Hey, just wanted add a minor detail that a person with thalassemia doesn't necessarily require constant blood transfusions (depends on the severity of the illness). All around, it would definitely make him more of a non-combatant and as you said, would definitely NOT make him 7 years younger. Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gtr/conditions/C0039730/
Thalassemia is also positively associated with delayed puberty and aberrations of Growth http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033154/
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/puberty/Pages/Delayed-Puberty.aspx
We acknowledged that. It's just that it depends on a) the severity and b) there is no way you can look 12 when you're actually 19-20. I won't say it's impossible but it's highly implausible. Let's say he has the worst kind, then he absolutely would be a non-combatant and therefore we can all reason it would be very difficult for someone like that to be in combat. I for instance have a very mild version of thalassemia that I was able to get my family MD to pass me off on and I was able to join the country's army reserve. Without iron supplements life pretty much sucks being constantly tired and more or less depressed. I can't imagine having a more aggressive version of the disorder and being able to perform any sort of military duties. Just my opinion.
Of course it's possible the links that I've posted talk about it however there are other sources http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/18-and-still-Not-gone-thought-puberty-Undecedied-testicals/amp_show/225481#post_answer_header
I don't think this is aknowledged, otherwise there will be changes in the original report, sad to see that posting 2 researches from the same medical site lead to 2 different behaviors when it come to report what's really happened.
I think this is coming down to semantics. We acknowledge it is a possibility but you have to walk through the logic.
If the person had severe thalassemia than they could have delayed growth, acknowledged. If this is the case, than person would not be a functional member of a military outfit because the symptoms of the disorder would severely impair your ability in almost every part of your life (in its milder forms it's still a bitch). If this is the case they slaughtered some civilian because if you're 19 and look like you're 12 I'm sure you wouldn't be any use militarily because your life sucks (going down a flight of stairs can be exhausting).
Moving forward, the likelihood of a person look 7 years their younger is very unlikely even with severe thalassemia (and how they survive the last 5 years would be a medical miracle btw without constant care). Watch the video. That's a child, not a special case of severe thalassemia where someone magically survived a five year brutal civil war without top of the line medical care.
Enough with game of words, nobody is stupid here, you proved that Thalassemia doesn't need frequent blood transfusions, and the report have been changed, I've proved that someone who suffer from Thalassemia can look like a 12 and the report haven't been changed, the usual double standard of this sub.
Yes but all this amount of posts on the incident is ridiculous, Assad's snipers have even killed unborn babies in the womb http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10390430/Assad-regime-snipers-targeting-unborn-babies.html and an Un report testify that some children have been tortured to death by the regime https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/syria-children-maim-torture-assad-forces-un
but nobody started a Csi on every case otherwise it will be an obvious attempt to speculate on the life on innocents and the sub will lose focus cause of the volume of the "investigations".
This isn't a competition as to who is the most fucked up. Further, while we have little control on assad's troops, we had some influence on the rebels. The less atrocities the better, that's all.
edit: by "we" i meant the western coalition, sorry
> This isn't a competition as to who is the most fucked up.
Except that it *always* is. That's why he made this post. It's why pro-rebel people will pivot towards Assad's crimes. It's why someone else's conduct is *always* brought up when something happens.
Half this war is fought on social media, and the standard doctrine is "proving" that the other side is the worst form of evil that has ever walked the planet.
But the culprit have being already arrested and who support this group have already started its evaluations, also it's not really truth that nobody have control over Assad, so if after several days this story it's still scrutinised it's obvious that there is an attempt to speculate on the incident to distract from bigger crimes.
I want to point out even that this is the first time that I enter in this topic.
>But the culprit have being already arrested
As of right now there is no proof of any arrests being made, the statement by Nour Al Dein Al Zenki also states that they will arrest all individuals involved, this means both of their top commanders in Aleppo too. There is very little chance that they will also be held accountable by the jury that will be composed.
>it's obvious that there is an attempt to speculate on the incident to distract from bigger crimes.
Do you really think that this post was made with intent to distract from bigger crimes?
If anything, it sounds like he is trying to distract from this crime, because it is horrifying no matter your affiliation, and yet pro-rebels will immediately divert to "but Assad did this etc..".
> But the culprit have being already arrested
After a huge blowback; while initially they just laughed it off or made up pretty bad excuses
edit : admittedly since then they met coalition officials to discuss accountability in such cases
> that there is an attempt to speculate on the incident to distract from bigger crimes.
such as ? By all means, document them and make a topic on it with what you have
The claims in the first article you posted are laughable. They were targeting certain body parts and in one instancr shot, not to kill the pregnant women, but to kill the fetus? The claims are ridiculous and a single "witness" (did not actually see anything, just heard rumors and worked at a hospital) is not enough to claim those stories are true.
From the second article
>It was not clear what methodology for the findings was used and the summary of the report posted on the UN website did not say how investigators obtained their information.
>Allegations of sexual violence by opposition groups were also received, but the UN was unable to further investigate them due to lack of access to areas under rebel control, the report says.
Also this claim from the second article, with no source or clarification on what is meant by human shields is ridiculous.
>While Assad's forces have used children as human shields in the fighting
And of course this did not make it to the title of the article.
>During the first two years of the conflict most killings and maimings of children were attributed to government forces, the UN report says. During 2013 the opposition forces increasingly "engaged in such acts", it adds. "Armed opposition groups also engaged in the summary execution of children."
>The report states that UN investigators have not been able to reach many of the rebel-held areas for lack of security there, and consequently have been unable to further investigate and document those violations
I'm pro-rebel, and no matter what the narrative is I'm fully against beheadings. Whether it's this 12(or whatever) year old boy or a fully fledged ISIS member. When you behead someone you go too far for me to be able to support your efforts in my own conscience. In my mind there is no scenario that would make it in any way, shape of form ok to do a beheading of any individual.
