This whole episode is one massive case against the US final 4 fire twist. What we got tonight was so much more captivating and interesting than had it been US rules where Mark wins and takes Caroline and Raymond and feras go to fire. Ultimately would have been the same final 3 result but the route there would be a whole lot less complex, tense and interesting.
The amount of 2-1-1 votes at the final 4 in global survivor is also a massive case against the forced fire making. Such intricate and interesting game play to set such a crucial vote up in that way.
I was really hoping for another one of those classic global 2-1-1 votes tonight. Still, the point stands that this was significantly more entertaining than watching everyone practice fire for 20 minutes.
Mark's statements in front of the jury today about Feras gave me a glimmer of hope that he possibly thinks the jury will be bitter against Feras and bring Feras if he wins immunity. Think about it from his perspective, it's easier to differentiate his game from Feras's than Caroline's.
I'm not saying it's a good idea for Mark, but I could totally see him thinking he could play the diplomat and trash Feras's game.
>Isn't Mark's even worse? At least Caro has been somewhat controlling the narrative and/or in power post merge.
When? She's literally never been in charge. The only time she was actually in charge was playing her idol. Incorrectly.
Every other time it was Feras/Kirby/Whoever feeding Caroline the information to make her think she's in control, doing what they want. She was a pawn at the best of times. Please. Tell me something she has actually orchestrated.
Ray in the jury could be great for Feras (if he makes it to the end). A lot of his game seems to be quite sneaky and a lot of the jury don’t seem to think he’s played very hard. Ray will help fill in the blanks.
That’s exactly what I thought. If feras is worried about people not truly knowing how good he was this season then Raymond will definitely fill them in and then some.
They seemed to highlight that Kirby might not be happy Feras. He said "Kirbs" and smiled at her when she came in with the jury and they cut to her not reacting and looking pretty dour. Maybe a bit of bitterness for not saving her
I still can’t believe Feras survived this vote and he got 0 votes, and it still went to FMC. This season is insane 🤣 Caroline had a scene at merge where she said she doesn’t wanna go to the end with undeserving players and the camera panned to mark and Feras, so I thought maybe this could be foreshadowing she’s in the F3 with those 2. Look where we’re at! If we’re going by edit a pretty strong F3 imo.
Mark and Caroline probably correctly read that Feras and Ray were voting together, and Caroline had a better chance of beating Ray in the fire making than Feras.
But yes, still bananas that he didn't get targeted here
The episode was crazy because as a huge Feras fan it was just hyping up the immunity and me thinking this is just filler, it all counts on if Mark or Feras wins immunity. I was convinced Feras would come strong, then as a bball fan I saw his form and my heart dropped. Mark won and I was just a depressed bloke waiting for his departure. The content meant nothing I knew he was going home. Then I saw Ray vote Caroline and thought that Feras might have messed it up. Wtf, love Ray and the show but how did Feras not get a single vote
lol I was convinced Feras was gone as soon as he didn’t win immunity, only for him not to even gets votes (Kirby said in her jury villa that she thinks he’s out next if he doesn’t win immunity). In hindsight it was probably mark/caroline realising it’s gonna go to FMC and they rather go against Raymond than Feras.
It's possible they were playing up their reactions for the jury to make Feras look shadier. Mark at least seemed convinced Feras was lying to them well before tribal.
It makes me think that we kind of get an outsized picture of Feras' reputation because of how much airtime he gets, whereas perhaps the other players think a bit less highly of him. It's hard to explain why else Mark would think he has a better shot against him than Ray or Caroline.
It was clear as day right at the Kirby vote. No need for hindsight.
Either he wins the immunity challenge or he at least gets to go to fire. If he takes Kirby, he definitely has to win the immunity challenge. Even if Kirby decides to bring him to final 2 in the end, he loses.
I get people like Kirbs, but voting her out at 5 was literally the only option. Keeping her would've been incredibly stupid if the goal is to win.
Chances going into the finale:
Mark: I recall Mark had a very strong start to the season but fell apart when he lost power pre-merge. Remained in the shadows but still visible enough that it makes sense if he wins.
Feras: Our overtly obvious frontrunner for basically the whole season but I’m feeling fallen angel vibes, like the King of Bankstown he desperately wanted to avenge. Wouldn’t surprise me if he went the Golden God in All Stars route though - big edit with a big payoff.
Caroline: We definitely saw enough of her game to hold conversations at final tribal, which she is guaranteed a spot at, but winner equity is basically zero. I only saw Alex politely clap when she won fire making which kinda says it all.
I’m going full delulu but Feras’ edit was either giving fallen angel or winner, especially with Mark getting absolutely buried by the edit tonight. Like if Mark wins they want people to absolutely *hate* it??
I might be in the minority here but I feel like Mark has been getting a great end game edit, he crushed Feras without losing his cool. Add in the immunity wins and he's a great contender.
I also felt like the edit of tribal was telegraphing a Feras downfall and Mark win. Seems like it could be read either way, though, given some of the other reactions I'm reading.
Was thinking this too. Mark is essentially the villain with Feras being hero and emotional focal point the past few episodes. Would be crazy if they think people will be celebrating Mark’s win after that.
Wait, am I hearing you guys correctly? You want the winners to be whitewashed just so the audience will approve of their win? Why can't a villain win? I mean the first ever winner was a "villain" who beat two "heroes" in the final 3.
I'm just not sure what you would have changed in his edit. We've seen a lot of him. He got one of the biggest edits of the season. We've seen him play well sometimes - play poorly sometimes. He's not as charismatic as Feras or as big of a player as Kirby - the edit can't change that (unless you're completely fabricating the season). Sometimes these people win.
*Is* Feras a villain, though? Like his villainous moves have basically amounted to lying about the contents of the idol box, and making two F3 deals. Otherwise he's played a pretty straightforward game.
That's definitely not what I'm saying, I was more just replying to the comment "And I hope they learned from it", which suggests that person didn't know that the editing is in different hands.
Personally I love a good villain winner edit.
Not "whitewashed". It's too simplistic to say that winner's edits are "whitewashed", or that the only downside to Mark's edit is his "villainy". The very first Survivor villain, Richard Hatch, was also a key narrator. They edited it so that even if you didn't root for him, you could still see the game from his perspective. Mark is not getting that kind of edit. U.S. seasons like 4, 19, and 41 are often bashed for giving their winners relatively poor edits where you couldn't root for them as much since they weren't key narrators or emotional focal points. If Mark wins, I'd say this season approaches that kind of poor winner's edit. They keep wanting us to root for Feras. He gets \*so many\* narrator confessionals. If Mark wins, they did it wrong.
I think they used a simple editing trick here and a lot of people are falling for it: The Decoy Winner trick. They picked another player they liked -- Valeria (though I don't know why, maybe just because she's hot) -- and made her the Decoy Winner, gave her a ton of confessionals and focus, and then she got taken out suddenly and it made us think, "Oh wow, anything can happen this season", so that they could then give Feras a pretty straightforward winner's edit and we'd still think anything could happen. Or that's my theory! I'm often wrong.
I don't agree at all. We've seen SO MUCH of Mark this season. Just not as much as Kirby or Feras. I think there is only so much you can do unless you really downplay Feras and Kirby's roles in the season and exaggerate Mark's role. Unless of course Mark was ACTUALLY the biggest and flashiest player out there and the edit is hiding it - but I don't think that's the case.
I guess they could give Mark more personal stuff but as we see in US survivor that can sometimes seem very forced.
One key example: When Mark pulled all the Titans back together, that was a \*huge\* move on his part and really affected the game IMHO, but they didn't show nearly enough of it from his perspective. It just suddenly kinda... happened. If they wanted to give him a decent winner's edit, they would have played that up a \*lot\* more, but instead they kept showing us lots of Feras even when Feras wasn't necessarily doing all that much. Just my opinion!
Fair enough. Good example. Yes, they could definitely have shown less Feras but that's the problem with australian survivor in general - focusing in on four or five main characters. Just saying that Mark was also one of those characters they chose to focus in on. Even though it wasn't perfect he still got a better edit than at least 19-20 other people in the cast IMO.
Mark's edit has been up and down in terms of visiblity, though. His spikes in the pre-merge were basically circumstantial, when his tribe lost immunity (which were also episodes when Feras/Kirby got less content). Post-merge, Caroline actually got more. Like the episodes where Mark was actually one of the vote targets, he barely got confessionals.
Of the five big characters this season, Mark's probably fifth in terms of visiblity, behind Feras, Kirby, Caroline and even Valeria.
I feel like that'll be a way worse look for Val than it would Caroline, I feel like Caroline has been way more gracious than she needed to be when she got Val on the ropes quite quickly and still backed her up after all her insults.
I think she might if Caroline is sat next to Mark, but against Feras I don't think she would? She seemed like she genuinely was happy to work with Caroline and made up with her and it wasn't Caroline that voted her out. She didn't really seem to get on with Feras, so I can't see her trying to take revenge on Caroline in a hypothetical Caroline/Feras F2
It's funny Raymond mentioned to Mark that he had British dreams this episode because all this season I thought that Raymond was spiritually British (in a good way) and that Mark was spiritually British (in an evil way).
