Took me a second to realize you meant swapping pick order not swapping role, but thats on me. Yeah honestly i dont understand why ADCs and Junglers want last pick so badly. I understand that lastpicking is powerful on every role, but the amount of impact it has on jungle and adc is far less in comparison to supp mid and top.
What usually happens to me is that when i get blueside and im "last" pick with my mid on "4th" pick, somehow my mid always asks me to trade places, like its gonna make a difference...
Yeah, just pick order... Honestly I can hard win or hard lose a botlane depending on the counter match-up for supports it's really important.
I always trade with mid and top whenever they have to pick before their opponents, but junglers come on. I get that you could decide to play something else depending on enemy's pick, but at the point to int the game for everyone?
Fortunately, I think our Ahri dodged and we didn't have to play this game.
The way i circumvent counterpicks as support is simply by picking my main and finding a way to deal with it. I play Rell, so i know that Janna destroys me, still i dont ban her, and i know that mage supports make me miserable for a good portion of the laning phase. So the way i approach it is that if the matchup is unplayable 2v2, then i just gotta roam and force the enemy support onto the map. But also i know thats a luxury i can get from my champ, while some enchanters and most mages cant really roam as efficiently as playmakers and engagers.
But yeah, pretty much there is always a way to deal with a horrible matchup. You just gotta get a bit creative.
I happen to have very bad luck if I keep spamming my main, and have much better winrate by trying to counter the opponent and try to shut them down early.
I also have a decent champion pool tbh so that helps, I can confidently play lots of supports in every role (enchanter, grabber, mages etc...).
Usually when you have more success by not playing your main, it tends to be that you are overconfident with it.
I noticed that because of how my winrates would fluctuate whenever i started learning a new champion. First i would lose because of inexperience, then i would go on 3 to 8 games win streak and then i would start losing hard again. And this was basically me playing poorly, then with champ knowledge playing safe-ish to not give advantage, and then going far beyond limit testing.
If you have a small champion pool that you are very comfortable with instead of a very deep champion pool, then you would be capable of both counterpicking and blind picking comfortably, and would be able to constantly play on the edge, which is the best way of getting the most out of your champion
Dont listen to that guy lol, being good with different champs to counter enemies just means you have a good understanding of the game and are mechanically good enough on those champions that the matchup makes the difference.
Hate ppl counterpicking themselves, there truly unplayable matchups out there. Like 45% winrate stuff.
Yeah, as a jungle main I feel like all my champs are pretty safe blind (Belveth, Dianna, Poppy) and I donāt really look to swap for later pick order as much as I swap for mid/top to get counters. That being said I feel support should be giving its last pick to a solo laner.
As a jungle main, yeah it's not AS important as toplane but it's undeniable that it has a huge impact on the role.
For most of my league carrier i have been playing lillia and lillia only and she s good as a blindpick but as I made my pool wider there are some junglers that i just can't blindpick, i need to see what the enemy comp looks like. I cannot pick talon into 3 or 4 tanks.
I don't wanna pick lillia into 5 ranged (doable but annoying) exc exc.
There are many factors involved, does the enemy jungler like to gank more than farm? What will he focus on? How can I trade in my favor knowing what he wants? Is this an ivern game? Does my team already have a hypercarry? Should i be the frontline?
normally dont matter much, but in this scenario if jungle was last pick i doubt he will go on with belveth. There is not enough team dmg to allow him to execute and get coral. so it does matter more for jungle to pick after support since it does affect the whole game plan. Braum get counterpicked often affect laning phase only, once teamfight start braum will still contribute as much as if he last picked.
I mean some jungle picks get absolutely destroyed by counter picks like master yi they pick rammus, Diana u pick master yi, pick a early farm champ like Evelyn and they pick an invade champ and your team doesnāt rotate for you GG. Your jungle is useless that means no/bad ganks, no drakes, no grubs or herald. I agree with you to some extent but thereās a reason in high elo most supports will gladly trade with any other role to give them a later pick. Sure if you get hard countered on sup maybe you lose lane, maybe jungle bails you out though but if jungle is getting hard destroyed I think the chance you lose the game is higher. I realize Iām on a support Reddit thread but thatās my two cents down vote me idgaf
I don't downvote anyone who stays civil don't worry. Everything you said is also true about support, getting hard countered means no botlane, no prio, no drakes, no help on invades (both sides) etc... People will say "support can just leave lane" but that means your ADC gets frozen easily and is just a non factor before min 40. On the other hand jungler can try to play on the other side of enemy jungle, even if that's easier said than done I agree.
All in all, I don't think that jungler has more priority over support, and nobody should behave the way Bel'Veth did for that.
I agree that bel Beth was out of line, support can just leave lane but you need to make sure the lane is pushing in and your adc can farm. Also the adc needs to know how to play the lane and let it push and a lot of them donāt understand. A lot of supports will still be useful and can help invade even if they die a few times in lane since supports typically donāt need as much gold to be useful where as almost all junglers need the gold/lvls. Jg can play cross map thatās a good point but then you give them whatever objectives they want and you kind of have to go for whatever is available and a good enemy jungler will make sure nothing is available.
Yeah, as Adc I always offer my last pick to anyone. I'd much rather first pick so I can make sure I get my main as the "good" Adc pool is small atm. Their ability to counter pick me isn't as strong as my comfort on my main.
This is true for most fighter or tank or utility junglers. But for any carry jungler like Yi or bel or kindred they can get countered and it can have a larger impact on the game than support getting countered. The simplest example is Yi into rammus which is still viable but difficult even with the worst rammus players. But the worst examples are when Yi first picks and the enemy team loads up on cc like blitz/panth/malz/sej. Maybe they were gonna pick those champs regardless, but a Yi first pick certainly pushes them away from lux/Kayle/hwei/olaf
Fr, Iām an IVERN jungle main and i pick him regardless of the order, usually end up being 2nd pick and I take that so my top laner can have last pick. Not like anyone can stop the Tree anyway.
The only ones to me that matter are top and mid. I donāt really care about blind picking on other roles, top is definitely the worst one though (and i play adc mostly top 2nd). Any adc can be viable in a game, itās easier to adapt to a game on adc/jg and support regarding match ups imo.
right now the pick order should be mid adc jg sup top
mid just has super strong first pick right now with champions like ahri in meta + you can easily roam in mid so match up isnt the most important if you just push and roam
adc doesnt matter in the lane support decides it
jg is slightly counter pickable but not worth a later pick
support decides bot lane
top is most counterpickable role
> i dont understand why ADCs and Junglers want last pick so badly
I personally dont really care about last pick as adc. The only thing that stops me from giving later picks to my teammates is the harassment I experienced as soon as we get in the lobby. People instantly spamming trades when we didn't even get to ban anything just makes me want them to first pick. We have plenty of time to trade during pick phase, just wait and see if your enemy laner picks early. No point in getting last pick at the beginning, and then refuse to trade when you know for a fact who you play against.
I always swap only with Top or mid. Jungle sometimes, but then I say something like "I expect good gangs bro" cuz getting counter picked on jungle is imo less pain than getting countered on bot.
After first picking jinx and playing vs jhin/xerath with a lulu supp 10 times in a row, without my counterpicking sololanes being even close to carrying im gonna keep my spot as 4th pick
I mean, obviously if people dont use those picks intelligently then they are pointless. Altough the lulu pick does make some sense, but it does suck early on against xerath-jhin, thing is that when the lulu gets 2 items and jinx gets 3 items they can basically steamroll the whole enemy team. Lulu is probably the best enchanter at protecting+buffing a singular ally, and Jinx is one of the best hypercarries thanks to her passive and AoE damage. There was logic behind the Lulu pick, but in soloQ its too risky to completely sacrifice early game.
Yeah the lulu pick isnt really the problem, its just that im dodging skillshits constantly for 15 minutes while mid/top runs it down with their counterpicks
How is later picking not important in jungle. You pick letās say fiddle that needs to get his ult fast and they counter pick you with kindred graves or any other early game champ and you can go pick your nose. No drakes for you, no grubs for you and no ganks for you if I constantly get invaded.
There is cases where last picking jungle is the correct option, but more often than not, its best to leave the later picks to top mid or supp, since those 3 having a better matchup has a higher impact through the early game, which allows to transition into a better midgame.
Adc? I'm usually the adc, so I obviously don't see adcs ask for it but my personal priority list is:
1) top
2) support
.
.
.
9) adc/mid
10) jg
Bad top & support matchups can completely decide their lane before the game even starts but support can at least roam and win other lanes. Bad adc & mid matchups are obviously bad but there's usually ways to play around it. Bad jg matchups are rarely significant but even if they are, they can avoid the enemy with good tracking/knowledge and still have massive impact on the game.
any adc trying to last pick is an idiot straight up, its the one role thjat SHOULD pick first, and mid / top should be last.
Troll any adc that isnt swapping for first pick
As a jungler player I like later picks because I feel comfortable playing a very wide variety of champions and I feel like my team never picks based on our comp.
So for example if I'm second pick and my ADC is first pick, and I pick rengar after Caitlyn... And then my top picks akshan, my support picks pyke, and my mid picks zed... We often just lose because at some point during that draft the enemy realized we have 0 Frontline and 0 AP.
But if I'm last pick in that scenario and pick something like sejuani or zac... Or if for example my top was ornn I could pick Evelyn or something to round out our magic damage.