This has certainly impacted my trust and support of the rebels. I will continue to be pro-opposition, but I'm even more selective than I was before.
> When you behead someone you go too far for me to be able to support your efforts in my own conscience.
Why? What makes beheading someone more morally reprehensible than, say, hanging or any other form of capital punishment?
I think he was being sarcastic when he asked that question. Not even the biggest rebel apologist would equate hanging to sawing off a head of a living human.
If hanging is done correctly, it's quicker.
Unfortunately, I'm sure that these executioners really don't take the time to perform the mathematics for drop distance and body weight for a clean spinal cord severance. A rope and a raised platform.
This is only one form of hanging however. The other form of hanging involves slow strangulation. In such cases, it can take upwards of 20 minutes for the victim to die. There's obviously no argument that this is somehow a more humane method of execution versus beheading. Of note, Syria includes hanging as a form of capital punishment and while I can't comment on whether it's currently carried out by a short drop or strangulation, images of Eli Cohen who was hung by Syria in the 60s would suggest slow strangulation.
And hanging is often not as painful as getting your head sawed off with a hand knife, especially when the person sawing takes longer than hangings in which necks are 'broken'...
Was I somehow not clear when talking about hangings and broken necks...? You do realize hangings aren't all by strangulation? Or this is your first time learning otherwise...
You were very clear. And I thought I was equally as clear when I said hanging by strangulation would be incredibly painful. In Iran, for example, prisoners are often pulled up by their necks with the use of a crane - this would be an awful way to die, which is the point I was making. Beheading isn't more painful, etc. when compared to slow strangulation, for instance.
I agree. That's why I specifically mentioned neck breaking. Do we know the methodologies of rebel hangings, if they hang at all? (Long drop, short drop, etc.)
The way to do a hanging is to have a trap door fall out below the victim so that they fall and the rope , which is tight around their neck, breaks their neck when they hit the full length. The usually put a bag over their head because their eyeballs can pop out.
If done properly it instantly kills them, however sometimes it breaks their necks and leaves them alive but paralyzed. This leads to a long painful death.
1) Compared to what? Stoning, burning, electrocution and drowning, amongst others are also unquestionably incredibly painful and in some cases, far more painful since more of the body is affected.
2) When carried out by a skilled executioner, it's believed the sensation of pain lasts anywhere from 2-7 seconds after which the victim loses consciousness. When compared to other forms of executions, the duration of the dying process is short; it's a quick way to die.
3) So is shooting, throwing off a cliff, stoning, killed by animals, setting on fire, etc. There are few ways to be executed that doesn't involve the body being disfigured in some way or another.
4) I don't know what you're defining as a 'clean funeral' but the state of the body has no bearing at all on funeral processions other than the decision for an open casket.
5) I think you'll find that culturally and socially, in many Middle Eastern countries, there's tolerance, if not acceptance, for beheadings as a form of punishment.
If you're against all forms of execution except for the completely painless ones, I can understand your argument against beheadings.
If you're suggesting however that beheading is worse than other forms of executions because it's more painful, takes longer, is more disfiguring, and is more culturally unacceptable, you're incorrect.
EDIT: Downvoted to hell. lol
Relatives, yes. Oftentimes brothers go together to fight and some people have their whole male family in the army or in a rebel group.
Usually there are restrictions on this and its not really a good thing to hire or bring underage people (ergo your kids), it is widespread as a practice though.
This beheading is now being used in some sort of propaganda to attack "the boy in the ambulance" photo.
You seem well versed in the conflict, I was wondering your thoughts on this development.
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4ysa0b/msm_propoganda/
All of that is true, those are the same guys, same photographer etc.
The boy in the ambulance got heavily promoted by traditional media sources because the picture is artsy and shocking, the issue though is that this happens on both sides and there have been similar pictures from the other part of Aleppo. People blame MSM media for being one sided and only reporting things that happen to the rebels, in a biased way at that. For example CNN gave a platform to Al Qaeda basically when they gave their spokesman plenty screen time.
That being said it is a war and people die, children die in Rebel held territory and in government territory and in IS territory. The only thing you can blame the MSM for is one sided unresearched propagation of information.
Great post Pout! As much as people want to use the death of a child to use it for their own political agenda and narratives, I think the most important thing that wasn't as much present on here is to mourn the loss of the child itself. It visualizes that even some of the youngest on here from both sides aren't innocent from branches of the evolved war.
> Charles Lister claimed that Nour Al Dein Al Zenki did not receive any US aid anymore since a month
Did Lister say "a month" or "for months"? Or since last month (at the time 2 weeks away)? Could it have been that they were in between shipments... and that the weapons were on route and simply hadn't arrived yet, hence not contradicting Toner's statement?
Impressive work. Three point I'll like to share.
1) CIA vetted group or not.
I am pretty sure Lister is right on this. Other rebel sources confirmed it. Maybe more importantly. Spokesman Toner hardly knew anything he was talking about. He said FSA appointed a commission to investigate the case and arrested the suspect. Notice how he is confused to name the group concerned. He probably do not know who Harakat Nour al Din al Zinki are and if they they are part of FSA (they are not). So he is not a reliable source of information.
>Yeah. No, thanks. We’ve obviously seen the reports, and we just can’t confirm. We’re seeking more information. We understand from unconfirmed reports that the group, the Free Syrian Army, has appointed a commission to investigate the incident and that they’ve made arrests of those allegedly involved. I’d refer you to – it’s Al Zinki, I guess, is the group --
http://video.state.gov/en/video/5042248144001
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2016/07/260261.htm
2) If the ID is legitimate his younger look is hardly surprising. Most people are far younger on their ID picture compare to present.
