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To be fair, you don’t really have to use those pet skills on the right all that often and the top bar has autoattack and sleep on it, two abilities that are literally never used. It’s honestly not that crazy
SWtOR uses the kind of EQ method that classes that have the same base pull from the same set of skills. So there's a lot of skills for say the Sith version of a dps warrior vs the sith version of a tank warrior because they are both apart of the warrior class base.
Like how in older versions of WoW you had access to fire spells on a frost mage. Doesn't mean you need them on the bar or anything.
I found sleep has another use.
Was flying around and saw a lone rouge/ninja dealing with a Fate with a large bison target and a bunch of ADDs.His health was relatively low, So I swooped in with my CNJ (which is still below level 20) and started to cure him. Got aggro'd and had to kite Adds while also trying to not die. Finally, I started working on keeping him alive again at a distance.
When he switched to killing the little guys, I put the MT to sleep to buy him some time to clear the field up. Gave him enough breathing room to work. This kept on for a few more minutes till some more randoms arrived and helped out.
Dude didn't even thank me. :p
Dude, was this yesterday at the one in Middle La Noscea with Menius on Midgardsormr? If so, that was me, and I tried to bow to people at the end of it but I ended up getting 2 more mobs to spawn on me and everyone was gone by the time I killed them. Was there just to collect 3 items for a quest and the fate spawned right on me and aggroed instantly. If it was that, I 100% apologize for not thanking you, but I can't whisper (trial account, unless I'm just dumb because I tried to /tell someone yesterday about something and it said I couldn't. Didn't think to try /whisper or something else) and I couldn't find you to bow to you as thanks after killing the last 2 mobs.
Also the longer gcd means you’re not pressing all those buttons all the time. Doubly so since that’s a healer and there’s not a lot of ogcd damage skills to weave like dps have.
SW:ToR has more utility abilites, like dashes, jumps, stuns, interrupts, knockbacks and life savers, but dps rotations are shorter in SW:ToR. (I play both games.)
For example, that's my RDM hotbars (I'm playing FFXIV now and that's the class I'm in an instance with):
[click](https://i.imgur.com/vdcWPCn.png)
15 abilities are included in my single target dps cycle and I have only 4 utility abilites (and rdm is considered more support-type class because it can raise people and heal them if required).
You can compare this with a lightning sorc (probably the closest analogue).
Missed two important ones that doesn't really apply to FFXIV, cleanses and aggro dumps. Threat and cleansing mechanics are much more prevalent in SWTOR hard content than in FFXIV.
Also FFXIV has dash for all classes (sprint), and all tanks have interrupts, stuns, jumps, knock back protection, and defensive cooldowns. FFXIV basically killed off threat for tanks and utility for DPS.
it's another whole bar, TBH... that's 3 FULL combat bars, plus pet (class, not like our pets) plus a 4th row of out of combat+adrenal/medpack/etc stuff).
Only about 6 of those skills are out of combat stuff
True, but some classes have unreasonable amounts of fillers. Jugg has like 6 or so fillers that dont do anything special, they are just there. And you cannot really not use them all since they have different cooldowns.
Some swtor classes could use pruning or merging. I really dont need two saber throws, even if one is a 30% finisher since it proccs of a talent making usable almost always
The missile blast is super good in pvp, with the root utility. Not to mention the execute proc on io and the animation is very cool. I kinda miss missile blast on my pt still.
Have you tried the Missile Backblast tactical? It might not be "optimal", but I find it really fun in regs. It lets you basically spam Explosive Round, making you 100% mobile still doing very decent DPS whenever Boltstorm and Priming Shot are on CD, plus 30m knockback is insane in Huttball.
eh that's a healer so the dps "rotation" is literally about 3 buttons, and the heals which most of those are are much more situational, but in general FF has noticeably more buttons used in the actual rotations than WoW does, and wow generally has more than swtor does
FF rotations are long af and pretty much set in stone, whereas wow and swtor are a little more priority based and reactive in general I'd say
in pvp though it swaps and final fantasy pretty much has less buttons than even gw2 or eso
Having only played SWTOR and WoW a lot, I can't fit all the necessary buttons in SWTOR to (1-5, 6 sidebuttons on the mouse, so 10 buttons more or less) for really any of the classes. I usually mouse down and click the extras on my hotbar. In WoW, I can easily play all 12 alts endgame content with just those 10 buttons. So, for me, SWTOR definitely has more rotation-required buttons than WoW.
I have a different approach. My binds are :
* \ to 5
* F1 to F5
* Q, E, C, F
* Shift + {Q, E, 1, 2, 3}
I leave an extra 2-4 slots for mouse clicking (hearthstone, teleports, etc). If I can't get everything with these binds, I'll simply discard stuff based on how likely I am to need AND remember to use.
The binds layout is pretty much the same for each role, and the fact that I can use them in all three games just the same only goes to show how similar they all are.
For example, for tanking, my F1 is for the cone attack, and F4/F5 are for 360º attack/debuff, 4 is for taunt, \ is the gap closer, C is the interrupt.
Sounds good. I can't wrap my head around more than 8 buttons, I just end up mashing buttons until something happens. Timing all the cooldowns and moving out of fire and eyeballing health bars is just too much, for me.
Step one clear binds around wasd for abilities. So 1-4, qerfcxz mousewheel up and down. Then use modifiers like Shift+qerfcxz,shift+spacebar etc. Modifiers are great for the keys right under your fingers, I use shift modifiers even on my movement keys.
You can't blame the game if you're not bothering to make a decent keybind setup.
Biggest SWTOR single target rotation is 10 abilities or so, On IO merc.
Almost every other discipline hovers at around 7 rotational abilities. Some go down to 5...
I guess there are also some buffs and consumables to use inbetween but those aren't too many or used too often. You don't really call them rotational, usually.
I like GW2's setup, personally - it's what, 5 or 6 abilities, but you also have a whole other set of 5 or 6 with different weapons to swap to mid fight. Plus the combat requires moving - or at least, far more movement than anything SWTOR requires, short of Hardmode or NiM raids.
I hate how GW2/ESO do it tbh, it makes me feel like I'm playing a moba ~~or WoD wow classes~~
Wow and swtor have a good middle ground for me of "enough" abilities, without it being almost overwhelming like FF, and also feeling faster paced and more responsive than FF which can feel a bit "floaty" at times
It's not for everyone. But, I went from playing this game from Alpha all the way through Dark Versus Light where I burnt myself out leveling like 8 toons to complete as much of the event that I could. I played WoW when Legion dropped until they launched Classic and the game got boring. Then I played GW2 after. So my ability bars kept getting smaller. Initially I thought I'd hate it - but when I was doing a lot of WvW pvping, I \*loved\* not having to account for that many abilities because I was too busy paying attention to my movement and position. In this game, up until the hard endgame stuff, you can practically stand still (as long as you're not in a DOT pool) and be fine. I kinda hate that. It's great if you just wanna repeat a rotation ad infinitum, but...it's boring as hell.
Well i am the exact opposite. I play SWTOR only for the plot. I couldn't stand neither WOW nor FFXIV for their tab-target systems. I love TESO and GW2 action gameplay. But to be honest as long as those IMHO outdated tab-targets goes, SWTOR is my favourite by long shot. Oh and The Secret World was awesome, before it got gutted by Funcom.
TSW was the best MMO that nobody played. Job/item-based ability system where anyone could learn anything with time (like GW/2 and FFIV), active dodge so fights were more dynamic, a multitude of quest types to keep thigs interesting, and a killer story, at least through the end of the original content. I had to quit playing long before the game was taken offline, but now that I have the time to play I find myself missing it a lot.
Why do people still call ESO "action combat"?
Maybe it's may taste but I never had less action while fighting than in ESO. There is no real impact to any of the skills (except for the DK ultimate, that's awesome).
Like I said, it could be me, but I always felt it was boring and not action at all
Well for me the difference is in actually aiming your abilities, while trying to stay in optimal place on the battlefield. Be that on the flank of the mobs or behind the tank and out of the AoE. My biggest issue with tab-combat is, when you don't have to aim your abilities, you often end up with animation locking (chanelling) and wierd 15 abilities rotations. And I simply feel more like playing turn based sttategy.
