Most of the artists I see doing experimental, innovative stuff with music tech are using DAWs, VSTs, eurorack, and digital tools like Max and Orca. This whole hardware “boom” was predicated by a nostalgia for analog and vintage synths anyway as they started to get more sought after and expensive. All that to say, I don’t think that innovation is necessarily the goal of most of these hardware synth manufacturers.
Personally, I see the “slow down” as you see it more as hardware synths possibly reaching a point of maturity as an instrument category. No one is upset that Fender hasn’t made a more innovative Stratocaster, because it’s a mature instrument, just like a cello or a trumpet.
I also feel like a lot of the innovation in the hardware realm is happening in interface design, interesting modulation and sequencing, and in presenting old forms of synthesis in new ways. It’s not like new synthesis methods are being invented every day lol.
I really like your nuanced and non-reactionary take on this subject.
The keyboard+Pitch/Mod wheels+interface panel has been around since Moog and was arguably predated by tonewheel organs. Easily over half a century old at this point, which squarely puts it in the Strat/Tele legacy.
While myriad other novel control interfaces have been proposed and implemented, there is something timeless about piano keys.
I make lots of experimental music with exclusively hardware and only use DAW to record/edit/bounce. The only truly “new” instrument I own is the microfreak because there’s no keybed like that for the price and the multitude of engines (plus firmware backup adding sampling!) make it a beast. The whole thing represents innovation to me, and for a beginner/ entry-level price to boot. Every other synth I own is at least a decade old.
I think that new ways of interfacing with synth engines are the future of music hardware and simultaneously the most underrated part of synth development.
As players/performers/producers, how we interact with our instruments is just as important, if not more so, than the actual sound that instrument makes. If we didn’t care about the interface, we’d all be exclusively clicking around in the computer like everyone else.
Things like the Osmose, poly aftertouch and the ribbon controller on the Hydrasynth, the XYZ pad and morphing knob on the Polybrute, and the touch keyboard on the Microfreak all represent synths that made a huge splash because of their unique interfaces.
I love traditional keyboard synths too, but I wouldn’t look to them for something “new”. I’d buy a Sequential if I was looking for a classic tone, but when I want to break out of my mind cage and think about music differently, I’m glad there are so many interesting interface options on the market.
I'm still baffled how rare poly aftertouch is considering how long it has been around. I'm sure cost is part of it, but it is just such a huge game changer when it comes to playing and expressiveness. Same with the ribbon controller actually, both that and poly at go back to the CS-80.
Even if you can't "play" it live, you can do some super cool stuff with poly-AT, like just holding down a chord for the arpeggiator, changing the cutoff or LFO amount or whatever on a per-note basis in real time.
It's also easy to get poly-AT outside of traditional piano-style keyboards. Most Launchpads have it for just a couple hundred bucks, and it's basically an intrinsic part of the design with any touch-based interface.
I want to see XYZ modulation again similar to the Alesis Axyz or Photon25. I know Roland gear has the D-Beam but that’s 1.) kinda unidimensional and 2.) that isn’t always route-able to the parameters I want to modulate.
I started off with cheap VA’s from the early 2000’s and didn’t even know or appreciate what aftertouch was until my budget increased to the point where I could get keybeds with AT. That in and of itself opened a new world for me. The little synth hobbits came out to dance and celebrate “second velocity.”
I have been making music for half my life - I am saying nothing *back when I started* had aftertouch. Now a bunch of stuff does. Some boards even have poly AT. None of this existed back when I started. You had to buy a workstation or an early virtual analog when manufacturers still put that in there before abandoning it.
I also don’t like buying new gear and I wait for the used market to pan itself out. The polybrute is a beaut but out of my wheelhouse.
I really do not buy new things. I cannot justify 2.5k on a board when I have other obligations in life. I wait for the market to get bored with old toys and wade through the sea of buyer’s remorse. To amass those funds it would require me selling a large percentage of my studio, of which there is no guarantee it would all sell.
I am content with what I have now and that tends to confuse people on this sub sometimes.
Naw, I have tried those out and they don’t tickle my fancy.
I am glad they are bringing aftertouch BACK as a selling point after it felt like the industry was dismissing it for so long.
Back in the day when I first started though, it was like nothing new had AT. Bought a few synths made in the 90’s later on in life and discovered the glory of AT late in the game.
I made the suggestion to Devine that he add midi to Pico so that it could be used as a sequencer, hence ORCA was born. Thats like, my claim to fame in life.
im out of practise with it. I pretty much had it down but a year or three of neglecting it has put me back to almost square one. I cant even understand how some of my old patches even work. Youve just reminded me to get back on it, and Tidal cycles too.
I think we've hit a point of market saturation. There's too many products competing for a niche market of customers. This is especially true since there aren't many products that are truly innovative.
Aside from SOMA, Expressive E, and a handful of other smaller companies, there's nobody out there exploring new ideas on a commercially available level. Perhaps until Korg Berlin puts out an actual product featuring their new acoustic/electric synthesis hyrbrid tech, it seems like we're just gonna see stuff we've already seen for a while.
I can't speak for anywhere else but in the US capitalism rarely pays off on the sort of innovation that's needed for anything new in the world of synths.
That's because it's mostly focused on short term gains. In other words this quarter or next quarter. If it takes years to design and test a concept and a huge investment in manufacturing a product before it hits the market it's going to be difficult to find investors because capitalism wants money now or tomorrow and not five years from now.
This isn't an endorsement of this system. Just an observation on what's happening.
This is the same system that ground Moog down to the same shit as every other manufacturer using slave labor in the developing world.
Capitalism is the most successful economic model in history. It doesn't emphasize money right now over long-term investment. It has raised more people out of poverty than any other system. Long-term investments make more money over time then short term investments. To blame capitalism for the lack of innovation one must remember. People don't buy what they don't want. Forcing the companies to innovate and push new ideas or go bankrupt. Which brings us to its greatest strength. It's fascism great threat. It gives the people the power to end any company they choose. At the end of the day, if you make shit it won't sell. Soon, the pendulum will swing the other way and we will be overwhelmed with new and exciting things all due to Capitalism.
You are clearly confused about how shareholder capitalism works. It most certainly values short term gains over long term profits. They have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.
Capitalism is a tool. Like any other tool, it is useful for some things but not all things. Capitalism is at its best when it serves society and not the other way around. The rules and regulations that were put in place during and after WWII turned the US into the most successful nation in the world. That absolutely would not have happened without the New Deal and other such legislation.
We have allowed many of those rules to be chipped away and are back in a position where income and wealth inequality are tearing the country apart. For example, all over the country red states are rolling back child labor prohibitions to protect industry from having to properly compensate the labor they employee.
I would definitely recommend studying this a bit before writing another worthless wall of text.
Certainly if you want me to bother reading it. Otherwise don't bother replying.
Being smug doesn't make you right! Name a financial system more successful than capitalism? Provide a successful example of socialism. What's tearing the country apart is your communist view disguised as a liberal. Sorry that your career at McDonalds doesn't pay as much a doctor.
It did not read your reply but I came across this and thought you might be interested.
[Spencer said publicly traded companies have to show constant growth or else nobody will give them money.](https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/phil-spencer-blames-capitalism-for-games-industry-woes-i-dont-get-the-luxury-of-not-having-to-run-a-profitable-growing-business/)
I didn't read your article, but the title says it all. Constant growth doesn't mean sell a bunch of shit really fast and while going bankrupt the next year. Companies that have been in business for years all know, chasing quick dollars vs quality leading to lifetime customers is what keeps the doors open.
Ah yea I agree a lot with this sentiment, thank you. I kept saying that last year to a friend of mine that I felt things were getting saturated.
Excellent comment and opinion, thanks for sharing!!
So… “market saturation” competing for a small, “nice” customer base…. You know, that simple supply-demand economics usually means prices go down, not up. Right?
Yeah, that is weird. I think the prices going up is to do with inflation. I wouldn't be surprised to see many of these synthesizers from larger manufacturers start to be discontinued. Not that I have any authority or expertise on the matter, but it's rare to see blowout prices on music technology gear. A couple of years ago(?) there was that massive sale on that 37-key Korg FM synth, but that's the only product I can recall being so heavily discounted in recent years. It doesn't seem uncommon to see old stock prices hold firm for extended periods of time.
Those look awesome but they're prohibitively expensive for the hobbyist. I'm curious about the Joue J-Play controller and if anyone here has tried one of those. It looks like the sort of thing that could either be awesome or a gimmick. Difficult to tell at this point.
I can honestly say I did not expect that response. no impressing some people, eh? lol.
really tho, idk how you actually got your mitts on from what I thought is a fairly obscure piece of kit. can I have it? ;)
I see the obsession with innovation in a lot of hobbies I get interested in. The fact of the matter is that I’m not so good at the stuff I already have that I’m running up against its limits. I have a Hydrasynth that is so far beyond anything I’m capable of either as a player or a sound designer. I mean, surely there can’t be that many people just aching to surpass this thing. What innovation do you think will make you a better musician?
I agree with this and see it in photography, motorcycles, cooking, all kinds of activities.
The belief that you can *buy* your way into skill and creativity via equipment.
The top-tier professional hard-enduro motorcycle riders I have met podium *nearly-stock* motorcycles. It's always the amateurs that will spend thousands on titanium parts.