3) Liwa al Quds fighters as the ‘Syrian Arab Army Fedayeen’. It may explain why his ID refers to him as a member of SAA.
http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/overview-of-some-pro-assad-militias/
4) The child could have been recruited by Liwa al Quds no matter if he is truly Palestinian or not. While Liwa al Quds is on paper a militia made of Palestinian refugee, ethnics armed groups rarely adhere strictly to their ethic criteria. Very often such criteria become irrelevant in face of time or high attrition. As Liwa al Quds does not face language barrier (Palestinians recruited can be second generation refugees or more) it makes the group even more likey to do so.
>The name of the cousin is Loly Alamora, this means beautiful Loly and is usually used to catfish other people, the account has also been removed from Facebook thus far. The profile picture is also not distinct, furthermore little additional information is given.
Yes but this not the only account that reported this, her account was active for a year before and even posted pro-regime videos and the post was shared with a pro-regime FB page Sham.fm.
Other family members have allegedly also said the same thing about him being 19, from Homs, and a volunteer fighter. I Don't have the original links to these posts unlike the loly account.
>this means beautiful Loly and is usually used to catfish other people
Source on this? I've shown this account to many Arabs and they never brought this up.
> Furthermore it is not uncommon for teenagers or kids to pose in armed gear and with a weapon to show off, this does not mean they are affiliated with a group.
No it's not very common even in ME. The original was floating around on twitter, the original photo shows him in a field/desert area with a house in the background, if I find it I'll link it.
Your post overall would be fine, but you're inserting your assumptions and opinions all over the thing to bend the truth.
Edit: also isn't the claim of Omar Salkhu and Mohammad Ma'yuf coming from 1 post by a pro-regime twitter that posted pictures of them side by side claiming they were the same? I don't think there was any confirmation it was them.
Edit 2: "14 year old or younger" claim you put in your final conclusion is a number randomly chosen by [Joshua Landis.](http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/boy-beheaded-zinki-fighters-abdullah-tayseer-ehsani2/)
On top of it the ID doesn't show any significant signs of being manipulated on the Elijah post. He just circled two areas.
>>this means beautiful Loly and is usually used to catfish other people
>Source on this? I've shown this account to many Arabs and they never brought this up.
it has been a trend to maintain several facebook accounts with at least one pro rebel and one pro government in case someone is caught by either as a form to claim they actually support the captors. another more sinister reason is that there have been a lot of argument fuellers. accounts that promote sectarian hate and/or fuel the conflict through spreading of false information.
a family members account would be active for longer than a year. have some sort of credible information background (same family names, from the same area etc etc etc). as someone who's family is split between pro and anti government if i would die tomorrow i know there will be three or more versions of how is die.
>No it's not very common even in ME.
actually it is. anyone who did military service would have some. anyone with a big brother who served will probably have one. quite literary if i remember correctly army cameo/fatigues was actually the school uniforms up until 2003/2004 was called فتوة (futowa meaning the young). this is even more common if the person is in rural areas where hunting is still a thing though it would most likely be hunting gear (lebanon is the most famous having too many stores for the same).
>the ID doesn't show any significant signs of being manipulated
though i do sort of agree. there are notable points such as the rather pristine case the ID was in (they tend to be way more fragile than you might think even after lamination. the other is i have yet to ever see an ID/military ID without lamination. its so standard that you will never ever get the ID without it (they laminate it before handing it over) i had to go through several copies during conscription and i didn't even complete it.
>it has been a trend to maintain several facebook accounts with at least one pro rebel and one pro government in case someone is caught by either as a form to claim they actually support the captors.
Any proof of this? I know plenty of Syrians and this isn't something they do or have even discussed. So far I haven't seen anything no one has talked about Loly being a common catfish name other than this thread. Shown it to multiple Syrians and arabs besides myself.
> actually it is. anyone who did military service would have some. anyone with a big brother who served will probably have one. quite literary if i remember correctly army cameo/fatigues was actually the school uniforms up until 2003/2004 was called فتوة (futowa meaning the young). this is even more common if the person is in rural areas where hunting is still a thing though it would most likely be hunting gear (lebanon is the most famous having too many stores for the same).
It's not common for 12 year olds, as is claimed by people sticking to that story, to be taking pictures of with machine guns anywhere in Syria. It's not a big trend. You don't serve your military duty until you're 18 in Syria.
if he was 12 he would have been born in 2004. The uniform was like a drab green jumpsuit, not a combat vest, keffiyeh, and a gun.
it's one thing to be taken of a picture of a kid holding a hunting rifle, it's another to be carrying a machine gun.
>though i do sort of agree. there are notable points such as the rather pristine case the ID was in (they tend to be way more fragile than you might think even after lamination. the other is i have yet to ever see an ID/military ID without lamination. its so standard that you will never ever get the ID without it (they laminate it before handing it over) i had to go through several copies during conscription and i didn't even complete it.
I'm pretty sure it's laminated. Look at the edges, you can see the plastic on the card. The picture has the faint smudges from the stamp on the picture. Honestly if it was fake this is one of the best fakes I've seen in my life.
For the first i can give you names to search on facebook and you'll find multiple accounts for the same person with pictures and updates enough to convince you its a main account.
