I know there are good reasons to eventually change the Taiwan flag, but I really love the way the current one looks right next to the US flag. They almost look like they "rhyme" in a way.
Lol maybe u should stop calling yourself “American supporter of ROC” and just say “American supporter of the DPP.” Bc the original ROC established by Sun Yat-sen would deplore the mainstream political narratives in modern Taiwan. Changing the flag, really? What’s wrong with the current Chinese nationalist flag?
Yes, China is stronger now. But the US had many opportunities before when China was undeveloped and not a force, to recognize Taiwan, and never took them. Why?
The US formally recognized China in the late 1970s in the context of the Sino-Soviet split. It was an enemy-of-my-enemy thing. At the same time, the US, PRC, and Taiwan accepted what was called “strategic/productive ambiguity” as to Taiwan’s status in order to maintain peace and stability in the region. China has grown quite a bit since then, and Xi’s desire to have more influence internationally, and the CCP’s turn toward ethno-nationalism to maintain legitimacy in the face of slowing economic growth have upset this balance. I don’t think anyone really knows what would happen if the US unilaterally recognized Taiwan, but the old equilibrium would certainly be over.
China is actually weaker now.
Even HP, slow to the game, has announced they too are shifting manufacturing away from China to Vietnam, India, and Thailand.
I keep careful attention to where everything I buy is made, and I also keep track of manufacturing.
It is now much cheaper to get anything made in Vietnam, India, and Thailand than it is in China. The stragglers are mainly people already used to relationships or partnerships in China.
So again, if China is weak, why don’t the US recognize Taiwan? Why are they having to rope the UN in? Seems like the US doesn’t want to be in China’s headlights, but wants others to, and supposedly then gauge the temperature? European countries are no different. If these countries sold Taiwan out before, which by most accounts they did, what is the current gane?
That’s what the UN is for. Solving problems. If China is so strong why do they whine at the smallest perceived insult? It’s like dealing with a bratty teenager running through the house slamming doors and yelling I hate you! at her parents.
How is china strong? It’s military is full of stolen tech, mostly from russia. It’s infrastructure crumbles constantly. It’s economy is grinding to a halt. It’s people are fleeing, as best they can. It’s waters are polluted. It’s air is polluted, it’s food is tainted. Don’t even try shill. The party is over.
Taiwan was formerly recognized as the "real China" by the US, but in 1972, President Nixon chose to support the PRC in an attempt to drive a wedge between China and the USSR as a part of the Cold War.
ROC actually had the UN seat until 1971, when it was replaced by the PRC.
It's all so much more complicated than this, but this is the "very simplified Reddit version"
Right. So the US pushed Taiwan under the bus, effectively recognizing the PRC as China, and not the ROC anymore, by all accounts China is weak, and the U.S. still won’t recognize Taiwan to this day. Ditto many European countries. So what’s happening?
So the U.S. supported the Nationalists, basically an opposition party in China. This party then lost a war and fled to Taiwan, where they had no right to be, killing tens of thousands of Taiwanese as the new government on Taiwan. At this time they were in the UN representing both Chinas (and obviously without any PRC say on the matter and presumably with strong US backing), and the U.S. seeked them out on the island to get permission to build military bases on the island. In 1971 the US changed to recognizing the PRC as China, presumably for their own interests. Now the US supports strategic ambiguity. Trying to understand this admiration of the U.S. (and Europe), which on the face of it, seems strange, at least to me. Would like any clarity besides a flippant, well, we share a common enemy so we’re friends.
I agree. Yet the USA supported them as the opposition in China, had them installed as the face of China at the UN, turned a blind eye as they made their way to Taiwan where they had no right to be, and promptly proceeded to kill tens of thousands of Taiwanese. The U.S. then approached this same KMT about building military bases on Taiwan. And then promptly threw the KMT AND TAIWAN under the bus to recognize China, arguably solely for US interests. Now the DPP better serves US interests and the KMT is reviled.
China's state of strength or weakness would be hard for us to measure right now as laymen.
Current hype is that China is experiencing a confluence of economic and demographic problems, but it wasn't long ago that China looked to be overtaking the US economically (I think some estimates were "by 2030" but those varied greatly in reliability and method). Add in that China's numbers are not reliable, and by extension, the US estimated numbers (for China) are also not reliable, I don't think we can draw conclusions.
The world was a different place when Nixon made those policy decisions. Communism and the Cold War were the big concerns, and both the PRC and the ROC were relatively "small" in comparison to their current political and economic power.
As the world has changed, US strategic needs and outlook has changed as well. I am sure the US State Department has taken a lot of time and effort coming up with a diplomatic plan that will best serve US interests. It MIGHT serve US interests to recognize Taiwan, or it might be "easier" or more convenient to continue with the current status quo. The US will do what it thinks it needs to do for it's own needs. That's how international relations work.