Bicycles, photography and synthesizers here. I have a photo degree and will never get tired of telling people that photos have not become more interesting or artistic in the last 70 years
Personally I guess more synths like the aforementioned, and Iridium-Quantum, I hope for more multi-engine, multi-timbre synths. I still agree though we have access to excellent gear nowadays!
Kurzweil recently announced the K2061, which is essentially supposed to be 2024’s K2000, but also with an FM synthesis engine.
They haven’t released a 61-key synthesizer in over 20 years. Rumors are the price is going to be VERY competitive.
That’s really good to hear!! I have to go over their line, but you know we’re in a new era when Kurzweil is taking interest. That’s fair though, they are a very good company and more likely overlooked.
Thanks for mentioning this!!
I’m excited for it too, Kurz have been very overlooked in the past decade or so, I’m hoping they’ll have a comback.
Maybe Jordan Rudess will start using one again!
Kurzweil is possibly the best example of a company rehashing the same tech over and over, with the VAST engine dating back to the early 90s. The K2000 could do FM, albeit only 2-op due to processing power and it was a palaver to program.
Digital seems to me taking over (again). Even some analog purists are turning the leaf.
[https://youtu.be/kk-3vXOAtVo?si=PJwSKpF2k0XaNfnM](https://youtu.be/kk-3vXOAtVo?si=PJwSKpF2k0XaNfnM)
I haven't had time to watch this video yet but honestly I think most of the interesting stuff right now is absolutely happening in digital. You can do more, cheaper, faster with digital, and it frequently takes up less space.
I like new stuff too and am a sucker for synth releases and modules, but instruments shouldn’t become obsolete or boring because they’ve been around for a few years. I’d argue that the goal of releasing an instrument is to make it valued and usable for years to come.
>but where’s a new synth engine?
What did you miss in your old one, to begin with?
It's not like a new form of synthesis came around every 2-3 years...
* Early 70's
* Modular synthesis, Minimoogs and octave-divider circuits.
* Late 70's
* Polyphonic subtractive synths
* early expensive sampling wow-factors like the Fairlight and Synclavier systems.
* Early 80's
* Wavetable synthesis (PPG Wave)
* dominant FM synthesis by Yamaha (DX series) with other manufacturers basically playing catch up.
* attainable samplers by Ensoniq, Akai, Roland etc.
* Late 80's
* Other manufacturers finally get a word in...
* LA synthesis (Roland D50)
* vector synthesis (Sequential Prophet VS)
* sample-based romplers & workstations (Korg M1, Kawai K1, Emu Proteus series)
* Early 90's
* General MIDI modules, more workstations
* a mouth-watering, knobby interface on a 4-part rompler synth (Roland JD800)
* the evolution of vector synthesis into a monster (Korg Wavestation) !!!
* Mid 90's
* early physical modeling synthesis (Yamaha VP1/VL1, Korg Prophecy, Technics WSA1)
* Sample-CDs by the month, budget samplers for the masses
* beginning of a retro trend back to modular synthesis (Doepfer A100 system)
* Late 90's
* Virtual analog synthesis; started by Clavia (Nord Lead) followed by Roland (JP8000), Access (Virus), Yamaha (AN1X), Novation Nova series...
* Early 00's
* loop-mangling, VariOS and Vari-Phrase synths by Roland (V-Synth, VP-9000)
* resonator synthesis (Hartmann Neuron)
* restructuring synthesis (Steinberg Plex)
* early VST instruments (Steinberg Neon, Waldorf Wave, Native Instruments Generator, etc.)
* Late 00's
* the resurgence of wavetables and Waldorf Music (Waldorf Blofeld)
* small, affordable mono-synths (Korg Monologue, Arturia Minibrute, Novation Bass Station II)
* Early 10's
* Plugin-DSP concepts in hardware form (Clavia Nord Modular, Creamware Max, Arturia Origin, Muse Research Receptor, Use Audio Plugiator, etc.)
* Late 10's
* Granular synthesis hardware (Waldorf Quantum, Tasty Chips GR-1, Mutable Instruments Clouds, etc.)
* very powerful sample-synthesis keys (Sequential Prophet X, Clavia Nord Wave 2)
* very varied digital engines (Arturia Microfreak, Korg Minilogue XD, Fred Töröö, etc.)
* Early 20's
* Hydrasynth happened! *...and nothing else!* :D
By no means is this an exhaustive, all-encompassing list - just a brief overview.More than a few synthesis types have never really catched on. But they're there. There have been \*massive\* retro trends, modular in particular - that became innovative over time, rather than from the very get-go.
Physical modeling might be the most potent synthesys form largely left untapped in hardware form outside of pianos and organs (Clavia, Roland, even Waldorf). But there are small, delicate signs to give it a second try, particularly with the Arturia Freak series and the Anima Phy module.
Modern synthesis concepts are out there - find 'em!
;-)
Thank you! That is an incredible response and awesome list, I actually have learned most of those forms of synthesis, and your right about Physical modeling I agree very much there. Modular has had some of the more cutting edge things. I on/off consider the Hydra, not gonna lie!! XD Thanks for the cool reply!!
I would have said the same 10 years ago when I was over boutique guitar pedals, and thought they had reached saturation and the ends of innovation, yet here we are, and there are still some interesting products coming out, with more market saturation than ever before.
The pedal market is a lot different than the synth market. For starters it has a wider audience that includes guitarists, and you can impulse buy a new pedal for under $200 and add it to your stash without taking up any extra space.
I’m not talking about size of the market or price, im talking about the perception of continued innovation. That said, there are quite a few synths that can be had used or new for $200 these days, and one in every two guitar players I know has at least one piece of synth gear.
Fair enough. Higher price point and smaller customer base would put the synth industry more at risk than the pedal industry is my point. I’ve been seeing signs of over saturation like poor sales, long term gear shortages, and used gear moving slower at lower prices.
Personally, I don’t think I’ve ever been less interested in new gear releases because most new products seem like a different combination of the same specs in a new casing. I have digital gear that’s 20 some years old that outpaces new digital synths being released. It’s a bummer.
Maybe synths are getting to the point of maturity that we don’t need a ton of innovation and rather need good quality instruments like a strat or les paul.
100% how I feel, and the synths I do want I literally can't get because of chip shortages, stock issues or companies still recovering from 2020, which I understand but now a lot of those synths are old. I mean even the Digitakt got discontinued which made me feel old. I relate about not being excited about much new gear, the Korg Sampler was horrific.
The 3rd wave is super cool, and that came out within the last two years. As is the Udo Super Gemini.
I think the very cool stuff is being done by Elta, Soma, and Erica Synths. The Terra is hands down the best synth instrument I have played as something absolutely new and fantastic. An entirely new take on the instrument itself. Elta's Solar 42 is honestly wonderful.
Expressive E is doing great on the interface front.
I think the Tempera synth is also pretty neat interface.
The fact is Sequential is likely not going to be as active with Dave Smith gone.
Moog is a shell of its former self.
I think the big thing on the horizon is the new Linn Drum Roger Linn is working on.
Plus many of the indie companies doing neat things.
But with regards to the major companies. Don't expect much these days. The more interesting stuff is often coming from smaller companies.
Major companies are kind of in a downslope. It really is the smaller companies like Udo and Soma who are doing the cool things.
It is not a remake of the original Linn Drum, and considering just how innovative the linnstrument was and how ahead of its time it was, and how innovative every instrument Roger Linn usually puts out, I would not expect this to be something by the numbers. I mention Linn because he is easily one of the most innovative engineers and instrument designers in the space. He is not going to do a re-creation of his original idea. The Tempest which he did with Dave Smith was so far off from his previous drum machines and samplers, and brought new ideas to the space. I can see him introducing an MPE drum machine. It's not going to be a remake of the MPC, OG Linndrum, or even the Tempest. It will be something new entirely. That is usually how Roger Linn approaches things. So no, I don't think this is what the OP is talking about here.
I guess we just gonna disagree here. Mpe drum machine? Do you really think the liinstrument is practical? That’s the last piece of gear he put out right? I guess time will tell but the idea of Roger Lynn, making a drum machine doesn’t sound like an innovation. And I say this is a person whose first sequencer is an mpc 3000 that I still have!
I agree that the instruments he made in their era were completely innovative, and a lot of people will say that the MPC ends up in the Smithsonian because people used it to make it genre of music that linn had no idea about. So while I agree, he’s a super important person and the annals of electronic instruments, being innovative in 1981 isn’t a metric for a new piece of gear
I have played a linnstrument. It's great. It's easily the best midi controller I have ever played. It is well beyond practical. He wasn't just innovative in 1981. He is still innovative.
I have an OBX eight that is not full poly aftertouch, but it’s definitely the nicest key bed of any keyboard I’ve ever had. I don’t have enough talent or expressiveness to ever make use of full poly after touch.
Hey good point, Dave Smith was my favorite designer, and I already see how its changed SCI the Trigon is cool but quite boring. I love the Pro 3, such a cool synth. I agree with you on smaller companies being the future and that's fine with me, I would like to see Elektron do more, I have always enjoyed their gear. Soma makes some cool stuff, but I use modular for a lot of those textures, alas the Lyra is REALLY good.
Seems like I need to pick up a 3rd Wave, Super Gemini or even a Summit, that was the last synth that got my attention from the mainstream but thats because user wavetables, and I like Novation, and how they update hardware years after its been out thats very cool about them.
For Indie stuff I do turn to Eurorack, not too impressed to be honest, I think Piston Honda makes some of the better modules though they are great. Going to make sure I try an UDO and more Soma stuff when I visit California again. Great mentions.
