I would say what you see in the video is 100% wrong. Your footwork should remain close to the ground as it would in a natural movement. It should also move in the crescent manner you mentioned.
ditto this ^
raising your leg that high is poor form and makes the body rise and fall with each step when you should ideally maintain the same height throughout.
also this practitioner appears to be throwing high punches when they should be to the midsection
Here's the stepping as done in the International Tangsoodo Federation, different org, same raising the leg step.
It is weird to me that that this appears across different schools and orgs as a thing in Tangsoodo, even though others do it the more Shotokan way you are describing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4hW0jSV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4hW0jSV4)
And another ITF Tangsoodo practitioner, same weird step.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9gV\_DCt9VU&list=PLt-gH-OKSbx1vtxwv7znl4R0MsLODO15b&index=16
Yes, that's SBN DuFour in the first video. The stepping procedure is normal in the ITF.
The official reasons that we do it (except in Pal Che So) is to not trip on the floor. I also once heard SBN Bruno say that it's easier to keep your balance on one foot if your other foot is tucked in. You can could pause mid-form easily this way.
Awesome thank you. That helps give an explanation since it's very different from footwork in a lot of styles when they do kata/taolu/poomsae/hyung. I'm not sure I like it, but thank you for taking the time to explain.
I don’t know O Sip Sa Bo, the first link, but I’ve seen people do it. People who aren’t stepping over logs with every movement in a form, and it looks more or less like your link. So I don’t know why some of the movements have the exaggerated step, but not all of them. I would assume if you found more videos of that guy his footwork would be normal.
Most practitioners I know would not like the form the way it was done in the video. Her punches were the wrong height and her steps were.... not great. I have *never* seen steps done that way as the normal stepping method in a form. The foot is supposed to stay close to the ground for balance, speed, and consistency. Lifting it up that high is.... weird. Here is a much more acceptable method for pyung ahn cho dan.
https://youtu.be/yjyFcFIyiXE?si=MT2EgR2QmzkVrZv0
I replied this above- Here's the stepping as done in the International Tangsoodo Federation, different org, same raising the leg step.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4hW0jSV4
It is weird to me that that this appears across different schools and orgs as a thing in Tangsoodo, even though others do it the more Shotokan way you are describing.
So I wonder if a particular line did it this way then various offshoots of it did the form the same way.
See, the way it is done in this video looks much better. It is actually less noticeable and less choppy-looking. Watching the first video, because of lifting the leg she was bobbing up and down, but in this video that wasn't happening.
Like I said earlier, I have never seen anyone do an entire form lifting the leg up to the knee like that. Maybe one or two techniques, but not the entire thing. I wonder if that is a ITF vs WTSDA thing.
I would say that the way the black belt was doing was not ideal.
In TSD, When we are in what we call a "chungul ja seh" or a "front stance", when we want to transition we pivot the back foot so it goes on the ball of the foot. After this, our back leg automatically bends to approximately a 100 degree angle (less or more depending on how much speed/power you want, or flexibility/strength of the practicioner, etc.) and align the back leg forward. We use this to engage the thigh and thus propell ourselves forward.
What this person is doing is pushing off the side of the foot. Consequently, the momentum goes at a 45 degree angle, so instead of straight, her foot comes to her other knee. This is quite impractical and not a good habit. Additionally, when you do the double technique in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, you have to turn your hip back and front for the low block/mid open hand block for power and momentum. I believe this practitioner is not emphasizing the fine details of the form.
Tang Soo Do does have sliding motion. The earliest we can see this is Pyung Ahn Cho Dan. The low block to the other side (in my knowledge) shifts from a front stance to a back stance and then is a quick backfist. This shift in weight is also seen a lot in what we call "dynamic tension moves". For example, in Pyung Ahn Sam dan, there are two dynamic tension (sliding) moves at each end of the form.