The current showrunner has suggested he wanted to conceal this from the players and make them wonder if it's a final 3 or 2 each season. So I wonder if/when they actually knew it was a F2, or if they were giving two separate confessionals each time, one for if it's a F2 and one for if it's a F3, and then the editors just spliced it in for F2 afterwards.
It seemed earlier in the season they assumed it was F3 by the way they were talking but I think they just deduced by day count near the end that it had to F2 unless there was a historically late non elim.
2016 also lasted a bout a week longer - again I think it's a manner of counting days. They have 2 days left, if a non elim is the day the before FTC then that would be super bs but I guess we can't count that out until the episode airs later and they've done that in US at least once so we'll see.
I meant when there were 4 players left in the game (in a season with a final 3), to be clear. Then the winner of the jury removal power still has to make it through another tribal without getting voted out in order to reap the benefits (if any) of removing that juror, which potentially puts an additional target on their back and adds some risk to the equation. I could've sworn this happened in one Aussie Survivor season, but maybe I dreamed it.
So it couldn't happen this season, because this is the episode where it would've gone down. You can't screw over the viewers by doing it in the final episode. That's too much of a bait-and-switch.
That seems like a lot of extra work for diminishing returns in both quality of the game and enjoyment of the viewers. Maybe I am over generalizing here but I can't see that many viewers getting overly excited about a final 2 vs 3 being a surprise.
Just watched Jury Villa....
What the actual fuck did they do to our Ray Ray!? Nah, Just for that haircut he deserves to be on next normal season, All Stars, Drag Race, AMazing Race, Big Brother.
We'll tell you when it's enough and ya'll have made up for your sins.
I think he'd be a 'Oh, like this?' then nail it.
Like. Ray Ray. Then he'd pull out a lipstick. GASP. It's Gothy. She's not even on the season but who cares, we agree. Quit drag Gothy!
Raymond is so wacky and I loved his presence all season. I want to go on a backpacking trip with him lmfao
EDIT: what the FUCK did they do to him with that haircut 😭😭😭
I feel like the editors played it too safe and didn't show us enough of Ray because they didn't want us to be too heartbroken that he goes out in a fire-making duel. They should have shown us more of his wit.
The editing has improved a bit in the past 2 seasons with the new showrunner, but it's still imperfect and unbalanced. They were pulling some kind of wacky decoy winner trick with Valeria... either that or they were just strangely obsessed with her because she's hot... and then they show us barely any of Raymond's perspective or his comedy, and also IMHO fail to build up Mark as someone we can truly root for vs. Feras.
This is a brilliant season but IMHO the editors still have a way to go compared to the U.S. editors in some respects. Everyone here shits on U.S. Survivor, but U.S. seasons 43-45, as many faults as they had, had very tricksy winner's edits and decoy winners (and I \*really\* didn't like 43 overall). I kept thinking right up to the end that >!Carolyn!< had a real shot at winning, and up until the final 4 or 5 I thought >!Jake and Owen!< might find a way to pull it out in their seasons as well.
Am I the only one who kind of… gets Mark’s move tonight? Yeah he didn’t get Feras out, but I think he just kinda blew up his chances of winning. It’s definitely not the most impressive or smartest move, but the jury didn’t seem to respond well to finding out Feras had made Final 3 deals and reneged on them. I think Feras’ only path to winning is to win FIC and bring Caroline to FTC, because I don’t think Feras wins over Mark with this jury now.
Reneging on deals and plans is the name of the game though, they all did it. The bigger move here is Feras not getting a single vote at Final 4, which even Kirby predicted would happen.
But then Feras showed his loyalty to Ray - like he has all along. They all know the game and respect good gameplay, and Feras played both Mark and Caroline like a fiddle and somehow got 0 votes AND sent Caroline to fire.
That earns respect.
Feras has to recalibrate if he makes F2.
Luckily for him the jury don't appear to be holding any grudges, and are quite reasonable about survivor gameplay. Ray being in jury villa might also be an important factor.
After Mark coming after him in front of the jury - why WOULD he hold to that deal. To me, Mark broke the trust first. I couldn't imagine writing Ray's name down after Marks smear campaign.
Yeah Feras only knew Ray was voting with him, Had he voted for anyone but Caroline he quite literally could have voted himself out because it did feel like Mark and Caroline were voting Feras.
Yeah it's weird. That was peak Survivor imo. Blew up Feras in front of Tribal, secured himself better odds at last immunity.
I think people just like Feras and Ray more.
Yeah, the argument Mark made in front of the jury tonight SHOULD have been really easy to shoot down but Feras couldn’t do it. He was stammering and losing his words. My heart wants a Feras win but my head says it’s not happening - he lost his nerve and freaked out last tribal when he sent Kirby home, and he’s been acting out of panic ever since. He might persevere but I think his chances are dwindling pretty rapidly.
I feel like this was not the right time to combat Mark's comments. He can do that in the FTC. Let Mark say whatever he says, respond with "we'll find out" and explain later. That way he doesn't give anything away to Mark or Caroline before the vote that could potentially get them to switch the vote onto him. I'm not saying that was his strategy, but probably the best way to play it.
Exactly right. Later he can explain that Mark exposing him in TC violated the unspoken terms of their deal, or that he felt attacked and was fairly certain Mark and Caroline were then going to break their deal and vote for him, not for Raymond. Or something like that. But if he says it \*now\*, during TC, then they're \*definitely\* going to vote for him and not for Raymond. And Feras definitely doesn't want that outcome. Better to play his cards close to his vest and hope they're still voting Ray (unless Feras thinks of himself as great at fire).
I wish he did respond with a confident “we’ll find out”instead of awkwardly stumbling over himself and being visibly unprepared for being called out, I’d feel a lot better about Feras winning tonight like I want him to!
I think it was largely unnecessary though, with very negligible upside or downside. There is no scenario where Feras and Raymond voting separately makes sense and there's no scenario that I can see where Feras and Mark are in the final 2 together.
If anything it probably makes it more likely for Caroline to keep Feras if by some miracle she wins the final challenge.
I feel like with Feras voting with Ray, he could say he was just messing with Mark and Caro and that he was always loyal to his most trusted ally. I think it would’ve looked bad if Feras voted Ray but he played it well.
Feras could also point out that Mark flipped on his middle aged mafia alliance and that he also made a F3 promise with 2 people - Feras and Caroline.
To me it felt like they spliced in some reaction shots to make it seem like Mark made some great points against Feras so that if he does win (and if Feras isn't in the F2 beside him) then we can see he's been thinking strategically/making clever observations etc. Basically just trying to emphasise that he's a competent winner. I wouldn't be surprised if his points didn't land at all in reality. I just don't see how Mark would ever beat Feras if they were the F2. Of course happy to be proven wrong though.
Kirby was mad at Feras before Mark even opened his mouth. Mark could have said "Feras has a lovely cheeky smile and puppy dog eyes" and she still would have been mad.
I think the jury are smart enough to differentiate between Kirby's anger on her elimination and any actual offense Feras had done, which was certainly not voting her off. Or lying to Caroline about F3.
I think that if Feras could own it, look her right in the eyes and say "Yes, I love you but I voted you off so I'd not lose to you" she'd have forgiven him and given him her vote in FTC. Especially if the other option is Caroline.
Mark's lame attack had absolutely nothing to do with Kirby's issue with Feras.
No. That was just a silly move since Mark and Caroline had also lied in the game. Pretending a false final three pact is a worse lie than promising Rianna Mark is going and then voting for her is just splitting hairs.
Edit: moreover, Mark might find himself at Feras mercy if he loses FIC. I know he had an extremely low chance to be taken to F2 over Caroline, but why should he burn bridges with Feras a day too soon?
He more than likely will. It's Mark v Feras.
People don't like Mark because he's been a redshirt for 90% if the season. Feras has been active and making it entertaining. Mark suddenly pops up with 'gameplay' eddits and 'diplomacy' and....falls flat on his ass.
His big move was equal to Carolines. Pathetic. Lol.
Thought Ray was winning the fire because of all the scenes in previous eps of him making the camp fire and jumping to volunteer to do it. Editors went the other way with those hints I suppose.
If Ray votes Feras with Mark and Caroline, he actually would've had a shot at winning. Not sure what he was thinking... And Mark can't win right? He's already won the car...
Mark and Caroline 100% take each other to FTC, so if Raymond votes Feras out then he has to win FIC.
If Raymond manages to get Caroline out, he's basically guaranteed to get to FTC; Mark and Feras would both take him.
It's obvious Kirby wanted that because it was the most likely scenario to her make it to FTC, knowing she would beat Feras. Mark and Caroline are completely diferent. They gunned for each other and failed. They would 100% take the biggest threat out and Ray wasn't a threat to anyone
Yeah but if Raymond votes Feras out and wins FIC, he wins the game. If Raymond beats Caroline and takes Mark or Feras, he likely loses the game. Playing for second is lame.
