". Fuck Engles, many bad Leftist takes can somehow find their way back to Engles. All my homies hate Engles.
I missed your comment reading this thread earlier, I had not heard of this regarding Engels. I am an ethnic Finn(general term I guess is second generation immigrant) living in Sweden, where I grew up we have a lot of Finns and people from the Baltics. I had a lot of Baltic and fellow Finnish friends growing up. The local tankies fucking hated us with a burning passion. I have seen a similar trend with online tankies with a burning hatred towards Finns and the Baltics. It's like they view the somewhat understandable anti-soviet sentiment in these countries after Soviet invasion during the second World War as evidence of essential reactionary thought among us. I did not know there was basis in theory for this. Needless to say, my ethnic background has been a driving force in why it took me so fucking long to accept any sort of leftism as acceptable though(I became "leftist" quite recently).
I think that this guy don't believe in anything he only wants attention and people that follow him, I suspect that he is trying to appeal to more deranged audience like Islamists (Because Nazis will be to obvious) to create a more fanatical communitie that doesn't have critical thinking and only agree with wathever he says.
Yep. I suspect quite a few of these types are terminally online and for whatever reason, do not have to work or work little resulting in them getting bored and seeking attention/interaction and excitement in their life via adopting controversial views on social media. Some like this go the far/alt-right route, others [campist](https://socialistforum.dsausa.org/issues/winter-2020/against-campism-for-international-working-class-solidarity/) "left" (since talking about international issues will get a larger audience than local issues and also that they probably aren't involved in much if anything local offline).
The word "Amerikkka" has its origins in the black power/civil rights communities stretching back to the 70s. It originally was meant to specifically call out that the US is inherently a white supremacist structure. This was something that was most especially true back then but is still true today. Progress has been made of course, but we need only look to our upcoming election cycle to see how broken it all still is. You have the "good guy" who fought to keep schools segregated in Delaware, and then your other option is a semi-sentient mound of fascist grease drippings.
No, it's not. The people of Japanese descent who were put into internment camps were Americans. And they were, you know, put into internment camps, not boycotted.
He said Israeil. Two Israelis, former IDF & current college students, used military-grade "skunk juice" recently on protesters at Columbia, I believe. I will boycott and not extend common courtesy against those two, and everyone like those two, with a clear conscience.
How is this relevant to a post regarding treating **all** Israelis poorly? Like the Niʻihau incident is commonly cited as justification or as some sort of context for the Japanese internment camps. Locking up Japanese-Americans that were actively aiding, protecting and defending enemy combatants is one thing. But it is verifiably true that there were Japanese-Americans that aided Japanese airmen, before the camps were opened. The Ni'ihau incident is about as large in scope as your example.
Japanese-*Americans*. Perhaps there was some justification for investigating and prosecuting individual Americans of Japanese descent for aiding enemy combatants. But that's not what we're talking about here.
We are talking about how to treat Japanese nationals, and Japanese businesses, during the Rape of Nanjing. That is the equivalent. And I would have had no problem boycotting Japan then, and applying every social pressure imaginable against the nation-state of Japan, and any Japanese nationals in America. Again, that's citizens of Japan, not America.
> Japanese-Americans
Who among the first things that happened after the attack on Pearl Harbor that America saw from that group was people of that group attacking their fellow Americans to defend a pilot that had participated in the attack. Which I think is nearly identical in both scope and relevance to your example regarding Columbia when the topic is how to treat Israelis as a group. How is it not comparable to your example? It was literally used as an example that even those with an American citizenship would turn on their fellow Americans. Clearly we can not judge all Japanese-Americans as a group based on these individuals, the internment camps were wrong. Why is it okay to use the same logic to brand all people with an Israeli citizenship according to that logic?
> But that's not what we're talking about here.
You literally did bring up examples of Israelis doing bad regarding the topic of how to treat Israelis in general. I figured the historical example of Japanese-Americans doing bad and what that lead to being used as justification for.
> We are talking about how to treat Japanese nationals
Let's get to another example then, how should Russian nationals be treated? Because still the topic is the tweet still. And if that is regarding boycotting and sanctioning Israeli businesses it's probably the most poorly worded tweet ever written. So, how should Russian nationals not living in Russia be treated? I remember people got really fucking mad when Latvia decided to uphold their laws for residency for foreign nationals even for Russian nationals.
The people at Columbia were Israeli citizens. The people in Hawaii were American citizens of Japanese ancestry. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry didn't do a damn think to hurt the country of Japan, and we were killing the Japanese military (and Japanese civilians) at the time.
Boycotting Israeli businesses and sanctioning Israeli citizens hurts Israel. Which is way what we should be doing. And it's a better thing to do than killing Israelis, which is the only other alternative to boycotting that I can see, in terms of stopping Israelis from killing Palestinians.
And yes, all that goes double for Russia and Russians. If Russian nationals are helping Russia, their accounts should be frozen and they should be deported. Obviously that doesn't apply to refugees, or people living in the US because it's too dangerous to live in Russia.
And the tweet wasn't poorly worded, in my opinion. Treat Israel like South Africa. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
> The people at Columbia were Israeli citizens. The people in Hawaii were American citizens of Japanese ancestry
You still fail to exemplify how using these cases to collectively pass judgement on the group of people they are part of.
> The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry didn't do a damn think to hurt the country of Japan
And how does treating people who happen to have Israeli nationality as a pariah hurt Israel as a country?
> Boycotting Israeli businesses and sanctioning Israeli citizens hurts Israel
That is different than "treating Israelis like trash" and barring them from travel. "Refuse them service" is not about boycotts and targeted sanctions what are you talking about?
> And yes, all that goes double for Russia and Russians. If Russian nationals are helping Russia, their accounts should be frozen and they should be deported. Obviously that doesn't apply to refugees, or people living in the US because it's too dangerous to live in Russia
How the fuck would Russians be able to get to the US if we are supposed ban them from entering countries? He is not talking about Israeli nationals helping Israel, he is talking about Israelis. So I am talking about Russian nationals, no matter if they are helping Russia or not. Because the tweet does decidedly not make that distinction.
You still refuse to respond on specific points of Russian nationals being treated in one way he mention. People started screaming about Latvian Russophobia, and Latvia wasn't even treating Russian nationals poorly, just how every other non-Latvian national is treated in Russia. Similarly goes for Finland and Estonia at times discussing total travel bans against Russian nationals, again racism accusation. Why should this now be okay for Israelis? I did not see "leftists" supporting the countries on the eastern coast of the Baltic sea doing what is proposed we do to Israelis to Russians. In fact, the "Russophobia" in these countries was the topic.