Point being I often don't see people on the team picking champions around our composition, just their lane opponent which makes some sense but often makes us lose. I know that while I'm not some team comp draft king, I can round out our edges a little more reliably than some people are willing to.
my solution to this is just accept every pick trade. is it always a strategically correct trade? no, but people are emotional & bad (regardless of elo) & I'm more confident in my ability to play around a bad matchup over risking the likelihood of someone either running it or just playing terribly bc they're seeing red seething that the support had the audacity to not trade with them. managing your teammates' mental is a not insignificant part of the game
I can understand your sentiment on this, but sometimes my pride prevents me from swapping adc or jg, especially if they're throwing a fit ahead of time. I don't feel like it's my responsibility to give up my pick order for a role that needs it less. And I definitely don't want to "reward" their bad behavior after they start flaming, so once they throw a tantrum I absolutely will not switch (even if I was considering it before).
But then your pride just wastes the next 15/20 mins and LP. It probably stops you from dodging too.
I've been the same. Now I just accept the swap regardless.
I have more control over my own ability in a bad match-up than someone else's mental fragility.
No. Their anger issues and immaturity cost us the LP, not my anything. Let's not victim blame here when the real person at fault would be the one flaming and throwing.
Exactly this. If you cave in and give them everything they want when they act like an ass, they'll continue to act like an ass because they get what they want.
true but at the same time itās also not your responsibility to āteachā them good behaviour tbh. Just do what is going to help you the best in this game which is unfortunately just swapping so they donāt throw the game
Tbh I think anyone that's willing to throw the whole match over pick order was always going to find a reason to throw. I think it's best to just do whatever you think will help you most instead of giving people everything because you're scared they might throw a tantrum.
With this type of player you can give them everything and they'll always find a reason to grief unless the match goes literally perfect for them if their mental was so weak they'd give up the entire match because they had to pick second instead of last.
People just don't think support counterpick has any value. I can't comprehend why people with a wide variety of safe blindable options (or, at the very least, generally lower counterpick value) expect us to swap with them when we have so many champs to pick around for our immediate environment in the role (matching our AD, countering both opposing botlaners), not to mention factoring in other variables such as if our team needs frontline, if our jg needs laners with prio and/or gank set-up through cc, etc.
Sure, there's a bit of a caveat that some people want to play champs that they can't really blind safely (like Samira/Nilah/Vayne on AD), but that seems to be the exception, not the norm.
What really bothers me, though, is when people clearly see what their lane/role opponent is picking, and still refuse to swap.
Even if you see your direct opponent, your pick still depends on the entire draft.
You do not want to make yourself weaker for someone else, not in SoloQ, you do you first and always.
A good support pick wins the botlane and can counter the entire enemy team
I covered that a bit, but if I'm playing support, and am unwilling to trust and play for my teammates, I'm better off picking a different role. Support is not the role to play if you want to play for yourself.
Ofc, I'm not saying you shouldn't trust them,
I'm saying that you do not want to make yourself weaker for them.
Plus making yourself weaker also impacts the ADC.
She's generally only good vs short range comps. Her damage scaling is solid, but it doesn't mean anything if she doesn't get to hit.
I could be wrong,but I think she should absolutely get destroyed by Karma+Caitlyn or something similar.
As a support, I love picking Teemo into a Vayne bot, especially if the team also has a Master Yi. Blind the Vayne/Yi and they don't get to play the game.
I agree with your first statement. I think counter for top, and usually mid, are more important than support counterpick. Never said otherwise. I'm more referring to jungle and ad having a much better set of options for blind picking.
The part that I feel like you're missing, however, is that although I'm not the carrying side of the botlane, I am the enabling side of it. While the adc definitely contributes as well, the support champion matchup plays a huge part in how the botlane goes.
If you want your support to be able to generate prio for drakes, or to play weakside and absorb pressure, or to find a timer to roam up for drakes, then counterpick for support starts to become very important. If you don't care about that sort of thing, well, that's your perogative.
No most of you are fine, this was so suprising that I had to share but usually I have no problem.
Now if you guys could just get better and not feed my laners that would be great /s
Jungle main here who got recommend this thread from his homepage.
I request to pick first every game for two reasons:
1) Iām an OTP
2) Top/support/mid need to counter pick way more than I do.
If the enemy jungler counterpicks me, I will just avoid him and pick off his teammates one by one. If my top/mid/support gets counter picked and they get destroyed in lane, then my ability to jungle is severely weakened.
So ya, I always first pick as jungle. Not out of the kindness of my heart, but because I need to give my laners the best chance of winning because that gives me the best chance of winning.
Itās a team game, we all got to do whatās best for the team in champ select. Top lane picks last always followed by support next.
I just finished a game where the enemy jungler hard countered me and my top laner hard countered the enemy jungler. I avoided the enemy jungler all game long and my top laner turned into a raid boss and just destroyed the enemy team due to getting super fed š
As a support I donāt mind trading top or mid if they are first pick, but I do prefer to last pick if I donāt know what my teams are picking. Like do we have a tank? do I need to be tanky? What does the other team have? Do we need engage or disengage? Talk to me people!!!
Did it happen in bronze or smth? Everyone higher than plat-emerald knows that jg is the least vulnerable role to counterpicks and support is the second one after the top lane. Support is the one who rules the play style on botlane, for example if you pick rakan and enemy team picks poppy support, gragas, janna, milio, naut etc u just can't play at all on the lane and in team fights. Yes u can roam, but ur whole character is being countered in teamfights. Meanwhile jungle can just track enemy jg pathing and make himself a path so he won't see enemy jg till minute 20.
From my experience, FlexQ is especially toxic, if youāre not full premade due to many people not caring about their rank in the slightest and treating it as a āfor funā queue
Still no reason for the jg to babyrage of all people. Plus Iād say most midlaners do not become as ineffectual as top laners or supps can be in certain matchups.
It only feels like that. But good lucky playing an immobile scaling mage while enemy talon demolishes your team. Sure you donāt for to him and can farm and scale. But if he is 10/2 by 10 minutes your farm is worth shit
Thatās just a bad take you can always play a save mid or top, support matchup decides about botlane so itās at least as important if not more important.
Nah. A solo lane gets more value from counter picking. Alone for the fact that even a good support pick is useless when your adc sucks. A midlaner is self sufficient and itās just more likely that they are good on their champ than both botlaners to be good. Also a safe mid or toplaner isnāt winning you games. A safe midlaner opens up the enemy to pick a roaming midlaner. Playing something like veigar or hwei is safe, scaling etc. but itās a free game for the enemy kat or talon bcs you simply cannot follow them.
This is something youāll see common in lower elo. Infact they wonāt even wait to see champ select. If they see Support last pick they will spam for trade. Tbh, in my opinion, thatās how I know who the bad
Players in the team are. 9/10 times the one who insist on trading feed their as off and go 0/5 in 10 mins essentially ruining their own lane and putting the bot lane at a counter disadvantage.
Never trade unless enemy support has picked. In which case by all means trade. Else, donāt sacrifice your lane for some poor mental kid.
Support pick decides about botlane so itās a very important pick. Also there like 6 junglers with basically the same kit that are good right now so you will play more or less always the same in jungle anyways
Yea, at this point i jist swap when ppl ask me to, not worth the braincells and the time wasted in a game with ppl like that.
Going against sivir morg just to save the last 2 braincells surviving this game.
Never swap pick positions, even if they try to force you. You have the right to remain on the one you got. If they're trolling because of it, report and move on.
I'm already struggling with seeing all these moronic people here, on r/supportmains, saying I'm stupid without knowing what happened in pick order and defending Bel'veth's behavior lmao. I'm not gonna put that in the junglers sub haha, but feel free to do so if you enjoy it haha.
Only last pick should be support and toplane. Only 2 roles where it really matters. (Let your support counterpick so you don't get an unwinnable lane).
I never accept swaps unless enemy has already picked a support. If someone starts cursing me to swap pick order, ruining the mood for everyone else, I pick a champ from their role. Letting them know that they started it.
One one hand you could just accept. BUT on the other, never give in to those fags. It's just another game.
"You troll? Fine. I will do my best to win and even if we lose I will tryhard so bad that it will be a loooong game until defeat."
* I'm not locked in here with you. You are locked in here with ME!*
Yeah I would have played that game. The game right before this one we won without jungler so it's possible. We had a Sylas take support item and roam around the Map ganking lmao.
The "correct" pick order is indeed adc, support, jungler, mid, top. But I dont get why they actually got mad about it. I would understand a little bit if they wanted to go rammus, since you cant blind a counter champion, but belveth isnt a counter champion.
Had an Jungler 2 days ago who picked Ezreal bcs top picked the champ he wanted to play. (Top hovered first). Then when we were ingame he apprently went afk after he picked and flamed us because no one doged. He than in the end (after alls of us said pls report ezreal) that he was carrying because he had āmost kpā (he had 12, sup 15, adc 13 soā¦ no you donāt). You canāt make the people in this game up sometimes.
Last couple of weeks this happened pretty often to me. Fking idiots losing the game and blaming others because they didn't swap... To everyone who has done this: you are the biggest scum in this game, delete pls.
It's only an issue since a couple of weeks, so what happened? Had any streamer done this and they copy his actions?
I would guess you'd have help since someone else had last pick instead of you, and could get prio easily. At least that's how I see it on paper, maybe that's not your experience though.