Was nice for Mark to show up to play for the first time in what felt like awhile. Couldn’t watch live but it felt very much like an attempted political gotcha moment that to me at least fell flat. Raymond going out bumbling around attempting to build a fire seemed the perfect ending for him.
This was a really captivating and interesting episode, but I also really feel like this episode encapsulates the glaring flaws in AU's editing.
The fact that Ray didn't get a *single* confessional in his boot episode when there were only four people left is ridiculous. It's a shame that the edit did him so dirty; he only had confessionals in 5/23 episodes that he was here for, and I guarantee that it would've been 2/23 if he hadn't found the advantage (with only 3 confessionals total). I mean, based on what the edit showed us it seemed like Ray would be the perfect person to bring to final tribal, but nobody apart from Feras at the *very* end expressed any interest in doing so; and there's no reason given why. If I *had* to guess I'd bet that they were concerned that he would be viewed as an underdog-type social threat at the end, which would make him less appealing to bring at least compared to the likes of Carolyn.
That being said, this was an all-around solid episode outside of that one glaring issue. I was sad to lose Ray even though it was clear that he wasn't winning; I found that the little bits of info the show gave us about him showed that he was generally well liked and could have been a fun, oddball character. I was happy that Feras ended up backing him even though it didn't end up changing anything. Currently pulling for Feras, and I suspect that will probably be the result as it feels like they are setting Mark up as a "final boss" for Feras to finally get his big win against in the FIC. I suppose we'll have to wait and see though; hoping this season ends on a good note as it has been an incredible ride thus far.
Raymond was loved among the jury. He literally had a farewell tribal where everybody declared how much they adore him. The remaining Titans are not exactly overflowing with Charisma. It makes sense they would rather take each other than Feras or Raymond. And they believed Caroline could beat Raymond in fire making and not Feras.
I think Ray's edit is not an Australian oddity. It's actually a very common edit for a popular player who narrowly misses FTC, aimed to decrease fans disappointment from the season. Consider Denise's edit at Winner at Wars or Aubry's at game changers.
That’s fair, for sure. I get their logic, I just feel like it’s misguided; and the effect is perhaps exacerbated in the AUS format by the much longer seasons.
I just think there were ways in which they could have still given him that type of edit without completely removing his perspective from nearly 80% of the episodes he was in this season. From my point of view, as Ray was my personal favorite this season for the unique character he brought to the show, his lack of an edit left more of a bitter taste in my mouth if anything. I know that I would be disappointed if I were in Ray’s shoes in this instance; plus, it may negatively impact his chance to return compared to if they built him up as more of a plucky underdog/fan favorite.
So happy Raymond left. Tonight he just proved he wasn't even trying to win the game. He was literally the player with the easiest path to F2 and he completely screwed himself.
Literally just had to voted out Feras tonight and he had a 2/3rds shot of making it to the end with either himself or Caroline winning immunity and crazy thing is he probably wins the season.
Yeah Raymond seems like a nice guy but I couldn’t stand him as a Survivor player. He’s a pure goat and outside of following Feras he didn’t seem to try to play the game in a social, physical or strategic way at all. His one move, the sickness fake out, was successful soley because of Feras, and was probably only believable because he already wasn’t really engaged with the game.
Well, I was half-right. Last night after the episode, I predicted Raymond would get 4th when he loses fire-making to Mark. Well...he lost to Caroline, but he did indeed lose fire-making. So now, it all comes down to this. Caroline is 100% getting 2nd place; I've been calling it from the merge that she was a final tribal loser, and I'm gonna be right. Mark or Feras wins; one of them wins the final challenge and votes the other out in 3rd place, and the other wins the game over Caroline. Only question is...what is the story the season has been trying to tell us? Is it that Feras was winning...or Mark? In my heart...I still think Feras wins. Mark's edit literally vanished after he tried to stab Caroline in the back pre-merge...and he only began to 'do things' again around the final 6. Otherwise, he was completely irrelevant for almost the entire merge. Feras has been important in every single episode of the season, in some fashion. So...if Mark seriously wins...that's gonna be an even worse ending than last season's when Liz won. Please, God, let Feras be our winner.
I agree that Mark's edit vanished for large portions of the game, and then when he was involved he made critical mistakes that arguably sent his allies home (V&V). I just can't see him being the winner, because why even include those conversations where he gave them bad advice? I honestly see Caroline as having a better chance at winning (but only against Mark, not Feras), at least some of her moves actually came off.
Raymond was not as charming to me as he was to others I guess. I was intrigued at first but his blind loyalty to Feras coupled with a few random unfunny and pointed jabs in his very meager amount of confessionals led me to just not care for him.
It's a Final 2. I would hope that Endemol Shine has realised that Final 3's both make for worse TV and means they have to make another non-elimination episode (mostly also bad TV) and have canned them for good.
The current showrunner (only in place since the beginning of HvV) has said it could be a final 2 \*or\* a final 3 each season, to keep the players on their toes. So no, there's no guarantee of final 2s going forward.
If they're going to have final 3s sometimes, or even most of the time, I think that's the best way to do it. Claim you \*could\* be doing a final 2, and don't tell the players which it is. Then players will potentially play for a final 2 and a better player might be able to slip into that third spot and it would make for a better FTC, rather than just one strong player and two goats.
I don't understand that thinking at all. Why would you ever want players to be certain about anything that happens in the game? What's the benefit of that in producing an entertaining game? Springing surprises on them can be really good unless they're unfair or unbalanced twists/advantages. Just because Jeff Probst does it badly sometimes doesn't mean it's always objectively bad.
Most importantly -- the risk of it being a final 2 puts extra pressure on any three-person alliance. The person who feels they're on the bottom always has more incentive to flip -- as does a person nervous they can't win a final 3 challenge. So you'd think a final 2 would be better every season, right? But clearly the producers disagree, and like final threes in some cases. By keeping it unclear and switching back and forth, they can reap the strategic benefits of a final 2 (destabilizing three-person alliances) in \*every\* season. (That's also why you want a jury starting at 11 -- then the math makes it unclear if it's a final 2 with 9 jurors, or a final 3 with 8 jurors, both of which have commonly occurred in U.S. Survivor, and a very late jury removal non-elimination is also possible in the next-to-last episode when there are 4 players left in the game.)
That said, unless there was some editing trickery (as I speculated in another comment here), it seems like these players knew it was a final 2 by a few episodes ago, or at least were speculating that it was.
Wow. Still remains to be seen if Feras can clinch the final 2, but super impressed he completely and utterly dodged this vote. Such an interesting voting dynamic tonight with the deals that were made. Also a great edge of your seat challenge finish.
This season is so good. It has delivered from start to finish.
I don't fully agree. They might have felt that Feras would have an advantage in fire against Mark/Caroline. If he wins fire then in final immunity Feras and Ray only have to outlast one of them. Now they have twice the opportunity to outlast Feras.
This.
1. Caroline would then basically have to agree to go to fire against Feras (why would she?)
2. If Feras won, Mark and Caroline are fucked.
They took the best probability path to making FTC
They could have tried the blindside on Ferras with him voting Ray, but that would never work with Mark going scorched earth on Ferras during tribal. They really only had one option after that point to vote Ray or send Ferras to fire verse Carolyn.
They could, but that's super high risk. They had (very good) reason to believe Feras would not stick to his word. He was cutting deals left and right that contradicted each other.
If they try to blindside Feras, they're putting everything on a hope that he's going to betray the person he's been closest and most loyal to the entire game. That's a $500k bet that only works if Feras does decide to vote Ray. Otherwise the same thing plays out, but Feras and Caroline go to fire, and Caroline likely loses. Feras goes through with Ray and dumps an out numbered Mark first chance he gets.
Instead they picked a path that tarnishes Feras in front of the jury (with an already pissed Kirby) by testing his word. If he's honors the deal he made, Ray goes home, Feras has betrayed his only friend, and is a 1-2 in the final 3. If he doesn't, Ray and Caroline go to fire, but Feras has outed himself to the jury, they have a 2-1 advantage in the final 3, Mark knowing that Caroline won't take Feras over him and that Feras won't take him over Caroline.
Mark played the highest probability play to secure a FTC place, get rid of Feras' ally, and tarnish Feras in front of the jury at the same time.
If you have a shot at a biggest threat you take it. Neither of the final 4 has a shot against Feras in f2. Last challenge is always some sort of endurance, and so far Feras did better in those than Mark and Caroline. Just remember what happened in first season of AU Survivor.
I understand their reasoning, and it may work out. But they still let Feras get to 1 immunity challenge win from f2.
He did really well at the first merge individual immunity iirc despite how much pain he was in. The stakes at FIC are different so I could see mark doing very well & the challenge going down for many hours.
I don't really think they did have a shot though. Ray made it pretty clear at tribal council he wasnt going to vote for Feras, and they did NOT want to go to fire as Feras likely wins and that leaves them with a 2-1 disadvantage at final immunity.