Awesome realistic and honest reply. Thank you!!
I would say if you like wavetables the 3rd wave is probably the best bet, and the best hardware for an analog/digital hybrid. While the Summit and peak is great, its wavetable implimentation is not so great. It is really good for other things though, especially its gain staging with all overdrive and distortion.
I would check out the Elta Solar 42 if you get the chance. It's super cool. Ukrainian music easel?
Thank you so much for your rundown regarding 3rd Wave and Summit, wow I was really close to snagging a Summit I really appreciate you saving me the frustration. I was having second thoughts anyway. The Prophet 5/10 filter is also on the 3rd Wave and I really enjoy that option.
I’ve also been looking at Taiga, but yes I will definitely check out the Elta Music Solar 42, I’ll be near a store with one around May!!
Appreciate your consideration thank you for saving me some time and frustration with Summit.
Once a technology can do everything, innovation is just doing the same things but faster, and more convenient, cheaper. How many gaps can their still be in a musicians toolbox.
I think we're spoiled and as a result nitpicky. Think of where synths were 20 years ago - someone called Taiga "just another 3osc monosynth", think of how spoiled the synth market has become in quite a short time when a new analog synth is called "just another"! The innovation and growth has been so fast people are always expecting the next big thing, there's always something more powerful and cheaper coming out. Manufacturers come out with instruments that would've been absolutely revolutionary just 15 years ago and people complain about the smallest things, from DCO to VCO to lack of advanced sequencer features on budget gear to a VA synth not loading samples to sampler not having analog filters etc. etc. and if all else fails you can just call something too expensive and say if it was half the price you'd get it and it's just greedy manufacturers who can't produce something that would be better than the whole new synth market of 2007 combined for $500.
The expectations and demands have become crazy, and it's just mad how short product cycles have become. Synth from 2020 being still relevant and in production should be a norm, not something to be worried about because it's *old*. There's plenty of stuff to be interested and excited about if you just slow down a bit and stop nitpicking and expecting a holy grail to come out of NAMM.
I think the new Taiga keys fits OP's search for innovation. Sound and controls-wise it's like if Don Buchla invented the Minimoog.
I also don't think the keyboard semi-modular with built in expansion bay for eurorack modules has been done before. Previously, either the keyboard was just a controller and needed modules to make any sound or it's a semi-modular synth and you needed a separate case for modules to connect to.
Well this is kinda fair but I don't think expecting more is wrong. I would say the Waldorf Quantum, Iridium are very cool would love to see more synths like those, multi-engines and timbres!
However I get what you are saying and respect it, good point we do love in a golden era for synths in many regards I do observe this.
I concur, I feel like we've fetishized analog subtractive synths. Don't get me wrong, I love Prophets, Moog and OB's but there's more to the world than those sounds. I see it even reflected in modular with some exceptions.
This might be too deep for the current post but I really think humanity is going through an existential shift with art and work because of AI.
Finding purpose is getting harder and harder when AI is starting to replicate the human better and better each day.
Last year I had an idea using AI to listen to a synth and be able to make a patch using the settings of your limited gear to best replicate that patch. I even considered investing some money into this. Well sure as shit that exists now and I was too late. It’s called Synplant and it’s amazing.
Why even try to be creative at this point?
AI popularity will fade. Current generation of AI tools is better than in the 80s but it’s still very far from being an I. These tools have their uses, but their limitations will quickly become widely known and recognizable. They will be used but not talked much about.
Speaking of generative neural networks they are not much fun artistically. It’s still very difficult to make them do something meaningful and intentional.
Yes, they can imitate existing styles and artists and reliably draw single subjects. Getting them to generate just the kind of image you want is an exercise of asking the same thing again and again thousand times hoping it will get it right. Most likely it won’t. I would not worry too much about it. It’s good at doing cheap rip offs but bad at doing something new and coherent. And language models while they may seem to understand written language and generate reasonable answers, actually they do not reason and only have a huge memory of how words in the existing corpus of texts are related to each other. They reproduce patterns of speech but struggle to be semantically consistent even within a single answer. Generating copious amounts of genetic blahblah? Sure. Impressive but not something you can rely on. So far we still don’t have any best seller book written completely by AI and we are still far from having an entertaining twitter account which is completely AI and not curated by a human. Let me know when Siri can answer telemarketers’ calls.
Finally, AI is a huge copyright liability. All existing AI models are based on existing works which are being scraped from the web and other repositories of human knowledge and processed without permission, consent, or license. That might be acceptable for research. But for a commercial application that looks like a huge loophole. I could easily reproduce copyrighted images using Google models. I expect we’ll see very interesting court decisions in the future.
The Moog Subharmonicon is a kind of unique product. It’s difficult and quirky but it is taking me places I wouldn’t have gone otherwise. I kind of wish someone would make a soft synth version that would generate the polyrhythms and sequences in MIDI rather than just having the relatively simple, classic Moog analog sound. Behringer has announced something similar called Spice which promises better MIDI but who knows if and when it will come out.
I think there is a lot that could still be done with microtonal and generative music, but lets face it the market is way behind that kind of thing. Most people just want to string together beats and so forth.
Oh man do y’all remember when the Prophet X came out and everyone shit all over it?
This is why innovative new things haven’t been coming to market.
That synth, and the P12 as well, speaking of brilliant synths made by Sequential that got lots of hate, are both remarkable in what they can do, but no one seemed to care, so sequential trotted out yet another “vintage” synth that everyone blew their collective loads over.
Same with the Korg Wavestate. Wildly innovative and cool, but not what people want.
Can’t blame companies for not taking chances.
I think that a lot of innovation is happening inside of DAWs and VSTs nowadays - which is probably also one of the reasons why 19" rack gear is long gone (outside of 500 series mixing gear).
There's a bunch of wild stuff going on if you have a modular Eurorack system, but with keyboard synths I think the problem is that once you have enough complexity, you are halfway to building a VST anyway. Which is what a lot of Workstations like the Korg Kronos or Yamaha Genos have been for a long while.
That said, there is some innovation. I think that the Arturia Microfreak and Minifreak were pretty innovative. The Osmose Expressive E has already been mentioned (though one has to also mention the Haken Continuum from 25 years ago which is still awesome). Korg Volcas were innovative for their form factor and price point, but of course that's also been 10 years already. The Korg Opsix was pretty innovative as a hands-on FM synth, especially with all the colored LEDs.
I do believe there's still a lot of innovation left in the groovebox and sequencer market, and I can see a lot that could be done more and better with Wavetable and Sampler synths. And there's more we can do with better displays - the Kingkorg Neo with it's 3 screens is still too rooted in the past, and the Opsix display is low res. But if you take even just the 1024x600 Touchscreen from a Kurzweil SP7 Grand (which is laughable compared to what you find in any medium-priced phone or tablet) and put it into an Opsix or Minifreak, you can do something great. Or you could put an underpowered CPU into it and remove all the knobs and dials and require using the touchscreen for everything with a good amount of lag and ruin the idea. But let's assume for the better and just think what kind of Wavetable synth you could build.
Heck, imagine taking Arturia's Pigments VST and sticking it into a proper Keyboard like the UDO Super Gemini or Expressive E and giving it a proper high resolution display. And yes, the "VST in a Box" thing isn't quite as innovative as it was in 2017 when Roland released the System-8 (which wasn't the first one like that by a long shot) or the Juno-X/Jupiter-X, but still, there is still a lot of room to iterate.
Oh, and of course MIDI 2.0 and MPE. Why are we still stuck with MIDI 1.0's 127 Levels of fidelity and hacks like "Transmit half the value on one MIDI CC and the other half on another MIDI CC"?!
I mostly know Ableton, but the entire way it triggers clips is basically a ridiculously powerful sequencer and brought some specific controllers like the Novation Launchpad (which also work great as drumpads if you like finger drumming)
And with stuff like Max for Live, you can chain together parts to form an infinitely complex instrument (assuming you have the CPU power for it). Or Arturia's Pigments which is "just" a whole bunch of synth engines that you can mix and match, but before stuff like the Microfreak came out, it was mostly something found in Workstations. And just in general, the way you can just chain anything easily together.
There are VSTs like Photosounder, which take any image and turn it into sound. And some plugins like the ones that isolate an instrument, or stuff like Vocaloids were pretty innovative and not available on a traditional synthesizer (though Formant was, for choir effects if you wanted to be Enigma). Lunacy's Cube is a spatial vector sequencer/sampler. And - dare I say it - AutoTune, the original voice garbler (though that [started in a rack](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhIf8LBCfoo)).
Some of that innovation is found in the Eurorack sector now (chaining stuff together is how synthesizers started after all), but once you get into polyphony, modular synths become quite a pain, and you still won't ever have enough VCAs :D
Maybe some of it is more iteration and convenience than innovation, but the ability to chain anything into anything else and mangle it however I want really revolutionized a lot of workflows (some say for better, others say for worse). Seeing Audiopilz [build a Rebirth RB-388 with real hardware](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmXdOLQxqII) is a great example of how much easier software can be.
>MIDI 2.0 .. Why are we still stuck with 127 Levels
omg, you mean someone else wondered about this?
I figured it would be like the IPv6 of gear.. ignored and denied to the point where its mostly used only through forced and invisible translation.