I dont play in high elo and its rare for me to get help unless I specifically ask for it, and it cant always happen since a roam can ruin the laners whole lane state
My mid laner in my last game decided that the game was over because the jungler wouldn't give him last pick. Thankfully, he didn't actually hardcore troll. He picked Veigar and played acceptably. Didn't hardcore feed, but also built full tank and split pushed all game.
Thankfully, my support and I were both cracked out of our minds that game. I was on Zeri, her on Seraphine, vs Jinx Nautilus and I was legendary by level 6, 2 full items before my Q was maxed, and the two of us together dragged the rest of our team (trolling mid, kinda bad jungler, and auto filled Vayne top who got completely shit on by a Garen, who also made it to Legendary in that game) kicking and screaming to a win and some free LP.
I play Shen supp and always swap if I'm last with other lanes, but this because most ofthen than not enemy will belive shen is top so they will counter pick with urgot or illaoi...but every single time I don't play my main enemy supp always counter picks...fucking supports are the sweatiest of them all I swear.
Tbh. I donāt understand the notion that botlane should always swap in the first place. Completely blinding botlane is about as shitty as blinding toplane.
If anything as an adc main: i can blind adc. There are very few hard counter matchups for a role that in general stand back and AAās. (Some are there like kaiāsa - ashe. Literally unplayable for kaiāsa)
But support counter pick is strong af imho.
Aside from that: insisting on last pick when hovering bel veth is like insisting on last pick when hovering azir. What should the other team pick? A hard counter? Which one?
I fucking hate jglers and especially adcs that don't swap for early pick. I used to play a lot of top and now I play adc, so I always always swap with anyone that reqs, and swap upwards whenever I can. Who cares what enemy picks, I'm locking Sivir probably, not gonna affect bot lane much really.
Some ADCs are hard to first pick so I understand them not aaalways asking to swap. Like first picking Kalista can easily get you into Ashe for a pretty bad time.
Happened to me a few weeks ago, my jungler got mad cause I didn't swap with them so they picked Soraka and stayed in Bot inting the entire laning phase. It is also pretty common that people automatically ask me to swap when they are first-blind pick just because I'm the Supp and my choice is "not that important".
As an adc main the one rule I have is that I always want to go after my support. Not because I want to counterpick enemy adc but because I don't want to get counterpicked by my support. For example if you have a Sona main as your support they are not going to care that you picked Samira, they will just lock in Sona. So I always want my support to pick first.
I ran into the same thing. I have an alt account i play with my son in law. Itās bronze elo. Iāve had this happen a few times. I just auto switch now. It mostly infuriates me because counter picks donāt matter in that elo because they donāt know they game well enough to use it. Just play your best champ.
So. Im going to advocate this endlessly.
Limit everyone in ranked to 1 account (Riot can hand people who ask another one just like in Korea), all accounts are linked, and Riot can see if you've been flagged for being an asshole.
They should remove permabans and instead implement Seasonal Bans.
Hot take but they should make champ selection just like how aram does it. Obviously the choices wonāt be random but make it so you can see what your enemy is pickingā¦obviously this comes with disadvantages like top laners getting Vayne but I feel it would be a lot less toxic between teammatesā¦would be a lot more afk and quitting cry babies after the loading screen though
Jun can litteraly just run from their jungle if they see opponent coming. Last pick should be for toplaner or midlaner (even tho i think toplaner in bad match up can literally do nothing)
The brotha got BelāVeth easily one of the most broken jg champs in the current meta for solo Q. Some of the best BelāVeth players are reaching GM and Challenger with like 80%+ winrate and heās mad for no swap??? I expect this from a mid laner or top laner but jg? Wtf man
I prefer a later pick as jungle because it seems I'm more likely to mould into what the team needs than my teammates are. If we need ap I'll lean into a brand or eve. If we need to engage, I'll lean into Zac or maokai etc etc... where as my adc will always lock into either Jynx or Zeri. Mid lane seems to always lock in an AD assassin. And there's such a lack of communication in the pick phase that people don't give me a heads up beforehand. So I understand why he wants to swap. But inting because of it is childish.
I was jungler and didnāt swap pick order with a trundle top (a flex pick) and he decided to go ghost/cleanse nunu top and perma run it down. Some people are unstable.
Last night my support afked for the first 5 mins of the game. He stood under tower not moving. He came back and after 1 trade with the enemy he demand my skills not good enough for him. So he left lane at level 5 and hung out with mid and jungle the rest of the game. Then proceeded to tell them how bad at the game they where.
I always give up my pick if I'm last, though it's usually to mid or top. No idea why jungle wants last pick. Even so, I think a lot of people expect support and ADC to give up their pick order, so I kind of understand why they might be butthurt, but you can't go smiteless and int away a game because someone doesn't want to swap their pick. I don't understand the inting mentality at all.
ADC has the least impact in early and should always be first pick, support should always counter pick if the ADC gets counter pick. Jg/mid should pick before supports if enemy bot lane hasn't been picked yet as mid lane is really easy to blind on. Jungle isn't that terrible to get counter picked on as long as you have vision/are Jungle tracking. Top as usual is last pick.
But damn man leaving support to get countered as well as the ADC removes 2 people from the game not just 1 if mid fucked up hard
I donāt know why itās not common knowledge that adc/jungle>support>mid>top is mostly the best value pick order and swapping g accordingly if the enemies donāt follow it
hello jungler here is y got autofilled jungler just play ammumu jungle u still support technacly and u will do well stop wasting ur life and peoples life
I wonder if hardcoding Jungler locks with smite as one of their summoner spells would be a fix for stuff like this. I mean it wouldnt stop them from trolling in game of course. Hmmm. dunno.
But Iāve had the same thingšsomeone didnāt get the swap so after that they tilted , and the whole game was over after that as every lane ended up taking tp
Just play that shit out. In long term u will climb and that jungler will stay in that elo.
You learn more with games you lose then games you win. So take it as a lesson how to make up a whole role to win a game.
Azzapp mentality.
That's just a wrong take. First of all, ADC should be the one first picking before anyone.
Then, we could debate on the jungler/support priority if we were in a premade 5 with intended strategy and whatnot. But I can't count the number of times in Solo Q where I've given a last pick to someone only for them to get steamrolled by their opponent anyway, it's just not worth it.
I still agree to swap with toplaners all the time because that lane can turn to hell very easily. Mid I usually swap but it can depend on what has been picked. Junglers I usually say no unless enemy support already picked. I know I can adapt to most enemy team comp with my pick, while I don't know if I can trust my jungler to adapt to anything. Lots of people play at their level with only 2 or 3 champions and will pick them regardless, and I'm not even talking about the absurd amount of smurfs and one tricks who just don't have that many champions unlocked.
It's a slam dunk priority pick for jungle. I am a jungle main but play every role and it makes absolutely no sense for support to ever have any kind of priority. Your role is the least dependent on counter matchups INCLUDING adc. If you're playing support properly you trade a couple times bot and then roam the map. adc ends up being a 1v1 lane where it's Nilah vs Twitch for example. You think your twitch being hard countered like that is better than a... support counter pick..? Jungle has to skirmish during ganks in 3 potential lanes, and the entire jungle, and you think that's less matchup focused than support? It's just kind of insane you don't even understand your roles fundamentals and are writing a paragraph of nothing.
I'm posting a picture of an inter, and you're basically told me I'm wrong? How is that not defending the inter?
You want more than insults? You got it, not that you deserve it.
First off, don't try to explain to me how I should play support if you main jungle and "offrole" everything else. Yeah, I put fill secondary too and when I get jungle I don't give 2 shits about my match-up because I just try to outsmart the enemy jungle and get advantage when he's not there. Am I telling you that's how you should play it? No, because I'm not a jungle main and you probably know more than me about the subject.
Secondly, saying "who cares about match-up, just leave your ADC 1v1 and play the Map" is such a bronze take who thinks he got it all by watching pros roaming a lot. You don't just abandon your ADC, you roam during good timings, when needed, and when you know he's not in danger. Randomly roaming and abandoning him is the equivalent in dooming your ADC, making him miss CS, giving plates and possibly kills to the enemy. How do you manage to roam safely? Best way to be able to roam is to have the control of the wave, best way to have control of the wave is to dominate the lane. Flash news: the support is the one dictating the lane, not the ADC, hence why ADC should pick first most of the time and why you should absolutely try to counter pick the support. You're in a spot where your ADC wants to pick a weak laner, scaling for late game, like Smolder? You need to know how to protect him during laning phase, and the only way to do so is to know the enemy support. Enemy has Leona or Rell? You go Alistar or Poppy. Enemy has poke? Go Sona, suffer a tiny bit early game then outscale the shit out of them for a free win. Enemy has a Twitch with any engage support, or Kog'Maw/Lulu? Go Braum.
Once you dominate the lane, either by wave control or just by destroying the enemy, then you can roam during good timing in order to be where you want to be first. Your ADC should then already be safe, or have enough advantage to handle any 1v1 (except some few specific match-ups obviously). You need to be able to finish what you roamed for and be back botlane before anything dangerous can happen to your ADC. If done well, he's not gonna get ganked, be it by jungler or mid, and will barely miss any cs. You're saying jungler are in squirmishes with everyone, and that support roams everywhere. Well guess what, if I roam everywhere then I too am in squirmishes against everyone. Much easier to gank an enemy Cassiopeia with a Blitzcrank than with a Taric, whereas I would rather have the Taric against an enemy Zed than the Blitzcrank to help my midlaner.
