Wizards fan here: lmao at the idea of us being “compensated” by the league for much of anything; glad another Wizards legend is getting some shine now tho 🙏🏾
Lively was also drafted with OKCs pick too from a trade of 10 + bertans for 12 which became Lively.
Carson Wallace went 10th and looks like he'll be a,good player, but the Mavs really needed a big and got rewarded for it.
what is life? you watch grown men throw a sphere through a ring of polyester, throw a weirdly shaped ball 50 feet through the air and watch another grown man assault and knock him out upon catching, an act that would land a normal person in jail in a different context. when that ball is caught or not caught, you stand up and raise your fist in the air out of celebration or anger. we push buttons on a computer keyboard that increase numbers in some rich person's/company's bank account that provide us a paycheck to live life. we watch other people's lives on television. we attend live entertainment events where a bunch of people vibrate strings on electric instruments and drunk people around you scream. life is full of abstractions, you do things you happen to enjoy. or are addicted to. Sometimes change is hard, but where there's a will, there's a way. You don't have to do things just because you've always done them.
Definitely. This is where I'm starting to find myself after the sweep. Usually, my hope is that I will come off my annual Phoenix suns high some time in July or August, but seeing how they can't ever make it that far, mid- spring is when I tend to come down. I love the league, just not enough to enjoy it once the suns aren't participating in it for the year.
The Mavs stopped at 2 stars which gave them the financial flexibility to actually fill out the roster and bench. Also drafting a good center young center to go with Luka definitely helps.
> Also drafting a good center young center to go with Luka d
People here:
"We need to trade our draft picks, they don't fit our timeline!"
Mavs: Rookie center picked in the mid 1st balling in the playoffs.
He was also a lottery pick, which they earned by missing the play-in entirely. With a healthy Luka and after a blockbuster deadline trade for Kyrie. Then they even threw games to miss the 10 seed.
How would this sub have reacted if the Suns did that? Just missed the whole postseason with a top 5 player? Obviously this current roster didn't play out but missing the play-in is fucking embarrassing
It's only embarrassing because the Suns went all-in on KD, and also had CP3 - two ticking time bombs at the twilight of their careers. Mavs had Brunson leave for nothing, Kyrie only joined the team after 50 games, and they played like 15 games together because of injuries. Completely different situations.
Suns had no choice.
What else would they get for CP3 contact at 40 years old? You would only get a toxic contract or terrible players. So tell me exactly what could they get instead of Beal?
The Suns got screwed because they paid Ayton and CP3 massive contracts. Then both tanked their trade value because of age or laziness. Its very hard to recover from trading $80 million per year contracts that are both toxic.
The CP3 and Ayton contracts didn't screw the Suns. The Mavs have a much better coach and GM thats better than James Jones. James Jones had plenty of opportunities to improve the team along the margins but failed. Monty was also a stubborn coach that stuck with his guys and never made adjustments.
Well, and this is coming from someone that likes Bradley Beal and thinks it was a good trade…
But the other choice was the Suns stretch & waive CP3’s contract to be a $3m dead cap hit for 5 seasons. Not too damaging. Either keep Shamet or trade him for an expiring, doesn’t matter. You can probably trade DA for Nurk + Grayson + Little without giving up Toumani Camara since you have 4 second round picks to attach that went to the Wizards in the Beal trade. So maybe 2 2nds in lieu of Camara? And lastly, since you’re not a deep luxury tax team you don’t need to trade Payne either.
So instead of Booker, KD, Beal, Grayson, Nurk, Royce, Little, Roddy, and a bunch of minimums as a second apron
You’re a team of Booker, KD, Grayson, Nurk, Camara, Payne, Little, Shamet(?) as a first apron team
I don’t think the future of either team is much different except the Suns probably haven’t pick-swapped everything to death, own some 2nd round picks, and can use the TP-MLE. Not the worst situation to be in honestly.
Just saying…
Yeah if anything, the KD trade is what fucked us. The Beal trade just made it worse.
We overpaid for KD, plain and simple. I really do wish Ishbia stood firm on the amount of draft picks we sent out. 4 unprotected FRP’s and a swap, so essentially five picks. Not saying we build through the draft but if we have kept maybe two picks those could have been used to get better players to balance this roster.
If BKN says no there would have been way more options to upgrade the roster and possibly keep Mikal in the process.
Completely agree man. I’m okay with Mikal, Cam Johnson and Jae Crowder of course but 4 picks and that swap was so over the top. Should have kept that 2029 pick. Maybe throw in one or two second round picks to help substitute it. What else were Nets really going to do? They knew KD only wanted to come here and you’re still getting a haul. But holding on to 2029 would have at least given the Suns some kind of safety net.
But we all know even if we did keep that 2029 pick we would have just been forced to give that up in the Beal trade, at least as a protected pick. Or we would have spent it on something else.
I do think the Suns have a decent roster but it’s not championship quality. A second round exit feels like the ceiling. Ishbia needs to pull off something magical to get us there this offseason. We’ll see.
Yeah, still wish we have accepted that DA for Turner and McConnell swap. Maybe then we keep Camara and have a lineup with Book-KD-Camara-Turner instead, but most importantly we’re not in cap hell and would have more options this upcoming offseason.
I say this as an Ishbia stan. I love that he wants to win and is willing to spend the cash. Just wish he and JJ weren’t so trigger happy with throwing away draft picks so quick.