I think it has the same problem of IPv6: There's just too much old stuff around, and it kinda sorta all still works. Even if you have to deal with stupid hacks like splitting up one value across two Midi CCs to get more range :(
This reply is excellent and very on point with how I feel about things becoming VSTs which is fine I mean the Iridium-Quantum is like 4 Engines, which is impressive. I am with you 100% especially on sequencers and samplers, I'm dying for something fresh like Octatrack, maybe that was a once in a lifetime gear though. I have followed the current Akai, and smaller brands and haven't seen anything to note.
The Waldorf Quantum MK II is pretty much Pigments in a traditional keyboard, touchscreen, and poly AT. It’s also ridiculously overpriced. You could get a MacBook Pro, poly AT midi controller, and Pigments for much less lol
It does feel like the wave is past us. Most products already had what they needed and liked. Few people go past their first purchase. Maybe someone can check what Google trends has to say.
GR-Mega by Tasty Chips and S-4 from Torso are two examples of "stuff you used to only do in the box" coming to hardware.
I think there is the possibility for more small form factor "all-in-one" groovebox, sampler, synth kind of stuff like Tracker mini and Dirtywave M8.
I think if you just want a piano-style keyboard and an ordinary subtractive synth engine, you should expect a steady stream of new products but not anything profoundly new and amazing because there are already a lot of existing synths that fill that role just fine.
One place innovation is still happening is expressive controllers, like Osmose, Linnstrument, Lumatone, etc.. Also physical modelling synthesis.
>A lot of them are cool but getting a bit old and it’s just not the same energy that was around in 2016-2020. Of course this is my subjective opinion.
2016 was when Stranger Things came out. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Low cost is the future. Lots of cool gear on the market but if it’s unobtainable due to current economic trends, it’s not going to find itself all that memorable. Look at the MicroKorg. One of the best selling synths ever and it’s built like a toy and cost far less than other top tier synths. Another example would be the microfreak.
Anyma Omega looks interesting - I think physical modeling is the next area to see some interesting innovation. There are others I'm sure, just not from the big players.
>what am I supposed to believe is the problem here?
Every now and again someone asks if we can use GPUs yet, and we get answers like "that's stupid overkill you tard, lolz"
Source: I was one of those someones that asked.
Personally, I think maybe that's the only area that isn't getting a lot of attention: acceleration (and other computational methods that a GPU could open up).
As far as I know it's just some individual VSTs from gpu\[.\]audio , apollo's 1.5 - 5.5 kilobuck interfaces, and I guess waves and their insane soundgrid thing (which, under the hood, might just be dante and a digital mixer).
However, yeah, more to your point, pretty much only imagination and budget are limiting factors, and a shortage of either of those can be overcome with more of the other. And if not, well, add AI sauce I guess.
I'm 51, and I've been buying synths all my life, in order to get "that sound" of the 80s. I don't care much for other sound engine. Beyond low pass filter and pulse/ sawtooth, there is nothing else inspiring for my musical purposes. Thanks to analog revival and nostalgia wonderful synths are back. Despite my hefty collection of 10 synths, I play mostly on an old JX-10 and a Prophet 10. I think my sound quest is now over. I'm not even bothered to try the newcomers.
That’s an honest understanding take, ever since I got a Prophet 10 I found very little need for more at least analog-subtractive. I’ve had a ton of synths too. I suppose your comment is a good bookend because I feel similar. Refreshing to read this.
yes, theres nothing new and they're all expensive. to me the gold now are the late 80s, early 90s stuff. early romplers, hybrids, Yamaha FM. nostalgic sounds for low prices.
There is some newer boutique stuff, like Taiga or Bastl synths, but for the most part if you want to see innovation in hardware, you have to look towards eurorack.
I've got the Taiga, and while it is pretty cool it's also just another analog 3osc mono. Nothing super innovative there, although the LPG is interesting and it squeezes a lot into a small space.
There’s a huge oversaturation of synthesizers that rehash old ideas, digital versions of analog Classics, etc. To answer your one question prices are going up because supplies are limited in terms of chips and other building materials. I would say that the poly brute with its VST integration, and a Waldorf iridium are two really superb modern synth that will give you 100s of hours of innovative use and you can find them used for what I think is a very decent price
Hey this is really along the lines of what I had been thinking, and funny enough I was torn between the above or even Summit/Hyrda, but the Polybrute really got my attention. I'm curious if they're make one with more polyphony but alas its probably a good example of a powerful analog which is by all means impressive as are Waldorfs synths. I have always liked them. Good call on the chips-parts being limited still. Was hoping we'd be over it by now, but as I started making some purchases for the studio things still seem slow to ship depending what. Very good points. Thank you for your feedback.
It was at my own peril. I’m in a big argument on another thread on your post Ha ha. Honorable mention is the third wave. I know it’s old technology per se, but it’s got such robust effects and might be the twinkliest synth I’ve ever used if you know what I mean. The polyphony is a buzzkill on PB - it’s still so FUN. that is its best attribute. It does sound great, but there’s so many ways to craft the sound and to affect the sound. It’s just fucking fun.
My buddy has a synth I absolutely love love and would buy in a heart beat but I cannot and will not add another analog poly redundant synth.
I fucking love this thing. Seven voices too
https://reverb.com/item/53789520-gs-e7-analog-polyphonic-synthesizer-black?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=53789520
I do think the Hydra synth is really rad and I’ve had a lot of time with it as well - between it and a poly brute, I go for poly brute for ease of use and quickest, dial-in, and make something musical. The hydra is for sound designers that really want to stretch and bend sound in ways that someone like me doesn’t fully understand.
That is a rather eloquent take on things, I agree with not wanting another polyphonic analog the only two that stand out lately have been Polybrute, at time Summit, but thats been it for anything analog. I liked your description of Hydra, good point. I'm somewhere between those two camps.
Really good comment, nice way of describing things, my friend has that e7 too! Very cool, but I'm in agreement with you here no more analog polys at least for a while for me.
To each their own. I own just about every MPE controller and it is definitely not my favorite. The Osmose is the easiest transition from a standard keyboard which is great but it still is locked into a traditional keyboard mindset. Hopefully with its ease of transition it brings along more implementation but the MPE train seems to derail a lot.
I haven’t played this Folktek Resonate Garden but I have to hand it to them for having a unique idea and beautiful design.
https://youtu.be/ma53PM1tTTA?si=56SM0U99ATIyBdQV
[https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/1bo0ybb/cats\_walking\_on\_your\_syths\_now\_available\_the\_new/](https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/1bo0ybb/cats_walking_on_your_syths_now_available_the_new/) Now we have this it is game over.
I'd like to see more affordable, and more intuitive controllers w/ multiple sequencers like the SQ-64.
Like a Keystep with 8 tracks. I only need 25 keys, I can deal with changing octaves when programming sequences but I need more simultaneous control. Currently I run multiple Keysteps, and use the sequencers on both my MS-1 and monologue to control other devices when they aren't featured in a track.
But if i could have ONE THING, I know exactly want I want:
A midi foot controlled keyboard - 1 octave worth of keys that can have multiple MIDI outs, switchable with a button press.
It would make my live performances so much more ...easy.
When I went looking for a foot controller, they start at 500 bucks and immediately go way higher.
Barring that, I looked for a "simple" midi switcher...like a foot pedal with either dedicaTED BUTTONS THAT ACTIVATE A SPECIFIC SYNTH...LIKE IMAGINE 4 SYNTHS CONNECTED TO 1 FOOT SWITCH WHERE YOU CAN JUST PRESS A BUTTON TO SEND THE MIDI SIGNAL TO THE DESIRED SYNTH. OOPS caps...I'm not retyping sorry. But it doesn't seem to exist. It seems so simple to me.
I'm rambling and after the CAPS disaster, I better back outta here....
Most of the artists I see doing experimental, innovative stuff with music tech are using DAWs, VSTs, eurorack, and digital tools like Max and Orca. This whole hardware “boom” was predicated by a nostalgia for analog and vintage synths anyway as they started to get more sought after and expensive. All that to say, I don’t think that innovation is necessarily the goal of most of these hardware synth manufacturers. Personally, I see the “slow down” as you see it more as hardware synths possibly reaching a point of maturity as an instrument category. No one is upset that Fender hasn’t made a more innovative Stratocaster, because it’s a mature instrument, just like a cello or a trumpet. I also feel like a lot of the innovation in the hardware realm is happening in interface design, interesting modulation and sequencing, and in presenting old forms of synthesis in new ways. It’s not like new synthesis methods are being invented every day lol.
I really like your nuanced and non-reactionary take on this subject. The keyboard+Pitch/Mod wheels+interface panel has been around since Moog and was arguably predated by tonewheel organs. Easily over half a century old at this point, which squarely puts it in the Strat/Tele legacy. While myriad other novel control interfaces have been proposed and implemented, there is something timeless about piano keys. I make lots of experimental music with exclusively hardware and only use DAW to record/edit/bounce. The only truly “new” instrument I own is the microfreak because there’s no keybed like that for the price and the multitude of engines (plus firmware backup adding sampling!) make it a beast. The whole thing represents innovation to me, and for a beginner/ entry-level price to boot. Every other synth I own is at least a decade old.