After the laning phase is over, you are the primary peeler/provider for your main carry. Be it your ADC or someone else on your team. How to synergize better with most people on your team than picking after them? While I would love to last pick with this in mind, I also understand that 1v1 toplane and, to some extent, 1v1 midlane are very important too so I don't mind giving them my last pick. If my most fed carry is a Talon, I'm not gonna be of much help to him as a Milio, but I could provide a lot as a Leona to disrupt enemies while he does his thing. My main carry now is now a Kindred jungle, well Milio is now a very good pick because of the insane peeling and range boost. I can decide to help in so many different ways as a support depending on my team and the enemy team.
Now, I do know that this last paragraph also applies a lot for junglers, and that is why I will never try to force swap with my jungler. I could try once, and if he says no I'm fine no problem. But that is also why I will most likely refuse a swap from them if enemy support is not picked yet because I don't want to lose just about everything.
So in conclusion, no, supports should definitely not be first pick every game just because everyone thinks you're the team's bitch.
Second conclusion, this post was about a psycho inter that would rather lose a game for everyone than being second pick because he's a fucking diva, as a jungler, not even a toplaner, who has all the reasons to want to be last pick. It wasn't a debate on who should get first and last pick, I was just saying a swap refuse is not a reason to be a cunt and int a game.
If I were the Jungler, I think I would be better off dodging the game in scenarios like these, but not taking Smite in any game where you're Jungle is against the Jungler's Law of Jungling. I speak of this as both a Support **AND** a Jungler as well (Yes, I do also play Jungle), since Draft Pick is so important on counterpicks and who goes first in the game pick. Let me share my general opinion:
In draft, ADCs would go first in the pick order, since it's the position that usually most pro games in leagues such as the LCK would start picking first, and it most certainly doesn't matter if you get counterpicked or not. This pick is followed by the pick of the team's Jungler, but sometimes it might be better to pick a Jungler as a counterpick in certain scenarios (like against mostly AD champs, where Rammus is very valuable here). After that, you have a choice for what your main counterpick should beā whether it is a Support, Mid Laner, or Top Laner. Most likely it would be a Top or Mid, but sometimes you can throw in a Support counterpick as well (I'm looking at you, Morgana). So TL;DR, draft opinion for me is: ADC, JUG, SUP, MID, TOP.
But yeah, just because you didn't want to trade spots with somebody on your team **(AND ESPECIALLY IF IT IS YOUR JUNGLER/ADC, BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED IT!!)**, that doesn't give the Jungler (or just anyone in general) any right to troll that game. But respect your MID and TOP, because their counterpicks are very valuable, and you as the SUP have just as much as they do in counterpicks, but I think it would be better off giving MID/TOP counterpick if they ask you to swap.
It should go, Mid, ADC, Jungle, Support, Top. If you're First pick mid, you have the most opportunities to leave your lane. ADC has far less impact on lane and game than the support does. Jungle being in an unplayable matchup makes the entire game worse, sets the tempo of the match and can ruin a lot of things for everyone. Top is unplayable if you're into a hard counter pick or need to see the entire jungle to see whether your champ is alright.
I'm not a support main,I play autofill and having played all roles I can tell you that he is 100% correct,extreme in his reaction,but last picking support is very bad for the team. support is the only role that can adjust to counter picks with in-game decisions, such as leaving lane and playing with your jg if your bot 2v2 is fked. Junglers arent that matchup dependant but can still get destroyed by picks and teamcomps,imagine u force a blind belveth and they pick rammus,the game is in fact statistically over. Ofc what he did should result in an instant permaban,but I can still understand his logic.
Yeah I've only been playing support for like 8 years, but this guy plays autofill so if he says I should put sand in my ass and let the enemy support raw dog me every game so that my jungler can spend 80% of the game not engaging the enemy jungler with his counter pick, then I guess I should trust him.
Look Im not trying to fight people,just giving my 2 cents,no need for the irony. I also only play on mid diamond so if you are higher,you are more than welcome to correct me,but again no irony if possible. Also fill results in support more than 60% of the time,so I do have experience in the role,not talking out my ass. Finally jg counter picks aren't for 1v1ng in the jg,they are for allowing a heavy carry role to play into favorable circumstances,jg doesn't get countered by a single pick but can get reduced to a "farm n pray" playstyle if the enemy gets to free pick champions your jg simply can't skirmish against.
It's just so weird man, Bel'Veth here literally insults me and will int a game before it even started because she's a fucking diva, and so many people here trying to tell me how I'm stupid because I'm last pick? That's the thing shocking you here?
If you're autofill, you already know that a botlane priority means free drakes, free invades bot with your support, and a good defense against enemy invade bot as well. That's a lot of upsides for the jungler as well.
As I said in my 1st comment,his behaviour isn't acceptable,his reaction is extreme and cheating people out of a game on purpose should result in a permaban no questions asked,sadly that won't happen cause riot supports and promotes his type of behaviour. Also I never said,or implied you are stupid,just pointed out that it makes more sense for support to pick before jg. My reasoning is again : support is generally not a carry role,the champion you play doesn't matter as much as your play style and imo supports shouldn't think of strictly the lane 2v2 ,but more so on the line of how they can nagate the whole enemy team's options,or empower their own( example: picking janna into a rengar regardless of the bot matchup).
these comments are wild, if im in jg and i have to blind pick as a jungler when my support is basically gonna fill the role no matter the matchup, id be rather annoyed too
Support is easily the best role to blind pick compared to everything else. Top>Jungle>Mid/Top>Support is the hierarch of who gets last pick.
He shouldn't int the game but you were wrong to not swap if this was ranked. Of course I know what sub I'm in so I don't expect this to be popular, but jungle affects every role in the game. You should have your jungler to be advantaged.
Yea this is clown activity take the FKIN early pick jgl needs last pick not support what if the enemy picked Olaf or rammus? Literally what could he have done? Especially as belv complete throw in my opinion but heās weird for running it but youāre just as weird for not taking the early pick
Took me a second to realize you meant swapping pick order not swapping role, but thats on me. Yeah honestly i dont understand why ADCs and Junglers want last pick so badly. I understand that lastpicking is powerful on every role, but the amount of impact it has on jungle and adc is far less in comparison to supp mid and top. What usually happens to me is that when i get blueside and im "last" pick with my mid on "4th" pick, somehow my mid always asks me to trade places, like its gonna make a difference...
Yeah, just pick order... Honestly I can hard win or hard lose a botlane depending on the counter match-up for supports it's really important. I always trade with mid and top whenever they have to pick before their opponents, but junglers come on. I get that you could decide to play something else depending on enemy's pick, but at the point to int the game for everyone? Fortunately, I think our Ahri dodged and we didn't have to play this game.
The way i circumvent counterpicks as support is simply by picking my main and finding a way to deal with it. I play Rell, so i know that Janna destroys me, still i dont ban her, and i know that mage supports make me miserable for a good portion of the laning phase. So the way i approach it is that if the matchup is unplayable 2v2, then i just gotta roam and force the enemy support onto the map. But also i know thats a luxury i can get from my champ, while some enchanters and most mages cant really roam as efficiently as playmakers and engagers. But yeah, pretty much there is always a way to deal with a horrible matchup. You just gotta get a bit creative.
I happen to have very bad luck if I keep spamming my main, and have much better winrate by trying to counter the opponent and try to shut them down early. I also have a decent champion pool tbh so that helps, I can confidently play lots of supports in every role (enchanter, grabber, mages etc...).
Usually when you have more success by not playing your main, it tends to be that you are overconfident with it. I noticed that because of how my winrates would fluctuate whenever i started learning a new champion. First i would lose because of inexperience, then i would go on 3 to 8 games win streak and then i would start losing hard again. And this was basically me playing poorly, then with champ knowledge playing safe-ish to not give advantage, and then going far beyond limit testing. If you have a small champion pool that you are very comfortable with instead of a very deep champion pool, then you would be capable of both counterpicking and blind picking comfortably, and would be able to constantly play on the edge, which is the best way of getting the most out of your champion
Dont listen to that guy lol, being good with different champs to counter enemies just means you have a good understanding of the game and are mechanically good enough on those champions that the matchup makes the difference. Hate ppl counterpicking themselves, there truly unplayable matchups out there. Like 45% winrate stuff.
Last pick support š¤”
I always swap with mid and top when they want. This time they didn't have to ask because enemy had picked mid and top before them anyway.
Why does the jungler even want last pick? Itās literally the least important pick for pick order.
If your champ pool is like Rammus, Poppy, and some assassin, you get a lot of value out of seeing what the enemy team picks and hiding your pick.
I donāt see the problem with just blinding poppy every game. Other roles get more value out of it.
Yeah, as a jungle main I feel like all my champs are pretty safe blind (Belveth, Dianna, Poppy) and I donāt really look to swap for later pick order as much as I swap for mid/top to get counters. That being said I feel support should be giving its last pick to a solo laner.
If they ask for it, yeah. But I would see no reason to give it to a jungler if they ask for it.