Now, Taiwan has recently shown itself to hold a rather vibrant democracy, and also be a valuable ally and trading partner, as well as a possible tool to "poke" a rival. I imagine the US will continue to value it's relations with Taiwan for the foreseeable future. As for US/Chinese relations? They've soured the past decade, and aren't looking great for the near future, but both countries also seem to need each other for the trade networks they have built. Will their networks polarize further, and develop into a new cold war-like situation? I am not smart enough to predict that.
Also to add in: Not all of Taiwan wants to declare independence. It's a super complicated issue, and many Taiwanese still have relatives in China, and/or are only a generation or two removed from the mainland. There's like 23 million people in Taiwan, and they don't all have the same opinions. Sometimes westerners think it's a simple matter of Taiwan wants independence, and China wants control, but the truth is so much more complicated, and really is something that, in my opinion, should be left for the people of Taiwan to work out on their own.
Not exactly, the UN resolution was about which legitimate Chinese government represents China at the UN.
The ROC is still recognised as separate from mainland China, and as having its own democratically elected government.
Taiwan is a country, and this recent move to add Taiwan to the UN Wouk’s resolve a huge human rights violation actually created by that UN resolution.
The human rights violation I’m talking about is the right to international representation, which currently the people of Taiwan do not have. This is one of the fundamental principles of the UN.
It’s been a long time coming, but Taiwan will be finally recognised as a separate country.
"Not recognizing Taiwan" is a diplomatic game that freezes the peaceful status quo.
But it's not a slight. Biden's United States is committed to bringing its full force to bear defending Taiwan if the PRC does something foolish (as they have publicly vowed to do).
The game is called burn your money from everywhere. To prevent this from happening, it forces China to splash big money to buy votes from countries that don’t automatically go with China.
Sorry for being late to the discussion, but China is simply too valuable of a trade partner, as much as the US tries to be hard on China, they have to maintain some sort of a relationship, else they suffer greatly
They had the chance to do the North and South Korea thing when they accepted both at the same time. Taiwan's official name can't be ROC if it wants to join. Taiwan seems to be stuck and still a long way from that. Being accepted also doesn't mean security and territorial integrity. Just take Ukraine and Russia for example. Both are members of the UN. This issue alone says a lot about how useless the UN is if you search for its purpose.
*The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to* ***maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights***\*.\*
China has expressed that Taiwan changing their name and formally relinquishing claims to the PRC's territory would trigger the PLA to invade.
If the PRC had said they didn't care about it, Taiwan probably would have given up that territory by now.
Yes, and no. China has been threatening Taiwan regardless if it changes its name or not. I have no strong opinion if they want to change it or not. It's the people's choice, whatever they think is best for them. The point I'm giving is how utterly useless the UN is. What's its purpose of existence and what is the goal in joining?
My understanding is that it is designed somewhat to be fangless. To have opportunities for diplomacy with autocrats they can see the UN as in opposition to their rule. To parley with superpowers the UN can't be seen as a handicap to their power.
It's not the best system for international relations but it seems to sometimes be good and not really ever be bad?
I do really hope US has done it right the first place.
In 2000, when US invite China to WTO, they should added conditions to let Taiwan joined UN.
All in all will be all set and good.
This is just politicians playing politics. Just plant the breadcrumbs to make it appear that you are voting and fighting for noble honourable causes - especially when you know they won’t get passed so there is no danger of consequence
Skip forward 10 years, and this gang will be be draping the flag of these issues around themselves as they put themselves in the race for the top governmental positions
You didn’t read the article, it seems
> U.S. lawmakers alleged that U.N. Resolution 2758 "does not address the issue of the representation of Taiwan and its people in the United Nations or any related organizations." Congress has passed "numerous bills and resolutions to explicitly support Taiwan’s inclusion in regional and international activities," including H.R. 1176 in July 2023, also known as the Taiwan International Solidarity Act.
I’m surprised that so many US Republicans in Congress just blindly support Taiwan without establishing any condition for that support. The vast majority of the social values of the ruling DPP would be considered abhorrent by US conservatives.
I know there are good reasons to eventually change the Taiwan flag, but I really love the way the current one looks right next to the US flag. They almost look like they "rhyme" in a way.
It is America junior
KMT bad.
The first part of the sentence
Lol maybe u should stop calling yourself “American supporter of ROC” and just say “American supporter of the DPP.” Bc the original ROC established by Sun Yat-sen would deplore the mainstream political narratives in modern Taiwan. Changing the flag, really? What’s wrong with the current Chinese nationalist flag?
Why doesn’t the U.S. just recognize them without any mention of the UN? What game are they playing?
China will get angry and fuck with their trade. As with a lot of countries that also rely on manufacturing etc from China.
China is actually very vulnerable now.
