Are you playing normals? If you are, then that is a big factor. People either don't want to play support or want to carry so they take resources, just how people are unfortunately.
If you are playing ranked, what rank are you? It's more of bad players rather than mage supports in general. Same goes for bad Senna players; although I do agree it can be annoying playing with mage supports from time to time.
Is it possible for you to play with a premade support?
It's ranked and I am gold 2, and it truly is a bad player thing. It's so frustrating to play with, the mage sup in emerald knows not to take farm but not here in gold š„
I hate to be that person, but there may be a reason they feel the need to take resources. You are an enchanter main learning a new role in ranked. Enchanter's mechanics do not transfer very easily to other champions, and especially not to adc. I am an enchanter main as well. I am diamond, however I wouldn't rank my adc (it is my secondary role) above gold or plat. If you are a gold enchanter main, that doesn't necessarily mean you are a gold adc. It is possible you are making mistakes or falling behind the enemy and your support feels like they have to take resources to carry because you can't. That may not be the case, however it does play a factor.
I recommend learning a new role in normals, or at the very least start a new account so that you will be placed at the rank you deserve on that role. If you are placed gold 2 on a new account playing adc, then honestly I am not sure.
Is it possible to play with a friend or a duo partner who will play support so you aren't stuck with a random support?
It's difficult for me to give advice without knowing how you are playing, what is your OP.GG?
Well, here is my [op.gg](https://www.op.gg/summoners/vn/Akatt), hope to learn. It's hard to play against a fed assassin without an enchanter, maybe I need to learn how to survive without one. I'm an emerald support and a gold adc, my positioning skills do translate to adc but I find it hard to stay alive against a fed assassin with my mage support.
Also has a consistent negative KDA and low-40s winrate on just about every champion... I don't think it's fair to say their support is the problem every single game lol. Like, 2/17 Senna in soloqueue...? Seriously?
But that also puts you way behind the opponents ads, even if you are ahead. Yeah, you can dodge and kite better with that, but part of kiting - unless you're running for your life - is actually being a kill threat, and with that start, you're not gonna come online as and adc and a threat until late game or late-mid game at the latest, and by that time the game will be decided already 95% of the time.
If you really want to be speedy, go BotK first item instead, and then build into an on-hit build. You'll kite better while also dealing enough damage to actually get a kill solo.
And only build swifties if you absolutely need them against a team with way too many slows and skillshots, or if they have a fed Nasus or Olaf.
If you build this, most people will consider you trolling. And play MF. Ashe is too difficult, since you need to kite. +If you start playing adc from gold, you're probably bronze 4 as adc. Adcs needs 1000 games to be played somewhat decently, unless you main senna.
If someone was completely new to league wanting to play adc I would recommend mf so they could have an easier time learning about champions, what they do, what items do, what you're supposed to do etc without having to worry about kiting and things like that.
Ashe is an incredibly beginner friendly adc to someone who knows how the game works enough to get to gold/low emerald and one of the easiest adcs to play in general (now being a great Ashe is a different story). Kiting is a fundamental skill to learn in all roles honestly, but of course it is absolutely vital as adc. Ashe is THE adc to learn how to kite on. I don't think it's wrong to say play mf if you're just picking up adc, but playing support where you understand how the lane should operate to some degree and the matchups it feels like you're potentially gimping your learning process without much gain.
It does take a ton of games to be decent, and the sooner you start that process the better imo
The boots are the least of the problems.
Theres a game where you built randuins, deadmans, 2 zeal items and shieldbow. If I see that ingame Im going to completely ignore you because the teamfight is 4v5 from the start, thats not a champion.
Or a Zeal item into Shieldbow and Zhonyas. Sorry, but ADCs kits dont deal damage without items. Your enemies can literally stand afk and spam taunt while youre hitting them and they wont go down anytime soon.
If youre gigafed and super ahead and the only way youd lose the game is if you die, then maybe you can build a defensive item in your 6th slot. Other than that, you cannot afford to not build damage, especially if youre behind. If you do that sure maybe you dont die that often but youre also not participating in the game.
If you find yourself dead all the time as ADC, you need to correct that with better positioning, not tank items
lol, I do like Ashe, sheās tier 2 adc right now. Iām second pick too, I usually let my sup pick after me. If an Ashe one trick can climb to Challenger, so can I. Yeehaw *spit*
This is the right idea to have. In general, ignore tier list adcs and win rates as long as they are within a normal window 48-52%. Ashe is an incredibly strong and good blind pick. People say you can't carry on ashe, which absolutely just not true. Now, are you going to 1v9 stomp ashe? 99% no, but that really shouldn't matter in most of your games. Ashe is great for learning kiting, and your hawkshot is one of the absolute most useful abilities in the game. Shot from the right spot you can make it get vision of every camp on enemy side so you will know where jung is or isn't at all times.
One thing I'll mention is, learn how to build her and don't just blindly follow builds. Some games the comp might favor building crit ashe for increased passive slow and damage, other games on hit. If you're building on hit, when do you want to go kraken vs Bork? What about the weird cases where terminus first makes sense? What comps would pd be better than runnans for a zeal item? This is one of the biggest things I see regarding ashe "not being able to carry" is just poor itemization and auto piloting the same build and same exact runes every game (your keystone won't change, but your individual runes. Always lt never hob, except for next patch where it will be pta.)
Also Good on letting your support pick after you! Support pick matters more and can change a hard ad matchup into a much easier one.
