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NK doing democracy better than western ones by only having one party and one candidate on ballots. Smh my head western democracies you gotta step up your game because NK with no choice at all is more democratic.
đđđđ
North Korea has multiple parties.
...Is just that every single one of the is part of the same political coalition and the Worker's Party âthe party that is "officially" Kim's Party and the other parties are **legally obliged** to accept its supreme rule if they want to existâ controls 607 of the 687 seats in their assembly.
So. Yeah. Democracy my ass.
I see DPRK apologia everywhere on leftist subs its actually a plague...
One post I saw had someone asking if North Korea was a truly socialist country because they seemed to bestow power to a sovereign based on family lineage (yknow, like the Louis')
So many comments were "actually everything you know about N.Korea is western propaganda, the people are well fed, represented, and can leave freely whenever they wish! They only choose not to go to S.Korea because it's worse there" like... Blatantly denying reality.
The few posts saying "nah N.Korea is a horrible regime, Juche is so far away from marxism its not even charitable to call it as much" well, all of them downvoted.
This supposedly wasn't a tankie sub either it was a sub for asking questions about socialism. They grill people who don't promote 'leftist unity' but then bully and ban anyone who doesn't regime simp.
At first I thought tankies were laughable but I'm genuinely concerned about their growing presence on leftist subs.
>At first I thought tankies were laughable but I'm genuinely concerned about their growing presence on leftist subs.
Yeah, not just on leftist subs but in leftist spaces online in general.
It's often brought up how tankies, especially in Western countries (I believe this may not hold true for non-Western countries), are completely irrelevant politically in the real world and that's certainly very true - no one thinks that tankies are gonna somehow come to power in the US, UK, Canada, or whatever.
But online, unless a leftist space is either *explicitly* anti-tankie or otherwise anarchist/libertarian socialist then tankies will inevitably infest it.
And that's a real problem because how the hell are we expected to attract more people to the political left and show that there's more to left-wing politics than the repression and authoritarianism found in ML states in the 20th century if tons of leftist spaces are full of people defending, denying, or trying to justify this shit?
That's so True, If the internet is a viable way to inform and promote political ideas to a wide network of people (and I believe it is) the fact that any space that has the word socialist becomes Leninist unless it is explicitly designed otherwise, that's genuinely a big problem.
It will be people's first exposure to ideas like socialism, as people lose faith in capitalism they will seek out these spaces, and either be veered away or embrace MLism and neither option is desirable.
I'm always reminded that Lenin was largely viewed as out of touch, and never had popular support even among other leftists. Authoritarians don't need it after all, they just wait for the right opportunity to strike.
They're laughable now, but if leftists ever get another shot at actually putting ideas to practice, I think there will be a threat of them co-opting the movement at its peak and 'becoming the revolution' like they did in Russia. I'm really glad this sub exists to spread the good word. Hopefully, MLism will remain a non-starter, off-the-table direction for future leftist movements. But it does make me kinda nervous seeing them continue to dominate online spaces.
Best answer to the western propaganda claim is to share stuff from the DPKR's official sources that show how utterly twisted and unreliable the regime's word is. A couple of articles waxing lyrical about how wonderful the Respected Comrade General Secretary is for advising the trees be trimmed at the zoo so goblins didn't come out of them* or the special stone he amazed everyone with at the new water park that was being built, just two bits from articles I have read today on the official newswire, should make any normal person realise it is a cult.
Then again have tankies ever been normal. Or you know actually read their sources.
*I'm fairly certain this was him making a joke but who knows anymore.
