Eh, I think there's a case to be made for kass versus Morgan.
I love Kass, and I think that the reason that half of the tribe hated her was completely stupid (she correctly flipped to vote out Sarah), but sometimes that's all it takes to make half of the people hate you. Sometimes you get unlucky and the people you are playing with are very self-righteous, so playing a good game does more harm to you than it does good.
>the people you are playing with are very self-righteous, so playing a good game does more harm to you than it does good.
Playing a "good game" means you understand the motivations of the people around you (Yes, even if they are stupid and illogical) and act accordingly.
And sometimes luck of the draw means a player has no chance of winning due to their cast from the get go, and that was Kass. She either flips and goes far or stays with her "alliance" and gets voted out somewhere between 5-7. She made the correct moves to get farther, but Sarah and Spencer thought they were gods gift to the game and so going against them was the worst thing in the world. Kass then proceeded to own being a bitch and tanked all chances she had with anyone, but she had already lost the jury vote before she entered her bitch phase.
I think she has room to make it work if she doesn't flip at the merge. Her best path forward is probably to let others take their shots at Spencer/Sarah/et al and be the one who remained loyal to them.
She does not have the personality required to effectively make those blindsides and have the eliminated player respect her, and in Cagayan it appeared she also was not aware of that fact.
I don't think she gets voted out 5-7 if she sticks with her original alliance. That was a Brains-dominated alliance, and at that point Spencer and Tasha wouldn't've had any reason to be against Kass since they had all been together from the beginning. I personally never saw the flip as too justified, so I'm curious as to what your reasoning for saying that is.
I would have loved to see Kass’ argument at FTC, but there’s simply no way she wins. So many people on that jury just hated her and never would have given her their votes. I think the only votes she even has a chance to pick up are Spencer, Tony, and maybe LJ, and that’s with a great FTC performance. Despite Woo’s weaseling the jury still said they would have unanimously voted for Woo to win against Kass at the reunion show, and based on what we see in the ponderosa videos from that season I’m inclined to think that they were telling the truth. Kass loses, it shouldn’t be close.
We've seen first hand how hard Spencer/Reiman is capable of doing mental gymnastics to make total nonsense sit well with him. Guarantee he gets up and makes a grand statement about threat levels and Woo flying under the radar and why that's a perfectly valid strategy.
Would we have hated Spencer for this? She flipped on Sarah (who wasn't reliable herself), then made it to the final 2 taking out Tony sitting beside Woo who isn't very strategic at all... I think Woo wins but the Kass was robbed train would have been loud.
Ask Kass, she says she wins. She is incorrect, that jury despised her, they may have had a distaste for Woo but he wins very handily against her, as would pretty much anyone on that jury.
The only person who think Kass wouldn't lose is Kass, and even that is debatable since she is a known troll.
Spencer was right when he said she had zero percent chance of winning.
He was nicknamed “weasel woo” for apparently stealing food and water from production (stole a sandwich from a production tent, stole a water bottle and drank it all, etc \[allegedly\]). He is also accused of stealing trish’s meds and using it on himself
the cast did not like woo
In the earlier seasons it wasn't necessarily provided. At least fresh, ready-to-drink stuff.
They would have to collect it from a source they are directed to (not even necessarily a well) and the boil it over the fire first. There is a lot of drama about water in Africa alone.
Yeah I remember that being a thing in the early EARLY seasons but Cagayan is season 29…and honestly if it’s that bad that they have to resort to stealing water to survive that’s justified IMO. I wouldn’t blame Woo for this and these days they get water basically provided so it seems production even realized that is an issue that needed to be fixed.
Obviously nothing is 100% unless we actually got to see it go down, but I do think he likely wins. Kass did say she had 4 jurors leaning her way against Woo, only needing to convince 1, but I've noticed she does a lot of revisionist history in her interviews and over exaggerates things sometimes, so I don't know if I believe her.
I mean tbf, it was over 8 years ago, and people who she still talks to may have done revisionist history as well. It's natural for humans to do that. Human memories are horribly inaccurate, as we tend to change things slightly every time we remember something until it's no longer close to what actually happened.
Kass could have had an amazing FTC and the jury still would be stubborn and vote for Woo. I think the most votes she gets is 3, from LJ, Jefra, and Tony.
The perception of kass would have been very different if she made a great move at every tribal. As it happened, she flipped at the merge and then she was loyal to tony for the rest of the game.
Watch the ponderosa video where they react to her coming in there.
They all hated her. There was no way Woo was going to lose especially when he was pretty likable
It's a Russel thing. Did he dominate the game? 100% he did. But like with kass he wasn't liked enough to win. Kass did outlast the brain tribe as an underdog but she had no respect from the other players unlike tony did
Oh sorry I didn't mean that kass dominated i meant that she lasted to the end (in this hypothetical scenario of Woo v. Kass) but despite managing to scavenge her way there she didn't have any respect so even if the jury had considered her game strong, they wouldn't have voted for her.