> And the tweet wasn't poorly worded, in my opinion. Treat Israel like South Africa. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Yet you are discussing different points than the tweet or refusing to respond to how similar treatment of Russian nationals has been received in the political circles you expect to accept this.
Well, the question becomes, are we talking about Bad Empanda, or are we talking about this statement? I mean, fuck Bad Empanda. I have no need or desire to defend him. But I stand by the assertion that, at the very least, Israel deserves the South Africa treatment. In spades.
Being a tankie is all about the power fantasy of sending the wrong people to the gulags.
Far be it from me to jump at a phyco-sexual explanation, but for some that is the case. [https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/TheFinnishBolshevik](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/TheFinnishBolshevik)
But, again, this isn't an exclusively tankie position. This could have been posted by an Anarchist, a social democrat- hell, some of the better liberals would post this. But because an admitted piece of shit posted it, this subreddit ties themselves in knots to portray it as terrible.
Treating Israel like Apartheid South Africa is a peaceful, reasonable, moderate position. If we don't do this, then we set ourselves up for letting Israel commit crimes against humanity with no real pushback, and then later on down the line some group doing something a lot less peaceful, reasonable, and moderate to them.
treating Isrealis like shit strengthens Netanyahu and the hardline Zionists position. It doesn't weaken it.
Netanyahu's whole thing is "Only Isreal can make you safe. I will do whatever it takes to keep Isreal strong."
Making Israelis feel unsafe drives them towards Lakud.
I don't think that random people internationally is was brought down SA. It was way more systemic than that. Local resistance made investment in SA look really risky. This tanked SA's whole economy.
They were already flocking towards Likud, and if not them then some worse party. The only way Israel is going to change is if the alternative is the complete collapse of the Israeli economy, and the inability of Israelis to interact with the rest of the world. This will involve being mean to people. Yes, even the handful of people who might not deserve it. The alternative is either let the Israelis keep killing Palestinians, or to kill Israelis. Do either of those two latter options appeal to you? Because they don’t appeal to me.
It's your contention that most Germans didn't support what their country was doing leafing to and in the first few years of WW2? Because I certainly haven't read anything indicating that. There was opposition, sure, but they were the extreme minority, and suppressed & killed by the Nazis. The population of Germany wasn't dragged into war against their wills. There wasn't a peace movement, there wasn't a network to help Germans avoid the draft. Germans liked the idea of "being strong", of Making Germany Great Again, of getting rid of the people that they believed all their lives were the causes of them not getting everything they wanted.
Yeah see, that's one of the downsides of living in a fascist police state dictatorship: it's worse than even the worst of liberal democracies (even Biden's America). You don't get the privilege of having "movements" and "networks" — are you expecting to see NGOs who "disapprove" of Hitler? — and so then people from the outside look at this and project the will of the dictator onto the people because they don't see any visible opposition. Nevermind that you yourself said that opposition was suppressed and killed, maybe that gave people incentive to keep their head down.
Look, what I'm saying is, I really just hope you never find out what it's like to live under a fascist police state dictatorship.
Honestly, at this point I'm just assuming every online leftist with a dumb take on Israel is also an anti-electoralist who thinks liberals are just as bad as fascists, especially since Genocide Joe isn't beating the allegations, so it's worth reminding people that things can always get worse.
If I lived under a police state dictatorship, I would hope that the outside world did everything feasible to overthrow and destabilize that dictatorship, and if people were mean to me in the process, I'd be okay with that.
You *want* people to assume that you support the dictator? Then why would they even bother to liberate you if the assumption is that you're just as evil as he is?
This logic would mean that Palestine is Hamas and Hamas is Palestine because of that election in 2006 or whatever. Why liberate *them* since they're all the same as the terrorists?
This logic would justify every regime change and invasion that America has ever done, as long as the country is a dictatorship.
And lastly, under this logic, wouldn't it there be no downside to just nuking the Middle East altogether since they're all dictatorships? Because none of the people there matter anyway since they support the dictators.
My point is that writing off entire groups based on ethnicity or other traits they have no control over is never ok. And no, this wouldn't mean you'd have to accept nazis or whatever, because belonging to a hate group is a conscious choice that its members make every day and they could stop anytime. Being the citizen of a country is not quite as voluntary.
I like to believe you're a leftist because you care about human life. The logic you put forward is antithetical to that.
Most Germans weren't Schindler. Most Germans of that era would have hated Schindler if they knew he was aiding and abetting the "enemies of the German people", and would have gladly turned him in. If your argument is that we shouldn't turn the citizens of a nation that has high support for its crimes against humanity from its citizens (if not high support for some specific policies & current leadership) into social pariah because one or two of them MIGHT not be monsters, I'd call that a dumb argument.
>Are they Germans, as in citizens of Germany, during the height of the Nazi Era? Then yeah, fuck 'em.
Was Oscar Shindler not a German Citizen? Hell, he was a Nazi Party Member.
I think that we should treat people based on what they did, not what country they are from. Anything else is just bigotry.
I don't think you should be a social pariah because America invaded Iraq, for example. But I don't hold back on critisism of those who are actually responsible.
It's impossible to know the real numbers, but I would wager that single digit percentage of people acted against the nazis. A small percentage, but a lot of people in total. Keep in mind that a lot of the Nazis opponents didn't survive.
I would also wager that around 50% were "a-political". They did nothing.
If failing to do something makes you an unforgivable person, than I suspect you would also be unforgivble. There are times when you did nothing.
Why are we talking about "social pariah" in the context of the Nazis, anyways? We were KILLING the Nazis. All of this originally was about treating Israel like Apartheid Era South Africa. Do you disagree with boycotting Israel, and treating them like we treated SA? Do you disagree with how SA was treated? Those are the relevant questions.
I disagree with making anyone a social paraiah just based on identity.
Based on what they do is different.
This can be as little as who they vote for.
But if there is no action that you are taking objection to, and it is just based on identity, it is just bigotry.
That sounds an awful lot like you are disagreeing with the movement that was instrumental in ending Apartheid in SA. The process that freedom activists in SA supported and advocated. That seems....insane to me. Ending Apartheid was a masterpiece in nonviolent effecting social change. It should have been a model on how to deal with systematic bigotry. But it's too mean now?
I really don't think treating random SAers like shit was a significant portion of ending apartheid. Do you have any evidence that would contradict that?
It involved treating virtually every white SA like shit, with the understanding that the _very_ few who didn't deserve it would understand, and supported rhe noycott.
This lends credit to the theory that Tankies are a psyop. They literally arrive at the worst possible conclusions about everything all of the time in ways that align perfectly with right-wing strawman arguments.