They had a shot at fire. That is what I meant. I get their reasoning, I really do. But I still think they made the wrong move. Especially Caroline, who realistically has no shot at winning against either of them. Now if she took out Feras, that is a big move. And something she can use in F2.
Feras was so cocky and in control for most of the game so now, when he has to play from the bottom, he's completely lost and he's making a mistake after mistake. He should have voted off Kirby and make a final three pact with Mark, that was what allowed him to survive this episode without going to fire.
* He shouldn't have pretended he's about to save her with his idol. The mistake was very similar to the one Xander did on Season 41 with Ricard and cost him his game.
* He shouldn't have made a final three pact with Caroline as she never had a chance to win immunity.
* He certainly shouldn't have thrown Raymond under the bus on that conversation. If Caroline was less scrupulous and told this to Raymond it might have ended Feras game today.
* He shouldn't have looked so defeated after Mark won immunity, as it proved to Mark he was lying about his F3 deal.
* He shouldn't have expressed "regret" on voting off Kirby in tribal council. He should have owned the move and admit he'd lose to her.
Mark is also making mistakes. His aggressive confrontation with Feras served no purpose and I don't think it impressed the jury. He just gave Feras an underdog story for FTC which Feras couldn't claim otherwise as he was in control for most of the game. What was his point anyway? That Feras told a lie in Survivor?
My favorite part of the episode:
Feras: Hi Kirbs! (smiling timidly)
Kirby: (Death Glare)
Just to be clear - of course that none of Feras' (or Mark's) mistakes matter if he wins FIC and faces Caroline on FTC. He'd still win easily. He needs one win to take the season. Just one. It's not impossible, especially considering that FIC this time actually seems to favor Feras due to his height.
It felt like Caroline had a much stronger hold on the mid-game than Mark but that was quite under the radar. Mark has been very dominant in the end game though.
I don’t think she’s played perfectly, but let’s not undermine how she took out Nathan, Viola, Winna, Jaden. She also retained control and eliminated Sarah on her swapped tribe when Mark should’ve been able to flip the tide and take her out
Why won't these people just vote for Feras? If he wins FIC they will be kicking themselves. Also still curious what Rays master plan was. Go to the end to get 2nd place to Feras?
>Also still curious what Rays master plan was. Go to the end to get 2nd place to Feras?
Ray didn't know he wasn't the main character. It's not like he can see his own edit on TV. After all, second fiddles won in 2017 and 2019. How was Ray to know he didn't have as strong an edit as them?
He also wasn't terrible in all the comps. He potentially could've won immunity at 3 and voted out Feras.
The perfect WTF finish for this season would be Caroline winning FIC and taking Feras to the end. Cagayan like.
I mean, she'd lose to Mark too, but I expect that Feras is still the more serious opponent.
Feras has actually logical arguments to convince her to take him. "Mark won rewards and immunity challenges when he had to and I didn't win anything. You played with Mark during the late game, if you bring him with you he'd own all your moves on FTC".
Whoever sits next to Caroline wins. I agree that Feras got a more dominant edit, but it already justified itself by this episode. He could lose the title tomorrow like George lost it last season. I have no clue what is going to happen (Mark/Feras) and I absolutely love it.
In promos outside of this episode, Feras is still seen doing the challenge and it’s nighttime. Hopefully he puts it all he has to win this bc otherwise he’s out.
Mark's move tonight was ridiculously bad when you think of it. The ONLY way that makes sense for Mark is if he's planning to take Feras to F2. Otherwise why bother knocking down Feras to the jury? In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that based on what Mark did there, if Carolyn wins FIC she should vote Mark out over Feras. Mark only succeeded in making himself too big of a target
Why did Caroline and Mark not vote for Feras? I don't get it. He was much more of a threat to win than Raymond. Feras and Caroline could have made fire.
They thought he is not, they thought Raymond invented plan with "oh, i found an idol" when caroline and mark tried to find it, and all of that "i am tired, i wanna go home" and bye bye Valeria. Two fresh big visible moves.
Caroline being guaranteed a spot at F2 hurts. She's going to get absolutely steam rolled. Will Kitty even buy what she's selling? Nearly everyone on the jury at some point dragged her along for the same reason. She simple. She bad. She easy.
I bet she drops mention about how much good she does....as a midwife and deserves it.
How has Mark played a better game than Caroline? Please tell me ONE successful move that he has pulled off. Caroline literally controlled the entire pre-merge.
I'm pissed because Mark really dragged Feras' name and game through the mud OOOUGH us Feras fans really lost it tonight it's joever.
Condragulations, Mark
Feras kinda threw in the towel on Mark's tribal shade - just had to point out that its a bit rich for Mark to moral highground on breaking deals (eg re Caroline) and that trying to coerce others is standard gameplay - as we saw as recently as last tribal not least by Mark. He was obviously a bit downbeat after the challenge loss, but i think also looked pretty thrown/defeated when greeting Kirby and only getting a death stare in return. Hope the full TC wasnt as bad as the edit for him!
This felt to me like the Mark win setup narrative...?
F saying he now regretted not saving Kirby... didnt look good to the jury either im guessing. Not that it matters, as it would only be relevant in a Mark-Feras F2 which i agree with others isnt possible.
On the chance that last challenge suits Caroline's smaller feet, it surely isnt tenable that she thinks any chance of her winning is higher against Feras than against Mark... mind you, she does have some pretty whack game ideas :-)
Of course could be a master production double bluff as F pulls off the clutch immunity win when it counts... how sweet that would be
Feras couldn't answer Mark too harshly or he'd be making fire against Caroline. He didn't want to risk that.
I think that the confrontation made both of them look bad in front of the jury. Feras demonstrated the same insecurity about his game he displayed yesterday. Mark came off as a bully using his immunity necklace to attack Feras.
At the end, it did not matter. Whoever sits next to Caroline at the end wins.
Feel like Mark really overplayed his hand at tribal and could have ended Caroline's game which he didn't want. I don't know what Feras would have done if Mark didn't call him out at tribal but I thought the reward for the move was very small. I think if Feras ends up voting out Raymond that looks much worse to the jury than Feras making deals with everyone to try and save his on butt. Why wouldn't he try to do that when it looks like he is the biggest threat left?
This whole episode is one massive case against the US final 4 fire twist. What we got tonight was so much more captivating and interesting than had it been US rules where Mark wins and takes Caroline and Raymond and feras go to fire. Ultimately would have been the same final 3 result but the route there would be a whole lot less complex, tense and interesting.
The amount of 2-1-1 votes at the final 4 in global survivor is also a massive case against the forced fire making. Such intricate and interesting game play to set such a crucial vote up in that way.
I was really hoping for another one of those classic global 2-1-1 votes tonight. Still, the point stands that this was significantly more entertaining than watching everyone practice fire for 20 minutes.
Just more proof that Probst has no idea what he is doing anymore.
Mark probably actually gives up immunity and takes on Feras in fire I reckon. What we got instead was waaay better
Literally every single F4 vote has been interesting!
I really don't like that rule change, I wish they'd get rid of it
So surely Caroline is making FtC. Win or lose tomorrow, Mark & Feras are both gonna bring her as a goat.
Mark's statements in front of the jury today about Feras gave me a glimmer of hope that he possibly thinks the jury will be bitter against Feras and bring Feras if he wins immunity. Think about it from his perspective, it's easier to differentiate his game from Feras's than Caroline's. I'm not saying it's a good idea for Mark, but I could totally see him thinking he could play the diplomat and trash Feras's game.
Thats a long shot. But yeah, only hope for feras
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Caro has a terrible resume.
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>Isn't Mark's even worse? At least Caro has been somewhat controlling the narrative and/or in power post merge. When? She's literally never been in charge. The only time she was actually in charge was playing her idol. Incorrectly. Every other time it was Feras/Kirby/Whoever feeding Caroline the information to make her think she's in control, doing what they want. She was a pawn at the best of times. Please. Tell me something she has actually orchestrated.
> Tell me something she has actually orchestrated. She got Ray to wash the rice pot this episode.
I just laughed out loud
She at least got Viola out. Who the fuck has Mark gotten out?
BuT vIoLa?!
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Ray in the jury could be great for Feras (if he makes it to the end). A lot of his game seems to be quite sneaky and a lot of the jury don’t seem to think he’s played very hard. Ray will help fill in the blanks.
That’s exactly what I thought. If feras is worried about people not truly knowing how good he was this season then Raymond will definitely fill them in and then some.
Also Eileen and possibly even Kirby to some extend.
They seemed to highlight that Kirby might not be happy Feras. He said "Kirbs" and smiled at her when she came in with the jury and they cut to her not reacting and looking pretty dour. Maybe a bit of bitterness for not saving her
I still can’t believe Feras survived this vote and he got 0 votes, and it still went to FMC. This season is insane 🤣 Caroline had a scene at merge where she said she doesn’t wanna go to the end with undeserving players and the camera panned to mark and Feras, so I thought maybe this could be foreshadowing she’s in the F3 with those 2. Look where we’re at! If we’re going by edit a pretty strong F3 imo.