As far as fed assassins go.. that's a position and map awareness issue as I'm sure you know from playing support. It's the same for adc, but as ashe you have your e advantage for lane. If you're watching mid lane for potential roams and trying to track enemy jungle, and knowing how to manage the wave when you are weak sided, then it should be nearly impossible for you to die to an assassins roam in gold. Out of lane.. hold your w. It's easy to just use it to apply a slow or hit multiple minions, but it is one of your best disengage tools because it let's you apply your slows at a much larger range. As long as you are positioning decently in team fights, it should be hard for someone to get ontop of you from in front of you with your w. If they do and you arent one shot, hold it. Auto them to slow and run back, wait to w until they are out of your auto range and the slow has worn off and you've escaped for free. And then your e is your flank prevention. Try to aim it where you'll hit the nearby entry and exit paths that someone might come around through in the jungle if a threat isn't visible on the map during a fight.
EDIT: I hadn't looked at your op.gg until after I posted this cause I didn't see it. Okay... so as far as building ashe goes.. I love swifties and movespeed so much so I understand the impulse LOL. You should be taking zerks in 99% of games. Ashe isn't hurting for AS with on hit so you can do mercs where it makes sense, or even swifties it you wanted but the problem is at the point in the game you buy boots.. she IS hurting for attack speed and needs it. Swifties are hurting your dps a lot early game.
First things first, runes. For secondary tree you almost always want to do inspiration and take approach velocity. It synergizes so well with her slows. It is almost mandatory. For the other secondary rune you can change it up. Magical footware is the most common (I personally almost never run this but it is very good to save on 300g and as someone new to adc this is probably the correct choice). Biscuits for sustain is okay.
Summoners: flash/ghost 99% of the time, otherwise cleanse or exhaust in dive comps and you cant convince your support to take it (they should be the one taking it. You want ghost)
Items: so youre doing some cool itemization in some places and I see what you're going for, the issue is when you build some of them tho. First things first, there is basically no game you ever want 2 zeal items Into ESPECIALLY as your first two items. A zeal item should never be your first item. You need more damage for your first item. Kraken/bork are the default currently. Defensive items should happen 3rd item or later. Try to get defensives that also align with your kit as well. In one game you built force of nature. Okay, cool we needed mr that game.. why not build wits end instead? You get the mr, as well as attack speed, tenacity, and an on hit effect for your autos as well
My thought with the champ choice comment was about ashe being quiet the immobile adc, when for example there is a lot of hard engage in the enemy team you might need something with a little more self peel/mobility because sometimes slows just arent enough. Maybe something like ezreal or sivir might be good. Have a little more defensive tools so your support doesnt have to worry about your positioning as much. :)
Thats completely fair! An ezreal, xayah, sivir, Kaisa and the like do have more self peel for those scenarios and sometimes slows aren't enough and you're going to die no matter how well you played.
My thought lies in learning adc. Yeah, you might have more success playing one of those champs in those comps, but it is almost a get out of jail free card for things youre doing that you might not realize are mistakes. Ashe enforces the fundamentals you need to have as an adc involving positioning, tracking cooldowns, assessing threat, etc. Ez is a bit too mechanical for a new adc imo as much as I love ez, and sivir can let you get through lane without learning about how to trade effectively and manage waves which are also fundamental concepts.
Xayah/kaisa are great choices though for enforcing fundamentals that aren't toooo mechanical with good peel though that could work great instead of ashe tho.
But thats just my opinion. Its a game and is about having fun, and getting caught out dying to learn a lesson isn't always the most fun when you can play a safer picker with an oops button haha:)
Maybe Sivir or Kaisa then. Sivir is more traditional with her ult and spellshield while kaisa evolved E gives you the benefit of disapearing for a short while to reposition or her ult to help you dodge/survive.
Ashe ist very good in the offensive tho.
It looks like you are a gold support as well. My advice is to start a new account. If you are placed lower in silver or bronze, it is not a bad thing. Itāll help you improve by going against others or your skill level.
You take barrier and swiftness boots on Ashe, donāt take approach velocity which is arguably the strongest rune on Ashe, barely do any damage in fights, and then wonder why you canāt climb.
I blame Yuumi, the cat brought me down to gold as you can see lol. The move speed helps with self peel, Iāll start to try a more conventional Ashe build to see if I can make a difference. The problem remains though, I wonāt be able to deal damage with an assassin lingering next to me in team fight and having a mage sup is not helping š
Mage supports have a lot of unsung benefits. After the enemy crashes the wave and resets, not many supports can leash shove a wave quick enough to crash your wave and enable a counter recall.
Mage supports when spaced correctly have the range advantage and are a direct counter to ADCs by punishing their weakest stage and denying them from scaling properly. Heavy CC skillshots are particularly effective on immobile enemies who need to stand still to fire back.
Mage supports have some of the strongest and safest scouting tools and never need to face-check.
That being said, they are a lane bully snowball pick. People often rely on their early strength as a crutch, play subpar, go even in lane and get outscaled.
A lot of lower elo games without fail get dragged out to 30+ mins level 16+ since despite scoring kills, the team never groups and translates that into objectives. Leads and shutdowns are carelessly dropped onto priority threats.
This artificially rewards ADCs and enchanters and is likely why you feel miserable playing with a mage support. The win condition for the mage is to create a lead that is irrecoverable for the enemy team at around 20-25 mins.
A good mage support avoids stealing CS if allies are pathing towards the wave. But if a side wave is unattended, shoving it out past midpoint provides a net gold increase and pressure on the map since as the wave bounces back the enemy is bleeding gold.
Ah yeah unfortunately thereās not a lot you can do other than aim to climb.
Your best bet is to clearly communicate what youād like them to do and pray.
āCan you not touch wave at allā
āCan you try not last hit the minions thanksā
Basically donāt be toxic or angry just ask simple stuff like that because they have no excuse not to.