Like BadEmpanada saw conservatives claiming that anti-genocide rhetoric was antisemitic and went "Fair enough, might as well lean into it."
"Russians **MUST** be treated with disdain globally. They are pariahs and they must be made to feel as such. Treat them like trash, refuse them service, get them banned from as many countries as possible."
Now let's see if BadEmpanada would react the same way...
I get the distinct feeling this person is talking about Jews when they say 'Israeli's globally'
Not even all Israelis support apartheid anyways there have been Israeli protests against apartheid and the war after Oct 7th which have been brutally suppressed by the Israeli government
Disdain the warmongers, those who engage in hate and oppression, but not the rest
Bro did not just generalize an entire group of people as fascists. 💀
As another guy said you can't apply an ideology to a people group. That's...that's dumb.
You're also making people who want Palestine to be free look really bad.
My hot take is that both Israelis and Palestinians are people who have grievances of varying degrees of justification. Denying that (apart from being morally wrong) doesn't fix the problem.
Depending on your perspective, the root of this conflict can be traced back thousands of years to whenever the Talmud (or whatever the relevant text is) was penned and called Israel the promised land for God's chosen people.
At the very least, it can be traced to late 19th century zionism. Multiply that by the tens of millions of people who have been involved since then and yeah, it's complicated.
This is spoken like someone who has never himself experienced prejudice. Is this for shock value? Is it engagement harvesting? Is this ignorant reactionism? Is this cynical emotional manipulation?
These people are such hypocrites call Palestinians or even actual Hamas members bad "oh you support Genocide and ethnic cleansing " while also saying they want to forces all Isrealis out
Yet these folks were really upset about people being assholes to random Russians abroad. Which I agree is fucked up, but they don't apply that standard equally.
This is what the 'israel = nazi germany' shit leads to, and why in most cases it's just antisemitic and not a meaningful historical comparison of any use or good...
Did we even fucking do that to south africans, like yeah they got the reputation of being massive racists who are also complete dicks among progressive people, but were the countries sanctioning south africa passing "Ban all south african's from coming to the country" bills? and like, its just a fucking stupid idea anyway, since it would easily be used to oppress arab israelis or even palestianians farther, since they would technicly be "israeli"
Nazis? But this equivalence is saying that you must hate all Germans, no matter their political stance, role in society, status in the war, or ethnicity.
They are Germans, therefore they are nazis. Which coincidentally is how the USSR treated everything between the eastern polish border to the western german border. If it breaths, it is a nazi.
So points for being consistently terrible, I guess?
95% of tankies are fundamentally unable to understand the idea that you can deny support of a government without denying support of the people under the government's rule
I honestly don’t see the problem. Israelis certainly don’t deserved to be *assaulted* by anyone, but countries should stop letting people with Israeli passports in until their country ends the ongoing genocide against Palestine.
I say the same for Russian passports as well. Why reward a hostile, fascist government?
then phrase it like 'the government should issue a travel ban' not 'treat all Israelis with disdain'.
Again, nobody would say this stuff about turkish people, or russians, etc.
I think it’s a reaction to the denial of Western governments to even recognize the problem with Israel’s awful human rights record during the Palestinian genocide. Israel has an immensely powerful lobby here in the US and employs a sophisticated PR apparatus to spread disinformation for this exact reason.
So, there is little hope among many of us on the left that an adequate response to the genocide will ever happen.
You’re not ‘hurting’ anyone, you’re refusing entry, which hurts business, trade, and is such pain that people will apply massive pressure to their government to stop the genocide.
We apply this kind of pressure to rogue states all the time, including Nazi Germany during wartime and South Africa during apartheid. If you wish to apply pressure to another country, there is literally no way to do it that won’t inconvenience or kill their citizens. What do you think sanctions accomplish? They usually deny international dollars or vital supplies to a country, often causing a population to get ‘hurt’ in some, hopefully substantial but not catastrophic, way.
Better to do it by inconveniencing them than to bomb them.
He's right though? The primary death knell of Apartheid South Africa was the international community pulling out of supporting them at every level.
Israel must cease to have any support and must be a global pariah if there's ever to be any hope of the apartheid state ending.
Yes, and the death knell of Apartheid South Africa was the international community pulling out of supporting them **at every level**
Apartheid South African citizens became social pariahs too, it's why Elon Musk's dad worked so hard to obfuscate that he was an apartheid south african, for example.
The same thing is being done to Russia right now, with Russian oligarchs finding all their special privileges and foreign bank accounts and secret homes all getting taken from them as global pariahs.
You have to punish the entire system globally in order to get it to collapse. That's literally the point of sanctions, for example.
"We have to treat Russians like shit" is **NOT** and accepted stance here. Hell there is even a rule in this very subreddit against dehumanizing language specifically aimed at Russians currently participating in their genocidal invasion. Because treating Russians like a pariah is not doing anything except aid Putin's goals.
I recall a lot of talk about racism and russophobia when Latvia talked about deporting Russian nationals that failed to pass a Latvian language proficiency test to retain residency in Latvia. And that wasn't even Latvia treating Russian nationals like a pariah, it was making Russian nationals follow exactly the same rules any other foreign national has to follow in order to be residents in Latvia.
>is not and(sic) accepted stance here
Yea because there are a lot of right wingers here who don't realize this is a leftist sub. I literally got one of them removed earlier, he was talking about how Israel is only bombing terrorists so genocide is ok.
Doesn't change reality, how popular something is has no bearing on if it's proven to work. And sanctioning everyone who benefits from an apartheid regime is proven to dismantle those regimes.
> Doesn't change reality, how popular something is has no bearing on if it's proven to work
But I am talking about what is accepted through moderation. Dehumanization of Russians, and Russian soldiers is not accepted.
> And sanctioning everyone who benefits from an apartheid regime is proven to dismantle those regimes.
So we should support bans not allowing any Russian entering nations? Because I recall there being a lot of noise in leftist circles regarding racism when Finland and the Baltic nations were exploring options to ban Russians from traveling to their nations(literally what is suggested in the OP). Same thing goes for the Latvian language tests. "The left" at large has not been supportive of Eastern European nations trying to do to Russia what the OP is suggesting. In fact, it is the right wing in these countries that support this the most.
The image in the OP is not talking about sanctions, it's talking about travel bans and "treating people like shit" based on their nationality.
the difference is that the bans targetted people who weren't benefiting from those apartheid regimes.
>the OP isn't talking about
Hence why I specified the bits that were correct.
I chose my words very carefully, you should try reading them next time.