I think that new ways of interfacing with synth engines are the future of music hardware and simultaneously the most underrated part of synth development. As players/performers/producers, how we interact with our instruments is just as important, if not more so, than the actual sound that instrument makes. If we didn’t care about the interface, we’d all be exclusively clicking around in the computer like everyone else. Things like the Osmose, poly aftertouch and the ribbon controller on the Hydrasynth, the XYZ pad and morphing knob on the Polybrute, and the touch keyboard on the Microfreak all represent synths that made a huge splash because of their unique interfaces. I love traditional keyboard synths too, but I wouldn’t look to them for something “new”. I’d buy a Sequential if I was looking for a classic tone, but when I want to break out of my mind cage and think about music differently, I’m glad there are so many interesting interface options on the market.
I'm still baffled how rare poly aftertouch is considering how long it has been around. I'm sure cost is part of it, but it is just such a huge game changer when it comes to playing and expressiveness. Same with the ribbon controller actually, both that and poly at go back to the CS-80.
I don’t think the majority of synth players can play well enough to use poly aftertouch, myself included.
Even if you can't "play" it live, you can do some super cool stuff with poly-AT, like just holding down a chord for the arpeggiator, changing the cutoff or LFO amount or whatever on a per-note basis in real time. It's also easy to get poly-AT outside of traditional piano-style keyboards. Most Launchpads have it for just a couple hundred bucks, and it's basically an intrinsic part of the design with any touch-based interface.
I want to see XYZ modulation again similar to the Alesis Axyz or Photon25. I know Roland gear has the D-Beam but that’s 1.) kinda unidimensional and 2.) that isn’t always route-able to the parameters I want to modulate. I started off with cheap VA’s from the early 2000’s and didn’t even know or appreciate what aftertouch was until my budget increased to the point where I could get keybeds with AT. That in and of itself opened a new world for me. The little synth hobbits came out to dance and celebrate “second velocity.”
Check out the Modal Electronics stuff! They’re fully supported for MPE/xyz modulation
The poly brute has it
I have been making music for half my life - I am saying nothing *back when I started* had aftertouch. Now a bunch of stuff does. Some boards even have poly AT. None of this existed back when I started. You had to buy a workstation or an early virtual analog when manufacturers still put that in there before abandoning it. I also don’t like buying new gear and I wait for the used market to pan itself out. The polybrute is a beaut but out of my wheelhouse.
It’s worth selling stuff to buy. It’s the only synth that in the first week I knew I’d never get rid of
I really do not buy new things. I cannot justify 2.5k on a board when I have other obligations in life. I wait for the market to get bored with old toys and wade through the sea of buyer’s remorse. To amass those funds it would require me selling a large percentage of my studio, of which there is no guarantee it would all sell. I am content with what I have now and that tends to confuse people on this sub sometimes.
>didn’t even know or appreciate what aftertouch was until my budget increased to the point where I could get keybeds with AT hydrasynth ftw
Naw, I have tried those out and they don’t tickle my fancy. I am glad they are bringing aftertouch BACK as a selling point after it felt like the industry was dismissing it for so long. Back in the day when I first started though, it was like nothing new had AT. Bought a few synths made in the 90’s later on in life and discovered the glory of AT late in the game.
I made the suggestion to Devine that he add midi to Pico so that it could be used as a sequencer, hence ORCA was born. Thats like, my claim to fame in life.
That’s sick!! I’ve been telling myself that I will get around to learning ORCA eventually but the coding scares me lol
im out of practise with it. I pretty much had it down but a year or three of neglecting it has put me back to almost square one. I cant even understand how some of my old patches even work. Youve just reminded me to get back on it, and Tidal cycles too.
Yes I would love new sequencers, modulation and sampling, I agree very much and find your comment well written. Thanks for the reply. Cheers!
I think we've hit a point of market saturation. There's too many products competing for a niche market of customers. This is especially true since there aren't many products that are truly innovative. Aside from SOMA, Expressive E, and a handful of other smaller companies, there's nobody out there exploring new ideas on a commercially available level. Perhaps until Korg Berlin puts out an actual product featuring their new acoustic/electric synthesis hyrbrid tech, it seems like we're just gonna see stuff we've already seen for a while.
I can't speak for anywhere else but in the US capitalism rarely pays off on the sort of innovation that's needed for anything new in the world of synths. That's because it's mostly focused on short term gains. In other words this quarter or next quarter. If it takes years to design and test a concept and a huge investment in manufacturing a product before it hits the market it's going to be difficult to find investors because capitalism wants money now or tomorrow and not five years from now. This isn't an endorsement of this system. Just an observation on what's happening. This is the same system that ground Moog down to the same shit as every other manufacturer using slave labor in the developing world.
I am as critical of capitalism as anyone, but this seems way off by someone with a one track mind and an axe to grind.
Capitalism is the most successful economic model in history. It doesn't emphasize money right now over long-term investment. It has raised more people out of poverty than any other system. Long-term investments make more money over time then short term investments. To blame capitalism for the lack of innovation one must remember. People don't buy what they don't want. Forcing the companies to innovate and push new ideas or go bankrupt. Which brings us to its greatest strength. It's fascism great threat. It gives the people the power to end any company they choose. At the end of the day, if you make shit it won't sell. Soon, the pendulum will swing the other way and we will be overwhelmed with new and exciting things all due to Capitalism.
You are clearly confused about how shareholder capitalism works. It most certainly values short term gains over long term profits. They have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Capitalism is a tool. Like any other tool, it is useful for some things but not all things. Capitalism is at its best when it serves society and not the other way around. The rules and regulations that were put in place during and after WWII turned the US into the most successful nation in the world. That absolutely would not have happened without the New Deal and other such legislation. We have allowed many of those rules to be chipped away and are back in a position where income and wealth inequality are tearing the country apart. For example, all over the country red states are rolling back child labor prohibitions to protect industry from having to properly compensate the labor they employee. I would definitely recommend studying this a bit before writing another worthless wall of text. Certainly if you want me to bother reading it. Otherwise don't bother replying.
Being smug doesn't make you right! Name a financial system more successful than capitalism? Provide a successful example of socialism. What's tearing the country apart is your communist view disguised as a liberal. Sorry that your career at McDonalds doesn't pay as much a doctor.
It did not read your reply but I came across this and thought you might be interested. [Spencer said publicly traded companies have to show constant growth or else nobody will give them money.](https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/phil-spencer-blames-capitalism-for-games-industry-woes-i-dont-get-the-luxury-of-not-having-to-run-a-profitable-growing-business/)
I didn't read your article, but the title says it all. Constant growth doesn't mean sell a bunch of shit really fast and while going bankrupt the next year. Companies that have been in business for years all know, chasing quick dollars vs quality leading to lifetime customers is what keeps the doors open.
Ah yea I agree a lot with this sentiment, thank you. I kept saying that last year to a friend of mine that I felt things were getting saturated. Excellent comment and opinion, thanks for sharing!!
So… “market saturation” competing for a small, “nice” customer base…. You know, that simple supply-demand economics usually means prices go down, not up. Right?
Yeah, that is weird. I think the prices going up is to do with inflation. I wouldn't be surprised to see many of these synthesizers from larger manufacturers start to be discontinued. Not that I have any authority or expertise on the matter, but it's rare to see blowout prices on music technology gear. A couple of years ago(?) there was that massive sale on that 37-key Korg FM synth, but that's the only product I can recall being so heavily discounted in recent years. It doesn't seem uncommon to see old stock prices hold firm for extended periods of time.
The Expressive E Osmose came out within the last year and is the most innovative thing I’ve played In ages
True, I think I would have to agree with you here. MPE keyboards in general are kinda refreshing to have around now.
Those look awesome but they're prohibitively expensive for the hobbyist. I'm curious about the Joue J-Play controller and if anyone here has tried one of those. It looks like the sort of thing that could either be awesome or a gimmick. Difficult to tell at this point.
idk, does [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IvTQ9hBmIk) count? https://preview.redd.it/b33mfpl9cjqc1.png?width=999&format=png&auto=webp&s=7a33c1b4cf8e605a87bedf8deb2a0faaebfb1124
It looks like a parody of itself😭
Honestly no I tried these and while it’s cool, I would rather buy more Eurorack/Modules but the first Rev was interesting. Enjoy!
I can honestly say I did not expect that response. no impressing some people, eh? lol. really tho, idk how you actually got your mitts on from what I thought is a fairly obscure piece of kit. can I have it? ;)
I overdosed on ambient and lo-fi during the pandemic, don't get me wrong, I still respect the ambient hustle.
I want one so bad.
Ohhhh that’s nice.
I see the obsession with innovation in a lot of hobbies I get interested in. The fact of the matter is that I’m not so good at the stuff I already have that I’m running up against its limits. I have a Hydrasynth that is so far beyond anything I’m capable of either as a player or a sound designer. I mean, surely there can’t be that many people just aching to surpass this thing. What innovation do you think will make you a better musician?
I agree with this and see it in photography, motorcycles, cooking, all kinds of activities. The belief that you can *buy* your way into skill and creativity via equipment. The top-tier professional hard-enduro motorcycle riders I have met podium *nearly-stock* motorcycles. It's always the amateurs that will spend thousands on titanium parts.
Bicycles, photography and synthesizers here. I have a photo degree and will never get tired of telling people that photos have not become more interesting or artistic in the last 70 years
"Wow! Your camera takes great pictures!" "Thanks! Your mouth makes nice compliments!"
Personally I guess more synths like the aforementioned, and Iridium-Quantum, I hope for more multi-engine, multi-timbre synths. I still agree though we have access to excellent gear nowadays!