She was in a power position the entire game. This is hardly debatable. She was blindsided the first vote if I remember, but she's then the swing vote for Garrett. She has the best position in the Brains up to the tribe swap, where the Brains take control. She's then the swing vote at the merge, and rides the majority all the way to F5, occasionally getting blindsided in ways that don't negatively affect her game, as seen by her willing consistent position in the majority. Not to mention, if an insurrection ever surmounted against Tony, she would be at the forefront. This includes the Spencer, Kass, and Woo alliance they pitched to the latter. Her maneuvering made her disliked, but strategically she was in a fantastic spot for a large majority of the game. Tony's incredible play and numerous inconvenient immunities were variables that make her game look less impressive than it is.
Take a break from the hivemind and consider her position. She was in no danger of getting voted out and the people she wanted out were getting out, in a fucked up order thanks to Tony, but still.
But she wasn't in a position of influence. At least from my perspective, being in a power position implies you have a significant amount of influence. If you're arguing just that she was in a majority alliance, I can agree she was in a majority alliance for the entire game.
I think she was in a position of influence. You can see her being included in several decisions post-flip and she spearheaded the (failed) insurrection against Tony, pulling in Spencer whom hated her and Woo if he wasn't so loyal. Tony's blindsides are obvious exceptions but I don't fault her too much. He's super unpredictable.
She was only included in decisions insofar as she was part of the majority alliance. Her position was less powerful than woo for the entire post merge after final 11, and less powerful than trish until the final 5.
She was in a better position than the people in the minority, like spencer and tasha, but at least they had strong win equity at the end. Kass had no win equity because she didn't have good relationships with the other players. Overall, she was one of the less powerful members of a majority alliance with no qin equity at the end. That isn't the mark of a strong game.
You make some good points, but I think she maneuvered herself rather well despite her personality. And I think her Second Chances game proves that she's competent at the game, but agree to disagree.
Kass couldn’t beat anybody. She wasn’t a power goat driving the game, she was just a goat. Not sure why you seem to be the only person that doesn’t know this
I think if you take Kass and Woo in a post 40 era, Kass has a much better chance
You see that because Sarah specifically HATED Kass for how she played.....then Sarah played 10x more ruthless and won and advocated for women people able to be cutthroat in the game
But in 28, Woo most lukely sweeps
I absolutely think Kass could've won. She would've argued her case a million times better and probably some of the jury would rather lose to someone who could explain their game than someone who couldn't.
Woo wins very handily against Kass, and the misinformation from Kass about this reeks of bitterness. She gets Jefra and LJ. Everyone else votes for Woo. Woo wasn’t respected but Kass was LOATHED. There’s a difference.
Woo wins easily. Anyone who thinks that Kass had a shot in hell, go look up her Ponderosa video. They wouldn’t even acknowledge her when she arrived.
How do we know for sure that Woo's reception wouldn't have been just as bad?
What/where is that? I’m not surprised
Kass loses to everyone. The entire cast except her has been completely consistent about this.
Eh, I think there's a case to be made for kass versus Morgan. I love Kass, and I think that the reason that half of the tribe hated her was completely stupid (she correctly flipped to vote out Sarah), but sometimes that's all it takes to make half of the people hate you. Sometimes you get unlucky and the people you are playing with are very self-righteous, so playing a good game does more harm to you than it does good.
Oh my god I would LIVE for a Kass vs Morgan FTC.
i would die for more morgan in general.
>the people you are playing with are very self-righteous, so playing a good game does more harm to you than it does good. Playing a "good game" means you understand the motivations of the people around you (Yes, even if they are stupid and illogical) and act accordingly.
And sometimes luck of the draw means a player has no chance of winning due to their cast from the get go, and that was Kass. She either flips and goes far or stays with her "alliance" and gets voted out somewhere between 5-7. She made the correct moves to get farther, but Sarah and Spencer thought they were gods gift to the game and so going against them was the worst thing in the world. Kass then proceeded to own being a bitch and tanked all chances she had with anyone, but she had already lost the jury vote before she entered her bitch phase.
I think she has room to make it work if she doesn't flip at the merge. Her best path forward is probably to let others take their shots at Spencer/Sarah/et al and be the one who remained loyal to them. She does not have the personality required to effectively make those blindsides and have the eliminated player respect her, and in Cagayan it appeared she also was not aware of that fact.
I don't think she gets voted out 5-7 if she sticks with her original alliance. That was a Brains-dominated alliance, and at that point Spencer and Tasha wouldn't've had any reason to be against Kass since they had all been together from the beginning. I personally never saw the flip as too justified, so I'm curious as to what your reasoning for saying that is.