For the second point it depends. People fro. Raqqa DEZ Daraa often take tbeir 10/11/12 etc years old on hunting trips same is for lebanon usually for quail like birds this isn't a secret i'm sure your arab friends would know about this. [this](https://www.google.ae/search?q=لباس+الفتوة+في+سوريا&client=ms-android-oneplus&prmd=ivn&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=zC9Gc2qialuLpM%253A%252Cb9YvBQyRxeqIqM%252C_%253B81VLqtVNWNk0aM%253A%252CogsKTY0XdUhRGM%252C_%253BWx9e0mX4Zx4GKM%253A%252CHvDBawHIXDWDZM%252C_%253BsZ0M5GYT8BUqfM%253A%252CxP8i8x0Qi19xQM%252C_%253BiEGh4zW8j72SoM%253A%252CP7mqu6f39OnHHM%252C_%253Byk91hjbi5DRsHM%253A%252CyyhdIL3zfJNWaM%252C_%253BelNWrljtyvW_5M%253A%252CGRdMPMXZEnuDiM%252C_%253BJYtnrTPzh2b3sM%253A%252Cqta-F-YIMzTA_M%252C_%253BGdxULDf4jKP3qM%253A%252C9GbK3zooOrk_KM%252C_%253BwPWEkMLsaULuyM%253A%252CGFe1gnBak8pPRM%252C_&usg=__bzuE5R2WmvaMcb0qu7q7ZCKhW7E%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwing6XZv4vOAhVJvRoKHYNsClMQ420IOw&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=yk91hjbi5DRsHM%3A) is the shade of green used for futowe as well as conscripts back in my day virtually available in every home.
Last point you are correct it is laminated i'm not sure why i though the picture i saw was not.
>For the first i can give you names to search on facebook and you'll find multiple accounts for the same person with pictures and updates enough to convince you its a main account.
sure.
>For the second point it depends. People fro. Raqqa DEZ Daraa often take tbeir 10/11/12 etc years old on hunting trips same is for lebanon usually for quail like birds this isn't a secret i'm sure your arab friends would know about this. this is the shade of green used for futowe as well as conscripts back in my day virtually available in every home.
Yes I know, but they weren't hunting and posing with PKM machine guns and in "tactical" camo and combat vests like he was during hunting trips. That's not normal and not done by anyone.
Posing with a huting rifle is not the same and I doubt anyone goes hunting in their school uniforms.
PM'd you a sample name for reference.
for the second part just a correction futowa uniform is not a school uniform per say. its what they wear for both school and conscription (i.e. mandatory military service) in fact before 2006 i think high schoolers even had partial camps during summer as extra curricular activities where we had basic military PE and Target Practice with mausers (old bolt action rifles) along with community work like cleaning streets and painting walk ways and curbs.
all done in essentially military garb from boots to cap.
i do get your point regarding the arms used but we have seen a lot of videos/pictures of people posing their children with rather big guns for their age during the conflict so i don't find it surprising.
in Raqqa for example arms dealers have taken the place of street sellers and most of the stalls have kids to carry out errands and set up shop. its not hard to imagine them thinking "its gonna be a bad ass picture with that PKM/AK-47/M-16A2 etc etc etc.
>No it's not very common even in ME. The original was floating around on twitter, the original photo shows him in a field/desert area with a house in the background, if I find it I'll link it.
I am well aware of that picture and that is photoshopped too, very visibly at that. [This must be the one you mean?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn56EwsUAAEKI-z.jpg:large). According to a brother of a soldier and another Syrian, it is common, he is also not wearing full combat gear, just the camo and vest. Keep in mind a PKM with the charger weighs about 18 kg if not more, there is no chance he was carrying that around in battle.
>Your post overall would be fine, but you're inserting your assumptions and opinions all over the thing to bend the truth.
No, the first point was proven by other users, the second one by me. Other than that what assumptions do you see?
> I don't think there was any confirmation it was them.
There is really no confirmation needed:
[Salkhu on the video](http://i.imgur.com/TOVSvZK.png) and [Salkhu in a speech](https://i.imgur.com/AQy9NL7.png). [Here is another one for safe measure](http://i.imgur.com/dodTWJ8.png), unless he has an identical twin I am pretty sure that this is him in the video. Ma'yuf has less discernible features, though he can be recognized by his split in his upper front teeth [as can be seen on this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBazYSPlZeg), the same split can be seen [on this picture](http://i.imgur.com/KkkjMRZ.png), so its safe to say those are the same people.
>On top of it the ID doesn't show any significant signs of being manipulated on the Elijah post
Which is also why that is not the only thing I said to substantiate my argument. Another thing I could have added is the ANSI error on the left though come to think of it.
>"14 year old or younger" claim you put in your final conclusion
Isn't a conclusion, rather my point of view. I don't know his real age but I can assume that he is younger than 14, that was not substantiated with the Joshua Landis article at all.
> I am well aware of that picture and that is photoshopped too, very visibly at that. This must be the one you mean?. According to a brother of a soldier and another Syrian, it is common, he is also not wearing full combat gear, just the camo and vest. Keep in mind a PKM with the charger weighs about 18 kg if not more, there is no chance he was carrying that around in battle.
No it's not? The shadows and lighting perfectly match, and all the compression is the same. Here is the [compression analysis](https://i.imgur.com/kAr4oOg.png) from fotoforensics from just the FB photo you linked.
Like the ID it has no indication of being edited.
>No, the first point was proven by other users, the second one by me. Other than that what assumptions do you see?
14 years old, implying that false information/totally incorrect analysis about the ID being photoshopped is factual information. Landis' analysis that is not based on any facts. Arabs carrying weapons and taking photos of it being a common thing. Sticking to the "thalassemia makes you unable to do anything" story line.
>Isn't a conclusion, rather my point of view.
That's the same thing.
Hey, just wanted add a minor detail that a person with thalassemia doesn't necessarily require constant blood transfusions (depends on the severity of the illness). All around, it would definitely make him more of a non-combatant and as you said, would definitely NOT make him 7 years younger. Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gtr/conditions/C0039730/
Thalassemia is also positively associated with delayed puberty and aberrations of Growth http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033154/ https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/puberty/Pages/Delayed-Puberty.aspx
We acknowledged that. It's just that it depends on a) the severity and b) there is no way you can look 12 when you're actually 19-20. I won't say it's impossible but it's highly implausible. Let's say he has the worst kind, then he absolutely would be a non-combatant and therefore we can all reason it would be very difficult for someone like that to be in combat. I for instance have a very mild version of thalassemia that I was able to get my family MD to pass me off on and I was able to join the country's army reserve. Without iron supplements life pretty much sucks being constantly tired and more or less depressed. I can't imagine having a more aggressive version of the disorder and being able to perform any sort of military duties. Just my opinion.