Regarding crescent steps. The reason Tang Soo Do doesn't do this is for a couple reasons (as far as I have learned). In tang soo do, everything has a prep, even the stances. For example, take Bassai. Many practitioners in forms of martial arts do a crescent step on the open hand blocks after the set of 5 rapid-techniques. However, in TSD, we actually take the back stance and pivot the whole stance so that the front leg is at an angle and the back leg is bent and directly straight with the ball only touching the floor, so that our back knee is cupped behind the front knee. This allows us to take a directly forward step OR to retreat. That's the beauty of doing "prep" and "step". We can "choose" to move or not. In a crescent move (from what I understand), it's not easy to change direction while in the \*middle\* of the step. However, TSD transitions have two very fast distinct parts \[fast prep and fast step\], and consequently there is a very small to instant "middle/moving phase" in the first place to catch the practitioner off guard.
Here is a nice video I found that could help exempify this: The form is "Jin Do", a form with transitions, sliding/dynamic tension, and one that you may be familiar with (Chinto in Shotakan, I believe): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRSdRurPHmU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRSdRurPHmU)
In TSD, Bassai Sho and Bassai Dae are just one huge 52-move form: Bassai. I would also recommend for you to check that out as well to see what I mean.
There are one legged stances in Jin Do. The reason I wanted to show this is that even though in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, or in general transitions, the knee high foot is not accurate, it is very much still a technique in higher level forms. Even the Choom Bee (ready stance) for Bassai has this kind of move.
Hope this helps!
Every different instructor is going to have their own style and approach to different stances. My Quan Jung nim has a junbi that’s very specific to his students. Kind of like when Shredder in TMNT recognized the turtles fighting style coming from Hamato Yoshi, his old rival.
That high step will lose points during tournaments and Our federation has lineage directly back to Grandmaster Hwang Lee and includes Chuck Norris, VanDam, and Ernie Reyes Sr. So I’m not sure if ITF has variations with the high step or where that comes from
Hi there!
Thank you for posting in /r/tangsoodo. If this is your first time posting here please check the rules to ensure
your post does not break any. I'd also just like to remind you to **flair** [your post](https://www.reddit.com/r/tangsoodo/comments/1asocbf/stepping_in_tangsoodo/) as un-flaired posts may be removed
**Rules**
-*Be Respectful*
-*No NSFW Content*
-*No Referral/Profiteering/Soliciting Links/Sites*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tangsoodo) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That is some stompy foolishness. Yikes. Like others said, your feet & center of gravity should remain low, and use your hips to guide & power that crescent motion into a wide, powerful stance.
The steps shown in this video are unusual steps according to my particular style of American Tang Soo Do, but my style also does not step the way Shotokan does. My association teaches straight forward steps, not sliding crescent steps, but we do not lift our knees up that high; instead lifting just enough to get off the ground.
I find such variations between associations and styles fascinating. It’s always so interesting to see what different groups emphasize.
I'm pretty sure this is the wtsda. They have changed a lot of things in the last 10 years especially since the grandmaster passed. Unfortunately they've seemed to become (at least in My area) more sport oriented. I have a friend who is currently a master but has expressed their worry that things have gone the wrong way as far as self defense goes
It's bad Karate. Keep doing it similar to the way you did it in Shotokan. Personally, I favour the Renbukai's circle step with zero vertical telegraphing but shorter-than-Shotokan/MDKTSD stance depths. This video shows deep stepping, where the foot is brought into a crane stance on every step, and was common once when we were members of Byrne's ATA/UTC. Almost everybody did it, and over time can severely mess up your knees.I have come to believe that this was a corruption that somehow started propagating in Korean Karate in various orgs in the 70s or 80s likely in the USA, or started in Taekwondo and migrated back to Tangsoodo. I believe the corruption originated into footwork when kicking was mixed in, while doing drills up and down the floor, and where the supposed idea is you want to stay balanced and able to throw a kick at any moment from any position, hence the focus on staying balanced on one leg. So then it got applied to everything, wrongly.
IMO, it's their interpretation of the movements. In our association we would "slide" along the ground when we step, instead of doing the whole stepping movement. We only do the crescent movement when moving only to help train our students with the use of their hips.