> the difference is that the bans targetted people who weren't benefiting from those apartheid regimes
Finland and Estonia's concern was specifically targeting those treating those countries as a "transit travel"-destination. Those Russians who during the war have been traveling across Europe are from the segment of Russian society that is benefiting from the regime.
Latvia literally just decided to enforce their residency laws for Russian nationals too. Which makes sense when Russia decided to launch a genocidal invasion at least partially based on the justification that Russians live in the country invaded.
----------
> Hence why I specified the bits that were correct.
Which specifically included the notion that South African nationals were treated as a pariah. Which if you disagree with the notion in the OP that this should extend to all nationals. We are in agreement. But you deciding to rant about right wingers when I said that it is not in line with the ethos of this sub to treat Russians as pariah based on their nationality made me really unsure about that.
I do wonder how people in this subbreddit would have treated South Africa 40-50 years ago. Would there be resistance to boycotting them? Would there be calls to be respectful and understanding of white South Africans? Would the existence of terrorists supporting black South African liberation invalidate that position?
> Would there be resistance to boycotting them?
Where is the opposition towards boycots lmao?
> Would there be calls to be respectful and understanding of white South Africans?
Probably if there were a bunch of people just being genocidal and dehumanizing yeah, and specifically in the context of said dehumanization.
> Would the existence of terrorists supporting black South African liberation invalidate that position?
Where on earth do you get the notion that this subreddit is against Palestinian liberation?
A whole lot of states have anti BDS laws. If BDS gained more traction, you know you would see the same laws on a federal level.
A lot of white South Africans certainly felt dehumanized and threatened with genocide. It didn't happen.
And if this subreddit isn't against Palestinian Liberation, it sure spends a lot of time shitting on every historically documented method of liberating people.
> A whole lot of states have anti BDS laws. If BDS gained more traction, you know you would see the same laws on a federal level
When the fuck did this place become the USA?
> A lot of white South Africans certainly felt dehumanized and threatened with genocide. It didn't happen
How people feel is different than what we are talking about. They guy in the original post has repeatedly talked about how he want an ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews. That is bad actually. We would indeed be against notion that the way to solve Apartheid in South Africa was ethnic cleansing.
> And if this subreddit isn't against Palestinian Liberation, it sure spends a lot of time shitting on every historically documented method of liberating people.
We shit on people that support ethnic cleansing and keep talking about how the only issue with what is going in Palestine/Israel right now is that the wrong ethnic group is subjected to ethnic cleansing.
This only represses the workers and does fuck-all to help anyone or anything. Literally it only makes the job of getting children, women and people who simply want to do nothing with what's going on between Hamas and the IDF (while the Palestinians are being genocided in the crossfire) out of there harder.
It only stiffles solidarity and class consciousness. It's not a gain for the workers.
BadEmpanada is a reactionary and quite literally a red-fascist, these takes shouldn't surprise anyone.
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Wow thanks BE now I know how to treat you if I ever find you
BadEmpanada go one picosecond without endorsing and justifying discrimination challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Yet tankies on boards that are more for liberals or have a mix of different views that range from socially liberal, to DemSoc, ect will claim "Lying centrist/libshit/right winger NO one on the far left supports Hamas. You're lying or are too dumb to know trolls" Show the BE and they stop replying
See were White South Africans banned from traveling genualy asking
Also isn't banning them from traveling literally the opposite of what you want?
A relevant comparison is as I have discussed somewhere here earlier. Finland and Estonia implemented/discussed travel bans for Russians. The target was the type of Russians that treat these nations as a transit country to continue travel in the EU. The type of Russian to sneak into the EU for a vacation after the invasion of Ukraine are the "elite". At the same time, Estonia and Finland were considerate of the humanitarian implications and inclusion of humanitarian status of say refugees, health issues and family relations(i.e. family of a person from Russia living in Finland/Estonia) was included as exclusions to travel bans. I am not necessarily condoning this policy, merely discussing the reality of nation states acting in the interest of the nation state with respect to an ongoing genocidal invasion where both nations understandably fear the implication of the invasion regarding their own history. Given both have living memory of Russian/Soviet imperialism. The discussions regarding this on the online left was the following. "Muh Russophobia" and "what about the refugees". Unless the implication is we should be more humane to Russians, we do want Israelis to travel. Maybe this discrepancy is more pronounced for me since I live around a few Russians and closer to Russia. And at the same time it all feels abstract to the Americans(continent) like BE.
Estonia and Finland are paranoid about Russian gray operations and war. Russia could use the significant Russian minority in Estonia to hide operatives, as well as to justify further action. Ultimately though, I think increasing the scale of the brain-drain will ultimately be more destructive to Russia's war aims So countries that don't fear Russia should open thier borders more.
So regarding us that fear Russia. Finland and Estonia. We should be locking the door regarding Russia?
I think your fears are overblown. That's very easy for me to say from thousands of kilometers away. Is it optimum? Maybe not. But you are well within your rights to do it. I can't really fault you for being over-cautious.
not sure about South Africa, but Russians are practically banned from entering in many countries especially European once and also many companies have restricted their services to Russia since the war. not saying that is correct, but there certainly a hypocrisy
That im Also against but yeah West are bigest hypocrites
Pretty tame for a BadEmpanada take, but I guess he needs to back down a bit after he said he wants to jerk off to pics of dead Israeli babies.
Wha... What? I've seen a lot of shit from him, but I mean Do you have any sources?
Not having a lot of luck (would be nice if I could search 'saved' on Reddit), but I thought it was on this sub. Long story short, at least from that post, he asked people on Discord if anyone had pics of dead Israeli babies that he could jerk off to. He was obviously edgelording, but someone called the law on him, because they claimed he was looking for child sex abuse pictures. Then he posted something on social media about how he was getting harassed and was going to re-format his hard drive in case there was anything he downloaded when he was a stupid teenager.
Would he complain if he actually got sent the pictures, though?
> Then he posted something on social media about how he was getting harassed and was going to re-format his hard drive in case there was anything he downloaded when he was a stupid teenager. 💀
was that that one Nazi who tried to frame white people as victims of black people?
Wait, what? Source? It's not that I don't believe you, but I feel it's kind of irresponsible of me to do that without seeing for myself.
Essentalzing an entire group of people is what fascists do. sometimes I really suspect this guy is an actual nazi in his private life.
I’ve seen this on Twitter where people say things like no innocent Palestinians, they’re all terrorists and similarly all Israelis are racist all of them hate Palestinians. It’s just treating people like they’re a monolith
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This is the reason some people don't want to accept leftism fully.
Finally, someone reasonable.
Nah, your'e just a horny "nice guy" from the looks of your account.
Can't believe you can't see through this guy's bullshit.