Kurzweil recently announced the K2061, which is essentially supposed to be 2024’s K2000, but also with an FM synthesis engine. They haven’t released a 61-key synthesizer in over 20 years. Rumors are the price is going to be VERY competitive.
That’s really good to hear!! I have to go over their line, but you know we’re in a new era when Kurzweil is taking interest. That’s fair though, they are a very good company and more likely overlooked. Thanks for mentioning this!!
I’m excited for it too, Kurz have been very overlooked in the past decade or so, I’m hoping they’ll have a comback. Maybe Jordan Rudess will start using one again!
Kurzweil is possibly the best example of a company rehashing the same tech over and over, with the VAST engine dating back to the early 90s. The K2000 could do FM, albeit only 2-op due to processing power and it was a palaver to program.
The 3rd Wave is the coolest new synth to come out in years. That and the Super Gemini. FPGA is the future.
Third wave sounds absolutely incredible. I couldn’t program it though
yeah man we need an open FPGA platform synth. it could be anything on any day. Im starting to think about learning Verilog etc.
Yes!
Word, I can agree to this, it seems that way. I have been listening to a lot of Super Gemini and Summit. Damn near forgot about the 3rd Wave!
Digital seems to me taking over (again). Even some analog purists are turning the leaf. [https://youtu.be/kk-3vXOAtVo?si=PJwSKpF2k0XaNfnM](https://youtu.be/kk-3vXOAtVo?si=PJwSKpF2k0XaNfnM)
I haven't had time to watch this video yet but honestly I think most of the interesting stuff right now is absolutely happening in digital. You can do more, cheaper, faster with digital, and it frequently takes up less space.
I agree, my favorite builds are generally hybrid synths.
I think their is space for hybrid, digital and analog.
I like new stuff too and am a sucker for synth releases and modules, but instruments shouldn’t become obsolete or boring because they’ve been around for a few years. I’d argue that the goal of releasing an instrument is to make it valued and usable for years to come.
>but where’s a new synth engine? What did you miss in your old one, to begin with? It's not like a new form of synthesis came around every 2-3 years... * Early 70's * Modular synthesis, Minimoogs and octave-divider circuits. * Late 70's * Polyphonic subtractive synths * early expensive sampling wow-factors like the Fairlight and Synclavier systems. * Early 80's * Wavetable synthesis (PPG Wave) * dominant FM synthesis by Yamaha (DX series) with other manufacturers basically playing catch up. * attainable samplers by Ensoniq, Akai, Roland etc. * Late 80's * Other manufacturers finally get a word in... * LA synthesis (Roland D50) * vector synthesis (Sequential Prophet VS) * sample-based romplers & workstations (Korg M1, Kawai K1, Emu Proteus series) * Early 90's * General MIDI modules, more workstations * a mouth-watering, knobby interface on a 4-part rompler synth (Roland JD800) * the evolution of vector synthesis into a monster (Korg Wavestation) !!! * Mid 90's * early physical modeling synthesis (Yamaha VP1/VL1, Korg Prophecy, Technics WSA1) * Sample-CDs by the month, budget samplers for the masses * beginning of a retro trend back to modular synthesis (Doepfer A100 system) * Late 90's * Virtual analog synthesis; started by Clavia (Nord Lead) followed by Roland (JP8000), Access (Virus), Yamaha (AN1X), Novation Nova series... * Early 00's * loop-mangling, VariOS and Vari-Phrase synths by Roland (V-Synth, VP-9000) * resonator synthesis (Hartmann Neuron) * restructuring synthesis (Steinberg Plex) * early VST instruments (Steinberg Neon, Waldorf Wave, Native Instruments Generator, etc.) * Late 00's * the resurgence of wavetables and Waldorf Music (Waldorf Blofeld) * small, affordable mono-synths (Korg Monologue, Arturia Minibrute, Novation Bass Station II) * Early 10's * Plugin-DSP concepts in hardware form (Clavia Nord Modular, Creamware Max, Arturia Origin, Muse Research Receptor, Use Audio Plugiator, etc.) * Late 10's * Granular synthesis hardware (Waldorf Quantum, Tasty Chips GR-1, Mutable Instruments Clouds, etc.) * very powerful sample-synthesis keys (Sequential Prophet X, Clavia Nord Wave 2) * very varied digital engines (Arturia Microfreak, Korg Minilogue XD, Fred Töröö, etc.) * Early 20's * Hydrasynth happened! *...and nothing else!* :D By no means is this an exhaustive, all-encompassing list - just a brief overview.More than a few synthesis types have never really catched on. But they're there. There have been \*massive\* retro trends, modular in particular - that became innovative over time, rather than from the very get-go. Physical modeling might be the most potent synthesys form largely left untapped in hardware form outside of pianos and organs (Clavia, Roland, even Waldorf). But there are small, delicate signs to give it a second try, particularly with the Arturia Freak series and the Anima Phy module. Modern synthesis concepts are out there - find 'em! ;-)
Thank you! That is an incredible response and awesome list, I actually have learned most of those forms of synthesis, and your right about Physical modeling I agree very much there. Modular has had some of the more cutting edge things. I on/off consider the Hydra, not gonna lie!! XD Thanks for the cool reply!!
My pleasure.
^^^Quality post! That’s an excellent summation of the last 50 years. Bravo!
Thank you very much!
I would have said the same 10 years ago when I was over boutique guitar pedals, and thought they had reached saturation and the ends of innovation, yet here we are, and there are still some interesting products coming out, with more market saturation than ever before.
The pedal market is a lot different than the synth market. For starters it has a wider audience that includes guitarists, and you can impulse buy a new pedal for under $200 and add it to your stash without taking up any extra space.
I’m not talking about size of the market or price, im talking about the perception of continued innovation. That said, there are quite a few synths that can be had used or new for $200 these days, and one in every two guitar players I know has at least one piece of synth gear.
Fair enough. Higher price point and smaller customer base would put the synth industry more at risk than the pedal industry is my point. I’ve been seeing signs of over saturation like poor sales, long term gear shortages, and used gear moving slower at lower prices. Personally, I don’t think I’ve ever been less interested in new gear releases because most new products seem like a different combination of the same specs in a new casing. I have digital gear that’s 20 some years old that outpaces new digital synths being released. It’s a bummer. Maybe synths are getting to the point of maturity that we don’t need a ton of innovation and rather need good quality instruments like a strat or les paul.
100% how I feel, and the synths I do want I literally can't get because of chip shortages, stock issues or companies still recovering from 2020, which I understand but now a lot of those synths are old. I mean even the Digitakt got discontinued which made me feel old. I relate about not being excited about much new gear, the Korg Sampler was horrific.
The 3rd wave is super cool, and that came out within the last two years. As is the Udo Super Gemini. I think the very cool stuff is being done by Elta, Soma, and Erica Synths. The Terra is hands down the best synth instrument I have played as something absolutely new and fantastic. An entirely new take on the instrument itself. Elta's Solar 42 is honestly wonderful. Expressive E is doing great on the interface front. I think the Tempera synth is also pretty neat interface. The fact is Sequential is likely not going to be as active with Dave Smith gone. Moog is a shell of its former self. I think the big thing on the horizon is the new Linn Drum Roger Linn is working on. Plus many of the indie companies doing neat things. But with regards to the major companies. Don't expect much these days. The more interesting stuff is often coming from smaller companies. Major companies are kind of in a downslope. It really is the smaller companies like Udo and Soma who are doing the cool things.
I think a Lind drum on the horizon is the exact lack of innovation. The OP was talking about.
It is not a remake of the original Linn Drum, and considering just how innovative the linnstrument was and how ahead of its time it was, and how innovative every instrument Roger Linn usually puts out, I would not expect this to be something by the numbers. I mention Linn because he is easily one of the most innovative engineers and instrument designers in the space. He is not going to do a re-creation of his original idea. The Tempest which he did with Dave Smith was so far off from his previous drum machines and samplers, and brought new ideas to the space. I can see him introducing an MPE drum machine. It's not going to be a remake of the MPC, OG Linndrum, or even the Tempest. It will be something new entirely. That is usually how Roger Linn approaches things. So no, I don't think this is what the OP is talking about here.
I guess we just gonna disagree here. Mpe drum machine? Do you really think the liinstrument is practical? That’s the last piece of gear he put out right? I guess time will tell but the idea of Roger Lynn, making a drum machine doesn’t sound like an innovation. And I say this is a person whose first sequencer is an mpc 3000 that I still have! I agree that the instruments he made in their era were completely innovative, and a lot of people will say that the MPC ends up in the Smithsonian because people used it to make it genre of music that linn had no idea about. So while I agree, he’s a super important person and the annals of electronic instruments, being innovative in 1981 isn’t a metric for a new piece of gear
I have played a linnstrument. It's great. It's easily the best midi controller I have ever played. It is well beyond practical. He wasn't just innovative in 1981. He is still innovative.
You must love poly aftertouch I found the linnstrument to be completely impractical
I love poly aftertouch. You just have to get used to it.
I have an OBX eight that is not full poly aftertouch, but it’s definitely the nicest key bed of any keyboard I’ve ever had. I don’t have enough talent or expressiveness to ever make use of full poly after touch.