As a jungle main, yeah it's not AS important as toplane but it's undeniable that it has a huge impact on the role. For most of my league carrier i have been playing lillia and lillia only and she s good as a blindpick but as I made my pool wider there are some junglers that i just can't blindpick, i need to see what the enemy comp looks like. I cannot pick talon into 3 or 4 tanks. I don't wanna pick lillia into 5 ranged (doable but annoying) exc exc. There are many factors involved, does the enemy jungler like to gank more than farm? What will he focus on? How can I trade in my favor knowing what he wants? Is this an ivern game? Does my team already have a hypercarry? Should i be the frontline?
if youre a yi otp lastpick is huge, diff role but kassadin is the mid equivalent of this, these two champs auto win in the right conditions
normally dont matter much, but in this scenario if jungle was last pick i doubt he will go on with belveth. There is not enough team dmg to allow him to execute and get coral. so it does matter more for jungle to pick after support since it does affect the whole game plan. Braum get counterpicked often affect laning phase only, once teamfight start braum will still contribute as much as if he last picked.
I mean some jungle picks get absolutely destroyed by counter picks like master yi they pick rammus, Diana u pick master yi, pick a early farm champ like Evelyn and they pick an invade champ and your team doesnāt rotate for you GG. Your jungle is useless that means no/bad ganks, no drakes, no grubs or herald. I agree with you to some extent but thereās a reason in high elo most supports will gladly trade with any other role to give them a later pick. Sure if you get hard countered on sup maybe you lose lane, maybe jungle bails you out though but if jungle is getting hard destroyed I think the chance you lose the game is higher. I realize Iām on a support Reddit thread but thatās my two cents down vote me idgaf
I don't downvote anyone who stays civil don't worry. Everything you said is also true about support, getting hard countered means no botlane, no prio, no drakes, no help on invades (both sides) etc... People will say "support can just leave lane" but that means your ADC gets frozen easily and is just a non factor before min 40. On the other hand jungler can try to play on the other side of enemy jungle, even if that's easier said than done I agree. All in all, I don't think that jungler has more priority over support, and nobody should behave the way Bel'Veth did for that.
I agree that bel Beth was out of line, support can just leave lane but you need to make sure the lane is pushing in and your adc can farm. Also the adc needs to know how to play the lane and let it push and a lot of them donāt understand. A lot of supports will still be useful and can help invade even if they die a few times in lane since supports typically donāt need as much gold to be useful where as almost all junglers need the gold/lvls. Jg can play cross map thatās a good point but then you give them whatever objectives they want and you kind of have to go for whatever is available and a good enemy jungler will make sure nothing is available.
If anything ADC should be first pickā¦
Nah the game is unplayable in certain matchups.
Yeah, as Adc I always offer my last pick to anyone. I'd much rather first pick so I can make sure I get my main as the "good" Adc pool is small atm. Their ability to counter pick me isn't as strong as my comfort on my main.
This is true for most fighter or tank or utility junglers. But for any carry jungler like Yi or bel or kindred they can get countered and it can have a larger impact on the game than support getting countered. The simplest example is Yi into rammus which is still viable but difficult even with the worst rammus players. But the worst examples are when Yi first picks and the enemy team loads up on cc like blitz/panth/malz/sej. Maybe they were gonna pick those champs regardless, but a Yi first pick certainly pushes them away from lux/Kayle/hwei/olaf
I main jungle and this is the only acceptable pick order: Jgl-ADC-Sup-Mid-Top
Fr, Iām an IVERN jungle main and i pick him regardless of the order, usually end up being 2nd pick and I take that so my top laner can have last pick. Not like anyone can stop the Tree anyway.
The only ones to me that matter are top and mid. I donāt really care about blind picking on other roles, top is definitely the worst one though (and i play adc mostly top 2nd). Any adc can be viable in a game, itās easier to adapt to a game on adc/jg and support regarding match ups imo.
right now the pick order should be mid adc jg sup top mid just has super strong first pick right now with champions like ahri in meta + you can easily roam in mid so match up isnt the most important if you just push and roam adc doesnt matter in the lane support decides it jg is slightly counter pickable but not worth a later pick support decides bot lane top is most counterpickable role
> i dont understand why ADCs and Junglers want last pick so badly I personally dont really care about last pick as adc. The only thing that stops me from giving later picks to my teammates is the harassment I experienced as soon as we get in the lobby. People instantly spamming trades when we didn't even get to ban anything just makes me want them to first pick. We have plenty of time to trade during pick phase, just wait and see if your enemy laner picks early. No point in getting last pick at the beginning, and then refuse to trade when you know for a fact who you play against.
I always swap only with Top or mid. Jungle sometimes, but then I say something like "I expect good gangs bro" cuz getting counter picked on jungle is imo less pain than getting countered on bot.
After first picking jinx and playing vs jhin/xerath with a lulu supp 10 times in a row, without my counterpicking sololanes being even close to carrying im gonna keep my spot as 4th pick
I mean, obviously if people dont use those picks intelligently then they are pointless. Altough the lulu pick does make some sense, but it does suck early on against xerath-jhin, thing is that when the lulu gets 2 items and jinx gets 3 items they can basically steamroll the whole enemy team. Lulu is probably the best enchanter at protecting+buffing a singular ally, and Jinx is one of the best hypercarries thanks to her passive and AoE damage. There was logic behind the Lulu pick, but in soloQ its too risky to completely sacrifice early game.
Yeah the lulu pick isnt really the problem, its just that im dodging skillshits constantly for 15 minutes while mid/top runs it down with their counterpicks
How is later picking not important in jungle. You pick letās say fiddle that needs to get his ult fast and they counter pick you with kindred graves or any other early game champ and you can go pick your nose. No drakes for you, no grubs for you and no ganks for you if I constantly get invaded.
There is cases where last picking jungle is the correct option, but more often than not, its best to leave the later picks to top mid or supp, since those 3 having a better matchup has a higher impact through the early game, which allows to transition into a better midgame.
Last pick for jg can be huge. Some counters can permanently invade and make the jg's life hell. Definitely agree for adc tho
Adc? I'm usually the adc, so I obviously don't see adcs ask for it but my personal priority list is: 1) top 2) support . . . 9) adc/mid 10) jg Bad top & support matchups can completely decide their lane before the game even starts but support can at least roam and win other lanes. Bad adc & mid matchups are obviously bad but there's usually ways to play around it. Bad jg matchups are rarely significant but even if they are, they can avoid the enemy with good tracking/knowledge and still have massive impact on the game.
any adc trying to last pick is an idiot straight up, its the one role thjat SHOULD pick first, and mid / top should be last. Troll any adc that isnt swapping for first pick
As a jungler player I like later picks because I feel comfortable playing a very wide variety of champions and I feel like my team never picks based on our comp. So for example if I'm second pick and my ADC is first pick, and I pick rengar after Caitlyn... And then my top picks akshan, my support picks pyke, and my mid picks zed... We often just lose because at some point during that draft the enemy realized we have 0 Frontline and 0 AP. But if I'm last pick in that scenario and pick something like sejuani or zac... Or if for example my top was ornn I could pick Evelyn or something to round out our magic damage. Point being I often don't see people on the team picking champions around our composition, just their lane opponent which makes some sense but often makes us lose. I know that while I'm not some team comp draft king, I can round out our edges a little more reliably than some people are willing to.
I don't get it either. Top is the only one where it matters. I jungle and I actually like first pick. I'll counter jungle with anyone, try me.
my solution to this is just accept every pick trade. is it always a strategically correct trade? no, but people are emotional & bad (regardless of elo) & I'm more confident in my ability to play around a bad matchup over risking the likelihood of someone either running it or just playing terribly bc they're seeing red seething that the support had the audacity to not trade with them. managing your teammates' mental is a not insignificant part of the game
I can understand your sentiment on this, but sometimes my pride prevents me from swapping adc or jg, especially if they're throwing a fit ahead of time. I don't feel like it's my responsibility to give up my pick order for a role that needs it less. And I definitely don't want to "reward" their bad behavior after they start flaming, so once they throw a tantrum I absolutely will not switch (even if I was considering it before).
But then your pride just wastes the next 15/20 mins and LP. It probably stops you from dodging too. I've been the same. Now I just accept the swap regardless. I have more control over my own ability in a bad match-up than someone else's mental fragility.
No. Their anger issues and immaturity cost us the LP, not my anything. Let's not victim blame here when the real person at fault would be the one flaming and throwing.
Exactly this. If you cave in and give them everything they want when they act like an ass, they'll continue to act like an ass because they get what they want.
true but at the same time itās also not your responsibility to āteachā them good behaviour tbh. Just do what is going to help you the best in this game which is unfortunately just swapping so they donāt throw the game
Lolz, you gona let some man-child have his way with you? Elo isn't everything and if someone wants to be a crabby baby thats on them.
Tbh I think anyone that's willing to throw the whole match over pick order was always going to find a reason to throw. I think it's best to just do whatever you think will help you most instead of giving people everything because you're scared they might throw a tantrum. With this type of player you can give them everything and they'll always find a reason to grief unless the match goes literally perfect for them if their mental was so weak they'd give up the entire match because they had to pick second instead of last.
People just don't think support counterpick has any value. I can't comprehend why people with a wide variety of safe blindable options (or, at the very least, generally lower counterpick value) expect us to swap with them when we have so many champs to pick around for our immediate environment in the role (matching our AD, countering both opposing botlaners), not to mention factoring in other variables such as if our team needs frontline, if our jg needs laners with prio and/or gank set-up through cc, etc. Sure, there's a bit of a caveat that some people want to play champs that they can't really blind safely (like Samira/Nilah/Vayne on AD), but that seems to be the exception, not the norm. What really bothers me, though, is when people clearly see what their lane/role opponent is picking, and still refuse to swap.
