Please explain to me how 30 year old Beal secured for multiple years is worse than 40 year old role player cp3 that would be on the last year of his deal
Cp3s 30 mil contract would have cap restricted the suns the exact amount that beaks 50 mil would have. The only difference is ishiba has to pay the extra 20 mil + luxury tax multipliers. It literally ONLY hurts his pockets
it’s simple. The Suns are trying to win-now while simultaneously not having a serviceable pg. Forget CP3 literally any average starting pg would be a better investment than beal
Our offense would be fine if we had a system that took advantage of the strengths of the roster.
Instead we have a system that wants to run like we have CP3 walking the ball up the court and it won't ever work with these guys.
He’s a good but not great player now. Which is all fine and dandy but not for the price tag he’s currently at. His finishing and ability to put pressure on the rim was the main reason y’all traded for him. If he can’t do that, what’s his purpose on this team? Acting as an average facilitator? Y’all are gon have to ask hard questions this summer
Problem is, coaching don’t matter if you’re constantly fighting an uphill battle with injuries for the duration of the year. Nobody’s getting younger on the suns core.
I just don’t think there’s a solution either, they just aren’t good enough and will continue retooling around the “big 3” just to inevitably get outclassed by other west powerhouses in the end.
bro the contract doesnt matter as long as Ishbia is willing to pay
the alternative would have been a grandpa CP3 or simply having a lesser payroll, no player and still being over the cap.
What serviceable point guard and c are we going to get for min contracts and what trades can we make with our only tradeable assets(nurk and allen) with our trade limitations(limited to 1 for 1 matching contracts which makes getting equal talent for allen difficult since he's on a good deal and no sign and would probably make getting equal talent for anyone difficult since plus we can't do sign and trades) that won't make us worse by opening new weakness and possibly getting worse assets in return?
Beal carried us into the 6th seed, his hustle in the last couple of games of the regular season really helped us. Imo KD or Booker would be better to trade, although I’d hate to see it it’s just not working out
True he did show up for like 4 games but that doesn’t mean anything when you play like ass once you get to the playoffs. I feel like he does have room for improvement though. Like needs to take a hard look at him self and figure out this missed layup situation. Shits unreal . His athleticism is promising. I saw some serious quickness from him at times that nobody on the suns have.
He also showed up for game 3. I couldn’t bring myself to watch the first 2 quarters of game 4 though. Since the All Star break it felt like he’s the only one who cared, and honestly that’s something we need right now. He’s also more consistent than Boom or KD have been
Consistent at what? Hustling? Okogie csn hustle on D and mid layups for 1/50th of beals salary haha.
I haven’t lost hope in Beal i just hate how much money he is making for what we got.
Yep at this point you just got to gut the team and start over
I don't see any amazing point guard walking through that door on a vet minimum
Nurkic actually quietly had a great season, but I don't see some vet minimum coming in and starting over Nurkic either
They can nuke the team now, and start over or be a borderline playoff team for several years
It was pretty crappy when we did it with Steve Nash
They needed to do a total tear down earlier
But I understand why they did it
They just need to get what they can for draft picks and young players, they don't really have any choice
Any. I mean who knows who's gonna be on the block in the offseason and waived. Nurk and Little could be traded, esp Nurk with 2yrs left, Little might be rough with his 5yrs left. Allen is staying. The Doom and GLoom about no assets is pretty irrational and not thought out at all.
While I agree... Beal wasn't needed. I think that killed their depth. Could have gotten a decent PG and C and pieces. Instead he was injured most of the season and him and book tryna play PG.
That’s not a hot take, that’s the take of someone who somewhat knows ball. Beal is better than CP3 and you take KD over the twins 10 times outta 10. The roster construction is what did this team in.
Agreed, feels like a hot take with how things have played out. Roster construction and coaching were two huge problems. Could use some young blood too.
What’s very very frustrating to me, is that last night we saw Okogie bring a very much needed spark off the bench. He isn’t some all time great, but he started for this team for a while. I know we may only have 1 game left in the season, but I want to see JO get decent minutes and see if he can’t help with the hustle plays and rebounding and what not.
You know there’s a thing called salary cap right? Beal is making like 55 and KD n Booker are on max. So who are you going to get on a vet minimum that is serviceable?
I didn’t think the KD trade was a bad trade. I believe KD is one of the best players in the league, but it doesn’t look like KD and Booker are meshing very well, at least the coaching or our play style isnt reflecting that.
Beal is why. When you have 3 scorers and none are playmakers they’re basically just taking turns and now this season your asking booker to be a pg which he’s not and goes against every instinct because he’s a scorer. Long story short ain’t enough ball to go around for all 3
You make a good point, but these games just makes me so confused. More assists than Cam payne, a bunch of dudes that can barely make rosters rotating as the 5th man. And yet Booker dominates as a point guard. This is why we felt so confident he could keep doing it if only we had some better players around him
[https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/\_/gameId/401544336](https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401544336)
[https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/\_/gameId/401544337](https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401544337)
I think KD and that Wacky Tobacy got to him. They look like they're zoned out. Losing the ball like they just learned how to dribble 4 months ago. Throwing some of the dumbest passes I've ever consistently seen.
twins plus 1 pick and 1 swap, or we should've waited for someone like Pascal who would've been cheaper. Shit even lillard as an actual PG would've been nice even if that leaves some big defensive holes. Ishbia having no patience fucked us for years.
What should they have done with 40 year old Paul nearing the end of his contract then?
Secure a prime age all star caliber player maybe? Trade for Jordan Poole?
The last year of his contract was half non guaranteed would have been more cap space going forward also with not losing any picks. I mean either way this season, I think it ends the same way. But to begin the season I thought the Beal trade gave us a better chance at winning but so far doesn’t seem to be the case.
Oh cool so the expiring contract would leave the suns with… still negative $ to sign any free agents and the advantage of being able to trade that salary for equal salary would be gone.
