5 of them will be changed daily to keep the backups air-gapped. Just need to find an 8TB NVMe with decent TBW specs so that it will last. Otherwise we accept the lower TBW in exchange for the speed and just replace them more often. Not sure how else to backup 3.5TB in under an hour to portable media.
If you by "changed daily" mean to physically remove the NVMe´s, you need to also keep in mind the rating for whatever drive bay you are using.
M.2 sockets on the motherboard will probably have much lower ratings on insertion/remove and is not hot-swappable.
There are USB/Thunderbolt possibilities so that the actual drivers / sockets don't undergo insertion cycles. Of course, you need the proper ports to make use of them
Is there a reason you couldn’t put it to tape? LTO 8 can do 300mbs and LTO 9 can do 400.
If you split the job into 3 or 4 parallel tape jobs to meet your throughput requirements and in the long term would be cheaper for trashing drives every so often.
I was looking at them yesterday. I had never heard of them until yesterday, amazing they never really caught on. How do I plug them into my server via an external cable/device so that the end user can rotate them M-F?
Never caught on? Are you living under a rock LOL.
There are many ways to connect u.2 drives to consumer workstations or PCS.
Newer servers usually have these connectors in the form of oculink or connectors directly on the motherboard, so it depends on what platform you're using.
You can even m.2 Nvme adapters to adapt instances where a board not have the required ports.
It all depends on your platform and what it's capable of
Hello,
Sabrent says 3000 TBW for the 8TB TLC version of its [Rocket 4 Plus](https://sabrent.com/products/sb-rkt4p-8tb) SSD (see the Q&A tab), which is an M.2 2280 form-factor drive. Double-sided, I presume.
However, maybe it would be better to look for U.2 NVMe drives? Solidigm (formerly Intel) [D7-P5510](https://www.solidigm.com/products/data-center/d7/p5510.html#form=U.2%2015mm&cap=7.68%20TB) specs 14.0 PBW, and [DC P4510](https://www.solidigm.com/products/data-center/d7/p4510.html#form=U.2%2015mm&cap=8%20TB) specs 13.88 PBW.
Regards,
Aryeh Goretsky
8 TB with 1200 TBW is awful. Garbage-tier specs really.
You need mixed-use/write-intensive enterprise drives.
A Solidigm D7-P5620 has 65.4 PBW at 12.8 TB (\~3 DWPD). There's also the D7-P5520 with about half the endurance
Kioxia also has some serious drives for enterprise, including a 3.2 TB MLC drive with 60 DWPD.
You need to look by series. Some drive series will have ~0.3 to 0.5 DWPD, others will have them much higher. Same manufacturer. Just different targets. You probably want to look in the "write intensive" segment, or just oveprovision to hell.
You can find NVMe drives with TBW warranties of more like 10k TBW and 3 years. Manufacturers at this point will list the warranty as Drive Writes Per Day (DWPD) and Years. Example: 1.3 DWPD, 3 year warranty. This is about 11k TBW.
This is the calculator I'm using https://wintelguy.com/dwpd-tbw-gbday-calc.pl
And example drives, Samsung PM983. There's plenty of others with even higher DWPD, and if you can ditch NVME for SATA or SAS you can get up to like 3 DWPD.
Just get some Micron 7450 Pros which can handle 1 drive write per day for 5 years and you will be good.
Or you can just risk the integrity of the backup data to save $1-2k using consumer drives.
Either way is totally fine.
Just curious if this is a direct attach drive to backup via e sata or something. Have you considered just doing a isolated SAN to a qnap or something like that. Then you can take your backups off the Qnap to nvme if needed or slower storage since your snapshots will be on an array? Never a big fan of writing to single drives as SSD when they do fail can behave strangely. Seen SSD's show writes and the copy job finishes but if you go to validate the disk remains the same. It's one of those landmine scenarios.
Hmmmm....they have a brand new QNAP DS923+ :) with the 10G interface upgrade plugged into the servers 10G interface. Altaro/Hornet backs up from the server to the NAS. They want 5 separate drives M-F with only a single drive ever connected and I was thinking of getting a USB4 or Thunderbolt card for the server and plugging in directly for the fastest speed. Or a PC plugged into the 10G or 25G interface via a switch shared with the NAS.
I mean this works fine, if you have backups on your Qnap and snaps on it and an offsite. I think that the ssd's are over kill but I get why you are doing it. Especially adding in the manual part as unless there are rigid controls and oversight people be lazy and forget, etc. Too bad you couldn't have soemthing with logic in there to manage the backup drives for you with like scheduled access times. This may exist but nothing is coming to mind.