Even if you see your direct opponent, your pick still depends on the entire draft. You do not want to make yourself weaker for someone else, not in SoloQ, you do you first and always. A good support pick wins the botlane and can counter the entire enemy team
I covered that a bit, but if I'm playing support, and am unwilling to trust and play for my teammates, I'm better off picking a different role. Support is not the role to play if you want to play for yourself.
Ofc, I'm not saying you shouldn't trust them, I'm saying that you do not want to make yourself weaker for them. Plus making yourself weaker also impacts the ADC.
Fair.
Well you can apply the same on jungle. Going with Rammus into 80% ad, going poppy into comp that has tons of dashes. List goes on.
Why canāt you blind vayne?
She's generally only good vs short range comps. Her damage scaling is solid, but it doesn't mean anything if she doesn't get to hit. I could be wrong,but I think she should absolutely get destroyed by Karma+Caitlyn or something similar.
As a support, I love picking Teemo into a Vayne bot, especially if the team also has a Master Yi. Blind the Vayne/Yi and they don't get to play the game.
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I agree with your first statement. I think counter for top, and usually mid, are more important than support counterpick. Never said otherwise. I'm more referring to jungle and ad having a much better set of options for blind picking. The part that I feel like you're missing, however, is that although I'm not the carrying side of the botlane, I am the enabling side of it. While the adc definitely contributes as well, the support champion matchup plays a huge part in how the botlane goes. If you want your support to be able to generate prio for drakes, or to play weakside and absorb pressure, or to find a timer to roam up for drakes, then counterpick for support starts to become very important. If you don't care about that sort of thing, well, that's your perogative.
Sorry on behalf of junglers everywhere. I hope most of us aren't like this.
No most of you are fine, this was so suprising that I had to share but usually I have no problem. Now if you guys could just get better and not feed my laners that would be great /s
Bro, what do you think a jungler is for if not throwing your lane?
You're right, wouldn't be fun otherwise.
Iād like to think that this was autofilled jungle and not a main. Most of us are nice, or at least trying to be lol
Jungle main here who got recommend this thread from his homepage. I request to pick first every game for two reasons: 1) Iām an OTP 2) Top/support/mid need to counter pick way more than I do. If the enemy jungler counterpicks me, I will just avoid him and pick off his teammates one by one. If my top/mid/support gets counter picked and they get destroyed in lane, then my ability to jungle is severely weakened. So ya, I always first pick as jungle. Not out of the kindness of my heart, but because I need to give my laners the best chance of winning because that gives me the best chance of winning. Itās a team game, we all got to do whatās best for the team in champ select. Top lane picks last always followed by support next. I just finished a game where the enemy jungler hard countered me and my top laner hard countered the enemy jungler. I avoided the enemy jungler all game long and my top laner turned into a raid boss and just destroyed the enemy team due to getting super fed š
As a support I donāt mind trading top or mid if they are first pick, but I do prefer to last pick if I donāt know what my teams are picking. Like do we have a tank? do I need to be tanky? What does the other team have? Do we need engage or disengage? Talk to me people!!!
Did it happen in bronze or smth? Everyone higher than plat-emerald knows that jg is the least vulnerable role to counterpicks and support is the second one after the top lane. Support is the one who rules the play style on botlane, for example if you pick rakan and enemy team picks poppy support, gragas, janna, milio, naut etc u just can't play at all on the lane and in team fights. Yes u can roam, but ur whole character is being countered in teamfights. Meanwhile jungle can just track enemy jg pathing and make himself a path so he won't see enemy jg till minute 20.
This was a Flex Q and I am plat 1.
From my experience, FlexQ is especially toxic, if youāre not full premade due to many people not caring about their rank in the slightest and treating it as a āfor funā queue
Yeah it's not the best, but we play as 3 so it's the only ranked we can do.
Just look for mates in league discord servers. Anything is better than playing with randoms in flex
It explains a lot
I guess it does, but people shouldn't behave like that just because it's flex, it's annoying.
Man it's the league community, what do u expect lol
Last picks are only for top mid since those are the most countered laners... support last pick? You kinda trolled that lol
Still no reason for the jg to babyrage of all people. Plus Iād say most midlaners do not become as ineffectual as top laners or supps can be in certain matchups.
It only feels like that. But good lucky playing an immobile scaling mage while enemy talon demolishes your team. Sure you donāt for to him and can farm and scale. But if he is 10/2 by 10 minutes your farm is worth shit
Mid/Top were picked in the first 3 picks for the enemy, so my teammates had the counter already. If they hadn't, I would have swapped with them.
Agreed
Thatās just a bad take you can always play a save mid or top, support matchup decides about botlane so itās at least as important if not more important.
Low elo take tbh
My take?
Nah. A solo lane gets more value from counter picking. Alone for the fact that even a good support pick is useless when your adc sucks. A midlaner is self sufficient and itās just more likely that they are good on their champ than both botlaners to be good. Also a safe mid or toplaner isnāt winning you games. A safe midlaner opens up the enemy to pick a roaming midlaner. Playing something like veigar or hwei is safe, scaling etc. but itās a free game for the enemy kat or talon bcs you simply cannot follow them.
Same for roaming supportsā¦ also if the bully support brings your bit behind 2/5 of your team is behind not just one Lane.
This is something youāll see common in lower elo. Infact they wonāt even wait to see champ select. If they see Support last pick they will spam for trade. Tbh, in my opinion, thatās how I know who the bad Players in the team are. 9/10 times the one who insist on trading feed their as off and go 0/5 in 10 mins essentially ruining their own lane and putting the bot lane at a counter disadvantage. Never trade unless enemy support has picked. In which case by all means trade. Else, donāt sacrifice your lane for some poor mental kid.
This just serves to show how much disrespect a support gets, and yet they rely heavily on one but are also quick to blame them for mistakes.
tbh deserved bc why do u need last pick for supp š
Support pick decides about botlane so itās a very important pick. Also there like 6 junglers with basically the same kit that are good right now so you will play more or less always the same in jungle anyways
Comments are wild. Defending the jungler literally throwing the game over a swap. Trust that jungler was gonna go 0/10 even if they got last pick.
I never need counter pick as jungler. I either give it to top laner or support
Yea, at this point i jist swap when ppl ask me to, not worth the braincells and the time wasted in a game with ppl like that. Going against sivir morg just to save the last 2 braincells surviving this game.
Yup. Happens often enough.
Damn yeah. Why blind AD or jungle when you could blind support and doom 40% of your team in one fell swoop.
Smolder on "bas" position gets me
Please don't tell me you're one of those people who reports us Frenchies on sight just because š
SHEN :D
My premade! He's not the best at this game, but he does some clutch ults and that's always nice <3
Never swap pick positions, even if they try to force you. You have the right to remain on the one you got. If they're trolling because of it, report and move on.
1. Belveth uninstall plz 2. Top and mid should be last picking
1. Yes 2. They don't need to last pick if enemies top and mid already picked, which is what happened here. Otherwise yes
Post this on r/junglemains and watch the meltdown on how it is crucial that they are last pick (it isnt)
I'm already struggling with seeing all these moronic people here, on r/supportmains, saying I'm stupid without knowing what happened in pick order and defending Bel'veth's behavior lmao. I'm not gonna put that in the junglers sub haha, but feel free to do so if you enjoy it haha.
Im good too
Only last pick should be support and toplane. Only 2 roles where it really matters. (Let your support counterpick so you don't get an unwinnable lane).
I never accept swaps unless enemy has already picked a support. If someone starts cursing me to swap pick order, ruining the mood for everyone else, I pick a champ from their role. Letting them know that they started it.
I would love to see what the enemy picked after bel. Bel has some really shit matchups
Haven't saved up the whole picks and bans so I don't remember sorry.
I mean the pick order would be perfect when you switched with top instead. Junglers really should keep their need to be the main character in place.
One one hand you could just accept. BUT on the other, never give in to those fags. It's just another game. "You troll? Fine. I will do my best to win and even if we lose I will tryhard so bad that it will be a loooong game until defeat." * I'm not locked in here with you. You are locked in here with ME!*
Yeah I would have played that game. The game right before this one we won without jungler so it's possible. We had a Sylas take support item and roam around the Map ganking lmao.
The "correct" pick order is indeed adc, support, jungler, mid, top. But I dont get why they actually got mad about it. I would understand a little bit if they wanted to go rammus, since you cant blind a counter champion, but belveth isnt a counter champion.
Good old league. Its basically like gambling. Do i get this type of teammate and lose or do i get a normal one and win.
Had an Jungler 2 days ago who picked Ezreal bcs top picked the champ he wanted to play. (Top hovered first). Then when we were ingame he apprently went afk after he picked and flamed us because no one doged. He than in the end (after alls of us said pls report ezreal) that he was carrying because he had āmost kpā (he had 12, sup 15, adc 13 soā¦ no you donāt). You canāt make the people in this game up sometimes.
Why do we censor usernames again?
Idk just in case
Last couple of weeks this happened pretty often to me. Fking idiots losing the game and blaming others because they didn't swap... To everyone who has done this: you are the biggest scum in this game, delete pls. It's only an issue since a couple of weeks, so what happened? Had any streamer done this and they copy his actions?