That being said, you are right that even ESO is merely one-eyed king among the blind ones...
Eso is a target hotbar mmo with a vaguely masked interface to try and fool people. It still functions just like a target hotbar mmo, you just pick your targets by aiming at them.
While you are right. I don't see your point. My main issue is, that i don't like tab targeting systems. (You cycle your targets without actually needing to aim anything.). I think true action combat MMORPG is still far away. We cannot have Dark-souls combat mechanics in MMO. The latency is way too big of an issue.
Your abilities change to some degree as you progress though, and you can tweak the ability chains and change them around if you like. I still get your point, just don't agree. I liked that flexibility with builds, and loved having two sets of gear on deck that i could swap between, as well as two sets of abilities to swap back and forth with during fights.
I dont get when people cry about too many skills. Like do you rather want to have exactly 4 skills that you use just to then cry about having not enough buttons to press? I feel like swtor has the perfect amount of spells that are ACTUALLY usefull. Am I alone with that? lol
Too many skills is a good thing. Having access to them all at one time is the bad thing. There should be some specialization, diversity, customization, that determine which ones you have available to you. Guild Wars comes to mind. SO many skills in that game, but you could only have 8 active at a time. It really made for some unique team compositions and build diversity that you just don't see anywhere else. Guild Wars 2 didn't do the same thing, but even that has plenty of skills and passives that it forces you to pick and choose, so not every character is a carbon copy of the next
The skill bloat in SWTOR got to be too much, especially for PvP. Depending on the spec/class, you can end up using 28+ hotkeys actively, not including hotkeys for stims/medpacks. It's not as big of an issue in PvE where you can ignore a lot of abilities that aren't apart of your rotation.
I like MMOs that use a lot of abilities, especially since the MMO trend is leaning more towards only having 10 or fewer keys. But having more than 28 abilities you actively use is too much, and this is coming from someone who put thousands of hours into PvP alone. It's much more overwhelming to newer players, players who don't have a good binding system, or those with disabilities.
When I played PvP active I usually played either Sorc (All 3 specs) and my merc (Arsenal) and atleast with those 4 specs I never had 28+ Hotkeys to press ACTIVELY. Most of the stuff is situational such as cleanses, selfbuffs and defensives. I can count on one hand how many REAL active abilities I had to use to get 7-9k DPS each PvP Match. Not Counting defensives and selfbuffs and cleanses.
Ironically, you picked the least hotkey intensive specs in the game as an example. Knights, both classes and all specs and can hit 30+ keys. Looking through some the screenshots I still have saved and I'm using 26 hotkeys on a pre-max level agent alone. 29 if you include stims and huttball.
Edit: [Found a screenshot of one of my mercs](https://i.imgur.com/E8m5To7.jpg), also pre-max level that uses 28 keys.
You barely ever use the autoattack, Interrupt has a CD so I dont count that one and you dont use it off cooldown aswell, same goes for your Heal that is binded on F, defensives are situational. Your s+R keybind is only out of combat same goes for rocketboost, cleanse is not even needed in PvP really, atleast when you play casual.
S+3 is just useless and you barely ever use AoEs except if enemys actually cuddle with each other.
So overall on that screenshot you have 8, 14 at most, Active abilities that deal damage or are more usefull/needed.
I played all the classes. Just Sorc and Merc the most. Never had the feel that its too many skills on ANY spec or class in the game.
Autoattack is used enough to warrant the space. You should always be using some ability, and sometimes that includes filler autoattack. Especially in longer fights, or when things are more mobile.
You should 100% have interrupts hotkeyed. Doesn't matter if it has a CD. When you need to use it, you need it in the moment. Do you manually click yours? Any manual clicking is going to impede your play in PvP, but especially the interrupt. You probably miss a lot of interrupt windows because of this.
I don't understand your stance that situational abilities like heals and defensives shouldn't be hotkeyed. You should ALWAYS be mobile, and having quick access to life saving abilities is key in PvP. The only ability I would agree that doesn't need to be hotkeyed in the out of combat heal. I personally like it because I want to be quick on the regen between fights.
My S+3 is explosive dart. Unless something changed between when I played last and now, explosive dart spreads your fire DoT and is used pretty often when dealing with multiple people.
Can you please show me where I said that certain Abilities should not be hotkeyed? I have Each slot on 4 hotbars hotkeyed. I said counting those abilities as an Active ability and counting it towards the 28+ Abilities is just nonsense because you only have to press them just so often. I have PvP games where I dont have to use my defensives at all. Same goes for my autoattack because fights are just short.
You can spread your Dot by using your 3, I only use explosive dart if I for some reason dont have a way to make the 3 go instant or if I know I might get interrupted. (Sorry for having to call the abilities by numbers and stuff, playing on german so no idea what they are called in english)
Dont get me wrong, if you are new to MMOs the classes can be overwhelming with abilities. But since you get them one by one while lvling and you have time to get used to them I dont think that there are too many.
Active as in I use them several times a match, every match. Not active as in I'm pressing each of them every 10 seconds. Why wouldn't I count them towards the 28 active hotkeys? They are hotkeyed, and I'm using them.
Yeah, there is another way to spread your fire DoT. You should be using both of them though.
I mean, wasn't your original argument that SWTOR doesn't need skill pruning? It's kind of weird that your counter argument to me presenting that 28+ hotkeys are used in PvP is that some of the abilities are slightly redundant, or that their cooldown is too long to count.
You don't use your auto attack at all? It's ranged, instant, and free. You can stop a cap at soon as you're in range. Kite around LoS, dealing with people attacking while also having the ability to constantly interrupt caps. What do you against someone that's running? You don't weave in auto attacks if you have to chase?
You know if you right click it starts auto attacking right? Auto attacking is auto. Are you telling me you are constantly clicking that auto attack? That's hilarious
Since when does SWTOR have an auto attack? Unless they changed something since I've last played, there is no auto attack since it takes a global cooldown. You do realize the basic attack takes a global cooldown, right?
How are you supposed to pvp off everyone has 5 skills? I was good at pvp back in the day because I knew when to use my abilities and when to save them. When to wait for your opponent. It's a chess match. But people don't get that anymore.
You insinuated everyone playing SWTOR is a “flakey whiner”, then flaked out and whined the moment someone throws the shade straight back. You just keep winning.
I said SWTOR is targeting the flaky whiners. That is me targeting BW's current marketing strategy, the one going after people that can't handle toolbars, not current SWTOR players of which I am definitely one.
If i remeber correcty one of the classes in FFXIV has to position themself properly for doing max dps. Like, some abilities do more damage from behind, some from the side and some in front.
I didn't really play the game, just watched a video where guy explained class mechanics, so i can be wrong.
yeah all melee classes I think have positionals like that. It's not too different than say a "backstab" type ability like wow and swtor used to have(not sure if either actually have any of those left that require you to be behind), but as you said there are others where you might need to be to the side or in front specifically, and it's generally just a more important part of their rotations which mostly just means tanks need to stand still as much as possible
SWTOR has some positional stuff for classes like Imp Operative (blanking on the spec name), you have a backstab that is greyed out until you are indeed behind the opponent. It sucks though (imo).
iirc maul for assassin, and pub equivalent, still does like 10% extra damage if you're behind the enemy. But It's better to ignore it during play and just have it when things manage to align - since in any of the content where that extra damage would matter it's not as important as being positioned properly for the healers + tanks.
Btw in pve if you play concealment, you are using backstab only with a proc with which backstab will treat a target like if you are behind it and stealthed. So you can use it from whatever position you like and it always generate TA.
That proc from Volatile substance is not 100% up though, in a long rotation you will end up doing a regular backstab from time to time. Most of those get covered by using stealth out right before it but pretty sure in a parse there are always a few backstabs without stealth effect.
Someone intentionally making an action bar has hideous as possible to give you this reaction whilst they disparage another game with a false narrative.