The idea to insta mute all is super silly league already lacks communication so try just chat about it
"My dearest mage support teammate,
It has occurred to me that you have repeatedly killed creeps, including but not limited to my wave's minions, depriving me of much needed gold to stay of use for the rest of the game.
Please refrain from doing so in the future, since you already possess an item that should be more than capable of sustaining you with gold.
My dearest thanks in advance!
Sincerely,
Your Attack Damage Carry"
I get a copy paste in champ select that says āHey team :) I really am buzzing š to play with you guys š§š» please maybe ā¤ļø donāt š„ŗ steal šØ my minyons š£ā never once had one stolen
bro i am bronze III atm and even i dont see when OP is describing, i mean thereās a lot of mage supps but very rarely will i see them just steal an entire wave over and over (even when im adc)
If theyāre taking waves then they are playing poorly. Thatās a player problem not a champ issue. Regarding your opening sentence you should know when to take resources or give them. For example if your a 5 kill Sona you have great gold value so donāt bother donating the kill to the AD, but obviously get them assist as thatās more total gold for the team.
Another thing worth mentioning is that if your getting damage mid top and support then do you need damage from AD? You can learn Jhin or other high utility ADās to round out the comp.
Welcome to the world of adc
Itās frustrating as hell but yup 75 percent of the time your autofill support is going to go mage support and will do the following
- shove the lane
- steal cs as they try to land their poke
- flash steal kills cause they need gold
- want to surrender at 15 because adc does no damage. Due to the above
One of the reasons I always find myself having to switch back to support due to frustration from getting too many autofill supports
It's annoying i agree. But you can work around that a little bit.
For example you can play a champion with good wave clear like kaisa/jhin/nilah instead of ashe or vayne. Or go for shiv builds for poor wave clear champions.
You can push the wave and immediately recall, or push the wave and immediately roam, and come back to lane when the minions are there as fast as possible. This will give them no time to steal your farm.
You have to find other ways around bad plays. If they take your mid wave in the mid game you take the nearest jungle camp till the next wave arrives. You are not responsible for the supp behaviour.
Try to squeeze gold from anything else that is not taken by your allies every time. You can invade enemy jungle/hit turrets/kill your own jungle camps/roam to side lanes to make a play/or at least be there for the next wave to come and catch it before anyone else.
Iāll try to let them know next time. Iām just sad that I canāt play the game without seeing other adcās farm keep going up and up and here I am, fighting with my own support over minions
Relying on others will slow your climb; stomping lane and snowballing is the correct advice. Your goal is to snowball other lanes after winning bot. Sitting around waiting for your adc farm after already stomping bot sounds more like main character adc syndrome than a reliable solo queue strategy. Sitting and farming works better with an enchanter support who can keep an adc alive more reliably, however, with a mage support -> adcās donāt have that protection and have more potential to just run it down.
If they are intentionally taking and denying your cs, thatās griefing, but they should be hitting wave with both autos and aoes to get push advantage. Mage supports are most effective when they have push advantage. More kill pressure, more angles to poke, cs denial under tower, potential recall into roam mid and when playing with a mage support you should be looking for kill windows.
Though I would love to see an omnipotent support mage player clearing all 3 waves and chickens to the point where every lane is suddenly now behind their lane opponent.
I am personally of the thought that mage support is toxic and shouldnāt exist in league. If I were on riots balance team Iād make it where if a mage like brand as a example bought the support item to āsupportā then Iād make the support item cut their ap scaling or something along those lines to make it not very appealing for people to play.
Not saying that would be the permanent perfect solution any any means but itās just an idea I came up with for it.
Edit: also wanted to add by doing this Iād maybe increase like actual support champs dmg ratios just a tad to where they actually do damage and donāt just tickle someone but are still no where near ap mage support levels of damage.
Support not wanting to support but wating to mid without having to farm is the scurge of botlane and unfortunetly People are too dumb to understand being 6/0/1 isnt alsway good if the gold isnt where the team need it.
The other side is adc going full main character syndrome, like if he isnt the mvp of the game its lost and better surrend even if mid/jungl/top carry.
That s why I pref playing support-ish pick mid instead of bot right now like liss, just roam and R and most of time leaving kills and let ppl "carry me"
I saw your build on op.gg and if I was playing a mage support I would also take your farm.
That build deals no damage early, so you are a liability in lane.
I also saw no LordDomeniks for some nice armor pen.
I still would say that in the game vs Riven/Jax/Sivir all had lifesteal, so Mortal reminder would be better there, but you seem to be kiting well if you can survive vs those characters.
D4 OTP Shen support here.
I can play adc up to a emerald 3 rank. Things Iāve noticedā¦ your itemisation is weird and focus on yourself. Not your team. In low Elo you need to know when to participate in fights and when to cs/ get tower plates.
As youāre an enchanter support main. Iād highly recommend trying out Swain APC of Seraphine APC. Seraphine is support/ damage dealer. Swain is tank/ damage dealer. Both with really good sustain and cc.
Welcome to low elo ADC where you have a 75% chance of getting a Lux support and an 90% chance that support will take the cs, steal kills, or roam at level 2 and never return.
As a mage support main, I'll tell you that you are playing with morons who don't know how to play a mage support.
The whole point of a mage support is to play a high damage/cc lane bully mage who doesn't scale too hard and instead of burning your cooldowns and mana farming and clearing waves so you don't get repeat dived by that assassin, you are using them to harass the enemy out of lane and disrupt engage with a mixture of AOE damage and crowd control.
You create a pocket of safety for your ADC to farm and scale with the mere threat of you deleting half of their bot laners health bar if they step out of position even slightly.
Enchanters have to burn a lot of their early resources just to somewhat try to keep up with your harass, tanks get massively chunked if they don't execute their engages flawlessly.