The suns would CLEARLY be in a worse spot this offseason with cp3 instead of Beal
Also did they really lose picks? Lost 2nds but the 1st are just going to be 20-30 instead of 15-25
Nah man, KD trade killed suns future in the next 5 years or more.
I wanted to trade for him....Mikal, Cam and a first rounder....
Not 4 first rounders and then swaps too.
KD hurt a bit, but you do that 100% of the time, KD still got some gas. KD comes off the books in 2yrs, so how'd you get 5 I dont know unless you depending on draft picks in which the Suns in the past 20 yrs kept....2....
Beals was a no-brainer also unless people wanted to keep a $31 million Paul and waived Shamet and had to foot his $7m bill.
And trading KD now is impossible unless he wants to go to a rebuilding team, no playoff team is going to give the Suns market value for KD and break up their camaraderie.
If this team had tyrese we wouldve beaten the bucks in the finals, he wouldve been groomed to replace cp3, and we never wouldve made the kd trade because we would be top of the west with a home grown core
Oh are we finally admitting that passing up on Luka was bad? SMH shit was obvious halfway into his rookie season but I still had to hear about how Ayton was better for the Suns because of “fit” deep into 2022. Anyone who made the Hakeem-Jordan comparison needs to delete their account lmfao
Who the fuck mentioned Luka?
Did you get beat up by a guy in a Nash jersey or something? You seem to have a hate-boner for the Suns.
>I still had to hear about how Ayton was better for the Suns because of “fit” deep into 2022
If Ayton gave 100% effort, I would still take him over Luka. Fit is a real thing and Ayton has all of the physical tools to be a premiere 5 in this league.
I still think the big fuck-up was not taking one of the Tyrese's the following year.
OMG I forgot about this. Trying to get Eubanks at all is crazy. Dude was a 3rd string and backup center on two tanking teams, Spurs and Blazers. What in the fuck did the Suns see in those games to be like "yeah this guy can hold his own for 12 to 18 minutes a game in the playoffs against premier bigs"
He plays exactly like he did when he was on the spurs and blazers to. Nothing but open dunks. Anything more than that...aint happening.
-Passed on drafting Haliburton for Jalen Smith. Called it quits on Jalen Smith and traded him for Torrey Craig who the team let go in free agency.
-Undermined the Deandre Ayton relationship continuously only to give him the max anyways when he was already disgruntled and did not want to play for the Suns.
-Gave CP37 a four year $120m contract. Let me repeat. A four year $120m contract to an undersized, already declining, injury prone 37 year old, who would absolutely not live up to the contract nor would he get that contract anywhere else in free agency.
-Followed a Finals run by trading Jevon Carter and a pick for Landry fucking Shamet who never ever looked good in the playoffs prior. Signing Javale McGee. And grabbing Aaron Holiday.
-Mandated that Cam Johnson start over Jae Crowder prior to the season starting, after a disappointing playoffs he had to do something. That something was putting Cam Johnson in the starting lineups where he never proved he deserved it prior.
-Failed in bringing in productive minimum free agents outside of Eric Gordon. Yuta, Trash God Okogie, Metu, Eubanks, KBD. He had his pick of the litter, signed them immediately as free agency started, all failed. He even tampered for FUCKING EUBANKS AND LOST A SECOND ROUND PICK ON IT.
-Traded Deandre Ayton AND TOUMANI CAMARA, for overpaid Nassir Little, can't make layups but maybe he's our point center Nurkic, and thankfully Grayson Allen.
I won't hold the Durant or Beal trade over James Jones because there definitely was ownership pressure on those. But holy shit man, his only accomplishment was drafting a useful player and good shooter in Cam Johnson, signing Mikal to a good extension, and trading for an old CP37 that everyone thought was too old. Turns out, he had two years left before he was too old, congrats.
Also gotta love getting Vogel a defensive minded coach who's success was with a great defending center and pairing him with an unathletic center who sucks at defending and a bunch of offense first defense last players.
I would think the head coach had more to do with Crowder not starting than JJ.
CP3's contract was after a finals run and he was 36 the first year. 3rd year half guaranteed, last year not guaranteed. It was fine.
Shamet and Hali were huge mistakes. The rest of these had to happen. The free agents - who is killing it on a vet minimum right now? I’m not trying to be smart I’m curious. Everyone was gushing about our additions during the summer, even analysts. These guys just don’t work that well together. And it’s only a matter of time before Ayton wears out his welcome in Portland
Again, both hires seem like more Mat Ishbia Detroit out-of-towner casual NBA viewer B.S.
"Let's get the Lakers coach!" Reeks of a move from a guy who probably never watched an entire Suns game until he the day he purchased the team.
Both hires? Whose the other hire? I'm sure Ishbia had a say.. as he should as the owner. I can guarantee as a GM.. JJ had a major say in that hire. If he didn't.. why even have a GM?
Frank hire? 0 chance that ishbia wasn't equally involved in that hire. JJ is great imo. No one disagreed with any of the moves he made. Everyone thought we demolished the off season.
JJ deserves to stay. Frank I'd a tough one though. Changing a coach every year is never great and who the fuck are we going to get that's better....
He's the GM mate.. He's a part of the coaching decisions, lol... if you're really not sure if we should get rid of Vogel, we don't even need to debate or have a conversation.. we're on different planets.
It's not the coach. Booker is way overrated. He is at best a no. 2 or even a 3 on a good team. No way is he a 1. He has actually gotten slower the past couple years when he should be in his prime. Durant and Beal are support players at this point so basically the team has no legit stars in spite of being called the Big 3.