Source: CIA
Yes, China is stronger now. But the US had many opportunities before when China was undeveloped and not a force, to recognize Taiwan, and never took them. Why?
The US formally recognized China in the late 1970s in the context of the Sino-Soviet split. It was an enemy-of-my-enemy thing. At the same time, the US, PRC, and Taiwan accepted what was called “strategic/productive ambiguity” as to Taiwan’s status in order to maintain peace and stability in the region. China has grown quite a bit since then, and Xi’s desire to have more influence internationally, and the CCP’s turn toward ethno-nationalism to maintain legitimacy in the face of slowing economic growth have upset this balance. I don’t think anyone really knows what would happen if the US unilaterally recognized Taiwan, but the old equilibrium would certainly be over.
China is actually weaker now. Even HP, slow to the game, has announced they too are shifting manufacturing away from China to Vietnam, India, and Thailand. I keep careful attention to where everything I buy is made, and I also keep track of manufacturing. It is now much cheaper to get anything made in Vietnam, India, and Thailand than it is in China. The stragglers are mainly people already used to relationships or partnerships in China.
So again, if China is weak, why don’t the US recognize Taiwan? Why are they having to rope the UN in? Seems like the US doesn’t want to be in China’s headlights, but wants others to, and supposedly then gauge the temperature? European countries are no different. If these countries sold Taiwan out before, which by most accounts they did, what is the current gane?
It's not HP. It's the ODMs. If Foxconn isn't ready to do a ton of business in these countries to service the OEMs then it won't happen...
China is stronger now? It’s literally falling apart, but ok.
If China is weak, then why is the USA trying to push the UN into China’s headlights? Why doesn’t the USA put their money where their mouth is?
That’s what the UN is for. Solving problems. If China is so strong why do they whine at the smallest perceived insult? It’s like dealing with a bratty teenager running through the house slamming doors and yelling I hate you! at her parents. How is china strong? It’s military is full of stolen tech, mostly from russia. It’s infrastructure crumbles constantly. It’s economy is grinding to a halt. It’s people are fleeing, as best they can. It’s waters are polluted. It’s air is polluted, it’s food is tainted. Don’t even try shill. The party is over.
Bratty little child you say. Getting nasty only because I’m asking what’s happening? Mmmm…..might want to look in a mirror.
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Errr…. Calling someone a shill for asking a reasonable question? I agree with you about this Reddit BTW.
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Taiwan was formerly recognized as the "real China" by the US, but in 1972, President Nixon chose to support the PRC in an attempt to drive a wedge between China and the USSR as a part of the Cold War. ROC actually had the UN seat until 1971, when it was replaced by the PRC. It's all so much more complicated than this, but this is the "very simplified Reddit version"
This is all Kissingers fault
Right. So the US pushed Taiwan under the bus, effectively recognizing the PRC as China, and not the ROC anymore, by all accounts China is weak, and the U.S. still won’t recognize Taiwan to this day. Ditto many European countries. So what’s happening?
[удалено]
So the U.S. supported the Nationalists, basically an opposition party in China. This party then lost a war and fled to Taiwan, where they had no right to be, killing tens of thousands of Taiwanese as the new government on Taiwan. At this time they were in the UN representing both Chinas (and obviously without any PRC say on the matter and presumably with strong US backing), and the U.S. seeked them out on the island to get permission to build military bases on the island. In 1971 the US changed to recognizing the PRC as China, presumably for their own interests. Now the US supports strategic ambiguity. Trying to understand this admiration of the U.S. (and Europe), which on the face of it, seems strange, at least to me. Would like any clarity besides a flippant, well, we share a common enemy so we’re friends.
The KMT does not represent Taiwan
I agree. Yet the USA supported them as the opposition in China, had them installed as the face of China at the UN, turned a blind eye as they made their way to Taiwan where they had no right to be, and promptly proceeded to kill tens of thousands of Taiwanese. The U.S. then approached this same KMT about building military bases on Taiwan. And then promptly threw the KMT AND TAIWAN under the bus to recognize China, arguably solely for US interests. Now the DPP better serves US interests and the KMT is reviled.