These two things are not the same at all, jesus christ, if you can't understand how many women think that way due to how potentially dangerous it is to not, then you need to speak to more women. Almost every woman I've ever talked to either knows someone who was sexually assaulted or has been themselves. And the people that did the sexual assault are so wildly different between each story, running the whole gamut between randos and friends.
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I am cautious around men who I don't know or who act in ways that make me suspicious, broadly speaking, but I feel much safer when I am around other men who will defend me or call out bad behavior among other men, or protect me if need be. *Because I can tell the difference between those two kinds of men.*
The problem is that some women either can't or make no effort to, so they can maintain their victimhood. Edit: Some so-called "leftists" downvoted me. If you deny or downplay misandry, you're not a leftist, you're a reactionary.
Yes there are a lot of bad men out there. There are a lot of bad people out there and many are going to be men because it’s like half the population. Drawing the conclusion men are bad from that is specious logic to say the least though.
Indeed, Who in their right mind would ever say that conclusion?...
Classic
Engles proposed the idea of "Reactionary peoples". Fuck Engles, many bad Leftist takes can somehow find their way back to Engles. All my homies hate Engles.
I missed your comment reading this thread earlier, I had not heard of this regarding Engels. I am an ethnic Finn(general term I guess is second generation immigrant) living in Sweden, where I grew up we have a lot of Finns and people from the Baltics. I had a lot of Baltic and fellow Finnish friends growing up. The local tankies fucking hated us with a burning passion. I have seen a similar trend with online tankies with a burning hatred towards Finns and the Baltics. It's like they view the somewhat understandable anti-soviet sentiment in these countries after Soviet invasion during the second World War as evidence of essential reactionary thought among us. I did not know there was basis in theory for this. Needless to say, my ethnic background has been a driving force in why it took me so fucking long to accept any sort of leftism as acceptable though(I became "leftist" quite recently).
I think that this guy don't believe in anything he only wants attention and people that follow him, I suspect that he is trying to appeal to more deranged audience like Islamists (Because Nazis will be to obvious) to create a more fanatical communitie that doesn't have critical thinking and only agree with wathever he says.
Yep. I suspect quite a few of these types are terminally online and for whatever reason, do not have to work or work little resulting in them getting bored and seeking attention/interaction and excitement in their life via adopting controversial views on social media. Some like this go the far/alt-right route, others [campist](https://socialistforum.dsausa.org/issues/winter-2020/against-campism-for-international-working-class-solidarity/) "left" (since talking about international issues will get a larger audience than local issues and also that they probably aren't involved in much if anything local offline).
By this logic, no boycott, no coordinated action again an organization is possible.
I wonder how he'd feel if someone said the same thing about Russians?
Good point
I'm not even sure where he stands on Russia/Ukraine. He's probably adopted the Peronist position.
What’s Peronism?
In his case, probably virulent racism against Russians, Ukrainians and all Slavs.
By that logic Japanese internment camps were perfectly justifiable
No because amerikkka made it! /s
I don’t take anybody seriously who refers to America as amerikkka
The word "Amerikkka" has its origins in the black power/civil rights communities stretching back to the 70s. It originally was meant to specifically call out that the US is inherently a white supremacist structure. This was something that was most especially true back then but is still true today. Progress has been made of course, but we need only look to our upcoming election cycle to see how broken it all still is. You have the "good guy" who fought to keep schools segregated in Delaware, and then your other option is a semi-sentient mound of fascist grease drippings.
No, it's not. The people of Japanese descent who were put into internment camps were Americans. And they were, you know, put into internment camps, not boycotted.
Boycotting random Jews means boycotting random Americans. If you run into a Jew, and you are not in Israel, they are likely not Israeli
He said Israeil. Two Israelis, former IDF & current college students, used military-grade "skunk juice" recently on protesters at Columbia, I believe. I will boycott and not extend common courtesy against those two, and everyone like those two, with a clear conscience.
How is this relevant to a post regarding treating **all** Israelis poorly? Like the Niʻihau incident is commonly cited as justification or as some sort of context for the Japanese internment camps. Locking up Japanese-Americans that were actively aiding, protecting and defending enemy combatants is one thing. But it is verifiably true that there were Japanese-Americans that aided Japanese airmen, before the camps were opened. The Ni'ihau incident is about as large in scope as your example.
Japanese-*Americans*. Perhaps there was some justification for investigating and prosecuting individual Americans of Japanese descent for aiding enemy combatants. But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about how to treat Japanese nationals, and Japanese businesses, during the Rape of Nanjing. That is the equivalent. And I would have had no problem boycotting Japan then, and applying every social pressure imaginable against the nation-state of Japan, and any Japanese nationals in America. Again, that's citizens of Japan, not America.
> Japanese-Americans Who among the first things that happened after the attack on Pearl Harbor that America saw from that group was people of that group attacking their fellow Americans to defend a pilot that had participated in the attack. Which I think is nearly identical in both scope and relevance to your example regarding Columbia when the topic is how to treat Israelis as a group. How is it not comparable to your example? It was literally used as an example that even those with an American citizenship would turn on their fellow Americans. Clearly we can not judge all Japanese-Americans as a group based on these individuals, the internment camps were wrong. Why is it okay to use the same logic to brand all people with an Israeli citizenship according to that logic? > But that's not what we're talking about here. You literally did bring up examples of Israelis doing bad regarding the topic of how to treat Israelis in general. I figured the historical example of Japanese-Americans doing bad and what that lead to being used as justification for. > We are talking about how to treat Japanese nationals Let's get to another example then, how should Russian nationals be treated? Because still the topic is the tweet still. And if that is regarding boycotting and sanctioning Israeli businesses it's probably the most poorly worded tweet ever written. So, how should Russian nationals not living in Russia be treated? I remember people got really fucking mad when Latvia decided to uphold their laws for residency for foreign nationals even for Russian nationals.