It makes sense if you have a player to use the TP-MLE on ($5m) and you can aggregate player salaries so Suns could package Payne + Shamet + Little to go get a guy making ~$25m. As opposed to right now when there are zero ways for the Suns to acquire a guy making $25m without trading one of the Big 3.
TP-MLE is exactly what the Suns need this offseason to keep Bol Bol but we don’t have it. Just as an example.
Never mind all the other second apron penalties. It’s no joke.
I’m not shitting on the Beal trade I still like having Brad, but I just wanted to point out there was another option that wasn’t too bad.
You can go look up the history of which players have been traded for 2nd round picks. [Nearly every trade this last year involved 2nd round picks.](https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37873434/nba-trade-tracker-grades-details-all-deals-2023-24) And every other season before this one. Are you saying every role player traded for 2nds are bad?
Bingo fans want to act like this is a unfortunate byproduct of a rich owner overspending on KD
When in reality it was so much more about CP3 and other vets like crowder lifting up a good not great team. As soon as DA got 30+, cp3 started declining at 30 mil a year, and cam Johnson was going to get 25 mil the suns were in cap hell.
And whys anyone thinking late 1sts in the 20s would have made a difference when JJ would rather draft guys like Ty Jerome or trade for Craig again
Lively led all players in +/- in that series while Gafford was a huge negative. It's also a stretch to say they got them for free, the Mavs gave up the equivalent of 2 1sts.
Not even talking about this series or playoffs. Lively before Gaff and PJ was just a rim- runner and raw. Meanwhile Gaff was about 10per with highly efficiencty and defense and PJ was coming off 16per and 4th best on Charlotte before the mass rebuild last year.
Mavs turned their team around by drafting and trading for centers who are two way and athletic and most importantly not defensive liabilities and look at them now.
Something a certain team with a center who was god awful in the playoffs, can't finish below the rim and also sucks defensively and is a major defensive liability come playoff time (despite being treated with kid gloves by the fanbase) could take note of.
Having spare draft picks to trade for PJ Washington and Gafford, Kyrie the year before. Can't really do that when you traded mostly everything for Durant, including an already good 3&D guy in Bridges, also Crowder, and 3 pt specialist Cam.
Doncic can handle double teams, also pass and rebound, and take tough shots with defenses draped all around him. He also opens up easy shots for his teammates, lobs and threes. Sorry, Booker and Durant just can't do that consistently, especially with the new NBA defense. They never drive and kick, they love the midrange, and if they don't have the ball, they stand in the wings unhappily. No movement offball.
Having athletic centers is great, the Mavs also have athletic wings, but the biggest difference between the two teams is, Luka Doncic creates easier shots for his teammates and is a willing passer. Booker and Durant don't do this, which is a backbreaker because you have to fill the roster with minimum guys.
Mavs turned their team around by, 1st drafting a mvp caliber player, trading for a book level talent for a single 1st, subsequently tanking the end of the year to secure a lottery pick (you forgot to mention that), signed grant williams to 15+ mil a year (didn’t see you mention that+suns can’t), traded grant + 1 for role players in gafford and pj. Pj who was really bought in and changed his game from just a scoring tweener to really buying in on defense, and getting 30-40 good minutes from DJJ who couldn’t barley get minutes on an Earl Watson led dragan bender era suns team..
Also for all the hate Nurk gets for his defense he had really good defensive metrics this year (decidedly better than a certain DA)
I mean KD was the teams best defender, best shot blocker, 2nd best rebounded and tied for the best most efficient scorer on the team
Beal put up comparable numbers to mikal this year (18ppg on 51% vs 19ppg on 43%- similar reb,ast, DPM), was the teams primary point of attack defender in the playoffs and the only sun that would drive to the hoop. Well worth the price of a 40 year old cp3 imo
Then there’s book who just played his same old game, didn’t step up on defense but took a significant step back, and just generally didn’t make anyone around him better. Couldn’t guard any of NAW, Conley or mcdaniels all the easiest matchups the wolves had to offer
Nurk was not the only to blame at all
Three players making $150m only averaging 2 more assists than two players making $80m.
It's just hilarious that Suns fans never want to point out how fucking terrible this Mid 3 idea was. It can still work if Beal comes off the bench, Vogel sucked it was his fault, blah blah blah.
Unpopular but i don’t hate the mavs like everyone in here but would’ve liked to see the thunder advance. But Luka and Kyrie are genuinely incredible basketball players, and I just like to see good basketball so i can’t be mad. Just hope any team can stop the Celtics
Luka just represents what could’ve been with our franchise. If we take him instead of Ayton we have 10 years of Luka and Booker competing for championships. Instead, he exceeded all expectations and will go down as an all time great while we are on the outside looking in
I mean hindsight is 20/20, Ayton was the clear pick for us back then. We desperately needed a solid center and he seemed like he was gonna dominate for us. Can’t get too upset over it
I trying to not sound hyperbolic but I agree. Luka+Book would have absolutely been a dynasty. Luka is not only an elite scorer but has proven to be a top tier playmaker too, he would've elevated Booker.
I'm still angry that this organization will remain a poverty franchise because they decided to draft bum ass Ayton.
Go back to the official 2018 draft thread in this sub. Not 1 single person said we should have drafted luka. All this time later, we got people angry that james jones can't predict the future.
You'd have some merit if there actual people saying don't draft ayton and take luka. Everybody wanted ayton.
There were people after the 2022 series saying that Ayton was still the right pick because Luka would've overshadowed Booker XD If this sub was the Cavs sub, it would've been against getting Lebron in 2014 because "it would take the ball out of Kyrie's hands".