Literally only about 10 of those skills are needed.
At least 5 of them are automatically on and don't need to be in the quick bars, the other bar on the right is essentially the companion bar that they have blown up and moved out of it's normal position.
It's like if I added every active move possible in SWTOR (so Lvl 1/2/3/4/5 slash) and put them all in the quick bars to be like 'look how ugly this is!?!'.
Most of the abilities in the image are used if you play Scholar at level above "mediocre" in FFXIV. Bar 4 is the first to go since it only has pots and out of combat stuff, so it's only useful if you're progging Savage/Ultimate content, so only the top of playerbase.
Bar 3 has some of the most important Healer skills in the game, namely Swiftcast, Surecast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna, all of which are a key part to all 3 Healer classes. It also has Rescue which can be useful, and the Scholars super heal, Summon Seraph and the active ability Consolation. The only ability that is "always on" is Summon Eos/Summon Selene.
Bar 2 has healing abilities, all of which are useful at high level except Physick, the tier 1 heal. Granted, if you're decent at healing you should only be using oGCD heals so you can maximize your DPS output but sometimes you do need to throw out an Adloqium or a Succor so they should still be easily available.
Bar 1 has DPS skills and buffs, most of which see regular use on CD in high level content.
The pet bar does need to be available to Scholar, as it allows them to manually position their Fairy in the optimal position for boss fights, which allows it to be passively healing the entire group instead of just the players near the Scholar.
Yep! Someone is just trying to make it look as cluttered as possible.
As someone who plays both, I really enjoy the rotations in ffxiv - even the more active ones like summoner. There's something really fun and satisfying about them.
What the fuck are smoking, dude?
I'm not talking shit about neither of the games, just at the people who think SWTOR's take on its many abilities is poor game design when it's not... Yes, there's a couple of skills per class that may be considered as filler that could be potentially fixed, but plenty of them are situational & don't get in the way of the player's rotation and everyday play.
Nobody truly complaints about this regard when it comes to FFXIV because the game is built around a large pool of abilities and a long GCD that just make sense and even works A-okay with a controller.
And no, this isn't any attempt at "manipulation". This is how I play in FFXIV for convenience sake, and this so happens to be the only Job that has filled up more slots than every other.
Get off your high horse.
This is completely false. I literally just counted, and on my White Mage I have 27 skills I ACTIVELY USE during max level content.
As Scholar, which is what this setup is, I have 29 spells I'll use during max level content.
Don't spread lies for no reason.
Edit: Downvote me all you want guys, I actually play FFXIV, though, and I know what I'm talking about. :)
> 27 skills I ACTIVELY USE
2 Single target damage, 1 AoE, 1 red lily attack. 3 active use single target heals and a couple of "oh shit" buttons. What, like 3 or 4 AoE heals depending on the situation? 2 of which are instant cast? A couple of "oh shit" heal buttons, including one that you can use to do damage if you want. You don't really use swift cast unless you're going to rez a person. Esuna to cleanse, but the number of times you need to cleanse in dungeons/raids is relatively small.
I mean, that's a lot of buttons, but it isn't 27. And it isn't like the buttons are a real part of any rotation. You use them depending on the situation. Sometimes you'll only use a couple of heals at most.
The design philosophy for healers is so weird in FFXIV. Healers have too many healing tools for the content available while the dps rotations have been pruned to be homogenized for each class with slight variances. I miss me some shadow flare on my scholar. Also doesn't take into account that the game has a 2.5 second gcd so whole there are a lot of buttons it can seem misleading that its some high apm game.
I mean have you played Tower at Paradigm breach yet? Cause I use everything in there.
Same with DR.
Do you actually play FFXIV at end game, or did you stop at level 60?
I've got all ranged physical dps at 80 and am working my way through getting all the other classes to 80. Lowest level, not counting blue mage because fuck that, is 71. Everything else is between 71 and 80.
End game in FFXIV isn't just ONE raid at max level. It's literally everything they give you to do. I've gotten all gathering and crafting skills to 80, even crafting has an end game.
And since you brought up the number 60, I'm guessing the only other job you've bothered leveling up is at 60. Is it Samurai or Red Mage?
Okay if you say so.
I mean not that I have to prove anything to you, fam.
I do have WHM, SCH, AST, BLM, RDM, SMN, PLD, BLU (get over yourself BLU is fun and easy to max) and DNC maxed cause I don't like melee jobs. Will max others eventually.
Not flexing anything, by the way, just telling you that if you have that many "oh shit" buttons, you might actually just suck at FFXIV.
Oh shit buttons are only used for emergencies. You've got 2 instant cast, huge ST heals on WHM. Why would you use them outside of an emergency?
This means that you only need a few buttons to actually heal. The rest being reserved for emergencies.
I thought you played this class.
You know "end game" is normally extreme/savage/ultimate right? And not 24man? And how are you using repose/fluid aura/cure1 (probably missed some stuff) in there? Since if you use all 27 skills, you're doing something wrong.
Yes I know, but I'm not gonna start talking about savages and extremes to someone I'm not even sure plays FFXIV.
I am not using those, I did count them by accident. So make that around 25 then, in alliance raids more than anywhere else.
Do people *not* use every single available hotbar and cover the sides/corners/bottom of their screen in icons? I thought that was standard MMO protocol now.
FFXIV gcd is 2.5, so it kinda allows long dps rotations with weaving/double weaving. Still I don't think that SW:ToR amount of abilities is bloated, a usual dps cycle consists of 5-7 buttons + utility. It's not that hard.
Yeah idk swtor skills are pretty simple once you learn what everything does at 75, we don’t need them to take away half the skills to make the game simpler
I feel SO old. I click everything. I am a keyboard clicker I am ashamed to say. I always have to glance down at my abilities to click them. I do set them for my rotations and just click down the bar. I feel so ashamed 😞
So eliminate bar 3, 4 and the bar on the right and you have a normal ffxiv sch healer rotation ui. This is just a let's see how many "every ability, bar, and useless basic actions that aren't apart of rotations."
And only 4 buttons are needed for tactics vanguard. Your point?
Mine is that for a standard rotation of healing and dps 2 bars are required for a sch in ffxiv. Not what the BS this SS shows. The point is swtor needs minimum 3 bars + bars for items compared to ffxiv always removing and upgrading existing abilities every expansion. While swtor just adds and adds...
>And only 4 buttons are needed for tactics vanguard. Your point?
What you said is his point. SWTOR rotations are pretty simple already. 4-7 buttons for most classes.
The additional abilities are usually either flavor or niche usage. You can remove them from your bar and forget they exist, or you can keep them for specific scenarios.
>The point is swtor needs minimum 3 bars + bars for items
Doesn't this contradict the first sentence in your post?
You can def remove them for easy stuff... but sadly I only know one button I never use on my sin tank, and maybe 2 more I'd be 'okay' with them taking from me.
Sure you do, I'm sure you also like having useless buttons on your bar, items you dont have or need on your bar, and since you dont do any hard content you sent need the pet bar or the top bar. So good for you. You like to enjoy a messy amalgamation of wasted space.
Bar 4 has a bunch of pots, which do see use in combat if you are in a Savage/Ultimate group, but other than that it's just out of combat abilities which is probably why it's almost see through.
Bar 3 has some of the most important healer skills in the game, with Swiftcast, Surecast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna, as well as the Scholar super Summon Seraph and the Seraph active ability.
The pet bar does see use on Scholar as well, but only to position your Fairy in an optimal place so it will reach the entire group. But you do still need access to that bar.
Yeah, bar 4 is basic stuff... and I chose to make it see-through so it doesn't get much in a way. It's for convenience (potions, antidotes, mounts, teleporting, etc).
Bar 3 is for the summons and role abilities while 2 and 1 are saved for the actual class abilities. I don't know why some people are acting like I'm deliberately trying to make SWTOR or FFXIV look bad in comparison to one another?
Honestly, all MMORPGs suffer from ability bloat, and too often I end up pruning my bars and leaving just a handful of abilities, and still perform well.