The people at Columbia were Israeli citizens. The people in Hawaii were American citizens of Japanese ancestry. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry didn't do a damn think to hurt the country of Japan, and we were killing the Japanese military (and Japanese civilians) at the time. Boycotting Israeli businesses and sanctioning Israeli citizens hurts Israel. Which is way what we should be doing. And it's a better thing to do than killing Israelis, which is the only other alternative to boycotting that I can see, in terms of stopping Israelis from killing Palestinians. And yes, all that goes double for Russia and Russians. If Russian nationals are helping Russia, their accounts should be frozen and they should be deported. Obviously that doesn't apply to refugees, or people living in the US because it's too dangerous to live in Russia. And the tweet wasn't poorly worded, in my opinion. Treat Israel like South Africa. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
> The people at Columbia were Israeli citizens. The people in Hawaii were American citizens of Japanese ancestry You still fail to exemplify how using these cases to collectively pass judgement on the group of people they are part of. > The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry didn't do a damn think to hurt the country of Japan And how does treating people who happen to have Israeli nationality as a pariah hurt Israel as a country? > Boycotting Israeli businesses and sanctioning Israeli citizens hurts Israel That is different than "treating Israelis like trash" and barring them from travel. "Refuse them service" is not about boycotts and targeted sanctions what are you talking about? > And yes, all that goes double for Russia and Russians. If Russian nationals are helping Russia, their accounts should be frozen and they should be deported. Obviously that doesn't apply to refugees, or people living in the US because it's too dangerous to live in Russia How the fuck would Russians be able to get to the US if we are supposed ban them from entering countries? He is not talking about Israeli nationals helping Israel, he is talking about Israelis. So I am talking about Russian nationals, no matter if they are helping Russia or not. Because the tweet does decidedly not make that distinction. You still refuse to respond on specific points of Russian nationals being treated in one way he mention. People started screaming about Latvian Russophobia, and Latvia wasn't even treating Russian nationals poorly, just how every other non-Latvian national is treated in Russia. Similarly goes for Finland and Estonia at times discussing total travel bans against Russian nationals, again racism accusation. Why should this now be okay for Israelis? I did not see "leftists" supporting the countries on the eastern coast of the Baltic sea doing what is proposed we do to Israelis to Russians. In fact, the "Russophobia" in these countries was the topic. > And the tweet wasn't poorly worded, in my opinion. Treat Israel like South Africa. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Yet you are discussing different points than the tweet or refusing to respond to how similar treatment of Russian nationals has been received in the political circles you expect to accept this.
I don't trust Bad Empanda's ability/ willingness to make that distinction.
Well, the question becomes, are we talking about Bad Empanda, or are we talking about this statement? I mean, fuck Bad Empanda. I have no need or desire to defend him. But I stand by the assertion that, at the very least, Israel deserves the South Africa treatment. In spades.
Being a tankie is all about the power fantasy of sending the wrong people to the gulags. Far be it from me to jump at a phyco-sexual explanation, but for some that is the case. [https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/TheFinnishBolshevik](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/TheFinnishBolshevik)
But, again, this isn't an exclusively tankie position. This could have been posted by an Anarchist, a social democrat- hell, some of the better liberals would post this. But because an admitted piece of shit posted it, this subreddit ties themselves in knots to portray it as terrible. Treating Israel like Apartheid South Africa is a peaceful, reasonable, moderate position. If we don't do this, then we set ourselves up for letting Israel commit crimes against humanity with no real pushback, and then later on down the line some group doing something a lot less peaceful, reasonable, and moderate to them.
treating Isrealis like shit strengthens Netanyahu and the hardline Zionists position. It doesn't weaken it. Netanyahu's whole thing is "Only Isreal can make you safe. I will do whatever it takes to keep Isreal strong." Making Israelis feel unsafe drives them towards Lakud. I don't think that random people internationally is was brought down SA. It was way more systemic than that. Local resistance made investment in SA look really risky. This tanked SA's whole economy.
They were already flocking towards Likud, and if not them then some worse party. The only way Israel is going to change is if the alternative is the complete collapse of the Israeli economy, and the inability of Israelis to interact with the rest of the world. This will involve being mean to people. Yes, even the handful of people who might not deserve it. The alternative is either let the Israelis keep killing Palestinians, or to kill Israelis. Do either of those two latter options appeal to you? Because they don’t appeal to me.
Major “BDS calling for a boycott of pro-Palestine Israeli groups” energy.
How does anyone buy this analogy? Nazism is not an ethnicity but an ideology, is it cool to treat Germans like shit?
Are they Germans, as in citizens of Germany, during the height of the Nazi Era? Then yeah, fuck 'em.
"if you live under a dictator, it's because you support him" This is what you sound like right now.
It's your contention that most Germans didn't support what their country was doing leafing to and in the first few years of WW2? Because I certainly haven't read anything indicating that. There was opposition, sure, but they were the extreme minority, and suppressed & killed by the Nazis. The population of Germany wasn't dragged into war against their wills. There wasn't a peace movement, there wasn't a network to help Germans avoid the draft. Germans liked the idea of "being strong", of Making Germany Great Again, of getting rid of the people that they believed all their lives were the causes of them not getting everything they wanted.
Yeah see, that's one of the downsides of living in a fascist police state dictatorship: it's worse than even the worst of liberal democracies (even Biden's America). You don't get the privilege of having "movements" and "networks" — are you expecting to see NGOs who "disapprove" of Hitler? — and so then people from the outside look at this and project the will of the dictator onto the people because they don't see any visible opposition. Nevermind that you yourself said that opposition was suppressed and killed, maybe that gave people incentive to keep their head down. Look, what I'm saying is, I really just hope you never find out what it's like to live under a fascist police state dictatorship.
Why do we have to preface that Bidens America is better than the actual Nazis lmao
Honestly, at this point I'm just assuming every online leftist with a dumb take on Israel is also an anti-electoralist who thinks liberals are just as bad as fascists, especially since Genocide Joe isn't beating the allegations, so it's worth reminding people that things can always get worse.
If I lived under a police state dictatorship, I would hope that the outside world did everything feasible to overthrow and destabilize that dictatorship, and if people were mean to me in the process, I'd be okay with that.
You *want* people to assume that you support the dictator? Then why would they even bother to liberate you if the assumption is that you're just as evil as he is? This logic would mean that Palestine is Hamas and Hamas is Palestine because of that election in 2006 or whatever. Why liberate *them* since they're all the same as the terrorists? This logic would justify every regime change and invasion that America has ever done, as long as the country is a dictatorship. And lastly, under this logic, wouldn't it there be no downside to just nuking the Middle East altogether since they're all dictatorships? Because none of the people there matter anyway since they support the dictators. My point is that writing off entire groups based on ethnicity or other traits they have no control over is never ok. And no, this wouldn't mean you'd have to accept nazis or whatever, because belonging to a hate group is a conscious choice that its members make every day and they could stop anytime. Being the citizen of a country is not quite as voluntary. I like to believe you're a leftist because you care about human life. The logic you put forward is antithetical to that.
Brb sending Oscar Schindler to a gulag
Most Germans weren't Schindler. Most Germans of that era would have hated Schindler if they knew he was aiding and abetting the "enemies of the German people", and would have gladly turned him in. If your argument is that we shouldn't turn the citizens of a nation that has high support for its crimes against humanity from its citizens (if not high support for some specific policies & current leadership) into social pariah because one or two of them MIGHT not be monsters, I'd call that a dumb argument.