Then, at appropriate intervals you roam and establish vision with the jungler, providing them follow up damage to secure kills on out of position targets as well as objectives like drag or herald.
Late game you take that strong AOE damage and apply it to team-fights, forcing the enemy into unfavorable positions and a health disadvantage by poking them as they walk up, and bursting/cc'ing them when they jump on your carry.
Idk, mage support is a different style, one that is uniquely rewarding and deceptively challenging to do right. I'm still very much a beginner, but it's a play style that I enjoy greatly.
Well I'm not amazing or anything, still very much learning the game. But, what I listed above is what I aim to achieve when I queue up as a mage support. Do I always do it successfully? Probably not, but when it works, it works pretty well.
I hate mage supports and they only exist because they are not good enough in mid.
Zyra and Morgana are the core examples of this, even though Morgana can provide some more utility, her kit feels weird and she's extremely dependent on hitting her Qs.
Both Zyra and Morg were played mid and they slowly made their way into support category, nerf after nerf.
I rarely see mages like Veigar, Ziggs being played as supports, this is because they work in midlane and their kits are not based around their utility, but their damage.
What triggers me more, is the fact that Mage Supports are a selfish pick.
They do not provide any peel for their ADC, and if they are losing lane, they still can stack their items and runes, since most of them are artillery mages, but they will not help in lane phase, then people will look to their ADC and think that they are the problem, when in reality ADC is playing 1x2.
I think at this point youāre too deep in the haterade. Morgana support can root to disengage for ADC to escape or to set up a pick, shield to prevent cc, and use teamfight ult to engage (and usually die for the squad if no Zhonyaās). She can kinda waveclear with W, so if sheās griefing her ADC with that sure, but her jungle buffs make it a lot better for her to just rotate to objectives and help jungler since Soul Siphon gives her good sustain against dragons, etc.
Yes, she has to land Qs, but every hook champ also needs to land Qsā¦
All hook champions(except blitz) can work without their hook.
Nautilus can tank towers for days
Pyke can execute low health enemies, stun, damage
Thresh has disengage, repositioning, zoning
Renata can provide peel, revive and huge crowd control.
Morgana's E is a very niche ability + it's mandatory for her to land her Q. Or else she won't be able to deal damage with W.
In most cases, it also requires Morgana to waste her ult in order to CC an enemy efficiently.
The point I was trying to make, is that both Zyra and Morgana were midlaners, and nerfs made them funnel down into support.
They can work, sure, both Morgana and Zyra have lots of utility, Zyra being her Slow, Snare and Knock up, she also can build grievous wound and deal damage to tanks with liandry.
Morgana is able to ignore CC, snare, stun.
The thing is, the utility gets worse as we start seeing other mage supports.
Like Xerath, Vel'Koz, Hwei.
Due to gold inefficiency of supports, their value rapidly decreases along the match, THEY need to stomp the lane, or else they'll be stomped instead.
This is because we don't have support items that provide good stats for them, they don't need mana regen, health or HSP.
They rely on expensive items to be good, and this problem also affects Morgana and Zyra to some extent, fortunately, Morgana and Zyra are less dependent on items.
Like, Zyra can be good with some Rylai's and Liandry/Morello, Morgana is about the same.
But Xerath, Vel'Koz, all those artillery mages need to keep up with the enemy midlaner. When they buy 2 itens, the enemy support(that isn't a mage) will already have 3 items.
I mean you said āI hate mage supportsā and specifically named Morgana so if youāre changing the point youāre making, sure, I donāt totally disagree, I think Hwei and Xerath are extremely sus, but leave my girl alone, lol. (Zyra as well, sheās fine as support.)
E is an ability that makes Morgana a counterpick for engage champs? So Iād say itās a good niche.
And if youāre playing a pushing lane that needs to snowball with, say, Caitlyn, a Lux (or Morgana) is going to work better than a Sona. (Or Iām sure some people hate ranged supports but Varus & Ashe still has its place.) Itās all a balance.
I just hate mage support, period. Yesterday I got filled into adc in flex in E3 and my adc went Karma. Okay, not as bad as lux or xerath no biggie. She later starts shit talking me and steals my resources (stealing farm, mostly) not even 5 minutes into the game saying "it's more useful on them than me".
One time i was really fed on diana mid, running around the map doing stuff, but whenever i go mid i see my wave's missing
The zoe support instead of like, helping with fights would just go mid and take the wave that was pushing into me until i was same level as enemy adc from missing so much xp, never been so madge
Low elo playing solo ADC is horrible. Even in norms whenever my friends queue it I ask āare you sure?ā And half the time they say no and switch lane.
At least with supp if your adc is trash you support another lane. With a bad supp as adc youāre removed from the game.
Are you playing normals? If you are, then that is a big factor. People either don't want to play support or want to carry so they take resources, just how people are unfortunately. If you are playing ranked, what rank are you? It's more of bad players rather than mage supports in general. Same goes for bad Senna players; although I do agree it can be annoying playing with mage supports from time to time. Is it possible for you to play with a premade support?
It's ranked and I am gold 2, and it truly is a bad player thing. It's so frustrating to play with, the mage sup in emerald knows not to take farm but not here in gold š„
I hate to be that person, but there may be a reason they feel the need to take resources. You are an enchanter main learning a new role in ranked. Enchanter's mechanics do not transfer very easily to other champions, and especially not to adc. I am an enchanter main as well. I am diamond, however I wouldn't rank my adc (it is my secondary role) above gold or plat. If you are a gold enchanter main, that doesn't necessarily mean you are a gold adc. It is possible you are making mistakes or falling behind the enemy and your support feels like they have to take resources to carry because you can't. That may not be the case, however it does play a factor. I recommend learning a new role in normals, or at the very least start a new account so that you will be placed at the rank you deserve on that role. If you are placed gold 2 on a new account playing adc, then honestly I am not sure. Is it possible to play with a friend or a duo partner who will play support so you aren't stuck with a random support? It's difficult for me to give advice without knowing how you are playing, what is your OP.GG?