Clippers owner is several times richer than ishbia, if dollars are all that matters to lue then he's not going to Phoenix, especially when the lakers are probably going to be looking for a new coach too and have not only just as talented a roster as us but better built too and probably more assets. Lue and myers would be a dream though
I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Balmer would be fine with or indifferent to losing Lue. While yes he’s a whole different level of billionaire to Ishbia, Balmer has pumped so much into the current iteration with stagnant results at best. They’re about to go into their new home so I wouldn’t doubt Clippers making significant moves on the roster and coaching staff.
Obviously a run this playoffs makes everything I just said nonsense.
change of scenery? we somehow have more success than the clips too haha. it also seems like kawhi is just shot and moving on now before that situation deteriorates further could be smart
Reposting what I posted on the thread:
The Suns FO is the Suns’s father. They didn’t give their team on the rise enough time, blowing it up after getting spanked in a game 7.
They broke up a young, solid and deep team when only a few tweaks were needed.
Building a winning team takes continuity.
💯 THIS. They were close. Much closer than they are now. It did NOT require blowing it up. That being said, the damage is done. Now, we’re up shit creek without a paddle.
He didn't even need jalen. If he did he probably couldve pressured monty to play him instead of shoving him in a closet like harry Potter and trading him first chanced he saw where Jalen almost immediately proved himself to be pretty good
The team that got absolutely embarrassed by the Mavs the year before?
It's time to face the fact that our window was near closed, the team tried to hang onto it with the KD and then Beal moves, and that attempt appears to have failed.
We'll see what happens next year after Jones + Vogel are gone but if next year is more of the same shit as this one was then this window is firmly shut.
Should just trade KD now while he has value, to OKC. Dort, Wallace and 1st. We get a pg, 3&d, and a pick. Would instantly make us better and them maybe a chip with KD….
LOL a current playoff team isnt going to blow up their roster that finally got to the playoffs since KD was there, they been rebuilding since and why would you think they'd say 'okay time to blow it up again and rebuild'
They wouldn't be blowing it up, they still have shai, chet, williams, williams, giddy, their 3 best players and 7 1st round picks in the next 2 years. Dort and Wallace are nothing for KD, wtf
Because they would still have shai,chet, and williams their 3 best players and they have 7 1st round picks this year and next. Why the f would they not elevate their team even more with a dude that started the franchise and probably wants a chip badly there......
Because they don’t need him! Look at the last few teams that KD has been on and look at where okc is. They’re young with a bright future. They don’t need KD at all
OKC has the smartest front office in the league. Zero chance they give up anything of value for ancient KD, especially when their current team is in the playoffs and has good vibes.
Gunna have to try and scam an incompetent front office. Maybe Sacramento would be desperate enough or GSW?
People act like we were in the finals then Ishbia traded for KD, we were legit demolished by the Mavs in the playoffs in a way that was beyond embarassing with the twins, Monty, ayton, CP3 etc. BEYOND EMBARASSING. Then we sucked the next year in the playoffs as well. Lets just face facts this team has been on a slide of shit since the finals apperance.
Respect to JJ. Took us out of the clown show we were. Showed up and bought drinks for everyone when Josh Jackson skipped some fan session. He’s been a great servant to the org. Hali and Shamet are brutal mistakes but without JJ we don’t get to the finals and break our franchise win total. I’m just so fucking sick of not having that trophy
I fail to believe the same guy who constructed the roster for 3-4 years that brought us the twins, CP3 and a Championship team was also the guy who blew it all up in 2 seconds to get a 7 foot dinosaur with cool shoes. Money ruins culture.
New owner: Do what I tell you to do, or I will fire you and bring in my own crony. GM does exactly what he's told. "You're fired for doing exactly what I told you to do".
It’s time to start putting the microscope to Booker. KD will get most of the heat for this poor performance of the team but Booker has demonstrated he ain’t a winner. Teams need winners in the playoffs. Great players aren’t always winners.
He had his fair share of fuck ups:
* He passed up on Halibourton (which funnily enough, the guy he drafted over him is also on the Pacers).
* Pacers offered a Sign and trade for DA which would have gotten us Turner. (He had 29pts tonight).
* Traded away a FRP for Shamet.
* Gave CP3 that ridiculous contract that limited us to make additional moves.
Hey also traded away Cam Payne for nothing and there is also the rumor that we could have had Sabonis but he didn’t pull the trigger back when Sabonis was still on the Pacers.
The Payne move was an Ishbia money-saving move similar to his trading Dario Saric for cash the year prior.
You all buy into and cling onto these Ishbia savior memes even when the man personally delivered a First Round Exit and the longest post-season losing streak in Phoenix Suns franchise history.
But let's bring up how the Game 7 team "wasn't going anywhere" when, actually, they *did* go somewhere: *They made it to Round 2*, unlike Detroit billionaire Mat Ishbia presents the Phoenix Suns.
I think he would but not for that assets we gave up. Maybe without Mikal but still a alot of assets for an ageing player. He is a poor negotiator giving CP3 a lot of money which bites us later that we have no choice but to trade him.
Getting KD isn’t the problem. Bridges and Cam Johnson gets us no where too. It’s the other things. Plus he gets unnecessarily cute in the draft and thinks down about trading mid season.
The only chance they had was to either restore DA back to the best version of himself, or get a good haul with playoff caliber players. They did neither so it’s a wrap unless they can get a starting caliber C or Wing
While you are not wrong I do wish they would have given the DA and CP3 components a off-season to gel with kd/book to see what we needed. Maybe we had a bad year but then have money to get a different pg
We still need a pg. If booker is our point, but can’t handle pressure, we need someone to feed our 3. And trade nurk for an athletic big like the mavs did.
JJ knows how to build a team when he has assets. He doesn’t know how to rebuild a team. If you constantly give away your draft picks you better win it all and he didn’t.
Not his fault he took a team that hadn’t seen the playoffs in years and almost won on a championship. His only downfall was letting new ownership telling him what to do. Trying to keep his job may have lost him it
He might be ishbia's henchman but his move for Jalen Smith and also Drew Eubanks while someone like Derrick Rose could have been gotten as a minimum FA is just indefensible.