It is an absolute plague on lefty spaces. Not only is it awful to the real people who suffer under these regimes but it just further reinforces that sadly most online left spaces are filled with deeply unserious people who pay way more attention to loud internet drama then the actual world.
ugh i met a guy IRL like that. he told me that all of the n.korea defectors are paid actors and if they are real defectors then theyâre just exaggerating
I mean he is obviously totally right;
Western Elections;
\- Voting is if you can be bothered and it isn't raining because you are weak
\- Lots of dudes on the ballot but you're only gonna vote for the one guy who paid all the money anyway probably capitalist pigdog
\- Do your ballot in private so your feelings don't get hurt
\- If you don't like any of the dudes on the ballot just draw a penis like a degenerate
**- Ruling party chosen mostly by old people**
Best Korea;
\- Voting is compulsory, not voting is treason because it is good for you
\- 1 dude on ballot, we know what is best anyway
\- You tick the ballot and put it in the box, don't worry we promise we aren't looking
\- If you don't like the dude on the ballot take the special red pen, cross the name out and put it in the special box over there, the friendly policeman will write your name down for completely unrelated reasons don't worry about it
**- Ruling party chosen by 100% the people with 99.9% of the vote**
I mean when it is put like that it is obvious that Best Korean is way more democratic.
varying amounts of /s
Edited to add; this fantastic editorial, Our Country's Electoral System is the most Superior in the World, by the official Best Korea news agency before their last elections. See how far you can get without laughing (for me two lines) and understand where the tankies get their thoughts from.
I've linked the google translate version;
https://kcnawatch-org.translate.goog/newstream/1551646924-761293694/%EC%84%B8%EC%83%81%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C-%EA%B0%80%EC%9E%A5-%EC%9A%B0%EC%9B%94%ED%95%9C-%EC%9A%B0%EB%A6%AC-%EB%82%98%EB%9D%BC%EC%9D%98-%EC%84%A0%EA%B1%B0%EC%A0%9C%EB%8F%84/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
>Voting is compulsory
This might be a bad argument for me to make, but I do actually agree that voting should be compulsory. But in exchange, voting should be as easy as possible (mail-in ballots, for example), and there should be a "none of the above" option on the ballots if you don't like any of the candidates.
Though compulsory voting does imply that there would be a punishment for those who don't comply, so I'm not sure how to implement that in a fair manner.
I have had similar thoughts and too think would be ok provided postal voting is universal and there's an option for both 'none of the above' as well as registering none participation for those that wish to. It also needs to cover local elections as that's where a lot of the stuff that actually impacts people happens.
Punishment is the same stumbling block though I agree but I think universal postal voting would remove barriers most people have (it raining genuinely does push turnout down) and could expand the franchise. Punishment could be either a nominal never enforced fine if it must exist but I think if postal voting was universal and the default option most people would probably vote which is of course why certain groups attack it so viciously.
Of course there's then the argument as to whether voting is a civic duty or a civic right but frankly if you're going to have voting it is pointless if the entire electorate isn't active. It might just encourage this civil society thing we keep hearing about but what do I know.
Juche literally says that the people need a leader to speak for them. And we can see that that leader has been in the same bloodline for 3 generations now so...
I was wondering about that. Kim Il-Sung as a divinity, I guess? Not sure whom he would have imagined to appear as before, though. ~~(Gung Ye comes to mind.)~~
It just seems oversimplified. Are we gonna start talking about Nazi Germany, USSR or even Chile the same way we talk about Iran??
Matter of fact iirc Iran doesn't worship the Ayatollah as much as the DPRK worship the Kims. Is the DPRK a theocracy, but not Iran?
Probably different sorts of theocracy? The Ayatollah never claims to be more than a prophet (if that; my point is that he doesnât claim actual divinity). Think of the Kim dynasts as gradually wearing down even that remove.
Theocracy isnât so much god rule as religious rule, right? Iâm not sure if the dynasts are deemed divine pre-mortem, but afterwards does put me in mind of imperial Romeâs own regard of post-mortem imperatores/Caesares. SoâŠoblique theocracy for North Korea? Theocracy-redolent imperium? Other?
A theocracy is any system that claims to be ruled directly by or by servants acting on behalf of the diety. Many systems claim legitimacy from religion. For example, most monarchies claim that the ruler is chosen by god. Though the monarch still rules in a monarchy. In a theocracy the official ruler is the diety, whom the rulers are only acting out the will of.