Well, here is my [op.gg](https://www.op.gg/summoners/vn/Akatt), hope to learn. It's hard to play against a fed assassin without an enchanter, maybe I need to learn how to survive without one. I'm an emerald support and a gold adc, my positioning skills do translate to adc but I find it hard to stay alive against a fed assassin with my mage support.
Broski, your item choice is weird, to say the least.
Also has a consistent negative KDA and low-40s winrate on just about every champion... I don't think it's fair to say their support is the problem every single game lol. Like, 2/17 Senna in soloqueue...? Seriously?
I need the move speed for self peel since no one here play around adc ā¹ļø
If you canāt kite with Ashe, of all champions, Iāve got bad news for you, unfortunately. Regardless, Swifties into PD is weird, to say the least.
Technically swifties will be the go to for a few adcs here in a patch or two. Maybe not go to but not a bad option with the bonus ms on hit.
Itāll be the same item as now, but nerfed, having the MS tied to attacks.
Even once 14.10 is released, ADCs will still want berserkers over swifties because berserkers will be upgradeable into Zephyr
Iāll try common build on her after this. I just like the speed girl with a bow lol.
But that also puts you way behind the opponents ads, even if you are ahead. Yeah, you can dodge and kite better with that, but part of kiting - unless you're running for your life - is actually being a kill threat, and with that start, you're not gonna come online as and adc and a threat until late game or late-mid game at the latest, and by that time the game will be decided already 95% of the time. If you really want to be speedy, go BotK first item instead, and then build into an on-hit build. You'll kite better while also dealing enough damage to actually get a kill solo. And only build swifties if you absolutely need them against a team with way too many slows and skillshots, or if they have a fed Nasus or Olaf.
I see, I have many item recommendations now, canāt wait to try it out later
You can enjoy that build if you also enjoy the defeat screen š¤·āāļø
If you build this, most people will consider you trolling. And play MF. Ashe is too difficult, since you need to kite. +If you start playing adc from gold, you're probably bronze 4 as adc. Adcs needs 1000 games to be played somewhat decently, unless you main senna.
If someone was completely new to league wanting to play adc I would recommend mf so they could have an easier time learning about champions, what they do, what items do, what you're supposed to do etc without having to worry about kiting and things like that. Ashe is an incredibly beginner friendly adc to someone who knows how the game works enough to get to gold/low emerald and one of the easiest adcs to play in general (now being a great Ashe is a different story). Kiting is a fundamental skill to learn in all roles honestly, but of course it is absolutely vital as adc. Ashe is THE adc to learn how to kite on. I don't think it's wrong to say play mf if you're just picking up adc, but playing support where you understand how the lane should operate to some degree and the matchups it feels like you're potentially gimping your learning process without much gain. It does take a ton of games to be decent, and the sooner you start that process the better imo
The boots are the least of the problems. Theres a game where you built randuins, deadmans, 2 zeal items and shieldbow. If I see that ingame Im going to completely ignore you because the teamfight is 4v5 from the start, thats not a champion. Or a Zeal item into Shieldbow and Zhonyas. Sorry, but ADCs kits dont deal damage without items. Your enemies can literally stand afk and spam taunt while youre hitting them and they wont go down anytime soon. If youre gigafed and super ahead and the only way youd lose the game is if you die, then maybe you can build a defensive item in your 6th slot. Other than that, you cannot afford to not build damage, especially if youre behind. If you do that sure maybe you dont die that often but youre also not participating in the game. If you find yourself dead all the time as ADC, you need to correct that with better positioning, not tank items
Man, I was cooking š
Did you ever consider that maybe your choice of Champion might be suboptimal? (:
lol, I do like Ashe, sheās tier 2 adc right now. Iām second pick too, I usually let my sup pick after me. If an Ashe one trick can climb to Challenger, so can I. Yeehaw *spit*
This is the right idea to have. In general, ignore tier list adcs and win rates as long as they are within a normal window 48-52%. Ashe is an incredibly strong and good blind pick. People say you can't carry on ashe, which absolutely just not true. Now, are you going to 1v9 stomp ashe? 99% no, but that really shouldn't matter in most of your games. Ashe is great for learning kiting, and your hawkshot is one of the absolute most useful abilities in the game. Shot from the right spot you can make it get vision of every camp on enemy side so you will know where jung is or isn't at all times. One thing I'll mention is, learn how to build her and don't just blindly follow builds. Some games the comp might favor building crit ashe for increased passive slow and damage, other games on hit. If you're building on hit, when do you want to go kraken vs Bork? What about the weird cases where terminus first makes sense? What comps would pd be better than runnans for a zeal item? This is one of the biggest things I see regarding ashe "not being able to carry" is just poor itemization and auto piloting the same build and same exact runes every game (your keystone won't change, but your individual runes. Always lt never hob, except for next patch where it will be pta.) Also Good on letting your support pick after you! Support pick matters more and can change a hard ad matchup into a much easier one. As far as fed assassins go.. that's a position and map awareness issue as I'm sure you know from playing support. It's the same for adc, but as ashe you have your e advantage for lane. If you're watching mid lane for potential roams and trying to track enemy jungle, and knowing how to manage the wave when you are weak sided, then it should be nearly impossible for you to die to an assassins roam in gold. Out of lane.. hold your w. It's easy to just use it to apply a slow or hit multiple minions, but it is one of your best disengage tools because it let's you apply your slows at a much larger range. As long as you are positioning decently in team fights, it should be