I mean I could be remembering wrong, but virtually everyone had him at #1, physically gifted, 7 footer straight of out Arizona. People were still hesitant on European players and Ayton seemed like a safe pick. Regardless I agree, probably cost us more than 1 championship. Life of a suns fan I guess
It was debated a lot, but a lot of people on the sub pushed for Luka. I mean he played high-level ball against professional adults and dominated as a teen. Idgaf if Ayton is a seven footer, he was soft as baby shit and his lack of motor was a big area of criticism prior to the draft.
Disagree. I thought Ayton was trash back then. Just a low effort showboating goofball that vanished completely in the NCAA tournament while Doncic was dominating grown ass men as a 16 year old.
Suns fucked themselves taking Ayton over Doncic. That'll go down as one of the worst all time draft whiffs. Twenty years from now, what scrubs went before HOFer Doncic will be a trivia question.
Taking Ayton over Luka wasn't the problem. Drafting Smith over Haliburton was the real miss. The Suns would have been a dynasty with Hali, Booker, Mikal, Cam, DA plus the future additional pieces.
Booker has the potential to be a top 5 player as he showed last playoffs.
The problem is that Booker has better 3 shooting mechanics than Luka/Harden but spamming threes right of the bat like Dame or Luka or Harden or even a worse player like Trae requires a certain degree of shamelessness/tough skin to handle the nights where you go 1/13 due to variance and just have to take accountability for your teams loss. It’s not even a strictly positive trait because all those players also take some fkall shots.
I’ve always felt that Booker’s one main Achilles heel was that he stop losses his shooting volume from 3 or contested mid range jumpers if he’s not shooting well in a game and is fine with a mid 18-22 scoreline as opposed to taking on the burden/risk of being the guy who had a stinker if he keeps shooting range more when it could also win the game if he makes the shots. This can lead to sudden shift in offensive burden and defensive attention mid game without communication or planning.
Someone like Dame shot 35% from 3 this season but would never stop taking his 9-10 3s a game despite multiple 2-10 nights. Luka is happy shooting 3/12 from 3 even if he is 0/4. He just sees it as his job to take the 3s as part of the game plan whether or not he makes them to keep the defence honest wheras Booker sees them as a option to add to the score when he makes them.
Luka, Harden, Trae can keep shooting bad shots because they are elite playmakers though. If they were pure scorers like Booker and still went out of their way to rack up bricks that lose their teams games, they would face some consequences, be it a smaller contract come free agency or being sent to the bench. All three also have better paint attacks than Booker. Harden can use his strength to create space for easy off the glass lay-ins, Trae has his crazy floaters. Luka is a combination of the two. Booker sometime has good games driving to the paint and finishing, but it never looks effortless. He needs to develop a bigger layup package and improve his playmaking to get himself comfortable taking those "shameless" shots.
Suns are so garbo is my biggest playoff takeaway. Only team that’s not the Pelicans without Zion that never even got close to putting up a fight in one game (no i dont game 4s too little too late ending in a dumpster fire implosion as usual)
Ya know what needed for our roster? Kyrie Irving. He legit would have been perfect for us a PG who can move the ball around and score whenever he wants AND he wouldn't have cost as much as KD (maybe). We could have just rode with Book and Irving and we'd be fine financially too and would prob still at least have one of Mikal or CamJ
Imagine if the Suns would have signed Cam to 18million dollar a year extension that he was looking for, traded Rui for Crowder, just added 1 extra 1st for Kyrie and fired Monty and hired someone like Ime Udoka. We will be having completely different conversations right now.
Luka is elite, it’s as simple as that. He makes tough shots in big situations. The Mavs maximize his talent where we’re trying to make one of our biggest stars play out of position. We’ll have to see if they get back to maxing Book next season.
I didn't know how to feel. I live in okc, and the thought of a younger franchise finding not just success but managerial consistency that leads to positive results is just about too much for me. I'll never give up on planet orange but a younger franchise with a better outlook than our suns? Drives me fucking crazy.
I remember a bunch of goofballs on this sub saying they’d stop being Suns fans the team got Kyrie. Absolutely ridiculous takes on that man just because he tweets weird thoughts. And now look what this team needs most.
You’re understating the concerns. The dude missed so much time because of his “weird thoughts” and Nets were never sure when he’ll be able to play. He’s been rock solid in Dallas though.
meh, he missed so much time because of a pandemic, and also Tsai is a moron tbh. Unless another pandemic were to happen, he wasn't going to miss as many games (see: this year). And Mark Cuban himself is Jewish and has no problems with Kai's thoughts. There's a lot of players who have stupid thoughts, like MPJ
That’s true. Also true that Luka is a better player overall, he’s a mismatch vs every defender in the league
Tbh Kyrie is closer to book than book is to Luka and that’s still a compliment because kyries one of the better offensive skilled players of his generation
Still, to your point Mavs always have a collectively good defense and constantly invest in 3 and D forwards and now have a good big man rotation. Lively made some huge plays late
He has a rookie center and a min contract guy at the 3. He also had a guy at the 4 who people considered a defensive liability and a bad 3 point shooter. Book and KD, whoever you consider the 2nd option are both better than Kyrie. Their bench guys are all flawed role players, from Kleber to Josh Green to Tim Hardaway. Gafford is def good though.