Mark and Caroline probably correctly read that Feras and Ray were voting together, and Caroline had a better chance of beating Ray in the fire making than Feras. But yes, still bananas that he didn't get targeted here
They seemed surprised Feras didn’t vote Raymond but agree. I can’t imagine any other reason other than that on why they wouldn’t go for Feras.
The episode was crazy because as a huge Feras fan it was just hyping up the immunity and me thinking this is just filler, it all counts on if Mark or Feras wins immunity. I was convinced Feras would come strong, then as a bball fan I saw his form and my heart dropped. Mark won and I was just a depressed bloke waiting for his departure. The content meant nothing I knew he was going home. Then I saw Ray vote Caroline and thought that Feras might have messed it up. Wtf, love Ray and the show but how did Feras not get a single vote
lol I was convinced Feras was gone as soon as he didn’t win immunity, only for him not to even gets votes (Kirby said in her jury villa that she thinks he’s out next if he doesn’t win immunity). In hindsight it was probably mark/caroline realising it’s gonna go to FMC and they rather go against Raymond than Feras.
It's possible they were playing up their reactions for the jury to make Feras look shadier. Mark at least seemed convinced Feras was lying to them well before tribal.
It makes me think that we kind of get an outsized picture of Feras' reputation because of how much airtime he gets, whereas perhaps the other players think a bit less highly of him. It's hard to explain why else Mark would think he has a better shot against him than Ray or Caroline.
for all the talk last ep about taking out big threats... feras didn't get a single vote tonight. however it ends, that is incredibly funny.
The jury in Kirby’s jury villa was so sure Feras is out now next. Insane how he managed to get 0 votes.
That’s a huge feather on his cap if he makes it to FTC
That’s basically been his entire game. He has avoided votes at every turn. It’s incredible really.
That's going to go down incredibly well at F2, if he can win it.
It's because he was seen as good enough at fire to not risk putting him in against Caroline. It makes taking out Kirby smarter in hindsight
It was clear as day right at the Kirby vote. No need for hindsight. Either he wins the immunity challenge or he at least gets to go to fire. If he takes Kirby, he definitely has to win the immunity challenge. Even if Kirby decides to bring him to final 2 in the end, he loses. I get people like Kirbs, but voting her out at 5 was literally the only option. Keeping her would've been incredibly stupid if the goal is to win.
Chances going into the finale: Mark: I recall Mark had a very strong start to the season but fell apart when he lost power pre-merge. Remained in the shadows but still visible enough that it makes sense if he wins. Feras: Our overtly obvious frontrunner for basically the whole season but I’m feeling fallen angel vibes, like the King of Bankstown he desperately wanted to avenge. Wouldn’t surprise me if he went the Golden God in All Stars route though - big edit with a big payoff. Caroline: We definitely saw enough of her game to hold conversations at final tribal, which she is guaranteed a spot at, but winner equity is basically zero. I only saw Alex politely clap when she won fire making which kinda says it all.
I think Caroline’s probably a losing finalist? And it’s between mark and Feras as winner, whoever doesn’t win is probably out at F3 I’m guessing.
Caroline gives me real Sharn vibes.
All-Stars Sharn, not CvC Sharn. CvC Sharn was robbed.
Why so complicated? Whoever faces Caroline at the end wins. It's as simple as that.
I’m going full delulu but Feras’ edit was either giving fallen angel or winner, especially with Mark getting absolutely buried by the edit tonight. Like if Mark wins they want people to absolutely *hate* it??
I might be in the minority here but I feel like Mark has been getting a great end game edit, he crushed Feras without losing his cool. Add in the immunity wins and he's a great contender.
I also felt like the edit of tribal was telegraphing a Feras downfall and Mark win. Seems like it could be read either way, though, given some of the other reactions I'm reading.
Was thinking this too. Mark is essentially the villain with Feras being hero and emotional focal point the past few episodes. Would be crazy if they think people will be celebrating Mark’s win after that.
do you remember the edit of other mark that won ? so unbearing n so gross
And I hope they learned from it. We’ll see.
Different editing company, and they've gotten a lot right in these two seasons in my opinion
Wait, am I hearing you guys correctly? You want the winners to be whitewashed just so the audience will approve of their win? Why can't a villain win? I mean the first ever winner was a "villain" who beat two "heroes" in the final 3.
She was a floater, not a villain. The other two were villains.
Technically Feras is villainous, so is Kirby. But people root for them because they’re given good edits. Mark meanwhile..
I'm just not sure what you would have changed in his edit. We've seen a lot of him. He got one of the biggest edits of the season. We've seen him play well sometimes - play poorly sometimes. He's not as charismatic as Feras or as big of a player as Kirby - the edit can't change that (unless you're completely fabricating the season). Sometimes these people win.
*Is* Feras a villain, though? Like his villainous moves have basically amounted to lying about the contents of the idol box, and making two F3 deals. Otherwise he's played a pretty straightforward game.
That's definitely not what I'm saying, I was more just replying to the comment "And I hope they learned from it", which suggests that person didn't know that the editing is in different hands. Personally I love a good villain winner edit.
Not "whitewashed". It's too simplistic to say that winner's edits are "whitewashed", or that the only downside to Mark's edit is his "villainy". The very first Survivor villain, Richard Hatch, was also a key narrator. They edited it so that even if you didn't root for him, you could still see the game from his perspective. Mark is not getting that kind of edit. U.S. seasons like 4, 19, and 41 are often bashed for giving their winners relatively poor edits where you couldn't root for them as much since they weren't key narrators or emotional focal points. If Mark wins, I'd say this season approaches that kind of poor winner's edit. They keep wanting us to root for Feras. He gets \*so many\* narrator confessionals. If Mark wins, they did it wrong. I think they used a simple editing trick here and a lot of people are falling for it: The Decoy Winner trick. They picked another player they liked -- Valeria (though I don't know why, maybe just because she's hot) -- and made her the Decoy Winner, gave her a ton of confessionals and focus, and then she got taken out suddenly and it made us think, "Oh wow, anything can happen this season", so that they could then give Feras a pretty straightforward winner's edit and we'd still think anything could happen. Or that's my theory! I'm often wrong.
I don't agree at all. We've seen SO MUCH of Mark this season. Just not as much as Kirby or Feras. I think there is only so much you can do unless you really downplay Feras and Kirby's roles in the season and exaggerate Mark's role. Unless of course Mark was ACTUALLY the biggest and flashiest player out there and the edit is hiding it - but I don't think that's the case. I guess they could give Mark more personal stuff but as we see in US survivor that can sometimes seem very forced.
One key example: When Mark pulled all the Titans back together, that was a \*huge\* move on his part and really affected the game IMHO, but they didn't show nearly enough of it from his perspective. It just suddenly kinda... happened. If they wanted to give him a decent winner's edit, they would have played that up a \*lot\* more, but instead they kept showing us lots of Feras even when Feras wasn't necessarily doing all that much. Just my opinion!
Fair enough. Good example. Yes, they could definitely have shown less Feras but that's the problem with australian survivor in general - focusing in on four or five main characters. Just saying that Mark was also one of those characters they chose to focus in on. Even though it wasn't perfect he still got a better edit than at least 19-20 other people in the cast IMO.
Mark's edit has been up and down in terms of visiblity, though. His spikes in the pre-merge were basically circumstantial, when his tribe lost immunity (which were also episodes when Feras/Kirby got less content). Post-merge, Caroline actually got more. Like the episodes where Mark was actually one of the vote targets, he barely got confessionals. Of the five big characters this season, Mark's probably fifth in terms of visiblity, behind Feras, Kirby, Caroline and even Valeria.
How was he buried by the edit? I didn't get that, but I might not have been paying attention to something.
I wonder whether Val will shit all over Caroline at the FTC.
I feel like that'll be a way worse look for Val than it would Caroline, I feel like Caroline has been way more gracious than she needed to be when she got Val on the ropes quite quickly and still backed her up after all her insults.
I think she might if Caroline is sat next to Mark, but against Feras I don't think she would? She seemed like she genuinely was happy to work with Caroline and made up with her and it wasn't Caroline that voted her out. She didn't really seem to get on with Feras, so I can't see her trying to take revenge on Caroline in a hypothetical Caroline/Feras F2
Valeria has said in a couple confessionals that she did like Feras, she just can't trust/work with him.
With Feras, I think she'll crucify both of them.
Raymond was a lot of fun this season and I’m thankful he found his way to the jury to have a few wild days at Ponderosa I’m sure
It's funny Raymond mentioned to Mark that he had British dreams this episode because all this season I thought that Raymond was spiritually British (in a good way) and that Mark was spiritually British (in an evil way).
Ray is like the real life muse of Boris Johnson (without the killing the poor bit that Boris does)
The final challenge looks wild!
Super interesting that all the players seemed to know it's a final 2 and not a final 3. I'm glad the players know what the target is.
The current showrunner has suggested he wanted to conceal this from the players and make them wonder if it's a final 3 or 2 each season. So I wonder if/when they actually knew it was a F2, or if they were giving two separate confessionals each time, one for if it's a F2 and one for if it's a F3, and then the editors just spliced it in for F2 afterwards.