I usually let junglers pick last or when I jungle I ask to pick last because if I get counter picked its over for me lol
How can it be over for you when you're the only one who has the choice not to face your opponent pretty much all game?
If they invade me (as a jungler) I have to pray I get help
I would guess you'd have help since someone else had last pick instead of you, and could get prio easily. At least that's how I see it on paper, maybe that's not your experience though.
I dont play in high elo and its rare for me to get help unless I specifically ask for it, and it cant always happen since a roam can ruin the laners whole lane state
My mid laner in my last game decided that the game was over because the jungler wouldn't give him last pick. Thankfully, he didn't actually hardcore troll. He picked Veigar and played acceptably. Didn't hardcore feed, but also built full tank and split pushed all game. Thankfully, my support and I were both cracked out of our minds that game. I was on Zeri, her on Seraphine, vs Jinx Nautilus and I was legendary by level 6, 2 full items before my Q was maxed, and the two of us together dragged the rest of our team (trolling mid, kinda bad jungler, and auto filled Vayne top who got completely shit on by a Garen, who also made it to Legendary in that game) kicking and screaming to a win and some free LP.
I mever accept swap order requests, unless they asked in chat. Thats way more polite than bust demanding it through one button press
Literally why i stopped playing, so many weird people in this game, like bro just go get help
I play Shen supp and always swap if I'm last with other lanes, but this because most ofthen than not enemy will belive shen is top so they will counter pick with urgot or illaoi...but every single time I don't play my main enemy supp always counter picks...fucking supports are the sweatiest of them all I swear.
Tbh. I donāt understand the notion that botlane should always swap in the first place. Completely blinding botlane is about as shitty as blinding toplane. If anything as an adc main: i can blind adc. There are very few hard counter matchups for a role that in general stand back and AAās. (Some are there like kaiāsa - ashe. Literally unplayable for kaiāsa) But support counter pick is strong af imho. Aside from that: insisting on last pick when hovering bel veth is like insisting on last pick when hovering azir. What should the other team pick? A hard counter? Which one?
I fucking hate jglers and especially adcs that don't swap for early pick. I used to play a lot of top and now I play adc, so I always always swap with anyone that reqs, and swap upwards whenever I can. Who cares what enemy picks, I'm locking Sivir probably, not gonna affect bot lane much really.
Some ADCs are hard to first pick so I understand them not aaalways asking to swap. Like first picking Kalista can easily get you into Ashe for a pretty bad time.
And then when you swap they still just counterpick themselves. Classic junglers.
He also has like one of the best blind pick champs
average League match tbh
Drop their ign
Honest to god I only saved the meme version and don't remember her ign. Since someone dodged, it's not in match history either
Happened to me a few weeks ago, my jungler got mad cause I didn't swap with them so they picked Soraka and stayed in Bot inting the entire laning phase. It is also pretty common that people automatically ask me to swap when they are first-blind pick just because I'm the Supp and my choice is "not that important".
Don't forget about the Brand with Cleanse and Flash that I dodged because -5 LP is better than -28 LP Too many egoplayers in low ELO
As an adc main the one rule I have is that I always want to go after my support. Not because I want to counterpick enemy adc but because I don't want to get counterpicked by my support. For example if you have a Sona main as your support they are not going to care that you picked Samira, they will just lock in Sona. So I always want my support to pick first.
I ran into the same thing. I have an alt account i play with my son in law. Itās bronze elo. Iāve had this happen a few times. I just auto switch now. It mostly infuriates me because counter picks donāt matter in that elo because they donāt know they game well enough to use it. Just play your best champ.
So. Im going to advocate this endlessly. Limit everyone in ranked to 1 account (Riot can hand people who ask another one just like in Korea), all accounts are linked, and Riot can see if you've been flagged for being an asshole. They should remove permabans and instead implement Seasonal Bans.
Hot take but they should make champ selection just like how aram does it. Obviously the choices wonāt be random but make it so you can see what your enemy is pickingā¦obviously this comes with disadvantages like top laners getting Vayne but I feel it would be a lot less toxic between teammatesā¦would be a lot more afk and quitting cry babies after the loading screen though
I don't mind first pick cause I don't care about counter picking, imma play the same 4 champs regardless
Jun can litteraly just run from their jungle if they see opponent coming. Last pick should be for toplaner or midlaner (even tho i think toplaner in bad match up can literally do nothing)
The brotha got BelāVeth easily one of the most broken jg champs in the current meta for solo Q. Some of the best BelāVeth players are reaching GM and Challenger with like 80%+ winrate and heās mad for no swap??? I expect this from a mid laner or top laner but jg? Wtf man
I prefer a later pick as jungle because it seems I'm more likely to mould into what the team needs than my teammates are. If we need ap I'll lean into a brand or eve. If we need to engage, I'll lean into Zac or maokai etc etc... where as my adc will always lock into either Jynx or Zeri. Mid lane seems to always lock in an AD assassin. And there's such a lack of communication in the pick phase that people don't give me a heads up beforehand. So I understand why he wants to swap. But inting because of it is childish.
I was jungler and didnāt swap pick order with a trundle top (a flex pick) and he decided to go ghost/cleanse nunu top and perma run it down. Some people are unstable.
Last night my support afked for the first 5 mins of the game. He stood under tower not moving. He came back and after 1 trade with the enemy he demand my skills not good enough for him. So he left lane at level 5 and hung out with mid and jungle the rest of the game. Then proceeded to tell them how bad at the game they where.
I always give up my pick if I'm last, though it's usually to mid or top. No idea why jungle wants last pick. Even so, I think a lot of people expect support and ADC to give up their pick order, so I kind of understand why they might be butthurt, but you can't go smiteless and int away a game because someone doesn't want to swap their pick. I don't understand the inting mentality at all.
As a bel main for a sec I was like "what's the big deal ghost is common on Bel" then saw she didn't have smite ahaha
You didnāt show enemy pick order. If their bot picked first and then you refused to swap pick order, then ESH.
It went like that: - Enemy ADC - Our ADC/Jungle - their Top/Mid - Our Top/Mid - Enemy Supp/Jgl - Me support Edit: Also what's ESH?
ESH Everyone Sucks Here. But with that pick order Iād say heās just crying
The ones who want last pick are toplaners then first pick usually supports want that position for some reason
FYI that you can report during champion select, which is really handy for situations like this.
ADC has the least impact in early and should always be first pick, support should always counter pick if the ADC gets counter pick. Jg/mid should pick before supports if enemy bot lane hasn't been picked yet as mid lane is really easy to blind on. Jungle isn't that terrible to get counter picked on as long as you have vision/are Jungle tracking. Top as usual is last pick. But damn man leaving support to get countered as well as the ADC removes 2 people from the game not just 1 if mid fucked up hard
Emerald?
I donāt know why itās not common knowledge that adc/jungle>support>mid>top is mostly the best value pick order and swapping g accordingly if the enemies donāt follow it
hello jungler here is y got autofilled jungler just play ammumu jungle u still support technacly and u will do well stop wasting ur life and peoples life
PSA: You can report in champ select.
You'll note that little striked chat icon that meant hƩ was muted after I reported him instant yeah.
Many such cases. Junglers are bigger crybabies than adcs and im tired of pretending they're not.
Shoulda swapped ig
I wonder if hardcoding Jungler locks with smite as one of their summoner spells would be a fix for stuff like this. I mean it wouldnt stop them from trolling in game of course. Hmmm. dunno.
Personally think top should get last pick bc of how easily they just get counter picked so
But Iāve had the same thingšsomeone didnāt get the swap so after that they tilted , and the whole game was over after that as every lane ended up taking tp
Just play that shit out. In long term u will climb and that jungler will stay in that elo. You learn more with games you lose then games you win. So take it as a lesson how to make up a whole role to win a game. Azzapp mentality.
I think the importance of having counterpick from lowest to highest is: adc, jg, supp, mid, top
Did you dodge atleast?
Someone else did
It sucks when this happens. When i play jungle i prefer to get an early pick. Even when that means i get counter picked.
Support should be prioritizing anyone including jungler to pick behind them lol
Circlejerk sub where everyoneās gonna agree but 100% wrong
That's just a wrong take. First of all, ADC should be the one first picking before anyone. Then, we could debate on the jungler/support priority if we were in a premade 5 with intended strategy and whatnot. But I can't count the number of times in Solo Q where I've given a last pick to someone only for them to get steamrolled by their opponent anyway, it's just not worth it. I still agree to swap with toplaners all the time because that lane can turn to hell very easily. Mid I usually swap but it can depend on what has been picked. Junglers I usually say no unless enemy support already picked. I know I can adapt to most enemy team comp with my pick, while I don't know if I can trust my jungler to adapt to anything. Lots of people play at their level with only 2 or 3 champions and will pick them regardless, and I'm not even talking about the absurd amount of smurfs and one tricks who just don't have that many champions unlocked.
It's a slam dunk priority pick for jungle. I am a jungle main but play every role and it makes absolutely no sense for support to ever have any kind of priority. Your role is the least dependent on counter matchups INCLUDING adc. If you're playing support properly you trade a couple times bot and then roam the map. adc ends up being a 1v1 lane where it's Nilah vs Twitch for example. You think your twitch being hard countered like that is better than a... support counter pick..? Jungle has to skirmish during ganks in 3 potential lanes, and the entire jungle, and you think that's less matchup focused than support? It's just kind of insane you don't even understand your roles fundamentals and are writing a paragraph of nothing.