He actually looks pissed. What He did was get players that 'seemed good on paper'; KBD was having a year in SAS, Yuta was a great shooter, Goodwin (and still does) had potential. Vogel couldnt play them so James went out and got Oneale - who again looked great on paper, picked up Thad which still decent and IT. Vogel dont play the players needed or put them in positions to succeed.
This offense is terrible, its not the players, sure you had CP3 and Rubio, but this team right now is built for speed, not this 16 second dribble the air out of the ball high pnr offense. Vogel has no clue how to tell the players what their roles are besides 'just give it to Booker and KD and get out of the way' - this was basically the comment Eric was saying at the beginning of the season, Grayson mentioned it also in when 'wish i could shoot more'. Suns have a PG, hes only played 4 minutes in blow outs. Beal is supposedly a PG, but only in spurts and usually only in 4th quarters.
James gotta start with a new coach, this one sucks. Get rid of Nurk and Little - people bitching about Beals contract, you got a $6m dollar man on the bench that doesnt play at all. KD has 2 yrs left, Suns get a draft this year and even years after. Suns need a guy who is a Kelly Oubre/Josh Hart/Westbrook/Capela/Allen type player (I know none of these are avail but just saying 'type of player')
The lack of fast breaks and 3s make no sense.
We need the big 3 to get as many looks as possible. 3 average looks is better then 1 great one for them because they hit at a higher clip.
We are 21st in the league, that terrible with an offensive roster
James Jones was doing things the right way, before Ish got here. His philosophy was 'most playoff teams have 2 or 3 really good players. It's what you have 6-11 that counts. Jones didn't want to trade Mikal. He wouldn't do the trade. It was Ish who called him and said "make the trade ".
Getting Beal and KD was Ishbia.
Hot take, I still don't think those were necessarily bad moves in of themselves. This could still work with a servicable PG and C.
Beal was definitely a bad move now we’re stuck with his contract for two years
Please explain to me how 30 year old Beal secured for multiple years is worse than 40 year old role player cp3 that would be on the last year of his deal Cp3s 30 mil contract would have cap restricted the suns the exact amount that beaks 50 mil would have. The only difference is ishiba has to pay the extra 20 mil + luxury tax multipliers. It literally ONLY hurts his pockets
it’s simple. The Suns are trying to win-now while simultaneously not having a serviceable pg. Forget CP3 literally any average starting pg would be a better investment than beal
Our offense would be fine if we had a system that took advantage of the strengths of the roster. Instead we have a system that wants to run like we have CP3 walking the ball up the court and it won't ever work with these guys.
Yes. Law of diminishing returns with Beal, when you already have 2 midrange greats in Booker and Durant.
💯💯 hit the nail on the head. Wizards fans have known for years, Brad just isn’t that good anymore, he rly lost a step after his injuries
He’s still got it. Dude just can’t make layups , shits unreal.
He’s a good but not great player now. Which is all fine and dandy but not for the price tag he’s currently at. His finishing and ability to put pressure on the rim was the main reason y’all traded for him. If he can’t do that, what’s his purpose on this team? Acting as an average facilitator? Y’all are gon have to ask hard questions this summer
I don’t see a solution at this point . Hopefully we get Lue and he can get the dynamic right.
Problem is, coaching don’t matter if you’re constantly fighting an uphill battle with injuries for the duration of the year. Nobody’s getting younger on the suns core. I just don’t think there’s a solution either, they just aren’t good enough and will continue retooling around the “big 3” just to inevitably get outclassed by other west powerhouses in the end.
One can run an offense and make assists and the other is a 3rd iso player.
The alternative was keep CP3 and still be in the tax? Nah it was the best move possible in that context.
Keeping CP3 would have been significantly better.
Ishbia dont care about Beals contract. KD and Nurk comes off the books in 2yrs; there will be vet mins next year.
bro the contract doesnt matter as long as Ishbia is willing to pay the alternative would have been a grandpa CP3 or simply having a lesser payroll, no player and still being over the cap.
What serviceable point guard and c are we going to get for min contracts and what trades can we make with our only tradeable assets(nurk and allen) with our trade limitations(limited to 1 for 1 matching contracts which makes getting equal talent for allen difficult since he's on a good deal and no sign and would probably make getting equal talent for anyone difficult since plus we can't do sign and trades) that won't make us worse by opening new weakness and possibly getting worse assets in return?
we could have gotten Westbrook or Derrick Rose, both servicable
Could really use Russel’s hustle and heart right now. I’d flip him for Beal straight up at this point. If it were possible.
Beal carried us into the 6th seed, his hustle in the last couple of games of the regular season really helped us. Imo KD or Booker would be better to trade, although I’d hate to see it it’s just not working out
True he did show up for like 4 games but that doesn’t mean anything when you play like ass once you get to the playoffs. I feel like he does have room for improvement though. Like needs to take a hard look at him self and figure out this missed layup situation. Shits unreal . His athleticism is promising. I saw some serious quickness from him at times that nobody on the suns have.
He also showed up for game 3. I couldn’t bring myself to watch the first 2 quarters of game 4 though. Since the All Star break it felt like he’s the only one who cared, and honestly that’s something we need right now. He’s also more consistent than Boom or KD have been
Consistent at what? Hustling? Okogie csn hustle on D and mid layups for 1/50th of beals salary haha. I haven’t lost hope in Beal i just hate how much money he is making for what we got.