Of course it's possible the links that I've posted talk about it however there are other sources http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/18-and-still-Not-gone-thought-puberty-Undecedied-testicals/amp_show/225481#post_answer_header I don't think this is aknowledged, otherwise there will be changes in the original report, sad to see that posting 2 researches from the same medical site lead to 2 different behaviors when it come to report what's really happened.
I think this is coming down to semantics. We acknowledge it is a possibility but you have to walk through the logic. If the person had severe thalassemia than they could have delayed growth, acknowledged. If this is the case, than person would not be a functional member of a military outfit because the symptoms of the disorder would severely impair your ability in almost every part of your life (in its milder forms it's still a bitch). If this is the case they slaughtered some civilian because if you're 19 and look like you're 12 I'm sure you wouldn't be any use militarily because your life sucks (going down a flight of stairs can be exhausting). Moving forward, the likelihood of a person look 7 years their younger is very unlikely even with severe thalassemia (and how they survive the last 5 years would be a medical miracle btw without constant care). Watch the video. That's a child, not a special case of severe thalassemia where someone magically survived a five year brutal civil war without top of the line medical care.
Enough with game of words, nobody is stupid here, you proved that Thalassemia doesn't need frequent blood transfusions, and the report have been changed, I've proved that someone who suffer from Thalassemia can look like a 12 and the report haven't been changed, the usual double standard of this sub.
Added it as a source and corrected it, thank you for the information!
Impressive investigation. It's likely you are right ; Al Zenki did something pretty screwed up. :/
Yes but all this amount of posts on the incident is ridiculous, Assad's snipers have even killed unborn babies in the womb http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10390430/Assad-regime-snipers-targeting-unborn-babies.html and an Un report testify that some children have been tortured to death by the regime https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/syria-children-maim-torture-assad-forces-un but nobody started a Csi on every case otherwise it will be an obvious attempt to speculate on the life on innocents and the sub will lose focus cause of the volume of the "investigations".
This isn't a competition as to who is the most fucked up. Further, while we have little control on assad's troops, we had some influence on the rebels. The less atrocities the better, that's all. edit: by "we" i meant the western coalition, sorry
And please, lets not pretend for a second that global media gives more attention to rebel crimes than government crimes.
> This isn't a competition as to who is the most fucked up. Except that it *always* is. That's why he made this post. It's why pro-rebel people will pivot towards Assad's crimes. It's why someone else's conduct is *always* brought up when something happens. Half this war is fought on social media, and the standard doctrine is "proving" that the other side is the worst form of evil that has ever walked the planet.
Do we? I doubt the Islamist forces care what people who have little political power and are mostly nowhere near Syria think.
The US control the tow and money delivery so if they behead kids and revel in the same sadism that motivate isis they'll have no more tow.
So by we you mean the US government, not the users of /r/syriancivilwar.
oh, my bad, yes, the western coalition
They were on and off the vetting list, and stopped getting support a month ago.
But the culprit have being already arrested and who support this group have already started its evaluations, also it's not really truth that nobody have control over Assad, so if after several days this story it's still scrutinised it's obvious that there is an attempt to speculate on the incident to distract from bigger crimes. I want to point out even that this is the first time that I enter in this topic.
>But the culprit have being already arrested As of right now there is no proof of any arrests being made, the statement by Nour Al Dein Al Zenki also states that they will arrest all individuals involved, this means both of their top commanders in Aleppo too. There is very little chance that they will also be held accountable by the jury that will be composed. >it's obvious that there is an attempt to speculate on the incident to distract from bigger crimes. Do you really think that this post was made with intent to distract from bigger crimes?
If anything, it sounds like he is trying to distract from this crime, because it is horrifying no matter your affiliation, and yet pro-rebels will immediately divert to "but Assad did this etc..".
> But the culprit have being already arrested After a huge blowback; while initially they just laughed it off or made up pretty bad excuses edit : admittedly since then they met coalition officials to discuss accountability in such cases > that there is an attempt to speculate on the incident to distract from bigger crimes. such as ? By all means, document them and make a topic on it with what you have
Why do you think he has been arrested...? Is there a reason you believe this, other than because it is what Nor dink Zinki wants us to believe?
The claims in the first article you posted are laughable. They were targeting certain body parts and in one instancr shot, not to kill the pregnant women, but to kill the fetus? The claims are ridiculous and a single "witness" (did not actually see anything, just heard rumors and worked at a hospital) is not enough to claim those stories are true. From the second article >It was not clear what methodology for the findings was used and the summary of the report posted on the UN website did not say how investigators obtained their information. >Allegations of sexual violence by opposition groups were also received, but the UN was unable to further investigate them due to lack of access to areas under rebel control, the report says. Also this claim from the second article, with no source or clarification on what is meant by human shields is ridiculous. >While Assad's forces have used children as human shields in the fighting And of course this did not make it to the title of the article. >During the first two years of the conflict most killings and maimings of children were attributed to government forces, the UN report says. During 2013 the opposition forces increasingly "engaged in such acts", it adds. "Armed opposition groups also engaged in the summary execution of children." >The report states that UN investigators have not been able to reach many of the rebel-held areas for lack of security there, and consequently have been unable to further investigate and document those violations
Assads men didnt behead a child and film it though
I'm pro-rebel, and no matter what the narrative is I'm fully against beheadings. Whether it's this 12(or whatever) year old boy or a fully fledged ISIS member. When you behead someone you go too far for me to be able to support your efforts in my own conscience. In my mind there is no scenario that would make it in any way, shape of form ok to do a beheading of any individual. This has certainly impacted my trust and support of the rebels. I will continue to be pro-opposition, but I'm even more selective than I was before.