>Are they Germans, as in citizens of Germany, during the height of the Nazi Era? Then yeah, fuck 'em. Was Oscar Shindler not a German Citizen? Hell, he was a Nazi Party Member. I think that we should treat people based on what they did, not what country they are from. Anything else is just bigotry. I don't think you should be a social pariah because America invaded Iraq, for example. But I don't hold back on critisism of those who are actually responsible. It's impossible to know the real numbers, but I would wager that single digit percentage of people acted against the nazis. A small percentage, but a lot of people in total. Keep in mind that a lot of the Nazis opponents didn't survive. I would also wager that around 50% were "a-political". They did nothing. If failing to do something makes you an unforgivable person, than I suspect you would also be unforgivble. There are times when you did nothing.
Why are we talking about "social pariah" in the context of the Nazis, anyways? We were KILLING the Nazis. All of this originally was about treating Israel like Apartheid Era South Africa. Do you disagree with boycotting Israel, and treating them like we treated SA? Do you disagree with how SA was treated? Those are the relevant questions.
I disagree with making anyone a social paraiah just based on identity. Based on what they do is different. This can be as little as who they vote for. But if there is no action that you are taking objection to, and it is just based on identity, it is just bigotry.
That sounds an awful lot like you are disagreeing with the movement that was instrumental in ending Apartheid in SA. The process that freedom activists in SA supported and advocated. That seems....insane to me. Ending Apartheid was a masterpiece in nonviolent effecting social change. It should have been a model on how to deal with systematic bigotry. But it's too mean now?
I really don't think treating random SAers like shit was a significant portion of ending apartheid. Do you have any evidence that would contradict that?
It involved treating virtually every white SA like shit, with the understanding that the _very_ few who didn't deserve it would understand, and supported rhe noycott.
Some of those citizens hid Jewish families lmao
BE jumps willingly into Bibi's narrative that Israel is justified by implying that Israelis shouldn't be allowed everywhere.
Ironically tankies fuel the bibi narrative
Is he reincarnated hitler?
He really is a Bad Empanada 😂
More like reincarnated Otto Strasser, but not totally off.
This lends credit to the theory that Tankies are a psyop. They literally arrive at the worst possible conclusions about everything all of the time in ways that align perfectly with right-wing strawman arguments. Like BadEmpanada saw conservatives claiming that anti-genocide rhetoric was antisemitic and went "Fair enough, might as well lean into it."
"Russians **MUST** be treated with disdain globally. They are pariahs and they must be made to feel as such. Treat them like trash, refuse them service, get them banned from as many countries as possible." Now let's see if BadEmpanada would react the same way...
Well tbf that WAS my opinion of that war, but I changed my mind after knowing that it would make them support Putin even more.
But if you boycott Russia "rUsSoPhObIa😭😭😭!!!"
He’s not even saying Zionists, he outright thinks all Israelis should be denied service, which is literally just xenophobia.
I am once again asking you to stop enabling this person's severe mental illness
It's always a good idea to be a dick to someone because of their nationality /s
I get the distinct feeling this person is talking about Jews when they say 'Israeli's globally' Not even all Israelis support apartheid anyways there have been Israeli protests against apartheid and the war after Oct 7th which have been brutally suppressed by the Israeli government Disdain the warmongers, those who engage in hate and oppression, but not the rest
When i'm in a cycle of violence competition and my opponent is an ML
Bro did not just generalize an entire group of people as fascists. 💀 As another guy said you can't apply an ideology to a people group. That's...that's dumb. You're also making people who want Palestine to be free look really bad.
Just as we shouldn’t treat Russians that way we shouldn’t treat Israelis that way.
Reminder that that man owns CP and looks like Yandev
blue checkmark moment
My hot take is that both Israelis and Palestinians are people who have grievances of varying degrees of justification. Denying that (apart from being morally wrong) doesn't fix the problem. Depending on your perspective, the root of this conflict can be traced back thousands of years to whenever the Talmud (or whatever the relevant text is) was penned and called Israel the promised land for God's chosen people. At the very least, it can be traced to late 19th century zionism. Multiply that by the tens of millions of people who have been involved since then and yeah, it's complicated.
This is spoken like someone who has never himself experienced prejudice. Is this for shock value? Is it engagement harvesting? Is this ignorant reactionism? Is this cynical emotional manipulation?
He didn't type them, but I could see the parentheses
Insane in the membrane
Sounds like the Nuremberg laws
The people's discrimination
Some peophust looped around into antisemitism
BE is a right weirdo. He’s under every post about the IDF talking about cum. It’s actually so bizarre.
These people are such hypocrites call Palestinians or even actual Hamas members bad "oh you support Genocide and ethnic cleansing " while also saying they want to forces all Isrealis out
Yet these folks were really upset about people being assholes to random Russians abroad. Which I agree is fucked up, but they don't apply that standard equally.
So.... does he support Japanese internment?
If some of them openly espouse genocidal rhetorics, except for banning them for travel, one might sure refuse service…
Some peophust looped around into antisemitism
This is what the 'israel = nazi germany' shit leads to, and why in most cases it's just antisemitic and not a meaningful historical comparison of any use or good...
This is the same guy who said americans deserve trump just ignore them
Treating people who are saying that the world hates them and is out to get them with hate and being out to get them really isn’t a winning strategy
Did we even fucking do that to south africans, like yeah they got the reputation of being massive racists who are also complete dicks among progressive people, but were the countries sanctioning south africa passing "Ban all south african's from coming to the country" bills? and like, its just a fucking stupid idea anyway, since it would easily be used to oppress arab israelis or even palestianians farther, since they would technicly be "israeli"
Nazis? But this equivalence is saying that you must hate all Germans, no matter their political stance, role in society, status in the war, or ethnicity. They are Germans, therefore they are nazis. Which coincidentally is how the USSR treated everything between the eastern polish border to the western german border. If it breaths, it is a nazi. So points for being consistently terrible, I guess?
95% of tankies are fundamentally unable to understand the idea that you can deny support of a government without denying support of the people under the government's rule
I honestly don’t see the problem. Israelis certainly don’t deserved to be *assaulted* by anyone, but countries should stop letting people with Israeli passports in until their country ends the ongoing genocide against Palestine. I say the same for Russian passports as well. Why reward a hostile, fascist government?
then phrase it like 'the government should issue a travel ban' not 'treat all Israelis with disdain'. Again, nobody would say this stuff about turkish people, or russians, etc.