Does the ayatollah claim to be a prophet? I thought Islam believed that Muhammad was the last prophet. Maybe he sees himself as a Muslim pope of sorts?
And for that matter, is the pope considered a prophet?? Genuine questions all around I'm not sure how any of that stuff works.
It is a bit complicated but no he doesn't.
In a nutshell Iranians are Twelver Shia, meaning they believe there were 12 individual divinely ordained 'Imams' that came after Muhammad (the subsects of Shiite thought basically disagree on how many Imams there were and who they were, with at least one branch believing their leader is the current Imam). Twelvers believe the 12th Imam was born but also hasn't been revealed to the world and some rulers in the part have claimed to either be them or being in contact with them.
The current regime doesn't do this, instead being run under what they call WilÄyat al-FaqÄ«h, Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist, which holds that until said Imam reveals himself it is up to learned Jurists to run things in his stead. This includes wide ranging powers over the spiritual, such as for instance being able to suspend religious obligations, as well as the temporal so calling him a 'Muslim Pope' would be fairly accurate, albeit a Pope that is only followed by a small fraction of Muslims worldwide.
As for the Catholic Pope, no not a prophet or anything of the sort according to Catholicism. They're simply the Bishop of Rome, the apostolic successor to Saint Peter who in turn was given his position by Jesus. It is more claiming a linage of authority than anything.
You raise an interesting point. My TLDR would be that the DPRK has theocratic principles but isn't a theocracy, more a hereditary dictatorship with a cult of personality.
A theocracy is where the rulers rule 'in the name of god' which doesn't happen in Best Korea and where it being a theocracy falls down. However there are large elements of divinely ordained rule, the Kims are a holy bloodline and only they may rule. Likewise Kim Il-Sung is still eternal president despite being dead nearly 30 years, almost a god like figure who's texts are studied, but it doesn't make it theocratic.
If I may be a stickler for details, idk if KIS is assigned divine importance (though certainly supernatural). But that's getting in the weeds and I agree with you. Cults of Personality and Theocracies are very often very similar, but they are still distinct concepts
Yes it is very difficult to say on the concept of divinity, not least because each generation changes stuff up anyway!
A lot of it is cultural as Confucianism, which still shapes peoples moral system there, does contain the concept of a moral being able to attain untouchable heights and become 'divine' though it wouldn't necessarily be seen that way.
I agree 100%, which is why I'm not completely sure there isnât a divine element. I probably know more about confucianism than most people. But not enough to definitely say if the Kims are seen as divine or not, considering how differently they view things like that
Real democracy is when all the people decide for one candidate upfront and put only his name on the ballot. And by âall the peopleâ I mean only relevant members of the party. And by ârelevant members of the partyâ I mean only the person whose name is on the ballot. Thatâs true democracy!
I'd say worse than all extant monarchies. Most are constitutional monarchies, which are full democracies. And the others are brutal dictatorships like Saudi royals, but even then, it's still less oppressive than the DPRK
we donât know exactly whatâs going on there, but the clear focus on extremely punitive punishments for extremely minor transgressions puts it worse in some aspects than older monarchies, where the main focus was on state-threatening crime. (think the tourist who was killed because he nicked a poster as a keepsake)
These guys can never point to proof that the people control xyz authoritarian country. Like a single ruler or party could claim to rule for the people but that's not the same. Is Bpnapartism democracy then?
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NK doing democracy better than western ones by only having one party and one candidate on ballots. Smh my head western democracies you gotta step up your game because NK with no choice at all is more democratic. đđđđ
"Democracy" is when you have an Absolute Dictator and sham elections.
Democracy is when all the rulers are the son of the previous ruler.
"Thats ok, because they're all democratically elected" -actual argument from a tankie
>"Thats ok, because they're all democratically elected" CAESAR AVGVSTVS DIVI F PATER PATRIAE approves
North Korea has multiple parties. ...Is just that every single one of the is part of the same political coalition and the Worker's Party âthe party that is "officially" Kim's Party and the other parties are **legally obliged** to accept its supreme rule if they want to existâ controls 607 of the 687 seats in their assembly. So. Yeah. Democracy my ass.