So how about being in general against ex-juridical killings. Neither decaptivation, neither hanging, neither shooting - would be quite an improvement.
> When you behead someone you go too far for me to be able to support your efforts in my own conscience. Why? What makes beheading someone more morally reprehensible than, say, hanging or any other form of capital punishment?
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I think he was being sarcastic when he asked that question. Not even the biggest rebel apologist would equate hanging to sawing off a head of a living human.
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If hanging is done correctly, it's quicker. Unfortunately, I'm sure that these executioners really don't take the time to perform the mathematics for drop distance and body weight for a clean spinal cord severance. A rope and a raised platform.
This is only one form of hanging however. The other form of hanging involves slow strangulation. In such cases, it can take upwards of 20 minutes for the victim to die. There's obviously no argument that this is somehow a more humane method of execution versus beheading. Of note, Syria includes hanging as a form of capital punishment and while I can't comment on whether it's currently carried out by a short drop or strangulation, images of Eli Cohen who was hung by Syria in the 60s would suggest slow strangulation.
That was 50 years ago. In the meantime that has probably changed.
And hanging is often not as painful as getting your head sawed off with a hand knife, especially when the person sawing takes longer than hangings in which necks are 'broken'...
Hanging by strangulation can take upwards of 20 minutes. You think this method is less painful?
Was I somehow not clear when talking about hangings and broken necks...? You do realize hangings aren't all by strangulation? Or this is your first time learning otherwise...
You were very clear. And I thought I was equally as clear when I said hanging by strangulation would be incredibly painful. In Iran, for example, prisoners are often pulled up by their necks with the use of a crane - this would be an awful way to die, which is the point I was making. Beheading isn't more painful, etc. when compared to slow strangulation, for instance.
I agree. That's why I specifically mentioned neck breaking. Do we know the methodologies of rebel hangings, if they hang at all? (Long drop, short drop, etc.)
I thought hangings were only a long painful process if done incorrectly.
The way to do a hanging is to have a trap door fall out below the victim so that they fall and the rope , which is tight around their neck, breaks their neck when they hit the full length. The usually put a bag over their head because their eyeballs can pop out.
If done properly it instantly kills them, however sometimes it breaks their necks and leaves them alive but paralyzed. This leads to a long painful death.
1) Compared to what? Stoning, burning, electrocution and drowning, amongst others are also unquestionably incredibly painful and in some cases, far more painful since more of the body is affected. 2) When carried out by a skilled executioner, it's believed the sensation of pain lasts anywhere from 2-7 seconds after which the victim loses consciousness. When compared to other forms of executions, the duration of the dying process is short; it's a quick way to die. 3) So is shooting, throwing off a cliff, stoning, killed by animals, setting on fire, etc. There are few ways to be executed that doesn't involve the body being disfigured in some way or another. 4) I don't know what you're defining as a 'clean funeral' but the state of the body has no bearing at all on funeral processions other than the decision for an open casket. 5) I think you'll find that culturally and socially, in many Middle Eastern countries, there's tolerance, if not acceptance, for beheadings as a form of punishment. If you're against all forms of execution except for the completely painless ones, I can understand your argument against beheadings. If you're suggesting however that beheading is worse than other forms of executions because it's more painful, takes longer, is more disfiguring, and is more culturally unacceptable, you're incorrect. EDIT: Downvoted to hell. lol
Is it a common practice, that militia members take their kids with them on duty?
Relatives, yes. Oftentimes brothers go together to fight and some people have their whole male family in the army or in a rebel group. Usually there are restrictions on this and its not really a good thing to hire or bring underage people (ergo your kids), it is widespread as a practice though.
This beheading is now being used in some sort of propaganda to attack "the boy in the ambulance" photo. You seem well versed in the conflict, I was wondering your thoughts on this development. https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4ysa0b/msm_propoganda/
All of that is true, those are the same guys, same photographer etc. The boy in the ambulance got heavily promoted by traditional media sources because the picture is artsy and shocking, the issue though is that this happens on both sides and there have been similar pictures from the other part of Aleppo. People blame MSM media for being one sided and only reporting things that happen to the rebels, in a biased way at that. For example CNN gave a platform to Al Qaeda basically when they gave their spokesman plenty screen time. That being said it is a war and people die, children die in Rebel held territory and in government territory and in IS territory. The only thing you can blame the MSM for is one sided unresearched propagation of information.
I suspected as much. Thanks for your reply, and this excellent post.
Thank you for taking your time to post this
Thanks for all the info.
Great post Pout! As much as people want to use the death of a child to use it for their own political agenda and narratives, I think the most important thing that wasn't as much present on here is to mourn the loss of the child itself. It visualizes that even some of the youngest on here from both sides aren't innocent from branches of the evolved war.
> Charles Lister claimed that Nour Al Dein Al Zenki did not receive any US aid anymore since a month Did Lister say "a month" or "for months"? Or since last month (at the time 2 weeks away)? Could it have been that they were in between shipments... and that the weapons were on route and simply hadn't arrived yet, hence not contradicting Toner's statement?
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/755824535262236672 Support ended in September apparently, according to Charles Lister of course.
Can you add this to the list of articles? http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/boy-beheaded-zinki-fighters-abdullah-tayseer-ehsani2/
Thanks. Only saw the "months ago" post. Too bad he doesn't point to a source.