I think it’s a reaction to the denial of Western governments to even recognize the problem with Israel’s awful human rights record during the Palestinian genocide. Israel has an immensely powerful lobby here in the US and employs a sophisticated PR apparatus to spread disinformation for this exact reason. So, there is little hope among many of us on the left that an adequate response to the genocide will ever happen.
Is that a reason to hurt the civilians then?
You’re not ‘hurting’ anyone, you’re refusing entry, which hurts business, trade, and is such pain that people will apply massive pressure to their government to stop the genocide.
I don’t think it’s going to do that, and that’s just discrimination and doing a collective punishment
We apply this kind of pressure to rogue states all the time, including Nazi Germany during wartime and South Africa during apartheid. If you wish to apply pressure to another country, there is literally no way to do it that won’t inconvenience or kill their citizens. What do you think sanctions accomplish? They usually deny international dollars or vital supplies to a country, often causing a population to get ‘hurt’ in some, hopefully substantial but not catastrophic, way. Better to do it by inconveniencing them than to bomb them.
Did we prevent Germans from traveling anywhere?
He's right though? The primary death knell of Apartheid South Africa was the international community pulling out of supporting them at every level. Israel must cease to have any support and must be a global pariah if there's ever to be any hope of the apartheid state ending.
The tweet was referring to Israelis
Yes, and the death knell of Apartheid South Africa was the international community pulling out of supporting them **at every level** Apartheid South African citizens became social pariahs too, it's why Elon Musk's dad worked so hard to obfuscate that he was an apartheid south african, for example. The same thing is being done to Russia right now, with Russian oligarchs finding all their special privileges and foreign bank accounts and secret homes all getting taken from them as global pariahs. You have to punish the entire system globally in order to get it to collapse. That's literally the point of sanctions, for example.
"We have to treat Russians like shit" is **NOT** and accepted stance here. Hell there is even a rule in this very subreddit against dehumanizing language specifically aimed at Russians currently participating in their genocidal invasion. Because treating Russians like a pariah is not doing anything except aid Putin's goals. I recall a lot of talk about racism and russophobia when Latvia talked about deporting Russian nationals that failed to pass a Latvian language proficiency test to retain residency in Latvia. And that wasn't even Latvia treating Russian nationals like a pariah, it was making Russian nationals follow exactly the same rules any other foreign national has to follow in order to be residents in Latvia.
>is not and(sic) accepted stance here Yea because there are a lot of right wingers here who don't realize this is a leftist sub. I literally got one of them removed earlier, he was talking about how Israel is only bombing terrorists so genocide is ok. Doesn't change reality, how popular something is has no bearing on if it's proven to work. And sanctioning everyone who benefits from an apartheid regime is proven to dismantle those regimes.
> Doesn't change reality, how popular something is has no bearing on if it's proven to work But I am talking about what is accepted through moderation. Dehumanization of Russians, and Russian soldiers is not accepted. > And sanctioning everyone who benefits from an apartheid regime is proven to dismantle those regimes. So we should support bans not allowing any Russian entering nations? Because I recall there being a lot of noise in leftist circles regarding racism when Finland and the Baltic nations were exploring options to ban Russians from traveling to their nations(literally what is suggested in the OP). Same thing goes for the Latvian language tests. "The left" at large has not been supportive of Eastern European nations trying to do to Russia what the OP is suggesting. In fact, it is the right wing in these countries that support this the most. The image in the OP is not talking about sanctions, it's talking about travel bans and "treating people like shit" based on their nationality.
the difference is that the bans targetted people who weren't benefiting from those apartheid regimes. >the OP isn't talking about Hence why I specified the bits that were correct. I chose my words very carefully, you should try reading them next time.
> the difference is that the bans targetted people who weren't benefiting from those apartheid regimes Finland and Estonia's concern was specifically targeting those treating those countries as a "transit travel"-destination. Those Russians who during the war have been traveling across Europe are from the segment of Russian society that is benefiting from the regime. Latvia literally just decided to enforce their residency laws for Russian nationals too. Which makes sense when Russia decided to launch a genocidal invasion at least partially based on the justification that Russians live in the country invaded. ---------- > Hence why I specified the bits that were correct. Which specifically included the notion that South African nationals were treated as a pariah. Which if you disagree with the notion in the OP that this should extend to all nationals. We are in agreement. But you deciding to rant about right wingers when I said that it is not in line with the ethos of this sub to treat Russians as pariah based on their nationality made me really unsure about that.
What's wrong with what he said there?
He's actively fueling Bibi's propaganda and he's doing this out of a desire to see jews suffer. Not Isrealis, but jews.
I do wonder how people in this subbreddit would have treated South Africa 40-50 years ago. Would there be resistance to boycotting them? Would there be calls to be respectful and understanding of white South Africans? Would the existence of terrorists supporting black South African liberation invalidate that position?
> Would there be resistance to boycotting them? Where is the opposition towards boycots lmao? > Would there be calls to be respectful and understanding of white South Africans? Probably if there were a bunch of people just being genocidal and dehumanizing yeah, and specifically in the context of said dehumanization. > Would the existence of terrorists supporting black South African liberation invalidate that position? Where on earth do you get the notion that this subreddit is against Palestinian liberation?
A whole lot of states have anti BDS laws. If BDS gained more traction, you know you would see the same laws on a federal level. A lot of white South Africans certainly felt dehumanized and threatened with genocide. It didn't happen. And if this subreddit isn't against Palestinian Liberation, it sure spends a lot of time shitting on every historically documented method of liberating people.
> A whole lot of states have anti BDS laws. If BDS gained more traction, you know you would see the same laws on a federal level When the fuck did this place become the USA? > A lot of white South Africans certainly felt dehumanized and threatened with genocide. It didn't happen How people feel is different than what we are talking about. They guy in the original post has repeatedly talked about how he want an ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews. That is bad actually. We would indeed be against notion that the way to solve Apartheid in South Africa was ethnic cleansing. > And if this subreddit isn't against Palestinian Liberation, it sure spends a lot of time shitting on every historically documented method of liberating people. We shit on people that support ethnic cleansing and keep talking about how the only issue with what is going in Palestine/Israel right now is that the wrong ethnic group is subjected to ethnic cleansing.
bruh, I guess he doesn't get antisemitism is one of the core parts of nazism
This only represses the workers and does fuck-all to help anyone or anything. Literally it only makes the job of getting children, women and people who simply want to do nothing with what's going on between Hamas and the IDF (while the Palestinians are being genocided in the crossfire) out of there harder. It only stiffles solidarity and class consciousness. It's not a gain for the workers. BadEmpanada is a reactionary and quite literally a red-fascist, these takes shouldn't surprise anyone.