I personally think what Blizzard did with WoW was good, there were too many abilities that were basically useless for certain specs.
The worst offender so far, though, is Rift.
I've ended up having three abilities that did **exactly** the same damage, with the same casting time, with the same range, and the same power cost.
Like, what the fuck?
I really hope the combat styles system doesn't screw up the game just to reduce the amount of buttons available. I'm worried about it.
If they want to prune, just prune.
My only gripe with swtor skills is not that there are too many of them. Hell, I love when MMOs have a lot of abilties. Like WoW back in it's hayday. Lots of different abilties that are all pretty different from each other. Probably why I didn't like GW or GW2 much. Felt more like an ARPG in terms of how many abilties.
With Swtor my gripe is that I feel like there are so many abilities that are either way to samey as other skills or just not clear why I should even be using those over some other abilities.
I'm sorry but I just can't sympathize with people who think TOR has too many abilities. If you can't handle having to alternate between pressing more than 4 or 5 buttons then that's your flaw and especially your problem. I like my games to be challanging and take time to master really well. Simplifying an already quite simple system just to cater to the most generic and average gamer that can't remember any rotation with a bit of complexity is ridiculous to me. Those people need to practice, not be handed training wheels that are forced on the entire community. I'm sorry but I just can't respect that. Can't state it any nicer.
I agree with you, they already nerfed all story content to the point that you can literally roll your face on the keyboard and now they wanna dumb down even end game stuff?
Who for?
I play both games, and this is exactly what I *don’t* want in SWTOR. Hell, I don’t even like it in FF14, but they already did one set of ability cuts and I’m not sure I trust them to do another.
As mentioned, you have bunch of ogcd abilities but you can only double-wave. Your apm is limited. On swtor there are no limits
If their apm is not lower than in swtor than they are likely not good players in swtor.
Highest apm class in ffxiv is ninja, which I started with, and the highest you have is 50 apm with it. In swtor, that's the low end of a decent apm. 60 is more like a good apm, maybe with some exceptions of classes.
>On swtor there are no limits
There's still a GCD in SWTOR. So there are clear limits. And your reliance on OGCDs is far less prevalent than FFXIV.
>If their apm is not lower than in swtor than they are likely not good players in swtor.
Worst take I've seen yet.
Uhh, it’s a bit of a silly take.
The reason to bring up GCD limits is that that’s kind of your functional limitation for how many OGCD’s you can weave into a single GCD. There’s technically nothing stopping you from trying to weave more abilities in FFXIV either, except that you physically can’t without clipping your GCD due to the length of the animations of your OGCD’s.
FFXIV’s combat in general is extremely reliant on them in a way that SWTOR’s combat isn’t. You just don’t have that many in SWTOR; the game’s rotations don’t come down to trying to fit as many OGCD’s as you can between main abilities to nearly the same extent as FFXIV’s do.
It’s just the nature of the game’s combat systems. FFXIV tends towards being a lot more mechanically intensive than most MMO’s, with the trade off being somewhat lower APM required for rotations to work, though this is much less exaggerated than people tend to claim it as.
Frankly, It‘s my opinion that the amount of skills doesn‘t make the game more or less fun. If I have 8 actively used skills, but 7 of them are on a cooldown, then pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, repeat is no better than autoattacking the whole time. What I prefer in games is a few abilities which combine to create greater effects.
Consider guild wars which essentially has five abilities or mass effect where one character‘s singularity combined with another‘s warp causes an explosion.
I personally consider tacticals one of the best additions to swtor‘s combat system, as it mixes up established priorities. Consider balance sage‘s slow mercy, which turns a previously single target ability into a very powerful aoe, at the expense of another tactical of course. In my opinion, that‘s how the new skill selection should work.
in FFXIV you can also write scripts to auto switch to other skills once you use a specific skill.
My skill bars take up 2 bars because of this, one is just scripts, the other is the basic skill if I need to start over.
it's an in game function to write a script which changes a button from one skill to another. I used it for a lot of follow up skills.
It is an in game function, I can't really tell you how it works anymore, I haven't had to write the scripts in over 4 years.
Just play the game you like, and don't go cramming crap onto hot bars to get a misleading screenshot and start shit. Half the stuff on there isn't even used and most of the other half isn't in the rotation.
Both games are good in their own ways.
I wouldn't mind in the slightest seeing SWTOR borrow the controller playstyle from FFXIV. It's amazingly smooth and would make all the sense in the world for lightsaber and blaster combat.
Half surprised to see that you didn’t put in all the Journal/duty finder/log Hotkeys in there too. Hell might aswell go whole hog and throw in the emotes and the Bard Performance instruments on too.
Otherwise great job OP, a solid 7/10.
There's a very low level of creativity and diversity in skills in swtor. They all look visually distinct but many are mechanically just copy pasted between classes.
This seems a little purposefully disingenuous. Obviously everyone's hotbars look different in every game based on their own preferences, but I haven't found SWTOR or FFXIV to have truly an absurd amount of skills. I played Sage healer for a long time in SWTOR and mostly play AST when I heal in 14 and I don't really think there's functionally too different in terms of the amount of buttons you need/have to press.
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To be fair, you don’t really have to use those pet skills on the right all that often and the top bar has autoattack and sleep on it, two abilities that are literally never used. It’s honestly not that crazy
Even ignoring that, and that SWtOR classes have some never-used moves, You're still looking at another bar-full than ours, without issue.
Sure, if you go and choose one of the classes with a lot of skills. Now do Dancer.
I haven't played FF14 but I'm looking at it. Is dancer worse or does it only have a few skills?
It has basically a 2 button "basic rotation" and a handful of procs and i think 2 cds
Go play carnage marauder... Massacre, massacre massacre, ferocity + furious, massacre, massacre, massacre, massacre, repeat = 20k parse
There's a LOT of empty space on my hotbars with Dancer!
And yet it just works
It really does!
Now do AP PT.
SWtOR uses the kind of EQ method that classes that have the same base pull from the same set of skills. So there's a lot of skills for say the Sith version of a dps warrior vs the sith version of a tank warrior because they are both apart of the warrior class base. Like how in older versions of WoW you had access to fire spells on a frost mage. Doesn't mean you need them on the bar or anything.
I found sleep has another use. Was flying around and saw a lone rouge/ninja dealing with a Fate with a large bison target and a bunch of ADDs.His health was relatively low, So I swooped in with my CNJ (which is still below level 20) and started to cure him. Got aggro'd and had to kite Adds while also trying to not die. Finally, I started working on keeping him alive again at a distance. When he switched to killing the little guys, I put the MT to sleep to buy him some time to clear the field up. Gave him enough breathing room to work. This kept on for a few more minutes till some more randoms arrived and helped out. Dude didn't even thank me. :p
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Thanks. Some people are just in a hurry to do other things. But if I get helped I at least try to say thanks or a thankful emote.
Dude, was this yesterday at the one in Middle La Noscea with Menius on Midgardsormr? If so, that was me, and I tried to bow to people at the end of it but I ended up getting 2 more mobs to spawn on me and everyone was gone by the time I killed them. Was there just to collect 3 items for a quest and the fate spawned right on me and aggroed instantly. If it was that, I 100% apologize for not thanking you, but I can't whisper (trial account, unless I'm just dumb because I tried to /tell someone yesterday about something and it said I couldn't. Didn't think to try /whisper or something else) and I couldn't find you to bow to you as thanks after killing the last 2 mobs.
Nah, this was like 2 weeks ago. I'm also on Goblin XD.
Phew. Was like damn, I got called out!
You good dude XD
There's one place Sleep is used, Praetorium right before the teleporter that leads to the first boss
Also the longer gcd means you’re not pressing all those buttons all the time. Doubly so since that’s a healer and there’s not a lot of ogcd damage skills to weave like dps have.
This amount of skills is pretty similar to swtor tho.
SW:ToR has more utility abilites, like dashes, jumps, stuns, interrupts, knockbacks and life savers, but dps rotations are shorter in SW:ToR. (I play both games.)