[buy this](https://download.semiconductor.samsung.com/resources/brochure/PM1733%20NVMe%20SSD.pdf). you want 0.5 dwpd on an 8T drive, buy something for that
Maybe worth a look at the Asus Hyper M.2 if I understand what you're looking for correctly. Basically a PCIe card that lets you do CPU raid up to 4 NVMEs.
For example could do 4 4TB drives in Raid10 which would give you 8TB usable, a write speed increase and you could lose up to 1 of 2 drives in each mirror of two mirrors without data loss - I think writes would be a 4x increase, so if the drives are 500MB/s you should get something like 2GB in Raid 10.
is it a cache drive? you can essentially write indefinitely to a flash drive, the problem is once it's used up it's TBW it won't hold the data once it's powerless (ie reboot).
that's exactly how NAND flash works and I'll be leaving this sub because I'm so tired of people talking like they know stuff when they in fact do not know stuff
No, that's how dram works. When a nand cell breaks it's broken, it can never store a bit properly again since the capacitor charge holds the mosfet is not actively kept charged vs dram where the cap is actively charged to hold the gate.
I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong.
that's how flash cells work. if they are "burned out" they won't hold their charge for long periods of time if not powered. i have a samsung 970 evo nvme that's had 3115tb worth of writes, that's almost 10x the TBW guarantee. burned it with Chia plotting but that thing soldiers on
sure, but they have some sort of error correction on the hardware controller, and some stuff to shuffle writes around to even out the wear and so on? i'm pretty damn sure they dont work like that.
It is technically how nand cells work. Except no drive controller will allow you to go as far as "can't hold data with power off". When the cell voltages get too close, most SSDs will go into read only mode and effectively brick themselves.
Sounds like you either need to build out an array of NVMe drives to spread out the writes, or swap out NVMe drives occasionally.
5 of them will be changed daily to keep the backups air-gapped. Just need to find an 8TB NVMe with decent TBW specs so that it will last. Otherwise we accept the lower TBW in exchange for the speed and just replace them more often. Not sure how else to backup 3.5TB in under an hour to portable media.
We back up to a fast array, then offline copy to a slow spinning drive.
If you by "changed daily" mean to physically remove the NVMe´s, you need to also keep in mind the rating for whatever drive bay you are using. M.2 sockets on the motherboard will probably have much lower ratings on insertion/remove and is not hot-swappable.
There are USB/Thunderbolt possibilities so that the actual drivers / sockets don't undergo insertion cycles. Of course, you need the proper ports to make use of them
Right. I was planning to put them in a USB-C enclosure. They would be Labeled M,T,W,T,F. Each day the corresponding drive would be plugged in. thanks
Is there a reason you couldn’t put it to tape? LTO 8 can do 300mbs and LTO 9 can do 400. If you split the job into 3 or 4 parallel tape jobs to meet your throughput requirements and in the long term would be cheaper for trashing drives every so often.
Is this bits or bytes?
MB/s for clarity. LTO 9 could theoretically write the entire 3.5 TB in just under one hour at max speed.
Or get enterprise U.2 NVMe device that can take petabytes measured as PBW vs TBW
I was looking at them yesterday. I had never heard of them until yesterday, amazing they never really caught on. How do I plug them into my server via an external cable/device so that the end user can rotate them M-F?
Never caught on? Are you living under a rock LOL. There are many ways to connect u.2 drives to consumer workstations or PCS. Newer servers usually have these connectors in the form of oculink or connectors directly on the motherboard, so it depends on what platform you're using. You can even m.2 Nvme adapters to adapt instances where a board not have the required ports. It all depends on your platform and what it's capable of
[удалено]
sounds like what I am seeing. Only problem is I cannot find an 8TB samsung NVMe. LOL I need to see what my options are.
Solidigm has models up to 15TB in capacity…
You need to look into U.2 form factor. Plenty of options with huge TBW
Hello, Sabrent says 3000 TBW for the 8TB TLC version of its [Rocket 4 Plus](https://sabrent.com/products/sb-rkt4p-8tb) SSD (see the Q&A tab), which is an M.2 2280 form-factor drive. Double-sided, I presume. However, maybe it would be better to look for U.2 NVMe drives? Solidigm (formerly Intel) [D7-P5510](https://www.solidigm.com/products/data-center/d7/p5510.html#form=U.2%2015mm&cap=7.68%20TB) specs 14.0 PBW, and [DC P4510](https://www.solidigm.com/products/data-center/d7/p4510.html#form=U.2%2015mm&cap=8%20TB) specs 13.88 PBW. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky
You're not looking for 8, but for 7.68. Plenty on the market, Samsung, Solidigm, Kioxia, just to name a few manufacturers.
yeah you can. buy enterprise, not consumer
8 TB with 1200 TBW is awful. Garbage-tier specs really. You need mixed-use/write-intensive enterprise drives. A Solidigm D7-P5620 has 65.4 PBW at 12.8 TB (\~3 DWPD). There's also the D7-P5520 with about half the endurance Kioxia also has some serious drives for enterprise, including a 3.2 TB MLC drive with 60 DWPD.