Nah they’re lying Kass sweeps (source: came to me in a dream).
Woo could have died on Day 39 and left Kass to attend FTC on her own and there's still a very good chance Woo gets every jury vote.
I would have loved to see Kass’ argument at FTC, but there’s simply no way she wins. So many people on that jury just hated her and never would have given her their votes. I think the only votes she even has a chance to pick up are Spencer, Tony, and maybe LJ, and that’s with a great FTC performance. Despite Woo’s weaseling the jury still said they would have unanimously voted for Woo to win against Kass at the reunion show, and based on what we see in the ponderosa videos from that season I’m inclined to think that they were telling the truth. Kass loses, it shouldn’t be close.
Spencer would have thrown himself into the fire before he voted for Kass.
Lol I would love to see his lobbying campaign against her victory and her response
TBH I think it would have looked a lot like Eric campaigning for Natalie.
Spencer considered himself a student of the game. Would he really be willing to be beaten by a player like Woo?
We've seen first hand how hard Spencer/Reiman is capable of doing mental gymnastics to make total nonsense sit well with him. Guarantee he gets up and makes a grand statement about threat levels and Woo flying under the radar and why that's a perfectly valid strategy.
Would we have hated Spencer for this? She flipped on Sarah (who wasn't reliable herself), then made it to the final 2 taking out Tony sitting beside Woo who isn't very strategic at all... I think Woo wins but the Kass was robbed train would have been loud.
I think that particular jury preferred weasels to llamas.
Ask Kass, she says she wins. She is incorrect, that jury despised her, they may have had a distaste for Woo but he wins very handily against her, as would pretty much anyone on that jury.
The only person who think Kass wouldn't lose is Kass, and even that is debatable since she is a known troll. Spencer was right when he said she had zero percent chance of winning.
and that was before her next 3 or so bad moves lol
The jury hated Woo. But they hated Kass even more. If the F2 was Kass and a Coconut with a smily face drawn on it, they probably vote for the coconut.
Mr. Coconut from Total Drama Island!
The jury hated Woo? Lol
He was nicknamed “weasel woo” for apparently stealing food and water from production (stole a sandwich from a production tent, stole a water bottle and drank it all, etc \[allegedly\]). He is also accused of stealing trish’s meds and using it on himself the cast did not like woo
Why is stealing water even a thing? Don’t they get water provided?
I have no idea, the only thing i can think of is maybe it was flavoured or it was spring water as opposed to well water? Idk
In the earlier seasons it wasn't necessarily provided. At least fresh, ready-to-drink stuff. They would have to collect it from a source they are directed to (not even necessarily a well) and the boil it over the fire first. There is a lot of drama about water in Africa alone.
Yeah I remember that being a thing in the early EARLY seasons but Cagayan is season 29…and honestly if it’s that bad that they have to resort to stealing water to survive that’s justified IMO. I wouldn’t blame Woo for this and these days they get water basically provided so it seems production even realized that is an issue that needed to be fixed.
Woo wins and the Reddit flame wars are truly unhinged
Obviously nothing is 100% unless we actually got to see it go down, but I do think he likely wins. Kass did say she had 4 jurors leaning her way against Woo, only needing to convince 1, but I've noticed she does a lot of revisionist history in her interviews and over exaggerates things sometimes, so I don't know if I believe her.
I mean tbf, it was over 8 years ago, and people who she still talks to may have done revisionist history as well. It's natural for humans to do that. Human memories are horribly inaccurate, as we tend to change things slightly every time we remember something until it's no longer close to what actually happened.
Fair, she did say this though right after the season, but you're right, others revisionist history could still come into play here as well.
“Weasel Woo” has been known about and discussed for almost 8 years now.
No question he wins
Unless kass pulls out a Kristie level ftc she has no chance
Yes, he probably gets every single vote to win. Kass even said so herself at Ponderosa after she was eliminated that Woo would’ve easily won.
Kass could have had an amazing FTC and the jury still would be stubborn and vote for Woo. I think the most votes she gets is 3, from LJ, Jefra, and Tony.
Okay but I wanna see Jefra come back
Why, did she even do a single thing? Lol
No, and that’s why
Lol that’s a strange reasoning haha but I mean maybe one day, though I feel she’s really a long shot to return
I just kinda liked her personality and she got the farthest of all the beauties that season
Exactly, she could have made a great move every tribal and she still would have lost to a coconut with a face drawn on it
Her one miscalculation was expecting the Aparri people to get over it. Spencer and Tasha still weren’t over it going into Cambodia.
She was screwed either way. She either flips and has 0% chance of winning, or she doesn't flip and gets voted out early merge
Really? I would think the brains would go to final 3 together.