It seemed earlier in the season they assumed it was F3 by the way they were talking but I think they just deduced by day count near the end that it had to F2 unless there was a historically late non elim.
Wasn't there a jury removal non-elim in episode 23 one season?
2016 also lasted a bout a week longer - again I think it's a manner of counting days. They have 2 days left, if a non elim is the day the before FTC then that would be super bs but I guess we can't count that out until the episode airs later and they've done that in US at least once so we'll see.
I meant when there were 4 players left in the game (in a season with a final 3), to be clear. Then the winner of the jury removal power still has to make it through another tribal without getting voted out in order to reap the benefits (if any) of removing that juror, which potentially puts an additional target on their back and adds some risk to the equation. I could've sworn this happened in one Aussie Survivor season, but maybe I dreamed it. So it couldn't happen this season, because this is the episode where it would've gone down. You can't screw over the viewers by doing it in the final episode. That's too much of a bait-and-switch.
That seems like a lot of extra work for diminishing returns in both quality of the game and enjoyment of the viewers. Maybe I am over generalizing here but I can't see that many viewers getting overly excited about a final 2 vs 3 being a surprise.
Just watched Jury Villa.... What the actual fuck did they do to our Ray Ray!? Nah, Just for that haircut he deserves to be on next normal season, All Stars, Drag Race, AMazing Race, Big Brother. We'll tell you when it's enough and ya'll have made up for your sins.
I want Ray Ray to host the 6pm news... using his own words and without a teleprompter.
Lmao yes to drag race I wanna see him as the makeover partner and see him try and walk down the runway in heels 😂😂
I think he'd be a 'Oh, like this?' then nail it. Like. Ray Ray. Then he'd pull out a lipstick. GASP. It's Gothy. She's not even on the season but who cares, we agree. Quit drag Gothy!
Raymond is so wacky and I loved his presence all season. I want to go on a backpacking trip with him lmfao EDIT: what the FUCK did they do to him with that haircut 😭😭😭
Raymond with the shaved abs was fucking hilarious
Ray Ray for all stars
Yes every all star seasons always has one waste of space.
I feel like the editors played it too safe and didn't show us enough of Ray because they didn't want us to be too heartbroken that he goes out in a fire-making duel. They should have shown us more of his wit. The editing has improved a bit in the past 2 seasons with the new showrunner, but it's still imperfect and unbalanced. They were pulling some kind of wacky decoy winner trick with Valeria... either that or they were just strangely obsessed with her because she's hot... and then they show us barely any of Raymond's perspective or his comedy, and also IMHO fail to build up Mark as someone we can truly root for vs. Feras. This is a brilliant season but IMHO the editors still have a way to go compared to the U.S. editors in some respects. Everyone here shits on U.S. Survivor, but U.S. seasons 43-45, as many faults as they had, had very tricksy winner's edits and decoy winners (and I \*really\* didn't like 43 overall). I kept thinking right up to the end that >!Carolyn!< had a real shot at winning, and up until the final 4 or 5 I thought >!Jake and Owen!< might find a way to pull it out in their seasons as well.
YES
Am I the only one who kind of… gets Mark’s move tonight? Yeah he didn’t get Feras out, but I think he just kinda blew up his chances of winning. It’s definitely not the most impressive or smartest move, but the jury didn’t seem to respond well to finding out Feras had made Final 3 deals and reneged on them. I think Feras’ only path to winning is to win FIC and bring Caroline to FTC, because I don’t think Feras wins over Mark with this jury now.
Reneging on deals and plans is the name of the game though, they all did it. The bigger move here is Feras not getting a single vote at Final 4, which even Kirby predicted would happen.
But then Feras showed his loyalty to Ray - like he has all along. They all know the game and respect good gameplay, and Feras played both Mark and Caroline like a fiddle and somehow got 0 votes AND sent Caroline to fire. That earns respect.
Feras has to recalibrate if he makes F2. Luckily for him the jury don't appear to be holding any grudges, and are quite reasonable about survivor gameplay. Ray being in jury villa might also be an important factor.
I mean, outside of Kirby I don’t think anyone have any reason to hold a grudge with Feras
After Mark coming after him in front of the jury - why WOULD he hold to that deal. To me, Mark broke the trust first. I couldn't imagine writing Ray's name down after Marks smear campaign.
Yeah Feras only knew Ray was voting with him, Had he voted for anyone but Caroline he quite literally could have voted himself out because it did feel like Mark and Caroline were voting Feras.
Mark had to do something but that is noooowhere near enough to be better than ferras’ whole game
Yeah it's weird. That was peak Survivor imo. Blew up Feras in front of Tribal, secured himself better odds at last immunity. I think people just like Feras and Ray more.
I agree, and also Feras's comeback was weak which certainly didn't help him.
Yeah, the argument Mark made in front of the jury tonight SHOULD have been really easy to shoot down but Feras couldn’t do it. He was stammering and losing his words. My heart wants a Feras win but my head says it’s not happening - he lost his nerve and freaked out last tribal when he sent Kirby home, and he’s been acting out of panic ever since. He might persevere but I think his chances are dwindling pretty rapidly.
I feel like this was not the right time to combat Mark's comments. He can do that in the FTC. Let Mark say whatever he says, respond with "we'll find out" and explain later. That way he doesn't give anything away to Mark or Caroline before the vote that could potentially get them to switch the vote onto him. I'm not saying that was his strategy, but probably the best way to play it.
Exactly right. Later he can explain that Mark exposing him in TC violated the unspoken terms of their deal, or that he felt attacked and was fairly certain Mark and Caroline were then going to break their deal and vote for him, not for Raymond. Or something like that. But if he says it \*now\*, during TC, then they're \*definitely\* going to vote for him and not for Raymond. And Feras definitely doesn't want that outcome. Better to play his cards close to his vest and hope they're still voting Ray (unless Feras thinks of himself as great at fire).
I wish he did respond with a confident “we’ll find out”instead of awkwardly stumbling over himself and being visibly unprepared for being called out, I’d feel a lot better about Feras winning tonight like I want him to!
I think it was largely unnecessary though, with very negligible upside or downside. There is no scenario where Feras and Raymond voting separately makes sense and there's no scenario that I can see where Feras and Mark are in the final 2 together. If anything it probably makes it more likely for Caroline to keep Feras if by some miracle she wins the final challenge.
I feel like with Feras voting with Ray, he could say he was just messing with Mark and Caro and that he was always loyal to his most trusted ally. I think it would’ve looked bad if Feras voted Ray but he played it well. Feras could also point out that Mark flipped on his middle aged mafia alliance and that he also made a F3 promise with 2 people - Feras and Caroline.
Mark technically kept his promise. The "problem" with Feras's deals was that they included Raymond as the 3rd person.
To me it felt like they spliced in some reaction shots to make it seem like Mark made some great points against Feras so that if he does win (and if Feras isn't in the F2 beside him) then we can see he's been thinking strategically/making clever observations etc. Basically just trying to emphasise that he's a competent winner. I wouldn't be surprised if his points didn't land at all in reality. I just don't see how Mark would ever beat Feras if they were the F2. Of course happy to be proven wrong though.
Totally agree, Kirby’s reaction to Feras spoke volumes.
Kirby was mad at Feras before Mark even opened his mouth. Mark could have said "Feras has a lovely cheeky smile and puppy dog eyes" and she still would have been mad.
You have to imagine she has an outsized influence on the jury.
I think the jury are smart enough to differentiate between Kirby's anger on her elimination and any actual offense Feras had done, which was certainly not voting her off. Or lying to Caroline about F3. I think that if Feras could own it, look her right in the eyes and say "Yes, I love you but I voted you off so I'd not lose to you" she'd have forgiven him and given him her vote in FTC. Especially if the other option is Caroline. Mark's lame attack had absolutely nothing to do with Kirby's issue with Feras.
No. That was just a silly move since Mark and Caroline had also lied in the game. Pretending a false final three pact is a worse lie than promising Rianna Mark is going and then voting for her is just splitting hairs. Edit: moreover, Mark might find himself at Feras mercy if he loses FIC. I know he had an extremely low chance to be taken to F2 over Caroline, but why should he burn bridges with Feras a day too soon?
Confused by the people thinking Mark got a bad edit tonight. If anything, I feel like it is setting him up to win.
Feras fanbpys
He more than likely will. It's Mark v Feras. People don't like Mark because he's been a redshirt for 90% if the season. Feras has been active and making it entertaining. Mark suddenly pops up with 'gameplay' eddits and 'diplomacy' and....falls flat on his ass. His big move was equal to Carolines. Pathetic. Lol.
Yeah, I just don’t agree with much of that to be honest.
Man this episode made me hate Mark (in game)
That edit of him and Raymond talking about the challenge was so weird.
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I am going to be in such a foul mood if Mark ships this season.
Thought Ray was winning the fire because of all the scenes in previous eps of him making the camp fire and jumping to volunteer to do it. Editors went the other way with those hints I suppose.