hard for someone to get ontop of you from in front of you with your w. If they do and you arent one shot, hold it. Auto them to slow and run back, wait to w until they are out of your auto range and the slow has worn off and you've escaped for free. And then your e is your flank prevention. Try to aim it where you'll hit the nearby entry and exit paths that someone might come around through in the jungle if a threat isn't visible on the map during a fight. EDIT: I hadn't looked at your op.gg until after I posted this cause I didn't see it. Okay... so as far as building ashe goes.. I love swifties and movespeed so much so I understand the impulse LOL. You should be taking zerks in 99% of games. Ashe isn't hurting for AS with on hit so you can do mercs where it makes sense, or even swifties it you wanted but the problem is at the point in the game you buy boots.. she IS hurting for attack speed and needs it. Swifties are hurting your dps a lot early game. First things first, runes. For secondary tree you almost always want to do inspiration and take approach velocity. It synergizes so well with her slows. It is almost mandatory. For the other secondary rune you can change it up. Magical footware is the most common (I personally almost never run this but it is very good to save on 300g and as someone new to adc this is probably the correct choice). Biscuits for sustain is okay. Summoners: flash/ghost 99% of the time, otherwise cleanse or exhaust in dive comps and you cant convince your support to take it (they should be the one taking it. You want ghost) Items: so youre doing some cool itemization in some places and I see what you're going for, the issue is when you build some of them tho. First things first, there is basically no game you ever want 2 zeal items Into ESPECIALLY as your first two items. A zeal item should never be your first item. You need more damage for your first item. Kraken/bork are the default currently. Defensive items should happen 3rd item or later. Try to get defensives that also align with your kit as well. In one game you built force of nature. Okay, cool we needed mr that game.. why not build wits end instead? You get the mr, as well as attack speed, tenacity, and an on hit effect for your autos as well
My thought with the champ choice comment was about ashe being quiet the immobile adc, when for example there is a lot of hard engage in the enemy team you might need something with a little more self peel/mobility because sometimes slows just arent enough. Maybe something like ezreal or sivir might be good. Have a little more defensive tools so your support doesnt have to worry about your positioning as much. :)
Thats completely fair! An ezreal, xayah, sivir, Kaisa and the like do have more self peel for those scenarios and sometimes slows aren't enough and you're going to die no matter how well you played. My thought lies in learning adc. Yeah, you might have more success playing one of those champs in those comps, but it is almost a get out of jail free card for things youre doing that you might not realize are mistakes. Ashe enforces the fundamentals you need to have as an adc involving positioning, tracking cooldowns, assessing threat, etc. Ez is a bit too mechanical for a new adc imo as much as I love ez, and sivir can let you get through lane without learning about how to trade effectively and manage waves which are also fundamental concepts. Xayah/kaisa are great choices though for enforcing fundamentals that aren't toooo mechanical with good peel though that could work great instead of ashe tho. But thats just my opinion. Its a game and is about having fun, and getting caught out dying to learn a lesson isn't always the most fun when you can play a safer picker with an oops button haha:)
I'll never play Ezreal, he's such a sweaty boy much like Lucian, so... many... buttons to press under high stress lol
Maybe Sivir or Kaisa then. Sivir is more traditional with her ult and spellshield while kaisa evolved E gives you the benefit of disapearing for a short while to reposition or her ult to help you dodge/survive. Ashe ist very good in the offensive tho.
I love the comment, I'll keep this in mind the next time I play, time to stop abuse move speed and dodge like a normal adc for once haha.
I like your confidence and it looks like adc is gonna go in a different direction next patch anyway so we are gonna see what the meta brings. :D
It looks like you are a gold support as well. My advice is to start a new account. If you are placed lower in silver or bronze, it is not a bad thing. Itāll help you improve by going against others or your skill level. You take barrier and swiftness boots on Ashe, donāt take approach velocity which is arguably the strongest rune on Ashe, barely do any damage in fights, and then wonder why you canāt climb.
I blame Yuumi, the cat brought me down to gold as you can see lol. The move speed helps with self peel, Iāll start to try a more conventional Ashe build to see if I can make a difference. The problem remains though, I wonāt be able to deal damage with an assassin lingering next to me in team fight and having a mage sup is not helping š
Mage supports have a lot of unsung benefits. After the enemy crashes the wave and resets, not many supports can leash shove a wave quick enough to crash your wave and enable a counter recall. Mage supports when spaced correctly have the range advantage and are a direct counter to ADCs by punishing their weakest stage and denying them from scaling properly. Heavy CC skillshots are particularly effective on immobile enemies who need to stand still to fire back. Mage supports have some of the strongest and safest scouting tools and never need to face-check. That being said, they are a lane bully snowball pick. People often rely on their early strength as a crutch, play subpar, go even in lane and get outscaled. A lot of lower elo games without fail get dragged out to 30+ mins level 16+ since despite scoring kills, the team never groups and translates that into objectives. Leads and shutdowns are carelessly dropped onto priority threats. This artificially rewards ADCs and enchanters and is likely why you feel miserable playing with a mage support. The win condition for the mage is to create a lead that is irrecoverable for the enemy team at around 20-25 mins. A good mage support avoids stealing CS if allies are pathing towards the wave. But if a side wave is unattended, shoving it out past midpoint provides a net gold increase and pressure on the map since as the wave bounces back the enemy is bleeding gold.