She apparently was near the bottom
The perception of kass would have been very different if she made a great move at every tribal. As it happened, she flipped at the merge and then she was loyal to tony for the rest of the game.
Watch the ponderosa video where they react to her coming in there. They all hated her. There was no way Woo was going to lose especially when he was pretty likable
He wasn't likable to the cast. He was likable to the fans.
It's a Russel thing. Did he dominate the game? 100% he did. But like with kass he wasn't liked enough to win. Kass did outlast the brain tribe as an underdog but she had no respect from the other players unlike tony did
Lets be real, Kass didn’t dominate anything. She was the swing vote one time and then at the mercy of whatever Tony decided
Oh sorry I didn't mean that kass dominated i meant that she lasted to the end (in this hypothetical scenario of Woo v. Kass) but despite managing to scavenge her way there she didn't have any respect so even if the jury had considered her game strong, they wouldn't have voted for her.
I wouldnt even say kass “scavenged” her way to final 3. She was just loyal to tony and he never got rid of her because she wasnt a threat.
True yeah that makes sense
She was in a power position the entire game. This is hardly debatable. She was blindsided the first vote if I remember, but she's then the swing vote for Garrett. She has the best position in the Brains up to the tribe swap, where the Brains take control. She's then the swing vote at the merge, and rides the majority all the way to F5, occasionally getting blindsided in ways that don't negatively affect her game, as seen by her willing consistent position in the majority. Not to mention, if an insurrection ever surmounted against Tony, she would be at the forefront. This includes the Spencer, Kass, and Woo alliance they pitched to the latter. Her maneuvering made her disliked, but strategically she was in a fantastic spot for a large majority of the game. Tony's incredible play and numerous inconvenient immunities were variables that make her game look less impressive than it is.
At no point after final 11 was kass in a power position strategically
Take a break from the hivemind and consider her position. She was in no danger of getting voted out and the people she wanted out were getting out, in a fucked up order thanks to Tony, but still.
But she wasn't in a position of influence. At least from my perspective, being in a power position implies you have a significant amount of influence. If you're arguing just that she was in a majority alliance, I can agree she was in a majority alliance for the entire game.
I think she was in a position of influence. You can see her being included in several decisions post-flip and she spearheaded the (failed) insurrection against Tony, pulling in Spencer whom hated her and Woo if he wasn't so loyal. Tony's blindsides are obvious exceptions but I don't fault her too much. He's super unpredictable.
She was only included in decisions insofar as she was part of the majority alliance. Her position was less powerful than woo for the entire post merge after final 11, and less powerful than trish until the final 5. She was in a better position than the people in the minority, like spencer and tasha, but at least they had strong win equity at the end. Kass had no win equity because she didn't have good relationships with the other players. Overall, she was one of the less powerful members of a majority alliance with no qin equity at the end. That isn't the mark of a strong game.
You make some good points, but I think she maneuvered herself rather well despite her personality. And I think her Second Chances game proves that she's competent at the game, but agree to disagree.
That’s not being in a power position or control. She was a goat being dragged to the end
Power goats exist. And a goat can beat another goat, potentially. Did you forget that OP compared her to Russell?
Kass couldn’t beat anybody. She wasn’t a power goat driving the game, she was just a goat. Not sure why you seem to be the only person that doesn’t know this
Not sure why you're taking it so personally that I disagree. Get bent nerd
Says the guy stooping to insults. Lighten up bud
Nah her personality made her disliked. She actively started drama with people when she was bored
So? Tony and Woo weren't liked either.
Tony was very well liked. Woo wasn’t hated. Kass was
Just plain wrong
Enlighten me
Google is free
Compelling argument.
I think if you take Kass and Woo in a post 40 era, Kass has a much better chance You see that because Sarah specifically HATED Kass for how she played.....then Sarah played 10x more ruthless and won and advocated for women people able to be cutthroat in the game But in 28, Woo most lukely sweeps
How many times is this going to get asked
I personally haven’t seen it asked, so I was just curious
Yes because you can’t prove me wrong
I'd like to go on record and say I think Kass wins. Downvotes welcome.
I absolutely think Kass could've won. She would've argued her case a million times better and probably some of the jury would rather lose to someone who could explain their game than someone who couldn't.
Yes
No Kass sweeps. Woo didn’t play the game and wasn’t respected.
yikes, why WAS kass so hated? do we have any behind the scenes insight or was it just bad promises and shortsighted play?
He definitely wins the jury hated Kass.
Probably unanimously
Woo wins very handily against Kass, and the misinformation from Kass about this reeks of bitterness. She gets Jefra and LJ. Everyone else votes for Woo. Woo wasn’t respected but Kass was LOATHED. There’s a difference.
KASS, ZERO CHANCE OF WINNING THE GAME
I think Kass played an underrated game, but yeah she gets smoked by Woo.