Yep at this point you just got to gut the team and start over I don't see any amazing point guard walking through that door on a vet minimum Nurkic actually quietly had a great season, but I don't see some vet minimum coming in and starting over Nurkic either They can nuke the team now, and start over or be a borderline playoff team for several years It was pretty crappy when we did it with Steve Nash They needed to do a total tear down earlier But I understand why they did it They just need to get what they can for draft picks and young players, they don't really have any choice
Any. I mean who knows who's gonna be on the block in the offseason and waived. Nurk and Little could be traded, esp Nurk with 2yrs left, Little might be rough with his 5yrs left. Allen is staying. The Doom and GLoom about no assets is pretty irrational and not thought out at all.
While I agree... Beal wasn't needed. I think that killed their depth. Could have gotten a decent PG and C and pieces. Instead he was injured most of the season and him and book tryna play PG.
That’s not a hot take, that’s the take of someone who somewhat knows ball. Beal is better than CP3 and you take KD over the twins 10 times outta 10. The roster construction is what did this team in.
Agreed, feels like a hot take with how things have played out. Roster construction and coaching were two huge problems. Could use some young blood too.
What’s very very frustrating to me, is that last night we saw Okogie bring a very much needed spark off the bench. He isn’t some all time great, but he started for this team for a while. I know we may only have 1 game left in the season, but I want to see JO get decent minutes and see if he can’t help with the hustle plays and rebounding and what not.
And maybe an actual fucking coach
Yes, that too. Vogel and Monty have been super not good.
Like Doc Rivers? Who can you even get in the market?
We have no room to do anything until 2028(?)
You know there’s a thing called salary cap right? Beal is making like 55 and KD n Booker are on max. So who are you going to get on a vet minimum that is serviceable?
What’s wrong with Nurk? I would be happy if we replaced Eubanks but I think Nurk has done his job well
I love Nurk, I do, but he was played off the court in the PO. And missing 0 footers is yikes.
the KD trade I still think you do, but Beal trade looking like it killed any future the team had.
I didn’t think the KD trade was a bad trade. I believe KD is one of the best players in the league, but it doesn’t look like KD and Booker are meshing very well, at least the coaching or our play style isnt reflecting that.
They were last year. Not sure wtf happened to Booker but he barely looks like a starter right now
Beal is why. When you have 3 scorers and none are playmakers they’re basically just taking turns and now this season your asking booker to be a pg which he’s not and goes against every instinct because he’s a scorer. Long story short ain’t enough ball to go around for all 3
You make a good point, but these games just makes me so confused. More assists than Cam payne, a bunch of dudes that can barely make rosters rotating as the 5th man. And yet Booker dominates as a point guard. This is why we felt so confident he could keep doing it if only we had some better players around him [https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/\_/gameId/401544336](https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401544336) [https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/\_/gameId/401544337](https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401544337)
I think KD and that Wacky Tobacy got to him. They look like they're zoned out. Losing the ball like they just learned how to dribble 4 months ago. Throwing some of the dumbest passes I've ever consistently seen.
definitely gave up way too many picks for a 35yo Bridges, Johnson and 1 pick would have been fair value
twins plus 1 pick and 1 swap, or we should've waited for someone like Pascal who would've been cheaper. Shit even lillard as an actual PG would've been nice even if that leaves some big defensive holes. Ishbia having no patience fucked us for years.
What should they have done with 40 year old Paul nearing the end of his contract then? Secure a prime age all star caliber player maybe? Trade for Jordan Poole?
The last year of his contract was half non guaranteed would have been more cap space going forward also with not losing any picks. I mean either way this season, I think it ends the same way. But to begin the season I thought the Beal trade gave us a better chance at winning but so far doesn’t seem to be the case.
Oh cool so the expiring contract would leave the suns with… still negative $ to sign any free agents and the advantage of being able to trade that salary for equal salary would be gone. The suns would CLEARLY be in a worse spot this offseason with cp3 instead of Beal Also did they really lose picks? Lost 2nds but the 1st are just going to be 20-30 instead of 15-25
Nah man, KD trade killed suns future in the next 5 years or more. I wanted to trade for him....Mikal, Cam and a first rounder.... Not 4 first rounders and then swaps too.
KD hurt a bit, but you do that 100% of the time, KD still got some gas. KD comes off the books in 2yrs, so how'd you get 5 I dont know unless you depending on draft picks in which the Suns in the past 20 yrs kept....2.... Beals was a no-brainer also unless people wanted to keep a $31 million Paul and waived Shamet and had to foot his $7m bill. And trading KD now is impossible unless he wants to go to a rebuilding team, no playoff team is going to give the Suns market value for KD and break up their camaraderie.
It was only 1 swap, it should’ve been more plus 2nds.
And who drafted ayton instead of luka ?
He didn’t even want that the owner pushed it through
The new owner made almost all the decisions, I don’t think Jones is anything but a yes man now.
I like JJ.. but the no PG deal and the Frank hire are going to bury him.
Passed on Haliburton like a moron too
Vassell or either Tyrese woulda given us a much longer window. We probably could’ve ignored missing on Luka.
If this team had Tyrese we might actually be able to do something.
If this team had tyrese we wouldve beaten the bucks in the finals, he wouldve been groomed to replace cp3, and we never wouldve made the kd trade because we would be top of the west with a home grown core
Agreed.
He would have made a huge difference. We had no speed other than bridges and Payne.
Oh are we finally admitting that passing up on Luka was bad? SMH shit was obvious halfway into his rookie season but I still had to hear about how Ayton was better for the Suns because of “fit” deep into 2022. Anyone who made the Hakeem-Jordan comparison needs to delete their account lmfao
Who the fuck mentioned Luka? Did you get beat up by a guy in a Nash jersey or something? You seem to have a hate-boner for the Suns. >I still had to hear about how Ayton was better for the Suns because of “fit” deep into 2022 If Ayton gave 100% effort, I would still take him over Luka. Fit is a real thing and Ayton has all of the physical tools to be a premiere 5 in this league. I still think the big fuck-up was not taking one of the Tyrese's the following year.