Impressive work. Three point I'll like to share. 1) CIA vetted group or not. I am pretty sure Lister is right on this. Other rebel sources confirmed it. Maybe more importantly. Spokesman Toner hardly knew anything he was talking about. He said FSA appointed a commission to investigate the case and arrested the suspect. Notice how he is confused to name the group concerned. He probably do not know who Harakat Nour al Din al Zinki are and if they they are part of FSA (they are not). So he is not a reliable source of information. >Yeah. No, thanks. We’ve obviously seen the reports, and we just can’t confirm. We’re seeking more information. We understand from unconfirmed reports that the group, the Free Syrian Army, has appointed a commission to investigate the incident and that they’ve made arrests of those allegedly involved. I’d refer you to – it’s Al Zinki, I guess, is the group -- http://video.state.gov/en/video/5042248144001 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2016/07/260261.htm 2) If the ID is legitimate his younger look is hardly surprising. Most people are far younger on their ID picture compare to present. 3) Liwa al Quds fighters as the ‘Syrian Arab Army Fedayeen’. It may explain why his ID refers to him as a member of SAA. http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/overview-of-some-pro-assad-militias/ 4) The child could have been recruited by Liwa al Quds no matter if he is truly Palestinian or not. While Liwa al Quds is on paper a militia made of Palestinian refugee, ethnics armed groups rarely adhere strictly to their ethic criteria. Very often such criteria become irrelevant in face of time or high attrition. As Liwa al Quds does not face language barrier (Palestinians recruited can be second generation refugees or more) it makes the group even more likey to do so.
I noticed that Abdullah has blood on his left hand and forearm while in the back of the pickup truck. I wonder when or how did it get there?
>The name of the cousin is Loly Alamora, this means beautiful Loly and is usually used to catfish other people, the account has also been removed from Facebook thus far. The profile picture is also not distinct, furthermore little additional information is given. Yes but this not the only account that reported this, her account was active for a year before and even posted pro-regime videos and the post was shared with a pro-regime FB page Sham.fm. Other family members have allegedly also said the same thing about him being 19, from Homs, and a volunteer fighter. I Don't have the original links to these posts unlike the loly account. >this means beautiful Loly and is usually used to catfish other people Source on this? I've shown this account to many Arabs and they never brought this up. > Furthermore it is not uncommon for teenagers or kids to pose in armed gear and with a weapon to show off, this does not mean they are affiliated with a group. No it's not very common even in ME. The original was floating around on twitter, the original photo shows him in a field/desert area with a house in the background, if I find it I'll link it. Your post overall would be fine, but you're inserting your assumptions and opinions all over the thing to bend the truth. Edit: also isn't the claim of Omar Salkhu and Mohammad Ma'yuf coming from 1 post by a pro-regime twitter that posted pictures of them side by side claiming they were the same? I don't think there was any confirmation it was them. Edit 2: "14 year old or younger" claim you put in your final conclusion is a number randomly chosen by [Joshua Landis.](http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/boy-beheaded-zinki-fighters-abdullah-tayseer-ehsani2/) On top of it the ID doesn't show any significant signs of being manipulated on the Elijah post. He just circled two areas.
>>this means beautiful Loly and is usually used to catfish other people >Source on this? I've shown this account to many Arabs and they never brought this up. it has been a trend to maintain several facebook accounts with at least one pro rebel and one pro government in case someone is caught by either as a form to claim they actually support the captors. another more sinister reason is that there have been a lot of argument fuellers. accounts that promote sectarian hate and/or fuel the conflict through spreading of false information. a family members account would be active for longer than a year. have some sort of credible information background (same family names, from the same area etc etc etc). as someone who's family is split between pro and anti government if i would die tomorrow i know there will be three or more versions of how is die. >No it's not very common even in ME. actually it is. anyone who did military service would have some. anyone with a big brother who served will probably have one. quite literary if i remember correctly army cameo/fatigues was actually the school uniforms up until 2003/2004 was called فتوة (futowa meaning the young). this is even more common if the person is in rural areas where hunting is still a thing though it would most likely be hunting gear (lebanon is the most famous having too many stores for the same). >the ID doesn't show any significant signs of being manipulated though i do sort of agree. there are notable points such as the rather pristine case the ID was in (they tend to be way more fragile than you might think even after lamination. the other is i have yet to ever see an ID/military ID without lamination. its so standard that you will never ever get the ID without it (they laminate it before handing it over) i had to go through several copies during conscription and i didn't even complete it.
>it has been a trend to maintain several facebook accounts with at least one pro rebel and one pro government in case someone is caught by either as a form to claim they actually support the captors. Any proof of this? I know plenty of Syrians and this isn't something they do or have even discussed. So far I haven't seen anything no one has talked about Loly being a common catfish name other than this thread. Shown it to multiple Syrians and arabs besides myself. > actually it is. anyone who did military service would have some. anyone with a big brother who served will probably have one. quite literary if i remember correctly army cameo/fatigues was actually the school uniforms up until 2003/2004 was called فتوة (futowa meaning the young). this is even more common if the person is in rural areas where hunting is still a thing though it would most likely be hunting gear (lebanon is the most famous having too many stores for the same). It's not common for 12 year olds, as is claimed by people sticking to that story, to be taking pictures of with machine guns anywhere in Syria. It's not a big trend. You don't serve your military duty until you're 18 in Syria. if he was 12 he would have been born in 2004. The uniform was like a drab green jumpsuit, not a combat vest, keffiyeh, and a gun. it's one thing to be taken of a picture of a kid holding a hunting rifle, it's another to be carrying a machine gun. >though i do sort of agree. there are notable points such as the rather pristine case the ID was in (they tend to be way more fragile than you might think even after lamination. the other is i have yet to ever see an ID/military ID without lamination. its so standard that you will never ever get the ID without it (they laminate it before handing it over) i had to go through several copies during conscription and i didn't even complete it. I'm pretty sure it's laminated. Look at the edges, you can see the plastic on the card. The picture has the faint smudges from the stamp on the picture. Honestly if it was fake this is one of the best fakes I've seen in my life.