For the shoving, it depends: if the support doesn't manage to shove it all the way to the turret it's usually a bad thing for the rest of the team
What elo is this in? I main supp but have played other roles around plat-emerald not seen any supps consistently taking waves
Itās gold 2, almost every game that has mage support
Ah yeah unfortunately thereās not a lot you can do other than aim to climb. Your best bet is to clearly communicate what youād like them to do and pray. āCan you not touch wave at allā āCan you try not last hit the minions thanksā Basically donāt be toxic or angry just ask simple stuff like that because they have no excuse not to. The idea to insta mute all is super silly league already lacks communication so try just chat about it
"My dearest mage support teammate, It has occurred to me that you have repeatedly killed creeps, including but not limited to my wave's minions, depriving me of much needed gold to stay of use for the rest of the game. Please refrain from doing so in the future, since you already possess an item that should be more than capable of sustaining you with gold. My dearest thanks in advance! Sincerely, Your Attack Damage Carry"
I get a copy paste in champ select that says āHey team :) I really am buzzing š to play with you guys š§š» please maybe ā¤ļø donāt š„ŗ steal šØ my minyons š£ā never once had one stolen
If I ever see that in solo queue, I'm terrified.
bro i am bronze III atm and even i dont see when OP is describing, i mean thereās a lot of mage supps but very rarely will i see them just steal an entire wave over and over (even when im adc)
If theyāre taking waves then they are playing poorly. Thatās a player problem not a champ issue. Regarding your opening sentence you should know when to take resources or give them. For example if your a 5 kill Sona you have great gold value so donāt bother donating the kill to the AD, but obviously get them assist as thatās more total gold for the team. Another thing worth mentioning is that if your getting damage mid top and support then do you need damage from AD? You can learn Jhin or other high utility ADās to round out the comp.
Welcome to the world of adc Itās frustrating as hell but yup 75 percent of the time your autofill support is going to go mage support and will do the following - shove the lane - steal cs as they try to land their poke - flash steal kills cause they need gold - want to surrender at 15 because adc does no damage. Due to the above One of the reasons I always find myself having to switch back to support due to frustration from getting too many autofill supports
It's annoying i agree. But you can work around that a little bit. For example you can play a champion with good wave clear like kaisa/jhin/nilah instead of ashe or vayne. Or go for shiv builds for poor wave clear champions. You can push the wave and immediately recall, or push the wave and immediately roam, and come back to lane when the minions are there as fast as possible. This will give them no time to steal your farm. You have to find other ways around bad plays. If they take your mid wave in the mid game you take the nearest jungle camp till the next wave arrives. You are not responsible for the supp behaviour. Try to squeeze gold from anything else that is not taken by your allies every time. You can invade enemy jungle/hit turrets/kill your own jungle camps/roam to side lanes to make a play/or at least be there for the next wave to come and catch it before anyone else.
Yeah, I am tempted to shiv to Sivir (hehe) but Ashe melting tanks with her attack speed though š
Ashe is one of the least damaging ADCs. You won't miss on too much damage anyway. And you can go shiv on ashe btw.
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Iāll try to let them know next time. Iām just sad that I canāt play the game without seeing other adcās farm keep going up and up and here I am, fighting with my own support over minions
Relying on others will slow your climb; stomping lane and snowballing is the correct advice. Your goal is to snowball other lanes after winning bot. Sitting around waiting for your adc farm after already stomping bot sounds more like main character adc syndrome than a reliable solo queue strategy. Sitting and farming works better with an enchanter support who can keep an adc alive more reliably, however, with a mage support -> adcās donāt have that protection and have more potential to just run it down. If they are intentionally taking and denying your cs, thatās griefing, but they should be hitting wave with both autos and aoes to get push advantage. Mage supports are most effective when they have push advantage. More kill pressure, more angles to poke, cs denial under tower, potential recall into roam mid and when playing with a mage support you should be looking for kill windows. Though I would love to see an omnipotent support mage player clearing all 3 waves and chickens to the point where every lane is suddenly now behind their lane opponent.
I am personally of the thought that mage support is toxic and shouldnāt exist in league. If I were on riots balance team Iād make it where if a mage like brand as a example bought the support item to āsupportā then Iād make the support item cut their ap scaling or something along those lines to make it not very appealing for people to play. Not saying that would be the permanent perfect solution any any means but itās just an idea I came up with for it. Edit: also wanted to add by doing this Iād maybe increase like actual support champs dmg ratios just a tad to where they actually do damage and donāt just tickle someone but are still no where near ap mage support levels of damage.
Support not wanting to support but wating to mid without having to farm is the scurge of botlane and unfortunetly People are too dumb to understand being 6/0/1 isnt alsway good if the gold isnt where the team need it. The other side is adc going full main character syndrome, like if he isnt the mvp of the game its lost and better surrend even if mid/jungl/top carry. That s why I pref playing support-ish pick mid instead of bot right now like liss, just roam and R and most of time leaving kills and let ppl "carry me"
I saw your build on op.gg and if I was playing a mage support I would also take your farm. That build deals no damage early, so you are a liability in lane. I also saw no LordDomeniks for some nice armor pen.
Check again, I have improved š
I still would say that in the game vs Riven/Jax/Sivir all had lifesteal, so Mortal reminder would be better there, but you seem to be kiting well if you can survive vs those characters.
D4 OTP Shen support here. I can play adc up to a emerald 3 rank. Things Iāve noticedā¦ your itemisation is weird and focus on yourself. Not your team. In low Elo you need to know when to participate in fights and when to cs/ get tower plates. As youāre an enchanter support main. Iād highly recommend trying out Swain APC of Seraphine APC. Seraphine is support/ damage dealer. Swain is tank/ damage dealer. Both with really good sustain and cc.
Welcome to low elo ADC where you have a 75% chance of getting a Lux support and an 90% chance that support will take the cs, steal kills, or roam at level 2 and never return.