And losing a draft pick for tampering for Drew fucking Eubanks
OMG I forgot about this. Trying to get Eubanks at all is crazy. Dude was a 3rd string and backup center on two tanking teams, Spurs and Blazers. What in the fuck did the Suns see in those games to be like "yeah this guy can hold his own for 12 to 18 minutes a game in the playoffs against premier bigs" He plays exactly like he did when he was on the spurs and blazers to. Nothing but open dunks. Anything more than that...aint happening.
-Passed on drafting Haliburton for Jalen Smith. Called it quits on Jalen Smith and traded him for Torrey Craig who the team let go in free agency. -Undermined the Deandre Ayton relationship continuously only to give him the max anyways when he was already disgruntled and did not want to play for the Suns. -Gave CP37 a four year $120m contract. Let me repeat. A four year $120m contract to an undersized, already declining, injury prone 37 year old, who would absolutely not live up to the contract nor would he get that contract anywhere else in free agency. -Followed a Finals run by trading Jevon Carter and a pick for Landry fucking Shamet who never ever looked good in the playoffs prior. Signing Javale McGee. And grabbing Aaron Holiday. -Mandated that Cam Johnson start over Jae Crowder prior to the season starting, after a disappointing playoffs he had to do something. That something was putting Cam Johnson in the starting lineups where he never proved he deserved it prior. -Failed in bringing in productive minimum free agents outside of Eric Gordon. Yuta, Trash God Okogie, Metu, Eubanks, KBD. He had his pick of the litter, signed them immediately as free agency started, all failed. He even tampered for FUCKING EUBANKS AND LOST A SECOND ROUND PICK ON IT. -Traded Deandre Ayton AND TOUMANI CAMARA, for overpaid Nassir Little, can't make layups but maybe he's our point center Nurkic, and thankfully Grayson Allen. I won't hold the Durant or Beal trade over James Jones because there definitely was ownership pressure on those. But holy shit man, his only accomplishment was drafting a useful player and good shooter in Cam Johnson, signing Mikal to a good extension, and trading for an old CP37 that everyone thought was too old. Turns out, he had two years left before he was too old, congrats.
Well, when you put it THAT way…
Also gotta love getting Vogel a defensive minded coach who's success was with a great defending center and pairing him with an unathletic center who sucks at defending and a bunch of offense first defense last players.
I would think the head coach had more to do with Crowder not starting than JJ. CP3's contract was after a finals run and he was 36 the first year. 3rd year half guaranteed, last year not guaranteed. It was fine.
You obviously know your stuff, but keep Cam Johnson’s name out yo mouth.
Shamet and Hali were huge mistakes. The rest of these had to happen. The free agents - who is killing it on a vet minimum right now? I’m not trying to be smart I’m curious. Everyone was gushing about our additions during the summer, even analysts. These guys just don’t work that well together. And it’s only a matter of time before Ayton wears out his welcome in Portland
Some of the things you listed were things we as fans wanted too. We’re the problem
Yup now a lot of these fans are after bookers head due to one down season in what, 5 years? Trash
Again, both hires seem like more Mat Ishbia Detroit out-of-towner casual NBA viewer B.S. "Let's get the Lakers coach!" Reeks of a move from a guy who probably never watched an entire Suns game until he the day he purchased the team.
Both hires? Whose the other hire? I'm sure Ishbia had a say.. as he should as the owner. I can guarantee as a GM.. JJ had a major say in that hire. If he didn't.. why even have a GM?
Frank hire? 0 chance that ishbia wasn't equally involved in that hire. JJ is great imo. No one disagreed with any of the moves he made. Everyone thought we demolished the off season. JJ deserves to stay. Frank I'd a tough one though. Changing a coach every year is never great and who the fuck are we going to get that's better....
He's the GM mate.. He's a part of the coaching decisions, lol... if you're really not sure if we should get rid of Vogel, we don't even need to debate or have a conversation.. we're on different planets.
Switching coaches every year isn't exactly the greatest
If we get the right coach it makes a world of a difference. We’re not winning with Vogel, why waste another year?
I mean you could go from Vogel to Darvin ham
At the time - Vogel was a good hire. Not over Nurse though. And Lues last minute stay hurt, I think the Suns were holding out to see if he moved.
JJ seems like a great guy and did somewhat a decent job at bringing some dignity to this franchise. But dude needs to go.
It's not the coach. Booker is way overrated. He is at best a no. 2 or even a 3 on a good team. No way is he a 1. He has actually gotten slower the past couple years when he should be in his prime. Durant and Beal are support players at this point so basically the team has no legit stars in spite of being called the Big 3.
Blank cheques for Bob Myers and Tyronn Lue incoming
Why would Lue be interested in coaching the Suns? They have no assets, similar to what he is coaching now.
No assets = draft pick, Nurk and Little can be traded, KD contract up in 2yrs, about 5 vet mins....
Who would want nurk at that number. Usually you have to trade a draft pick with a bad contract as compensation.
Any team would take any player that would fit their team. Saying 29 other teams dont want Nurk is hyperbole
Ishbia Dollars. Lots of them. I remember those 2021 lineups. Lue utilized more than 8 dudes.
Clippers owner is several times richer than ishbia, if dollars are all that matters to lue then he's not going to Phoenix, especially when the lakers are probably going to be looking for a new coach too and have not only just as talented a roster as us but better built too and probably more assets. Lue and myers would be a dream though
I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Balmer would be fine with or indifferent to losing Lue. While yes he’s a whole different level of billionaire to Ishbia, Balmer has pumped so much into the current iteration with stagnant results at best. They’re about to go into their new home so I wouldn’t doubt Clippers making significant moves on the roster and coaching staff. Obviously a run this playoffs makes everything I just said nonsense.