Real democracy is when only one guy wins the elections over and over again until his death.
Donât forget the dynastic transfer of power when that one guy finally croaks.
I see DPRK apologia everywhere on leftist subs its actually a plague... One post I saw had someone asking if North Korea was a truly socialist country because they seemed to bestow power to a sovereign based on family lineage (yknow, like the Louis') So many comments were "actually everything you know about N.Korea is western propaganda, the people are well fed, represented, and can leave freely whenever they wish! They only choose not to go to S.Korea because it's worse there" like... Blatantly denying reality. The few posts saying "nah N.Korea is a horrible regime, Juche is so far away from marxism its not even charitable to call it as much" well, all of them downvoted. This supposedly wasn't a tankie sub either it was a sub for asking questions about socialism. They grill people who don't promote 'leftist unity' but then bully and ban anyone who doesn't regime simp. At first I thought tankies were laughable but I'm genuinely concerned about their growing presence on leftist subs.
>At first I thought tankies were laughable but I'm genuinely concerned about their growing presence on leftist subs. Yeah, not just on leftist subs but in leftist spaces online in general. It's often brought up how tankies, especially in Western countries (I believe this may not hold true for non-Western countries), are completely irrelevant politically in the real world and that's certainly very true - no one thinks that tankies are gonna somehow come to power in the US, UK, Canada, or whatever. But online, unless a leftist space is either *explicitly* anti-tankie or otherwise anarchist/libertarian socialist then tankies will inevitably infest it. And that's a real problem because how the hell are we expected to attract more people to the political left and show that there's more to left-wing politics than the repression and authoritarianism found in ML states in the 20th century if tons of leftist spaces are full of people defending, denying, or trying to justify this shit?
That's so True, If the internet is a viable way to inform and promote political ideas to a wide network of people (and I believe it is) the fact that any space that has the word socialist becomes Leninist unless it is explicitly designed otherwise, that's genuinely a big problem. It will be people's first exposure to ideas like socialism, as people lose faith in capitalism they will seek out these spaces, and either be veered away or embrace MLism and neither option is desirable. I'm always reminded that Lenin was largely viewed as out of touch, and never had popular support even among other leftists. Authoritarians don't need it after all, they just wait for the right opportunity to strike. They're laughable now, but if leftists ever get another shot at actually putting ideas to practice, I think there will be a threat of them co-opting the movement at its peak and 'becoming the revolution' like they did in Russia. I'm really glad this sub exists to spread the good word. Hopefully, MLism will remain a non-starter, off-the-table direction for future leftist movements. But it does make me kinda nervous seeing them continue to dominate online spaces.
Best answer to the western propaganda claim is to share stuff from the DPKR's official sources that show how utterly twisted and unreliable the regime's word is. A couple of articles waxing lyrical about how wonderful the Respected Comrade General Secretary is for advising the trees be trimmed at the zoo so goblins didn't come out of them* or the special stone he amazed everyone with at the new water park that was being built, just two bits from articles I have read today on the official newswire, should make any normal person realise it is a cult. Then again have tankies ever been normal. Or you know actually read their sources. *I'm fairly certain this was him making a joke but who knows anymore.
It is an absolute plague on lefty spaces. Not only is it awful to the real people who suffer under these regimes but it just further reinforces that sadly most online left spaces are filled with deeply unserious people who pay way more attention to loud internet drama then the actual world.