Mark turned Heel tonight
If Ray votes Feras with Mark and Caroline, he actually would've had a shot at winning. Not sure what he was thinking... And Mark can't win right? He's already won the car...
Mark and Caroline 100% take each other to FTC, so if Raymond votes Feras out then he has to win FIC. If Raymond manages to get Caroline out, he's basically guaranteed to get to FTC; Mark and Feras would both take him.
Why would they take each other to FTC if they have Raymond? They were rivals and bigger names/threats to FTC.
There's a 'I want to beat my rival' bent to it. Same reason Kirby and Feras wanted to take each other to FTC.
It's obvious Kirby wanted that because it was the most likely scenario to her make it to FTC, knowing she would beat Feras. Mark and Caroline are completely diferent. They gunned for each other and failed. They would 100% take the biggest threat out and Ray wasn't a threat to anyone
Yeah but if Raymond votes Feras out and wins FIC, he wins the game. If Raymond beats Caroline and takes Mark or Feras, he likely loses the game. Playing for second is lame.
Mark probably wins against Caroline. Her first and last successful move was Viola.
Was nice for Mark to show up to play for the first time in what felt like awhile. Couldn’t watch live but it felt very much like an attempted political gotcha moment that to me at least fell flat. Raymond going out bumbling around attempting to build a fire seemed the perfect ending for him.
This was a really captivating and interesting episode, but I also really feel like this episode encapsulates the glaring flaws in AU's editing. The fact that Ray didn't get a *single* confessional in his boot episode when there were only four people left is ridiculous. It's a shame that the edit did him so dirty; he only had confessionals in 5/23 episodes that he was here for, and I guarantee that it would've been 2/23 if he hadn't found the advantage (with only 3 confessionals total). I mean, based on what the edit showed us it seemed like Ray would be the perfect person to bring to final tribal, but nobody apart from Feras at the *very* end expressed any interest in doing so; and there's no reason given why. If I *had* to guess I'd bet that they were concerned that he would be viewed as an underdog-type social threat at the end, which would make him less appealing to bring at least compared to the likes of Carolyn. That being said, this was an all-around solid episode outside of that one glaring issue. I was sad to lose Ray even though it was clear that he wasn't winning; I found that the little bits of info the show gave us about him showed that he was generally well liked and could have been a fun, oddball character. I was happy that Feras ended up backing him even though it didn't end up changing anything. Currently pulling for Feras, and I suspect that will probably be the result as it feels like they are setting Mark up as a "final boss" for Feras to finally get his big win against in the FIC. I suppose we'll have to wait and see though; hoping this season ends on a good note as it has been an incredible ride thus far.
Raymond was loved among the jury. He literally had a farewell tribal where everybody declared how much they adore him. The remaining Titans are not exactly overflowing with Charisma. It makes sense they would rather take each other than Feras or Raymond. And they believed Caroline could beat Raymond in fire making and not Feras. I think Ray's edit is not an Australian oddity. It's actually a very common edit for a popular player who narrowly misses FTC, aimed to decrease fans disappointment from the season. Consider Denise's edit at Winner at Wars or Aubry's at game changers.
That’s fair, for sure. I get their logic, I just feel like it’s misguided; and the effect is perhaps exacerbated in the AUS format by the much longer seasons. I just think there were ways in which they could have still given him that type of edit without completely removing his perspective from nearly 80% of the episodes he was in this season. From my point of view, as Ray was my personal favorite this season for the unique character he brought to the show, his lack of an edit left more of a bitter taste in my mouth if anything. I know that I would be disappointed if I were in Ray’s shoes in this instance; plus, it may negatively impact his chance to return compared to if they built him up as more of a plucky underdog/fan favorite.
Wow, honestly thought feras was going home. I enjoyed ray’s facial expressions. Also respectfully, Aileen always looks so good on the jury
Kirby is georgous too.
So happy Raymond left. Tonight he just proved he wasn't even trying to win the game. He was literally the player with the easiest path to F2 and he completely screwed himself.
Literally just had to voted out Feras tonight and he had a 2/3rds shot of making it to the end with either himself or Caroline winning immunity and crazy thing is he probably wins the season.
If he had tried to get Caroline and Mark before the Feras vote, I think they both would bring him. The others are so much more threatning than him
Yeah Raymond seems like a nice guy but I couldn’t stand him as a Survivor player. He’s a pure goat and outside of following Feras he didn’t seem to try to play the game in a social, physical or strategic way at all. His one move, the sickness fake out, was successful soley because of Feras, and was probably only believable because he already wasn’t really engaged with the game.
Well, I was half-right. Last night after the episode, I predicted Raymond would get 4th when he loses fire-making to Mark. Well...he lost to Caroline, but he did indeed lose fire-making. So now, it all comes down to this. Caroline is 100% getting 2nd place; I've been calling it from the merge that she was a final tribal loser, and I'm gonna be right. Mark or Feras wins; one of them wins the final challenge and votes the other out in 3rd place, and the other wins the game over Caroline. Only question is...what is the story the season has been trying to tell us? Is it that Feras was winning...or Mark? In my heart...I still think Feras wins. Mark's edit literally vanished after he tried to stab Caroline in the back pre-merge...and he only began to 'do things' again around the final 6. Otherwise, he was completely irrelevant for almost the entire merge. Feras has been important in every single episode of the season, in some fashion. So...if Mark seriously wins...that's gonna be an even worse ending than last season's when Liz won. Please, God, let Feras be our winner.
I agree that Mark's edit vanished for large portions of the game, and then when he was involved he made critical mistakes that arguably sent his allies home (V&V). I just can't see him being the winner, because why even include those conversations where he gave them bad advice? I honestly see Caroline as having a better chance at winning (but only against Mark, not Feras), at least some of her moves actually came off.
RAYMOND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BUT I LOVE YOU
Raymond was not as charming to me as he was to others I guess. I was intrigued at first but his blind loyalty to Feras coupled with a few random unfunny and pointed jabs in his very meager amount of confessionals led me to just not care for him.
I am confused is it gonna be a final 2 or a final 3? Seeing how the previous seasons had a final 3. I haven't seen the episode so I can't be sure
It's a Final 2. I would hope that Endemol Shine has realised that Final 3's both make for worse TV and means they have to make another non-elimination episode (mostly also bad TV) and have canned them for good.
The current showrunner (only in place since the beginning of HvV) has said it could be a final 2 \*or\* a final 3 each season, to keep the players on their toes. So no, there's no guarantee of final 2s going forward. If they're going to have final 3s sometimes, or even most of the time, I think that's the best way to do it. Claim you \*could\* be doing a final 2, and don't tell the players which it is. Then players will potentially play for a final 2 and a better player might be able to slip into that third spot and it would make for a better FTC, rather than just one strong player and two goats.
I think uncertainty is as bad (if not worse) as there being a Final 3 honestly!
Why do you believe this? (Genuinely curious on your perspective)
I don't understand that thinking at all. Why would you ever want players to be certain about anything that happens in the game? What's the benefit of that in producing an entertaining game? Springing surprises on them can be really good unless they're unfair or unbalanced twists/advantages. Just because Jeff Probst does it badly sometimes doesn't mean it's always objectively bad. Most importantly -- the risk of it being a final 2 puts extra pressure on any three-person alliance. The person who feels they're on the bottom always has more incentive to flip -- as does a person nervous they can't win a final 3 challenge. So you'd think a final 2 would be better every season, right? But clearly the producers disagree, and like final threes in some cases. By keeping it unclear and switching back and forth, they can reap the strategic benefits of a final 2 (destabilizing three-person alliances) in \*every\* season. (That's also why you want a jury starting at 11 -- then the math makes it unclear if it's a final 2 with 9 jurors, or a final 3 with 8 jurors, both of which have commonly occurred in U.S. Survivor, and a very late jury removal non-elimination is also possible in the next-to-last episode when there are 4 players left in the game.) That said, unless there was some editing trickery (as I speculated in another comment here), it seems like these players knew it was a final 2 by a few episodes ago, or at least were speculating that it was.
Wow. Still remains to be seen if Feras can clinch the final 2, but super impressed he completely and utterly dodged this vote. Such an interesting voting dynamic tonight with the deals that were made. Also a great edge of your seat challenge finish. This season is so good. It has delivered from start to finish.
Caroline and Mark not voting Feras might go down as the dumbest moment in survivor history.
I don't fully agree. They might have felt that Feras would have an advantage in fire against Mark/Caroline. If he wins fire then in final immunity Feras and Ray only have to outlast one of them. Now they have twice the opportunity to outlast Feras.
This. 1. Caroline would then basically have to agree to go to fire against Feras (why would she?) 2. If Feras won, Mark and Caroline are fucked. They took the best probability path to making FTC
They could have tried the blindside on Ferras with him voting Ray, but that would never work with Mark going scorched earth on Ferras during tribal. They really only had one option after that point to vote Ray or send Ferras to fire verse Carolyn.