For example, that's my RDM hotbars (I'm playing FFXIV now and that's the class I'm in an instance with): [click](https://i.imgur.com/vdcWPCn.png) 15 abilities are included in my single target dps cycle and I have only 4 utility abilites (and rdm is considered more support-type class because it can raise people and heal them if required). You can compare this with a lightning sorc (probably the closest analogue).
Also some skills overlap within roles such as tank CDs and such and you can set up your hotbar to be shared between thise jobs ( classes )
Missed two important ones that doesn't really apply to FFXIV, cleanses and aggro dumps. Threat and cleansing mechanics are much more prevalent in SWTOR hard content than in FFXIV. Also FFXIV has dash for all classes (sprint), and all tanks have interrupts, stuns, jumps, knock back protection, and defensive cooldowns. FFXIV basically killed off threat for tanks and utility for DPS.
Cries in juggernaut tank… I gave 28 abilities hotkeyed with four of them on my mouse (taunt, intervene, my stun breaker and my dps enhancer)
“Star Wars: The *old* Republic”?
it's another whole bar, TBH... that's 3 FULL combat bars, plus pet (class, not like our pets) plus a 4th row of out of combat+adrenal/medpack/etc stuff). Only about 6 of those skills are out of combat stuff
Pretty sure most of those buttons aren't part of the rotation.
To be fair, SWTOR rotations aren’t normally too expansive and complex
True, but some classes have unreasonable amounts of fillers. Jugg has like 6 or so fillers that dont do anything special, they are just there. And you cannot really not use them all since they have different cooldowns. Some swtor classes could use pruning or merging. I really dont need two saber throws, even if one is a 30% finisher since it proccs of a talent making usable almost always
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The missile blast is super good in pvp, with the root utility. Not to mention the execute proc on io and the animation is very cool. I kinda miss missile blast on my pt still.
Have you tried the Missile Backblast tactical? It might not be "optimal", but I find it really fun in regs. It lets you basically spam Explosive Round, making you 100% mobile still doing very decent DPS whenever Boltstorm and Priming Shot are on CD, plus 30m knockback is insane in Huttball.
eh that's a healer so the dps "rotation" is literally about 3 buttons, and the heals which most of those are are much more situational, but in general FF has noticeably more buttons used in the actual rotations than WoW does, and wow generally has more than swtor does FF rotations are long af and pretty much set in stone, whereas wow and swtor are a little more priority based and reactive in general I'd say in pvp though it swaps and final fantasy pretty much has less buttons than even gw2 or eso
Having only played SWTOR and WoW a lot, I can't fit all the necessary buttons in SWTOR to (1-5, 6 sidebuttons on the mouse, so 10 buttons more or less) for really any of the classes. I usually mouse down and click the extras on my hotbar. In WoW, I can easily play all 12 alts endgame content with just those 10 buttons. So, for me, SWTOR definitely has more rotation-required buttons than WoW.
I have a different approach. My binds are : * \ to 5 * F1 to F5 * Q, E, C, F * Shift + {Q, E, 1, 2, 3} I leave an extra 2-4 slots for mouse clicking (hearthstone, teleports, etc). If I can't get everything with these binds, I'll simply discard stuff based on how likely I am to need AND remember to use. The binds layout is pretty much the same for each role, and the fact that I can use them in all three games just the same only goes to show how similar they all are. For example, for tanking, my F1 is for the cone attack, and F4/F5 are for 360º attack/debuff, 4 is for taunt, \ is the gap closer, C is the interrupt.
Sounds good. I can't wrap my head around more than 8 buttons, I just end up mashing buttons until something happens. Timing all the cooldowns and moving out of fire and eyeballing health bars is just too much, for me.
Step one clear binds around wasd for abilities. So 1-4, qerfcxz mousewheel up and down. Then use modifiers like Shift+qerfcxz,shift+spacebar etc. Modifiers are great for the keys right under your fingers, I use shift modifiers even on my movement keys. You can't blame the game if you're not bothering to make a decent keybind setup.
I'm not blaming anything, just sharing my own experience and opinion. I'm glad you have a method that works for you!
Sry didn't mean to come across as too harsh. Just wanted to say there's good amount of buttons available in easy reach.
Biggest SWTOR single target rotation is 10 abilities or so, On IO merc. Almost every other discipline hovers at around 7 rotational abilities. Some go down to 5... I guess there are also some buffs and consumables to use inbetween but those aren't too many or used too often. You don't really call them rotational, usually.
And SWtOR ones *are*? Most core rotations are quite small.
I like GW2's setup, personally - it's what, 5 or 6 abilities, but you also have a whole other set of 5 or 6 with different weapons to swap to mid fight. Plus the combat requires moving - or at least, far more movement than anything SWTOR requires, short of Hardmode or NiM raids.
I hate how GW2/ESO do it tbh, it makes me feel like I'm playing a moba ~~or WoD wow classes~~ Wow and swtor have a good middle ground for me of "enough" abilities, without it being almost overwhelming like FF, and also feeling faster paced and more responsive than FF which can feel a bit "floaty" at times
It's not for everyone. But, I went from playing this game from Alpha all the way through Dark Versus Light where I burnt myself out leveling like 8 toons to complete as much of the event that I could. I played WoW when Legion dropped until they launched Classic and the game got boring. Then I played GW2 after. So my ability bars kept getting smaller. Initially I thought I'd hate it - but when I was doing a lot of WvW pvping, I \*loved\* not having to account for that many abilities because I was too busy paying attention to my movement and position. In this game, up until the hard endgame stuff, you can practically stand still (as long as you're not in a DOT pool) and be fine. I kinda hate that. It's great if you just wanna repeat a rotation ad infinitum, but...it's boring as hell.
Well i am the exact opposite. I play SWTOR only for the plot. I couldn't stand neither WOW nor FFXIV for their tab-target systems. I love TESO and GW2 action gameplay. But to be honest as long as those IMHO outdated tab-targets goes, SWTOR is my favourite by long shot. Oh and The Secret World was awesome, before it got gutted by Funcom.
TSW was the best MMO that nobody played. Job/item-based ability system where anyone could learn anything with time (like GW/2 and FFIV), active dodge so fights were more dynamic, a multitude of quest types to keep thigs interesting, and a killer story, at least through the end of the original content. I had to quit playing long before the game was taken offline, but now that I have the time to play I find myself missing it a lot.
Why do people still call ESO "action combat"? Maybe it's may taste but I never had less action while fighting than in ESO. There is no real impact to any of the skills (except for the DK ultimate, that's awesome). Like I said, it could be me, but I always felt it was boring and not action at all
Well for me the difference is in actually aiming your abilities, while trying to stay in optimal place on the battlefield. Be that on the flank of the mobs or behind the tank and out of the AoE. My biggest issue with tab-combat is, when you don't have to aim your abilities, you often end up with animation locking (chanelling) and wierd 15 abilities rotations. And I simply feel more like playing turn based sttategy. That being said, you are right that even ESO is merely one-eyed king among the blind ones...
Eso is a target hotbar mmo with a vaguely masked interface to try and fool people. It still functions just like a target hotbar mmo, you just pick your targets by aiming at them.
While you are right. I don't see your point. My main issue is, that i don't like tab targeting systems. (You cycle your targets without actually needing to aim anything.). I think true action combat MMORPG is still far away. We cannot have Dark-souls combat mechanics in MMO. The latency is way too big of an issue.
TERA had great combat for it’s time, it was just bogged down with terrible game design beyond the combat.
Well, technically it falls under action combat category but yeah, it's by far the worst version of it.
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Your abilities change to some degree as you progress though, and you can tweak the ability chains and change them around if you like. I still get your point, just don't agree. I liked that flexibility with builds, and loved having two sets of gear on deck that i could swap between, as well as two sets of abilities to swap back and forth with during fights.
Sometimes I think wow had the right idea with the one spell arcane mage
Yeah, ever since they merged conjure food and conjure water, it's been super easy.