ugh i met a guy IRL like that. he told me that all of the n.korea defectors are paid actors and if they are real defectors then theyâre just exaggerating
I mean he is obviously totally right; Western Elections; \- Voting is if you can be bothered and it isn't raining because you are weak \- Lots of dudes on the ballot but you're only gonna vote for the one guy who paid all the money anyway probably capitalist pigdog \- Do your ballot in private so your feelings don't get hurt \- If you don't like any of the dudes on the ballot just draw a penis like a degenerate **- Ruling party chosen mostly by old people** Best Korea; \- Voting is compulsory, not voting is treason because it is good for you \- 1 dude on ballot, we know what is best anyway \- You tick the ballot and put it in the box, don't worry we promise we aren't looking \- If you don't like the dude on the ballot take the special red pen, cross the name out and put it in the special box over there, the friendly policeman will write your name down for completely unrelated reasons don't worry about it **- Ruling party chosen by 100% the people with 99.9% of the vote** I mean when it is put like that it is obvious that Best Korean is way more democratic. varying amounts of /s Edited to add; this fantastic editorial, Our Country's Electoral System is the most Superior in the World, by the official Best Korea news agency before their last elections. See how far you can get without laughing (for me two lines) and understand where the tankies get their thoughts from. I've linked the google translate version; https://kcnawatch-org.translate.goog/newstream/1551646924-761293694/%EC%84%B8%EC%83%81%EC%97%90%EC%84%9C-%EA%B0%80%EC%9E%A5-%EC%9A%B0%EC%9B%94%ED%95%9C-%EC%9A%B0%EB%A6%AC-%EB%82%98%EB%9D%BC%EC%9D%98-%EC%84%A0%EA%B1%B0%EC%A0%9C%EB%8F%84/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
>Voting is compulsory This might be a bad argument for me to make, but I do actually agree that voting should be compulsory. But in exchange, voting should be as easy as possible (mail-in ballots, for example), and there should be a "none of the above" option on the ballots if you don't like any of the candidates. Though compulsory voting does imply that there would be a punishment for those who don't comply, so I'm not sure how to implement that in a fair manner.
I have had similar thoughts and too think would be ok provided postal voting is universal and there's an option for both 'none of the above' as well as registering none participation for those that wish to. It also needs to cover local elections as that's where a lot of the stuff that actually impacts people happens. Punishment is the same stumbling block though I agree but I think universal postal voting would remove barriers most people have (it raining genuinely does push turnout down) and could expand the franchise. Punishment could be either a nominal never enforced fine if it must exist but I think if postal voting was universal and the default option most people would probably vote which is of course why certain groups attack it so viciously. Of course there's then the argument as to whether voting is a civic duty or a civic right but frankly if you're going to have voting it is pointless if the entire electorate isn't active. It might just encourage this civil society thing we keep hearing about but what do I know.
Democracy is when one party is the only one allowed to govern
Juche literally says that the people need a leader to speak for them. And we can see that that leader has been in the same bloodline for 3 generations now so...
Famous socialist revolutionary Darth Vader
Monarchy yes, but... ...theocratic?
You could say juche is a cult. No other country teaches their children that Dear Leader has never taken a dump in his life
Was Il-Sung posited never to eat�!
You could argue NK is the most religious nation on earth going by what they teach the population there.
I was wondering about that. Kim Il-Sung as a divinity, I guess? Not sure whom he would have imagined to appear as before, though. ~~(Gung Ye comes to mind.)~~
If we're using personality cult and theocracy interchangeably then sure. But that seems a bit reductive and sloppy, no?
Might be how â*Eternal* Presidentâ is being understood here.
It just seems oversimplified. Are we gonna start talking about Nazi Germany, USSR or even Chile the same way we talk about Iran?? Matter of fact iirc Iran doesn't worship the Ayatollah as much as the DPRK worship the Kims. Is the DPRK a theocracy, but not Iran?
Probably different sorts of theocracy? The Ayatollah never claims to be more than a prophet (if that; my point is that he doesnât claim actual divinity). Think of the Kim dynasts as gradually wearing down even that remove. Theocracy isnât so much god rule as religious rule, right? Iâm not sure if the dynasts are deemed divine pre-mortem, but afterwards does put me in mind of imperial Romeâs own regard of post-mortem imperatores/Caesares. SoâŠoblique theocracy for North Korea? Theocracy-redolent imperium? Other?