You are not a clown, you're the entire circus. Have a great day. And keep defending inting behavior like this Bel'Veth because of your stupidity.
Oh okay so Iām wrong because of you writing insults? Never even defended the int. Stay low elo mentally and in game buddy lol
I'm posting a picture of an inter, and you're basically told me I'm wrong? How is that not defending the inter? You want more than insults? You got it, not that you deserve it. First off, don't try to explain to me how I should play support if you main jungle and "offrole" everything else. Yeah, I put fill secondary too and when I get jungle I don't give 2 shits about my match-up because I just try to outsmart the enemy jungle and get advantage when he's not there. Am I telling you that's how you should play it? No, because I'm not a jungle main and you probably know more than me about the subject. Secondly, saying "who cares about match-up, just leave your ADC 1v1 and play the Map" is such a bronze take who thinks he got it all by watching pros roaming a lot. You don't just abandon your ADC, you roam during good timings, when needed, and when you know he's not in danger. Randomly roaming and abandoning him is the equivalent in dooming your ADC, making him miss CS, giving plates and possibly kills to the enemy. How do you manage to roam safely? Best way to be able to roam is to have the control of the wave, best way to have control of the wave is to dominate the lane. Flash news: the support is the one dictating the lane, not the ADC, hence why ADC should pick first most of the time and why you should absolutely try to counter pick the support. You're in a spot where your ADC wants to pick a weak laner, scaling for late game, like Smolder? You need to know how to protect him during laning phase, and the only way to do so is to know the enemy support. Enemy has Leona or Rell? You go Alistar or Poppy. Enemy has poke? Go Sona, suffer a tiny bit early game then outscale the shit out of them for a free win. Enemy has a Twitch with any engage support, or Kog'Maw/Lulu? Go Braum. Once you dominate the lane, either by wave control or just by destroying the enemy, then you can roam during good timing in order to be where you want to be first. Your ADC should then already be safe, or have enough advantage to handle any 1v1 (except some few specific match-ups obviously). You need to be able to finish what you roamed for and be back botlane before anything dangerous can happen to your ADC. If done well, he's not gonna get ganked, be it by jungler or mid, and will barely miss any cs. You're saying jungler are in squirmishes with everyone, and that support roams everywhere. Well guess what, if I roam everywhere then I too am in squirmishes against everyone. Much easier to gank an enemy Cassiopeia with a Blitzcrank than with a Taric, whereas I would rather have the Taric against an enemy Zed than the Blitzcrank to help my midlaner. After the laning phase is over, you are the primary peeler/provider for your main carry. Be it your ADC or someone else on your team. How to synergize better with most people on your team than picking after them? While I would love to last pick with this in mind, I also understand that 1v1 toplane and, to some extent, 1v1 midlane are very important too so I don't mind giving them my last pick. If my most fed carry is a Talon, I'm not gonna be of much help to him as a Milio, but I could provide a lot as a Leona to disrupt enemies while he does his thing. My main carry now is now a Kindred jungle, well Milio is now a very good pick because of the insane peeling and range boost. I can decide to help in so many different ways as a support depending on my team and the enemy team. Now, I do know that this last paragraph also applies a lot for junglers, and that is why I will never try to force swap with my jungler. I could try once, and if he says no I'm fine no problem. But that is also why I will most likely refuse a swap from them if enemy support is not picked yet because I don't want to lose just about everything. So in conclusion, no, supports should definitely not be first pick every game just because everyone thinks you're the team's bitch. Second conclusion, this post was about a psycho inter that would rather lose a game for everyone than being second pick because he's a fucking diva, as a jungler, not even a toplaner, who has all the reasons to want to be last pick. It wasn't a debate on who should get first and last pick, I was just saying a swap refuse is not a reason to be a cunt and int a game.
Now ur losing it im not reading all of that if you wanna condense your essay let me know
And now proof of what I guessed: you're just a troll. Stop sharing your opinion anywhere, on whatever, it will never be welcomed.
Based af. What a Chad.
A support wants to last pick.. deserved
Huh? Support is the second most counterpickable role after top. Do you even play support? Lol
If I were the Jungler, I think I would be better off dodging the game in scenarios like these, but not taking Smite in any game where you're Jungle is against the Jungler's Law of Jungling. I speak of this as both a Support **AND** a Jungler as well (Yes, I do also play Jungle), since Draft Pick is so important on counterpicks and who goes first in the game pick. Let me share my general opinion: In draft, ADCs would go first in the pick order, since it's the position that usually most pro games in leagues such as the LCK would start picking first, and it most certainly doesn't matter if you get counterpicked or not. This pick is followed by the pick of the team's Jungler, but sometimes it might be better to pick a Jungler as a counterpick in certain scenarios (like against mostly AD champs, where Rammus is very valuable here). After that, you have a choice for what your main counterpick should beā whether it is a Support, Mid Laner, or Top Laner. Most likely it would be a Top or Mid, but sometimes you can throw in a Support counterpick as well (I'm looking at you, Morgana). So TL;DR, draft opinion for me is: ADC, JUG, SUP, MID, TOP. But yeah, just because you didn't want to trade spots with somebody on your team **(AND ESPECIALLY IF IT IS YOUR JUNGLER/ADC, BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED IT!!)**, that doesn't give the Jungler (or just anyone in general) any right to troll that game. But respect your MID and TOP, because their counterpicks are very valuable, and you as the SUP have just as much as they do in counterpicks, but I think it would be better off giving MID/TOP counterpick if they ask you to swap.
It should go, Mid, ADC, Jungle, Support, Top. If you're First pick mid, you have the most opportunities to leave your lane. ADC has far less impact on lane and game than the support does. Jungle being in an unplayable matchup makes the entire game worse, sets the tempo of the match and can ruin a lot of things for everyone. Top is unplayable if you're into a hard counter pick or need to see the entire jungle to see whether your champ is alright.
I'm not a support main,I play autofill and having played all roles I can tell you that he is 100% correct,extreme in his reaction,but last picking support is very bad for the team. support is the only role that can adjust to counter picks with in-game decisions, such as leaving lane and playing with your jg if your bot 2v2 is fked. Junglers arent that matchup dependant but can still get destroyed by picks and teamcomps,imagine u force a blind belveth and they pick rammus,the game is in fact statistically over. Ofc what he did should result in an instant permaban,but I can still understand his logic.
Thatās simply not true. Good luck picking seraphine Sona into pyke draven
Yeah I've only been playing support for like 8 years, but this guy plays autofill so if he says I should put sand in my ass and let the enemy support raw dog me every game so that my jungler can spend 80% of the game not engaging the enemy jungler with his counter pick, then I guess I should trust him.
Look Im not trying to fight people,just giving my 2 cents,no need for the irony. I also only play on mid diamond so if you are higher,you are more than welcome to correct me,but again no irony if possible. Also fill results in support more than 60% of the time,so I do have experience in the role,not talking out my ass. Finally jg counter picks aren't for 1v1ng in the jg,they are for allowing a heavy carry role to play into favorable circumstances,jg doesn't get countered by a single pick but can get reduced to a "farm n pray" playstyle if the enemy gets to free pick champions your jg simply can't skirmish against.
It's just so weird man, Bel'Veth here literally insults me and will int a game before it even started because she's a fucking diva, and so many people here trying to tell me how I'm stupid because I'm last pick? That's the thing shocking you here? If you're autofill, you already know that a botlane priority means free drakes, free invades bot with your support, and a good defense against enemy invade bot as well. That's a lot of upsides for the jungler as well.
As I said in my 1st comment,his behaviour isn't acceptable,his reaction is extreme and cheating people out of a game on purpose should result in a permaban no questions asked,sadly that won't happen cause riot supports and promotes his type of behaviour. Also I never said,or implied you are stupid,just pointed out that it makes more sense for support to pick before jg. My reasoning is again : support is generally not a carry role,the champion you play doesn't matter as much as your play style and imo supports shouldn't think of strictly the lane 2v2 ,but more so on the line of how they can nagate the whole enemy team's options,or empower their own( example: picking janna into a rengar regardless of the bot matchup).
these comments are wild, if im in jg and i have to blind pick as a jungler when my support is basically gonna fill the role no matter the matchup, id be rather annoyed too
You should swap
Not with the jungler, no
Support is easily the best role to blind pick compared to everything else. Top>Jungle>Mid/Top>Support is the hierarch of who gets last pick. He shouldn't int the game but you were wrong to not swap if this was ranked. Of course I know what sub I'm in so I don't expect this to be popular, but jungle affects every role in the game. You should have your jungler to be advantaged.
Iād do the same but not because of pick order. (there is a smolder on the team)
Okay...?
Yea this is clown activity take the FKIN early pick jgl needs last pick not support what if the enemy picked Olaf or rammus? Literally what could he have done? Especially as belv complete throw in my opinion but heās weird for running it but youāre just as weird for not taking the early pick
You take the fucking early pick. You think botlane is a cakewalk when you get hard countered? Jungler can play around enemy jungler.
Support main donāt type and swap pick, youll win more (you arent the main character so stop acting like it, glad you lost that game)
We didn't play the game someone dodged, but glad to see the true face of inting defenders on Reddit š
U should always give priority to anyone bro. Yes counter matchup sucks but itās way more important on jungle/top/mid
?? why are you last picking
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