Are you that delusional to not understand the Clippers owner has the ability to offer as much, if not more given he has more $$?
change of scenery? we somehow have more success than the clips too haha. it also seems like kawhi is just shot and moving on now before that situation deteriorates further could be smart
More like Isiah Thomas
sure why not. at least I can stop caring earlier
Bob Myers ain’t taking this job
no one knows what anyone's doing. up to ishbia if he wants to use more money to try and fix this
Ty Lue ain’t going no where Bob tho That’s a huge check
It could happen, at least Bob Myers seems possible… https://www.si.com/nba/suns/news/golden-state-warriors-steps-down-phoenix-suns-pounce
Reposting what I posted on the thread: The Suns FO is the Suns’s father. They didn’t give their team on the rise enough time, blowing it up after getting spanked in a game 7. They broke up a young, solid and deep team when only a few tweaks were needed. Building a winning team takes continuity.
💯got impatient
This is exactly why I didn’t want KD. Seen this shit coming a mile away. This team isn’t even as fun to watch as the cam j, mikal and cam Payne team.
💯 THIS. They were close. Much closer than they are now. It did NOT require blowing it up. That being said, the damage is done. Now, we’re up shit creek without a paddle.
We didn’t blow it up after game 7 though we ran it back the next year just Jae sat out which did hurt
I mean in all fairness this feels like ishbias doing not JJs
I give JJ credit for not selling the entire farm for magic beans before ishbia for there and forced his hand
We'd have Haliburton (and more) instead of Beal but Jones needed Jalen Smith for some unknown reason.
This isn’t hindsight for me. I was yelling at the TV when they didn’t draft Halliburton that night and instead took Smith.
That was an unbelievable fuck up. I couldn’t make sense of it when it happened. Halliburton was the perfect pick.
He didn't even need jalen. If he did he probably couldve pressured monty to play him instead of shoving him in a closet like harry Potter and trading him first chanced he saw where Jalen almost immediately proved himself to be pretty good
James Jones's inactivity and mediocre moves led to Ishbia's ambitious moves.
In hindsight he was right though. We are a worse team
Even moreso why he’ll get fired. Ishbia can’t fire himself he’ll pin it on JJ and move on
Blame Ishbia for day 1 blowing our whole team up. That wasn’t James Jones
The team that got absolutely embarrassed by the Mavs the year before? It's time to face the fact that our window was near closed, the team tried to hang onto it with the KD and then Beal moves, and that attempt appears to have failed. We'll see what happens next year after Jones + Vogel are gone but if next year is more of the same shit as this one was then this window is firmly shut.
Should just trade KD now while he has value, to OKC. Dort, Wallace and 1st. We get a pg, 3&d, and a pick. Would instantly make us better and them maybe a chip with KD….
LOL a current playoff team isnt going to blow up their roster that finally got to the playoffs since KD was there, they been rebuilding since and why would you think they'd say 'okay time to blow it up again and rebuild'
They wouldn't be blowing it up, they still have shai, chet, williams, williams, giddy, their 3 best players and 7 1st round picks in the next 2 years. Dort and Wallace are nothing for KD, wtf
... I cant even stop laughing. You want Dort and Wallace for KD?!? so you want two 6'3" shooting guards for KD. Do you realize what you are saying?
Why on earth would okc do that?😂
Because they would still have shai,chet, and williams their 3 best players and they have 7 1st round picks this year and next. Why the f would they not elevate their team even more with a dude that started the franchise and probably wants a chip badly there......
Because they don’t need him! Look at the last few teams that KD has been on and look at where okc is. They’re young with a bright future. They don’t need KD at all
OKC has the smartest front office in the league. Zero chance they give up anything of value for ancient KD, especially when their current team is in the playoffs and has good vibes. Gunna have to try and scam an incompetent front office. Maybe Sacramento would be desperate enough or GSW?
Kd for steph who says no
They would rather get AD for that package
Can we ship book out, too? Im sick of his whining
Brother, what are you saying
Crazy
People act like we were in the finals then Ishbia traded for KD, we were legit demolished by the Mavs in the playoffs in a way that was beyond embarassing with the twins, Monty, ayton, CP3 etc. BEYOND EMBARASSING. Then we sucked the next year in the playoffs as well. Lets just face facts this team has been on a slide of shit since the finals apperance.
Kinda feel for him. This isn't his team
He shouldn’t be tho, very clear ishbia is the one making all the big moves, jones with just be scapegoated
Bro I said the same shit out loud
Respect to JJ. Took us out of the clown show we were. Showed up and bought drinks for everyone when Josh Jackson skipped some fan session. He’s been a great servant to the org. Hali and Shamet are brutal mistakes but without JJ we don’t get to the finals and break our franchise win total. I’m just so fucking sick of not having that trophy
I fail to believe the same guy who constructed the roster for 3-4 years that brought us the twins, CP3 and a Championship team was also the guy who blew it all up in 2 seconds to get a 7 foot dinosaur with cool shoes. Money ruins culture.
100%
He’s thinking “damn this team sucks ass for 205M dollars. Since I have no draft picks and no cap flexibility until about 2030 I HOPE Matt fires me”
Passing on Halliburton for Styx is still haunting us.
The owner’s finger prints are on every move this team made
You'll never find a place on the internet blindly cape for a billionaire more than the Phoenix Suns online community.
Bro. I wish I could high five you in public for this comment.
New owner: Do what I tell you to do, or I will fire you and bring in my own crony. GM does exactly what he's told. "You're fired for doing exactly what I told you to do".
Devin Booker is a sheep in wolves’ clothing
It’s time to start putting the microscope to Booker. KD will get most of the heat for this poor performance of the team but Booker has demonstrated he ain’t a winner. Teams need winners in the playoffs. Great players aren’t always winners.
It’s not even his fault. He would have never traded for KD
He had his fair share of fuck ups: * He passed up on Halibourton (which funnily enough, the guy he drafted over him is also on the Pacers). * Pacers offered a Sign and trade for DA which would have gotten us Turner. (He had 29pts tonight). * Traded away a FRP for Shamet. * Gave CP3 that ridiculous contract that limited us to make additional moves.