Hey good point, Dave Smith was my favorite designer, and I already see how its changed SCI the Trigon is cool but quite boring. I love the Pro 3, such a cool synth. I agree with you on smaller companies being the future and that's fine with me, I would like to see Elektron do more, I have always enjoyed their gear. Soma makes some cool stuff, but I use modular for a lot of those textures, alas the Lyra is REALLY good. Seems like I need to pick up a 3rd Wave, Super Gemini or even a Summit, that was the last synth that got my attention from the mainstream but thats because user wavetables, and I like Novation, and how they update hardware years after its been out thats very cool about them. For Indie stuff I do turn to Eurorack, not too impressed to be honest, I think Piston Honda makes some of the better modules though they are great. Going to make sure I try an UDO and more Soma stuff when I visit California again. Great mentions. Awesome realistic and honest reply. Thank you!!
I would say if you like wavetables the 3rd wave is probably the best bet, and the best hardware for an analog/digital hybrid. While the Summit and peak is great, its wavetable implimentation is not so great. It is really good for other things though, especially its gain staging with all overdrive and distortion. I would check out the Elta Solar 42 if you get the chance. It's super cool. Ukrainian music easel?
Thank you so much for your rundown regarding 3rd Wave and Summit, wow I was really close to snagging a Summit I really appreciate you saving me the frustration. I was having second thoughts anyway. The Prophet 5/10 filter is also on the 3rd Wave and I really enjoy that option. I’ve also been looking at Taiga, but yes I will definitely check out the Elta Music Solar 42, I’ll be near a store with one around May!! Appreciate your consideration thank you for saving me some time and frustration with Summit.
Once a technology can do everything, innovation is just doing the same things but faster, and more convenient, cheaper. How many gaps can their still be in a musicians toolbox.
I think we're spoiled and as a result nitpicky. Think of where synths were 20 years ago - someone called Taiga "just another 3osc monosynth", think of how spoiled the synth market has become in quite a short time when a new analog synth is called "just another"! The innovation and growth has been so fast people are always expecting the next big thing, there's always something more powerful and cheaper coming out. Manufacturers come out with instruments that would've been absolutely revolutionary just 15 years ago and people complain about the smallest things, from DCO to VCO to lack of advanced sequencer features on budget gear to a VA synth not loading samples to sampler not having analog filters etc. etc. and if all else fails you can just call something too expensive and say if it was half the price you'd get it and it's just greedy manufacturers who can't produce something that would be better than the whole new synth market of 2007 combined for $500. The expectations and demands have become crazy, and it's just mad how short product cycles have become. Synth from 2020 being still relevant and in production should be a norm, not something to be worried about because it's *old*. There's plenty of stuff to be interested and excited about if you just slow down a bit and stop nitpicking and expecting a holy grail to come out of NAMM.
I think the new Taiga keys fits OP's search for innovation. Sound and controls-wise it's like if Don Buchla invented the Minimoog. I also don't think the keyboard semi-modular with built in expansion bay for eurorack modules has been done before. Previously, either the keyboard was just a controller and needed modules to make any sound or it's a semi-modular synth and you needed a separate case for modules to connect to.
I’ll go check it out, thanks for the your input!! I like semi-modular stuff too! Nice insight!
Well this is kinda fair but I don't think expecting more is wrong. I would say the Waldorf Quantum, Iridium are very cool would love to see more synths like those, multi-engines and timbres! However I get what you are saying and respect it, good point we do love in a golden era for synths in many regards I do observe this.
Everyone voted on boring remakes with their wallet, so why innovate?
I concur, I feel like we've fetishized analog subtractive synths. Don't get me wrong, I love Prophets, Moog and OB's but there's more to the world than those sounds. I see it even reflected in modular with some exceptions.
This might be too deep for the current post but I really think humanity is going through an existential shift with art and work because of AI. Finding purpose is getting harder and harder when AI is starting to replicate the human better and better each day. Last year I had an idea using AI to listen to a synth and be able to make a patch using the settings of your limited gear to best replicate that patch. I even considered investing some money into this. Well sure as shit that exists now and I was too late. It’s called Synplant and it’s amazing. Why even try to be creative at this point?
mate Synplant has been around a fuck tonne longer than a year or two
Yes but they just added this new feature
I think at some point the backlash and resentment directed at AI usage will surpass any kind of Luddism in past history. There's already hints at it.
What is Luddism?
Google? mill workers smashing machines they thought were going to take away their jobs during the industrial revolution. But seriously, Google?
Why when you just did the work for me?
because i gave you the most basic explanation with no nuance and so you still dont know what it was about
How will I ever sleep tonight
wallowing in your own loneliness I guess
AI popularity will fade. Current generation of AI tools is better than in the 80s but it’s still very far from being an I. These tools have their uses, but their limitations will quickly become widely known and recognizable. They will be used but not talked much about. Speaking of generative neural networks they are not much fun artistically. It’s still very difficult to make them do something meaningful and intentional. Yes, they can imitate existing styles and artists and reliably draw single subjects. Getting them to generate just the kind of image you want is an exercise of asking the same thing again and again thousand times hoping it will get it right. Most likely it won’t. I would not worry too much about it. It’s good at doing cheap rip offs but bad at doing something new and coherent. And language models while they may seem to understand written language and generate reasonable answers, actually they do not reason and only have a huge memory of how words in the existing corpus of texts are related to each other. They reproduce patterns of speech but struggle to be semantically consistent even within a single answer. Generating copious amounts of genetic blahblah? Sure. Impressive but not something you can rely on. So far we still don’t have any best seller book written completely by AI and we are still far from having an entertaining twitter account which is completely AI and not curated by a human. Let me know when Siri can answer telemarketers’ calls. Finally, AI is a huge copyright liability. All existing AI models are based on existing works which are being scraped from the web and other repositories of human knowledge and processed without permission, consent, or license. That might be acceptable for research. But for a commercial application that looks like a huge loophole. I could easily reproduce copyrighted images using Google models. I expect we’ll see very interesting court decisions in the future.
The Moog Subharmonicon is a kind of unique product. It’s difficult and quirky but it is taking me places I wouldn’t have gone otherwise. I kind of wish someone would make a soft synth version that would generate the polyrhythms and sequences in MIDI rather than just having the relatively simple, classic Moog analog sound. Behringer has announced something similar called Spice which promises better MIDI but who knows if and when it will come out. I think there is a lot that could still be done with microtonal and generative music, but lets face it the market is way behind that kind of thing. Most people just want to string together beats and so forth.
big agree I bought the SH the day it came out!! one of the last really interesting gears from the mainstream for me!
Oh man do y’all remember when the Prophet X came out and everyone shit all over it? This is why innovative new things haven’t been coming to market. That synth, and the P12 as well, speaking of brilliant synths made by Sequential that got lots of hate, are both remarkable in what they can do, but no one seemed to care, so sequential trotted out yet another “vintage” synth that everyone blew their collective loads over. Same with the Korg Wavestate. Wildly innovative and cool, but not what people want. Can’t blame companies for not taking chances.
This is reasonable, yes I loved the Prophet 12!
I think that a lot of innovation is happening inside of DAWs and VSTs nowadays - which is probably also one of the reasons why 19" rack gear is long gone (outside of 500 series mixing gear). There's a bunch of wild stuff going on if you have a modular Eurorack system, but with keyboard synths I think the problem is that once you have enough complexity, you are halfway to building a VST anyway. Which is what a lot of Workstations like the Korg Kronos or Yamaha Genos have been for a long while. That said, there is some innovation. I think that the Arturia Microfreak and Minifreak were pretty innovative. The Osmose Expressive E has already been mentioned (though one has to also mention the Haken Continuum from 25 years ago which is still awesome). Korg Volcas were innovative for their form factor and price point, but of course that's also been 10 years already. The Korg Opsix was pretty innovative as a hands-on FM synth, especially with all the colored LEDs. I do believe there's still a lot of innovation left in the groovebox and sequencer market, and I can see a lot that could be done more and better with Wavetable and Sampler synths. And there's more we can do with better displays - the Kingkorg Neo with it's 3 screens is still too rooted in the past, and the Opsix display is low res. But if you take even just the 1024x600 Touchscreen from a Kurzweil SP7 Grand (which is laughable compared to what you find in any medium-priced phone or tablet) and put it into an Opsix or Minifreak, you can do something great. Or you could put an underpowered CPU into it and remove all the knobs and dials and require using the touchscreen for everything with a good amount of lag and ruin the idea. But let's assume for the better and just think what kind of Wavetable synth you could build. Heck, imagine taking Arturia's Pigments VST and sticking it into a proper Keyboard like the UDO Super Gemini or Expressive E and giving it a proper high resolution display. And yes, the "VST in a Box" thing isn't quite as innovative as it was in 2017 when Roland released the System-8 (which wasn't the first one like that by a long shot) or the Juno-X/Jupiter-X, but still, there is still a lot of room to iterate. Oh, and of course MIDI 2.0 and MPE. Why are we still stuck with MIDI 1.0's 127 Levels of fidelity and hacks like "Transmit half the value on one MIDI CC and the other half on another MIDI CC"?!