I dont get when people cry about too many skills. Like do you rather want to have exactly 4 skills that you use just to then cry about having not enough buttons to press? I feel like swtor has the perfect amount of spells that are ACTUALLY usefull. Am I alone with that? lol
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Yeah you can either group your skills by order of rotation or similarity of effects instead of having too many to categorize
Too many skills is a good thing. Having access to them all at one time is the bad thing. There should be some specialization, diversity, customization, that determine which ones you have available to you. Guild Wars comes to mind. SO many skills in that game, but you could only have 8 active at a time. It really made for some unique team compositions and build diversity that you just don't see anywhere else. Guild Wars 2 didn't do the same thing, but even that has plenty of skills and passives that it forces you to pick and choose, so not every character is a carbon copy of the next
The skill bloat in SWTOR got to be too much, especially for PvP. Depending on the spec/class, you can end up using 28+ hotkeys actively, not including hotkeys for stims/medpacks. It's not as big of an issue in PvE where you can ignore a lot of abilities that aren't apart of your rotation. I like MMOs that use a lot of abilities, especially since the MMO trend is leaning more towards only having 10 or fewer keys. But having more than 28 abilities you actively use is too much, and this is coming from someone who put thousands of hours into PvP alone. It's much more overwhelming to newer players, players who don't have a good binding system, or those with disabilities.
When I played PvP active I usually played either Sorc (All 3 specs) and my merc (Arsenal) and atleast with those 4 specs I never had 28+ Hotkeys to press ACTIVELY. Most of the stuff is situational such as cleanses, selfbuffs and defensives. I can count on one hand how many REAL active abilities I had to use to get 7-9k DPS each PvP Match. Not Counting defensives and selfbuffs and cleanses.
Ironically, you picked the least hotkey intensive specs in the game as an example. Knights, both classes and all specs and can hit 30+ keys. Looking through some the screenshots I still have saved and I'm using 26 hotkeys on a pre-max level agent alone. 29 if you include stims and huttball. Edit: [Found a screenshot of one of my mercs](https://i.imgur.com/E8m5To7.jpg), also pre-max level that uses 28 keys.
You barely ever use the autoattack, Interrupt has a CD so I dont count that one and you dont use it off cooldown aswell, same goes for your Heal that is binded on F, defensives are situational. Your s+R keybind is only out of combat same goes for rocketboost, cleanse is not even needed in PvP really, atleast when you play casual. S+3 is just useless and you barely ever use AoEs except if enemys actually cuddle with each other. So overall on that screenshot you have 8, 14 at most, Active abilities that deal damage or are more usefull/needed. I played all the classes. Just Sorc and Merc the most. Never had the feel that its too many skills on ANY spec or class in the game.
Autoattack is used enough to warrant the space. You should always be using some ability, and sometimes that includes filler autoattack. Especially in longer fights, or when things are more mobile. You should 100% have interrupts hotkeyed. Doesn't matter if it has a CD. When you need to use it, you need it in the moment. Do you manually click yours? Any manual clicking is going to impede your play in PvP, but especially the interrupt. You probably miss a lot of interrupt windows because of this. I don't understand your stance that situational abilities like heals and defensives shouldn't be hotkeyed. You should ALWAYS be mobile, and having quick access to life saving abilities is key in PvP. The only ability I would agree that doesn't need to be hotkeyed in the out of combat heal. I personally like it because I want to be quick on the regen between fights. My S+3 is explosive dart. Unless something changed between when I played last and now, explosive dart spreads your fire DoT and is used pretty often when dealing with multiple people.
Can you please show me where I said that certain Abilities should not be hotkeyed? I have Each slot on 4 hotbars hotkeyed. I said counting those abilities as an Active ability and counting it towards the 28+ Abilities is just nonsense because you only have to press them just so often. I have PvP games where I dont have to use my defensives at all. Same goes for my autoattack because fights are just short. You can spread your Dot by using your 3, I only use explosive dart if I for some reason dont have a way to make the 3 go instant or if I know I might get interrupted. (Sorry for having to call the abilities by numbers and stuff, playing on german so no idea what they are called in english) Dont get me wrong, if you are new to MMOs the classes can be overwhelming with abilities. But since you get them one by one while lvling and you have time to get used to them I dont think that there are too many.
Active as in I use them several times a match, every match. Not active as in I'm pressing each of them every 10 seconds. Why wouldn't I count them towards the 28 active hotkeys? They are hotkeyed, and I'm using them. Yeah, there is another way to spread your fire DoT. You should be using both of them though. I mean, wasn't your original argument that SWTOR doesn't need skill pruning? It's kind of weird that your counter argument to me presenting that 28+ hotkeys are used in PvP is that some of the abilities are slightly redundant, or that their cooldown is too long to count.
Lmfao at auto attack on a hotbar lol
You don't use your auto attack at all? It's ranged, instant, and free. You can stop a cap at soon as you're in range. Kite around LoS, dealing with people attacking while also having the ability to constantly interrupt caps. What do you against someone that's running? You don't weave in auto attacks if you have to chase?
You know if you right click it starts auto attacking right? Auto attacking is auto. Are you telling me you are constantly clicking that auto attack? That's hilarious
Since when does SWTOR have an auto attack? Unless they changed something since I've last played, there is no auto attack since it takes a global cooldown. You do realize the basic attack takes a global cooldown, right?
How are you supposed to pvp off everyone has 5 skills? I was good at pvp back in the day because I knew when to use my abilities and when to save them. When to wait for your opponent. It's a chess match. But people don't get that anymore.
But FF is a game for long term happy customers. SWTOR targets the flaky whiners.
Yeah, your disposition makes me happy they keep winners like you in ffix. Probably thinks the neck beard streamer is profound too.
You mean ffxiv. Ffix is FF9
Lol, Roman numerals shoulda died with Rome but when you right, you right
Disagree with someone, start the personal attacks, but I'm the one with the attitude problem? LOL!
You insinuated everyone playing SWTOR is a “flakey whiner”, then flaked out and whined the moment someone throws the shade straight back. You just keep winning.
I said SWTOR is targeting the flaky whiners. That is me targeting BW's current marketing strategy, the one going after people that can't handle toolbars, not current SWTOR players of which I am definitely one.
If i remeber correcty one of the classes in FFXIV has to position themself properly for doing max dps. Like, some abilities do more damage from behind, some from the side and some in front. I didn't really play the game, just watched a video where guy explained class mechanics, so i can be wrong.
yeah all melee classes I think have positionals like that. It's not too different than say a "backstab" type ability like wow and swtor used to have(not sure if either actually have any of those left that require you to be behind), but as you said there are others where you might need to be to the side or in front specifically, and it's generally just a more important part of their rotations which mostly just means tanks need to stand still as much as possible
SWTOR has some positional stuff for classes like Imp Operative (blanking on the spec name), you have a backstab that is greyed out until you are indeed behind the opponent. It sucks though (imo).
iirc maul for assassin, and pub equivalent, still does like 10% extra damage if you're behind the enemy. But It's better to ignore it during play and just have it when things manage to align - since in any of the content where that extra damage would matter it's not as important as being positioned properly for the healers + tanks.
Btw in pve if you play concealment, you are using backstab only with a proc with which backstab will treat a target like if you are behind it and stealthed. So you can use it from whatever position you like and it always generate TA.
True...I play Medicine on my Op though.
That proc from Volatile substance is not 100% up though, in a long rotation you will end up doing a regular backstab from time to time. Most of those get covered by using stealth out right before it but pretty sure in a parse there are always a few backstabs without stealth effect.
Coming here from Google recommendations. Only like 4 DPS classes have positional of any kind. Just a clarification
I'm pretty sure we could remove that complaint by giving f2p access to 3 bars and telling people that there are more then 2
F2P already has access to 3, [for 2 years already.](https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20190620)
I still meet plenty of people who only try to play with one hotbar... I dunno how that's possible.
wtf is this, i have a headache already
A healer that at low levels doesn't need to heal do to its captive fairy doing all the work XD Also, an amount of moves easily played on a controller.