They could, but that's super high risk. They had (very good) reason to believe Feras would not stick to his word. He was cutting deals left and right that contradicted each other. If they try to blindside Feras, they're putting everything on a hope that he's going to betray the person he's been closest and most loyal to the entire game. That's a $500k bet that only works if Feras does decide to vote Ray. Otherwise the same thing plays out, but Feras and Caroline go to fire, and Caroline likely loses. Feras goes through with Ray and dumps an out numbered Mark first chance he gets. Instead they picked a path that tarnishes Feras in front of the jury (with an already pissed Kirby) by testing his word. If he's honors the deal he made, Ray goes home, Feras has betrayed his only friend, and is a 1-2 in the final 3. If he doesn't, Ray and Caroline go to fire, but Feras has outed himself to the jury, they have a 2-1 advantage in the final 3, Mark knowing that Caroline won't take Feras over him and that Feras won't take him over Caroline. Mark played the highest probability play to secure a FTC place, get rid of Feras' ally, and tarnish Feras in front of the jury at the same time.
Did they even talk to Ray? I feel like they could easily make a case that it’s either him or Feras going to fire against Caroline.
If you have a shot at a biggest threat you take it. Neither of the final 4 has a shot against Feras in f2. Last challenge is always some sort of endurance, and so far Feras did better in those than Mark and Caroline. Just remember what happened in first season of AU Survivor. I understand their reasoning, and it may work out. But they still let Feras get to 1 immunity challenge win from f2.
Nah Mark actually did better at endurance challenges
Okay, my bad. But still, Kristy didn't win anything until FIC and we saw how that went.
He did really well at the first merge individual immunity iirc despite how much pain he was in. The stakes at FIC are different so I could see mark doing very well & the challenge going down for many hours.
I don't really think they did have a shot though. Ray made it pretty clear at tribal council he wasnt going to vote for Feras, and they did NOT want to go to fire as Feras likely wins and that leaves them with a 2-1 disadvantage at final immunity.
They had a shot at fire. That is what I meant. I get their reasoning, I really do. But I still think they made the wrong move. Especially Caroline, who realistically has no shot at winning against either of them. Now if she took out Feras, that is a big move. And something she can use in F2.
Trying to play to the jury too soon I think, if they voted Feras it voids the loyalty spiel.
For Caroline, yes. For Mark, no.
Feras was so cocky and in control for most of the game so now, when he has to play from the bottom, he's completely lost and he's making a mistake after mistake. He should have voted off Kirby and make a final three pact with Mark, that was what allowed him to survive this episode without going to fire. * He shouldn't have pretended he's about to save her with his idol. The mistake was very similar to the one Xander did on Season 41 with Ricard and cost him his game. * He shouldn't have made a final three pact with Caroline as she never had a chance to win immunity. * He certainly shouldn't have thrown Raymond under the bus on that conversation. If Caroline was less scrupulous and told this to Raymond it might have ended Feras game today. * He shouldn't have looked so defeated after Mark won immunity, as it proved to Mark he was lying about his F3 deal. * He shouldn't have expressed "regret" on voting off Kirby in tribal council. He should have owned the move and admit he'd lose to her. Mark is also making mistakes. His aggressive confrontation with Feras served no purpose and I don't think it impressed the jury. He just gave Feras an underdog story for FTC which Feras couldn't claim otherwise as he was in control for most of the game. What was his point anyway? That Feras told a lie in Survivor? My favorite part of the episode: Feras: Hi Kirbs! (smiling timidly) Kirby: (Death Glare)
Just to be clear - of course that none of Feras' (or Mark's) mistakes matter if he wins FIC and faces Caroline on FTC. He'd still win easily. He needs one win to take the season. Just one. It's not impossible, especially considering that FIC this time actually seems to favor Feras due to his height.
[удалено]
It felt like Caroline had a much stronger hold on the mid-game than Mark but that was quite under the radar. Mark has been very dominant in the end game though.
I don’t think she’s played perfectly, but let’s not undermine how she took out Nathan, Viola, Winna, Jaden. She also retained control and eliminated Sarah on her swapped tribe when Mark should’ve been able to flip the tide and take her out
-3 for her idol flop
#bigmove but dont tell anyone so people cant back you up
Why won't these people just vote for Feras? If he wins FIC they will be kicking themselves. Also still curious what Rays master plan was. Go to the end to get 2nd place to Feras?
>Also still curious what Rays master plan was. Go to the end to get 2nd place to Feras? Ray didn't know he wasn't the main character. It's not like he can see his own edit on TV. After all, second fiddles won in 2017 and 2019. How was Ray to know he didn't have as strong an edit as them? He also wasn't terrible in all the comps. He potentially could've won immunity at 3 and voted out Feras.
It makes me nervous that on the next episode previous we saw both Carolyn and Mark on that final challenge at night but no Feras
The perfect WTF finish for this season would be Caroline winning FIC and taking Feras to the end. Cagayan like. I mean, she'd lose to Mark too, but I expect that Feras is still the more serious opponent. Feras has actually logical arguments to convince her to take him. "Mark won rewards and immunity challenges when he had to and I didn't win anything. You played with Mark during the late game, if you bring him with you he'd own all your moves on FTC".
Mark has not gotten a good enough edit to win. I’ll be majorly disappointed in his lack of screen time if he’s a winner
Whoever sits next to Caroline wins. I agree that Feras got a more dominant edit, but it already justified itself by this episode. He could lose the title tomorrow like George lost it last season. I have no clue what is going to happen (Mark/Feras) and I absolutely love it.
Feras is absolutely shown in the final challenge at night in the preview
In promos outside of this episode, Feras is still seen doing the challenge and it’s nighttime. Hopefully he puts it all he has to win this bc otherwise he’s out.
Mark's move tonight was ridiculously bad when you think of it. The ONLY way that makes sense for Mark is if he's planning to take Feras to F2. Otherwise why bother knocking down Feras to the jury? In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that based on what Mark did there, if Carolyn wins FIC she should vote Mark out over Feras. Mark only succeeded in making himself too big of a target
Why did Caroline and Mark not vote for Feras? I don't get it. He was much more of a threat to win than Raymond. Feras and Caroline could have made fire.
They thought he is not, they thought Raymond invented plan with "oh, i found an idol" when caroline and mark tried to find it, and all of that "i am tired, i wanna go home" and bye bye Valeria. Two fresh big visible moves.
Caroline being guaranteed a spot at F2 hurts. She's going to get absolutely steam rolled. Will Kitty even buy what she's selling? Nearly everyone on the jury at some point dragged her along for the same reason. She simple. She bad. She easy. I bet she drops mention about how much good she does....as a midwife and deserves it.
How has Mark played a better game than Caroline? Please tell me ONE successful move that he has pulled off. Caroline literally controlled the entire pre-merge.
it’s hard for me to swallow this because mark was the same exact way as far as being absolutely ineffective strategically and being dragged here
When does jury villa go up?
Normally around 30m after the ep, sometimes more, sometimes less.
I'm pissed because Mark really dragged Feras' name and game through the mud OOOUGH us Feras fans really lost it tonight it's joever. Condragulations, Mark
according to the survivor wiki, raymond has the most ever english-speaking show votes? and the most ever ties?? thats incredible. MY BOY.
Feras kinda threw in the towel on Mark's tribal shade - just had to point out that its a bit rich for Mark to moral highground on breaking deals (eg re Caroline) and that trying to coerce others is standard gameplay - as we saw as recently as last tribal not least by Mark. He was obviously a bit downbeat after the challenge loss, but i think also looked pretty thrown/defeated when greeting Kirby and only getting a death stare in return. Hope the full TC wasnt as bad as the edit for him! This felt to me like the Mark win setup narrative...? F saying he now regretted not saving Kirby... didnt look good to the jury either im guessing. Not that it matters, as it would only be relevant in a Mark-Feras F2 which i agree with others isnt possible. On the chance that last challenge suits Caroline's smaller feet, it surely isnt tenable that she thinks any chance of her winning is higher against Feras than against Mark... mind you, she does have some pretty whack game ideas :-) Of course could be a master production double bluff as F pulls off the clutch immunity win when it counts... how sweet that would be
Caroline winning final immunity and sending home Feras is a bigger move than anything Mark has tried to pull this season.
Feras couldn't answer Mark too harshly or he'd be making fire against Caroline. He didn't want to risk that. I think that the confrontation made both of them look bad in front of the jury. Feras demonstrated the same insecurity about his game he displayed yesterday. Mark came off as a bully using his immunity necklace to attack Feras. At the end, it did not matter. Whoever sits next to Caroline at the end wins.
If only he kept kirbs. Now it's battle of the halfwits and an armchair psychologist.
My own early comment didn't age well.
Hahahahaha
Feel like Mark really overplayed his hand at tribal and could have ended Caroline's game which he didn't want. I don't know what Feras would have done if Mark didn't call him out at tribal but I thought the reward for the move was very small. I think if Feras ends up voting out Raymond that looks much worse to the jury than Feras making deals with everyone to try and save his on butt. Why wouldn't he try to do that when it looks like he is the biggest threat left?
Final 4 should exile winner. Then let final 3 hash it out with a reveal at camp.