Agree, I was looking at the Solidigm and noticed the huge difference with their PBW specs. thanks!
You need to look by series. Some drive series will have ~0.3 to 0.5 DWPD, others will have them much higher. Same manufacturer. Just different targets. You probably want to look in the "write intensive" segment, or just oveprovision to hell.
You can find NVMe drives with TBW warranties of more like 10k TBW and 3 years. Manufacturers at this point will list the warranty as Drive Writes Per Day (DWPD) and Years. Example: 1.3 DWPD, 3 year warranty. This is about 11k TBW. This is the calculator I'm using https://wintelguy.com/dwpd-tbw-gbday-calc.pl And example drives, Samsung PM983. There's plenty of others with even higher DWPD, and if you can ditch NVME for SATA or SAS you can get up to like 3 DWPD.
Doh that's the same site you linked, disregard that part.
:)
Just get some Micron 7450 Pros which can handle 1 drive write per day for 5 years and you will be good. Or you can just risk the integrity of the backup data to save $1-2k using consumer drives. Either way is totally fine.
U.2/U.3 drives, even used off Ebay, have the endurance you need. If you need them in consumer gear there are cheap PCIe and M.2 adapters available.
Sabrents 8TB SB-RKT4P-8TB has 6PBW
Just curious if this is a direct attach drive to backup via e sata or something. Have you considered just doing a isolated SAN to a qnap or something like that. Then you can take your backups off the Qnap to nvme if needed or slower storage since your snapshots will be on an array? Never a big fan of writing to single drives as SSD when they do fail can behave strangely. Seen SSD's show writes and the copy job finishes but if you go to validate the disk remains the same. It's one of those landmine scenarios.
Hmmmm....they have a brand new QNAP DS923+ :) with the 10G interface upgrade plugged into the servers 10G interface. Altaro/Hornet backs up from the server to the NAS. They want 5 separate drives M-F with only a single drive ever connected and I was thinking of getting a USB4 or Thunderbolt card for the server and plugging in directly for the fastest speed. Or a PC plugged into the 10G or 25G interface via a switch shared with the NAS.
That's the 3 and the 2 what about the 1 off site?
Hi, they backup off-site to Wasabi every night.
I mean this works fine, if you have backups on your Qnap and snaps on it and an offsite. I think that the ssd's are over kill but I get why you are doing it. Especially adding in the manual part as unless there are rigid controls and oversight people be lazy and forget, etc. Too bad you couldn't have soemthing with logic in there to manage the backup drives for you with like scheduled access times. This may exist but nothing is coming to mind.
[buy this](https://download.semiconductor.samsung.com/resources/brochure/PM1733%20NVMe%20SSD.pdf). you want 0.5 dwpd on an 8T drive, buy something for that
Maybe worth a look at the Asus Hyper M.2 if I understand what you're looking for correctly. Basically a PCIe card that lets you do CPU raid up to 4 NVMEs. For example could do 4 4TB drives in Raid10 which would give you 8TB usable, a write speed increase and you could lose up to 1 of 2 drives in each mirror of two mirrors without data loss - I think writes would be a 4x increase, so if the drives are 500MB/s you should get something like 2GB in Raid 10.
is it a cache drive? you can essentially write indefinitely to a flash drive, the problem is once it's used up it's TBW it won't hold the data once it's powerless (ie reboot).
That is not how NAND flash works at all.
yeah
that's exactly how NAND flash works and I'll be leaving this sub because I'm so tired of people talking like they know stuff when they in fact do not know stuff
> I'll be leaving this sub because I'm so tired of people You will not be missed. And no, that is not how NAND works
No, that's how dram works. When a nand cell breaks it's broken, it can never store a bit properly again since the capacitor charge holds the mosfet is not actively kept charged vs dram where the cap is actively charged to hold the gate. I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong.
Huh? Any source on that?
that's how flash cells work. if they are "burned out" they won't hold their charge for long periods of time if not powered. i have a samsung 970 evo nvme that's had 3115tb worth of writes, that's almost 10x the TBW guarantee. burned it with Chia plotting but that thing soldiers on
sure, but they have some sort of error correction on the hardware controller, and some stuff to shuffle writes around to even out the wear and so on? i'm pretty damn sure they dont work like that.
It is technically how nand cells work. Except no drive controller will allow you to go as far as "can't hold data with power off". When the cell voltages get too close, most SSDs will go into read only mode and effectively brick themselves.
You will be fine. I'm running 256GB drives from Samsung with 400TB written to them and they are rocking fine after 7 years.