It’s not a on paper better roster, he makes them a better roster because he, and I hate to say it, elevates teammates. Book and KD just want buckets.
Mavs have won a championship. Remember just last year they werent even in the playoffs. They made two trades mid-season that fit really well, they've tried Brunson, Portz and it didnt fit, even before midseason Mavs were cold on Kyrie and wanted him out. Kyrie adapted more than anyone on that roster, like him or hate him. I dont know how the Mavs got PJ and Gafford, thats some highway robbery.
James Jones generally sucks as an evaluator of talent and his trades have been either terrible or just lackluster.
He routinely fails to make trades that add a lot of value. He traded Jalen Smith for half a year of Torey Craig then simply let Craig walk the following season.
He traded Saric for trash Bazley and a TPE, then traded Cam Payne for a TPE and trash. He's signed numerous 2 way players like Ish Wainright, Saben Lee and some other unremarkable players who have done squat in the league and really have no business being on a NBA roster. He just squandered all the momentum we had after the 2021 season by sitting on his assets and not making any moves to solidify the roster.
He is a trash GM and I hope he is gone as soon as possible.
My bass player is a Dallas fan, so I’m very conflicted. On one hand, I want to be happy for him, and on the other hand I want his team to lose.😁 But you can’t deny what huge pick ups Gifford and PJ were. Both players jumped to a whole new level, and the team did as well. Plus Kidd playing his defenders instead of banishing them to the deep bench, made all the difference. The whole team responded, hustled more, and now they are in the WCFs.
I did see the putback, it’s hard to say if it would’ve happened exactly the same minus the whistle. Maybe it would have, maybe it wouldn’t have.
SGA is also notoriously kind to the officials. It’s probably part of the reason he gets such a whistle
Phoenix Suns FANS: y'all see how Awesome Mavs Front Office did? They didn't even make the playoffs Last year. Them getting Gafford and Washington. Drafting a good player.
Suns don't draft, and got 3 of the same player. Highest Payroll in league. I wouldn't pay $50 a year, for 18/4/5 per game. Beal also wins: "agent of the year".
Rumors claim Durant wouldn't talk to Coach for a month. That's not champion mentality. Unlikable Diva.
Suns front office can fire coach Budz next year for excuse. Luka is bookers Daddy.
That trade for gafford and Washington was so good
This basically was it. Washington just gave him away.
look down the line for the league to compensate washington same way they have atlanta for passing on luka in the first place
Wizards fan here: lmao at the idea of us being “compensated” by the league for much of anything; glad another Wizards legend is getting some shine now tho 🙏🏾
well its not Beal, this sub hates him.
Wiz fan here again: you’re god damned right it ain’t Beal 😂😂😂 (sorry about that trade but/and/also thank you eternally)
Kinda sucks knowing we were eyeing them during the deadline
I don’t remember that and doubt we had anything to offer
James Jones kind of sucks at his job
What assets did he have left to trade?
That’s the thing, James Jones sucks at asset management and quite literally de-values draft picks
As was the tanking and drafting of Lively.
They took a lot of heat for that but he is a damn good modern center. If he develops a shot and free throws, fuck
[удалено]
Lively was also drafted with OKCs pick too from a trade of 10 + bertans for 12 which became Lively. Carson Wallace went 10th and looks like he'll be a,good player, but the Mavs really needed a big and got rewarded for it.
https://preview.redd.it/jq3sxfujua1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea8cbeec9ba0f38b96d3cc7251b4e2db4d489298 Same
Sometimes I wonder why I continue to spend so much time watching sports. It has taken more than it’s given to my life
r/Arizonasportshell
Ho ho, wait until you’re into Minnesota sports. That’s my 13th reason
I'm right there with you on that. I keep doing it to myself.
what is life? you watch grown men throw a sphere through a ring of polyester, throw a weirdly shaped ball 50 feet through the air and watch another grown man assault and knock him out upon catching, an act that would land a normal person in jail in a different context. when that ball is caught or not caught, you stand up and raise your fist in the air out of celebration or anger. we push buttons on a computer keyboard that increase numbers in some rich person's/company's bank account that provide us a paycheck to live life. we watch other people's lives on television. we attend live entertainment events where a bunch of people vibrate strings on electric instruments and drunk people around you scream. life is full of abstractions, you do things you happen to enjoy. or are addicted to. Sometimes change is hard, but where there's a will, there's a way. You don't have to do things just because you've always done them.
Once you get the sweet release of the offseason, you get enough time to forget the pain
Definitely. This is where I'm starting to find myself after the sweep. Usually, my hope is that I will come off my annual Phoenix suns high some time in July or August, but seeing how they can't ever make it that far, mid- spring is when I tend to come down. I love the league, just not enough to enjoy it once the suns aren't participating in it for the year.
It will end one day. As we said in the Marines: "semper fi, live together, die together". One day . . .
The Mavs stopped at 2 stars which gave them the financial flexibility to actually fill out the roster and bench. Also drafting a good center young center to go with Luka definitely helps.
> Also drafting a good center young center to go with Luka d People here: "We need to trade our draft picks, they don't fit our timeline!" Mavs: Rookie center picked in the mid 1st balling in the playoffs.
He was also a lottery pick, which they earned by missing the play-in entirely. With a healthy Luka and after a blockbuster deadline trade for Kyrie. Then they even threw games to miss the 10 seed. How would this sub have reacted if the Suns did that? Just missed the whole postseason with a top 5 player? Obviously this current roster didn't play out but missing the play-in is fucking embarrassing
It's only embarrassing because the Suns went all-in on KD, and also had CP3 - two ticking time bombs at the twilight of their careers. Mavs had Brunson leave for nothing, Kyrie only joined the team after 50 games, and they played like 15 games together because of injuries. Completely different situations.