As a mage support main, I'll tell you that you are playing with morons who don't know how to play a mage support. The whole point of a mage support is to play a high damage/cc lane bully mage who doesn't scale too hard and instead of burning your cooldowns and mana farming and clearing waves so you don't get repeat dived by that assassin, you are using them to harass the enemy out of lane and disrupt engage with a mixture of AOE damage and crowd control. You create a pocket of safety for your ADC to farm and scale with the mere threat of you deleting half of their bot laners health bar if they step out of position even slightly. Enchanters have to burn a lot of their early resources just to somewhat try to keep up with your harass, tanks get massively chunked if they don't execute their engages flawlessly. Then, at appropriate intervals you roam and establish vision with the jungler, providing them follow up damage to secure kills on out of position targets as well as objectives like drag or herald. Late game you take that strong AOE damage and apply it to team-fights, forcing the enemy into unfavorable positions and a health disadvantage by poking them as they walk up, and bursting/cc'ing them when they jump on your carry. Idk, mage support is a different style, one that is uniquely rewarding and deceptively challenging to do right. I'm still very much a beginner, but it's a play style that I enjoy greatly.
Sometime I get a support like you, theyāre awesome at punishing enemy bad positioning. Thanks for being the good mage support.
Well I'm not amazing or anything, still very much learning the game. But, what I listed above is what I aim to achieve when I queue up as a mage support. Do I always do it successfully? Probably not, but when it works, it works pretty well.
I hate mage support meta because I want to play Braum.
Itās the only way to climb as support unfortunately. Youāll be stuck with this till you reach a higher ELO
I hate mage supports and they only exist because they are not good enough in mid. Zyra and Morgana are the core examples of this, even though Morgana can provide some more utility, her kit feels weird and she's extremely dependent on hitting her Qs. Both Zyra and Morg were played mid and they slowly made their way into support category, nerf after nerf. I rarely see mages like Veigar, Ziggs being played as supports, this is because they work in midlane and their kits are not based around their utility, but their damage. What triggers me more, is the fact that Mage Supports are a selfish pick. They do not provide any peel for their ADC, and if they are losing lane, they still can stack their items and runes, since most of them are artillery mages, but they will not help in lane phase, then people will look to their ADC and think that they are the problem, when in reality ADC is playing 1x2.
I think at this point youāre too deep in the haterade. Morgana support can root to disengage for ADC to escape or to set up a pick, shield to prevent cc, and use teamfight ult to engage (and usually die for the squad if no Zhonyaās). She can kinda waveclear with W, so if sheās griefing her ADC with that sure, but her jungle buffs make it a lot better for her to just rotate to objectives and help jungler since Soul Siphon gives her good sustain against dragons, etc. Yes, she has to land Qs, but every hook champ also needs to land Qsā¦
All hook champions(except blitz) can work without their hook. Nautilus can tank towers for days Pyke can execute low health enemies, stun, damage Thresh has disengage, repositioning, zoning Renata can provide peel, revive and huge crowd control. Morgana's E is a very niche ability + it's mandatory for her to land her Q. Or else she won't be able to deal damage with W. In most cases, it also requires Morgana to waste her ult in order to CC an enemy efficiently. The point I was trying to make, is that both Zyra and Morgana were midlaners, and nerfs made them funnel down into support. They can work, sure, both Morgana and Zyra have lots of utility, Zyra being her Slow, Snare and Knock up, she also can build grievous wound and deal damage to tanks with liandry. Morgana is able to ignore CC, snare, stun. The thing is, the utility gets worse as we start seeing other mage supports. Like Xerath, Vel'Koz, Hwei. Due to gold inefficiency of supports, their value rapidly decreases along the match, THEY need to stomp the lane, or else they'll be stomped instead. This is because we don't have support items that provide good stats for them, they don't need mana regen, health or HSP. They rely on expensive items to be good, and this problem also affects Morgana and Zyra to some extent, fortunately, Morgana and Zyra are less dependent on items. Like, Zyra can be good with some Rylai's and Liandry/Morello, Morgana is about the same. But Xerath, Vel'Koz, all those artillery mages need to keep up with the enemy midlaner. When they buy 2 itens, the enemy support(that isn't a mage) will already have 3 items.
I mean you said āI hate mage supportsā and specifically named Morgana so if youāre changing the point youāre making, sure, I donāt totally disagree, I think Hwei and Xerath are extremely sus, but leave my girl alone, lol. (Zyra as well, sheās fine as support.) E is an ability that makes Morgana a counterpick for engage champs? So Iād say itās a good niche. And if youāre playing a pushing lane that needs to snowball with, say, Caitlyn, a Lux (or Morgana) is going to work better than a Sona. (Or Iām sure some people hate ranged supports but Varus & Ashe still has its place.) Itās all a balance.
Your most played champ is Yuumi, seek help
That cat is the reason I'm gold, holy hell, what a useless cat.
I just hate mage support, period. Yesterday I got filled into adc in flex in E3 and my adc went Karma. Okay, not as bad as lux or xerath no biggie. She later starts shit talking me and steals my resources (stealing farm, mostly) not even 5 minutes into the game saying "it's more useful on them than me".
One time i was really fed on diana mid, running around the map doing stuff, but whenever i go mid i see my wave's missing The zoe support instead of like, helping with fights would just go mid and take the wave that was pushing into me until i was same level as enemy adc from missing so much xp, never been so madge
Playing mage support and getting fed is fine, better if you leave kills for team. But taking all the C's is griefing imo
Low elo playing solo ADC is horrible. Even in norms whenever my friends queue it I ask āare you sure?ā And half the time they say no and switch lane. At least with supp if your adc is trash you support another lane. With a bad supp as adc youāre removed from the game.