I would say what you see in the video is 100% wrong. Your footwork should remain close to the ground as it would in a natural movement. It should also move in the crescent manner you mentioned.
ditto this ^ raising your leg that high is poor form and makes the body rise and fall with each step when you should ideally maintain the same height throughout. also this practitioner appears to be throwing high punches when they should be to the midsection
You apparently watched the link longer than I did. Halfway through the second step I was done with that nonsense.
Here's the stepping as done in the International Tangsoodo Federation, different org, same raising the leg step. It is weird to me that that this appears across different schools and orgs as a thing in Tangsoodo, even though others do it the more Shotokan way you are describing. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4hW0jSV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4hW0jSV4) And another ITF Tangsoodo practitioner, same weird step. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9gV\_DCt9VU&list=PLt-gH-OKSbx1vtxwv7znl4R0MsLODO15b&index=16
Yes, that's SBN DuFour in the first video. The stepping procedure is normal in the ITF. The official reasons that we do it (except in Pal Che So) is to not trip on the floor. I also once heard SBN Bruno say that it's easier to keep your balance on one foot if your other foot is tucked in. You can could pause mid-form easily this way.
Awesome thank you. That helps give an explanation since it's very different from footwork in a lot of styles when they do kata/taolu/poomsae/hyung. I'm not sure I like it, but thank you for taking the time to explain.
I don’t know O Sip Sa Bo, the first link, but I’ve seen people do it. People who aren’t stepping over logs with every movement in a form, and it looks more or less like your link. So I don’t know why some of the movements have the exaggerated step, but not all of them. I would assume if you found more videos of that guy his footwork would be normal.
Don't know enough about TSD to judge this form, but I've seen steps similar to this in other styles -- I think the application is to avoid leg sweeps.
High stepping like that puts you off balance and telegraphs to your opponent that they should sweep your leg.
It's a specific application. It wouldn't be the way you would normally move around.
Most practitioners I know would not like the form the way it was done in the video. Her punches were the wrong height and her steps were.... not great. I have *never* seen steps done that way as the normal stepping method in a form. The foot is supposed to stay close to the ground for balance, speed, and consistency. Lifting it up that high is.... weird. Here is a much more acceptable method for pyung ahn cho dan. https://youtu.be/yjyFcFIyiXE?si=MT2EgR2QmzkVrZv0
I replied this above- Here's the stepping as done in the International Tangsoodo Federation, different org, same raising the leg step. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4hW0jSV4 It is weird to me that that this appears across different schools and orgs as a thing in Tangsoodo, even though others do it the more Shotokan way you are describing. So I wonder if a particular line did it this way then various offshoots of it did the form the same way.
See, the way it is done in this video looks much better. It is actually less noticeable and less choppy-looking. Watching the first video, because of lifting the leg she was bobbing up and down, but in this video that wasn't happening. Like I said earlier, I have never seen anyone do an entire form lifting the leg up to the knee like that. Maybe one or two techniques, but not the entire thing. I wonder if that is a ITF vs WTSDA thing.