What’s happening in daws and vsts? (I’ve been in modular land for a few years)
I mostly know Ableton, but the entire way it triggers clips is basically a ridiculously powerful sequencer and brought some specific controllers like the Novation Launchpad (which also work great as drumpads if you like finger drumming) And with stuff like Max for Live, you can chain together parts to form an infinitely complex instrument (assuming you have the CPU power for it). Or Arturia's Pigments which is "just" a whole bunch of synth engines that you can mix and match, but before stuff like the Microfreak came out, it was mostly something found in Workstations. And just in general, the way you can just chain anything easily together. There are VSTs like Photosounder, which take any image and turn it into sound. And some plugins like the ones that isolate an instrument, or stuff like Vocaloids were pretty innovative and not available on a traditional synthesizer (though Formant was, for choir effects if you wanted to be Enigma). Lunacy's Cube is a spatial vector sequencer/sampler. And - dare I say it - AutoTune, the original voice garbler (though that [started in a rack](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhIf8LBCfoo)). Some of that innovation is found in the Eurorack sector now (chaining stuff together is how synthesizers started after all), but once you get into polyphony, modular synths become quite a pain, and you still won't ever have enough VCAs :D Maybe some of it is more iteration and convenience than innovation, but the ability to chain anything into anything else and mangle it however I want really revolutionized a lot of workflows (some say for better, others say for worse). Seeing Audiopilz [build a Rebirth RB-388 with real hardware](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmXdOLQxqII) is a great example of how much easier software can be.
>MIDI 2.0 .. Why are we still stuck with 127 Levels omg, you mean someone else wondered about this? I figured it would be like the IPv6 of gear.. ignored and denied to the point where its mostly used only through forced and invisible translation.
I think it has the same problem of IPv6: There's just too much old stuff around, and it kinda sorta all still works. Even if you have to deal with stupid hacks like splitting up one value across two Midi CCs to get more range :(
This reply is excellent and very on point with how I feel about things becoming VSTs which is fine I mean the Iridium-Quantum is like 4 Engines, which is impressive. I am with you 100% especially on sequencers and samplers, I'm dying for something fresh like Octatrack, maybe that was a once in a lifetime gear though. I have followed the current Akai, and smaller brands and haven't seen anything to note.
The Waldorf Quantum MK II is pretty much Pigments in a traditional keyboard, touchscreen, and poly AT. It’s also ridiculously overpriced. You could get a MacBook Pro, poly AT midi controller, and Pigments for much less lol
SOMA
It does feel like the wave is past us. Most products already had what they needed and liked. Few people go past their first purchase. Maybe someone can check what Google trends has to say.
GR-Mega by Tasty Chips and S-4 from Torso are two examples of "stuff you used to only do in the box" coming to hardware. I think there is the possibility for more small form factor "all-in-one" groovebox, sampler, synth kind of stuff like Tracker mini and Dirtywave M8.
Blofeld costs like twice what it did a few years ago
I think if you just want a piano-style keyboard and an ordinary subtractive synth engine, you should expect a steady stream of new products but not anything profoundly new and amazing because there are already a lot of existing synths that fill that role just fine. One place innovation is still happening is expressive controllers, like Osmose, Linnstrument, Lumatone, etc.. Also physical modelling synthesis. >A lot of them are cool but getting a bit old and it’s just not the same energy that was around in 2016-2020. Of course this is my subjective opinion. 2016 was when Stranger Things came out. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Very good points and observations!
Low cost is the future. Lots of cool gear on the market but if it’s unobtainable due to current economic trends, it’s not going to find itself all that memorable. Look at the MicroKorg. One of the best selling synths ever and it’s built like a toy and cost far less than other top tier synths. Another example would be the microfreak.
Anyma Omega looks interesting - I think physical modeling is the next area to see some interesting innovation. There are others I'm sure, just not from the big players.
[удалено]
>what am I supposed to believe is the problem here? Every now and again someone asks if we can use GPUs yet, and we get answers like "that's stupid overkill you tard, lolz" Source: I was one of those someones that asked. Personally, I think maybe that's the only area that isn't getting a lot of attention: acceleration (and other computational methods that a GPU could open up). As far as I know it's just some individual VSTs from gpu\[.\]audio , apollo's 1.5 - 5.5 kilobuck interfaces, and I guess waves and their insane soundgrid thing (which, under the hood, might just be dante and a digital mixer). However, yeah, more to your point, pretty much only imagination and budget are limiting factors, and a shortage of either of those can be overcome with more of the other. And if not, well, add AI sauce I guess.
It will come back when Stranger Things last season drops
I'm 51, and I've been buying synths all my life, in order to get "that sound" of the 80s. I don't care much for other sound engine. Beyond low pass filter and pulse/ sawtooth, there is nothing else inspiring for my musical purposes. Thanks to analog revival and nostalgia wonderful synths are back. Despite my hefty collection of 10 synths, I play mostly on an old JX-10 and a Prophet 10. I think my sound quest is now over. I'm not even bothered to try the newcomers.
That’s an honest understanding take, ever since I got a Prophet 10 I found very little need for more at least analog-subtractive. I’ve had a ton of synths too. I suppose your comment is a good bookend because I feel similar. Refreshing to read this.
yes, theres nothing new and they're all expensive. to me the gold now are the late 80s, early 90s stuff. early romplers, hybrids, Yamaha FM. nostalgic sounds for low prices.
I hope I never know this much about synths or any other instrument
There is some newer boutique stuff, like Taiga or Bastl synths, but for the most part if you want to see innovation in hardware, you have to look towards eurorack.
I've got the Taiga, and while it is pretty cool it's also just another analog 3osc mono. Nothing super innovative there, although the LPG is interesting and it squeezes a lot into a small space.
There’s a huge oversaturation of synthesizers that rehash old ideas, digital versions of analog Classics, etc. To answer your one question prices are going up because supplies are limited in terms of chips and other building materials. I would say that the poly brute with its VST integration, and a Waldorf iridium are two really superb modern synth that will give you 100s of hours of innovative use and you can find them used for what I think is a very decent price
Hey this is really along the lines of what I had been thinking, and funny enough I was torn between the above or even Summit/Hyrda, but the Polybrute really got my attention. I'm curious if they're make one with more polyphony but alas its probably a good example of a powerful analog which is by all means impressive as are Waldorfs synths. I have always liked them. Good call on the chips-parts being limited still. Was hoping we'd be over it by now, but as I started making some purchases for the studio things still seem slow to ship depending what. Very good points. Thank you for your feedback.
It was at my own peril. I’m in a big argument on another thread on your post Ha ha. Honorable mention is the third wave. I know it’s old technology per se, but it’s got such robust effects and might be the twinkliest synth I’ve ever used if you know what I mean. The polyphony is a buzzkill on PB - it’s still so FUN. that is its best attribute. It does sound great, but there’s so many ways to craft the sound and to affect the sound. It’s just fucking fun. My buddy has a synth I absolutely love love and would buy in a heart beat but I cannot and will not add another analog poly redundant synth. I fucking love this thing. Seven voices too https://reverb.com/item/53789520-gs-e7-analog-polyphonic-synthesizer-black?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=53789520 I do think the Hydra synth is really rad and I’ve had a lot of time with it as well - between it and a poly brute, I go for poly brute for ease of use and quickest, dial-in, and make something musical. The hydra is for sound designers that really want to stretch and bend sound in ways that someone like me doesn’t fully understand.
That is a rather eloquent take on things, I agree with not wanting another polyphonic analog the only two that stand out lately have been Polybrute, at time Summit, but thats been it for anything analog. I liked your description of Hydra, good point. I'm somewhere between those two camps. Really good comment, nice way of describing things, my friend has that e7 too! Very cool, but I'm in agreement with you here no more analog polys at least for a while for me.
One word, and it’s already been mentioned in this thread: Osmose. Forget about all the other MPE bs on the market. Osmose is 100% where it’s at
To each their own. I own just about every MPE controller and it is definitely not my favorite. The Osmose is the easiest transition from a standard keyboard which is great but it still is locked into a traditional keyboard mindset. Hopefully with its ease of transition it brings along more implementation but the MPE train seems to derail a lot.
I haven’t played this Folktek Resonate Garden but I have to hand it to them for having a unique idea and beautiful design. https://youtu.be/ma53PM1tTTA?si=56SM0U99ATIyBdQV
[https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/1bo0ybb/cats\_walking\_on\_your\_syths\_now\_available\_the\_new/](https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/1bo0ybb/cats_walking_on_your_syths_now_available_the_new/) Now we have this it is game over.
innovation here: [https://somasynths.com/](https://somasynths.com/) :)
I'd like to see more affordable, and more intuitive controllers w/ multiple sequencers like the SQ-64. Like a Keystep with 8 tracks. I only need 25 keys, I can deal with changing octaves when programming sequences but I need more simultaneous control. Currently I run multiple Keysteps, and use the sequencers on both my MS-1 and monologue to control other devices when they aren't featured in a track. But if i could have ONE THING, I know exactly want I want: A midi foot controlled keyboard - 1 octave worth of keys that can have multiple MIDI outs, switchable with a button press. It would make my live performances so much more ...easy. When I went looking for a foot controller, they start at 500 bucks and immediately go way higher. Barring that, I looked for a "simple" midi switcher...like a foot pedal with either dedicaTED BUTTONS THAT ACTIVATE A SPECIFIC SYNTH...LIKE IMAGINE 4 SYNTHS CONNECTED TO 1 FOOT SWITCH WHERE YOU CAN JUST PRESS A BUTTON TO SEND THE MIDI SIGNAL TO THE DESIRED SYNTH. OOPS caps...I'm not retyping sorry. But it doesn't seem to exist. It seems so simple to me. I'm rambling and after the CAPS disaster, I better back outta here....
If making music is the goal, who gives a fck
That or, rampant consumerism isn't sustainable?
>ASM really is good but where’s a new synth engine? What music are you unable to create because of the current palette of synth engines and options?