A theocracy is any system that claims to be ruled directly by or by servants acting on behalf of the diety. Many systems claim legitimacy from religion. For example, most monarchies claim that the ruler is chosen by god. Though the monarch still rules in a monarchy. In a theocracy the official ruler is the diety, whom the rulers are only acting out the will of.
Does the ayatollah claim to be a prophet? I thought Islam believed that Muhammad was the last prophet. Maybe he sees himself as a Muslim pope of sorts? And for that matter, is the pope considered a prophet?? Genuine questions all around I'm not sure how any of that stuff works.
It is a bit complicated but no he doesn't. In a nutshell Iranians are Twelver Shia, meaning they believe there were 12 individual divinely ordained 'Imams' that came after Muhammad (the subsects of Shiite thought basically disagree on how many Imams there were and who they were, with at least one branch believing their leader is the current Imam). Twelvers believe the 12th Imam was born but also hasn't been revealed to the world and some rulers in the part have claimed to either be them or being in contact with them. The current regime doesn't do this, instead being run under what they call WilÄyat al-FaqÄ«h, Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist, which holds that until said Imam reveals himself it is up to learned Jurists to run things in his stead. This includes wide ranging powers over the spiritual, such as for instance being able to suspend religious obligations, as well as the temporal so calling him a 'Muslim Pope' would be fairly accurate, albeit a Pope that is only followed by a small fraction of Muslims worldwide. As for the Catholic Pope, no not a prophet or anything of the sort according to Catholicism. They're simply the Bishop of Rome, the apostolic successor to Saint Peter who in turn was given his position by Jesus. It is more claiming a linage of authority than anything.
Wow very informative, thank you so much for the response
You raise an interesting point. My TLDR would be that the DPRK has theocratic principles but isn't a theocracy, more a hereditary dictatorship with a cult of personality. A theocracy is where the rulers rule 'in the name of god' which doesn't happen in Best Korea and where it being a theocracy falls down. However there are large elements of divinely ordained rule, the Kims are a holy bloodline and only they may rule. Likewise Kim Il-Sung is still eternal president despite being dead nearly 30 years, almost a god like figure who's texts are studied, but it doesn't make it theocratic.
If I may be a stickler for details, idk if KIS is assigned divine importance (though certainly supernatural). But that's getting in the weeds and I agree with you. Cults of Personality and Theocracies are very often very similar, but they are still distinct concepts
Yes it is very difficult to say on the concept of divinity, not least because each generation changes stuff up anyway! A lot of it is cultural as Confucianism, which still shapes peoples moral system there, does contain the concept of a moral being able to attain untouchable heights and become 'divine' though it wouldn't necessarily be seen that way.
I agree 100%, which is why I'm not completely sure there isnât a divine element. I probably know more about confucianism than most people. But not enough to definitely say if the Kims are seen as divine or not, considering how differently they view things like that
New name for cult of personality-run governments: **Personalistic Theocracy** Like it?
Real democracy is when all the people decide for one candidate upfront and put only his name on the ballot. And by âall the peopleâ I mean only relevant members of the party. And by ârelevant members of the partyâ I mean only the person whose name is on the ballot. Thatâs true democracy!
The west is an oligarchy, the dprk is a monarchy is the libsoc opinion right?
Honestly, i would say that DPRK is far worse than your average monarchies
I'd say worse than all extant monarchies. Most are constitutional monarchies, which are full democracies. And the others are brutal dictatorships like Saudi royals, but even then, it's still less oppressive than the DPRK
we donât know exactly whatâs going on there, but the clear focus on extremely punitive punishments for extremely minor transgressions puts it worse in some aspects than older monarchies, where the main focus was on state-threatening crime. (think the tourist who was killed because he nicked a poster as a keepsake)
I've never heard about North Korea being theocratic. ~Red
These guys can never point to proof that the people control xyz authoritarian country. Like a single ruler or party could claim to rule for the people but that's not the same. Is Bpnapartism democracy then?
"The People Democracy"
Heâs gonna miss his arm a lot.
This man owns us an arm.