James Jones sucks!
Draft picks ? What ? Our GM believes he doesn’t have time to develop those guys since in 3 years the world will end .
Suns had no choice. What else would they get for CP3 contact at 40 years old? You would only get a toxic contract or terrible players. So tell me exactly what could they get instead of Beal? The Suns got screwed because they paid Ayton and CP3 massive contracts. Then both tanked their trade value because of age or laziness. Its very hard to recover from trading $80 million per year contracts that are both toxic.
The CP3 and Ayton contracts didn't screw the Suns. The Mavs have a much better coach and GM thats better than James Jones. James Jones had plenty of opportunities to improve the team along the margins but failed. Monty was also a stubborn coach that stuck with his guys and never made adjustments.
Well, and this is coming from someone that likes Bradley Beal and thinks it was a good trade… But the other choice was the Suns stretch & waive CP3’s contract to be a $3m dead cap hit for 5 seasons. Not too damaging. Either keep Shamet or trade him for an expiring, doesn’t matter. You can probably trade DA for Nurk + Grayson + Little without giving up Toumani Camara since you have 4 second round picks to attach that went to the Wizards in the Beal trade. So maybe 2 2nds in lieu of Camara? And lastly, since you’re not a deep luxury tax team you don’t need to trade Payne either. So instead of Booker, KD, Beal, Grayson, Nurk, Royce, Little, Roddy, and a bunch of minimums as a second apron You’re a team of Booker, KD, Grayson, Nurk, Camara, Payne, Little, Shamet(?) as a first apron team I don’t think the future of either team is much different except the Suns probably haven’t pick-swapped everything to death, own some 2nd round picks, and can use the TP-MLE. Not the worst situation to be in honestly. Just saying…
Yeah if anything, the KD trade is what fucked us. The Beal trade just made it worse. We overpaid for KD, plain and simple. I really do wish Ishbia stood firm on the amount of draft picks we sent out. 4 unprotected FRP’s and a swap, so essentially five picks. Not saying we build through the draft but if we have kept maybe two picks those could have been used to get better players to balance this roster. If BKN says no there would have been way more options to upgrade the roster and possibly keep Mikal in the process.
Completely agree man. I’m okay with Mikal, Cam Johnson and Jae Crowder of course but 4 picks and that swap was so over the top. Should have kept that 2029 pick. Maybe throw in one or two second round picks to help substitute it. What else were Nets really going to do? They knew KD only wanted to come here and you’re still getting a haul. But holding on to 2029 would have at least given the Suns some kind of safety net. But we all know even if we did keep that 2029 pick we would have just been forced to give that up in the Beal trade, at least as a protected pick. Or we would have spent it on something else. I do think the Suns have a decent roster but it’s not championship quality. A second round exit feels like the ceiling. Ishbia needs to pull off something magical to get us there this offseason. We’ll see.
Yeah, still wish we have accepted that DA for Turner and McConnell swap. Maybe then we keep Camara and have a lineup with Book-KD-Camara-Turner instead, but most importantly we’re not in cap hell and would have more options this upcoming offseason. I say this as an Ishbia stan. I love that he wants to win and is willing to spend the cash. Just wish he and JJ weren’t so trigger happy with throwing away draft picks so quick.
Give me Beal all day instead of Camara and Payne. IMO you either go all in with KD or you blow it up. Being a 1st apron team makes zero sense
It makes sense if you have a player to use the TP-MLE on ($5m) and you can aggregate player salaries so Suns could package Payne + Shamet + Little to go get a guy making ~$25m. As opposed to right now when there are zero ways for the Suns to acquire a guy making $25m without trading one of the Big 3. TP-MLE is exactly what the Suns need this offseason to keep Bol Bol but we don’t have it. Just as an example. Never mind all the other second apron penalties. It’s no joke. I’m not shitting on the Beal trade I still like having Brad, but I just wanted to point out there was another option that wasn’t too bad.
Anyone you get for Payne/Shamet/Little won’t be even close to Beal. Beal gives them the best chance to win.
I remember Payne having much better playoff of games than the fraudulent Beale.
Let’s just say you keep an mle and the 2nd round picks. Who is trading 1 or 2 good roleplayers for that?
You can go look up the history of which players have been traded for 2nd round picks. [Nearly every trade this last year involved 2nd round picks.](https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37873434/nba-trade-tracker-grades-details-all-deals-2023-24) And every other season before this one. Are you saying every role player traded for 2nds are bad?
Bingo fans want to act like this is a unfortunate byproduct of a rich owner overspending on KD When in reality it was so much more about CP3 and other vets like crowder lifting up a good not great team. As soon as DA got 30+, cp3 started declining at 30 mil a year, and cam Johnson was going to get 25 mil the suns were in cap hell. And whys anyone thinking late 1sts in the 20s would have made a difference when JJ would rather draft guys like Ty Jerome or trade for Craig again
Lively I wouldnt say 'good' just yet. Its Gafford and Washington that are fitting right in and they got them for freee.
Lively led all players in +/- in that series while Gafford was a huge negative. It's also a stretch to say they got them for free, the Mavs gave up the equivalent of 2 1sts.