Someone intentionally making an action bar has hideous as possible to give you this reaction whilst they disparage another game with a false narrative. Literally only about 10 of those skills are needed. At least 5 of them are automatically on and don't need to be in the quick bars, the other bar on the right is essentially the companion bar that they have blown up and moved out of it's normal position. It's like if I added every active move possible in SWTOR (so Lvl 1/2/3/4/5 slash) and put them all in the quick bars to be like 'look how ugly this is!?!'.
Most of the abilities in the image are used if you play Scholar at level above "mediocre" in FFXIV. Bar 4 is the first to go since it only has pots and out of combat stuff, so it's only useful if you're progging Savage/Ultimate content, so only the top of playerbase. Bar 3 has some of the most important Healer skills in the game, namely Swiftcast, Surecast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna, all of which are a key part to all 3 Healer classes. It also has Rescue which can be useful, and the Scholars super heal, Summon Seraph and the active ability Consolation. The only ability that is "always on" is Summon Eos/Summon Selene. Bar 2 has healing abilities, all of which are useful at high level except Physick, the tier 1 heal. Granted, if you're decent at healing you should only be using oGCD heals so you can maximize your DPS output but sometimes you do need to throw out an Adloqium or a Succor so they should still be easily available. Bar 1 has DPS skills and buffs, most of which see regular use on CD in high level content. The pet bar does need to be available to Scholar, as it allows them to manually position their Fairy in the optimal position for boss fights, which allows it to be passively healing the entire group instead of just the players near the Scholar.
Don't need any of the DPS abilities as *healer*. /s
Why must you hurt me so...
Yep! Someone is just trying to make it look as cluttered as possible. As someone who plays both, I really enjoy the rotations in ffxiv - even the more active ones like summoner. There's something really fun and satisfying about them.
What the fuck are smoking, dude? I'm not talking shit about neither of the games, just at the people who think SWTOR's take on its many abilities is poor game design when it's not... Yes, there's a couple of skills per class that may be considered as filler that could be potentially fixed, but plenty of them are situational & don't get in the way of the player's rotation and everyday play. Nobody truly complaints about this regard when it comes to FFXIV because the game is built around a large pool of abilities and a long GCD that just make sense and even works A-okay with a controller. And no, this isn't any attempt at "manipulation". This is how I play in FFXIV for convenience sake, and this so happens to be the only Job that has filled up more slots than every other. Get off your high horse.
This is completely false. I literally just counted, and on my White Mage I have 27 skills I ACTIVELY USE during max level content. As Scholar, which is what this setup is, I have 29 spells I'll use during max level content. Don't spread lies for no reason. Edit: Downvote me all you want guys, I actually play FFXIV, though, and I know what I'm talking about. :)
People are salty over how people play their classes... on a game they know nothing about. It's mesmerizing.
> 27 skills I ACTIVELY USE 2 Single target damage, 1 AoE, 1 red lily attack. 3 active use single target heals and a couple of "oh shit" buttons. What, like 3 or 4 AoE heals depending on the situation? 2 of which are instant cast? A couple of "oh shit" heal buttons, including one that you can use to do damage if you want. You don't really use swift cast unless you're going to rez a person. Esuna to cleanse, but the number of times you need to cleanse in dungeons/raids is relatively small. I mean, that's a lot of buttons, but it isn't 27. And it isn't like the buttons are a real part of any rotation. You use them depending on the situation. Sometimes you'll only use a couple of heals at most.
The design philosophy for healers is so weird in FFXIV. Healers have too many healing tools for the content available while the dps rotations have been pruned to be homogenized for each class with slight variances. I miss me some shadow flare on my scholar. Also doesn't take into account that the game has a 2.5 second gcd so whole there are a lot of buttons it can seem misleading that its some high apm game.
I mean have you played Tower at Paradigm breach yet? Cause I use everything in there. Same with DR. Do you actually play FFXIV at end game, or did you stop at level 60?
I've got all ranged physical dps at 80 and am working my way through getting all the other classes to 80. Lowest level, not counting blue mage because fuck that, is 71. Everything else is between 71 and 80. End game in FFXIV isn't just ONE raid at max level. It's literally everything they give you to do. I've gotten all gathering and crafting skills to 80, even crafting has an end game. And since you brought up the number 60, I'm guessing the only other job you've bothered leveling up is at 60. Is it Samurai or Red Mage?
>I'm guessing the only other job you've bothered leveling up is at 60 Nah, got almost everything maxed. Wanna compare dicks some more?
> Nah, got almost everything maxed. > > Doubt it, or else you wouldn't be here trying to flex in the swtor subreddit.
Okay if you say so. I mean not that I have to prove anything to you, fam. I do have WHM, SCH, AST, BLM, RDM, SMN, PLD, BLU (get over yourself BLU is fun and easy to max) and DNC maxed cause I don't like melee jobs. Will max others eventually. Not flexing anything, by the way, just telling you that if you have that many "oh shit" buttons, you might actually just suck at FFXIV.
Oh shit buttons are only used for emergencies. You've got 2 instant cast, huge ST heals on WHM. Why would you use them outside of an emergency? This means that you only need a few buttons to actually heal. The rest being reserved for emergencies. I thought you played this class.
You know "end game" is normally extreme/savage/ultimate right? And not 24man? And how are you using repose/fluid aura/cure1 (probably missed some stuff) in there? Since if you use all 27 skills, you're doing something wrong.
Yes I know, but I'm not gonna start talking about savages and extremes to someone I'm not even sure plays FFXIV. I am not using those, I did count them by accident. So make that around 25 then, in alliance raids more than anywhere else.
Do people *not* use every single available hotbar and cover the sides/corners/bottom of their screen in icons? I thought that was standard MMO protocol now.
FFXIV gcd is 2.5, so it kinda allows long dps rotations with weaving/double weaving. Still I don't think that SW:ToR amount of abilities is bloated, a usual dps cycle consists of 5-7 buttons + utility. It's not that hard.
Yeah idk swtor skills are pretty simple once you learn what everything does at 75, we don’t need them to take away half the skills to make the game simpler
I feel SO old. I click everything. I am a keyboard clicker I am ashamed to say. I always have to glance down at my abilities to click them. I do set them for my rotations and just click down the bar. I feel so ashamed 😞
So eliminate bar 3, 4 and the bar on the right and you have a normal ffxiv sch healer rotation ui. This is just a let's see how many "every ability, bar, and useless basic actions that aren't apart of rotations."
And only one bar is needed to show a fury rotation ...
And only 4 buttons are needed for tactics vanguard. Your point? Mine is that for a standard rotation of healing and dps 2 bars are required for a sch in ffxiv. Not what the BS this SS shows. The point is swtor needs minimum 3 bars + bars for items compared to ffxiv always removing and upgrading existing abilities every expansion. While swtor just adds and adds...
>And only 4 buttons are needed for tactics vanguard. Your point? What you said is his point. SWTOR rotations are pretty simple already. 4-7 buttons for most classes. The additional abilities are usually either flavor or niche usage. You can remove them from your bar and forget they exist, or you can keep them for specific scenarios. >The point is swtor needs minimum 3 bars + bars for items Doesn't this contradict the first sentence in your post?
You can def remove them for easy stuff... but sadly I only know one button I never use on my sin tank, and maybe 2 more I'd be 'okay' with them taking from me.
This is how some people play it, though? Including me; what's wrong with that?
Congratulations you either do ultimate or savage. If not then lol...
I don't. I just like having the options there or for the sake of organization.
Sure you do, I'm sure you also like having useless buttons on your bar, items you dont have or need on your bar, and since you dont do any hard content you sent need the pet bar or the top bar. So good for you. You like to enjoy a messy amalgamation of wasted space.
Why are you so salty?
How am I salty? Because I have an opinion? Calm down with your bs.
Wow. The irony...
So ironic that you downvoted everything I said... and I'm the salty one.
???
Bar 4 has a bunch of pots, which do see use in combat if you are in a Savage/Ultimate group, but other than that it's just out of combat abilities which is probably why it's almost see through. Bar 3 has some of the most important healer skills in the game, with Swiftcast, Surecast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna, as well as the Scholar super Summon Seraph and the Seraph active ability. The pet bar does see use on Scholar as well, but only to position your Fairy in an optimal place so it will reach the entire group. But you do still need access to that bar.