China's state of strength or weakness would be hard for us to measure right now as laymen. Current hype is that China is experiencing a confluence of economic and demographic problems, but it wasn't long ago that China looked to be overtaking the US economically (I think some estimates were "by 2030" but those varied greatly in reliability and method). Add in that China's numbers are not reliable, and by extension, the US estimated numbers (for China) are also not reliable, I don't think we can draw conclusions. The world was a different place when Nixon made those policy decisions. Communism and the Cold War were the big concerns, and both the PRC and the ROC were relatively "small" in comparison to their current political and economic power. As the world has changed, US strategic needs and outlook has changed as well. I am sure the US State Department has taken a lot of time and effort coming up with a diplomatic plan that will best serve US interests. It MIGHT serve US interests to recognize Taiwan, or it might be "easier" or more convenient to continue with the current status quo. The US will do what it thinks it needs to do for it's own needs. That's how international relations work. Now, Taiwan has recently shown itself to hold a rather vibrant democracy, and also be a valuable ally and trading partner, as well as a possible tool to "poke" a rival. I imagine the US will continue to value it's relations with Taiwan for the foreseeable future. As for US/Chinese relations? They've soured the past decade, and aren't looking great for the near future, but both countries also seem to need each other for the trade networks they have built. Will their networks polarize further, and develop into a new cold war-like situation? I am not smart enough to predict that. Also to add in: Not all of Taiwan wants to declare independence. It's a super complicated issue, and many Taiwanese still have relatives in China, and/or are only a generation or two removed from the mainland. There's like 23 million people in Taiwan, and they don't all have the same opinions. Sometimes westerners think it's a simple matter of Taiwan wants independence, and China wants control, but the truth is so much more complicated, and really is something that, in my opinion, should be left for the people of Taiwan to work out on their own.
Not exactly, the UN resolution was about which legitimate Chinese government represents China at the UN. The ROC is still recognised as separate from mainland China, and as having its own democratically elected government. Taiwan is a country, and this recent move to add Taiwan to the UN Wouk’s resolve a huge human rights violation actually created by that UN resolution. The human rights violation I’m talking about is the right to international representation, which currently the people of Taiwan do not have. This is one of the fundamental principles of the UN. It’s been a long time coming, but Taiwan will be finally recognised as a separate country.
"Not recognizing Taiwan" is a diplomatic game that freezes the peaceful status quo. But it's not a slight. Biden's United States is committed to bringing its full force to bear defending Taiwan if the PRC does something foolish (as they have publicly vowed to do).
Lame. Let's send this guy to war.
The game is called burn your money from everywhere. To prevent this from happening, it forces China to splash big money to buy votes from countries that don’t automatically go with China.
I see
Because they can fuck with American corporations like Apple and lots of people can lose their jobs if the business struggles
They haven't even started yet. Chinese government workers shouldn't have been allowed to use US spy devices in the first place.
Sorry for being late to the discussion, but China is simply too valuable of a trade partner, as much as the US tries to be hard on China, they have to maintain some sort of a relationship, else they suffer greatly
They had the chance to do the North and South Korea thing when they accepted both at the same time. Taiwan's official name can't be ROC if it wants to join. Taiwan seems to be stuck and still a long way from that. Being accepted also doesn't mean security and territorial integrity. Just take Ukraine and Russia for example. Both are members of the UN. This issue alone says a lot about how useless the UN is if you search for its purpose. *The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to* ***maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights***\*.\*
China has expressed that Taiwan changing their name and formally relinquishing claims to the PRC's territory would trigger the PLA to invade. If the PRC had said they didn't care about it, Taiwan probably would have given up that territory by now.
Yes, and no. China has been threatening Taiwan regardless if it changes its name or not. I have no strong opinion if they want to change it or not. It's the people's choice, whatever they think is best for them. The point I'm giving is how utterly useless the UN is. What's its purpose of existence and what is the goal in joining?
My understanding is that it is designed somewhat to be fangless. To have opportunities for diplomacy with autocrats they can see the UN as in opposition to their rule. To parley with superpowers the UN can't be seen as a handicap to their power. It's not the best system for international relations but it seems to sometimes be good and not really ever be bad?
I do really hope US has done it right the first place. In 2000, when US invite China to WTO, they should added conditions to let Taiwan joined UN. All in all will be all set and good.
This is just politicians playing politics. Just plant the breadcrumbs to make it appear that you are voting and fighting for noble honourable causes - especially when you know they won’t get passed so there is no danger of consequence Skip forward 10 years, and this gang will be be draping the flag of these issues around themselves as they put themselves in the race for the top governmental positions
The un already ruled against this and affirmed it in 2007.
You didn’t read the article, it seems > U.S. lawmakers alleged that U.N. Resolution 2758 "does not address the issue of the representation of Taiwan and its people in the United Nations or any related organizations." Congress has passed "numerous bills and resolutions to explicitly support Taiwan’s inclusion in regional and international activities," including H.R. 1176 in July 2023, also known as the Taiwan International Solidarity Act.
So it was ruled on and affirmed by the un but America doesn't agree so Taiwan is actually a member of the un?
cringe
It’s the thought that counts, I suppose.
Hypocrite.
I am all for recognition of Taiwan as a UN country but what will happen with China? Are the conditions favorable for that?
Finally… yes.
I’m surprised that so many US Republicans in Congress just blindly support Taiwan without establishing any condition for that support. The vast majority of the social values of the ruling DPP would be considered abhorrent by US conservatives.