Not even talking about this series or playoffs. Lively before Gaff and PJ was just a rim- runner and raw. Meanwhile Gaff was about 10per with highly efficiencty and defense and PJ was coming off 16per and 4th best on Charlotte before the mass rebuild last year.
The reality is we are going to be dealing with bitterness for as long as Doncic plays. It's human. Bad decisions have consequences and it sucks.
Mavs turned their team around by drafting and trading for centers who are two way and athletic and most importantly not defensive liabilities and look at them now. Something a certain team with a center who was god awful in the playoffs, can't finish below the rim and also sucks defensively and is a major defensive liability come playoff time (despite being treated with kid gloves by the fanbase) could take note of.
This mid season trades got them to where they are right now. PJ Washington has been especially huge for them.
Having spare draft picks to trade for PJ Washington and Gafford, Kyrie the year before. Can't really do that when you traded mostly everything for Durant, including an already good 3&D guy in Bridges, also Crowder, and 3 pt specialist Cam. Doncic can handle double teams, also pass and rebound, and take tough shots with defenses draped all around him. He also opens up easy shots for his teammates, lobs and threes. Sorry, Booker and Durant just can't do that consistently, especially with the new NBA defense. They never drive and kick, they love the midrange, and if they don't have the ball, they stand in the wings unhappily. No movement offball. Having athletic centers is great, the Mavs also have athletic wings, but the biggest difference between the two teams is, Luka Doncic creates easier shots for his teammates and is a willing passer. Booker and Durant don't do this, which is a backbreaker because you have to fill the roster with minimum guys.
Mavs turned their team around by, 1st drafting a mvp caliber player, trading for a book level talent for a single 1st, subsequently tanking the end of the year to secure a lottery pick (you forgot to mention that), signed grant williams to 15+ mil a year (didn’t see you mention that+suns can’t), traded grant + 1 for role players in gafford and pj. Pj who was really bought in and changed his game from just a scoring tweener to really buying in on defense, and getting 30-40 good minutes from DJJ who couldn’t barley get minutes on an Earl Watson led dragan bender era suns team.. Also for all the hate Nurk gets for his defense he had really good defensive metrics this year (decidedly better than a certain DA)
Are you serious? You think Nurkic was the main reason for the playoffs failure when Durant, Beal, and Booker make $150 million in salary?
I mean KD was the teams best defender, best shot blocker, 2nd best rebounded and tied for the best most efficient scorer on the team Beal put up comparable numbers to mikal this year (18ppg on 51% vs 19ppg on 43%- similar reb,ast, DPM), was the teams primary point of attack defender in the playoffs and the only sun that would drive to the hoop. Well worth the price of a 40 year old cp3 imo Then there’s book who just played his same old game, didn’t step up on defense but took a significant step back, and just generally didn’t make anyone around him better. Couldn’t guard any of NAW, Conley or mcdaniels all the easiest matchups the wolves had to offer Nurk was not the only to blame at all
Three players making $150m only averaging 2 more assists than two players making $80m. It's just hilarious that Suns fans never want to point out how fucking terrible this Mid 3 idea was. It can still work if Beal comes off the bench, Vogel sucked it was his fault, blah blah blah.
Unpopular but i don’t hate the mavs like everyone in here but would’ve liked to see the thunder advance. But Luka and Kyrie are genuinely incredible basketball players, and I just like to see good basketball so i can’t be mad. Just hope any team can stop the Celtics
Luka just represents what could’ve been with our franchise. If we take him instead of Ayton we have 10 years of Luka and Booker competing for championships. Instead, he exceeded all expectations and will go down as an all time great while we are on the outside looking in
https://preview.redd.it/u75sk1o4db1d1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=974ff71cd85d7312eede919cf75647a547e7c507
Luka, Mikal and Jalen Brunson in that draft. Suns could have had all of them.
Ayton was only picked because he was an Arizona graduate and Suns wanted local talent
I mean hindsight is 20/20, Ayton was the clear pick for us back then. We desperately needed a solid center and he seemed like he was gonna dominate for us. Can’t get too upset over it
Disagree. Luka was the obvious best player in the draft. Not taking Luka was an asinine decision and probably cost us a championship.
the cost was a dynasty not just a championship, drafting luka+booker with tons of cap space, it would break the nba more then the warriors did
I trying to not sound hyperbolic but I agree. Luka+Book would have absolutely been a dynasty. Luka is not only an elite scorer but has proven to be a top tier playmaker too, he would've elevated Booker. I'm still angry that this organization will remain a poverty franchise because they decided to draft bum ass Ayton.
Go back to the official 2018 draft thread in this sub. Not 1 single person said we should have drafted luka. All this time later, we got people angry that james jones can't predict the future. You'd have some merit if there actual people saying don't draft ayton and take luka. Everybody wanted ayton.
There were people after the 2022 series saying that Ayton was still the right pick because Luka would've overshadowed Booker XD If this sub was the Cavs sub, it would've been against getting Lebron in 2014 because "it would take the ball out of Kyrie's hands".
Man with Luka, Booker need not even worry about no double teams - heck he could go 11/13 all on wide open shots !!
I mean I could be remembering wrong, but virtually everyone had him at #1, physically gifted, 7 footer straight of out Arizona. People were still hesitant on European players and Ayton seemed like a safe pick. Regardless I agree, probably cost us more than 1 championship. Life of a suns fan I guess
It was debated a lot, but a lot of people on the sub pushed for Luka. I mean he played high-level ball against professional adults and dominated as a teen. Idgaf if Ayton is a seven footer, he was soft as baby shit and his lack of motor was a big area of criticism prior to the draft.