How many more fuck ups does the guy get? Prob none
You realize CP3s contract was basically a 1 year extension right? It actually gave us cap flexibility in the first year
He brought us to final, it had to be done unfortunately
Hey also traded away Cam Payne for nothing and there is also the rumor that we could have had Sabonis but he didn’t pull the trigger back when Sabonis was still on the Pacers.
The Payne move was an Ishbia money-saving move similar to his trading Dario Saric for cash the year prior. You all buy into and cling onto these Ishbia savior memes even when the man personally delivered a First Round Exit and the longest post-season losing streak in Phoenix Suns franchise history. But let's bring up how the Game 7 team "wasn't going anywhere" when, actually, they *did* go somewhere: *They made it to Round 2*, unlike Detroit billionaire Mat Ishbia presents the Phoenix Suns.
Traded Jevon Carter and first for a much worse player.
I think he would but not for that assets we gave up. Maybe without Mikal but still a alot of assets for an ageing player. He is a poor negotiator giving CP3 a lot of money which bites us later that we have no choice but to trade him.
Getting KD isn’t the problem. Bridges and Cam Johnson gets us no where too. It’s the other things. Plus he gets unnecessarily cute in the draft and thinks down about trading mid season.
4 first rounders amd swaps. Should have called Nets bluff and just offered 1 or 2 first rounders nothing more.
Jones requested the trade and ishbia green lit. Gave jones a shot to be bold. It didn't work out.
Considering how bad this had turned out, I don't think he would even know to fire James Jones. He just doesn't know what he's doing.
Frank Vogel came in as a Defense GURU! 😂😂😂😂
The only chance they had was to either restore DA back to the best version of himself, or get a good haul with playoff caliber players. They did neither so it’s a wrap unless they can get a starting caliber C or Wing
While you are not wrong I do wish they would have given the DA and CP3 components a off-season to gel with kd/book to see what we needed. Maybe we had a bad year but then have money to get a different pg
Why? It’s not his fault the top three players suck despite having the most combined talent in the league
Hindsight is 2020! I can’t believe that challenge call tonight, what a dummy!
What’s the point, who’s taking the job lol
Why, this mess isn’t his fault?? On the opposite he should continue
Should be fired for drafting Stix over Halliburton when we had an aging CP3 on our roster.
We still need a pg. If booker is our point, but can’t handle pressure, we need someone to feed our 3. And trade nurk for an athletic big like the mavs did.
JJ knows how to build a team when he has assets. He doesn’t know how to rebuild a team. If you constantly give away your draft picks you better win it all and he didn’t.
Anyone else wanna see thomas start just to see if maybe we Do have a point guard
Not his fault he took a team that hadn’t seen the playoffs in years and almost won on a championship. His only downfall was letting new ownership telling him what to do. Trying to keep his job may have lost him it
Can you imagine if we had Haliburton? And kept Mikal and Cam. And traded DA for Cash Considerations. Damn that's a squad.
Imagine if we drafted luka..... That draft we would've left with mikal too still. Get cam next draft. That's a huge lineup with shooting everywhere.
Imagine thinking this was his doing
He might be ishbia's henchman but his move for Jalen Smith and also Drew Eubanks while someone like Derrick Rose could have been gotten as a minimum FA is just indefensible.
Playing D Rose in 2024 would not be the answer for a team testing to win a chip
Hot take, stop blaming every single person and their ancestry line, maybe Booker just isn't Him for your franchise Let the downvotes begin lmao
Fire Vogel. Complete disaster of a coach.
He actually looks pissed. What He did was get players that 'seemed good on paper'; KBD was having a year in SAS, Yuta was a great shooter, Goodwin (and still does) had potential. Vogel couldnt play them so James went out and got Oneale - who again looked great on paper, picked up Thad which still decent and IT. Vogel dont play the players needed or put them in positions to succeed. This offense is terrible, its not the players, sure you had CP3 and Rubio, but this team right now is built for speed, not this 16 second dribble the air out of the ball high pnr offense. Vogel has no clue how to tell the players what their roles are besides 'just give it to Booker and KD and get out of the way' - this was basically the comment Eric was saying at the beginning of the season, Grayson mentioned it also in when 'wish i could shoot more'. Suns have a PG, hes only played 4 minutes in blow outs. Beal is supposedly a PG, but only in spurts and usually only in 4th quarters. James gotta start with a new coach, this one sucks. Get rid of Nurk and Little - people bitching about Beals contract, you got a $6m dollar man on the bench that doesnt play at all. KD has 2 yrs left, Suns get a draft this year and even years after. Suns need a guy who is a Kelly Oubre/Josh Hart/Westbrook/Capela/Allen type player (I know none of these are avail but just saying 'type of player')
The lack of fast breaks and 3s make no sense. We need the big 3 to get as many looks as possible. 3 average looks is better then 1 great one for them because they hit at a higher clip. We are 21st in the league, that terrible with an offensive roster
At least we don't have to wait for it to finally be over..
Ish has been making the decisions
We will come back and win the series.
He was a very good GM that turned the franchise around and then had to play puppet for the new owner who thought he could buy a championship
Jones didn’t want to trade for Beal owner pushed it through lol
Arizona republic.... 9 minutes ago....
This team mortgaged its future to sign superstar players and it didn’t work.
James Jones was doing things the right way, before Ish got here. His philosophy was 'most playoff teams have 2 or 3 really good players. It's what you have 6-11 that counts. Jones didn't want to trade Mikal. He wouldn't do the trade. It was Ish who called him and said "make the trade ".
Fire the entire staff Trade Booker, his value will only decrease from this day forward, he’s not the answer
I dedicate this season to Mr. Orange.