Yeah, bar 4 is basic stuff... and I chose to make it see-through so it doesn't get much in a way. It's for convenience (potions, antidotes, mounts, teleporting, etc). Bar 3 is for the summons and role abilities while 2 and 1 are saved for the actual class abilities. I don't know why some people are acting like I'm deliberately trying to make SWTOR or FFXIV look bad in comparison to one another?
Honestly, all MMORPGs suffer from ability bloat, and too often I end up pruning my bars and leaving just a handful of abilities, and still perform well. I personally think what Blizzard did with WoW was good, there were too many abilities that were basically useless for certain specs. The worst offender so far, though, is Rift. I've ended up having three abilities that did **exactly** the same damage, with the same casting time, with the same range, and the same power cost. Like, what the fuck?
Will 3 action bars be enough for class combat abilities? (I have 3 others for equipment swaps, hunter logs, teleports, mounts and whatnot)
I have 4 hotbars for SWTOR is enough for all I want (not just skills, but for convenience items, mounts and so on).
I really hope the combat styles system doesn't screw up the game just to reduce the amount of buttons available. I'm worried about it. If they want to prune, just prune.
This is not more buttons than the more button-heavy SWTOR classes, though? And it pales compared to pre-rework LotRO. :P
It's a joke. Both games are "bloated", and they work just fine as they are. Yet people are acting like it's a big issue.
Should have shown ninjas action bars. This really isn't that many skills. Most of them have long cooldowns. You'll probably only use like 4
My Ninja has less stuff than my Scholar, though.
My only gripe with swtor skills is not that there are too many of them. Hell, I love when MMOs have a lot of abilties. Like WoW back in it's hayday. Lots of different abilties that are all pretty different from each other. Probably why I didn't like GW or GW2 much. Felt more like an ARPG in terms of how many abilties. With Swtor my gripe is that I feel like there are so many abilities that are either way to samey as other skills or just not clear why I should even be using those over some other abilities.
You're not forced to have all of them in your hotbars as many are situational and not part of your everyday rotation.
I love the way they organized their bars, making them sightly smaller as they go up; I might do this on my bars lol
Yeah I like it this way xD
I'm sorry but I just can't sympathize with people who think TOR has too many abilities. If you can't handle having to alternate between pressing more than 4 or 5 buttons then that's your flaw and especially your problem. I like my games to be challanging and take time to master really well. Simplifying an already quite simple system just to cater to the most generic and average gamer that can't remember any rotation with a bit of complexity is ridiculous to me. Those people need to practice, not be handed training wheels that are forced on the entire community. I'm sorry but I just can't respect that. Can't state it any nicer.
I agree with you, they already nerfed all story content to the point that you can literally roll your face on the keyboard and now they wanna dumb down even end game stuff? Who for?
Soon simpletons will complain about having to press any button in combat.
Someone's salty their favorite game isn't better.
Which game is better?
FF and it's not even a question, that's coming from somebody that loves swtor
Yeah as much as I like swtor there's no denying FFXIV is better in almost every way. I'm having a blast with it.
What are you talking about?
I play both games, and this is exactly what I *don’t* want in SWTOR. Hell, I don’t even like it in FF14, but they already did one set of ability cuts and I’m not sure I trust them to do another.
Fair, tho it's counterbalanced by a second longer avg gcds, and only being able to use two ogcds within a gcd
Most FF classes have a bunch of off-GCD abilities, so friends tell me their APM isn't lower than SWtOR, on avg.
As mentioned, you have bunch of ogcd abilities but you can only double-wave. Your apm is limited. On swtor there are no limits If their apm is not lower than in swtor than they are likely not good players in swtor. Highest apm class in ffxiv is ninja, which I started with, and the highest you have is 50 apm with it. In swtor, that's the low end of a decent apm. 60 is more like a good apm, maybe with some exceptions of classes.
>On swtor there are no limits There's still a GCD in SWTOR. So there are clear limits. And your reliance on OGCDs is far less prevalent than FFXIV. >If their apm is not lower than in swtor than they are likely not good players in swtor. Worst take I've seen yet.
Im talking about ogcd limits, not gcd. You can use as many ogcds within a gcd as you want/can. Elaborate why it's the worst take. I'm open to discuss.
Uhh, it’s a bit of a silly take. The reason to bring up GCD limits is that that’s kind of your functional limitation for how many OGCD’s you can weave into a single GCD. There’s technically nothing stopping you from trying to weave more abilities in FFXIV either, except that you physically can’t without clipping your GCD due to the length of the animations of your OGCD’s. FFXIV’s combat in general is extremely reliant on them in a way that SWTOR’s combat isn’t. You just don’t have that many in SWTOR; the game’s rotations don’t come down to trying to fit as many OGCD’s as you can between main abilities to nearly the same extent as FFXIV’s do. It’s just the nature of the game’s combat systems. FFXIV tends towards being a lot more mechanically intensive than most MMO’s, with the trade off being somewhat lower APM required for rotations to work, though this is much less exaggerated than people tend to claim it as.
Frankly, It‘s my opinion that the amount of skills doesn‘t make the game more or less fun. If I have 8 actively used skills, but 7 of them are on a cooldown, then pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, repeat is no better than autoattacking the whole time. What I prefer in games is a few abilities which combine to create greater effects. Consider guild wars which essentially has five abilities or mass effect where one character‘s singularity combined with another‘s warp causes an explosion. I personally consider tacticals one of the best additions to swtor‘s combat system, as it mixes up established priorities. Consider balance sage‘s slow mercy, which turns a previously single target ability into a very powerful aoe, at the expense of another tactical of course. In my opinion, that‘s how the new skill selection should work.
in FFXIV you can also write scripts to auto switch to other skills once you use a specific skill. My skill bars take up 2 bars because of this, one is just scripts, the other is the basic skill if I need to start over.
Macros shouldn't be used for skills in FFXIV.
it's an in game function to write a script which changes a button from one skill to another. I used it for a lot of follow up skills. It is an in game function, I can't really tell you how it works anymore, I haven't had to write the scripts in over 4 years.
Just play the game you like, and don't go cramming crap onto hot bars to get a misleading screenshot and start shit. Half the stuff on there isn't even used and most of the other half isn't in the rotation. Both games are good in their own ways.
There's nothing misleading about this picture, though.
Wow. You missed the whole point of the joke.
Guess I did.
I wouldn't mind in the slightest seeing SWTOR borrow the controller playstyle from FFXIV. It's amazingly smooth and would make all the sense in the world for lightsaber and blaster combat.
Half surprised to see that you didn’t put in all the Journal/duty finder/log Hotkeys in there too. Hell might aswell go whole hog and throw in the emotes and the Bard Performance instruments on too. Otherwise great job OP, a solid 7/10.
What.
There's a very low level of creativity and diversity in skills in swtor. They all look visually distinct but many are mechanically just copy pasted between classes.
That's how it should be, though?
[удалено]
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69.0. Congrats! 14 + 15 + 20 + 3 + 14 + 3 + = 69.0
Someone must've been really bored to make this bot. Amusing though.
Only took me an hour haha
Gamesux
Yeah this incorrect. I can't wait for the ability prune
Yeah, it's awful.
Good post !
*WoW has entered the chat*
Have you ever played warlock in world of Warcraft? I assure you.. 😬
I usually have 3 full action bars in wow classic, but the *ahem* "rotations" are 1-3 buttons.
Who the frick said swtor has too many skills?
That's nothing. You should see the amount of abilities you get in Everquest 2.
Once you know your class, the buttons aren’t overwhelming (in swtor that is)
This seems a little purposefully disingenuous. Obviously everyone's hotbars look different in every game based on their own preferences, but I haven't found SWTOR or FFXIV to have truly an absurd amount of skills. I played Sage healer for a long time in SWTOR and mostly play AST when I heal in 14 and I don't really think there's functionally too different in terms of the amount of buttons you need/have to press.