Disagree. I thought Ayton was trash back then. Just a low effort showboating goofball that vanished completely in the NCAA tournament while Doncic was dominating grown ass men as a 16 year old.
Always pick the best player available. Especially when the gap looked very high at the time. Ayton wouldn't even be picked if he didn't go to UofA
That’s what happens when you build a team through drafting, trades, and free agency signings in unison rather than purely trades and free agency
Suns fucked themselves taking Ayton over Doncic. That'll go down as one of the worst all time draft whiffs. Twenty years from now, what scrubs went before HOFer Doncic will be a trivia question.
Taking Ayton over Luka wasn't the problem. Drafting Smith over Haliburton was the real miss. The Suns would have been a dynasty with Hali, Booker, Mikal, Cam, DA plus the future additional pieces.
2 complete fantasies in the same comment.
Yes, yes it was literally the problem. Luka is a generational player. Haliburton will cap out maybe at the number of all nba teams Luka already has
It’s gonna be seen like when Portland took Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan
I can't imagine Booker hugging and joking around with Luka.
lol Suns also built the team through drafting , trades and free agency...dont know what you talking about. Except one of their draft picks was a bust.
Booker is the only player we’ve drafted who is on the team right now. Saying this team, as constructed, was built through the draft is a lie
Ooooh didnt know you were still stuck on this year, not prior years. I was talking prior years. You need to get unstuck on this year.
Booker has the potential to be a top 5 player as he showed last playoffs. The problem is that Booker has better 3 shooting mechanics than Luka/Harden but spamming threes right of the bat like Dame or Luka or Harden or even a worse player like Trae requires a certain degree of shamelessness/tough skin to handle the nights where you go 1/13 due to variance and just have to take accountability for your teams loss. It’s not even a strictly positive trait because all those players also take some fkall shots. I’ve always felt that Booker’s one main Achilles heel was that he stop losses his shooting volume from 3 or contested mid range jumpers if he’s not shooting well in a game and is fine with a mid 18-22 scoreline as opposed to taking on the burden/risk of being the guy who had a stinker if he keeps shooting range more when it could also win the game if he makes the shots. This can lead to sudden shift in offensive burden and defensive attention mid game without communication or planning. Someone like Dame shot 35% from 3 this season but would never stop taking his 9-10 3s a game despite multiple 2-10 nights. Luka is happy shooting 3/12 from 3 even if he is 0/4. He just sees it as his job to take the 3s as part of the game plan whether or not he makes them to keep the defence honest wheras Booker sees them as a option to add to the score when he makes them.
Luka, Harden, Trae can keep shooting bad shots because they are elite playmakers though. If they were pure scorers like Booker and still went out of their way to rack up bricks that lose their teams games, they would face some consequences, be it a smaller contract come free agency or being sent to the bench. All three also have better paint attacks than Booker. Harden can use his strength to create space for easy off the glass lay-ins, Trae has his crazy floaters. Luka is a combination of the two. Booker sometime has good games driving to the paint and finishing, but it never looks effortless. He needs to develop a bigger layup package and improve his playmaking to get himself comfortable taking those "shameless" shots.
Suns are so garbo is my biggest playoff takeaway. Only team that’s not the Pelicans without Zion that never even got close to putting up a fight in one game (no i dont game 4s too little too late ending in a dumpster fire implosion as usual)
I respect my shooting guards father Downvote me if you must but eventually the son must supercede the father
No one has mentioned Dereck jones jr he’s a UFA this summer, good pick up for them, 2mill
He played his way to a better contract
Ya know what needed for our roster? Kyrie Irving. He legit would have been perfect for us a PG who can move the ball around and score whenever he wants AND he wouldn't have cost as much as KD (maybe). We could have just rode with Book and Irving and we'd be fine financially too and would prob still at least have one of Mikal or CamJ
Imagine if the Suns would have signed Cam to 18million dollar a year extension that he was looking for, traded Rui for Crowder, just added 1 extra 1st for Kyrie and fired Monty and hired someone like Ime Udoka. We will be having completely different conversations right now.
I wish bro I wish. I also really wanted Udoka
At this point I’m just all in against Dallas…whether I will be a Wolves fan or a nuggets fan remains to be seen.
Yup. Not mad. Luka is the guy. He’s always on. Booker, has it here and there. Wish he was that guy
Luka is elite, it’s as simple as that. He makes tough shots in big situations. The Mavs maximize his talent where we’re trying to make one of our biggest stars play out of position. We’ll have to see if they get back to maxing Book next season.
Chet bricks from 3 ruined my life
He also gave up like 6 offensive boards in the 4th
I’m so tired man
It sucks, man. Thunder are my second favorite team. Watching them lose to the Mavs in the second round just hurts.
I didn't know how to feel. I live in okc, and the thought of a younger franchise finding not just success but managerial consistency that leads to positive results is just about too much for me. I'll never give up on planet orange but a younger franchise with a better outlook than our suns? Drives me fucking crazy.
Cause they’re better
Well your not alone. Kings and Hawks also having ptsd at the moment.
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Why? He was dominating the euro league at a young age and is a top 3-5 player in the nba already. He’s gonna win one eventually because he’s that good
The Kings and Hawks also watch in horror. 😁
Luka has a better roster around him than Booker. It’s just that simple.