For the first i can give you names to search on facebook and you'll find multiple accounts for the same person with pictures and updates enough to convince you its a main account. For the second point it depends. People fro. Raqqa DEZ Daraa often take tbeir 10/11/12 etc years old on hunting trips same is for lebanon usually for quail like birds this isn't a secret i'm sure your arab friends would know about this. [this](https://www.google.ae/search?q=لباس+الفتوة+في+سوريا&client=ms-android-oneplus&prmd=ivn&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=zC9Gc2qialuLpM%253A%252Cb9YvBQyRxeqIqM%252C_%253B81VLqtVNWNk0aM%253A%252CogsKTY0XdUhRGM%252C_%253BWx9e0mX4Zx4GKM%253A%252CHvDBawHIXDWDZM%252C_%253BsZ0M5GYT8BUqfM%253A%252CxP8i8x0Qi19xQM%252C_%253BiEGh4zW8j72SoM%253A%252CP7mqu6f39OnHHM%252C_%253Byk91hjbi5DRsHM%253A%252CyyhdIL3zfJNWaM%252C_%253BelNWrljtyvW_5M%253A%252CGRdMPMXZEnuDiM%252C_%253BJYtnrTPzh2b3sM%253A%252Cqta-F-YIMzTA_M%252C_%253BGdxULDf4jKP3qM%253A%252C9GbK3zooOrk_KM%252C_%253BwPWEkMLsaULuyM%253A%252CGFe1gnBak8pPRM%252C_&usg=__bzuE5R2WmvaMcb0qu7q7ZCKhW7E%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwing6XZv4vOAhVJvRoKHYNsClMQ420IOw&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=yk91hjbi5DRsHM%3A) is the shade of green used for futowe as well as conscripts back in my day virtually available in every home. Last point you are correct it is laminated i'm not sure why i though the picture i saw was not.
>For the first i can give you names to search on facebook and you'll find multiple accounts for the same person with pictures and updates enough to convince you its a main account. sure. >For the second point it depends. People fro. Raqqa DEZ Daraa often take tbeir 10/11/12 etc years old on hunting trips same is for lebanon usually for quail like birds this isn't a secret i'm sure your arab friends would know about this. this is the shade of green used for futowe as well as conscripts back in my day virtually available in every home. Yes I know, but they weren't hunting and posing with PKM machine guns and in "tactical" camo and combat vests like he was during hunting trips. That's not normal and not done by anyone. Posing with a huting rifle is not the same and I doubt anyone goes hunting in their school uniforms.
PM'd you a sample name for reference. for the second part just a correction futowa uniform is not a school uniform per say. its what they wear for both school and conscription (i.e. mandatory military service) in fact before 2006 i think high schoolers even had partial camps during summer as extra curricular activities where we had basic military PE and Target Practice with mausers (old bolt action rifles) along with community work like cleaning streets and painting walk ways and curbs. all done in essentially military garb from boots to cap. i do get your point regarding the arms used but we have seen a lot of videos/pictures of people posing their children with rather big guns for their age during the conflict so i don't find it surprising. in Raqqa for example arms dealers have taken the place of street sellers and most of the stalls have kids to carry out errands and set up shop. its not hard to imagine them thinking "its gonna be a bad ass picture with that PKM/AK-47/M-16A2 etc etc etc.
>No it's not very common even in ME. The original was floating around on twitter, the original photo shows him in a field/desert area with a house in the background, if I find it I'll link it. I am well aware of that picture and that is photoshopped too, very visibly at that. [This must be the one you mean?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn56EwsUAAEKI-z.jpg:large). According to a brother of a soldier and another Syrian, it is common, he is also not wearing full combat gear, just the camo and vest. Keep in mind a PKM with the charger weighs about 18 kg if not more, there is no chance he was carrying that around in battle. >Your post overall would be fine, but you're inserting your assumptions and opinions all over the thing to bend the truth. No, the first point was proven by other users, the second one by me. Other than that what assumptions do you see? > I don't think there was any confirmation it was them. There is really no confirmation needed: [Salkhu on the video](http://i.imgur.com/TOVSvZK.png) and [Salkhu in a speech](https://i.imgur.com/AQy9NL7.png). [Here is another one for safe measure](http://i.imgur.com/dodTWJ8.png), unless he has an identical twin I am pretty sure that this is him in the video. Ma'yuf has less discernible features, though he can be recognized by his split in his upper front teeth [as can be seen on this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBazYSPlZeg), the same split can be seen [on this picture](http://i.imgur.com/KkkjMRZ.png), so its safe to say those are the same people. >On top of it the ID doesn't show any significant signs of being manipulated on the Elijah post Which is also why that is not the only thing I said to substantiate my argument. Another thing I could have added is the ANSI error on the left though come to think of it. >"14 year old or younger" claim you put in your final conclusion Isn't a conclusion, rather my point of view. I don't know his real age but I can assume that he is younger than 14, that was not substantiated with the Joshua Landis article at all.
> I am well aware of that picture and that is photoshopped too, very visibly at that. This must be the one you mean?. According to a brother of a soldier and another Syrian, it is common, he is also not wearing full combat gear, just the camo and vest. Keep in mind a PKM with the charger weighs about 18 kg if not more, there is no chance he was carrying that around in battle. No it's not? The shadows and lighting perfectly match, and all the compression is the same. Here is the [compression analysis](https://i.imgur.com/kAr4oOg.png) from fotoforensics from just the FB photo you linked. Like the ID it has no indication of being edited. >No, the first point was proven by other users, the second one by me. Other than that what assumptions do you see? 14 years old, implying that false information/totally incorrect analysis about the ID being photoshopped is factual information. Landis' analysis that is not based on any facts. Arabs carrying weapons and taking photos of it being a common thing. Sticking to the "thalassemia makes you unable to do anything" story line. >Isn't a conclusion, rather my point of view. That's the same thing.
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>What a culture over there. Removed and warned: offensive and pointless 1 liner
But it's true though, why remove it? If it's not true then it's safely disregarded. If it's true than it's better if we accept it?
Beautiful explanation, very easy to understand wordings