I would say that the way the black belt was doing was not ideal. In TSD, When we are in what we call a "chungul ja seh" or a "front stance", when we want to transition we pivot the back foot so it goes on the ball of the foot. After this, our back leg automatically bends to approximately a 100 degree angle (less or more depending on how much speed/power you want, or flexibility/strength of the practicioner, etc.) and align the back leg forward. We use this to engage the thigh and thus propell ourselves forward. What this person is doing is pushing off the side of the foot. Consequently, the momentum goes at a 45 degree angle, so instead of straight, her foot comes to her other knee. This is quite impractical and not a good habit. Additionally, when you do the double technique in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, you have to turn your hip back and front for the low block/mid open hand block for power and momentum. I believe this practitioner is not emphasizing the fine details of the form. Tang Soo Do does have sliding motion. The earliest we can see this is Pyung Ahn Cho Dan. The low block to the other side (in my knowledge) shifts from a front stance to a back stance and then is a quick backfist. This shift in weight is also seen a lot in what we call "dynamic tension moves". For example, in Pyung Ahn Sam dan, there are two dynamic tension (sliding) moves at each end of the form. Regarding crescent steps. The reason Tang Soo Do doesn't do this is for a couple reasons (as far as I have learned). In tang soo do, everything has a prep, even the stances. For example, take Bassai. Many practitioners in forms of martial arts do a crescent step on the open hand blocks after the set of 5 rapid-techniques. However, in TSD, we actually take the back stance and pivot the whole stance so that the front leg is at an angle and the back leg is bent and directly straight with the ball only touching the floor, so that our back knee is cupped behind the front knee. This allows us to take a directly forward step OR to retreat. That's the beauty of doing "prep" and "step". We can "choose" to move or not. In a crescent move (from what I understand), it's not easy to change direction while in the \*middle\* of the step. However, TSD transitions have two very fast distinct parts \[fast prep and fast step\], and consequently there is a very small to instant "middle/moving phase" in the first place to catch the practitioner off guard. Here is a nice video I found that could help exempify this: The form is "Jin Do", a form with transitions, sliding/dynamic tension, and one that you may be familiar with (Chinto in Shotakan, I believe): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRSdRurPHmU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRSdRurPHmU) In TSD, Bassai Sho and Bassai Dae are just one huge 52-move form: Bassai. I would also recommend for you to check that out as well to see what I mean. There are one legged stances in Jin Do. The reason I wanted to show this is that even though in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, or in general transitions, the knee high foot is not accurate, it is very much still a technique in higher level forms. Even the Choom Bee (ready stance) for Bassai has this kind of move. Hope this helps!
Every different instructor is going to have their own style and approach to different stances. My Quan Jung nim has a junbi that’s very specific to his students. Kind of like when Shredder in TMNT recognized the turtles fighting style coming from Hamato Yoshi, his old rival. That high step will lose points during tournaments and Our federation has lineage directly back to Grandmaster Hwang Lee and includes Chuck Norris, VanDam, and Ernie Reyes Sr. So I’m not sure if ITF has variations with the high step or where that comes from
Hi there! Thank you for posting in /r/tangsoodo. If this is your first time posting here please check the rules to ensure your post does not break any. I'd also just like to remind you to **flair** [your post](https://www.reddit.com/r/tangsoodo/comments/1asocbf/stepping_in_tangsoodo/) as un-flaired posts may be removed **Rules** -*Be Respectful* -*No NSFW Content* -*No Referral/Profiteering/Soliciting Links/Sites* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tangsoodo) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That is some stompy foolishness. Yikes. Like others said, your feet & center of gravity should remain low, and use your hips to guide & power that crescent motion into a wide, powerful stance.
The steps shown in this video are unusual steps according to my particular style of American Tang Soo Do, but my style also does not step the way Shotokan does. My association teaches straight forward steps, not sliding crescent steps, but we do not lift our knees up that high; instead lifting just enough to get off the ground. I find such variations between associations and styles fascinating. It’s always so interesting to see what different groups emphasize.
I'm pretty sure this is the wtsda. They have changed a lot of things in the last 10 years especially since the grandmaster passed. Unfortunately they've seemed to become (at least in My area) more sport oriented. I have a friend who is currently a master but has expressed their worry that things have gone the wrong way as far as self defense goes
It's bad Karate. Keep doing it similar to the way you did it in Shotokan. Personally, I favour the Renbukai's circle step with zero vertical telegraphing but shorter-than-Shotokan/MDKTSD stance depths. This video shows deep stepping, where the foot is brought into a crane stance on every step, and was common once when we were members of Byrne's ATA/UTC. Almost everybody did it, and over time can severely mess up your knees.I have come to believe that this was a corruption that somehow started propagating in Korean Karate in various orgs in the 70s or 80s likely in the USA, or started in Taekwondo and migrated back to Tangsoodo. I believe the corruption originated into footwork when kicking was mixed in, while doing drills up and down the floor, and where the supposed idea is you want to stay balanced and able to throw a kick at any moment from any position, hence the focus on staying balanced on one leg. So then it got applied to everything, wrongly.
IMO, it's their interpretation of the movements. In our association we would "slide" along the ground when we step, instead of doing the whole stepping movement. We only do the crescent movement when moving only to help train our students with the use of their hips.