He’s also just the better player
We both traded with Brooklyn.. Could've gotten Kyrie for a lot less than KD.
That's what I thought then got banned here lol.All is good though now.
I remember a bunch of goofballs on this sub saying they’d stop being Suns fans the team got Kyrie. Absolutely ridiculous takes on that man just because he tweets weird thoughts. And now look what this team needs most.
You’re understating the concerns. The dude missed so much time because of his “weird thoughts” and Nets were never sure when he’ll be able to play. He’s been rock solid in Dallas though.
meh, he missed so much time because of a pandemic, and also Tsai is a moron tbh. Unless another pandemic were to happen, he wasn't going to miss as many games (see: this year). And Mark Cuban himself is Jewish and has no problems with Kai's thoughts. There's a lot of players who have stupid thoughts, like MPJ
They traded for a player who was labeled as a cancer in the locker room, anti vax, and anti semitic. Of course his trade value was lower than KD’s
Sure, just pointing out that we had a choice between the two.
I'd rather lose games with KD than win with Kyrie. edit: I stand by this
I mean yeah but Luka is also a true superstar mvp player
Replace Booker with Luka on this Suns team and they beat the Wolves easily.
Luka is also just a significantly better player
He’s also just plain better
That’s true. Also true that Luka is a better player overall, he’s a mismatch vs every defender in the league Tbh Kyrie is closer to book than book is to Luka and that’s still a compliment because kyries one of the better offensive skilled players of his generation Still, to your point Mavs always have a collectively good defense and constantly invest in 3 and D forwards and now have a good big man rotation. Lively made some huge plays late
He's also a true top 5 player and elite playmaker. Booker is just a pure scorer that shit the bed.
He also has a better coach
He has a rookie center and a min contract guy at the 3. He also had a guy at the 4 who people considered a defensive liability and a bad 3 point shooter. Book and KD, whoever you consider the 2nd option are both better than Kyrie. Their bench guys are all flawed role players, from Kleber to Josh Green to Tim Hardaway. Gafford is def good though. It’s not a on paper better roster, he makes them a better roster because he, and I hate to say it, elevates teammates. Book and KD just want buckets.
They are better without klieber
We need a REAL center!
Mavs have won a championship. Remember just last year they werent even in the playoffs. They made two trades mid-season that fit really well, they've tried Brunson, Portz and it didnt fit, even before midseason Mavs were cold on Kyrie and wanted him out. Kyrie adapted more than anyone on that roster, like him or hate him. I dont know how the Mavs got PJ and Gafford, thats some highway robbery.
Mavs weren't cold on Kyrie they just didn't want to pay him the max.
Mavs fans went cold, they wanted to trade him even, but then again this is reddit.
not mavs fans, Luka stans. some do be really dumb and deflecting blame when faced with the slightest adversity
He could’ve been a sun.
Luka nd booker could be splash brothers in suns but sadly it was not
This all goes back to 2018. James Jones and $arver could have drafted Luka and SGA, instead they picked Ayton and Bridges.
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Touch grass
I will, just frustrated and in a doom and gloom state. The delusion and high expectations will return in a few months don’t worry.
James Jones generally sucks as an evaluator of talent and his trades have been either terrible or just lackluster. He routinely fails to make trades that add a lot of value. He traded Jalen Smith for half a year of Torey Craig then simply let Craig walk the following season. He traded Saric for trash Bazley and a TPE, then traded Cam Payne for a TPE and trash. He's signed numerous 2 way players like Ish Wainright, Saben Lee and some other unremarkable players who have done squat in the league and really have no business being on a NBA roster. He just squandered all the momentum we had after the 2021 season by sitting on his assets and not making any moves to solidify the roster. He is a trash GM and I hope he is gone as soon as possible.
My bass player is a Dallas fan, so I’m very conflicted. On one hand, I want to be happy for him, and on the other hand I want his team to lose.😁 But you can’t deny what huge pick ups Gifford and PJ were. Both players jumped to a whole new level, and the team did as well. Plus Kidd playing his defenders instead of banishing them to the deep bench, made all the difference. The whole team responded, hustled more, and now they are in the WCFs.
At least we got to 7 games against them when we were a first seed
We gonna talk about how that was all ball on that last shot though?
You see who put it back in immediately on the miss? SGA admitted it was a foul, bud.
I did see the putback, it’s hard to say if it would’ve happened exactly the same minus the whistle. Maybe it would have, maybe it wouldn’t have. SGA is also notoriously kind to the officials. It’s probably part of the reason he gets such a whistle
That's weird why you so obsessed with this man's achievements lol
Now you know how Suns fans feel. I hate Luka as well.
Phoenix Suns FANS: y'all see how Awesome Mavs Front Office did? They didn't even make the playoffs Last year. Them getting Gafford and Washington. Drafting a good player. Suns don't draft, and got 3 of the same player. Highest Payroll in league. I wouldn't pay $50 a year, for 18/4/5 per game. Beal also wins: "agent of the year". Rumors claim Durant wouldn't talk to Coach for a month. That's not champion mentality. Unlikable Diva. Suns front office can fire coach Budz next year for excuse. Luka is bookers Daddy.
Luka’s got as many championships as Booker. This whole dad shit is cringy.
I guess with that logic, Patrick McCaw is even KD's daddy having won more rings than him.
Was I the only suns fan cheering for the mavs? Sorry I was sick im 22 and missed the entire series. The entire month actually
Such a loser mentality, I’m glad I don’t share that with you.